Stop Looking At Your Phone - It’s KILLING YOU | Dan Schawbel on Impact Theory

The research shows that people should have some alone time and then some time to collaborate or be with other people. And the healthy balance of both is really important. If you're constantly around other people, right, the the new research shows that open offices are bad for human interactions. So if you're not getting your alone time, if you're always hearing and seeing people in the office, you're very distracted. But if you're not getting that and you don't get any human interaction, that extreme can hurt you as well. So men are lonely, introverts are lonely, uh and then younger people are are lonier than senior citizens. It's it's really remarkable and I think it's partially because of technology because I think it's hard to be very empathetic and have a strong connection if you don't see and hear someone for a long period of time. And people default to using their devices, right? And so people tap their phones over 2,600 times a day. They look at their phones every 12 minutes. Um, they're using their phones all hours. They're sleeping with their phones, which isn't healthy. And so, we just have to be really smart about how we're using this technology. And what I say in the book and the core of what I'm trying to get across is use technology as a bridge to human interaction. Don't let it be a barrier to the very relationships that you need to survive. It's not just about work. It's about survival. Hey everybody, welcome to Impact Theory. Our goal with this show and company is to introduce you to the people and ideas that will help you actually execute on your dreams. All right, today's guest is a New York Times best-selling author and one of the most absurdly prolific writers of our time. By the numbers, this guy is absolutely off the charts. He's written over 6,000 articles that have been read by over 10 million people. He's interviewed 2,000 people for Forbes magazine alone, published over 40 groundbreaking research studies, and surveyed over 90,000 people from 20 different countries. He's been featured in over 1,200 media outlets, given some 2,000 interviews himself, created the largest aggregator of workplace research in the world, and his personal branding blog is the most syndicated career resource in America. His book, Promote Yourself, was also named the number one career book of 2013 by the Chicago Tribune, and his book, ME2.0, was named the number one career book of 2009 by the New York Post. He currently writes for or has previously written for some of the most prestigious publications on the planet including Time, Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, the World Economic Forum, and Business Week to name but a few. His avalanche of bonafides is far too long to list, but he's no stranger to best of lists. He's been on Inc. magazines 30 under 30, Business Insiders 40 under 40, and Business Week's 20 entrepreneurs you should follow. So, please help me in welcoming the man who has been cited in over 50 books, the best-selling author of Back to Human: How Great Leaders Create Connection in the Age of Isolation, Dan Shaw. [applause] What's up, brother? How you doing? So happy to be here. So happy to have you, man. And the place that I want to start is with fulfillment. You kicked your book off with that which I thought was awesome. It's one of my absolute favorite topics to talk about because I think it's so important. You even take the time to define it in the book. So define that for people and why did you start the book there? I started the book with focus on fulfillment because it's really making sure that you are personally and professionally fulfilled in all aspects of your life that you feel very grounded that you feel very proud of yourself and once you are fulfilled you can be a role model to other people you can help steer them in the right direction whether that's with your leadership or just in their own careers and but if you don't have yourself straight if you don't know your values if you don't know your purpose if you don't really know where you want to go, then they're not going to be able to come with you and they're going to be stuck in their own careers. So focus on yourself first and then when you figure yourself out, you can then meet with them and really understand what they're looking to do in their career and how you can best support them. So fulfillment is personal and professional. It's everything that you hold dear in your heart. So you brought up values. Let's talk about that. Do you see it as a process of discovery? Do you see it as a process of definition? A bit of both? like what does that look like? I think through life you experience many different things. So the best way to figure out what you want to do in your life and to figure out what your values are is to have many experiences. For me I was very fortunate because when I was 13 I had my first job. I was a a caterer at my local temple in Newton, Massachusetts. And through that experience I got to learn the most important skill which is being able to manage and work with other people. It's why EQ will always become more important in our world is because if you understand how to work with other people, you not only learn how to manage and lead, but you learn a lot about yourself and how you operate and how you can relate to yourself and understand your place in the world. And so for me, uh by knowing that you start to understand, okay, what's most important to me? What do I stand for? Well, for me, I want to be a resource for other people. I want to add value to people's lives. I value intelligence. I value thoughtfulness, which I think is is extremely important. I think the smartest people are the most thoughtful, the ones who are thinking about every little thing. The people who are putting the all that work into understanding who you are, what you represent, and being able to to relate and and connect with you on that human level like you do with reading because you read everyone's book before you have them on. You have a better sense of who they are. You can relate to them. You can ask the right questions and form stronger bonds. And that is so important. And yet a lot of people are not willing to put that level of effort in into really understanding who they are, what they represent and what the other person wants so that they can deliver for them. So I find that this is a a big sticking point point for people and one of the things that I get hit up on all the time is what that process looks like. So how do you begin to break that down? So you gave us a couple examples there of questions that you can ask yourself, but did you journal this stuff? like how did you begin to identify those things that you value? And then maybe even more importantly, how did you pick the ones you were going to put your stamp on and say like they've crossed some sort of critical threshold of not just I care about it or not just that I value it, but that I value it enough that it becomes one of this subset of things that I care about that I'm really going to invest in. Self-awareness is a huge part of this. Do you think you can develop self-awareness? I think that we need to spend a lot more time with ourselves in order to be able to invest and support other people at the highest levels. So if you spend time with yourself, you start asking yourself the big questions. So one of the questions that I've recently asked myself is what really motivates me now and what motivated me in the in the past. So what motivated me in the past I call I call it the dark side of motivation. I think that everyone has a light and a dark side. So, dark side is I need an enormous amount of validation in my 20s to cover up for my uh you know teenage years of being bullied non non-stop by you know teachers and friends and just about everyone besides my parents. You know, your parents can tell you how great you are, but once you go out into the real world and you start getting made fun of, I had a teacher in elementary school that put me in a closet in middle school. I was put in a locker. That's why I always related to to Screech and Say by the Bell because he was put in a locker. And so I needed so much validation and now I don't feel like I I don't have that dark side of motivation. I have more of the light side which is just doing the right thing by other people. I'm taken care of. I feel validated. I feel very fulfilled. So now as a leader I can offer so much more because I know myself. I've taken the time to really think through why I am the way I am throughout my whole life. all these experiences that I've had, you know, I've growing up just always working with people who are older than me and understanding and asking them what's important to them and how they formulate relationships when they're older and they have fewer closer relationships. So that to me is feedback saying, "Okay, if I know when I'm 60, 70, 80, I'm going to have fewer relationships, who do I want to be friends with and invest in now, knowing that's inevitable in the future?" And so taking that time to to think about who I'm connecting to, who I'm bringing in my life, who I don't want in my life, and making these hard choices is so important. Yet, I find especially with people my age, everyone is not only looking for validation, but they are afraid, they have true fear to leave a relationship because they don't want to be lonely. They have fear of being judged, so they just stay online and are always on their phone. Right? So, it's it's there's so much out there. And in order to cut through the clutter, you need to understand yourself so you can invest the right time and the right people and the right opportunities. And within an organization, once you know yourself, not only can you lead people because people will want to come with you on your journey, but people are more likely to work harder for you and stay with you longer because it costs so much money to replace employees. that if you create an a a culture where people feel like they're part of a family, there's a sense of belongingness, which is one of the employee uh engagement factors that I cover in the book, people are more likely to work hard, establish friends in the workplace, stay with you longer, and outperform. And that's what you really want. I want to go back to your screechers which researching you that came up quite frequently the being bullied the creation of the anxiety which is something I have also struggled with not the bullying but definitely the anxiety and I want to know how you didn't end up in a death spiral from that like that it obviously is gnarly if you've got a teacher putting you in a closet that's crazy town and then to have your own peers putting you in a locker most people I think that really damages their psyche their sense of self, self-esteem, all of it. Like it it really gets gnarly for them. How are you able to to stay positive to cuz you really end up going on to buck against what other people are telling you you can't do and you don't have a problem being the lone wolf. How do you stay positive through all that? I think part of being the lone wolf was being an only child. But I didn't know I had anxiety when I was younger. I was never told that. It runs in my family. And so I had I only figured that out in the past five years and I'm 35. So it's it's it's now into this journey of understanding what being anxious means. And and what's really fascinating is now I'm I've psychoanalyzed my life. I'm like, okay, why do I eat fast? Why do I respond to emails so quick? It's not random. It's because I have anxiety. And so the anxiety, much like technology that I talk about in back to human, is a double-edged sword. So technology can bring you closer together. It can make you more human. It can create more opportunities for you as you've also experienced. Um because I was really on early into personal branding, how to use social media to build it. And that has done incredible things for me. But at the same time, if we're always overusing and misusing this technology can bring us further apart and damage our relationships. Anxiety can be a superpower. We both like, you know, comic books. And so it can actually supercharge your career because it's like, oh my god, like I got to get this done. and I got to get that done. It's that feeling that that anxious feeling that you actually have to do more and more and more and more. But you have to be careful on that because that could drive you to insanity and create more pressure which is bad for your health. You awareness of a problem I think is the first step in solving it. And then it's about thinking about okay where is it maybe damaging me and where is it maybe helping me and maybe I can take that superpower that energy and direct it into something that's going to be really powerful. And I had a few friends growing up that recognized this in me. And I remember when I was 9 years old, I was crying into my pillow and I was like, "Okay, you know, I don't fit in. I'll never fit in." But the butt is the most important thing, but maybe it's because I'm special and someday I'll do something great. So the butt saved me psychologically. And then it was, you know, this long decade um in my 20s of trying to validate me. So all the achievements, all the interviews, all of that. Of course, I was trying to do the right thing and support people, but I needed I needed the dark side of motivation to push me through to achieve excellence at that point. And now I don't need it because I have all the validation. I feel very fulfilled in my life. But I think if you really look at it, the anxiety set me up to being bullied at some respect because people want to bully people who are not only different but are are suffering. People want to pray on the weak sadly. And I don't think that will change in 50 100 years. But it's good to be aware of this so we can we can uh start to to do something about it. and and then realizing that the anxiety could actually supercharge my career and recognizing that and then now in this in my 30s recognizing that if I don't control it it will it could really hurt me and so learning how to control it and manipulate it for a good cause I think is really important. How do you think about the narrative that you tell yourself? And I asked that because I've got to imagine as you slip into the identity of I'm the victim that getting out from under that becomes really hard, but you're super analytical. So I'm wondering if at some point you realize, okay, wait, I have this narrative. It's a narrative that's at least to some degree not serving me. And did you actively begin telling a different narrative? Like how did that work? I think the best change in the narrative happened when my first book came out. I was 25 years old. Uh the every book has been rejected by every publisher besides one. Um the first book came out and my mom gave it to my kindergarten teacher and kindergarten was I was always in trouble and my mom always likes to tell the story about when she gave it to my kindergarten teacher who in her head was like oh we he'll not never amount to anything because he was always in trouble. She started crying and she was just like so thankful and so happy that I was able to do that. And to me that the old version of me, the old story was I was never good enough. I was always in trouble. My maybe I wasn't going to amount to anything. And and so just even hearing that story when parents wouldn't even let me play with their children because I had such a bad reputation. Not because I was a bad person, because my actions made me be perceived as someone that they shouldn't have their kids around because maybe I'll rub off on them. And so everything has played out from worst reputation to let's say one of the better reputations of where I grew up. And so that story has played out in my head and makes me feel very proud of what I've been able to do. Um and so now in my thought process I'm I'm you know more a little bit more of a veteran now and more thoughtful and deliberate about what I want to do. And it's less about the recognition. It's less about the validation. It's less about that the old stories I used to tell myself because I've gotten past that. So, here's what's really fascinating is I've gotten past that and so not having the dark side of of motivation in a sense has demotivated me a little bit. The dark side actually pushes you to work harder. So, I've been thinking about now is maybe the dark side isn't as bad as we make it out to be and as long as it's controlled and we're conscious of it. Yeah, I'll agree with that nice and violently. Um [snorts] I I I think that that's really really under it's it's misunderstood. So people can get in a dark loop and it takes them to somewhere absolutely horrific. But when you balance it, not equally, but I'll call it an 80/20 split roughly, right? So 20% of your time in the darkness, 80% of the time in the light, the beauty, the wonderful things you're grateful for, the, you know, beautiful things you're trying to create and bring into the world. But even just looking at your list of accomplishments, it's crazy, dude. So when I think about that that was partly driven by that like hey I need this um to prove to myself that I'm worthy like it actually ended up in something pretty extraordinary and one thing I want to understand because you have some like for a guy that talks about connection and workplace fulfillment um work life integration when I hear how you came up in your first company with what you did with the marketing um plans I thought that was pretty extraordinary. walk people through like how you get ahead. Like what does that look like cuz you've got a pretty profound story. Yeah. So my first job was with EMC EMC Dal now a multi-billion dollar company and when I was working there I was in the marketing department. I was a nobody. It was my first job out of school. I was like how do I get ahead? And so the senior [clears throat] director of marketing was like okay everyone has to do a marketing plan in my in my department. And I was like, "Oh my god, like I've done marketing plans for many companies during college. I'm gonna do everyone's marketing plan or at least get them started." So I went around and I did everyone's marketing plan. So when they were leaving uh work early, I was still working. I was working in, you know, all day, all night just to do everyone's marketing plan. And what happens when you add that much value to so many people who don't want to do that job? They all love you. It's the best job security you ever get. And then that advances you further because when they get new work, when they get new things, and I love doing marketing plans, too. So, it's not like I hated it. Uh, but actually, a lot of people I've interviewed say if you do the work that other people don't want to do and work that you might not even want to do, you get ahead because you stand up. So, I think it's you work as hard as you can, have as many experiences as early in life as possible, and it prepares you for the rest of your life. And the other thing that I've always thought of is like for you even doing this video or or anything you've ever done in your career when you are 70 you still have that video clip right so I I even posted today a clip of me 10 years ago speaking to one of the original audiences of school in an auditorium talking about how one summer in high school my first internship I made a thousand cold calls selling phone auditing services made no money for the company I didn't like it. I was sitting next to customer service. Everyone was chain smoking. So, it was depressing. But I learned a lot about myself, the importance of sales and that companies require it. And that I wanted to figure out how to sell myself in a new way because this was not how I was going to eventually build a business. And that's part of how I got so good at publicity. It's interesting when you were talking, the most fascinating thing that you said was that you learned a lot about yourself doing those thousand cold calls even though they weren't effective. And I think to really understand Dan Shabel, we're going to have to really dive into this self-awareness thing. I need to know like how much of that can be turned into process. I know some people think that you either have self-awareness or you don't. Um I am a massive cheerleader for it can be developed. But I want to know if you have any insights from a process perspective cuz right now people are listening to this and if they're really paying attention to your story, dude, it's insane what you've done. And it is those moments of, oh, I learned a lot about myself there. And and what I know means is that translates into strategy that you shift, you learn something new, like in that case the PR thing, but what is your process for developing self-awareness? And if you can package that from that time, that would be really helpful. Yeah, I think part of it is you take notice of what people say about your work. So, a lot of people back in my early career were like, "Oh, wow, Dan, this marketing flyer that you developed is really good." So, in my head, I'm like, "Oh, maybe I am really good at this." Because you don't know how good it is unless you get that feedback. That's why, you know, when you're giving feedback to your team and you say, "Hey, what you did or the idea you came up with in the meeting is so great." That validates them. So now they're they have more courage to give you the next idea and they and it validates their way of thinking of saying, "Oh my god, like maybe I'm good at strategy and coming up with ideas." Simple as that. For me, the more feedback I got, the more I realize what I'm good at and what I'm not good at. So did you strategically seek out feedback? I strategically did as much as I could. Let me develop this marketing piece. Let me do cold calling. Let me do all these different things because I don't know any better. So when I am performing these actions and getting this feedback, it tells me what I'm good at and where I should put more of my energy to and where I should divert my energy. So I think that's really important is is knowing not only what you're good at and what you like, but what you don't like. And so look for models, get feedback, and then really really think about what's gone right, what's gone wrong. Almost do a self assessment. Pretend you are a company in a sense and do a real analysis of where you are, what's worked, what's not worked, what you've liked, what you haven't liked. Do you have people write this down? What excites you? I think you absolutely have to write it down, right? Because when you write it down, you internalize it more. Do you just sort of flow style journal or do you go, "Okay, here are the things that I know like known personality traits or known likes, known dislikes." Do you have things that you break it out like that? Yeah. So, I I write down values. I write down goals. What I do is I break it out into a year and then I have future goals and then I have what I'm what I need to do within a quarter, within a month, uh within a week. I I don't go past a week and I don't I don't really go too far past a year because things change so fast. And then I take stock of what's working, what's not working, where I'm getting business results, what you I'm writing this down. I'm saying, okay, you know, my business partner said this about me, customers are liking this. So, it changes how I sell, what I work on, uh, and where I spend time with. And the the real thing I do in terms of energy, I like the word energy a lot because if something's working, you should put more of your energy across that. I'm not going to keep on going against a wall and hurting myself, right? So, if I know that's not working, then I need to switch strategies and focus on something else that works if I want to continue to do what I want to do and move forward. Or I just stop it all together. So, I think that for me it a lot of this is trial and error. If I really examine my life, what has it been? It's been trial and error. And trial and error allows you to gain self-awareness and get to know yourself. And I think you can break it down and write down what turns you on, what turns you off, what you like, what you don't like based on the conversations you have. It's the human element that is so important. You know, if you only spend time alone, it's going to decrease your your creativity. actually you're going to not be as thoughtful about your life and come up with new ideas. Um I we've done research that shows that people are most creative in conversations with other people. People make you more creative, not sitting and looking at a wall, not looking at your computer all day or your device. It's being around people. It's those brainstorm sessions that you have where you get the best ideas because if someone brings something up, another one of your teammates can be like, "Oh, I like that, but have you thought of this?" And that creates the conversation that helps everyone. And I think in terms of self-awareness, self-awareness is not just doing work on yourself and really figuring yourself out, but it's also understanding yourself in the world you live in in in your set, in your home, in your community, in the world, right? as you travel and speak around the world, it's it's coming to grips with who you are based on putting yourself out there in an authentic way, collecting the feedback, writing the feedback down, internalizing it, and then investing in areas that will bring out all of your best qualities. All right. So, I think you may have a superpower in this area, and I want to know how much is just sort of that's how you are, and how much is you've really developed it and can help other people do it. So I keep hearing stories where um you do this massively powerful thing where it's you take something negative and you find a way to learn and grow from it rather than be destroyed by it. So how have you gone how do you get stuffed in a locker? How do you get told it's never going to be successful? How do you get rejected? Dude, the number of publishers that rejected you even after you're a bestseller is is crazy. So you clearly have some mechanism by which you either I didn't even get into my college and early decision that I applied. I interviewed on campus. I wrote them a letter. I got straight A's. You know my last semester my internship at Reebok took me a year and a half. I had to like meet someone who knew someone in the company because only the executive sons and daughters got the internships. It's that's the through line of my whole career is is at first you don't succeed, try try again. So how do you deal with that though as a as a narrative about yourself? like how are you not going this can't be this hard for everybody and which of course would be self-defeating and then you get in this negative loop how do you stay positive so I know you learn the early but right so um I don't fit in I'm an outcast but maybe that means I'm special and I'm meant for something great okay is that is that it like every time you encounter that like it's really hard for me but maybe that means I'm special and I'm meant for something great the mentality changed slightly now now it's I've done all of this everything else is just a bonus but That's only because I've accomplished a lot. So when you were in that struggle period, was it always that phrase that you came back to over and over like I meant I needed a model. A model means I had to go through it at least once. So let's say getting into college, I struggled to get into the college of my choice, but I got in. And then the the Reebok, it took me a year and a half, but I got in. EMC, when I wanted that job, I it took me eight months, but I got in. And I always try and find a way in. And every time I do that, it reiterates, okay, things are not going to be easy, but you will eventually get what you seek, right? And so with all the rejections in everything, in every area, there's been so many rejections, but it gets me through it because I see models. I've tried enough things that have worked that it's it serves as a model of me and an example of what's possible. I believe you always try to learn that yourself or do you go find a model that you've seen work somewhere else and and start from there? I do a lot of research of course like I'm always looking and seeing okay this person they're an author but they're a speaker like how they build their lifestyle to reflect what they enjoy and I take something from everyone but I always at the end of the day have to do something that feels unique to me right so if I post on social media it has to be original if it's a quote from someone it has to be part of an interview I've done it has to feel unique to me and the more the the more you live the more you grow, the more you fall into who you are actually are. So people don't change, they become more of who they are. So keep doubling down on yourself and by by believing in yourself and being authentic and putting yourself out there. What really happens is not only do you become the best version of yourself hopefully, but you'll attract the right people in your life who like you for you. If you continue to uh copy other people or try and be someone you're not or live up to society's expectations, your family's expectations, you lose sight of who you are, and you end up falling in with the wrong crowd that doesn't appreciate you for you because you weren't even you to them. Um, talk to me about productivity. This is an area where I feel like you really have some powerful ultra usable insights. How can people be more productive? And maybe on the tale of that, cuz these felt kind of related to me in in the book, productivity and creativity, um, how do people be more of both? Yeah. So, I've talked to a lot of people about creativity. And in order to change your mind and open yourself up, a few things need to happen. One, you got to change your environment. So, for me, it's walking meetings. It's uh working in different places, traveling to different countries. That opens me up. It makes me see things different. You know, both of us, we've interviewed so many people. So we we are you know we're able to uh think differently uh you know have people who might have conflicting opinions which makes us smarter and sharper and more open. So I think that it's who you're with having people around you who challenge your beliefs makes you smarter and sharper and changing your environment. I think that's the core of creativity in terms of productivity. The f the most important thing is the night before you're planning out the next day. The worst thing that happens is when you wake up and you're like what do I do now? You do not want to do that. So construct your day so it reflects what you want to get out of it. So I believe in work life integration. It's you have let's say three person one to three personal one to three professional goals in a on a daily basis and then you look at your calendar and you build in those activities that are going to let you accomplish those goals. The problem that people have is they look at their calendar, it only reflects their professional life, not their personal life. So if you are if you want to go bowling or to a movie with a friend, put that in the calendar. If you want to have lunch with your business partner, put it in the calendar because people view their calendar and they say this this is my life. I live and die by the calendar. If it's not on the calendar, it doesn't exist. So the calendar has to represent what's going to make you fulfilled. So all the stuff is connected. I'll have, you know, a research goal. I got to do five studies at least a year. I'll have a speaking goal. I want to do at least 10 speaking engagements a year. I want to have a travel goal. And so I to have a travel goal is very easy. All you have to do is before the next year starts, you book a trip. Like I just I'm I'm going to Cuba that was booked last year. So that once you put money down on something, it's a it's a sign of commitment and it locks you in for actually accomplishing the goal for the next year. And so it's understanding your own psychology and then putting together a work schedule, personal activity schedule that best reflects what's going to make you fulfilled and being honest about that. Not just doing work for the sake of doing it. The problem in our culture is it's a burnout culture. People are working more hours, especially with technology. People are working nights, weekends, and vacations. Not having your phone is a new vacation, right? Because there's a guilt feeling. There's a convenience feeling and and an addiction. And so you need to realize that and you need to have time set apart for things that matter to you. And so true productivity is on an individual basis. And if you waste too much time doing things that are not giving you the benefits just because it's a distraction or fun that could hurt you and you shouldn't be complaining if if you do that. So it's it's getting to know yourself. That's why fulfillment is important. It's the self-awareness and then it's putting together schedule to reflect what you want to get out of your day, week, month, quarter, year. Dude, listening to you talk like the subtext is what's fascinating and I really hope that people use this interview as a jumping off point to go way way way into your world. It is so interesting to me the way that you approach things. And what what would you say to somebody who hits a roadblock, their attitude is woe is me, things are against me. And if you look at the situation, it's like, yeah, things really are against you. What do you tell them? I think that you need to stop for a second and look at all the positive things, right? Because you need to get it yourself out of the negative mode. If you're thinking negative, it's going to be very hard for you to step into a new environment, whether it's a new job or or relationship, and make that work because you'll bring that negativity. You won't have the self-confidence to make it work. So, it's about being grateful and thoughtful about everything you have done and being self-aware of what's worked, what's what hasn't worked. And then the most important thing and this has gotten me out of depression. It's really helped me because the last book was rejected by all the publishers and it was ruthless and it put me I was depressed for 4 days and it it sounds like oh only 4 days but like shut the no lights nothing complete blackout. Didn't want to talk to anyone. And the way I got past that was small steps before big leaps. You know small winds digs you out of big ditches. meaning that well I wasn't going to have a book deal in the next few weeks but what could I do to at least give me more validation self-confidence I wrote one article got that published wrote a second article got that published and then I started to get a little bit more traction and excitement for what I was doing again and then I hit up my agent was like okay I'm going to I'm going to redo the book proposal for the fourth time and a book proposal is like 50 pages at least right and so it's the small little wins that give you the confidence to put yourself out there so if you're looking to get a new job, why not do something small first to give you yourself more confidence so in the interview you have a better success rate? So that one small thing you can do is maybe a freelance gig, maybe do someone a favor, something small. And then bit by bit by bit by bit, you gain the confidence and you're showcasing your skills and maybe that person you did the favor for wants to hire you. You just don't know how that plays out. But the most important thing is those small wins add up and give you the confidence, make you more positive, and then when you have to interview, when you have to talk to someone, maybe ask, you know, a girl or a guy out, you're going to perform better. So instead of trying to take this big leap, do the small steps. That's amazing. I'd be super remiss not to talk about loneliness. Um, after reading back to human, one of the things that you talk about like the that it's actually costing governments money because of the ailments for lack of a better word that it brings out in people. One, just give us a brief overview of the pandemic that is loneliness, which is actually really interesting. And then anybody watching this that's in that place, like what do people look out for and how do they get out of it? Yeah. So, I spoke to the former US surgeon general and he said that loneliness is an epidemic in the United States and abroad and that loneliness has the same health risk and reduction of lifespan as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. It's crazy. So, it is crazy. And then in America, half of Americans are lonely. 40% lack uh meaningful relationships. Younger people are actually more lonely than senior citizens. In the UK, it's really bad. They had a minister of loneliness because uh loneliness is costing in terms of productivity companies in the UK over 2.6 uh billion pounds. Uh 9 million people are lonely. Over 200,000 adults haven't spoken to a close friend or relative in the past month. Uh it's just a major problem in Japan. 20,000 people die of loneliness every year. Uh so it's it's a global problem. uh we lack community sadly and I think that if we want to bring each other closer together if we want to prevent loneliness because the people who are the loneliest or will suffer the most are men because they're less emotional they have they have weaker bonds because of that they're less vulnerable which will hopefully change with Louiswis house and many of our other peers who are you know focused on that um I think ending loneliness is tough but doing something about it is essential to our living a healthy and fulfilling life. And how do you do that? It's you put the energy in to harness the relationships you currently have. Parents, siblings, friends, take stock of what you have. It's like customers, right? It's easier to serve customers you already have. Serve the customers you currently have. You know, make them less lonely and as a return, you'll be less lonely. I think one of the the tough things and the reason why we have such a loneliness epidemic, too, is because a third of the global workforce works remote. And I think working remote is great. I work remote, but because of that, I personally have to figure out how to get the human touch because I know it's important clearly. Um, so I think the social engagement is important. And the research shows that people should have some alone time and then some time to collaborate or be with other people and the healthy balance of both is really important. If you're constantly around other people, right, the the new research shows that open offices are bad for human interactions. So, if you're not getting your alone time, if you're always hearing and seeing people in the office, you're very distracted. Um, but if you're not getting that and you don't get any human interaction, that extreme can hurt you as well. So, it's a healthy balance. It's going to be a little bit different from everyone. Like, if you're introvert, you probably need a little bit less. Uh, so men are lonely, introverts are lonely, uh, and then younger people are are lonier than senior citizens. It's really remarkable and I think it's partially because of technology because I think it's hard to be very empathetic and have a strong connection if you don't see and hear someone for a long period of time. And people default to using their devices, right? And so people tap their phones over 2600 times a day. They look at their phones every 12 minutes. Um they're using their phones all hours or sleeping with their phones, which isn't healthy. And so we just have to be really smart about how we're using this technology. And what I say in the book and the core of what I'm trying to get across is use technology as a bridge to human interaction. Don't let it be a barrier to the very relationships that you need to survive. It's not just about work, it's about survival. So I make a huge case for work friendships. Uh because 7% of the global workforce has zero friends at work and half have five or fewer. Yet we're spending so much time at work. The average work week in the US is 47 hours a week and using the technology that expands it. We have work creep into our nights and weekends. And so if you don't like the people you work with, if you don't have a leader you can trust, if there's no sense of belonging, if you don't feel like a family like this feels, you're going to be detached and it's going to you're not going to be able to grow business if you're so busy replacing employees all the time. So we need to start to think about that of creating a really healthy environment for our teams. And then from a personal standpoint, it's about taking ownership of your calendar. It's about thinking about who you want to be friends with forever, who you want to support forever. No man, that it it's so important the area that you're dealing in. And I, as somebody who has now been in the entrepreneur game long enough to watch millennials really come into the workforce, um it's it's been really interesting to see the change from my generation, which is Gen X, um you know, growing up in the 80s with the you know, the the hype around work yourself essentially to death. Um and then to see the shift happen and to see a new attitude and the death of the autocratic leader and coming into something that's much more collaborative. Yeah. Transformational leaders for sure. And seeing the the birth of like purpose and meaning which unfortunately in the beginning of my career that wasn't a thing, right? So um I didn't have a model to you use your words. And so that led me to living the cliche of money can't buy happiness and and then having to fight my way out of that. Um, so it's it's really been fascinating to to see the changes and um, yeah, so hopefully, you know, I'm hoping that this generation, like you said, when technology becomes a tool and not the barrier that we're able to present so many more ideas that people can get the model that they can hopefully avoid some of the traps. But I I think what you lay out for people is just absolutely critical about how to avoid the traps. Um, before I ask my last question, tell these guys where they can dive into your insanely rich world online. Yeah, danshell.com. Uh, so it's s ch a wbel. Cool. Final question. What is the impact that you want to have on the world? I want the world to take the time to experience as much as they can, to be thoughtful about their interactions, to come from a positive place of giving, even if there's some dark motivation. Try and turn it light as soon as you can. And think about when all said and done, the impact that you personally want to have in the world. and use the content, the role models, the um models that you have in front of you to think about how you can achieve that for yourself. Because once you achieve this for yourself, you are going to be a role model for other people and it creates that cycle of helpfulness, the cycle of impact, the cycle of everyone becoming better together. I love that, man. guys. All right, I'm telling you on this one, as you dive into his world, you're going to see something that gets bigger with every like page you turn, every book you encounter, every interview he's done, every article he's written. It really, really is astonishing. And he's got this laundry list of accomplishments because he's really done things that are worthy of celebration. And watching him grow with the people that he's trying to serve is really pretty extraordinary. and you see the truth of what he says is his mission to go with his generation from being the, you know, the student all the way to being the CEO. And it's it's really really fascinating because he makes it so tactical and reading the books and seeing that he has scripts and seeing that there's actual language, questions to ask yourself, interactions to have with other people, it's it's really phenomenal. And it's clearly somebody that is using data, is researching this stuff, is putting things forward, not just as sort of um hypothesis, but is really saying, "We're doing the research, and here's what the data is showing, and letting that guide where he goes and the way that he approaches problems." So often it's very counterintuitive, but when you read it, it just makes sense. And because he's growing as his audience grows, you really get a overarching toolkit that's going to allow you to go in any direction that you want. And I will say as somebody who's actually slightly out of his demographic, I still found it all insanely useful. And so I don't think that by any means um it speaks to anything more than really the title of his book, which is Back to Human, which is something that we can all tap into and all relate. Um I think it's incredibly powerful, man. I will aggressively put a stamp of approval. I think as you go down that rabbit hole, you're going to find just a countless treasure trove of things that you can immediately put to use in your life. So, check it out. All right. If you haven't already, my friends, be sure to subscribe. And by the way, if this added value, please do share it. That means the world to me and it helps us reach more people and have bigger impact. And you know that's what I'm driven by. All right, until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. If you like that episode and you want some more amazing content on mindfulness and connection, be sure to click the link below to see the J Shetty interview. Enjoy and I'll see you guys there. Look at yourself in 10, 15, 20 years time and ask yourself the question, is that where I want to be? And if the answer is no, then you need to find a new path.