Stanford Psychologist Reveals One Change That Will Dramatically Improve Your Life | Kelly McGonigal

So, why is movement specifically so important to mental well-being? I almost don't even know where to begin with this. I mean, you can start [music] with the data. If you just look at the data around the world, every country you can imagine that it has been studied [music] in, every age group, every health status, every gender, every socioeconomic status, [music] people who are more physically active are happier, they have better relationships, they have more meaning in life, they're less at risk for things like [music] depression and loneliness. If you go further than just sort of that kind of epidemiology, and [music] you look at how movement affects the brain, and how movement affects mental health, [music] it's as if humans were born to move, and when we are physically active, [music] it puts us in a state of not just body, but of mind to be the best version of ourselves. [music] You know, everything from the neurochemistry of the runner's high, which makes us um enjoy cooperating with other people more, [music] and gives us hope and optimism, all the way to how if you are regularly active, you have a [music] different brain and nervous system than people who don't exercise. You have a a brain and a nervous system that are more sensitive to pleasure, and more resilient to stress. I could literally just talk for the next hour listing the many ways, but I think that the biggest takeaway is that [music] that human beings as individuals and as a species, we [music] thrive when we are active. That that our brains aren't just housed in bodies like it's a suitcase [music] that's carrying our brains around. Our brains really work best when we are in bodies that are active. [music] Everybody, welcome to Impact Theory. Today's guest is a research psychologist, a lecturer at Stanford, and an award-winning science writer. She's also a best-selling author of a number of books, including The Willpower Instinct and The Upside of Stress. And her TED Talk titled How to Make Stress Your Friend is one of the 20 most viewed TED Talks of all time. Her powerful insights into the field of science help, which focuses on translating insights from psychology and neuroscience into practical strategies that support health and well-being, has made her a much sought-after speaker and consultant. She's worked with countless organizations, including The New York Times Education Initiative, and she's appeared on such prestigious television shows as The Today Show, Good Morning America, The Anderson Cooper Show, and CNN's Vital Signs. So, please help me in welcoming the woman whose incredible work has been published in 28 languages around the world, Jazzercise aficionado, and author of The Joy of Movement, Kelly McGonigal, Ph.D. That's my idea. How are you doing? Thank you. Absolutely. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So, I didn't know anything about the the movement side of your life. I had been introduced, obviously, to you through the TED Talk and all the cool stuff that you've done around stress, which was really interesting. I'm a total psychopath for willpower, so I was like, all right, what's the next book going to be? Uh and it was a curveball for me. But then, like, the way you tie it together with all the connection and stuff, what made you want to write about the power of movement? I This is the book I was born to write. It's funny cuz most people who know me as a public figure don't know that this is actually the most important part of my life. Um I discovered exercise as a way to take care of my mental health when I was very young, like, 7 or 8, and I've been teaching group exercise classes for 20 years, and I'm convinced it is the most important thing I do to take care of myself, and I also think it's the most important contribution that I make to my community, the classes that I lead. So, I you know, every book that I've written so far, it's because somebody else asked me to, you know, like, "Oh, you teach this class on the science of willpower, it should be a book." Or, "You gave this TED Talk, it should be a book." And this was the book where I said, "This is the book that I want to write because I believe the single most important thing that other people can do as well to to take care of their minds and also build community. So, why is movement specifically so important to mental well-being? I almost don't even know where to begin with this. I mean, you can start with the data. If you just look at the data around the world, every country you can imagine that it has been studied in, every age group, every health status, every gender, every socioeconomic status, people who are more physically active are happier, they have better relationships, they have more meaning in life, they're less at risk for things like depression and loneliness. If you go further than just sort of that kind of epidemiology, and you look at how movement affects the brain, and how movement affects mental health, it is if humans were born to move, and when we are physically active, it puts us in a state of not just body, but of mind to be the best version of ourselves. You know, everything from the neurochemistry of the runner's high, which makes us um enjoy cooperating with other people more, and gives us hope and optimism, all the way to how if you are regularly active, you have a different brain and nervous system than people who don't exercise. You have a a brain and a nervous system that are more sensitive to pleasure and more resilient to stress. I could literally just talk for the next hour listing the many ways, but I think the the biggest takeaway is that that human beings, as individuals and as a species, we thrive when we are active. That that our brains aren't just housed in bodies like it's a suitcase that's carrying our brains around. Our brains really work best when we are in bodies that are active. You actually talk about in the book how it's quite possible that the very reason we developed large brains was to move. Give us some of the science behind that. One thing that I found in my own life is once I could understand the biological mechanisms, once I knew why things were the way that they were, it became easier not to be a slave to it. That then I sort of understood my sense of agency within the meat suit, as it were. Um so, where does the hypothesis that our brains were created to move us come from? Yeah, this is I mean, this is an idea that I I feel like you can't even explain it. This is an idea that if you look at the the structure and the function of the brain, everything that humans do, other than think, is a form of movement. You know, communicating, language, emotion expressions, um labor, finding food, celebration, procreation, it's all a physical action. And and the idea is basically other than think and ruminate and plan, that's, you know, that there is no other reason to have a brain except to interact with the world. And even like thinking is subservient to our ability to engage with the world. And so, basically, we have a brain that scaffolds every type of interaction we have with the world, which is movement. And uh I think it's it's not even like a fancy idea. It's it that just is true. So, talk to me I don't experience the runner's high. Okay. So, I work out every day because I recognize its importance, but I think I recognize it largely intellectually. Yeah. Um especially because I've been doing it now for so many years, so I don't take a lot of time off from it, so I don't have sort of really a lot to compare to. My wife, though, gets a pretty powerful runner's high. If she's stressed out, she needs to work out. Whereas if I'm stressed out, I'd actually rather take time off, and I find that gives me time to sort of settle my mind, settle my nervous system. So, what is it that's going on physiologically that makes like the the connections between anxiety, depression, working out, cognitive optimization, the book that John Ratey wrote Spark, going into like if you have like your hardest class, you should do physical education right before it get your heart rate up. What is going on physiologically that makes that true? Oh my gosh, okay, so there's so much. But first I want to ask you you said you don't get a runner's high. What do you actually do? What what's your favorite form of exercise? Well, I have run, so I did cross country for 4 years. So, when I say like I gave it a shot, like I have done a lot of running. I'm not I'm not here to make anyone run. I don't get a runner's high either unless there's a killer soundtrack, but even then like why not just dance? That is super interesting and I'm very surprised. We will definitely want to get an answer to that. So, the exercise that I do is largely just weight-based. So, I do some body weight stuff, but primarily I'm trying to lift heavy-ish weights. I'm not like the strongest cat ever, but that's that's my zone. So, it's interesting. So, if you want to look for a classic runner's high, um the type of movement that is most likely to trigger it is when you are persisting at something that is like a cardiorespiratory activity like walking fast, hiking, running, swimming, cycling, dancing. And um my guess is that So, we know that there are individual differences in whether people experience that as euphoria versus that might be like, you know, the classic runner's high versus um more just a sense of empowerment, something that feels more like a relief. So, a lot of it's an individual difference and a lot of times I think we're promised the euphoria that's like an amazing drug rush. A lot of people don't get that version of the runner's high. But most people like I I don't actually know that there's any evidence that people don't get any version of the runner's high. Um we know that that human beings and also other social species like dogs when they engage in cardiovascular activity for about 20 minutes or so moderate intensity. One of the changes that you see in the brain is an increase in endocannabinoids, which is the neurotransmitter that cannabis mimics. Um and if you work really hard, you can get also an endorphin rush. Or if you have a killer playlist, you can get an endorphin rush. Or if you're moving with people that you love, you can get an extra endorphin rush. But that the core high actually isn't endorphins, it's endocannabinoids. So some people experience that as a kind of euphoria, but a lot of people experience it as just feeling better. Like the worries are a little bit less. Everything feels possible. Things feel like there's reason to hope. Endocannabinoids also increase the pleasure we get from social contact. So sometimes you don't even notice what the runner's high is or the exercise high is until afterwards and then you reunite with your partner or you meet up with your team um and suddenly it just it's an easier interaction. Somehow their stories are funnier and it feels better to hug someone. So the runner's high, it's not always that rush that people think it is where like in the moment peak intensity, you're like loving life cuz you're working hard. The actual runner's high is more of this this neurochemical change that seems to make us more optimistic and also more open to connecting with others. Um and my guess is you might get a version of that. But also the movement, the exercise that you're doing is probably going to affect your brain and your mental health in slightly different ways. So we know for example when you are lifting um heavy weights or you're doing things that really engage the core, the muscles of your core actually talk to your brain in a way that tends to rather produce this kind of happiness or euphoria that actually calms down anxiety. It's a really interesting neuro feedback loop that when you brace your core and when you're engaging in that kind of strong muscular contraction that's stabilizing, your brain reads those signals from your body as essentially I got this. I'm in control. So that's not really like a runner's high, but it can be a really empowering state of mind. And so, your your literal moment-to-moment sense of self is always being informed by what your body is doing. And we know that when people are active, often they experience themselves as a different version of themselves. So, with something like weightlifting, you are literally getting feedback, sensory feedback from your body that says, "I am strong. I move heavy things. I do hard things. I'm powerful." And your brain does not receive that information from like So, you're lifting something heavy. So, your your brain is going to get feedback from muscle contraction and tension of the tendons on your joints. Your brain does not get that information and think, "My bicep is strong." Or, you know, "My my lats are strong." The brain thinks, "I am strong. I have strength. I am exerting myself in this way." And every movement form has its own like signature proprioceptive feedback. So, my favorite form of exercise, my favorite forms are are um dance and yoga. And when you think about the gestures in dance or the the gestures in yoga, the full body gestures, um my favorite proprioceptive feedback are actually these physical signatures of joy. Like your arm stretched out and your gaze lifted and your heart open. And I can start a movement experience feeling depressed and anxious and demoralized, but after, you know, 10 minutes of throwing my arms in the air and looking up and smiling, um my body is like, "You are joy." Um my brain is like, "You are joy." And so, often people get attracted to the forms of movement that give them a sense of self that is really personally meaningful or empowering. And you know, with running, sometimes it's, "I'm free. I'm fast. I'm going somewhere." You're on something insanely powerful that I've never been able to put words to. And I was saying this to somebody not long ago, and I was like, "Okay, so I grew up in a morbidly obese family. Um I used to be 60 lb heavier. And when I got lean for the first time, it was really the first time in my life that I've been lean. But I'd already been working out for a while. So, as I got lean, I was I was literally hard-bodied. And there is something so psychologically rewarding. This is going to sound weird, but this is so [ __ ] true. I stand by this. There is something so psychologically rewarding about like reaching across your body and you hit your pec or something and you're like, "Jesus, that's hard." Or you slap your abs. I was just doing this this morning. And my abs are hard. And I was like it it sounds dumb to say it to somebody, but it's [ __ ] awesome. Like there is some weird feedback loop in your brain where I'm like, "I don't even know why this is so awesome, but my some subconscious part of me while I didn't think I was a bad person when I was heavier or anything like that, but I was not getting a positive reinforcement loop from encountering my own body in the way that and I'm talking like you're not even thinking about this. I'm not talking about looking in the mirror. I'm talking about when you feel like when you feel a t-shirt tight across your arm when you flex your arm. That there's some signal that gets sent. When you bump yourself and whoa, it's like that was unexpectedly hard. There's there is something really powerful in that. And And what you're describing is exactly what I get in the gym. I am strong. I remember so again, I'm not setting any strength records, but my highest deadlift was I think 385 lb. And I thought, "I [ __ ] bent over and picked up almost 400 lb. Like that's crazy." And when you start thinking about stuff like that and you're putting in that energy and you see that reward and your body is changing, the amount that it changes your mind is crazy. you know, in my book I I write about that a woman who she actually had a plan to take her own life and she went to the gym and she deadlifted a personal best and it literally in the moment of sensing her own strength that she decided she want she wanted to live. And I think that so often movement can give us these these moments of feeling what is possible in yourself and for yourself through this very concrete way. You know, I one of the ways that I've experienced that I've had a lifelong fear of flying. I hate flying and for years I refused to fly. And when I decided that I finally wanted to face that fear I knew I had to learn how to deal with how I feel on a plane, like my heart pounding and I feel like I can't breathe and I feel like I'm trapped. And I thought like when cuz I couldn't practice by getting on a plane, that's too much. But when else have I ever felt that way? And I realized the one time I'd been to a indoor cycling class. Uh I hated it. I felt like I was trapped. I couldn't breathe. My heart was pounding. I wanted to escape. But I felt like the the instructor had locked the doors and there was no way to get out of the room. So I started going to indoor cycling classes as a way to practice um getting used to what it feels like to be on a plane, to feel trapped and afraid. And what was so crazy about it to me is first of all it worked, right? I learned how to tolerate that discomfort. I learned I can have a voice in my head that says, "You can't handle this. You need to escape." And at the very same time that voice was in my head, I could have the experience of choosing to stay. Like, "No, you decided to do this and so there's room for this voice in your head and also staying." And I learned to tolerate the the sensations of discomfort. But something weird happened where because of the playlist like listening to empowering music that I started to sense the sensations differently. And I started to have an experience where my heart was pounding of feeling not afraid, but like feeling brave and feeling badass. And somehow my brain like reorganized how it experienced the physical sensations of fear so that in moments when I actually was afraid, suddenly I was like, "I guess I'm brave. I guess I'm a badass." And it's so Movement is so amazing in that how it gives us access to to physical feedback that allows us to have this different sense of self. And again, I'm I'm always encouraging people to figure out what's that movement for you because this isn't about, you know, believing everyone should exercise in a certain way to achieve some sort of ideal health and certainly not some sort of like ideal appearance, but that every form of movement has its own empowering effects on your mind and often it's a matching process. Figure out what that is. Yeah, what you were saying about bravery, I think it is so important. So, Jordan Peterson has a whole thing. So, he was a is, I guess, still a clinical psychologist and so has tons of patients and he would deal with people with severe phobias. And he said that when you do um immersion therapy, he said, "You're not making it less scary for them. What you're teaching them is that courage and bravery are powerful and that they're more powerful than fear." And so, the physiological symptoms may not even change for them, but their framing around that does. And I know you've talked a lot about the importance of framing and the way that you see something. Um how do you see that play out in people's lives? What's the importance around framing? Um are there other ways that you encourage people to do that? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So, you know, the idea that you just expressed actually is, I think, one of the core principles of of everything I've ever tried to teach people, which is that you can have an inner experience that is telling you you must do one thing or you can't do this other thing and you can at the same time choose something that's consistent with your values. I mean, certainly exposure therapy is like a very advanced version of that, where some part of you wants to be able to go out in public or to talk to someone and overwhelming anxiety says, "This is You can't do it." And most people choose to try to control their inner experience rather than choose the action that's most consistent with their values and their goals. So, you know, this is true whether we're trying to overcome addiction, whether we are choosing to stay alive when there are voices in our head that are severely depressed and and taunting us. Um whether we're choosing to overcome anxiety. Um that that often the one skill you need is to say I can't always control my inner experiences, but I can make a choice right now that I know my future self will be grateful for, that reflects my core values, and I'm going to learn how to tolerate this inner experience. Um and that's true for stress. It can be also true for pain. You know, I'm someone who is in pain most of the time because I have chronic pain. And that was the very first thing that pain taught me is um you can choose to do things in a uh physical or psychological circumstance that is less than ideal, but you can make room for everything that's going on inside of you and still engage with life. So, you know, this is that is literally the theme of everything that I try to share with people, and you can learn it through therapy, you can learn it through meditation, which is often just one big giant you're sitting with things in your in your mind and your body that you don't want to deal with. And um you definitely learn it through exercise because so much of exercise is actually um learning a new way to not only deal with physical discomfort because I mean exercise is hard. I'm not one of those people who says, you know, you don't really need exercise. You can just do the easy thing. Like don't you don't have to squat, you can just, you know, stand up and stretch and you're done. Like no, you like the more intense probably the better for every aspect of you. And so you're going to be uncomfortable, you're going to get tired, there's going to be a voice in your head that says you have to stop. Um you know, there will literally be feedback from your muscles that say you should stop. And you learn how to how to negotiate and figure out what matters most to you and push through that. Okay, there's a couple things in there that I want to talk about. You've spoken very eloquently about pain, uh yoga for pain management. One, what is it that drives the chronic pain that you've had to deal with? And two, how do you deal with it mentally and physically? Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to know? So, um I as an I I have no answer for you in terms of what the pain is. Um you know, I started experiencing really debilitating headaches as far back as I have a memory of being alive. So, I don't know when it started. You know, in my family history I there's always oh, Kelly has her headache. Now, she's lying under a blanket, you know. And is your sister? You identical twin, right? Yeah, she she does not have the type of pain I have. She developed migraines um after a traumatic brain injury. But, for whatever reason growing up, you know, she she did not share that particular aspect of my nervous system. And uh you know, it's sort of hard to explain, but the way I usually try to explain it to people is I understand that most people when they wake up in the morning, if they just keep going, they get hungry and they get tired. I get pain. Like in the same way that that's just what my nervous system produces. And so, it'll often start with a mild headache, and then there's face pain, and then there's like things stabbing me in the eye, and it's just it's all often up here, sometimes systemic. Um and none of the So, some people who have chronic pain dedicate their lives to figuring it out and fixing it. And nobody ever talked to, no specialist ever had a uh explanation for or a treatment that made sense to me. So, I have chosen just to live with it and to um take care of myself in ways that I know make it sustainable. And it's funny that my biggest trigger for pain is actually talking. There's something about Yeah, I know, [clears throat] right? Cuz I'm a teacher and a speaker and um the most fulfilling activities in my life often are through interaction and communication. So, I had to make a choice very early on that said I was going to choose the thing professionally that I found the most value in and the most immediate value. Like maybe I helped someone today. Like I taught a class and I someone said something afterwards and like that was valuable. I know it was valuable. And know that I will go home and feel like I was run over by a truck every time. And just to choose that and be like that's that's a cycle that I can live with. Um and uh you know, it goes back to that idea that you can choose your values over trying to control your inner experiences. So, I basically abandoned trying to figure it out or I think like the last time I went to a doctor for it was like 2014 or 2015. You just gave me the chills. I knew you were going to say values there and that was the other thing that I wanted to talk to you about. So, um what is it like you you talk about values I think really interestingly maybe more than most people I've encountered in my life and I think values are so important. So, why are values important to you? How do you come up with them? You tell people they should have core values. Like why? I values are I mean they are I I think this is true for everyone, but I don't know. They're the thing that that gives you direction. That give you courage. Um I will say that you know, everyone has individual personality strengths. I think one of my greatest personality strengths is a really strong gut response when things are value consistent or inconsistent. Like I don't realize it you know, a week later a year later or like maybe that wasn't really consistent with my values. It like assaults me. The sense of like you know, this is um that this is or it excites me. Like I feel like literally when something is values-consistent, there's like a a hook on my heart and I get hooked and pulled forward and that it it gives me the energy or it gives me the courage. It's not what other people value you for. So, it's not like what's valuable about you. It's not are you smart? Are you, you know, whatever? It's um when you are engaged in that activity or role where you are offering something to the world or bringing something to a relationship or you you are demonstrating a particular strength or virtue, you feel there's just a natural reward for it. It's like you are in alignment. And I think that when people reflect on the moments they feel most alive and most proud of themselves or most connected to something bigger than themselves, you can start to identify this is the role, this is the relationship, this is the the priority, this is the way of being. And you know, so one of my values is enthusiasm, which is a value that I like not even a lot of other people value it. And do you mean to be enthusiastic? Yes. To to live in enthusiasm, to be unafraid to be enthusiastic whether I'm being like a fan at a concert. I'm like, "Oh my god, there's Todrick Hall." It was just like last week. Um like just be so sincerely enthusiastic to um to share in other people's joy, to like to be able to catch other people's joy, um to love what I love. Uh that that is something I know it sustains me, it lights me up, and it gives other people permission to also like to freely be a fan or freely share in joy or freely celebrate things that maybe are not important, but that just make you happy. Um so, that's a core value for me and I feel like there're things like that, too. Like the values don't have to be things that are virtues, you know, like honesty is my value. I try to be honest, but I don't wake up in the morning and think, "Today, I bring honesty to the world." You know, I think, "Today, I'm bringing enthusiasm. Today, I'm going to bring compassion." You know, that's another core value. Um, today I A value I've been working with a lot lately is local community and I realized that that was a value when I didn't have much of it and I was doing so much travel that I was losing contact with like actual people I live near. That that kind of neighborhood um type of community connection. So, sometimes you know what your values are because it's that thing that you long for. You're like like there's something missing and that can be a value, too. And you can choose it without feeling like you're already good at it. I mean, you know, the value doesn't have to be the thing that comes easy. Courage is another one of my values because my default temperament is fear and dread. So, work hard on the courage aspect. That's amazing. Compassion, self-compassion. You teach people how to do that. Yeah. How did that become a thing? How do you teach somebody to be more compassionate? And then, what's easier? Teaching someone to be compassionate or self-compassionate? Oh, okay, such good questions. So, let's define compassion. So, this is this is my area of research for the past decade or so and the kind of like the scientific working definition of compassion is that it is a response to suffering. So, you become aware of some pain or suffering and there's a part of you that is moved by that. Sometimes like upset about it, distressed by it, touched by it. And there's another part of you that thinks I can do something to relieve the suffering. I want to do something to relieve the suffering. And so, you respond in some way, whether it's through listening or taking action or standing up for someone. So, it's this cycle of responding to suffering. And often, like ideally, it includes a sense of of hope and empowerment, a sense of of maybe love. There's also a kind of a warm glow to it. So, it's not it's not a response to suffering that's fueled primarily by anger. It's not a response to suffering that's fueled primarily by empathic distress, like, "Oh my gosh, you're sad. Like, I can't handle that. I don't like sadness. Let me cheer you up so I don't have to have this sadness infection." Um that's not compassion, right? It's it's a response to suffering that's driven by an actual desire to see that that suffering relieved. And uh taking some kind of joy or meaning in that in that act of trying, of responding. So, the way that you teach people compassion is first of all to recognize this is a basic human instinct. And even people who get diagnosed as being sociopaths, um often have compassion. It's just a narrow circle, right? So, so pretty much all human beings have the capacity. It's what caregiving is rooted in, you know, so a caregiver and their child or their pet, or there's this instinctive response. You see them suffering and you want to scoop them up and protect them and take care of them. So, this is a basic human instinct. And teaching compassion is often about figuring out where in the process you are you're shutting down or being less effective. So, for some people, the teaching of compassion is about the awareness aspect. You know, like maybe you you are aware when your partner or your child is suffering, but there's a kind of a like a compassion blindness. Like, you don't really see the suffering in the people you work with because you're so focused on yourself or it's hard to understand the the life experiences of people who are different from you, so you don't really see their suffering. So, for a lot of people, the teaching of compassion is this kind of cognitive empathy. Like you you actually have to learn to pay attention and to imagine what it's like to be other people and to ask people about their experiences. So, that can be one aspect of what it means to teach compassion. It's like literally wake up and learn to see more clearly. For other people, they're like overwhelmed by the suffering. They see it all, they feel it all. And where they fall down is being overwhelmed by that. I see all the suffering in the world and then I just feel powerless or overwhelmed or I feel like that that suffering is so contagious that now I just need to escape it. And so, the strength that needs to be developed is that actually the strength that we were talking about earlier to tolerate that initial distress so that you can choose action rather than being overwhelmed by it. For other people, it's about training the resources. Like you want to be compassionate, but no one ever really demonstrated to you what it's like to listen to someone. And so, you actually train in listening or maybe you need actual skills. people to listen cuz their first instinct is just going to be to be quiet and point their eyes at the person. Well, that's not a bad that is Let me tell you something. Okay, having done it, that is actually not most people's [laughter] first instinct. Most people listen with their mouths. They will immediately jump in and try to um So, they they set out to listen and they want to share and problem-solve and talk back because that's one of the ways that we connect. But actually, the very first listening exercise that I teach in my compassion trainings, um I call it listening with your heart. And uh it would be like if we were doing a partner exercise. So, let's say the exercise is to share what brought you to this training. So, you do your little reflection, you know what you're ready to share. You partner up and then first of all, I always ask who typically talks first and make them the listener first to really get in your mindset that actually the most important thing here know that No, no. Usually not at all. No. So how would they know who talks more? It's not So not comparison like are you the type of person who would usually volunteer to talk? Are you like Like you've been in this room for 10 minutes and you haven't said anything yet and really you're thinking that ratio is wrong. There are people who know. And then I guide the listener in this contemplation. You close your eyes and you bring attention to your physical heart. Not particularly woo-woo about this, but literally there's a heart in your body that is beating. You bring your attention to it. You sense your lungs on either side of your heart and you just imagine you're breathing in and out of your heart. Start to bring some awareness down there. And then usually people can feel that. And then I ask them to imagine that they are dropping their ears to where their lungs are. It's just It's a visualization. Just imagine your ears are where your lungs are on either side of your heart. You imagine dropping your eyes down there. So you've got like your nostril, your ears, and your your eyes here. And you do not move your mouth. We are listening from the heart. And you listen with your whole body. And so you turn your attention to the person who's sharing. And when you are listening with your whole body, often your body language is open. Your eye contact is not particularly aggressive. And you literally imagine that you're breathing in what the other person is sharing. And you just let it land without having to respond. And you set the intention to understand the other person's experience with the assumption that there's nothing you ever have to do or say back. Like that's the first training we do. And actually we don't let people respond in the first exercise. You literally aren't allowed. When we make it more advanced, we do things like reflective listening where you you share what you heard very close to the language they used. And then the next level of appreciative listening where you say what really resonated with you and you you put yourself a little bit more into the conversation. That's an advanced skill. Um but that that idea, you know, how you train listening is you have to change your mindset that it's about understanding. It's not the point where you're waiting to jump in. And uh, anyways. But we could talk so now I'm going to be quiet because I could like go through the whole compassion training program. Well, I really want to get to the self-compassion. I think that that's something that a lot of people in my audience struggle with is how to, you know, feel, how to maybe forgiveness? I'm not sure. In fact, that's part of what I'm super curious to know. Like when you say to be self-compassionate, what do you mean? What do you get people to focus on? Is it dropping their eyes and ears down in their own heart or is it something completely different? you asked which was harder first of all. Self-compassion is definitely harder for most people and it is harder to teach because it's harder for most people. And I think about this from an evolutionary point of view. Compassion as an instinct is connected to the caregiving system. It exists to help us respond to suffering that is outside of ourselves. Compassion does not function sort of ideally and naturally when we have to be the object of it and the source of it. That is not what compassion exists for. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have compassion for yourself, but you know, I think of all emotions and these capacities we have, they are there for a purpose and compassion is for responding to the suffering of others. And we have other very powerful instincts that compete with compassion when the suffering is our own. Shame is one, um, sadness is one, depression, anger, um, worry and anxiety. And these are, you know, strong, evolutionarily adaptive emotions that motivate us to actually seek perhaps the help of others or to sometimes to withdraw and try to figure things out. Um, but they themselves often produce a lot of suffering and can keep us from being really effective. And so, the first step is is deciding that you are worthy of compassion, that you deserve compassion. people to do that? Well, I often do it sideways. So, there's a step in our compassion training called common humanity, which is about recognizing what all human beings have in common, which is the desire to be happy, the desire to be loved, the desire to contribute, and the um constant experience that falls short from that, that we all know physical pain, we all know disappointment, we all know rejection, we all know anger, we all know fear. And usually, if people have through their own experiences, you know, maybe a difficult childhood, a traumatic relationship, um that that they've come to the conclusion that they can't trust others or that they aren't worthy of compassion, often the the first intuition is you have to go in and fix that at like the you level. Let me tell you why you are worthy. Let them create a story about you. But actually, the thing that breaks it open for most people, we you already know that you're human, and when you come to recognize that all humans suffer and all humans are trying to be happy, and everything that people do is an expression of that, even if it's not skillful, that that often breaks the heart open in a way that's more powerful than like some sort of therapy conversation about why you specifically are deserving. That's really interesting. So, um I do this thing called Impact Theory University, talk about mindset, people fly me all over the place to talk about building businesses and stuff. And one thing that I'm always coming back to is self-worth is where people are really tripping themselves up. And so, because I went through this and my big problem was I could and this is like I'm not being humble. This this is everything's a bell curve and I know where I fall on the intellectual bell curve. And I always saw myself as just smart enough to realize how much smarter some people are. And the people that really went on to do extraordinary things I was like I I am smart enough to be aware of my inadequacies and that always felt like this really gnarly trap. That seems like a pretty good place to be actually. But I mean we don't need to get into that. But I was young it was not but you're absolutely right. It ends up paying off dividends once I cobbled together the the sort of following insight which is exactly what you were saying which is once I realized that the average human is the ultimate adaptation machine and the very thing that we are evolutionarily designed to do is grow and change, right? So culture stacks. So it's like a horse is born, a dolphin is born. It It can just do its thing within like 20 minutes. A human is not that way. And so we are designed to drink in all this culture and so we sort of stay, you know, um we have to be to your point about caregiving, we have to be taken care of and all that. So it's two different evolutionary strategies. Pre-wire everything or no, allow them to absorb but they're going to need to be taken care of. Now in choosing that path of needing to be taken care of then your very design is to adapt to your surroundings, to your culture, to knowledge, all of that stuff. So I thought, okay, well wait a second. If that's what humans are actually designed to do and look, I admit we're not blank slates. So some amount is hardwired, let's ballpark it at 50%. 50% of who we are is written in stone, there's nothing you're going to be able to do to change it. But 50% is changeable and the life-altering effects of changing that 50% even not skillfully, as you said, is still radically transformative. So I thought, okay, I'm willing to accept that I'm an average human. Maybe even a little below average. I actually don't believe that about myself but I'm saying even if you were a little bit below average, you still fall somewhere in that bell curve. The amount that you can change is extraordinary. Far better to focus on that." So, I always tell people, "There's only one belief that matters, and that belief is that you're roughly an average human, and that the average human is designed to grow and change." And so, now just invest everything into that. And it's really interesting. I've never heard anybody else say that, that like you just need to anchor yourself to being average. Like, all humans do this. All humans have that same wants and desires, and why not have compassion for yourself? Now, I remember that was one of the very first insights I had as a psychology undergraduate. I remember one day just thinking, "Wow, like if you don't need to be better than other people, it's just so much easier." Are you really not trying to be better? Than other people? I secretly am. Not secretly, it's my obsession. Yeah. But, not in like a You said earlier, "Oh god." I don't remember the exact words you used. It's not like I Oh, virtue. So, you said it's not when I talk values, I'm not talking about virtue. Like, I don't think that it makes me better like that. I'm just trying to outplay. Oh. So, to me the name of the game is how many How much of your potential can you turn into usable skills? And so, that to me is a fun game that I play with compassion. I care deeply about the other players. I am not a step on somebody's neck to get ahead kind of guy. That's not interesting to me. I'd like to see other people win, but I also want to win. Well, you know, so there are these two human drives, cooperation and competition. Yeah. And I think people you know, they fall on a spectrum of which one is more motivating. I think probably the healthiest is to have both of them being motivating forces, neither one tripping you up too much, cuz you can definitely fall too much in the like give it all away, the sort of cooperation scale. But, um this is you know, I have an identical twin sister, as you mentioned, and this is like the one big distinction between the two of us. She's super competitive, and I just am not. Like, I That's so interesting. The thing that drives me is did you do something today that was of value to the world? Like, were you of any use or not? And I can be very hard on myself about that if I feel like I'm not. So, it's not like there's no self-criticism. I'm not comparing myself to other people or like a hierarchy, but it's very internally. I want to get back to that initial insight that you had. So, for you it was a big moment to realize I don't need to be better than other people. Because growing up your I was always told be the best, be number one. Um it's really important to be better than ever I mean, you know, this is from parents who wanted me to make sure that I was successful to growing up in a town that that prided itself on being number one in a lot of things. And uh I don't know. I just I thought that was the way to be a good human and at some point I realized it was such a barrier to connecting with other people. And that, you know, I I think I remember one in one class. It's such a silly little story, but I remember the professor was like, "You've done so well on your exams. We want to give you the chance to not take the final exam. We know you're going to get an A on it. We're pretty sure. So, you don't have to take the exam, but we want you to tutor somebody who might not pass this class. And so, whatever amount of time you would spend studying for the exam, we want you to tutor her so that she can pass the class." And I was like, "This is the most brilliant thing I've ever heard." And at some like that, it was so much fun. And they were right. I would have gotten an A, but I got to put that time into actually helping someone else who was struggling. And I feel like that was a turning point where I started to think like, "How can that be my orientation?" Where instead of if there's a way to invest time where it's about me performing well versus contributing. Like, how do I redirect the energy so that it's not about my performance as much as it's about my contribution? That is so interesting to me. All right, there's so much about you that's interesting. All the stuff that you write about is really intriguing. Where can people find out more about you? Uh my website kellymcdonigal.com and on all the social media, you know, just as me, Kelly McGonigal. Nice. Okay, so what is ultimately the impact that you want to have on the world? What I hope every day when I wake up is that something I do, whether it's a dance class that I'm teaching or it's a book that I wrote 10 years ago or maybe it's somebody listening to this I hope that I think about this every day. There's somebody who right now is facing something in their lives that they aren't sure they can handle. And something I did or said or wrote gives that person a sense that A, they are not alone and B, that that they are adequate to their own life in this moment, even if it's nothing they would have chosen for themselves. Oh, that's pretty good. Guys, her work spans a a whole gamut of things that I think is really intriguing. The movement stuff I think is incredible in terms of its impact on depression, anxiety, and connection, which is no one is talking about that the way that she's talking about that. Read it. I think you will find it very powerful. Her whole library of books are incredibly amazing and if you haven't seen her TED Talk, do yourself a favor. And if you haven't yet subscribed, be sure to do so. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Kelly, that was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. fun. Yeah, that was fantastic. Failure [music] is just an event. It's not a characteristic and here's one of the things that has [music] really helped me in that regard. I win or I learn, but I never lose. [music] I live my life by mantras. I'm a pretty simple girl. Like they Right? They