Starling CEO: Building a $1.5 Billion Business Against The Odds: Anne Boden | E107

with humiliating reading in the press what had happened. I got fired twice in 6 months. Unless we could raise funding, there weren't going to be any jobs. You had a tough time. It was really damaging to me and my mental health. Tom didn't think I was capable. Nothing was going to stop Starling succeeding. People don't start banks and if they do start a bank, they are probably a billionaire. When I started talking to people about I'm going to start a bank, you know, I could see people thinking I was totally crazy. I hadn't raised a penny. The only money that had gone into the business was my money. And he said, "No, I'm not going to give you 3 million. I'm going to give you 48. I have the privilege of running Starling and it is a privilege and there's lots of things going wrong and lots of pressures on me, but it's a great privilege to have." If you've been listening to this you would have heard the episode I did with Tom Blomfield. He was the former CEO and founder of Monzo Bank, one of the big fintech disruptor banks here in the UK. And during that episode, he also tells us the story of his time at Starling Bank, the rival bank that he co-founded with Anne Boden. And that episode is dramatic. It should be a movie. They talk about their fallout. In the episode, Tom claims that Anne fired 16 members of staff in the same day. So in this episode, Anne wanted to come in to tell her side of the story, but also to tell her story. And it's an incredible story. It's an inspiring story. It's a story that doesn't quite make sense in the fact that she's achieved so much in an industry where she was an underdog at an age when she also admits she is an underdog confronting stereotypes that make her an underdog. And despite the odds being stacked against her, she's built a multi-billion dollar bank here in the UK. It really is a crazy story, one that I believe one day will be a Netflix show. Think about that. Two people came together to take on the banking world. They came together and founded a bank called Starling Bank. They had this major blow up. They separated. Anne starts again. And they both build incredibly successful multi-billion dollar banks individually. It is one hell of a story. It twists, it turns, and it inspires you. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Anne, humble beginnings. Do you think that's a accurate phrase to describe the start of your life? Yeah, it was humble. Um I My father worked in the steelworks. Um my father came home from work with newspapers under his arm, all greasy from, you know, sort of doing hard work. My mom worked in the local department store. Um and we were happy. Brothers and sisters? No, only child. Um my parents married late. My father came back from the Second World War. Um found um his dream wife and they had a really, really happy marriage. And school life and uh I went to the local comprehensive school. Uh it's a very, very new school. Um I was brought up in my grandmother's house, my parents, my grandmother in a older house on the edge of a big, big council estate. And in the middle of this huge council estate, they built this new comprehensive school. And it was not a very good school. It was very new. I was one of the first children to go to university. And to be honest, there was a bit of a stigma from coming from that area and that school. I know you went and I know people that do computer science are smartasses. So you're you're definitely smart, right? Yeah. I think um I did most of my studying myself. The school um couldn't do a lot to help, to be honest. When I had my O levels, I think everybody was quite shocked by how well I'd done. Um but I did most of my studying by, you know, buying my own textbooks and reading myself. And the house wasn't a an academic home. My father left school at 15 at 14, my mother at 15. Um there were no books at home except holiday brochures. Uh we lived to go on holiday. We were very, very happy family. We had a touring caravan and we went all over Europe. Um but it was very unusual for um a daughter of that home to be interested in studying. Why? Um why I was studying or why it was unusual? Why was it unusual for Yeah. I think the um my parents didn't push me. My parents believed were very liberal. You know, they you know, all the kids of the neighborhood sort of hung out in our house. It was a very happy home. Um we were very, very fortunate to have just a probably a little bit more money than everybody living around us. Um but there was no emphasis on on education. Um that was something I did. You know, I went to the local academic bookshop and and I remember sort of taking a book off the shelf, you know, what you do at 14, you know, what subjects do you choose? This is all much This is me choosing these things, not my parents. And you were choosing those subjects because you you enjoyed you intrinsically enjoyed learning or because you wanted to become super wildly successful as a mega entrepreneur? I wanted a job with a briefcase. I wanted a job in an office. I didn't actually know anybody that worked in an office. Um my inspiration was from television. It is very much seeing people on television and seeing that people had jobs in in London, in glamorous places, were doing interesting things and I could do that. And my parents were very supportive. They gave me as much money as I wanted to spend in the bookshop. Um yeah, and they, you know, went out and bought me you bought me a 24-volume set of Encyclopedia Britannica. The only problem was it was 1953 edition. Right, so all my knowledge was somewhat sort of outdated. But it was a great home and we did interesting things and I did well in school and I went to university. And at that point, I'm guessing you didn't have a huge, from what you've said, a desire to become an entrepreneur. I never thought I'd ever be an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurship is something which is quite recent. You know, coming out of school, it was very much I wanted a job that was scientific or um or interesting where I could I actually wanted to be a scientist. I actually wanted to be doing something with chemistry and computers, whatever. And my mom said to me, "You're going to try for one normal job, you know, um apply for a job in a bank." And I did. And the competition for the job was huge. There were thousands of people applying for a job at Lloyds Bank to be a computer um specialist as a graduate computer specialist. And I got the job. So when I got the job, I had to take it. This is post-university. Yeah. Why did you choose computer science at university? And am I right in thinking, because it's still kind of the case now, that that was a very male-dominated subject to choose? Yeah, um it was almost all men. Um my father thought I could possibly be a metallurgist at the steelworks. What's a metallurgist? That you know, studies metals, how metals are are made. Um yeah, um but there was no uh there was no concept at home of jobs for women or jobs for men. Um that didn't really exist. I came from a home where my mother was very capable and my grandmother was very capable. So me becoming a computer scientist and going to um Swansea University to study where there were all men wasn't something that really fazed me. And you go off to the to university, study computer science. You do pretty well at university, I'm guessing. Yeah, okay. Yeah, you did great, I'm sure. Uh and then you get get this job at Lloyds Bank in the in the graduate program and you're there for how long? Uh 4 and 1/2 years. I do 4 and 1/2 years before I quit. Oh, really? Is that a Yeah, I I I had a 4 and 1/2 year thing going on. Right. So I was 4 and 1/2 years at Lloyds Bank. Um you know, great job. You know, so you know, did the branch thing, did all the jobs. Uh and then uh my first boss told me, "You better tone down your aspirations, otherwise you'll get very, very frustrated." Ooh. And that didn't work with me. I was really, really determined that I was going to get on. So I did 4 and 1/2 years at Lloyds Bank. I did 5 years at Standard Chartered Bank. I did 3 and 1/2 years at Price Waterhouse uh studying banks and advising banks. half years at Price Waterhouse, uh, studying banks and advising banks. And, uh, I went to UBS, uh, in, uh, in in the city and then out to Switzerland. Five years out in Switzerland working for a big bank. Uh, joined a big insurance company, worked all over the world, worked in Chicago a bit, uh, and then joined a bank in Amsterdam, ABN AMRO. Um, worked in all sorts of places from Kazakhstan to Uzbekistan to all the places around the world. Yeah, quit again. Uh, spent some time in fintech before going into Allied Irish Banks as chief operating officer. So, that that stint across all of those different banks that you worked in across all of these different territories, how long was that in total? Uh, ooh, 30 years. So, I did, yeah. Mhm. Yeah, I started in 1981 and I I quit to become an entrepreneur um, in 2014. That's very atypical. Oh, yeah, it's a it's very very unusual. I've also done different things in the jobs. I keep meeting people and people go, "I know Anne Boden, she worked in insurance." And I go, "I That's me." And they go, "No, no, no, no, there's a There's Anne Boden and she worked in in She was a computer scientist, she did computing things." Uh, no, no, that that's me. Um, so, I've had a long career doing lots of different things in different companies, but I was a corporate person. Mhm. When I quit to become an entrepreneur, that was something I'd never done. And did you consciously make the decision that I don't want to do the corporate life stuff anymore, I want to start my own business and give it a shot. And when you did that, what age were you? 54. At 54 years old you decide that you want to go it alone and give up all of that corporate stuff and all the the perks and you can say perks, all the perks, the stability, the security of the corporate world and Yeah, well, I was getting up every morning thinking, "Somebody has to do something about this banking industry." I was sort of ex- shamed to be a banker, I wasn't quite comfortable with it. And the banking industry was, you know, hadn't hadn't embraced tech. You know, everything was changing and the banking industry was looking back rather than forwards. And I started thinking, "Look, you know, I've got a bit of independence now, I can do whatever I want. Uh, I really like to do my own business and perhaps I'll start a dress shop. Right? You know, I quite like fashion, you know, perhaps I'll do a dress shop." Mhm. And I realized I know nothing about fashion. I know a lot about banking and what I should do is start a bank. And but nobody ever starts banks. Yeah, I was going to say that's not like her. No one goes from, "Oh, I'll do a dress shop, maybe a bank." Like people don't Yeah, I I Yeah, I The only thing I knew about was banks and how banks are run. And, you know, people who start banks, well, they don't start banks. People don't start banks and if they do start a bank, they are probably a billionaire. Mhm. And therefore, you know, I was very different. You know, and when I started talking to people about, you know, I'm going to start a bank. You know, I could see people thinking I was totally crazy. Of course. You know, first of all, people don't start banks and a 5-ft tall Welsh woman definitely doesn't start a bank. Yes. I mean, I hate to support the stereotypes, but I wouldn't start a bank like if if if I was a, you know, 40-year-old billionaire white male that was 6-ft 10, let alone, yeah, a a slightly shorter Welsh woman. Uh, so, you just want to be cuz I really This is purely for my curiosity here cuz I'm trying to understand how you like, you know, cuz yeah, I don't have the guts. So, um, you're 50 50-odd years old, you're currently in your corporate job. Yeah. And and whilst you're at the job, you start thinking about starting the bank. Okay. And at some point you hand in your resignation. At what point did you hand in the resignation? Was it while you were still in the job and the bank had started moving or did you leave and then start start putting in the foundations? No, I I decided very quickly. I left um, and within weeks I was working on the new proposition. Um, it's only last weekend I started unpacking the boxes. I came back from Ireland, I was in Ireland, um, and I decided, you know, you know, give my notice in, you know, started the whole proposition, um, you know, booked the removal vans to bring me back over and then, you know, put them in the house and immediately went out knocking on doors. Um, it's only now I'm finding some time to unpack those boxes. Wow. How many years later? Uh, seven years. Crikey. So, you you leave, you start knocking on doors. How did you feel emotionally when you leave the the corporate system and you hand in your resignation and you know you're going, but you don't have your next move like solidified yet, you're still building that thing. You know, they describe entrepreneurship as throwing yourself off the cliff and like building the paraglider as you fall. How did you feel emotionally at that phase? I think you have to cope with the fact that you no longer have that bit that business card. You no longer longer have a title. Um, and you know, I thought it's going to be relatively easy to raise money for Starling Bank. You know, sort of yes and you know, sort of I raised money in a in a job before. I could knock on a few doors and they would give me the money I needed. It was incredibly difficult. I, you know, going into lots of offices basically saying, "I have this great idea, okay? Um, it's an awesome idea. I'm going to build a bank like no other bank. I'll be going to build the technology from scratch and it's going to be really fair to customers. It's going to have a whole new way of engaging with the people that it served and and I'm going to take market share of Barclays and HSBC and Lloyds. Um, so, all I need is some money." Uh, people would some people would tell me to my face that I was never going to do it. Um, you know, the people who thought they were being kind would say, "You know, you've never been an entrepreneur and you've never run a bank as a CEO before." Um, and those two things are things you can't, you know, raise money for. Um, so, it is tough. And yeah, there was a lot and lots of knocking on doors. Lots of people telling me it was impossible. And in some cases, it was really hard to carry on, you know, sort of sending the emails. But I was determined. And even a glimpse of people tell somebody telling me something positive was enough to drive me on to the next meeting. And was there a blow at that time that felt the hardest? Um, an email, a meeting, uh, Yeah, I think that there was one meeting with a with a set of investors where I just didn't have any of the answers. You know, you've been there, you're an entrepreneur. Yeah, I know. Okay. They ask you all these questions um, and I didn't have any of the answers. You know, hadn't got as far as, you know, coming up with that part of the plan. And that felt, you know, that felt awful. Um, but you you pick yourself up and you figure out how you're going to find the answers. And you find the answers by asking people for help. You ask people for help that have that are in the industry. You ask people that help for help that you've worked with in the past. There's a stereotype that people that build technology are from Silicon Valley, they're like young white men. Um, you know, that probably went to Harvard or something like that. Yeah. Um, you bucked that trend. Yeah. When you were walking into those rooms and having those conversations, were you aware that there was a certain prejudice probably acting against you? Oh, definitely. You know, um, people assume that I'm not technical. People assume that I'm not, you know, capable of coding. You know, there's code running in banks, big banks today that I wrote. Uh, people assume that you have to be from Silicon Valley, you have to be in your 20s or your 30s, um, and look and sound a certain way to build a tech company. Um, you don't look like me or sound like me. Um, but I was determined to build a tech company. And that was very very hard for people to to appreciate. What was your What was the driving force that spurred you on regardless of the resistance that you clearly encountered then? What was it that made you, you know, I'm going to keep going? I'm going to carry on knocking. I think that at that time I was talking to venture capitalists and investors about this concept of a new bank. Yeah, it is possible to build a new bank. It is possible to be a bank that actually has a lower cost base. Has a different way of relating to customers. It is possible to do this. And I kept hearing those same statements replayed in different ways to different roots. You know, occasionally I go on to a um, a VC sort of website from from Silicon Valley and somebody'd say roughly the same thing. Uh, there weren't any new banks at that stage. There wasn't anybody else doing it. But I felt that there was um whether it was an echo chamber or whether I was hearing my own ideas back to me or other people are thinking the same way. I felt I was onto something. Mhm. I felt that it was possible for people to create an um organizations that are going to change things. Mhm. And you'd never done it before. So, would you describe yourself as someone that has a high level of self-belief at that point? I've managed to pull off things throughout my career where people thought I couldn't go to the next stage. Um throughout my career people have looked at me and thought Mhm. Yeah, okay. She'll probably get one promotion. She won't get any more. Um those people were normally well, working in my department a few years later. Mhm. Um so, I've always managed to go one step beyond or a couple of steps beyond what people expected. When I started this venture, I was surrounded by people who knew how this new world worked. They knew how venture capital worked. They knew how how you behaved, how you talked, how you pitched your ideas. I had to learn that. And I was as a woman and as somebody who'd come from the corporate world, I was not used to overselling my ideas. You know, one of the things about Starling's whole journey is that we tend to over-deliver because deep down you tend to underplay your ideas or underplay your success. And therefore, you know, Starling's consistently over-delivered and surprised people over the years. Is that a fair typical stereoty- typical or typical feminine quality? This idea of like because people talk a lot about the reason why um some of the reason why um uh women in business um struggle to get promotions is they're less likely to eloquate and oversell themselves and demand promotions in the same way that men do. So, I'm wondering that like that conservatism and that um over-delivering but not over-promising is something that's quite typical of women. Yeah, I think it's a question of it's a very very difficult balance. Mhm. If you if you come over as arrogant, if you come over as demanding, you're not likable. Mhm. Um if you if you're too soft and too and underplay what you have or what you're doing, you too soft, you know, sort of you you can't get it right. Mhm. Um but I had to learn how to sell the ideas and it took years. It's interesting. I don't like to dwell too much on like gender differences, but I I I think I'm asking that question as well because I remember a VC friend of mine um and also a guy called I think it was Chamath, but a guy called Chamath who's one of the big uh investors and he says that the female-founded businesses in his portfolio always uh have when he Kevin O'Leary as well from Shark Tank, he's saying the same thing. He says that his female founders um under-promise and over-deliver consistently. Like and he said when I looked at all of my portfolio companies, I think he's got 40 or 50, the female-led businesses were outperforming significantly because they were under- under-promising and over-delivering. There's a big announcement that's just come out today, in fact. Um if you're listening to this, it would have been about 2 weeks ago. Huel have now released their new flavors and thankfully, I can now talk about them. They've released a flavor which I think might now be my best flavor. Everybody's up been asking for the the sort of the caffeine the caffeinated version of Huel. They've released an iced coffee caramel flavor, which is amazing. I've tried that. They've released a salted caramel flavor. If you know me, you know that's my favorite flavor in the world. But surprisingly, the flavor which I think might be my new favorite is the cinnamon swirl. I know it sounds strange, right? I never would have asked for that, but the truth of life is that sometimes the things you didn't know you wanted are the things you needed the most. And for me, Huel cinnamon swirl flavor, I think is my favorite flavor now. Very random, but try it. Delicious. Honestly delicious. And uh nutritionally complete. Win win win win win win. So, hiring those first few people Starling Bank, what was that process like? Um and and really sort of laying the foundations of that business. Well, it was all about sort of phoning up people I knew, explaining what I was going to do and the idea and really working with every organization I knew, trying to get favors. Uh the the traditional venture capital route wasn't open to me. Uh actually going to um VCs and saying, "Can I Can I Can I raise 50,000, 100,000, 300,000?" You know, it it wasn't open to to me because I I wasn't like the other people in those schemes. Mhm. I had to really work with big consultancy firms and tell them that I had this idea to start a new bank and they were going to miss out if they didn't back me. Unfortunately, I didn't have any money to pay them. I would pay them once I raised the money, but would they help me? Uh and some of those big firms decided to back me. And lots of people in those firms took big personal risk because most people in those big consulting firms thought that this was just totally crazy idea. She wants to take on Barclays. Ha ha ha. It'll never happen. No, no, let's try it, you know, we may learn something on the way. You know, sort of She's got all these crazy ideas. You may be able to take them and sell them to other customers. You know, let let's just just help her. And I must admit I hung out in their customer lounges for years. Really? Yeah. Just chilling. Just Yeah. Okay, interesting. So, you you you you you raised money in a slightly unconventional way considering the industry. Then you start calling people that you want to hire from the banking world that you've met or Yeah, I phoned them up. I've always been quite an unusual boss. I've always been quite um different to the people that I, you know, work with in other organizations. Uh people tend to be quite loyal to me. And I phoned them up and say, um yeah, I got a great idea. We're going to start this bank. Uh different ones are coming to work with me uh and we'll raise some money, whatever. And that's how the team got together. So, the the the who was in the core team? Yeah, okay. So, there's there was a couple of core teams, okay? There was the the first core team was the bunch that eventually went to to found Monzo. Tom's. Which you wrote about in the book and Tom's been here. Yeah. So, that that was the first cohort. Yeah. Yeah. And then Tom left Yeah. uh with the team Mhm. and I started again. I started again in exactly the same way, phoning people up and say, "Yep, I'm still trying to start this bank. You know, please please come and help me." So, Tom in particular, Tom obviously sat here, he did the podcast which I'm sure you've heard and you've written about um Tom in the book as well. How did you come to meet Tom? I met Tom at a dinner. Right. I I met Tom at a dinner in 2011 uh when he was working with GoCardless. And I I spotted him as being a very clever, funny, charismatic individual uh that was running a business. And we kept in touch. So, when you started Starling, you needed It was a CTO? He came on as a CTO? Mhm. So, uh yeah, I needed a CTO. Um I'd been a bit of a mentor to Tom. Tom had gone to the States to work for uh Grouper. You know, we kept in touch. I'd met him with coffee once or twice. And when he was back coming into the UK, I phoned him up and said or he contacted me says he's back uh and we I hired him as a CTO. So, he hires as a CTO. He then builds out the technical team. I'm guessing that's typically what CTOs do. we we you know, we started hiring developers. Yeah. Okay. And was there cuz I obviously it's well written that there there was a bit of a fallout here. Yeah. Um take me on that journey. When did when when did that How did the relationship start and when was there when was there friction? Uh it One day, Tom decides to um to go. Um unfortunately, um we were about to take funding um uh which meant that the deal was going to not going to happen. And basically, at that particular point, um the funding and the team fell apart. Um you know, looking looking back of what happened, you know, I You know, Tom had a real really really tough time at Monzo. Mhm. Um I feel for him. Um perhaps that we could have stayed together as a team and I could have done what I'm good at and perhaps Tom could have done what he was good at. Mhm. Uh but, you know, sort of you know, that's history. Both Monzo and Starling have done really really well. Mhm. And having a bit of competition does actually lead to a probably better industry. Mhm. The Klarna's founder that came on said that about Afterpay as well. I I read that there was a funding deal um early on, but you pulled out of the funding deal because one of the founders was involved in a crime. Yeah, it was yeah. So, you Starling Bank was a going to take funding. Mhm. And you pulled out of the deal because one of the founders of the firm investing was involved in a serious crime or because Starling was involved in a serious crime? I couldn't quite No, no, Starling was not you know, sort of This was This was um This was the fund we were going to take investment about from and one of the founders of that firm didn't have the reputation that we wanted. Starling is a very, very Starling believes in something. We have a mission. We believe in doing the right thing. And I think it's very, very important that we you know, especially in those early days, we maintain and are true to our vision. And that caused a disagreement between yourself and Tom. It wasn't that. It wasn't that. There was a a culture clash around a corny video I heard that was being produced. Um I'm trying to understand what like the cuz I get I get I understand a a point where founders part ways, but typically that's there's lots of small things that happen leading up into that point, little points of friction or disagreements. And what were those um points of disagreement? I think Tom and I have much more in common than people think. Um you know, sort of Tom and I often sit on panels now, right? So, so it's it's a panel of four and you know, and they go, "Great idea. We'll have Starling and Monzo on the panel and we'll have two traditional banks in the middle, you know, Barclays and Lloyds, whatever." And um and there's lots of questions. And somebody asks the question and there's going to be two answers. There's going to be one set of answers from Tom and myself. We tend to have the same view on things and then a different answer from the from the incumbent banks. And sometimes I can see, you know, I look across the panel, catch sort of Tom's eye and he and you know, I answer or he answers. There's lots more we have in common and it's a really it's a real pity it you know, it ended the way it did. You know, you know, there's lots of places in the book where I talk about um you know, sort of you know, Tom's intellect and and Tom's energy. Um it's a real pity it ended the way it did. There came a day where you you turned to the to Tom and you knew there was something wrong. And you you say to him, you know, Tom is there is there you don't seem happy about something here. And um and he he responds that he's sick of your knee-jerk behavior. Mhm. How did How did that feel? What was What What was he referring to when he says, "Sick of your knee-jerk behavior?" I think that um you know, businesses are very, very stressful. I think Tom, you know, is is an individual that sometimes has tough times. And you know, sort of every single conversation between founders uh on the wrong day about the wrong thing could possibly lead to that sort of breakup. But um wow, what a story, eh? How would you describe the differences in your personalities? Cuz it seems like that's probably at the heart of the clash. I don't think different personalities lead to clashes. Interesting. I think that people have different personalities working together can create great businesses. Mhm. Um I think Tom you know, went on, you know, to to you know, sort of lead a great group at Monzo. And you know, and I've listened to his the show um where he talked to you and he had a tough time. When you heard that, how did you feel about the way that the events were recounted? Be honest with me. I want to know the truth. Yeah, it's a very, very difficult very difficult question to answer. Um I chose Tom as a CTO. Um I still believe he is an extremely talented individual. And he has you know, grown a great business. Of course, Starling is a better business. Um uh but isn't it great that what happened you know, the story of you know, it's a yeah. You know, two individuals come across each other. Um they meet, you know, sort of one decides to start a bank, hires the other person. Um there's a falling out. Both businesses going on to really change things. And well, it's it's it's the story of digital banking in the UK. I keep wondering if you know, if that story never happened, uh would we've all got so much, you know, sort of inches in the press, to be honest. It was quite a story. But how did you feel when you heard the way that he recounted the events? You You're listening to it, it's going through your ears and you're thinking It's the first time I'd heard it, but I knew that that story was being retold in places where I couldn't hear it. Um but I'm quite philosophical about this. We all see the world and a story in different ways. And yeah. You know, it's a it's it's another piece in the story of the Starling Monzo journey. And at this time when you and Tom are having a fallout um within Starling and you're you've realized I guess that you know, you have different ideas and perspectives about how things should be done and where they should be going, you hold a crisis meeting, you come together. Um I guess you you have these meetings I guess because you're trying to discuss a way a way through, a way to a positive outcome. I think at some point you realize that there's not going to be a positive outcome and one of you's going to have to leave. And then you offer up your resignation. Yeah. So, you offered to to leave to quit Starling Bank. Mhm. Yeah, I you know, and that's you you've talked about, you know, how women act differently to men. I was prepared to give up Starling. I was prepared to give up my part in Starling for the good of Starling. And that was a very stupid thing to do. Why? Because it was my business, it was my idea. Um I'd got the business to where it was. But I was volunteering to give up my role in Starling because I wanted Starling to succeed. Tom, I think, didn't think I was capable. Somebody that like me that has spent so many years in corporate life that I wasn't capable of delivering and building a big tech company. And I built a big tech company. Um yeah. So, he didn't have that faith in me. But I realized that I could do it and made it happen. Specifically in those days, you you decide that you're going to step away for the greater good of the business. Mhm. Admirable thing to do, some would say. Um it appears that it's one of the decisions you regret in hindsight. Getting to that place, I'm just gauging by your reaction then it seems like it's something where you look back and think, "Why did I Yeah, I should never have volunteered to resign. I should never have volunteered to go. Um that was me saying um that the survival of Starling was was more important than me. And both things are important. My part in Starling and the survival of Starling. And what was it that changed your mind? Well, I think as I write in the book I'd sort of retreated. I went to a coffee shop, went to Starbucks and um met a guy that I'd seen in Starbucks every Sunday for the you know, for the previous 10 years and you know, he's a tech entrepreneur. And he came to me and he sat opposite me and he said, you know, chatted about things. And I said that I'd stepped away from Starling because that was the only way the business would succeed. And he said to me, "What you going to do next?" I said I probably going to start another bank. And he said, "Well, you don't have to start another bank. You can go back in and and take Starling back." And I realized that I'd made a mistake that I needed you know, it I desperately wanted to create Starling. I desperately wanted to lead Starling. And I had to take Starling back. And I lit literally ran out of the coffee shop and I I can I can see I can see I can see the street in front of me now. And I got in the car, drove into London um and took Starling back. And what did that mean taking it back? Uh it meant that I had to be, you know, totally Well, I had to talk to people and say that I had a vision of creating something which is an organization that does things in a right sort of way. You know, I'd been a banker for 30-odd years and I was ashamed to be a banker. And this idea of Starling was to do things my way. And I really wanted to lead the organization to where it is at the moment. So, I had to make that clear. And I took back Starling. But the consequence was that I was on my own. I was on my own in the office. You So, you walk back in the office and say to the team I say to Tom that you're withdrawing your resignation. No, um by then they'd refused to accept my resignation. Oh. Uh because um It's a long story. I don't want to go into all the details, but they refused to accept it because, you know, of certain things. Um so, I stepped in and took control of Starling. And so, um I heard around this time you'd also been burgled at home and this kind of exacerbated, I think, some of the emotional components of decision-making. Yeah. Is that accurate? Yeah. So, you know, this you know, this happened around the time with with some burglaries and, you know, and why you know, why that's in the book is that we, you know, we're CEOs, we're leaders of businesses, we're entrepreneurs, but we're also human. And a burglary is quite personal. And how did how did that impact you and your decision-making around that time? That burglary. I think it was tough around that time. But all issues and all things you do um in a business um are complex and that was an ad added complication at that time. Just adds more to the the mind and more things to think about and um makes you feel a little bit unstable, I guess, though. It's burglary in your home, I think, has that kind of psychological destabilization. Um while you were away Well, you'd handed in your notice at Starling and you'd left the office. While you were away I guess Tom's running the office. Per se. Is that accurate? And um you know, the way that it's framed in press is that there's some kind of like coup that's gone on. Where, you know, control of the company's been seized from you in like a kind of low-key hostile man manner. Is that at all accurate? I think you have to read the book. Yeah. You know, there's a um you know, I the book is the story of what happened. Um there were lots of notes and emails taken at the time. And this was all written from my notes uh and emails written at the time. And I think it's up to the readers to decide, you know, what really went on. And you um you go in and you say, you know, I'm not going to I'm not going to resign. Um I want to lead this company. I've got a vision for the company's future. And that means that you have to fire Tom. Essentially. That's the decision you make. You say, I'm the CEO still of Starling Bank, so I'm going to I'm going to let let you go and I'm going to rebuild my own team. And the way that, you know, when Tom sat here and spoke to me, he he says that you fired the whole team. Is that accurate? Okay, um the the story is that um we lost the funding. Um you can't if you can't pay people, it's very unfair to let them work. Um we were very very honest with the people that unless we could raise funding there weren't going to be any jobs. And I think it's documented extremely well in the book about all the ins and outs and it's quite a story. And so, you lose funding because Tom's quitting. And obviously, when people invest in companies, they're investing in teams and people and CTOs are a critical role. The person that's building the technology. So, that's why the funding goes through. And you realize at this point I've got to basically build this thing back from scratch. Um I'm guessing you had an inclination that there was a greater allegiance towards Tom with the with the existing cohort of people. No, not really. No. No. Okay. It was more just you you basically weren't going to be able to pay for them because the funding had been pulled. Um yeah, so that day, so you, you know, uh Tom leaves, um the the team are are are let go as well and they go with Tom. And, you know, that starts the story of Monzo and as he's described it, they start their own bank and that's what we now call it as Monzo. That day after you walk into the office, so I'm guessing I don't know whether it's a physical office or a metaphorical one, but you walk in, you're alone pretty much. Is there anyone else in the room? Is there anyone else in Starling as an employee at this point? That That's me on my own. Just you. Mhm. And how did that feel going from, you know, the climb climb, we're building something here to ground zero? I'm very good at picking myself up. You know, sort of uh at that particular point um I was feeling, well, I haven't got the responsibility now of of having to raise money to pay these people. Um I can take my time now to find a new investor. I can build a new team. And it didn't take long before I was Well, uh is it gentleman called Alan Chandler? Friend of yours? Yeah, who turned up 2 days later At your office. and stayed and stayed working for no salary at all for nearly a year. What was um what had you built at that point in terms of on the day when Tom and the the new Monzo crowd had left, what had you actually achieved as a company? What what was there technology? Was there No, nothing from the technology side had been really done. Uh we had a banking application. So, when you when you um apply for a bank, you have to have a banking application. And it was in boxes. So, you know, so we had a banking application. We didn't really have much tech. Okay. So, your friend comes in, he offers to do the P45s for the staff that have just left and just to sort of give you a hand. Um and then you start hiring again. A lot of people would quit at that point. And a lot of people would give up. That's a pretty significant blow as far as I'm concerned. How many people had left in total? 16. 16 people. That's a pretty significant blow to, you know, might be time to go back to the corporate world now. Did that not cross your mind? Uh not really. Um I I got to a state of having almost having a banking license. Um I had the idea. I'd learned a lot. I knew what we needed to do. It didn't take me long and I was starting again. You say that like it's so easy, like it's just so effortless and I know it's not. It was humiliating, okay? It was humiliating reading in the press what had happened. Because the story's been told in the press and the story's been told now are not actually what happened. Um but, you know, that's history. You got to get on and you got to sort things out and you got to move on. And I was yeah, I was up for it. I was going to do it again. You seem reluctant to uh correct false stories here. That's clearly a decision you've made. Yeah, I think that what I don't want to get into is he said that, you know, she said this. You know, I I've written a book which is um you know, which is a very accurate account of what happened. And my side of the story. And people are allowed to have different sides of the same story. That's okay. Um but I wanted to tell my story. Mhm. Your friend that stopped by the office Yeah. um gave you a hand. How emotionally important was that? And how grateful are you to them? I will be forever ever grateful to Alan. Uh I think that the one person to come in and and be somebody who said, yep, this happened, but, you know, yep, you're going to start again. That's fine. And I think one of these symbolic things that happened was that in the early weeks, you know, when when they left, you know, Tom and the team had left all their debris behind, you know, sort of and they had a hell of a lot of debris. Um uh I went out one day to do some fundraising. And when I came back, Alan had collected all the all the mugs and the odd socks and, you know, the and, you know, all the various medications they were all taking. And and he cleared it all up and thrown it all away. And the office was clear of the old world. And we could start again. And that was quite symbolic. And yeah. It was I sometimes think if Alan had not come in you know, would it have been so easy? And I'll never know, but that was the start of a new team. And, you know, that team, you know, the the A team. And the team that left with the B team. Um There she is. Okay. What's you know, we we attracted people that were sought out Starling. You know, this is one is going to build a bank and she's going to do all these things and they turned up and and they were awesome. Okay, so the team have left. Anne's cleaned out the office. Is there is there not a moment in you where you you consider packing it in? Is there not a moment where you think, "Do you know what? This is April the 1st. April the 1st. That's when you know, that's when I accidentally had an email from the team that left. Um and that That was difficult. You accidentally had an email. Yeah. You weren't meant to be copied on it? Uh I don't know. I never know whether I was I was meant to be copied on it or not. Uh but they were making fun of me. And I thought, "Well, is that the day I'm going to give up?" But I said, "No. You know, and I went back in the office the following day and carried on. Making fun of you in terms of your management skills, your something you'd done or said or very personal things? No, it's a question of you know, you have to read the book about it, but there was a prank about them being arrested. Um but you have to read the story to understand the the the the nuance. But that was the only day that I thought you know, can I carry on? And that lasted an hour. But I was absolutely determined. Were you upset reading that email? I was panicking about them. I was worried about them. Why? Um I was worried about the fact that they could be in real trouble. And yeah, I I hired these people. They were friends for years. Uh they and I like them. You can't suddenly um you can't suddenly cut off all connection with people that you worked with even though this thing had happened to me. Did it put a fire in your belly that wasn't there before? Because you know, events like that can they can kind of send you one or two ways. Oh, and they can kind of send you I guess they can also send you both ways at the same time, but they typically if we're just kind of broad strokes, they can they can devastate you to the point where you you know, don't get out of bed. Or they can motivate you to the point that you work two times as hard. Nothing was going to stop Starling's succeeding after that happened. So it's the it's the work twice as hard. Yeah. And did you did you really did you were there moments like where you you you know, you put you just put that extra effort in and you you know, you became a little bit more determined because of that? Like moments you can think of? Cuz I know that I'm a human being and I don't care. If I was in that situation, I swear to God I'd have a picture of their face on the wall. My team would be hearing about it every 5 seconds. That's the guy I am. Like it or not, I don't care. I do that about all the the competition we have. I it motivates me and it is what it is. You don't have to like me. So I'm I'm asking the question like did it did they become a a real significant competitive driving force in your life? Okay, as a woman you can't be bitter. Okay? You can't show that bitterness. Um Why? You can't. You You have to be you know, you you have to internally put your energies into um into Starling. Um you know, Starling Starling has succeeded. Starling is a successful business um that I'm terribly proud of. And yes. When I I take a lot of inspiration from other people's books and whatever. Most most businesses have had a uh near-death moment. It It It It It happens so often that the best businesses, the best entrepreneurs have had times when they lost it. They almost lost it, but they recovered. And this was mine. And uh it played out very publicly. And um I learned a lot from it. And I decided to continue. And I think Starling and me are better for all of it. When you started to rehire the new team, Yeah. I'm guessing you made different hiring decisions in terms of because of what had happened, did it influence the type of people that you brought into the business for the chapter two? Not necessarily. Mhm. I think that yeah, I I didn't set out to get um a different set of personalities. I could focus on getting more qualified people and higher caliber people because I had a better business proposition. Mhm. It was a year in, 18 months in. You know, it wasn't a blank sheet of paper. It was a fully formed proposition that had almost raised money Mhm. where we had an application for the banking license that was almost fully formed. So it was less risk for those people coming in. Uh and I also had spent 18 months figuring this thing out. I was better at selling the idea. Mhm. So the second time around I could bring in a you know, I don't want this to be derogatory on you know, Tom or whatever. I hired a a a higher caliber more appropriate set of people for the problem we had to solve. Okay. Yeah. I think that's I think that's a natural thing. I think I think even in you know, Monzo's business, I'm pretty sure when I had the conversation with Tom he he speaks about hiring a you know, hiring a different caliber of person to meet an evolving business challenge. Especially as I know I know particularly in Monzo's case they did start bringing in people from like the banking world and stuff like that. And even in my business I talk a lot about how I we did the exact same thing. I at the very start didn't quite know the caliber of talent that I needed or the you know, their experience. And in year three of my business I realized that the first two one or two years of hires that I'd made weren't adequately uh experienced in solving the problem I had to solve. And also the type and scale of problem you have to solve evolves, right? When you're one or two years old, it's a different set of problems to when you're like a thousand employees, right? So that makes perfect sense. Pivotal moments then. So chapter two of Starling um funding. Yeah. What was the pivotal moment with getting getting the money in the door? It was very very difficult. Again? Uh yeah, it was very um but two years in uh I was approached by um a family office. And I wouldn't return their calls, okay? You know, I was absolutely determined that I was going to have a VC. These people I knew was going to be in these well-known firms um or you know, my investment bankers were going to find me this sort of investor. Uh but I was approached by uh a uh family office um that had seen uh an article about Tom in Bloomberg and had investigated what's going on in the new bank scene in the UK and wanted to talk to me. And I started conversations with them. And it took a while for me to actually engage with them. I'd never heard of them. And I wasn't going to talk to people I didn't know. Anyway, I ended up going on a getting on a plane to the Bahamas. Uh that's when you know they're rich. It was a yacht, wasn't it? It was a yacht. And uh spent three days being interrogated by a gentleman called Harold McPike. I was an algorithmic trader. Um and uh he he asked me the most complex questions that anybody'd ever asked. He was really into the detail. And yes. Uh it happened at 4:00 um I joined him on his yacht. And I think was this yacht? It's a big yacht. More of a ship. It was a big yacht. Okay. Uh and uh yeah, he asked me lots and lots of questions about me, about the business. And it was very very detailed. And at the 11:15 in the evening he offered me 48 million pounds for 66% of the company. 66%? Mhm. I read that he said he he said something to you like I'm not going to give you the 3 million. Yeah. I was trying to raise 3 million, okay? I was trying to raise 3 million. That's all I needed was 3 million to get to getting the the banking license. So the idea was to raise 3 million and then 15 million and 30 million. I only wanted the 3 million. I hadn't raised a penny. The only money that had gone into the business was my money. Mhm. So it was impossible to raise money. Uh and he said, "Yeah." So he said, "No, I'm not going to give you 3 million. I'm going to give you 48. Christ, that's like Chris Tarrant from Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. That's mad. 40 And how did you feel? So, there's two real things here. That's a huge amount of money, but that's also 66% of your business. Mhm. Tough. And at that particular point, you know, that all the other things that you're working on, all the other leads are going to going to go. Yeah. You may have 40, 50 different leads you're working on. You're going to accept this offer and sort of somebody else now controls the company. But with 48 million, you have a situation where you can build the test best tech in the world. So, you know, I've been doing this for 2 years and it was really difficult. And I had somebody who really understood what I was going to do. Was super intelligent. That actually believed in my conviction I could do this. But I was have to give up 66%. But it would mean that I could build something that nobody else had ever built. I mean, in that moment, he's valuing what is, and correct me if I'm wrong here, essentially an idea. Yeah. It was a 16-page deck. He's valuing a 16-page deck at 72 million. How long did you have to think about that decision? Probably about 30 seconds. Really? And how do you feel about it? Cuz a lot of people they look back on those fundraising decisions. It seems that every startup entrepreneur regrets how they valued their business at the start because they always, especially when it becomes a multi-billion dollar company, they feel like they sold themselves short. How do you feel about it? He's not listening. He's too busy in the Bahamas on his massive yacht. I think that it is more and more important to actually create this vision. I was so excited that I could now start. And we eventually signed the deal on the 23rd of December and submitted the banking license on the 22nd of December. It was finally, you know, we could we could start. It was hugely exciting. Did you celebrate? Well, I couldn't actually celebrate cuz we didn't actually have a term sheet for another 3 days. So, you know, it was on the Saturday night. I was flying back. And I had the term sheet an hour before picking up the flight. But once you'd signed the term sheet, and it was all signed off, did you celebrate? No, you never you never celebrate term sheets. Mhm. Uh, you celebrate getting the money in the bank. When the money came in the bank, did you celebrate? Yeah. Yeah. And what did that How did that look? Uh, how did it look? You look at You open up your app with Barclays, whatever. Oh, 48 million. Yeah. It's It was very exciting. Bahamas. It was very exciting. It's very exciting. And it it allows you to do so much. Was it terrifying as well? Was it scary? It's a lot of responsibility. It's 48 million pounds of someone else's money. Yeah. And that's why entrepreneurs that take external funding are so committed to do a good job. There's a huge amount of responsibility to deliver. Mhm. You can't just, um, you can't walk away from it. Mhm. Once you got that investment, you have to deliver. It's so important. And how much money have you raised in total now? Ooh. 600, 700. 600, 700 million pounds. Wow. I could have done so much with that. So, what have you learned about raising investment? Well, that if you were to, you know, there'll be a lot of entrepreneurs listening to this, um, who have a lot of like unhelpful stereotypes or thoughts about raising investment. God, some of them will think the only way to do it is like Dragon's Den. Right? Um, what would what would you tell them now having gone through this process so many times? Take the money. Okay, so there's a huge amount of huge amount written about, you know, you need to go for these sort of investors or those sort of investors and you need to pick your investor, whatever. The vast majority of people can't pick where the investment's coming from. You know, only 1% of venture capital funding goes to women founders. Right? So, you know, if somebody offers you the money, you've got to take it cuz it comes around so, so rarely. And a lot of people worry about valuation. Not relevant. You know, most businesses fail. Most entrepreneurs don't get their businesses off the ground not because they don't have good ideas, not because they're not good people, but they couldn't get the funding. And do you think it's hard to raise money? Yeah, very hard. Venture capital is tend to invest in um, businesses that look very, very similar. You know, if you look at if you if you read Paul Graham's works, Oh, yeah. Yeah. Graham's works. You know, he talks about really it it that teams need to look like this and and things are done in this sort of way. You know, I would have never got any Y Combinator VC Paul Graham funding because I'm not that sort of entrepreneur. And a lot of investing by VCs, they're looking for carbon copies of businesses they've invested in in the past. And the really great ideas don't get that investment. And really great ideas from women founders don't get great don't get significant investment. Mhm. Interesting. But there's a lot of money out there, isn't there? Yeah. That's what I've come to learn is there is a lot of money out there. There's a lot of money out there when you're successful. Right. Starling now is it is a big business. 1,600 people, 2 and 1/2 million accounts, um, doing interesting things. Uh, we have a reputation. Um, but the fact that, you know, and occasionally, you know, they publish how much money in the UK has gone to women founders. And it's a lot of it's gone to me. So, so I I think we have to be very realistic that you get to a point where you're a success and people then want to invest. But the majority of the time at Starling, it's been really tough. It's been really tough. So, what when you reflect on your corporate career and you contrast it and compare it to your entrepreneurial career, what was the really surprising, tough part on a personal level? And this is really why I started this podcast, you know. The All jobs are tough. A corporate job is very tough. I think that being an entrepreneur, it's far more personal responsibility. As an entrepreneur, there's nobody that all the hiring decisions, um, somehow ended up with you making that first hiring decision. You know, we have 1,600 people, but those, you know, somewhere up in the chain, I hired one of those people. Right? That made that hiring choice. Um, anything that goes wrong is is my responsibility. Um, and all mistakes are probably down to me, okay? So, there's a lot of personal responsibility. And that responsibility gets more and more as more and more people depend on it. But isn't it fantastic? Isn't it a wonderful buzz, isn't it? Isn't it wonderful to to have a platform, really? I I fundamentally believe that financial institutions lost their way. And Starling is doing the right thing. And somehow people have said to me that I've created the organization that I wanted to run. Because I quite like running organizations. And I wanted to do things in a different sort of way. So, finally, I'm running the organization that I've been wanting to run for the last 35 years. And that you wished exist as as existed as a customer. Yeah. I think that, you know, I've been very lucky. I I've always had a great relationship with money. I But the vast majority of people in this world have a bad relationship with money. It doesn't go well for them. And you know, they deserve a better bank. I went into banking, you know, because I wanted to do interesting things. I wanted to come to London and I wanted to be in tech. But I also wanted to do something that was respectable, worthwhile, doing the right thing by people. And banks stopped doing that. And I'm much more comfortable being accountable for the organization that is Starling. And it helped you to I guess alleviate that taxi cab shame you referenced where a taxi driver asks you what you do and you don't want to say bank out because there's so much stigma and shame around the sector. You're proud to talk about Yeah, I'm proud to talk about what I do. I'm proud to talk about Yeah, I'm proud to talk about what I do and what I stand for. And having a bit of a platform to nudge things in the right way, you know, I I'm only a small cog in this whole world, but if I can do my bit to make things fairer in a couple of segments, you know, I should do that and I'm enjoying doing it. You talked about the buck stopping with you. All problems are your problems or hiring decisions are ultimately linked back to you by X degrees of separation. When you're at especially, you know, the other part is the industry you're in is not an easy an easy industry. Customers, you have millions of like customers that are you're dealing with their money, which is the one of the most emotional sensitive things you can deal with with any customer. Um the the emotional toll must be extreme. I mean, Tom sat here and it was the first window I'd had into how brutal uh emotionally brutal fintech and managing a bank can be. Yeah. Managing a bank, you know, so yeah, I listened to what Tom said. And all the things that Tom said happen in all banks. Right, that is what happens. But it's my job. It's what I do. Um it's what the people I work with do. And sometimes it's You know, sometimes you read emails of people that have been scammed out of their life savings. You have emails and you have cases where, you know, gamblers have lost all their money. You have to deal with people who have lost their son in some tragic circumstances. We have a window on people's lives in all sorts of circumstances. And we have to be responsible. We have to be empathetic. And we have to guard ourselves from the bad guys out there. What we do means that we touch people in all sorts of ways when they're most vulnerable. Whether they've lost somebody, whether they have you know, they gambled all their money away or whether they've been scammed. That's a responsibility. But it's not just me that has to take that responsibility. We have we have hundreds of people that talk to customers every day. That see customers when things are going well and things are going badly. Um it takes huge amount of energy and sometimes I'm listening to calls and it really impresses me how young people, you know, who are new to their careers, who are so empathetic, so in touch with real people and really helping them. You know, I take my hat off to them. What do you do to protect yourself mentally from the chaos of running such a big business that has such a you know, is dealing with such a sensitive topic for people. What do you How do you protect yourself from not losing your sanity? Yeah. I had a great mentor in this, my father. My father um was brought up in a home where um his father was in the First World War. And he came back from the First World War with um what you now call post-traumatic stress syndrome. And they didn't call it that then. They called it, you know, shell shock. And he he was brought up in that home where his father was had good days and bad days and things were quite fragile. But he had My father had a great way of talking about uh feelings and emotions and what you do to talk yourself up. And and how you make yourself happy. And we had a home where we talked about this and how you counted your blessings. We We weren't religious at all, but how you how you how you took energy from what's going right rather than what's going wrong. And he was a great mentor. He taught me this. And I think the dedication in my book is all about you know, thanking my parents for teaching me that happiness is something that you can cultivate and treasure because not everybody has it. And I think when I I'm in a sort of situation where things are tough, you can do things to change the chatter in your head to realize that you're not the center of attention. You know, sometimes No, it's not about me. You know, not not everybody's looking at me. Everybody's looking at their own life and thinking about their own problems. And I am very very fortunate. I have a huge number of things that are going right for me. And I have the privilege of running Starling. And it is a privilege and there's lots of things going wrong and lots of pressures on me. But it's a great privilege to have. So, do you see that as a your your sort of coping mechanism there is a almost like a almost like a childhood disposition that was taught to you? Like it's a a perspective that kind of defaults to optimism, seeing the glass is half full, defaulting to gratitude. That's kind of acted as a protective Yeah, I think it is. I'm still quite excited by it all. Like sort of coming here today, I was excited. Right, this is this is something which is Look, I am ever so fortunate to be a person who's doing what I'm doing, to talking to you that's going to be broadcast. This is exciting. Uh when I come back into London, you know, I'm driving back into London late at night and you know, and I'm going through the city, I'm I'm still excited. I'm like a kid that's coming to London for the first time. This is an exciting things to do. I'm Yeah, I'm loving it all. Such a strange question to ask, but um that is somewhat unusual. It feels. It feels like well, is it Maybe it's just because the conversation I had previously was so, you know, like the red phone by the bed Tom described, Yeah, I have a phone by the bed and it never leaves the the Yeah, the phone is by the bed all the time. And that's the like the emergency call me if there's a crisis phone. Yeah. But that's the job I get paid for. But there's a huge there's a there's a huge amount of things that come with this job. You know, I you know, I appear in front of the Treasury Select Committee and get grilled. I you know, I have this sort of grilling from you. I I I I can talk to interesting people. I have the opportunity of building something I've always wanted. That's a huge huge privilege. I really think that's a really underestimated defense mechanism against life is if your default position is to view the you know, to count your blessings as you say and view the half as glass full, then it's it's harder to slip into the trap of um my expectations are being unmet because of the difficulties of my life. And a lot of what we've discovered from this talking to guests on this podcast uh when your expectations of how the world is meant to be going go unmet, then you slip away into unhappiness and misery. And yeah, you seem to have a a default to gratitude essentially, which is causing a very mentally sort of protective. Have you ever been to therapy? Have you ever had like any professional support in that regard? No. No. I read a lot. I read um I read I read hundreds of books. I read you know, I read every self-help book I get my hands on. I read every single banking strategy book. I've always done it. I I love understanding things. The the personal So, this is interesting. One of the things that um you said, well, kind of two points is that you don't have work-life balance. All right. It's all it's just all work. Yeah. When people hear that, they go they sympathy like, you know, they think they think you're like I feel a similar way to to some degree. Maybe it's changed recently, but I that was my life and I don't want sympathy for it because I actually love what I'm doing every day. But then, you know, I read into your story and there's sort of connected points there where you say um about how women are sort of conditioned in our society to think happiness equals having 17 kids and a husband and how you would like to do, you know, buck that narrative. Yeah. Can you talk to me about that? So, like the personal I I don't want to call it sacrifice cuz that's the loss of something, but the personal balance you have in your life. And also, you know, you talk openly about not having kids. Yeah. Um Look, you know, sort of um you know, the right man never came along. Mhm. Uh it wasn't something that I decided against. Uh but there was never any assumption in the family home that I would get married or whatever. But the right man never come along. And as far as children, I never made the decision not to have children. Uh just that um sort of I was busy and then it was too late. Mhm. But I think that people compare um to quite an idyllic state of, you know, marriage and two children and them all living in a wonderful home and, you know, sort of everything being um fantasized life of a family. Um majority of families are not like that. Um I have I am really, really happy that I've made the right decisions. And yes, I'd say I get asked about it occasionally and brave people ask me about it. You know, people who are not brave trying to go around it. Mhm. Um yeah, you know, but one day perhaps I will marry, you never know. You know, the right man may come along. Um it's unlikely to happen with children. I always struggled in when I was running my business to have any kind of relationship with anybody. I was a total failure cuz I was obsessed, as you say, like work-life balance, it was just all work. I was in the office Saturday and Sunday. And I found it incredibly hard to find someone that understood the peculiarity of my life dynamic. It was only upon leaving that business that I actually managed to like, you know, like higgle something together, like higgledy, you know, like put some pieces together, which is probably resembles a relationship now, but um It's very difficult finding a man who's prepared to listen to me going on about my career for 3 hours. Mhm. We've had It's not No, we've had a lot of guests come here that are, you know, female founders that have said a very similar thing. Yeah. And also an interesting narrative which I I want to talk about, which is like men can be emasculated. Is this true? I Chrissy came here and she's a she's a successful founder and she said that yeah, like men can be emasculated by the success of a a woman if she's like bringing home the bacon or if she's, you know, the career-driven one. Do you find this to be true? Well, I you know, I've had a lot of coaching from friends before going out on a date and going, "For goodness sake, Anne, don't ask for the bill, okay? For goodness sake, Anne, don't, you know, don't leave the table to answer a call." Right, so Goodness sake. Yeah, but I've got a really, really good deal coming up. No, no, no, no, this is how it works, Anne, okay? You go on a date and you pretend he's he's he's awesome and you don't go off and answer your phone and you don't try and pay the bill, okay? That's how it works. That's how it works for most people. But, you know, sometimes work is more important. Wow. Oh god. And you I you I read something as well that you said that you could write a separate book about your dating. Yeah, yeah. Dating uh experiences. Yeah, I've done a lot of that, yeah. Done a lot of dating. Um Doesn't work. Doesn't work. Doesn't work. And you you you pinpoint the way that you are in terms of your like your focuses, your ambitions, your cuz, you know, all of that stuff as making it difficult. That's the thing that makes it difficult. Look, if I put a lot of effort into it, I would have probably made something work. Mhm. Um the trouble is I put a lot of effort into my job, my career. Mhm. And I probably get a huge amount of satisfaction about with that. And it's sort of taken priority. Mhm. But that's great, you know? You know, I've I've got a great job. Um you know, I'm doing this sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you know, what could be better? You know, this sort of being in the situation where you can talk about things and you and you have success. Yeah, it's it's good. As you reflect back on, you know, the the the Anne that started her career as an entrepreneur and the naivety that she had must have undoubtedly had going, you know, what would you what was some of the key sort of pieces of advice you would impart on her and say, "I just wish you knew this and be careful of this and" I I I think it's the the question that people always give you the wrong sort of advice. What I what I caution about is that there's a lot of people out there giving bad advice. Uh because when you ask somebody about what you should do or how you're raising fund raising or, you know, whatever you do about your business, they haven't got a good idea, so they give you something because they feel as they can't say, "I don't know." So be cautious of those mentors that actually don't know anything. Mhm. And there's so many people have, you know, the the the VC world is full of people who are, you know, you know, finished their careers that are wandering around VC land trying to tell you what things work and how things work. They've never run a business. A lot of that is absolute rubbish and you have to just stop it. Um one of the biggest lessons I learned is a lot of the things that I knew when I was absolutely 100% certain of was actually wrong. Right, so forget about it. The world's move on, be relevant. And do you want to sell Starling Bank? What's the plan? You know, you want to list it on the stock exchange? Do you want to a big incumbent bank to come along and buy the company so you can sail off to the Bahamas with that guy on on the boat or No, I think that we'll probably list in a couple of years' time. Um you know, I wanted to be I want to be important. I want Starling to be something that changes financial services forever. I'm enjoying myself, you know, I'm I'm not ready to quit. This is I'm on a roll. And you must have had some offers, right? Cuz, you know, a couple of people coming along saying, "Brown envelope, 100 mil. See you later." You know? It's Look, it's a unique opportunity. You know, imagine, put yourself in my shoes. 1981, I came to London to start my career in banking. And rocked up at Lloyds Bank as a graduate trainee. Nowadays, you know, I'm I'm running an important bank in the UK. And I founded this bank. And it's much better than the incumbent banks and it's at start of its sort of 300 years rather than at the end of it. Yeah, it's incredibly exciting. Um yeah, I have to pinch myself. It's really happening. Mhm. Yeah, you know, it's it's it's truly remarkable and that you're right, I did give you a grilling there a bit on and a lot of the the key points cuz there is, you know, there is such a interesting banking narrative banking war narrative going on in the fintech space at the moment and but, you know, the overarching thing is just, you know, I find your story to be just so incredible and I find it to be like genuinely unbelievable because you say it in such an effortless way, you say you talk about these events and you even the fundraising stuff and, you know, the stereotypes of being a female founder that doesn't fit the existing stereotypes of tech bros out in Silicon Valley that are all like 21 from Harvard and they're all dropouts and to persevere against it all, I suspect is significantly, maybe 10x harder than you actually make out. Because like I know how hard it is anyway, but then when the deck is stacked against you in the ways that I I know it it is because I I understand stereotypes and the the climate and especially in the banking world. Like what kind of lunatic starts a bank, right? And I I I was I was fortunate enough to be slightly privy to some of the early processes of like getting a bank banking application because we had a lot of fintech startups, including banks like Monzo, approach us very early and ask us to help with the marketing. So and and there and when I was sitting in the rooms maybe 5, 6 years ago, they were all talking about eventually getting their banking licenses or something. And uh that corner was turned eventually, but it's just remarkable and it's unbelievable and there's very few entrepreneurs in the UK or really anywhere in the world that I've encountered that really managed to take on a really stubborn incumbent in the in as it relates to the banking industry here. Spotify is one of the examples I sometimes think of. Cuz there was no way you could make, you know, move move away the rights and the music rights and move it to digital and then charge people. Like so it's that again I I consider Daniel Ek to be a lunatic, but Yeah, incredible. Yeah, it's I consider this to be the same. So yeah, thank you for the inspiration. Thank you for the courage and I think your story is one of, you know, it's one in, you know, a hundred million. I do have one request though. And this is where the diary comes in. Okay. Okay, so Um so what we do with all of our guests when they come on the show is they all write a question in the diary for the next guest. Right. So our last guest wrote wrote a question for you. Do you really understand the purpose of your life here on Earth? No, I don't. I think that I've Nobody ever sort of discovers their purpose until probably too late. Um and I think thinking about that question too hard is probably too difficult. I think the purpose of your life will only be discovered once it's too late. You don't think it's what you're doing now? Would you suspect suspect that you're on the start of a journey rather than the end? I think I want to do more than just make Starling the best bank in the world. I think Starling will do its bit to help people with their financial health. But I think it's also important to nudge society in the right direction. And I can do that with the platform of Starling. Nudging society in the right direction in terms of Yeah, fairness. Fairness, equality. Yes. I think the world is very unfair in lots of different ways. And it's not just fair between countries. There's very, very, you know, different people have different experiences with life. You know, I have been extremely fortunate. But the girl growing up next door had probably had a very, very different life to me. And by an accident of birth we experience a very, very different life. I'm getting Prime Minister vibes. I have no, no intention of becoming a politician. It's far too hard. Okay. But you can, as you say, you refer to Starling as a platform and as, you know, being able to influence the electorate Yeah. is equally important um as as being the the puppet in charge, so. I'm going to ask you to write a question in the book. Thank you so much for coming today. It's been a wonderful conversation. much for inviting me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.