Strava Founder: How I Motivated 100 Million People To Stay Active: Michael Horvath | E148

We have reprogrammed our lives to be remote. And so, we are stuck in patterns that are really difficult to get out of. I actually feel I don't know if I'm going to get cancelled for this, but I think that um Michael Horvath, the CEO and co-founder of Strava with over 76 million athletes. You track your activities, turn those activities into a post, that's when the Strava magic happens. If you want to be as good as you possibly can be, you have to strive to be the best. But can you be okay also with not actually achieving the goal of being the top of everybody? Win or lose, that's the feeling you're looking for. How are you doing in your personal life? My wife was diagnosed with a terminal illness in September of 2013. I think I prepared a lot for how to live my life caring for her. I wasn't prepared for how to live my life when she was gone. I had to not rediscover who I am, I had to define who I am. That doesn't happen overnight. If what you do every day is put a little effort into being kind to the people who are important to you in your life and the complete strangers, then that's where you're going to find the meaning. So, without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO, USA edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Michael, I tend to believe that people have I know why I eventually developed it, but I tend to believe that people have some kind of hypothesis as to what factors or experiences from their earliest years shaped them most significantly into the person they are today. Do you have a hypothesis like that? I think I have several, starting with how my family felt to me being the youngest of of the five kids in my family felt like it was pulled apart by geography uh between Sweden and the United States at an early age. My sisters stayed behind when my family moved back to the States when I was 5 years old. And I had this uh dream to reunite us in some way. How could we How could we be one family again? Um now that my sisters were older, they were choosing to It was the the normal maybe a few years early what from what you'd say normally would have happened anyway, them deciding to where do they want to live, who are they as people. And but me, I was I was this 5-year-old and I was uh I was sad to to lose my my sisters. My uh I had my brother with me and um when you think about what are the most important things in your life, it's the relationships you have with people. Um now, I'm not necessarily an outgoing person myself, so it's I don't that's not where this is this hypothesis has led me, but it has led me to the idea of connection, deep connection with people you care about is super important for how you live your life and the choices you make and what you prioritize. So, that was that's the one that's one theory. And then there's one other one, which is I think growing up, going through high school, coming to the United First of all, coming to the United States and not speaking English at the age of 5 and learning it all, you know, from television and getting thrust into school and you have this this feeling like you don't belong, you don't fit in. Uh that just that kept, you know, for many people I think it keeps going and you don't have that great sense of belonging until later, maybe until your teenage years or later, even in your 20s. But throughout all that time of searching and looking for something like or what I kept believing is that there's something inside me, a potential that needs to get realized and I don't just think that about me now, I think that about every single human being on this planet. And um the aspect of what it means to realize someone's potential, your own potential and then create the opportunity for the people around you to realize their potential, that drives me. That is something that I've I feel like has been a constant in everything I've done since I've been about 25 years old. That moment when you you're growing up and you've you've parted ways with your siblings seems to be one of the first seeds that led to the success of your later businesses because it was I mean in hindsight, I guess we all do this, but you I guess it highlighted the importance of connection and community as you said. When was the next seed planted? Cuz I kind of think about that with like great business ideas and I saw that in your story that there's these moments, these key moments which introduce you to like the idea of community and then to the idea of sport and competition. When was the next chronological seed? Mhm. Yeah, so coming out of that um like high school, feeling like I know I've I've got some amount of intellect. I don't really understand like what I'm going to use it. Um I don't feel like I was that, you know, call it like high school wasn't where I peaked. I don't think anyone should peak, by the way, high school. Like that's a lousy time to be at your like the pinnacle of your life. You want to peak later than that. So, getting into Harvard, going to a good school, that that seemed like that would be it, but it wasn't that wasn't it for me. It was actually walking into the boat house, never having rowed before and finding this group of people who also were trying to figure out where what's the where is their place at this institution that in some ways you're like, well, you got into there, so aren't you kind of done? I was like, actually no, now you're you're scared cuz you don't know if you measure up, you don't under have any understanding of where you stand, will you make it there? But finding that going into the boat house, you're like, hard work and What is this boat house? This is the boat house at Harvard? Yeah, yeah, the uh for the rowing team. It wasn't that I went in there thinking I'm going to I'm going to conquer this, I'm going to be uh one of the best rowers that this school has seen when I went in there, but within a few weeks I was like, that was my goal. I was going to be the best. Like that was somehow it wasn't there wasn't anything else except it just turned on inside me and I was I was hooked by that that experience uh because I'd found my place. I think that was the key is I'd found a group of people, I'd found this vibe, this energy. It was the part of the day I looked forward to, was the part I I felt so good about uh the rest of my life because I was there in that experience. Um I was motivated by the desire to be as good as I can possibly be at this thing. And I don't think I'd experienced that feeling before in my life. I was really compelled by the use of the word best. It made me start thinking about the idea of competition and um I think I sat here a couple of days ago with Simon Sinek talking about this, like the role that competition and wanting to be number one plays. Is it toxic? Is it uh a healthy motivator? Cuz I'm filled with that. Anyone We went bowling last night with the team. I was very quiet until I knew that I was going to win. You know what I mean? I'm a deeply competitive person. It motivates me, it drives me and I've wondered if that's a deficiency of my character or if it's a healthy thing. What have you learned about that? Yeah, I I think it can lead to challenges both at the personal level and then uh in a in a group. What I found at the in the crew team was that we couldn't be the best team if each of us individually wasn't trying to be the best. Mhm. But we always knew that you don't win a boat a boat race by yourself, you win it with um seven other rowers and a coxswain and you have to think of it like a team, but you have to think like like an individual who wants to be the best that what you can be. Another way to think about it is like, if you want to be as good as you possibly can be, you have to strive to be the best. Um but can you be okay also with not actually achieving the goal of being the top of everybody, but being as good as you know you got reached that point of you could not have given more. That's where that's where I get the satisfaction is I know at the end of that race, you know, I'm thinking of the race in my freshman year where we won the championship and we came from, you know, a boat length back, we had lost to that team in a previous race. And that feeling that went through uh my body and I believe everyone's body in that boat halfway through the race, we said we're not giving up. And uh we just rowed them down. And at the end of that, it was wasn't like like I'm the best, it was like we did something that we didn't think was possible. We created a new capacity. And so then all of a sudden, you know, maybe some space has opened up with what you thought you were capable of and what you could be and you you try it you go at back at it again. You you train again for for reaching that point where you said you did everything you possibly could. And win or lose, that's the feeling you're looking for, I think, when you when it's positive in your life. And I've been in those places where it can be really destructive, too. Um it changes your relationships with other people. You start to actually hate the thing you're doing uh because you're striving for the wrong you're striving for some outcome that maybe is not the right outcome. Um What experience are you talking about there? Training for races where you're by the time you're on the starting line, you just don't even want to do it anymore. That was often the feeling I had by the time you know, a a big race came around where I was just like, I'm so done with this. I just want to just not not be not be here right now. Um these things should be additive to your life. It should be something that you that makes you better in other ways besides just stronger physically. Probably a sign that you just you have lost the reason why you're doing it, the the why behind the work. When I was reading about Strava's work values, I read about this ABCs thing. And the B in that was about balance, which is what you're talking about there. Is that in part why you put the B there in terms of the the culture in the the office and the professional culture you're trying to create with Strava? Is that why the B is so important there, balance? Balance is elusive. And the counterpoint, we have another one of the C's is commitment. So, I talk about that a lot that um these things seem like they're at odds with each other. If you have balance, how can you also be 100% committed to the goal of building the best company we can build, doing the most we can do for our athlete community? And I say, "Yes, that is the struggle in life is to both have balance and be committed to something. It's incredibly challenging and to hold both concepts in your in your heart and in your head and is is the work. That is actually why they're there. They're there to remind us. Um if we only have one, balance, we won't we won't do as much. We won't we won't strive for as much as we can be. If we only have commitment, we will burn out. We will we will get to that place where we don't love the work we do anymore and we will we will question why we're here. So, it's by putting them together that that my co-founder and I felt we had the best chance at achieving that long-term commitment with balance. And it's a struggle. It is You're not There's no recipe here. There's no no playbook that tells you how to do it. Um and each person has does have to work at it and on their own. On their own. Is there that responsibility to to to work work at it? I I sometimes struggle with this as an employer, which is what role do I play in cuz I know the role I play in driving commitment, right? It's very obvious. You You set ambitious goals. You set tight timelines. You create a good prize and a worthwhile, you know, carrot at the end of accomplishing the goal. That drives commitment if you have the right people and you have camaraderie and all those things that you said. But then in terms of telling people to encouraging them to have balance in their life, what role can I play as an employer? What role do you think you should play? Hm. If you hire people who respond really well to those those motivators that that lead to their commitment, um I think you also have to look at it from how long do you want them to be there, to do the work, to be working at that level? And I think you can structure teams in different ways. You can You can roll through you know, people in the sense of that they may only contribute for a couple of years or a year. And And that's that's if that's the structure and many companies in Silicon Valley operate this way, which is 2 years at the on the team is is a pretty standard length and then you move on uh and you recommit somewhere else. Um We are trying to build something different at Strava. We are trying to build the 100-year brand, uh the company that will last longer than I will be there. Um it will still be here after many of the people who have been investors in the company have exited the company. It's it is uh something that we hope will withstand the test of time. And in that setting, I think it's much more important to think about these You need some people who are going to be there for much longer than that one or two years. That's where balance comes in. Yes, it's easy to say you don't want people to burn out, but if it's only that you don't want them to get that tired, that sick of their job that they're quote unquote burned out, you've probably lost some level of productivity for quite a while before that. So, we strive for a different kind of relationship with our team. Uh it is a challenge also as a leader to make sure we're still performance-oriented. We We still want that that sense that we have we have to bring our A game. We cannot be satisfied with past success or be complacent. There's plenty of competition out there. All sorts of new uh new technologies that are coming uh into the into the fore today, new ways of building communities, new ways of motivating people. We have to stay competitive. And so, that is my job as a leader. Uh I have a leadership team that helps me with this. It's not just my job, but it is it is ensuring that we are taking care of our people, but also expecting that they're going to climb the mountain with us. The way that you're building that company and what you're aiming to to do to create a a long-term long-standing business goes against the narrative, especially in Silicon Valley, where the objective is to like raise money before you're profitable, sell the thing, or go public and move on to the next thing. Um clearly there's experience behind your desire to pursue a longer-term strategy where you're not just, you know, s- uh investing all your money in user growth, getting a gazillion users, and then exiting. I expect it's because of your other business, the the one that came before Strava. Am I right? And if so, why did that teach you that this longer-term approach to company building is a better path forward for you as the founder and for other things? When we started Strava, we were looking back at the previous company we had started. And we started talking about um creating what is now Strava back in 2006. Um we got together uh starting on the phone weekly talking about ideas that we if we're going to start a company, what would it be. Eventually, we got Mark and I, my co-founder Mark Gainey, and I uh decided we had to get together for a few days the summer of 2006. And we defined at its core that what we had experienced in that other company, Kana Software, back in in the late '90s, it was the Silicon Valley Olympics. That's the way I term that you you you have an idea, you raise some capital, you're at you're off to the races, and either you have taken it public or sold it in 4 years or it's, you know, and that's the gold medal or go home because it's that's it. Um we didn't want to do that again and a few reasons why. Um it wasn't terribly satisfying at the end of the day. We uh Kana was a wild ride during a wild time in the first internet boom. Um a lot of people made a lot of money. A lot of people lost a lot of money. Um and so, what in it would we look back on and say, besides the experience itself and what we learned, what would it be that we would say to our kids, our grandkids, like, "Here, this is something we're really proud that we created." We can't even lay claim to having created if if we're only there for 4 years and then other people take it forward, is it really ours? So, we were out on the doorstep, you know, literally almost 4 years to the day after starting Kana. How How and why? Well, personal choice in my case. I wanted to go back to teaching. I was I came from academia. I was a I was teaching economics when we started Kana. I wanted to go back to academia. Mark, the company got to a point where he brought in another CEO to run it um and he found that it wasn't his company anymore. He didn't have the role that he thought he would have on the other side of that decision. So, I don't want to speak for him, but it was like this sense of like it was a personal choice for both of us. But at the same time, we look back on and say, "Where it goes next is not not part of us. We have to forge a different path. There's got to be an idea that's worth that much of our investment." And perhaps it's that sense of at that point in our lives where we were then, late '30s, early '40s, when we're starting Strava, we were thinking about this could be it. This is It's not like we're we're going to have that many good ideas in our life. We're not we're not going to have another opportunity and to to to build this kind of a company, at least. Um and so, let's make it worth it. You know, let's let's find something that we're extremely passionate about. And we used to say things like it doesn't have to be big. It has to be great. It has to have meet give meaning to the people who are our customers. And we defined that as like we want to we want to help people live a more more a life of full of more full of meaning, adventure, and fun. We didn't say activity. We weren't yet sure what it was going to do, but it had to have some impact. It can't just be transactional. It has to have an effect on you at the at the core level of what you value, what decisions you make on a daily basis. And that's where I think we got our we got to Strava and I'm love to go to like this the idea behind Strava was a 20th century idea. We had that idea coming out of the boathouse when we graduated from college. We had the idea that what we what we experienced there is something that is applicable in so many places in our lives. Being connected to other people through sport is what motivates you to lead a more active life and makes you a better human being. It helps you live a healthier life and makes all the rest of your life better. It did that for us when we were in our '20s. And that's the universal part that we wanted to tap into when we were starting to create what became Strava was that it's the context of the people around you that keeps you motivated. It's the It's the way in which you're connected through sport to other people that unites you. Um and so, we started to explore that space and um when you explore and are willing to talk to people about your ideas, they respond. They tell you ideas that they've had that sound pretty close to what you're doing even if they're not sure that it's really relevant. And so, those conversations in the early days, 2008, led to us actually putting a team behind this to build a a prototype and and that eventually became the earliest version of Strava in 2009. So, it was really just a set of conversations that led to what we actually decided on, but it came from something we had experienced in in um in college back in in the in the late '80s and '90s, a 20th century idea. When I think about how you formulated Strava and that early process, it's like exactly what I'd tell an entrepreneur not to do. In the in the respect of um a A of the entrepreneurs you you you see that they actually just want to be an entrepreneur. So, they think, "Hack it. Uh gosh, uh what should I do?" Um and they look around for a problem to solve, one that isn't in line with any of their intrinsic like passions and innate motivations. So, the minute they encounter some difficulty, the first hurdle in business, which is inevitable, they then fold and they give up because why would you pursue current doing something that you weren't genuinely um in love with. And I guess, you know, I guess the process is the thing that I wouldn't I've never would advise someone to kind of like sit down with your mate and think of a business, but I guess the process also led you just closer towards what did innately matter to you, which was adventure, activity, community. Even though you did it the other way around. Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, so uh I guess I'm trying to tell this like how we originally conceived of what became what is now Strava was in 1994 95 when I'm a professor at Stanford teaching economics, Mark is working in venture capital in Palo Alto and there's this thing called the internet uh that has just become like a household word. Uh before I got to Stanford I think I had sent one email in my life. I had never I didn't know what the internet was. I I had no idea. When I got to the Department of Economics, um the the person who managed all the IT equipment said, "I'm going to install a browser on your computer." I had no idea what he was talking about. What's a browser? So, had lived up to that point without the internet and the internet is introduced. Uh it's a different thing than today with, you know, kids growing up with all of this around them. But, when it was introduced, what Mark and I did was exactly that entrepreneur that instinct is like "What is this new thing going to do? What problem can it solve? What's the what's the you know and Mark wanted to start a company. I was a professor. I was going to be his sounding board. He came to my office because I had an internet connection and he didn't. You know, so what we we cooked up was like, "Well, what are the problems in our own life that we would want to solve with this new technology?" As a starting point cuz we didn't know what else where else to start, right? So, we we went through a a bunch of, you know, different ideas. And the thing that we hung on to was like "We miss the crew team. We miss that the bunch of people who were, you know, from all different walks of life and they found their the same thing that we were passionate about and we spent a ton of time with them. We were we were with them hours every day. And we miss that feeling of being connected to them. We miss the boat house. We miss the feeling of competition. Could we recreate that with this new technology called the internet? Could we create the virtual locker room?" And so, what we were describing to ourselves was what you see in Strava today is like a place where you could see other people's workouts. You could see you could talk about you track your performance over time, a training log. All that was we sketched that out. We wrote a business plan. This is 1995, right? So, we we're not anywhere close to the start of the founding of Strava by any means. We actually went out and talked about this idea with companies that were building websites. And that's that was the earliest internet companies were the ones that were building websites that other companies would then use to become internet companies, right? So, um and they told us, "This is a lousy idea. You know, like come on, guys. Can't you do better than this? This is never going to work. People are not going to share personal information about themselves with strangers on the internet. That's never going to happen. Uh let's see, there's no technology that's going to make it easy to get the data in. Uh people are going to be having to fill out forms and submit them online. That's going to be really really full of friction. You should You should just put this away. Don't tell Don't Don't tell anyone about this idea. It's such a bad idea, right?" And they turned us on to the idea that became Kana Software, which was something so mundane, boring. Built a great company, but it was build systems to help these internet companies respond to consumer inbound consumer email, customer support email. So, we did that. We got turned on to that idea. Why did we pursue that? We weren't passionate about it. We became passionate about it, especially Mark. You know, we just wanted to be entrepreneurs. We wanted to to seize the moment of this new technology, this new world of the internet. We wanted to create something. We were motivated by the idea that anyone can do this. That's the way it felt. And we tabled the thing we were really passionate about because some people told us it was a bad idea. And I thank them for it because it probably was a bad idea at the time. It would have failed, right? But, where we were in 2007 2008 that idea was still in our back of our minds. That idea came to the front. That's what we went and said, "Now, what has changed?" Well, a lot has changed, right? Right? So, you have Facebook showing us that people are actually willing to share with people that they trust on the internet. You And before that that I'm sure Facebook wasn't the first to prove that out, but Facebook was the first to prove out that you can build community with the internet, at least in our world. Then you have GPS's in the thing that's in our pocket all of a sudden. This mobile phone has got a GPS chip in it around two that around that time for a minute. Okay, it's not great. And so, we're like, "All those reasons why we shouldn't have started that company are now reasons why we should start that company." And it matches the things we had talked about in that time in Vail. Could we build something that people would use every day? Would they tell their friends about it? Would it help them get out and live a more life of more adventure? Would they Would it be trusted? Would it be a trusted brand?" And we're like, "Hey, wait a minute. The universe is putting this in right in front of us. This is all coming together. And why not? Why not this? And in some ways we denied that it could be that easy that this idea we had had so many, you know, more than a decade earlier could be the thing that we're now going to go and start a company. We had denied that for a while and tried these other things first. We explored other places in the very very much the way that you would say the way entrepreneurs should do it. And we said, "No, we got to do this. This is the thing we And we And And then it says, you know, you you meet some people. You talk to about about your idea with some people and you see this has got some legs. This is other people have had similar thoughts and you can get them on board. Uh the person we met, Dave Davis Kitchel instrumental in how we got this company started. Um he happened to be living in the same small town I was living in. And he was trying to work out technology to use GPS to compare the time it took him to climb on his bicycle up a road by his house. He was just exploring this cuz he was curious. And we thought, "Oh, that's interesting. I wonder if I wonder if that could be somehow the basis of what you could do in this virtual locker room that we were building." And that became Strava segments. That was the earliest first conversation about something that became a fundamental part of what Strava is today. That would never have happened if we hadn't just opened up and said, "We're trying to build something that will help people live a more active life." And then Davey says, "Well, I'm working on something that helps motivate that might help motivate me to live be more active. I wonder if it could be relevant to you." Um and he's still part of the team today and Strava segments is is a big part of what people know about Strava. What have you learned then from all these people who are changing their lives and exercising on Strava about what motivates us to go from a place of being sat on the say for as I was in 2020 in March as that first lockdown rolled in to downloading Strava and then um going on a fitness journey. There's something weird that happened to me which I've I've never really understood. If I look at the person I was before that date, I was a repeat failure at fitness. Like every year, this is going to be the year. Everyone knows the story like, "No, this year's going to be the year." Then crashed out. Then "No, this year's going to be the year." And then I think I know what's changed, but is there data to prove or to suggest what it is that makes people finally get the bug? The fitness health bug. Mhm. Yeah, great question. Um what we see is the people who you do have to catch on and find something that keeps you in Strava, but the thing that happens to you when you use when you're when you're part of the community, when you're when you stay with it is you become more regular. You become become more It's more frequent that you are active. You may not get faster. You might, but that's not actually what we see. You're just more regularly active. Consistent. You're more consistent. And so, what is what is also true is that if you're more connected to other people, and doesn't have to be a lot of people. I think most the majority of it is you have to be connected to people you actually care about on Strava that motivate you to be at more more consistent. And so, we say people keep people active. People motivate people to be active. And you may not realize it, but your journey motivated somebody else, too. Your activities were the source of motivation for someone else. And they were more active and they added their activities and that was the motivation for someone else. So, this has a way of exponentially increasing people's motivation. And I believe we can change over time, over the next many years we can help people follow the same journey you took more and more regularly. So, we may have started in a place which is a was more about the performance aspects of being active. How can you get faster? But, we quickly realized it's about it's about consistency. It's about the experience and that's I think where we keep people. You may come for the competition. You stay you stay for the community. You may come for wanting to track your workout but you stay because of the people you you meet and how they motivate you and how it feels. Am I missing anything then from my cuz I'm cuz I'm just personally very interested in this the competition, the community, I guess striving towards a a goal or a metric. Sometimes for people it's improving my running time or something. Um I guess there's a sense that might be linked to the sense of like accomplishment of winning a badge or a reward or a little bing. You know when I'm on my Peloton or when I'm on Strava you get little something. Is there anything else that you you've seen as a significant motivator for people to be engaged with their fitness journey? Well, it's got to make them feel better. I mean yeah, I definitely think there's and we don't I would say we don't necessarily track that very well today. How do you actually feel about yourself now versus a month ago or two months ago? We track a lot about your physiological performance. We can show you you're better. Um lower heart rate, lower resting heart rate, you you your your fitness score has gone up. Um all sorts of ways in which we can show progress physiologically, but I'm more interested in joy. I mean that's that's we're we're not good yet at measuring the meaning and joy we bring to people's lives. We'll get there. And I think but that's an very important part of the equation is that you feel better and you want to keep feeling that good. So if I also look back on where we thought we were starting was we were building something that had to be good enough for the best athletes in the world to use because we believed they could motivate people who were not as committed to a active life to come on board. I actually don't think that that's that is motivating, but I think the other stories are even more motivating. Stories like yours like you've dramatically changed how you live your life. You put activity at the center. And that's incredibly motivating for people that they can see that that's possible. So I believe it's increased storytelling is it really the key. Yeah, you're right. I think that's that's a being you know the idea of the gamification. Yeah, we did that. But where we're leaning more much more heavily now is tell allowing the people in our community to tell their story and not just of today I went out for this run. Yeah, that's part of a story, but what does this amount to over time? How do I accomplish my goals? What are the things I'm striving for? How do I feel when I get there? And maybe that's where we can start measuring the joy of it a bit more precisely. Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA. If you want to be one of those people, all you've got to do is hit subscribe. I was thinking you know one of my hypotheses which I've shared many times, but I feel compelled to ask you is that my goals were bad. My goals were like they they were goals and it's funny cuz it kind of goes goes back to your first company. They were goals that could be completed. They were short-term goals. This is when I crashed out and failed all the time. They were like surface level, superficial, get a six-pack for summer goals. And it wasn't until I I mean Simon Sinek sat sat where you are in a couple of days ago and one of the things he talks a lot about is infinite games, right? Until I started setting goals that were more infinite like you've done with Strava in trying to create a long-standing company. And those goals ended up just being about consistency. It was like go to the gym today. Something I could never accomplish. That was one of the turning points. The other was the pandemic. Which is I think it was which is A I mean I mean I know you saw a boost in customer acquisition. I mean that's when I joined, didn't I? I know the numbers, but um it I think in part it was realizing that our health was fragile. Seeing that for the first time in my young life that health was the foundation of everything I was doing. I actually want to ask you a question about the pandemic cuz you were talking earlier on about how at the boathouse you learned that community and connection and these things are so unbelievably important. One of the things the pandemic has robbed us of is community and connection. It's put us behind screens. So I was compelled to ask you like what Strava's take on this remote working thing? Where at your core you're about community and connection and you know that more than anyone. Yeah, it's been it's been hard for us to find our way back to how it felt to work together. We were camaraderie is one of our other C's. Um commitment, craftsmanship, and camaraderie. So camaraderie was important and that and it showed up in a lot of ways. We had um a Wednesday workout lunchtime we'd go out for runs or there was a group that walked, there was a group that met for um some mornings to go for a ride. So the camaraderie in sport, yes. There was camaraderie in we spent a lot of time working together and building those relationships. It It felt like a team inside the company and that that was really difficult to replicate um virtually. Um but something else has happened uh as a result of pandemic that I think is a real beautiful outcome that will lead us back to camaraderie of a very different kind. We stopped putting location as a requirement on any job openings. Uh so we hired we've more than doubled the team over the course of the last year and a half and have added people across the United States in many different countries as well because if you're if you have the talent and we're looking for it we you don't have to be in San Francisco or Denver which were the two main offices we had or Bristol, UK. Uh we've now opened an office in Dublin. So we will have physical locations, but we have a a over 150 people today who don't have any one of our office locations as their home city. And the beautiful thing in that is these people all have incredible talent. Yes, they they were the best people that we could have possibly attracted for the position. But they have such different lived experiences. They bring that to the work they do. So we're learning a ton about what camaraderie really where it really comes from. You maybe the thing we were creating was in the old uh in the pre-pandemic times was a camaraderie that was built around a a very very limited set of rituals like going for that Wednesday workout. It turns out that a lot of people felt excluded by that because they weren't they didn't feel fast enough to go with the crew that was going out for a run. We have to find our ways to replicate or create something that is is like that today. But what we have is a much broader set of stories that people can bring and tell about what they did before they joined Strava, what they're experiencing here. They're coming from all sorts of different locations. But so that's that's an aspect of our what camaraderie can We feel when we got together in San Diego in person for a week at the beginning of March what came out was how much we already appreciate each other even if we've never been together. We've never most of us had never met in person. But we we already felt like we knew each other and we didn't start with the awkward hello, I'm so-and-so. It was hugs right away. It was this sense of this this is the team that now is in the same place and I want to carry that forward. I want I want that to be like we put coins in the bank that'll get us for the next 6 months or a year till the next time we get together. But we can we can create that sense of camaraderie even if we're not sitting in the same office building or the same room. Uh so that was a that was eye-opening for me that that that was possible because of pandemic that we could create this very distributed, interesting, diverse workforce team that felt everyone felt for the most part felt a sense of belonging. What role does that play though the in-person stuff? Cuz I cuz we all here think it's brilliant that we're all here together. Yeah. Lot of my lot of my personal team are here in this in this uh studio. What role does that play though? And what value does that add? Cuz I don't know. I think I I think I have a real bias towards being with people. And maybe it's I don't know what it is. Maybe I don't know. I don't know what it is, but I like being with people. I and I really struggle on Zoom. I don't feel like it's real. Yeah, me too. No, it's it's so I think what I what we what is possible is you can be with people, but you don't have to be with them all the time. That you can find the the combination of um my colleague Brian who's here with me today. He lives in Dallas uh in the in uh in the Dallas area. And we have we we looked at the calendar. It turns out we've actually gotten together in person now I think you know four out of the last five weeks because of business need brought us together. Yet we've also spent time working in a virtual setting. So it's I call that putting the coins in the bank. We have enough opportunity to see each other in person to get that feeling that we can be more effective when we have to work virtually together. And I think we replicate that. That's the model I think that we we can get to. It If we only worked with people who are geographically proximate, we're losing that opportunity to work with people with completely different set of experiences that they can bring to what we're trying to build. We're trying to serve athletes everywhere. There are I think easily over a billion people who wake up every day wanting to be active and we want to meet them all. They're in every part of the world. And so that incredible diversity of the customer that we want to serve it just moves us that we had to build a team that tries to match that diversity in the people on the team. And so if we're not there anywhere, you know, we most of our team is still in the US like as as in terms of the the geographic bias we have today. But I think that it it's not possible to build that kind of a company, that kind of a team if you're if you require everyone to be in the same location all the time. So we give some little on the location and we get a lot back in terms of what people can bring, the different experiences they can bring to us. So I I guess the conclusive question here is like what role does the corporations what do you feel you play in adding you give community to your customers, but what role do you feel you play in giving that in- like that in-person community outside of your home, out in the wild, to your employees? Yeah, we uh we we pay a lot of attention to it. I think it's important for people to do their best work that they feel a sense of belonging. And I don't think this is just at Strava, I think it's true in a lot of places. And sometimes that that is so much easier to do when you're in person and you're providing the breakfast and the the the the desk and that's that that place that this is a I can feel productive in this space. And yes, the colleagues around me are people with, you know, incredible talents and I I'm energized by the by the by the by the group, by the the setting that I'm in. Um and I think for many of our team, they really missed that um during the pandemic. They would love it back to come back, but it's really difficult to to bring it back right now. It's it's going to take us time to work our way back. Why? There are two reasons I see and I I've thought a lot about this in the sense of just in the our Strava's example. One is we have programmed our lives to be remote. Reprogrammed our lives to be remote. And so we are stuck in patterns that are really difficult to get out of. Just like in the beginning of pandemic, it was really difficult to get into that pattern. We were forced to. We're not forced to get out of it now. Strava's not forcing people back into the office. So, it's difficult with everything from how you organize your your day. Maybe you have children or other dependents at home you have to take care of. You have pets, you have um you have worked worked out a routine that works really well for working from home. And so getting people back in the office is a getting over those those hurdles and frictions. And so what do we do? We we make it more enticing. Wednesdays we offer lunch. Um we are trying to organize Wednesday as the day if you're going to pick one day a a week, maybe one day a month, make it a Wednesday. Get people oh, this wasn't so bad. I got over the friction that one day, maybe I'll do it again. That's just the that's like the mundane reason why it's why it's hard. The second reason I think is more fundamental is like it is really difficult to be halfway, halfway back to work. Coordination of either being all remote or all in the office is a lot easier. And we're not ready to go all in the office. We'll lose people on our team we don't want to lose. That's that's like a maybe a too much of a calculating way to think about it. It's more like that I don't think we'll get the best work out of the people who we force to come back in and they stay on the team. Um and that just may that that is what will take more time and a more of a sense of a sense of security um that this is going to be a good experience. I'm not going to number one, just my my health is not going to suffer, the health of the people I love around me won't suffer. So, we're not there yet maybe in terms of a from a medical or scientific basis yet. But I think it's more important it doesn't really matter what the science says if if what you feel is I don't feel secure and safe when I go to the office, that's what I I think is going to be much harder to overcome. And that's the part where coordination just makes it really difficult to replicate if you don't have everyone just say, "Yeah, I'm I work from the office." Or during working from home, you lose you lose all those things are true. And we we lost we had that great sense of disconnection. Uh the days of endless video meetings and um trying to do whatever you could to get that sense of energy you get by being around another human being. Um Uh it was a struggle. Did you find in that in that period you lost employees? So, from my perspective with my company, we had about 700 people around the world. One of our big USPs as we thought was community. And that's what we that's one of our the reasons why you'd come and work at our company, Social Chain, was community, the culture in the office, and all of those things. We offered flexibility, so people generally decided what days they worked, etc. But the minute the pandemic rolled in and everyone had to stay at home in their boxer shorts in their one-bed studio apartment, it felt like people then started to make the decision about where they wanted to work based on well, "If I'm going to be in my boxer shorts looking at the screen anyway, I might as well get paid more to do it." Mhm. And we we saw a little it was the first time in our history where we saw people just leaving for and we asked them why they were leaving and they go, "More money." Mhm. Before then it didn't matter. And I was wondering and this is part of the reason why I think I have a real bias towards the office, can kind of be like open about what I do in my companies is at the moment when we we actually had a group session the other day where people said you we talked about the days, but the moment there's two days a week where we we we all want to come we come in, right? And in between that, like whatever. And if you can't make like the the days, then you cuz you've got something going on, fine. But that's when we will try and really be be the present cuz we want that synchronous, collaborative, all that wonderful stuff. And taking a hard line on it, I'll be honest, I think has helped. I speak to so many founders and companies who are trapped in this limbo of can't force them back, trying to incent trying to make the office a nicer place, but people aren't coming back. And I I actually this I don't know if I'm going to get canceled for this, but I think that um there's a risk in not setting a hard line and having clarity and saying, "Listen, if you don't want to work here, there's other places to work, but here's how we do it." And we're choosing to do it this not this way, not because the CEO is an egotist and wants to control people, but but when we reverse engineer our objective as a company back from whatever it is, we believe work are now happy they did. Like we are. We're happy we have this much more, you know, geographically distributed workforce that's bringing us incredible talent with a lot of different experience um behind that. And then on the other side, I'm not sure, you know, where this is going to go for some of the companies that are in like right now we're saying you all have to come back into the office. They the just a loose number of conversations I've had with with other CEOs says you lose about 20% of the people if you do that. And you're not really sure which of the 20% cuz it's really difficult to know until you you make people decide. Um but they're going to be okay. I mean that they're going to they'll find other people who then say, "Yeah, I really want to work at a place where everyone comes to the office." And that's what I want too. Um and so that's the sorting that will happen here in the next few years, but you know, these things take time. That's the thing and time, you know, we don't have a lot of I mean, I mean, we're trying to build up a long-lasting company, but we want to have we don't want this to be the thing that gets in the way of us progressing as a company. So, we are balancing that, too. Is that not middle ground where you say like these two days a week the team comes to the the Is that not middle ground? And you're just very clear on that. Yeah, I think that is a a really good next step uh if we're not achieving that sense of coordination with giving people the choice, but encouraging them to say with incentives like lunch or or events or uh the presence of the senior leadership will be there on these certain days. There needs to be a point, right? There needs to be a point where you say, "Okay, it's not working. We're going to try try another way." I have a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. As the seasons have begun to change, so has my diet. And um right now, I'm just going to be completely honest with you, I'm starting to think a lot about slimming down a little bit because over the last couple of probably the last four or five months, my diet has been pretty bad. Um, and it's started to show a little bit. Really, over the last two months. I go to the gym about 80% of the time. So, I track it with 10 of my friends in a WhatsApp group and this tracker online that we all use together. And so, one of the things I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake and trying to get back to being nutritionally complete in all I eat is I'm having the Huel protein shake. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one. What was the hardest moment at the start of the Strava growth that you faced at the start in those opening years? Yeah, we opened like we created the the company got the founding team 2000 beginning of 2009. We were only web-based. So, you had to you couldn't track your workout with your mobile phone on Strava. You used a third-party GPS device. An example of one was a Garmin uh 305 cycle computer. It was largely cycling only to start with. You really we didn't encourage any other any other sport type, but you you had to have you had to pay for that piece of equipment. You had to plug it into your laptop or desktop computer transfer the file and upload it to Strava. Incredible friction, right? So, we we did not grow fast at all in the beginning. It was like so many you had to really want to try to experience this thing. You you were and it's not because mobile wasn't a thing you could do. We just didn't do it. There were companies that started largely with they did maybe had a website, but they they pretty quickly built a mobile app. Companies like RunKeeper. They were one of the first 100 apps in the App Store. Imagine that. Now, there I don't know millions of apps in the App Store, but How are RunKeeper doing? Well, they got bought. I mean, that's the a lot of these companies that were we launched into a pretty crowded space back in 2009. There were at least 10 maybe more companies that were doing something you call activity tracking with GPS. Most of them had a mobile app, so we did not. RunKeeper was acquired in I want to say 2015 2014 by one of the big sports brands. Um, MapMyFitness was acquired by Under Armour. Runtastic was acquired by Adidas. By the way, none of these acquirers ever came to talk to Strava. Can't tell you why. Would have to you'd have to go have to go talk to them. Maybe we were perceived as we were too niche because we were perceived as only focusing on more hardcore athletes and not the masses. Wasn't true, but in any case, what what was true back in 2009 what we had we had built you know, the wrong the wrong experience for what ultimately would drive community growth, which is it needs to be on your mobile phone. It needs to be you know, kind of all on your mobile phone. You it the mobile phone is not just the tracking device that then you then go to the website to look at have the experience. You need to build the experience on mobile. And we were really late to that. We were so late. Um, and so by 2012 we finally have a mobile team that's building an experience. So, three years after founding, two and a half years after founding the company we are finally in the game, if you will. How did you know you were wrong? We were wrong in the sense that we weren't seeing the community growth. We were we were building an experience that really people was people once they got through all those frictions to get started, they stuck around. They were committed. They were they were engaged. They converted to the subscription, which is the core of our business is you can use Strava for free as long as you like, but the best that we have to offer um, kind of the if you're going to put something you say you're you're going to you're going to invest in yourself and and try to live a more active life, you the subscription really helps you. It gives you more ways to stay motivated more fun, more ways to discover what's great around you. So, the subscription has all these great things and it was there from from the early days. We we didn't wait to launch it. We launched it in the end of 2009. So, we had a lot of people who were found we had who that we had a high conversion rate. If you if you want to we had a low community size, but a high conversion rate. So, we knew we were onto something and so what taught us we were wrong was we we actually said, okay, we better build a a mobile app and we built one that basically just tracked your workout. You could you could record a workout to get it into Strava. We saw off-the-charts community growth in the first week. Really? We were adding prior to the mobile app, we were adding maybe 100 new users 100 new athletes a week. We added 10,000 a day on the launch of the of our mobile app. We got featured in the App Store. That was 100,000 in a day. Wow. Why? Because it's such an easy entry point. You don't have to pay for anything. You already have the phone in your pocket. You're just downloading our our app from the App Store. The App Store is pushing you us out to a community we would never have had the the money to meet from a marketing perspective. There was only one problem. We built the wrong There again, we we learned we built the wrong experience. We we thought you track the workout on your mobile phone and then you go to the website to see your results and that's not people like people aren't going to do that. We we so, we we had to rebuild that that app and that rebuild the experience to be all all completely on mobile. But, the idea that what can unlock the community growth is the form factor of reducing the frictions, getting meeting people where giving them a a chance to to onboard into something without having to go through a lot of hoops, jump jump through all the things. Basic stuff, but those those were like the earliest things that we that we did did prove that we could build something that was highly engaging. We just couldn't get people into the into the experience in the early days until we built the mobile apps. As you're going through that iterative experience to figure out how to scale the business and where the product market fit is how are you doing in your personal life at that stage on the B? The balance. Yeah, I mean, this is where going back to when Mark and I were thinking of starting another company we were saying it's going to be different this time, right? We're not going to let it consume us. We're going to find a way to keep the B. In my personal case, that did not last more than the first year. I uh we we thought we were going to build a company. I was living in Hanover, New Hampshire, which is this very small community in um about 2 hours north of Boston in in the state of New Hampshire. It's in the woods. Um, Dartmouth College is there. And they had a they hired me to teach entrepreneurship in 2000. And so, I that's what brought us there, my family, my wife and four kids. So, we arrived and when my my youngest daughter, she's now 20 turning 24 this year, she was turning two that year. So, you can like we had this very little you know, we had four kids in in five years. We had very young kids. We're going to we're going to raise them in Hanover. And I was like, we got to I got to live in Hanover and Mark is in in the Bay Area. He's living in California. Well, he's got to live he's got to live in in Portola Valley. And so, we're going to build this company on on two coasts and it was going to be you know, a team in New Hampshire and a team in California. And by 2010 it was like that's clearly not going to be the case. To hire the the talent we need, it's probably going to be the team in San Francisco that's going to be the headquarters. And so, I start flying to San Francisco more and more regularly all throughout 2010. Instead of going like once every two months, I'm going once a month staying for five days. Now, it's once every two weeks staying for five days and then it's that gets more and more frequent. So, I'm definitely not on the on the B. The balance is gone out the window. And this was 2010 through the end almost to the end of 2013 where I'm I'm CEO of the company. We're growing we're growing this community is now surpassing a million members in the community. And we get to the point where I think we're just shy of 10 million by the time that I'm stepping down. And you know what, uh it's a very sad story, but my wife was diagnosed with a terminal illness in September of 2013. She had had uh been diagnosed she had had breast cancer gone through treatment at in 2004 long before we start started Strava and it had had come back and it was uh it was you know, those those first months we weren't sure exactly how long she she would have to live. The doctors were we got to do a lot of tests and um, I'm I'm still living this dual life between New Hampshire and California cuz she she didn't move to California with me. We didn't move the family. That was a choice we made to to remain in New Hampshire um, as the home base for the family. And so, what ends up happening at the end of 2013 is um I step down from running the company. Mark steps in as the CEO. I um I'm in a supportive function, but I have a lot of flexibility and I move back to New Hampshire. And um for the next three and a half years until Anna passed away, I that was my my my priority became taking care of my family, taking doing what I could to to take what time we had left to make it as meaningful as possible and all sorts of things we can talk about of finding meaning to the to the last day. There's there's a lot of lessons learned there, but what I was that's not that's a different kind of balance. I want to be honest. It's like not necessarily what I what I expect you know, when we say balance for as a as a value it it feels like what we do is we pass through that balance point over and over again in our lives. We never quite seize it and hold onto it and feel like we live in it. But it's something we experience, we go through over and over again and we try to return to it. And it's the act of trying to return to it that I hold out as like that's what I'm motivated by. By putting balance into the core values of Strava, by having it be something I focus on in my life. I want to return to it as often as I can, even if I won't be able to stay in it all the time. So, leaving Strava, that was the That was definitely not balance. Moving into caring for my family, there were periods where it came in, definitely found a a flow and a harmony and a a balance, but then times were, you know, just it completely is out the window and everything is all hands-on deck on what's the next treatment we're going to try to find for for Anna. Where are we going to In one case, we had to move. And we chose to move back to move to San Francisco so she could be in a clinical trial of a novel therapy that showed some promise. And that these are the kinds of examples where balance just didn't wasn't there either. You You You had to You had to work at it. And then in the balances where I think you find the most meaningful moments. You said about the passing of your wife, Anna, in that period you were trying to find meaning till the last day. And you've learned a lot about what that is. Mhm. What is that? You have to You have to think of it as not as the goal is to get to something some state of health or physical ability or mental ability to do something like a dream or a trip you want to take. It's It's the the day that is the day you're you're living in. It's Take it as it comes today. And having having a living a life where We're all terminal, by the way. Turns out we're all on our way to some point where we say we're on our last day. But what you experience when you're going through regular measurement of the progress of a disease like that. Uh because that's the way you're you're the medical treatment is We're monitoring the disease to know when to change therapy, when to add other drugs that will help handle the symp the side effects of all the therapy, when to say it's time to stop the therapy. The meaning can't be extend my life. At some point if that's your goal, you will not find meaning in that goal. It It will be out the window. So, you instead you have to find meaning in what can this day bring? It starts by How do I feel today? Um if you string together a bunch of days where you feel you've gotten something out of the day, that's a meaningful life. And you can find that till the very end. And just I learned so much from watching Anna progress through that and uh give give to people around her, but also give to herself. She was an artist. Um worked in her studio to nearly the very last day. Was working on projects that she knew she would never finish, but she was motivated by what she could experience of working on those pieces of art. She did leave behind like if if this were going to continue, here's what I would do with it. Um My youngest is an artist. I I know what's motivating her is like she wants to get to some of those pieces and see if she can bring them to some version of what her mom had left behind. What What she had indicated this could be something like this. I think Mira will bring it to something else. She'll She'll add her own thing to it, but that that was what Anna You know, I think she got there. Struggling against the end is not the way to find the meaning. How has that shifted your cuz experiences like that I imagine um teach you other profound things about the point of all of this. I know I spent much of my early years thinking the point of all of this was to buy a Lamborghini. Right? And then even the pandemic was one of the catalysts that made me realize there was as I said earlier, this tectonic plate that mattered a little bit more. And then it was really interesting to watch um how I had a Rolex at the time. I don't have one anymore. But my Rolex was exchanged for my Apple Watch. And there's something quite symbolic in that. It went from being about signaling status to others to caring about my health. And when I think about the loss of someone um especially someone young someone close to you as well. What are the What is the priority shift that happens it you know, I'm presuming there is one, but is there a priority shift that happens, a different perspective on what matters that maybe an entrepreneur like me needs to hear. I don't I don't know that I knew this when she was going through her life those last few years were even the the few years after she passed away. I don't think I was I was I think I prepared a lot for how to live my life caring for her. I wasn't prepared for how to live my life when she was gone. But what I've come to I think is it's it's This is again maybe somewhat obvious is that the relationship you can build with some an individual, and in this case my wife, the person I We met. Where did we meet? In your We met in my backyard. When I When I started grad school at Northwestern University, I rented this coach house, which is like a a little carriage house behind a bigger home, and I was walking to the front of the house one morning to get my mail, and I'm walking through the backyard, and there's this young woman in her pajamas talking to my landlord, and this is Anna. She's She turns turns out she's a friend of my landlord, had babysit sat for her children when she was going to college at the same school I was getting my PhD. This is Northwestern University in Chicago in Evanston, Illinois. So, I meet Anna in in my backyard, and um she's not living in Evanston. She's living in Cincinnati, Ohio. But she she comes back to visit a few months later, and a few months after that we're married. And so we start We're We're We're babies, right? I'm I I got married the day after I turned 25. I mean, we're She was 23. We were not yet fully formed human beings, right? We're but we're now building a life together. And we went through all sorts of po- highs and lows in our marriage, and we had the We have four children, and we we live otherwise like this life where you'd say we built something together. I look back on that and say like the best thing I built is two things. My friendship with Mark and my marriage with Anna. Those I hope those are those are the things I look back on apart from everything else and say at the end when when my day comes, like those were the things where meaning comes from. That's where if I go back to what's most important, it's the relationships with the people who are closest to you in your life. And then that extends to the people who are also important, but they may not You may not have that same bond. So, what did I learn? Well, losing that person is extremely difficult. You're left with I was I don't want to speak for everyone who goes through this, but it's there is an aspect of you don't know which way is up anymore. You're off script. You are Whatever you thought your life was going to be about, it is You're You're questioning everything. And um in my case, I had four children who were 17 to 22 in at a in age at that time. And we pulled together. This is I wear this bracelet. This is I gave one to each of my children. I They wear it every day. We get We This is on the day of Anna's funeral. And we pulled together, and we helped each other through that darkest darkest moment. And again, it's the relationships. And it's We're We We're a normal family. We got our highs and lows. Um We got We got dysfunction. We got function. You know, it's We've got it all. But there's something in there that's like we know what we can that we can count on each other. We know that with that that is at the core. I want to I want to look at that as like the model for what is possible even inside something like a company, even in something like the Strava community, that that that's happening, that people are building relationships. So, if Strava is like what is it all about? It's about motivating people to be active through the relationships they have with other people. And you returned to the company several years after Anna passed. Mhm. That that section between Anna passing and you returned to the company, you you you almost referenced being somewhat disorientated in times of not knowing I Were you Were you double-guessing whether to go back to the company? I wasn't thinking of going back. Um No, I wasn't. We had recruited in someone to replace Mark as CEO. Uh So, Mark stepped down in May of 2017, so just a few months after Anna passed away. I wasn't thinking about returning at all. I was, you know, I was I was That was a I knew I had to discover what was next, but I wasn't considering that it was going to be returning to Strava. So, what got me closer was that Strava started to need some help. Um by 2018, I step in as interim CFO and head of people. Um by the middle of 2019, we're looking at a pretty challenging environment for the company. We were um we're about 100 200 people in terms of team size. We were not profitable. Um and we had to figure out a way to get to sustainability very quickly. We were not able to raise capital at that time uh given the state of the business. And so, we made a decision to make a leadership change. And I what I recall from the conversations with the board, I want to characterize it as like I feel like I was the least bad of all the bad options cuz there weren't very many good options at that time. We weren't going to be able to recruit someone in given the state of the company. I don't know if I was ready to dive back in. This is I'm still really doubting whether what my place is right now. But there was one thing that Mark and I were convinced about, which was inside what we had what was there, there was a great company. We had at that time 50 million people in the community. So, 50 million registered athletes. We were not yet profitable, but we what we November 2nd, 2019, my second day back leading the company, we get up on stage and we say, "Here's here's the path back. This is how we're going to do this. We're going to focus nearly 100% of this company on our customer, and that's the person who wants to lead an active life. That's the athlete. We're going to build this for them. And we're going to we're going to build something so good that they're going to pay for it. And that's the subscription. So, we focused the company on that goal to build the best subscription service for the athlete. And the team responded. They dug in. We climbed that mountain. And we did have help with pandemic bringing us a lot more people. We doubled during the pandemic from 50 million to I think we're now we're at 99 million registered athletes. So, we have we the the team knows I love analogies. We had the right sails up when the wind started to blow. We got that tailwind from the pandemic and it it accelerated our business. And so, now we can imagine a very different outcome as a result uh for this company. We were 2019, it was how do we get this back on track? Now, it's how do we make the most of this opportunity? And for me personally, I've had to really rethink everything from what's my purpose? What what what motivates me to be the person who can lead this company? And what I'm reconnecting with is this is what we intended all along is that Mark and I create something that we want to stick with and stay with for decades. So, finding that path back personally out of the abyss that I was in is tied integrally to what Strava means for that future for me. I you know, I don't at all subscribe to the idea that I saved Strava, but Strava saved me. Brought me back from something. And where we have now what we have to look forward to, what we can what we can imagine for the future of the company and the community we're building for is a much much richer experience doing more for athletes all the time, investing in what they're like they'll be able to experience years from now. How it will be a part of their active life for as long as they live because we've built sustainability into the core of the business. One of the Yeah. So, one of the really difficult things in 2019 when you're changing the the fundamental model of the business under the pressure of a cash crunch as they call it, where cash is running out cuz you're not profitable and you can't raise, is you got to let some people go. And it sometimes feels like a bit of a contradiction of values that when you're a family, you know, you have that kind of family community connection. You really care about the people, but then there's got to be a decision at some point to say goodbye to some of them unvoluntarily and for the greater interest of the company. You you had to do that, right, in 2019? Yeah, that was November 1st. So, November 2nd was how we're going to get this company back to winning again. November 1st was we have to let in that time it was a little over I think 32 people go out of out of the 200 or so that were there. So, uh really tough way for your first day back on the job. But what was even harder was that the deep wound that it created in that family, that sense of we didn't think this would happen here. How come we didn't know? Um that feeling of can I trust leadership? And they didn't know me. I wasn't I wasn't like I was a house I was not around nearly for for most of the people in the company at that time. They weren't hired during the time that I was the CEO the first time. They knew that I was a founder. They knew I'd been helping out as an interim CFO, but I wasn't really a presence for in in leadership for them. So, uh there was just the basic level of needing to rebuild trust, needing to say, "Not only do we have a plan, but you're you're a really important part of the plan. And here's how I show that you can trust me or here's how I want to build a relationship so that over time you will trust me." That period of time in November and December and January, I remember I think just the the level of how much we thought about every word we said was aimed at the objective of getting people to believe again. Compared to today, where I think people believe, and maybe what we're changing what what we focus on now is getting them to understand what our potential is. They believe that we are going to be successful, but I think we today were I focus so much my effort making sure people connect with what our what our potential really is and how we're going to get there. Whereas in in 2019, it was all about believing we even had one, a future. Today, your the company looks very different from in some respects to what the company that you and Mark set out to build. There's now hundreds of people. When you started out, you wanted 20 or 30 in this company. You weren't going to do what you did last time. Yeah, um and we do talk about that. It's like this is very different than what we had imagined. You know, something that was additive to it's additive in a very different way, but something that where we could by and large not give up so much of our personal life for the sake of the company, the what we're creating. And yeah, it it is consuming. And that so, what part of that is, well, this is what we should have expected if we were going to be successful. It's just a given. You have to do it this way. And what part is it you need to create the structure that so that you maintain that measure of I'm still Michael Horvath apart from Strava. Strava is not my 100% of my identity. That's something I struggle with. Um and it's really important because I don't think I'll be as good a leader if my identity is completely wrapped up in this company. I need to have that level of commitment that says, "I'm here. This is super important to me, but I have to be myself. I cannot be define myself as this is the the thing that makes me who I am." What's the risk? Well, for someone who's a rather emotional person, you'll bring your emotion to the decision in a in an unhealthy way if your identity is wrapped up in the company. So, what I strive for is thinking what is in the best interest of Strava. And I like when I wake up in the morning, I ask myself the question, "What am I doing today to help connect people to the full potential of what we can create?" And that sometimes is it's the obvious things, making sure that we're we have the right set of priorities, executing against the longer-term strategy, not um churning people around with different ideas, limiting how many things I throw into the room. Some days it's about do we have the right team? Do we have to add someone or take someone away from the team? Those are hard choices for someone who's pretty I call it a I say emotional. I I have a lot of feeling. Um and so, that's the part of it that I feel like I suppress a lot is like I can't feel as much. I can't let myself feel everything I want to feel because I feel it will come out in ways that are not healthy, not in the best interest of the company. So, what gets me through that is like, well, that's not this is me as the CEO of this company. It's not me, Michael Horvath. That's another person who will live on. I'm not going to be the CEO forever. So, I will have a life that's my life. And what is that life? What what is in that life that is mine, that isn't the company's? Um one thing is for everyone in the company knows this. I love to cook. Mhm. It's it's I feel like it's an incredibly valuable creative outlet. I love to cook for other people. There's nothing more better than to imagine a meal, design it, think of it think it through, get all the ingredients, make the dinner, and have your friends or your family sitting around a table and enjoying what you've created. That for me, that is that is part of my identity. And so finding like that's that's that's a core belief in you you you got to give some time for that. You got to you got to invest in that. You you you create the space for it as a way to say it's still there's still a part of me that's not the company. Has that specific issue of identity evolved or changed in you since Anna passed? Yeah, um it's a really really interesting and like that that the way I think about it is I had to not rediscover who I am. I had to define who I am after my life with her. I was dramatically changed by my life with her. I don't go back to being the person I was without her. I am somebody who is now discovering who am I as the survivor of that life with her. Um that doesn't happen overnight. I think my first inclination was to try to make it happen as quickly as possible. Get on with it. Find find out who you are and I think well at least what I learned was you you can make some pretty you what you think are good choices or good moves and you realize it's not you that's not you. That's not the what you you're you're still thinking of the life you had and wanting to recreate, find, fill the hole that's missing. You know, the deep wound you're trying to sort of fill that with something. When there's something yet to be discovered about what you really who you really are on the other side of this. So as I said, I wasn't thinking at all of going back to Strava joining, you know, coming back to the company. I wasn't thinking of starting another company. I didn't know what it was going to be. I imagined it was going to be something like uh deep sense of rescuing people somewhere. Like this idea that what I I couldn't save my wife, but I'm going to go find other people to save. But that isn't it. That was just that again was like this idea that I'm trying to solve the hole in my heart by finding people I can help. And what I've though it wasn't that what I chose or how I thought I would get that sense of purpose again, that sense of who I am. It is through Strava. It is through running this company and connecting back to what we tried to create, the idea we had in 1995, the thing we came back to in 2006, the way in which we've built this team around our ABCs, what the future we can have, the the the company that we will be in 20 and 30 years. I can contribute something to that now and that's what is that is where where I have found that sense of completeness again. So we have a closing tradition on this podcast, which is the previous guest writes a question for the next guest. Oh, so so clever. Okay. What should the average person optimize their life for if their goal is fulfillment? Said another way, how is fulfillment achieved? I believe we are what we do every day. And what I mean by that is that it's not the big moments. It's not the thing we strive for for several years and achieve at one moment in time or the big trip we take or call it the peaks that actually give us the most meaning. They are important. But what really defines who we are is what we do every day. And so if what you do every day is put a little effort into being active, being kind to the people who are important to you in your life and the complete strangers, if that's how you walk through life, then that's where you're going to find the meaning. So fulfillment I believe comes from being intentional about what we do every day. Amen. And Kudos to you. You said it correctly. You said that you don't realize that you then have you then have that impact on others. Well, I've have a podcast and tens of millions of people download it and and I bang on about the fact that I changed. And and what that does for people who are struggling like I used to struggle with all these false starts in their fitness journey is it lets them know that it is also possible for today to be the day where you where you begin that journey in your life. And again, if you think about the catalyst there, that that Strava moment at the start of my journey and how many tens of millions of people have now heard me talk about this, um it's incredible that the ripple effect across the ocean by one small catalyst. So thank you. Thank you. As you might know, Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast and Crafted are a jewelry brand and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry. And this piece by Crafted, when I put it on, for me it represents courage. It represents ambition. It represents being calm and loving and respectful and nurturing while also being the antithesis of that, seemingly the antithesis of that, which is sometimes a little bit aggressive with my goals and determined and courageous and brave. The really wonderful thing about Crafted jewelry is it's super affordable. It looks amazing. The pieces hold tremendous meaning and they are really well made.