Supporting Demand Avoidant Learners in the Classroom - Webinar Recording

supporting demand avoidant learners in your classroom. So today's session is very specifically about children who are struggling with demands placed on them uh within the setting of the classroom. So thinking about it from the point of view of teachers, teaching assistants and other support staff though I appreciate we have a whole range of different people who may have come along today looking for tips and ideas but the classroom is the focus for today. Um, one little word on language. So, demand avoidant is the term I have chosen to use today. You might be more familiar with the term PDA or pathological demand avoidance. I hate that. It feels very uh clinical deficitled pathizing and also perhaps something we only think of in the extremes. Whereas demand avoidant, a child who struggles when demands are placed on them is something we'll see of loads of our learners. So lots of learners who struggle with anxiety or who are neurode divergent will struggle sometimes with demands and might appear a little defiant in those moments. Um so just a couple of pointers on this. So avoidance might look like defiance. So a child who's struggling with demands might feel like they're just not doing as they're told which can be difficult when you've got a class of 30 kids and things that need to happen. Um, and one of the things that will typically [laughter] happen in a classroom scenario here is that we give consequences. If children don't do as they're told in class, if they don't do as demanded, then we will uh put consequences in place. The challenge with this is it tends to increase the overload um on our demand avoidant children who are at the end of the day essentially just anxious. Um the root of demand avoidance going deep here. We're not meant to be going deep. It's a very brief session, but the root of demand avoidance very very briefly is anxiety for most children. So the world is a confusing, complicated, challenging place. Uh maybe because I'm neurode divergent, maybe because I'm very anxious, maybe because I'm trauma experience, but basically the world is scary and difficult and unpredictable. I try to make it as predictable as I can by taking control of the world. When you place demands on me, then that takes away my control and that freaks me out. And so I am resistant to those demands. Okay, that's the the nub of what's going on with our demand avoidant children. They're scared, they're anxious, they're trying to take control, you're wrestling it away by placing demands on them. So, when we tell a child what to do in class because we've got stuff that needs to happen and they say no or they just don't get on with it and we tell them off or we put other consequences in place, we're just increasing the demand which just increases the problem which means we're more likely to see what looks like defiance. So, we're going to think this afternoon about seven strategies for managing this scenario rather than this two and fro which just tends to escalate and end in no joy, no learning for either of you, we're going to think what else we can do instead. Okay, so number one, number one, first of all, just a reframe. So the first thing is instead of seeing this child who is not doing as you need or want in your classroom right now, instead of seeing that as defiance, we're going to start thinking about that as demand overload. So just a simple reframing. Okay, this is a child who has too many demands placed on them right now. So this avoidance, not doing as they're asked is going to signal an overdrawn demand account. They are not being defiant. They're not being purposefully difficult, naughty, any of those challenging words. They're just overwhelmed. Too many demands have been placed on them and they're not managing anymore. We can all get to this moment. Sometimes it just happens quicker for some people than others. So, the demand account, I like to think of this as like a piggy bank, like a you know, like an account that we're trying to keep in balance. every interaction, every instruction, every expectation that we have in a child is going to make a withdrawal from that demand account. So, we're paying out all the time. There's so many demands in class constantly. Um, and what happens is that that account becomes overdrawn. Tiny little thing here. I did a little reel on this on my Instagram this week. Even praise can feel like a demand for these kids because when we praise a child um then it can feel like we're placing an expectation on them to behave like that way in future. So we just need to be a little bit careful even about our praise. Um and we might instead just notice what's gone well rather than placing an expectation. You're really good at maths. We'd instead want to say looks like you tried really hard to persevere with that problem. like pick it apart rather than make it an expectation that we're going to behave that way. So, we're going to reframe. We're going to stop thinking about this as defiance and we're going to start thinking about it as demand overload. That is tip number one. And if you just take that away from today and you start seeing children as okay, they're not defiant. Maybe there's just too many demands being placed on them right now. What can I begin to lose? What demands can I take away? that in and of itself will make a difference. So, we could stop there, but we won't. We have six other tips to get through. So, number two is to create low demand zones. Okay. So, the key principle here is we're going to have specific times or spaces or sometimes faces people where there are just no requirements to produce or perform. There are no expectations on the child. No demands. Not just low demands, no demands. So this means that the child knows that there are some times or some places or some people with whom there are no expectations. So they're able to kind of take a bit of a time out from all those pressures that feel like they're building up all the time. That gives them a little bit of the possibility of release and that kind of nervous system recovery. remembering that what we've got basically here is a very anxious, stressed child who needs the opportunity just sometimes to just take a breath, calm down, and then maybe we're able to continue. Okay. So, what this is going to look like in practice, you'll have your own ideas here how you can do this, but some things that have worked well in other schools and settings include morning arrival. So, it might be that when kids arrive in your class, it's just 10 minutes when we don't have expectations on them. we um are going to just allow them to do whatever it is that they need to do in order to get ready for learning or get ready for the first activity of the day. We might have a library corner that children can go away to a little nook, a little nice space, but they're able to go to where again there's no demands. Um it might be that that's a particular place. It might be that at particular times they're able to go there and no one has expectations on the child at that time or in that space. You might have a whole room um a space that children are able to go to your learning resource center um or particular staff who might kind of have um quiet calm um office space or you'll you'll have ideas within your uh setting what works and that that that's available to a child at particular times um uh without a need for them to like explain why they need it. that that places demands on the child, but just that they're able to, you know, request this time out, go to this person, go to this place, and then have no demands just for a little while. Often doesn't take long, just a little, you know, just a moment where nobody needs anything. And just to try and understand like the the psychology of this, like in a way that maybe all of us can understand. I'm sure lots of you uh in the Zoom here um are parents. Um, and you know that thing where you just got like demands from people all the time, like you've been at school all day and then you go home and there's demands from your children and sometimes you just I don't know just need to take a time out for yourself. I remember sorry Lyra. Lyra's here in the room and she's wonderful. Best daughter in the world ever. Joint best daughter. Sorry. She has a sister. Um, [clears throat] and um but but when when my children were small and so they're both the same age. It was quite demanding. um when they were small sometimes I'd just like go to the toilet not because I needed a wee but because sometimes that was just the place where there were fewer demands um just for a moment you know we just need that little time out and then you feel more able to continue and manage it's the same same for children who struggle with demands of others um and then also like break time so actually at break time it might be that for some children just having space no expectations to play or do or be in any particular way can be really helpful as an aside sometimes times. I'm very specifically encouraging you to think about break times uh and and whether you can put in place structured activities because some children or autistic kids in particular can really struggle with unstructured time. So this is about recognizing different needs of different children and different possibilities uh depending on what kids need at a particular time. But our demand avoidant children just might really welcome the opportunity to just step out, get on with things in their own way. Now, what's really helpful here is this if this is predictable, they know where they can go and when. Um that they're not going to be expected to explain this. That they don't have to earn this opportunity. This is like a preventative strategy when things begin to feel a bit overwhelming. I mean that it's genuinely demand-free. It's not like you can go to this space and there's no demands as long as XY Z. This is just genuinely you do you. You have some space here until things feel bit more manageable. So essentially, time out. Uh yeah, low demand zones, no demand zones. Okay. Number three, strategy number three is to be boringly predictable. So back to my old chestnut that I come back to again and again and again, boring in a good way. This is what we're looking for here. So when we do this, we make the world feel less demanding for our demand avoidant children because being unpredictable kind of creates demands. They're like having to try and understand us and second guessess us. But if we just kind of make things a bit boring, a bit predictable, say the same thing in the same way with the same tone at the same place each time, they know what to expect. And that just kind of reduces that feeling of demand, reducing reduces the anxiety of the unpredictability of the world. So the world just feeling unpredictable, not knowing what's going to happen when I turn up today, just creates those spikes in anxiety that are so tricky for these kids. Boring in a good way removes a lot of that for them. So what you going to do here? Choose your greeting and stick with it. Just greet the kids in the same way each day. Um same word, same tone, same energy each and every day. And yeah, it sounds really boring, but for some kids that boring just showing up for them in a consistent way every day is so super super helpful. Um, each time you do it in a different way, they got to process it all over again and respond to that. So just predictable and calm and that's kind of easy for you. That gives you a bit of a script to work to. You don't have to do that with all the children all the time. Some of them might like it when you're a bit zany and different or whatever. But for for these kids um that that are struggling with these demands, just predictable is good. You know, you can start to push the edges a little bit later when you've really settled in and things feel a bit more possible maybe, but just a little bit of predictability goes a really long way. So when you become predictable, you're going to feel really safe and you'll feel like a little bit of restbite in perhaps a challenging and unpredictable day for them. If they know that when they come to your class, your area, your bit of the day, that you're going to greet them in the same way and things are going to be boring in a good way, that feels safe, okay? They know there's no surprises here and they can actually just take a little bit of a breather. They're not having to use loads of anxious energy trying to guess and predict what's going to happen next. So yeah, the kind of little thing for you to think about here and maybe this is something you could discuss in a team meeting is just how could you be a little bit more predictable for the children that will respond well to adults who are boring in a good way. Lyra and I do this for what it's worth, don't we, Lyra? Boring in a good way. We've maybe never like specifically talked about it, but so for example, um on a Friday, Lyra and I have our little routine. Um Friday is the end of the week. Lyra will have had a challenging uh week at school. School takes a lot out of her. Um and then um you have therapy on a Friday, don't you lie? And we just kind of do this in the same way each week. We have similar conversations in the car. We have our little routine of hot chocolate and watching a bit of Grey's Anatomy when we get home and we just run through boring in a good way because actually that's what we both need at the end of a busy week. And it removes demands from like you know thinking what are we going to do? How's that going to be? It just takes it all away. Boring in a good way. >> We don't have to think about what we're going to do. We just know. >> We just know. And we both like that, don't we? And that's the thing. I would say as a parent I used to worry about this. I was like, "Oh, you know, I should be doing more, putting in more effort, doing different things at this time." And sometimes when we're we're together and we've got that quality time, we'll choose to do different things and we might plan it ahead. But most of the time, what both of us want more than anything is that predictability, that routine, knowing that we've got this precious little time in the week when we can just do things in the same way. Okay. Number four, for how we support our demand avoidant learners in our classroom, we're going to remove writing demands first. So, when we're thinking about how to lower the demand, writing is the first one that I would drop. And Lyra might have words to say on this one, too. So, writing, writing's really hard, okay? Writing places loads of demands on our learners. They've got motor planning. They've got a language process, loads of executive function going on there. So, thinking, planning, organizing, managing, and a pressure, you know, performance pressure. So, there's just loads. You could probably add more to that list, but basically writing is is is a complex, challenging, high load task. Um, and so when we're looking to reduce demands, if we've got a learner who appears to be a bit defiant, overloaded with demands, drop the writing would be the place that I would generally start. Um, okay. So, what happens then? You've got a learner who either you've given permission not to write or who has said, "I'm not writing." What do we do? There's loads of things that we can do. It is not necessary for our learners to always be writing in order for them to be learning and engaging. So, it could be that you as the teacher or the member of support staff could write it down for them. It might be that they use a different method. Maybe they prefer to draw or maybe they're going to voice record or they're going to type. Um, or perhaps they're just going to talk through their ideas with a partner. I don't know if you wanted to say anything, Lyra, about writing because this was a really big one for you, wasn't it? Yeah, I basically just wouldn't write anything if I had to write it by paper. Um but then my school let me start typing everything and I was completely fine and I was able to actually um I mean with some planning and support beforehand but I was able to like participate normally if you will um when I hadn't written anything well in year seven I hadn't written anything until Christmas when they finally let me type. So >> yeah, and you said I mean there's loads of different things that are going on here, but you always talked about how with typing it felt uh more possible because um you can delete things and change them whereas on paper like I mean you can cross things out but I don't know it's a lot more like it feels a lot more permanent when it's on paper. >> Yeah. So >> I think that's why I always liked whiteboards as well. Like I much prefer planning on a whiteboard than I would on paper for the same reason. So there you go. Lara's tips. Allow children to type. Allow them to use a whiteboard. This can be less scary. So if you do want them to write, maybe try the whiteboard. It feels a little bit less scary, perhaps a little bit less permanent. We can rub it out um than writing on paper. And when we home educated, actually, we did loads on whiteboards, didn't we? We would write stuff down and get and get rid of it. And for your sister as well. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. And so a key principle to remember here um you have not lowered your expectations. You've actually just removed a barrier to learning. So one of the push backs I'll get on this kind of idea of like don't make them right is well we we're just you know we we're we're lowering our expectations. We're making it that we're not expecting so much of this child. We're you know it's not appropriate. But actually I would say you've removed a barrier for learning. Um yeah Lyra was a really good example of this. She literally didn't write anything. no English report for her that term because she hadn't written a word in class. Um she was allowed to start typing and suddenly we were able to see that she could write. Okay, number five of seven. Just so if you're wondering how far we are through number five of seven is using I'm just going to declarations. So this is instead of um giving instructions to a child about what you're going to do, you just basically narrate just talk out loud about the things that you're going to do. So you make it indirect language. So you're going to keep moving things forwards um without the direct um language. So instead of for example um telling them to come and sit on the carpet, you might just say, "I'm going to start the story now and move towards the carpet." Instead of put your book away, I'm tidying up the books or show me your work. I'm having a look at what people have done. So, what you're looking for here, and you'll find what feels comfortable for you, is trying to take what feels like very direct and quite demanding language and trying to rephrase that as something that's just more a narration of what you need to happen next. And what we'll often find is that the child will then begin to cooperate. So, we're kind of just describing, narrating what we're doing. And many children, they they want to cooperate. And once it stops being a direct demand, a direct expectation of them, but they can choose to to join in, they'll often make the choice to join in, which sounds unlikely, but try it and you will often find it really does make a remarkable difference, you know, and and and anyone who's watching who's thinking about, well, how do I use this at home? and found things like really basic stuff like with um my girls instead of saying, you know, put your shoes on, just saying, "Oh, I'm I'm going to grab my coat and shoes now. I'm heading out." Um and sometimes I Yeah, I may be a slightly harsh parent here, but like if we're going to the cinema, for example, I'll let the girls know, you know, well, we need to leave at 4. Um I'm going to grab my coat and shoes now. Um and I will be leaving at 4. And if it gets to past 4 and they're not ready, I just go. Um Lara's laughing there. I I really will. Um, and that's not meant in any awful way. It's just I've made a really, you know, made it really clear what I'm doing and they're welcome to join me if they want to. And they usually do sometimes hurrying down the street in order not to miss the opportunity to drop in at the sweet shop. Particularly for your sister, right? So yeah, we describe our actions and just create an opportunity for the child to cooperate rather than telling them what to do is the is the idea here. So narrating can work well for some children. Idea number six is to build in some processing time. Um so um just giving our children time to think about what might need to happen next. So transitions and the taking on board of information um can be quite challenging for these children. Um and so what we need to do here is just provide some information and then just give them space. So whilst the child is processing what's needed from them, while they're processing an instruction or an idea about what's going to happen next, if we're watching them, that kind of places a demand all of its own. So just being watched. I mean, loads of us hate being watched while we're doing things, right? I think that's quite a a natural thing that I don't know like if you're typing and someone's watching you typing, you suddenly find I don't remember where the keys are. Or like I had this yesterday. I was making dinner and I was chopping and I suddenly felt like my partner was watching me quite intensely and I become very [clears throat] conscious of how I chop onions and is this the normal way just rather not be watched. Most of us would rather not be watched. So we step away. Um but it also gives the child time to process um and decide what they're going to do next and feel in control of the scenario. So what does that actually look like? So particularly for things like transitions which can be really hard moving between tasks give the information. And so in 5 minutes we'll be moving to maths. In an ideal world cuz loads of these children are going to be neurode divergent. Externalize the keeping of time. We're rubbish with time. We are not good at knowing how long has gone by. So if you can put a timer on the board of some kind or there's a, you know, a timer at home. I'll use a time on a phone sometimes. Um in my presentations I always have something counting down. We might have a stand timer. externalize the keeping of time if you can because many of these kids just won't have an idea whether 10 seconds or an hour has gone past and I I have this problem as an adult too. Um but yeah, so give the give the information and then just just move away. Go do something else rather than breathing down their neck, repeating what needs to happen. You might have written down what needs to happen on the boards if they're going to struggle to keep that in their working memory, but just give the information and then move away and just trust them to be able to get on with it. And what you're going to find then is loads of children will begin to naturally make that transition, begin to join in with the task when the pressure comes off. So it's about removing that pressure. So we're looking for the opposite of demands, which is just removing that pressure and they'll often choose to join in. And then finally, number seven, we can offer to come back. So making that offer of I'll come back when you need me can really help here. So if we find that a child begins to resist, begins to kind of feel like they're being a bit defiant, that you know, things are beginning to get a bit challenging here, actually the first thing we can do to be really helpful here is just to step away. We're not going to negotiate. We're not going to explain. All of this adds additional demands. Just language, exchange of words can place additional demand on the child. So actually just removing ourself can be really helpful. So we're just going to let the child know, narrate our actions. I'm going to come back in a few minutes. I'm just going to go and sort something out over here. We'll have a think about it. No rush. One things I often did with my girls um when we were learning at home was just to be quietly there. So rather than even making it like I'm here if you need me, just being kind of in the room knitting, getting on with my own work or whatever. So if they choose to engage with me or need my help with the task, I'm there um if I need them, but not placing pressure on them. They know I'm getting on with my own thing. But what I would say here is it needs to be an interruptable task. Um so the child doesn't feel they're placing demands on you because you might have a very sensitive child like Lyra for example who wouldn't want to interrupt me in my work but she'd know that you know if I'm knitting if I get to the end of the row then it's probably fine to interrupt her. If I'm cleaning nearby that's eminently interruptible. So we're going to say calmly and then leave without waiting for a response because the need for a response is a demand. So I'll be back in a few minutes. So what happens here? Um, when we spot these early early signs of demand overload, the child begins to seem defiant, which we now know from principle one is demand overload. The fastest and quickest intervention and often the most effective is just reducing our presence rather than increasing our support. So, it can feel counterintuitive when a child begins to seem to be struggling. Sometimes we want to step in closer, do more, but actually what some of these kids need is actually for us to step away. Just give them that space to process. Give them that space to command to to to to calm um and allow the feeling of demand to drop. Remembering that just our presence and any conversation can feel like a demand in itself. Okay. So, we had seven quick wins there and I just want you to have a little think in the chat um about um whether you might use any of these or if you've got any ideas to add any of these that have worked for you in the past. just do share anything great in the chat because other people can read it and learn from it too. Um and then um we will have time for questions in a minute. So our quick wins recap. So reframing demand as overload not defiance. So we're thinking here about the fact that this child might appear defiant, difficult, naughty, bad, all the horrible words, but actually this is just a child who has too many demands placed on them right now. And when we start to see it through that lens, it becomes obvious what we might need to do next. Reduce demands. Number two was to create low demand zones, places, people, times at which the child has absolutely no demands at all. No expectations placed on them. There's no need for them to explain their need for the use of this space. They're just allowed to do it, ideally as a preventative measure as they begin to feel things escalate. We're going to be boring in a good way. Being boringly predictable reduces demands on the child because they're not having to second guessess who's turning up for them today. They know exactly what we're going to say, how we're going to say it, when, where, etc. Number four was to remove the demand of writing as the first demand that we remove because there are so many demands inherent in [clears throat] the task of writing. So that's a really good one to drop early on. Number five was I'm just going to So we're going to narrate what we're doing rather than telling a child to go and do the thing. We're going to tell them, I'm going to go and do this and give them the opportunity to join. I'm going to go and start story time on the carpet now rather than please go to the carpet. Number six was to build in processing time, allowing the child to have a think about what's been said, removing ourselves uh from them so that they can have a think about what needs to happen next without our presence feeling like a demand. And number seven is to offer I'll come back. So actually giving them that space knowing that you will return in a few minutes should they need you to but stepping away for now to give them the space that they might need. Okay. So if you want to download the slides and the notes they are already sitting uh on my blog should you wish them um which is pukynitemith.com um onnext you can find links to all sorts of things. You can subscribe to my weekly newsletter um where you'll get uh resources shared every Sunday evening. Uh you can sign up to my Patreon which will mean you'll get emails a couple of times a week with my new resources which are all free to access. So some people do choose to uh pay to be a member and support me that way which is incredibly kind. Um or you can follow me at PH on Instagram where I try to share little short videos uh and explainers about many many things to do with neurody divergence, mental health and other stuff.