Stop Treating Your Donors Like Donors!

[music] Hey, welcome back everybody. It's another episode of the nonprofit show. Interesting. Our guest today, Mary Krogan's gonna say there's no such thing as a donor and we're like shocked here on the nonprofit show. We can't wait to hear what Mary has to say. So, we're delighted that you're joining us, Mary. We get to have so such amazing guests every day because we have great partners and they include Bloomerang where Mary joins us from, American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, your part-time controller, Third Sector Company, and JMT Consulting. I'm Julia C. Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. And I just want to mention that we've been um running our global edition of the nonprofit show now for a couple months. really interesting perspectives from people that do nonprofit work and NGO work around the world. We had a riveting guest on earlier in the month from South Africa who runs an organization that deals with human trafficking. Uh fascinating stuff. And so um if you're an organization that's thinking about expanding or you do work across borders, um check out our Global Edition episodes. They're just wonderful. Mary Krogan, hey, we loved having you on so much for the first time and then we were like, we got to get her back on because you are fascinating and uh you really were able to share with us a lot of data and information that you and your cohort have have been able to put together and and lead. Talk to us about that work, Mary. >> Absolutely. Well, first of all, thanks for having me back. I'm really excited to join you again. Um, the team at Bloomerang is constantly uh engaging with the market and and doing research so we can really understand um not only what makes and and motivates donors, but also trying to uncover opportunities for nonprofits. We've, you know, we do big reports like the giving signals report. We've got our generational giving report, our mission unstoppable reports, but we're also doing monthly and quarterly pulse surveys into our customer base um and and the market as a whole and uncovering some nuances and best practices that we can bring to to the nonprofits that we serve. So we we take that that um role very seriously and and feel that it's our job to uncover what's working and what can be most effective fun from a fundraising standpoint and share that with uh with the nonprofit community. >> You know, I want to call you out on two things that I don't think a lot of people realize is that um Bloomerang always gives of gives this information out to the community. It's not just strictly for your clients. And that's really huge because most organizations that do in research because it's expensive. They don't want to share that out, right? I mean, to the even to their competitive set. Um, they want to be, you know, holding that tight, that information tight. And then the other thing that I've really learned about you all over the last couple years is that how much you as an organization invest in other organizations that are doing research. Um everything from the effectiveness um uh >> oh the fundraising effectiveness project >> fundraising I always get that first [laughter] >> um you know you're that you all are investing in this and and I think that's really it's really powerful and I just want to say as somebody in the sector thank you because um I know on the nonprofit show we really look at this information and it really it's it's just amazing and and Um, so yeah, it's really cool that you all do this. So without further ado, you know, as we've been talking about how great you are and what you guys are doing, what the heck have your are you learning here? Um, because there's a lot. We only have 30 minutes, but what's data saying about donors? >> A lot actually. Um, you know, we partnered with the Harris Poll back in March and we surveyed just over a thousand donors and uh several hundred fundraisers and our goal was we really wanted to understand what's actually driving donor behavior now um and we published the giving signals report um at that time and we just recently did a deeper um dive if you will into the data set and we looked at donor response responses based on some demographics like region and household income and gender instead of treating it all as one group. >> And there's a through line here and you touched on it is there's no such thing as the donor and and the data proves that. >> Yeah. It's so interesting and I I mean when when you and I were talking um off camerara last time you were on um you did mention that you were going to be really digging into some of this information and I remember uh my producer Kevin Pace and I when we got off um the episode that day, we were like, "Holy cow, this is going to shake things up because of of digging down as deeply as you did." And so really interesting interesting stuff and I'm just delighted that we could we could have you back to talk about it. So first off, what's up with the Midwest? Because there's a comment in here that says the Midwest speaks different fundraising languages and we're always hearing about the West Coast and the East Coast and then they come together and what is it that you saw or found, I should say? Yeah, there's a couple of really interesting um dimensions to this. Um and we can start with reg. I'd love to talk about income in a minute, too. But, you know, the Midwest is definitely speaking sort of a different fundraising language, right? We found that donors in the Midwest, they sit basically at the bottom of nearly every sort of identity or belonging motivator that we queried about. They're the least likely to expect to give more this year. They came in at 45%. In comparison, the West came in at 62%. And they're the least moved by being part of something or the sense of belonging to something. And contrast, good example, they came in at 28% on those kind of statements. And my peers here in the Northeast came in at 43%. So, it's not that they're not giving less, but this kind of coastal join a community language isn't landing with them. Um, and I think what this points to is if you're speaking to a Midwest audience, you need to approach them with really concrete need and demonstrate outcomes and not lean so heavily into the identity or belonging language. So, if you think about it, you can think of this as having a regional variation where for the Midwest, you're leading with, you know, $50 stocks um one weekend backpack of food for a child that might otherwise go hungry. Whereas, if you're talking to someone here in Boston or on the West Coast, focusing in on, hey, you're part of a community that refuses to look away, that kind of messaging would resonate, >> right? that join us and and be part of a solution versus this is what you your this is what your action will do. >> I find that fascinating. I mean like that's like end of show right now. That's really Mary. I have to really think about that. >> Yeah, it it we it caused us to stop and think about it for a moment too. I was just talking with Annne Felman, our CMO, yesterday about the results and um you know she's in Minneapolis and one of the things that she pointed to is that you know there's been a lot of um negative press about nonprofit organizations and um uh lack of trust and what have you in those organizations in in that geography. So it makes sense that there's a more of a focus on okay be transparent tell me what my money's going to do. what how are the funds being used versus talking to someone in let's say Los Angeles or or here in in New York that you know a message around be part of something join like-minded individuals in in making a change in your community two different approaches um that are equally effective >> fascinating and um of all the things that you could have said I wouldn't have selected that as even an option right? You know what I mean? And so that's why I love that you all have you've looked into this and that you're studying this because we could be navigating through a process that we think is what you need to be doing and and in effect turning off opportunities. Um, okay. So that was like a barn burner and let's so let's go on to this next issue that it has always been there and you just talked about it a moment ago and that's the issue of trust >> and and understanding how that and it aligns with giving obviously that they're on the same curve. What did you find out about this? Yeah, 100%. And that's something that I think all of us in in the nonprofit space, we recognize that relationship between trust and giving. But it's really interesting when you see it start to manifest an actual research and data, right? Um we found that the West >> is is the most is both the most trusting region. They came in at 86% trust nonprofits to use funds effectively versus the national um uh number. And they're also the most generous. They're expecting to give more this year. 62% reported that. So there's definitely a sense that trust is sitting upstream of the ask and and it multiplies everything that follows. And you know, you can have a great appeal. It can be beautifully written, wellcrafted, well executed, but if there's a low trust relationship there, it's still not going to perform right. So you need to treat uh treat transparency as a fundraising activity, not just a compliance moment. Like we've talked a lot about that. And also, you know, is how important it is to close the loop on every gift and report on what that last gift did and is frankly the most persuasive input um you can offer in order to generate that that next gift. So we definitely saw some differences from a geography perspective there as well. >> So when I hear you saying that um you know that response to your get to gifts and to your donors engagement um it sounds to me like you're saying that that helps build trust. It's not just a oneanddone thing that as you're navigating a relationship, whether it be digital or in person, you still got to be communicating these impacts. >> 100%. 100%. And then, like I said, there's some geographical variations there in terms of just how important uh that can be. >> That's absolutely fascinating. I know I know this is like an off-the-wall question, but um do you can you tie this this data point that says that they're planning on giving more um to the economics of the region? Yes. So, let's talk about income because that was probably for me one of the first things we noted in our internal discussions that I thought was um pretty counterintuitive to what you might expect. So, we looked at different income bands and we saw the biggest difference between households with less than $50,000 a year annual income versus uh those that have 150,000 plus. And you would expect that, right? But here's here's what is really interesting. That lower end ban in terms of income, they are more motivated by emotional >> outreach and messages. um uh statements like people need more help now than ever versus the higher household incomes. There's a pretty significant difference there even though it's that higher income segment that's actually increasing what they're they're giving. Um so it was interesting because that really strong emotional lever and those those big wallets are actually kind of pointing in opposite directions which we really didn't expect. Um and it it prompted a little bit of discussion internally because you know there's a there's there's an ethical edge here, right? So you know this idea of using a scarcity message with an audience who is already financially stretched >> even though the data is telling you it works isn't something that you want to enter into lightly. And if you're going to pursue something like that, you really want to pair um any sort of the need is real appeal to that audience with a truly genuine message that and give what's right for you. And we talked also about the fact that individuals in those lower income um uh bands are frankly feeling feeling the pinch more so than anyone right [laughter] now given our economy is. and and they can relate to the needs that others have and they they might even be feeling some of that in their own family and their own communities. So, it really resonates deeply with them. But you need to be careful and intentional about how you make an ask with that group. >> And I think the the through line here when you're looking at all these different dimensions is truly that there's no single the donor, right? I mean, we're all individuals, but we treat donors like a single entity a lot of the time. And in doing so, we may actually be hurting our our fundraising efforts. >> Um, we're talking about geography a moment ago, too. We found that when we look at all these different patterns and stack them one on top of each other, um, there's, you know, folks in the West that are middle inome and female. Those are the ones who where identity and belonging and urgency messaging it's calibrated to them because that's what a lot of nonprofits are leading with is calibrated to them almost by accident but then in contrast those messages are not converting as well with like we talked about the Midwest but also highcapacity donors and men so there's a the key in all of this I think is really understanding some of these patterns >> recognizing that you need to think about how you engage with these segments differently, >> right? So, I think that's absolutely fascinating because that is going to upend a lot of people when they think about their marketing and and how they're achieving it. Talk a little bit more about this high-capacity donor and especially when they're male. um they're not going to be moved by a story. And storytelling has been, it seems to me, at the center of marketing in the in the nonprofit sector. It gets just hammered into us all the time. Tell a good story. Tell a good story. >> Um so what does that look like? What did your data, you know, help you uncover when it comes to those those highcapacity donors that frankly are more male? >> It was interesting. We looked at that 150k plus segment and it's clear that they want proof, not just a moving story, right? They're more moved by things like third party ratings like Charity Navigator, Charity Watch. They came in at 41% look to those third party ratings versus 29% for the average, right? And they're notably less less moved by those emotional framings. even things like the government isn't helping enough. That was a huge spread um across the income brand uh bands. So those high those those individuals that have the potential to be your high capacity donors, they behave like a skeptical evidence-driven buyer, right? And they're they're not necessarily emotional givers. So, you got to lead your major gift cultivation efforts with proof like ratings and audited outcomes and measured ROI and impact statements. That's what's really going to resonate with them. >> Wow. So, again, this is like off the cuff cuff, but what would you um think of a strategy for when you have um a couple, one that maybe is female and they're still in this high capacity donor band. Um, it sounds to me like what you're saying is that the female is going to hear be more responsive to the storytelling and the emotional part where the male might not be. And yet they're the two are going to have to come together to agree on some sort of gift. >> Sure. I mean, when you think about your the donor, a lot of times you are talking about a household, which >> Yeah. >> Right. >> So, um, >> you really need to test into it. You have to figure out well what resonates with my audience with my donor base and and and get a read on how they perform or what's going to move them because you don't know in a household. It could be the the wife, it could be the husband, it it who knows making the financial decision when it comes to giving um and who's an influencer. So, um, I think it's really important to take these insights and kind of look at them in the context of what you're doing today and your what you know about your donor base and and start testing some things out to see if you can move the needle when it comes to your fundraising. It's absolutely riveting because um you know as we look at this great wealth transfer and as we are working with more dual income households these are real questions that have to be answered. >> Sure. >> Right. You you can't just wait and and hope that that uh kind of comes about. Okay. So we've already started talking about male versus female. What are some of those other things especially when it comes to trust? I am really interested in this Mary. >> So yeah, this was a we actually had a good chuckle on this actually when we started looking at the data like well of course men and women are approaching this stuff differently because we're very different um uh individuals. Um and I think trust is pro out of all the dimensions we looked at the trust piece was the one that kind of really stood out is like okay this is where the two are are diverging in sort of a meaningful way. So what we found was that trust matters to both but they get there they arrive at a sense of trust differently. So women, we're moved more by proof of impact than our male counterparts. Um, meaning for instance, transparency. For women, that came in at 74% as a factor. 65% for male. Not that transparency is not important to men, but it's more important to women. Matching gifts came in at 81%. Males 74%. interesting >> and being told the impact of their gift 93% for women. So that's a big one when it comes to building trust with your female donor base. >> Men when we looked at at what motivated them and where the deltas were with women, relevance and endorsement really stood out. So, >> men getting a recommendation from someone in their personal or professional network about a nonprofit or um also what was important to them in building trust was being contacted and engaged through channels that they prefer to communicate through more so than women. So, those were two really interesting insights that came out of the data. And I think what it points to is you need to kind of build both roads into your donor journey rather than trying to optimize in favor of one versus the other. You know, if you create segments male versus female, with females, closed loop reporting, matching gift visibility is should be part of that path, that journey as you nurture those relationships. And with men, focus on things like peer and ambassador type programs and make sure you're targeting them through channel preferences that they've stated, through surveys that you might have done, what whatever it might be. Um, but yeah, really interesting dynamic there. >> So, um, the thing that's stands out to me is that profession, I'm going to call it professional endorsement or thought leader, community leader. Um, could you determine if any of that was from the community versus digitally? Um, and because I'm thinking of like the influencer models that are being used um throughout social media. >> The way the question was stated, it was less about digital and influencers and more about their circle, their their professional circle >> or and their personal circle, their friends. >> Yeah, that is something I would not have guessed. And if >> yeah, >> if that was something to measure, I would have thought it was much more female centric. >> Interesting. Right. >> Exactly. >> Really, really interesting. So, I'm thinking about does that mean, you know, we need to be highlighting our boards more and the people that that, you know, our community leaders that support us are doing that quote unquote testimonial. This is why I support this nonprofit. I mean, what does that look like? >> Yeah, that's a great tactic. That's a great strategy right there. Um, bringing your we talk about it in the forprofit world as as bringing your customer voice into your communication >> and and having your customers talk about why they work with your organization. The same principle applies here. If you have great relationships with your donors, have them become part of your voice, part of your story. first person narratives around why they're choosing to support your organization. >> Yeah. Really interesting. You know, um in my community, um our public, uh television station does that. They they they seem to get all different types of people from our community, not just like the, you know, the highly visible, but you know, school teacher, a small business owner that that stand up and say, "This is why I support, you know, um public public TV." Um, and I find it very compelling. >> It really is. And you think about that Midwest segment we were talking about earlier. um bringing that to bear in your communication with folks in that region if you're you know working nationally or even if you're a local nonprofit in the Midwest recognizing that okay to build trust and restore trust in the nonprofit community um I I need to convey to folks that we are a trustworthy organization and there's no better way to do that than through their peers. So what I hear you saying is that if there's a trust issue, maybe not even in our own community, it could be somewhere in our nation that's impacting all of us. It's not just specific to our nonprofit. Is that is that fair to say? I >> I I think it is. I think we're definitely seeing um the trust and concerns about trust with nonprofits uh emerging in certain pockets in certain geographies at least based on on this data and and that was evident from a from a Midwest perspective. There's been other um research published recently that talks about trust in nonprofits and at a national level it's it's incredibly strong and I believe that to be true. But you know, you know your community, you know your audience. Um, and taking a pulse just like we've done here with this survey on a national level. >> Great opportunity for nonprofit to survey their donors um and get a sense of where they're at on some of these um uh profile points so they can tailor the work that they're doing accordingly. >> Yeah. Really interesting. you know, um, you just said something that's riveting because I don't think I've ever been asked that. >> Interesting. Yeah. >> As a donor, right? I mean, I I mean, going through all this and decades and decades and decades of supporting different groups in my community, when we're when we get asked about things, it doesn't seem like we ever talk about that that. >> Wow. Yeah, that's very interesting. Well, this is fascinating. I I've really enjoyed having you on another episode of the nonprofit show. Um, and yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Bloomerang for making these investments. These things are expensive. Um, you don't partner with Harris to get, you know, on the cheap. These are these are really expensive and they take a lot of time. They take a lot of thought. Mary Krogan's been with us. She's the vice president in brand marketing at Bloomerang. Mary, how would we get more of this information and access to some of this thought leadership that that you all over at Bloomerang have been doing? >> Sure. Um, before I give you the URL, just one final point. I think the takeaway here, just remember as a nonprofit, one sizefits-all appeals isn't wrong. It's just narrowing your focus, right? and um you're likely appealing to a profile that doesn't represent your entire database. So, if you do nothing else before your next appeal, segment and test some different messaging strategies based on these insights and shape shape these into into your program as as as appropriate. Um, if you go to bloomerang.com, you can search on giving signals report and you'll then have access to our full report as well as blog posts that we're releasing as we do our incremental um, deep dive. So, um, I hope everybody takes the takes a moment to download the report and uh, can glean some some great insights from it. Yeah, I think it's just brilliant. And I think it's um I think a lot of times, Mary, I talk with nonprofits and they get so frustr frustrated because they work so hard to put together a package and market and they they really, you know, believe they're doing the right thing and strategic and it doesn't work and they don't know why. And there's just nothing more frustrating. So stepping back as you said, looking at this first, looking at this information first and then navigating forward I think can make a world of difference. So thank you for sharing with us today. >> Of course, happy to be here. Thank you. >> Yeah, really interesting. Again, bloomerang.com, go to their website, you'll be able to find a lot about the different research they're doing. As Mary mentioned, I think what's really interesting about this study that they've done is that they're continuing to dig down into what the data is saying. And so those blog posts um can really drill down into some of the different points that um Mary and I have been talking about today. I find it riveting. Sometimes when you get a report, it just is overwhelming because it's so much. And that's what I like your approach. how I like your approach is that it's taken some of these concepts and kind of broken them down a little bit more. So, um I >> yeah, I find the blog posts have been really great for me to kind of get one concept and really drill down into it. Mary Krogan, you're welcome back anytime. >> I would love to come back. We're going to do our third phase sort of drill down uh here towards the end of October and I'll let you know what we find. >> Yeah, we need to hear this. Super super cool information. Hey, you know, Bloomerang's been with us since the beginning last Friday. We separate we separated we celebrated our 1,600th episode 1,600 episodes of the nonprofit show. Bloomerang's been with us since the beginning as has uh uh American Nonprofit Academy staffing boutique, your part-time controller, third sector company, JMT Consulting, and Inuit QuickBooks. These are the folks that stand behind us and uh really support us so that we can have amazing people on like Mary Krogan today. So I wanted to make sure that we we touch base with you on that. As we end each and every episode of the nonprofit show, we leave with this message and it goes like this. To stay well so you can do well. We'll see you again. [music]