Something Is Very Wrong With Modern Life - Arthur Brooks

Why do so many people feel like modern life is simulated rather than real? >> Because it is. We're living in the Matrix. That movie, The Matrix, came out 27 years ago. I hate to shock and sadden you. It'll make anybody who was alive then feel old. But the plot of that movie was that a great artificial intelligence was dominating the human race and kept the human race placid in a pleasant simulation so that it could feed off human kinetic energy. It kept them in pods and ran a simulation. And and the truth of the matter is that we are subjugated not by people necessarily, but by algorithms that fundamentally are creating a simulated version of a real life that's pleasant enough, keeps us from being bored and that feeds off our attention and energy and money. We're living in the matrix. And that's why people say, "I don't know. It doesn't feel like real dating. Is it does it doesn't feel like real friends?" Scroll. Scroll. Scroll. It doesn't feel like real achievement game game because we're living in a simulation. >> What's happening neurologically though? >> So what's happening neurobiologically is that we're literally in the wrong half of our brains. So this is the work of Ian McGillchrist, the great Have you had him on the show? >> Friend of the show. >> He's fantastic. He's an Oxford neuroscientist. He's, you know, a great genius. And and he brought back the whole idea of hemispheric lateralization. That's the the concept that the two halves of your brain do different things. I mean, they do a lot of things the same, too. But the fact is that they have different core competencies. Now, when I was a kid in the 70s, this is long before you youngsters were born, there was this belief that there were right and leftrain people. Right people were creative. Leftrain people were analytical. My mom, who was an artist, was a right-brain person. My father, who was a mathematician, was a leftbrain person. Growing up, I was a right-brain person like my mom because I was a musician. and I was a classical musician and I painted and I wrote poetry and and then I got my PhD and I became apparently a leftrain person because I became a scientist. Well, the truth is that that theory didn't work. What does work, however, is what Ian McGill brought back to show that we have we ask and answer different questions with the different hemispheres of our brain. The right hemisphere is the complex why, the mystery and meaning of life, the things that set us out in the hunt for the things that matter in life. The left brain is the how to and what. It's how we execute. It's the linear side. It's the analysis. It's the engineering. It's the apps of life or the leftbrain side. And what's happening is when we're running a simulation of life, we're running a leftbrain simulation to meet our rightbrain questions of love and mystery and meaning. And you can't simulate the meaning of life. >> Is it not a good thing for people to be more rational and analytical and objective? Is this not something that only a couple of decades ago we were trying to push more on people? >> Yeah, I suppose. Except that we need both. The truth is that we need both because life is full of both kinds of problems. Look, if you if you don't know the why of the things in your life, the how to and what mean nothing. But if you only know the how to and what, then the why and the and the why is elusive. I mean, you get the point that I'm trying to make. I mean, you can either be incompetent in executing anything in your life or you'll have no purpose in the life that you lead. You actually need both. You know, I go to work every day. I'm, you know, traveling around doing my job. It's great. I know how to do it. I'm competent at it because my left brain is working properly. I know how to get where I'm trying to go and >> do what I'm trying to do. I can write my speeches and my columns and books, etc. >> But I got to know why, which is that I want to do something good for the world. I want to support the people that I love. I want to glorify God. That's what I want. That's the why side. And that originates on the right side of our brains. And furthermore, all the things we really care about are not the analytical things. The things that we care about are not the physical, they're the metaphysical. That's what we really care about. So, I'll give you an example. A big left brain question is how does my car work? I actually don't know. I have the slightest idea, right? [laughter] It's just I mean it's a car, right? And but I could know because I could actually get a book or I could, you know, get a guy and come teach me or I could watch a bunch of YouTube videos and that's knowable because those are complicated leftbrain questions. My marriage is a right brain problem. It's completely unsolvable. I have to live with it. I can't figure it out. I will never figure out my marriage. Dude, I've been married 35 years before you just, you know, an hour ago. She texts me, "I love you. Good luck on the podcast." I'm sure it's true. She loves me. Tonight, I could call and she might be completely pissed off at me. I I don't know. Oh yeah, but you did decide to date somebody with Latina blood. >> It's Well, that that adds that adds a level of complexity, I grant you. >> Correct. It's like a Yeah, it's a multiplier. >> She's a big pulsing right hemisphere, right? [laughter] >> Sure enough. But but this is the thing. The reason I love my marriage is because it's unsolvable, right? The reason people want to get a a real cat, not a mechanical cat, is because it's alive. And things that are alive are right brain problems and things that are mechanical are leftbrain problems. And so what we've done is we've we've solved life. We've solved life. I mean we have I mean everything we're trying to the the engineering the Silicon Valley set of solutions for everything that we're trying to do that actually pops through the screen at us that dominates our culture that increasingly can be simulated and understood through artificial intelligence. All that's doing is it's a curve fit through the messy business of life using these leftbrain algorithms and that's not going to get done what we need to get done. It is going to leave us >> lonier and more depressed and more anxious. Here's the thing. Your brain knows. So, for example, this is one of the reasons that the more pornography people look at, largely young men, because more than 85% of pornography is being consumed by men. Now, you're thinking yourself, I know what you're thinking. Who are the 15%? >> Old men. No. [laughter] So, >> is it you? >> Thank you. Thank you very much. [laughter] So, they the more pornography that men look at, the the lonier they get. So, in the moment they feel less lonely and the more satisfied they feel, but the more unsatisfied and the lonelier they actually get because it's a simulation for the experience they're actually seeking and it's unsatisfactory as a result of that. You want actual human connection with another person. That's what you actually want. And you're settling for a a two-dimensional similacum for it. >> What are some of the other counterfeit sources of meaning that people mistake for the real thing? >> Achievement is a counterfeit source is something that you actually get that doesn't build anything real of any real consequence in life. So, the idea is like the score in a game gives you a real uh short-term sense of of achievement, which is a source of purpose, which is a component of meaning, >> but it isn't real. It's fake. It's a it's a it's counterfeit. It's a it's simulated. And that's one of the reasons that you'll find you got to do more and more and more and more and more to keep up with it. You don't you know, they used to say if you want to if you really want to live a good life, you know, you need to do you need to have a son, plant a tree, and write a book. I don't know. I've done all those things. I don't know if I planted a tree. [laughter] >> That's what you're missing. >> I don't have a green thumb, you know. So, this isn't my problem. I mean, plant more trees. But the whole point is that what those things have in common is that they're real. >> They're in real life. They're real achievements in real life. They don't say, "Plant a tree online, you know, pretend you're planting a tree, you know, get really good at doing it. Have a sun online." You know, the whole idea of simulating these experiences is unsatisfactory. What it does, it it simulates the experience in the moment. That's another example. Having friends is another way is another way we think about it. Virtual friends, they they simply don't meet your needs. And one of the ways that we know this is that the more virtual friends that you have, the less that you're actually illuminating in the experience of interacting with them, the right hemisphere of your brain. You know, one one of the reasons that you don't like to do your show virtually is because you don't have the same experience. And the reason is that you and I are connecting with our right brains right now. our right. You and I are friends. I mean, we text and talk to each other even when we're not doing a show, which is great >> because we're friends and we have that texting relationship because we've actually looked at each other in the eyes and had real no fooling conversations with each other. And that's how you have to link with other human beings. Otherwise, it's a simulated friendship. It's one of the biggest realizations I had [clears throat] when I was trying to work out what I wanted to do with my life toward the end of my 20s. I had all of these friends because shock horror in the nightlife industry in the northeast of the UK, there weren't many people that were into the things I was getting into. There weren't many people that, you know, maybe they'd heard about Sam Harris and they were thinking about doing meditation or they'd read a bit of Robert Green and then got stuck after a couple of pages and then were struggling with that and then felt real bad because they couldn't sit still. Like all of these things that I was going through, it was I was finding it difficult on the front door of a nightclub to find people to resonate with. So I made friends online that were into the same sort of things that I was. And I found that these friends kind of distilled out into two str of people. Even if all that I'd done was as I was going through a city on a train, >> stopped off for a 30inut coffee with someone, that person immediately went into a different bracket of I've actually met this person. They're real. In three dimensions, they're real. >> And uh cuz your brain actually apprehended that person in a different way. Yeah, >> what you did was you had an imprint of that person in you know flesh and blood in real life which is by the way how the brain was evolved. You know, we are our brains are more or less the same size and shape. Slight physiological differences, but trivial for what we're talking about here as they were 250,000 years ago in the mid in the middle place to scene. >> And during that period, all human beings lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals who are kinbased and hierarchically related. And that meant that the relationship they had with each other was absolutely paramount. And our brains are wired for in-person relationships. That's one of the reasons that you get oxytocin when you look at somebody in the eyes. You and I have a better conversation when we have this bonding hormone that's actually going through our brains when we're looking at each other in real life. You don't get it through Zoom screens. There's a lot of research on this at this point. You get a different kind of experience when you have the in real life experience. And so one of the things that I do when I'm talking to couples and my my wife and I, we do we do work, you know, we do we'll do these marriage retreats, for example. One of the things that we'll do with couples, we'll say, "Okay, before you go to sleep, you need to stare into each other's eyes before you go to sleep." And you're lying on the, you know, lying in the bed, you know, on your sides looking at each other. Stare each other in the eyes for for 5 minutes. >> That that's it. That's the prescription because you want to establish this thing that probably they haven't had for a really really long time >> and that your brain actually needs so that your brain registers that's my person. You can't get it any other way. >> Why is it that meaning can't be simulated? Meaning can't be simulated because meaning is this fundamentally complex right hemispheric experience. And so when you're the simulation is always in the wrong side of the brain. And so it'll look like it's meaningful, but it isn't >> is what it comes down to. It'll feel like in the moment like love, but it isn't. It'll feel like friendship, but it isn't. so interesting with this conversation because a lot of people when when I think about how this lands on the internet there is a kind of cohort of people that will say something like this is good enough this is actually as good there's a a disbelief that you actually do need to go into three dimensions uh there is a a I'm happy to wait for the sector robots to come I'm happy to have the AI partner there's even a company that makes AI versions of your ex's So, if you don't ever want to leave the relationship with them, you can just keep on texting. Um, and I think that kind of when I read those comments, it makes me sad. It makes me sad because I think >> it sounds like somebody who's got hurt or is scared that the world isn't going to be able to give them something that they know that they can get compliantly online uh permissionlessly uh with lower risk of rejection or zero risk of rejection. And um it makes me it makes me sad. But yeah, it's so much of what we're seeing in the modern world is people getting what they want but not what they need. >> And this is something that people need but don't realize that they want. >> Yeah. Well, they do know that they want it. They just don't know how to get it >> and is ordinarily what's actually happening. I mean I I rarely meet somebody who would say I actually would prefer not to meet anybody in real life. I mean there are people who are agorophobic for example. There are people that have particular pathologies along these lines. But the truth is it's they feel like it's the best that they can actually get under the circumstances. Look, when when 62% of couples are forming online, then it's very hard to form. It's increasingly hard to form a a couple offline. >> Mhm. >> And and if you're an exceptionally online person or you're living in a remote location or you, you know, came of age during COVID, which means that you you don't have social skills that were wired into you at a tender age, then then you're going to struggle is what it comes down to. But here's the thing to keep in mind. The biggest predictor of depression and anxiety is is to say I don't know the meaning of my life or my life feels meaningless. That's the number one predictor >> why that well it it it all gets down to the fact that these pathologies that actually follow from this sense of emptiness, you know. So people often say, "So why has depression tripled? Why has anxiety doubled?" Which they literally have clinically since about 2008. Why? and they'll say, "Well, because generational difficulties, because you know, boomers wrecked the economy and created income inequality and and and made houses expensive or something." They have all of these exogenous economic explanations for this stuff. These are all wrong is what it comes down to. Since 2008, when life has become increasingly online and we, you know, the average American is now checking her his phone 205 times a day, what you've done is you shoved yourself into the wrong hemisphere of your brain. And in so doing, you haven't been able to naturally experience this meaning. And that's what leads empirically, that's what actually leads people to feel empty, to feel depressed, to feel anxious, to actually feel lonely. That's the big predictor is what it comes down to. We have a meaning crisis. Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? 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So, get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. Let's say that you're going to design a life for someone to have as little meaning in it as possible. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> What would that consist of? >> It would start by um waking up um when the sun is warm. You know, making sure you don't start your day like before dawn. Make sure you start your day when kind of when you get up. Make sure that if you have an alarm clock that is your phone. Um look at your phone before you roll out of bed, right? Uh then make sure that the first thing that you do is eat a bunch of, you know, highly processed foods high in sugar. Make sure you get your coffee in the first five minutes. Uh, so you get a big dose of caffeine and make sure that you're looking and scrolling on your phone while you're eating your first meal. That's a really important thing to do. Make sure that your whole first hour is neuro is is neurocognitively programmed to be on the screen. Then make sure that you have a remote job. It's very important that you go to work back in your bedroom and and you look at a screen and you look at a screen all day long so that your colleagues are kind of squares on the Zoom screen and you see them sometimes in the clients and etc etc and you don't actually know where anybody lives and you don't have a relationship with anybody, right? It's actually better if you don't see anybody the whole day as a matter of fact. Now, if you're going to date, make sure that it's it's swipe right, swipe left, swipe left, and so that you're only getting a two-dimensional understanding of the person that you might want to fall in love with as well. like no multi-dimensional, multi-ensory understanding of who the person is. Make sure you can't smell that person, right? I mean, that's really important because, you know, the alactory bulb does all kinds of meaning related things in the brain. So, make sure you rule that out, right? Um, and make sure that on your own dating profile you're lying a lot. That's important, too, right? [laughter] Then, uh, let's make sure that that for fun that you're spending sort of the evening not doing anything of of real importance. I mean, you're not working on a big project. you're not going out and seeing people that you're kind of staying in and scrolling uh and and watching YouTube shorts and and if you're doing something that's kind of competitive and achievement oriented, make sure it's gaming. Make sure that you know it's really oriented toward that. So, it's kind of writing your life in disappearing ink. >> Um and and then go to bed. Make sure you didn't do any exercise. Important not to do any exercise at all, right? And um and then repeat times where n equals any number that you can conceive of so that that that you're never bored. You're never bored, but your life is grindingly boring. See, here's the key. If you want your life to have no meaning, make sure that there's no boredom moment to moment, but that day to day and week to week and month to month, life is boring. That's what you're actually going for. as opposed if you want your life to be really meaningful, make sure you got plenty of boredom moment to moment and then then your life won't be boring at all. Isn't >> that a strange paradox? >> It is. I mean, my my great-grandfather um Leroy Brooks, he was born in Tha, Kansas. He married the sheriff's daughter. John James was the sheriff. Was strung up by Quantrell's raiders during the Civil War. Kid you not. This is Americana in my family, Chris. and and and and he married Mary Ellen in Ta Kansas. And that's pretty much what I know about him. But I'm gonna make a a prediction about good old Leroy. He never came home to Mary Ellen and said, "Honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today." [sighs] His brain was working the way it was supposed to. I promise you that his life behind the mule looking at a mule's butt was was pretty boring moment to moment. But he was not bored. his life wasn't boring because he was living a real life. But a lot of people today who have figured out a way by checking the screen and living online and and living the hustle and grind culture that's been engineered out of Silicon Valley and various other places around the world, hide or bad and wherever you want, that not being bored from moment to moment gives them the most boring lives possible. Is it the case that ambitious people are particularly susceptible, vulnerable to meaninglessness? [sighs and gasps] >> So, asking for a friend, right? >> Of course. [laughter] Of course. >> Me, too. I'm I'm like a senior version of you, man. [laughter] Except you're not going to be bald. >> That's right. I'm going to have to lose a lot of hair to >> You're going to have to lose a lot of hair. I know. If I had your hair, I'd be president of the United States right now. >> I think you would. [laughter] Um, yes and no. So, one of the the the problems that really ambitious people have is that they they they don't know how to live with themselves. So, ambition, striving, busyiness um is is is really a way that people anesthetize themselves because they're very very uncomfortable. So, you know, one I'll give you an example. One time I was talking to a great friend of mine um who traveled constantly for work, constantly for work. And and his wife was just in his grill. It's just like he had kids and and she says that I miss you and and you always every year you tell me that this year is going to be different and and I realized getting to know this guy really really well. The problem wasn't that his job made him travel too much. The problem was he didn't want to be home. >> He didn't want to be home. He wanted to be distracted because his life stressed him out so much. This is what it's like to be a stver is is like having this unbelievably chaotic life and and and you need to distract yourself all the time. And so sometimes your ambition will be distracting you. Sometimes your success will be distracting you. Sometimes your your overriding need to be special or to be applauded by others is your way to distract yourself from all the things that are actually going on, all the storms and things inside your head, right? and and and when you have a down moment then you panic and that's when the screen comes out or or for that matter that's when alcohol and drugs come out. There's very interesting data from the OECD that show that above average busier than average people are above average risk in alcohol in alcohol abuse. So you don't think you think of somebody who's an alcohol abuser or as an alcoholic as somebody who's down and out, you know, you know, a bum, right? No, it's more likely to be an investment banker. It's more likely to be a wealthy, successful podcaster. And and the reason is because successful strivvers anesthetize themselves with drugs and alcohol, with pornography, with screens, with anything that will actually make you like, "Don't leave me alone in here, man. I don't want to be alone in there." >> Which is why they're strivvers in the first place. How often do you think people are pursuing goals because they genuinely want them versus because they want approval? >> So, everybody pursues goals because human beings, homo sapiens, only get satisfaction in their life when they're making progress. It's that satisfaction is the joy of an accomplishment of making progress toward an accomplishment with struggle. That's what satisfaction is all about. That's why that's why goals are incredibly important and struggle and pain are incredibly important. That's what it comes down to. These are the two things to teach your kids is have goals, accomplish stuff, and struggle and don't be afraid of pain. Those are the things that you teach your kids and they'll get a lot of satisfaction. Satisfaction is one of the macronutrients of happiness to be sure. The trouble with that is that if it's somebody like you, highly intelligent, super hardworking, unbelievably energetic, then you can actually start fooling yourself into thinking it's actually not about making the progress and the struggle and the hustle and grind of life itself. It's actually about if I finally get that thing, then it's going to be okay when I finally get that thing. So, you know, I've I've I've worked with Olympic athletes and and and it's funny because you'll often they think they're alone in their struggles and you'll say, "Did you when you won that gold, were you depressed afterwards?" They'll be like, "How'd you know?" Like, cuz it's always true. >> Every other gold medalist. It's literally called gold medalist syndrome. >> Yeah. It's called gold medalist. And and what it is, it's al in in my field in behavioral science is called the arrival fallacy. >> And the arrival fallacy is just like I I I I got to get there and when I get there, I'm going to feel that thing. Now, what what is the thing I'm going to feel? And this gets back to your question. I'm going to feel like I'm worthy. >> I'm going to feel like I'm something. I'm going to feel like I'm special. I'm finally going to feel like I'm special. And you don't. And you don't. And that's the problem. That's what a big part of the driver's curse. >> You know what's fascinating about the arrival fallacy? No one's ever been able to make it popular. >> So, the concept. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Correct. has tell me the most well-known book on the arrival fallacy that points it out exactly. >> Yeah, I know. >> [ __ ] So, I was on my way out to Australia texting Mark Manson about this and I was explaining one of the problems I was trying to navigate with the show, this live show that I was doing that I was putting together and one of them is that a good bit of it is kind of about the the arrival fallacy. It's a PG version because I'm aware that it's >> chronically the most unsexy topic to ever talk about and his response was, "Good luck. I've tried to talk about this publicly and every single time it's fallen flat. It's not just not mimemetic that people don't want to talk about it. It's not just mimemetic neutral that people will accept it and maybe bring it up and maybe not. It's actively anti-mimetic. People don't want to hear it and won't tell their friends about it. >> It is. >> No, I know. I know. >> It feels saying to people that are still climbing, which everybody is, >> the view from the top of the mountain is not as good as you think it's going to be, feels like you're sucking the gas out of their fuel tank. while they're still on the way up. It's like you as a fat person >> saying to someone who's starving, well, you food's not that nice in any case. And it's an unteachable lesson. And the only way that you can learn it is by getting there. And because the the alternative to this with the arrival fallacy is that every successful person ever in history has been inducted into some kind of cult that pulls the ladder up after them where everybody gets the same memo which is so I know that you all of the problems that you had, all of the internal voids, your feeling of insufficiency, the chip on your shoulder from when you were a child, your desperate desire for validation from random humans on the internet. I know that all of that was fixed when you got the 30,000 foot house, but we need to tell the poor that that's not the case. So, you now are a part of this elite group of people that are trying to sigh up everybody else into not trying to strive for it. That's the alternative, which is or is it more likely >> that that's just the sense that the gold medalists got? And that's not to say that it's everyone, but it does seem to be a pretty big cohort, way more than the people that are striving would think it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. So there that there's a reason that is antimmatic and that's because it goes against mother nature. Mother nature wants you to be fooled. The reason that that the that the the ancient Williamsons, right, from some place, some Anglo-Saxon tribe of something something Scotland. Yeah. Yeah. >> The reason they passed on their genes is because they were fooled by mother nature. That they were fooled that they actually they they chased the arrival fallacy again and again and again and again and again. The reason that you're not going to be satisfied, the reason that it can't be satisfied is because mother nature needs you in the hunt. But the only way you're going to stay in the hunt is with a promise that you're finally going to get there. Now, there's a side note to this. There's a metaphysical side note to this, by the way. This is kind of a this is a little a little bit of of a a side note that kind of takes us in the transcendent dimension. We'll come back to the arrival fallacy in a second. But you know there is a philosophical set of arguments for the existence of something which is that the the desire for something is actually proof of the existence of its object. So for example proof that water exists is that I feel thirst. >> Proof or or or evidence that food exists is that I feel hungry. Now I want unremitting happiness. I want it and I feel like I can actually get it somehow, but I I can't. I can't. But that philosophically is a proof that it does exist. >> Not here. That's actually proof of a divine afterlife. Actually, it's evidence of a divine afterlife that you have this hunger for unremitting happiness which suggests that it actually does exist, but you can't get it in this life. Maybe you can get it someplace else is what it comes down to. And this is one of the great proofs in most of the both Abrahamic and karmic religions for the existence of nirvana heaven whatever it happens to be. Anyway, mother natur back to this the question at hand. Why would mother nature play this trick on us? Because because we got to stay hungry. She wants us to stay hungry. So she's wired in a mistake. She's wired in a mistake. He's wired in something that it is such a deep mistake that we make again and again and again that even when people speak a manifest truth that people deeply believe they still will reject it. I remember when David Brooks, you know, the author David Brooks, he and I are super old friends. We're not related. Share a surname. It's common surname. It's a common surname, right? And so, um, my Brookses, you know, snuck out of Lancaster in in 1630 to Massachusetts, one step ahead of the county sheriff, but in his came later. Anyway, David Brooks, he said, I remember years and years and years ago, he said, you know, being number one in the New York Times bestseller list, it's really not that great. We're having lunch and I said, "Let me try. Let me see how it feels." Right? And and that was exactly the point that you made. Now, now Ryan Holidayiday talks about that, too. The first time he had a book that was number one in the New York Times bestsellers, he's like, "This is great." And the next week it was some yo-yo who had a stupid book as number one. And he realized how how little it actually meant, but he wanted the next one to be number one, too. Actually, it's more tyrannical than that because if your next one doesn't make number one, now you used to be great. And there's almost nothing worse than that. >> Yeah. The only thing worse than never having made it is having fallen off. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I almost I I wanted to do a show at one point. I talked to a producer about the idea of a TV show um called I used to be famous where you know I as a behavioral scientist will go talk to people who are like living relatively ordinary lives and they used to be famous. Some are happy, some are not. Some are addicts, some are crazy, some are like normally married. >> Fascinating show. Wildly unpopular, [laughter] >> you know, like just it's just >> Yeah. But if you if you if you want to have that, it's the underdog story. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's from zero to hero, not from her to zero. Although it's pretty interesting when you when you hear about people who are living who are much much much happier than they were in the limelight. >> You know, when people are living ordinary lives um and and they're they used to be really famous and people go, "Oh, I remember he was so and so in the Partridge family or something. Now he's got a happy marriage and four kids and you know he you know he works for a cardboard box company or something." How can people work out the meaning that they've got in their life? What are the big questions they should ask? >> Yeah. So um there are three big why questions that constitute meaning. And this actually comes from the work of Michael Steager who's a a really good um social psychologist at uh u in Colorado and he uh he has the three parts the three elements of meaning which are called coherence purpose and significance and there are three why questions. Number one is you have to have an answer to the question, you know, why are things happening the way they are in my life? You know, things are happening all around me all the time. Why? Part of meaning is having an answer to that. Maybe that's a maybe that's your religious answer like because of the mind of God. Maybe that's your scientific answer because these are the laws of the universe. Maybe you're a conspiracy theorist and say because powerful people are doing these things. >> Conspiracy theories are nothing more than crying out for an answer to the coherence question which is a meaning problem. You know, when so so if you have a a relative who's going down the rabbit hole on the craziest conspiracy theories, don't you don't throw data in their face and say, "You [ __ ] that's the wrong way to approach it. They're they're having a meaning crisis. They're having a happiness crisis is the reason they're doing this in the first place." So coherence, number one, you know, why things happen the way they do. Second, why am I doing what I'm doing? That's purpose. Purpose and meaning are not the same. Purpose is goals and direction so you can make progress. So why am I doing what I'm doing? And if the answer is I don't know, then you can't make progress because you're just going in circles. You're just a a Carnival cruise ship just kind of randomly going around and round and round and around. It's the reason I find cruises unbelievably depressing. They don't go someplace, >> right? I'm a teological individual like you. I want a goal, right? And that's purpose. And and so in the in the in the research, you know, Sonia Luba's stuff, have you had her on the show? >> She's coming on next week or the week after. >> Super good. Yeah, she's awesome. and she's at UC Riverside and she does these work on goals and you'll give students these just random goals like you're getting a B minus in physics. You know, let's get a B+ this semester. Just that goal, they get happier, they get more directed, life seems better because they have more meaning in their life. That's what it comes down to. Even arbitrary goals work better to have meaningful goals. >> And last but not least is significance. And that's my life matters. you know, my life matters to someone, you know, to my dog, to my wife, to to God, to my kids. And so that's the love question. And all these things are completely missing in modern culture for so many people. You know, why do things happen the way that they do? It's just random. I don't know. Why am I doing what I'm doing? I have no idea. I get up and I scroll. I get up and I surf. I get up and I go on a Zoom meeting for a company I don't really care about. And and and you know, what is the significance of my life? Why does my life matter? I don't think it does. >> And that's those are the three things to actually keep in mind. >> Before we continue, most people in their 30s are still training hard. Their protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. The margin for error starts to shrink. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of timeline. You see, mitochondria are the energy producers inside of your muscle cells. As they weaken with age, your ability to generate power and recover effectively changes even if your habits stay strong. Mitoure from timeline contains the only clinically validated form of urethylene A used in human trials. 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So you you're not an active player in your own life when there is no coherence. When you don't see a pattern, it's a big problem. You know, when you when you the you remember when you learn to drive, >> how old do you have to be in in the UK? >> 17. >> Okay. And and when you first, you know, you got a lot of confidence, but when you're looking at the traffic and like and it's like it's like chaos, >> wildly intimidating. I learned to drive in a mini, which is a very British way to do it, but it's [ __ ] terrifying. You're like half the height of everybody else. >> Yeah. [laughter] And you know, any any system that you're in that doesn't seem to make sense, that's that that that it tends to feel really really meaningless because you don't know what you can actually do to have some sense of agency. There's no sense of agency when there is no coherence is what it comes down to. So for example, if you believe that things happen the way they do because that's what God wills, then you're going to try to work that lover. You're going to pray, for example, you're going to have a relationship with God. If you believe it's because of the laws of science, you're going to learn more about science and you're going to actually enter into that particular dimension. So for example, I'm a behavioral scientist. I really believe in science. I really believe that it's just like it gives you incredible amounts of power. My job is to explain the science and explain how people can interact with the science. It's a pure coherence play is what it comes down to. And if it's all about conspiracy theories, then I'm going to get online and, you know, share them with my friends. >> So that that's why coherence really matters. So that you can have agency over your life. >> And why are directionless people so psychologically fragile? >> They're fragile because they don't know actually in which direction that they're going, which means they can't make progress. Now remember, this whole idea of happiness comes from making progress toward a goal. And there's tons of really interesting examples of this. The weight loss literature is super interesting in this. So, diets are all effective and they're all catastrophic failures is what it comes down to. Effective in so far as that almost any diet will make you lose weight, but they have between an 80 and 95% failure rate after a year, meaning you gain all the weight back and then some. >> It's a weird industry. It's like a $40 billion industry in the United States that fails. >> Bora Boros of nutritional advice. >> It's craziness. you know nine out of 10 times they fail. Um now now why why are they successful? Because in in economically it's because temporarily they make you make progress but they ultimately fail because once you get to your goal your goal weight the reward is never getting to eat what you like ever again for the rest of your life. Congratulations >> that and then you get the arrival fallacy is what it comes down to. So what you want in life is something where you can just make constant progress. I want to be like I want to be a better dad. I want to be a better person. I want to create more value with my work. And that's there's no end to that. I can't be like, "Yeah, well, I got to the best dad I can possibly be, so that's all good." >> No, I'm I'm I can always work to be a better husband. I can always work to be a better friend. I can always work to be a better citizen. I can always work to love my country more. I can always work to actually do something more important in my work and reach more people with the with the the the moral objectives that I have. And that's what I need. I need goals I can't meet. >> [snorts] >> I don't I think that the confusing thing is it if significance is about being valuable to others and not famous why is it the case that modern people confuse the two >> part of the reason is because um what strivvers they get into there's actually a pathology that that that is in the middle of this um so what you find is that certain people let me back up a little bit um I work I'm sort of a strive whisper In my work, I specialize in people who do incredible things, right? And not just because that's fun, although it is, but because that's the kind of books that I write. You know, people who do amazing things and still don't have perfect lives. That's kind of my area of research. As a matter of fact, they have a common childhood. And it kind of looks like this. You know, super strivvers who are never satisfied and struggle. They generally speaking um found that they only got attention and affection from their parents when they did something, when they got good grades, when they made pitcher on the baseball team, when they made first chair in the orchestra, when they right when they, you know, set up a lemonade stand and made more money than anybody thought possible, whatever it was, right? And and their parents often their parents are immigrants or or came from poverty. and they'll reward their kids when they do a thing thinking that they're actually wiring in success and happiness for their kids. What they're telling their kids is that love is earned. They're teaching their kids that love is earned. And they kids will learn that. And when your brain is synaptically plastic, boy, will you ever learn that lesson. And then you will go through life trying to earn love over and over and over and over again. You'll look for if you're a man, you'll look for women who make you earn their love, right? and and that you'll spend your marriage trying to bring in more and more and more and more money. For example, women will try to stay young forever by trying to earn their husband's love. You'll find that they will surround themselves with sycopants and yesmen who are just like fake friends who make it make these people earn their love um with gifts and favors and fanciness and and you'll surround yourself with people because you believe that love is actually earned. Well, the truth is that's wrong. Real love isn't earned. It's a free gift, freely given. It's a grace. Anybody who makes you earn their love doesn't love you. That's what it comes down to. But they don't learn that because that's actually what they've what they've what they've they've um uh evolved over the course of their lives. And they they become success addicts, winning addicts, looking for the specialness. And and in the modern economy when you can metastasize that from one to your family to your community to your church to your city to the whole world on the internet then you're going to be searching for the adoration of strangers because it's the best possible dopamine hit that you can get and life is going to feel gray if you don't get it. So this is a pathology that actually people have and the more talented you are the more danger you're in. One of my favorite ideas of yours is this difference between specialness and happiness. Like it's so good when you see it. It's something you kind of can't see anymore. >> Yeah. And and it's it's a lot of people who are, you know, there people watch and listen to Modern Wisdom because they want an edge. You know, it's good. It's good entertainment. I'm I'm I'm a fan. Long before I met you. Yeah. But it's it's actionable material for people. >> Well, I'm I'm I'm actively making less actionable material. >> Yeah. I know. which is an interesting pivot at the moment. I think there's a a new term floating around which you might not have seen yet. It's called grind slop. And uh grind slop is kind of this [ __ ] your feelings, just work harder achievement and progress and optimization at any cost. >> Yeah. >> And I think that people are feeling a lot of fatigue. I've felt that for a while. And you know, if I go back and look at what I was talking about 2 years ago, 18 months ago, a lot of that was I'm going to try and feel my feelings a little bit more. I'm going to try and see if there's something a little bit deeper. I'm going to have a little bit more fun. I'm not going to optimize for outcomes at the expense of experience. And that has really come to a head. Uh I think for a lot of people, I think it's worsened by AI. I think that if you can have a oracle in your pocket, which you always had, but now an oracle that speaks to you personally and knows exactly everything that you need and kind of gives you this very curated, idiosyncratic, customized version of what it is that you want in a chat format is almost as if you're speaking to your best friend that happens to be God. [sighs and gasps] >> People have got information overload and what I don't think that they necessarily need more of is just getting like how fuagra is made, right? just force feeding that high velocity like high density stuff. >> Um, and I think that at least for me, what I'm finding myself enjoying lots of is I took something away from that. >> Yeah. >> And I had a good time >> as opposed to optimizing for you know, you think about short form or Blinkist or Spark Notes or you know what, whatever your favorite book summary service of choice was like what is it that you're doing? You're like trying to get to the outcome. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, you're you're to get points on the board. You're trying to get points on the board. Yeah. >> No. And and >> I can't remember. We that that was a digression from something from the original that that we >> me saying if significance is about being valuable to others and not about being famous. How can people confuse those two? >> Oh yeah. And so specialness and happiness. Correct. Yeah. So specialness and happiness is really really interesting because the idea of I mean I will literally hear people say look any loser can have a family. You know any loser can have an ordinary job and provide for his wife and kids >> but not everybody can start a company. Not everybody can be CEO. Not everybody can have a famous podcast. Not everybody can do those things. And and in other words, they're saying, I know what would make me happy, and I'm going to forgo that happiness for what I think is a as a happiness beyond it, which is specialness. And that will always lead to ruin. It always does. I mean, again, I talk to people my age. I've talked about people who are older than me. I mean, it's like this classic thing. It's a friend who is um 25 years older than I am. um an icon in finance, an absolute icon of finance. And I said when I said, "How old were you when you figured out you were going to be rich?" He said, "32." He knew when it was. I was 32 years old. He said, "It was like I you know, I actually left this bank and I actually went and opened my own firm and and it was starting to make money and and we weren't rich yet, but I I realized I was going to be rich." And I said, "You must have thought, what's it going to be like to be rich? What's it going to be like to be rich? What's going to happen?" He said, "Yeah, he's not a very materialistic guy. He doesn't have a boat. He doesn't have 15 houses. He doesn't have any of this stuff. He's really, really wealthy man. >> Scott Galloway. [laughter] >> My doppelganger. You know, I should go I should I said I I said to Scott the other day cuz I we were doing a thing together and I said, you know, we should go on tour together with Stanley Tucci. >> I said no. [laughter] Like >> and put you should be under a big red cup. >> It's like you three card Monty or something like that. It's like which one do you get? Which one? >> Three card Baldi. [laughter] Right. And so I and he said and he I said, "So what did you think when you're when you got rich how life was going to be better? How did you really think life was going to be better?" Because this is interesting for me as a behavioral scientist. I mean, this is this is deep. And he he thought about it for a while. He said, "I thought that when I got rich that my wife would love me. Really love me." And I said, "So what happened?" And he said, "She didn't." [sighs] They just stared at me. And it was this moment of pathos, right? It was this moment. It's like this what's pathos? This moment of deep understanding and feeling, right? That and it's almost as if when he he had never said it before. When he articulated it, he understood it for the very first time. >> Do you think he'd selected a wife that was the sort of person whose love needed to be won? >> Of course. Of course. Because you know, if you believe that love is earned, then you're going to surround yourself with people who make you earn their love. Yeah. >> Every single time. >> You've got you've got cause and effect going on here. >> Of course. I've got >> this line from an essay I wrote recently. What you are praised for in public, you will pay for in private. >> Nice. Give me an example. >> Uh your psychological resilience. You know, in the boardroom, people call it strength, they call it decisiveness, assertiveness. Uh they call it uh uh anti-fragility. Yeah, >> but around your kitchen table it makes you put up with a relationship that you should have left long ago. >> It makes you impenetrable to the actual psychological and emotional needs that your spouse needs. >> I had a a Navy Seal sat here, Andy Stump, and he said, you know, I built myself up like my entire career was made out of being a person who doesn't quit, >> right? >> That caused me to stay in a marriage that was toxic for 10 years longer than I should have done. >> Your strengths are your weaknesses, but your weaknesses are your strengths. What's that mean? >> You tell me. I'm [ __ ] [laughter] You've Uno reverse carded me on a a limmerick that I don't understand. >> But I mean, think >> the Riddler sat opposite me here. >> Yeah, [laughter] I'm a Batman villain. >> Correct. >> The the bald man, the baldy, the um the um >> What is your greatest weakness? >> Uncertainty. >> Uh-huh. How have you turned that into one of your greatest strengths in what you do? >> Paying attention to every different permutation of how things could go to ensure that the plan is in place. Hypervigilance, >> uh, galactically unreasonable attention to detail. >> Exactly. Right. What's your next biggest weakness? >> In the similar sort of circuit is that overthinking. >> Uh-huh. You fear failure, right? >> Fear. >> You fear shame. Fear shame more than failure. >> How does your fear of shame and like I'm not I'm not divulging anything to to our friends. >> No one's no one's [ __ ] surprised. >> No one's surprised here. It's nothing that I haven't said on stage in front of thousands of people with tears in my eyes. >> It's like [laughter] the shamefaced boy part of the program. >> Yeah, exactly. Um >> so so how does sh how does it feel shame? Which by the way is very common for for >> success working hard enough so that you don't have to feel it. you know, overachieving, outstripping what anybody thought to this the point where nobody could ever think that it would be something shameful, right? >> But it does cause you again what you what you are praised for in public, you pay for in private. It means that you have >> um >> opening up about how you feel, especially about weaknesses and vulnerabilities. >> That's hard to do because you go, well, I'm supposed to have it all together. the reason that the world gave me the love that it gave me is because of look at my competence and here it is on display and I'm and then you go I need to I there's a there's a hole in this armor and I need to show it to somebody. >> Uh and I and the map that I have of reality from the real world gets ported across into the relational world. >> Yeah. And that's very very difficult to that's a a tough thing to watch. It feels like being Batman and Robin for a lot of people. Sorry. It feels like being Batman and Bruce Wayne for a lot of people. You know, it feels like you have one life out there, >> right? And then when you come home, you can either choose to keep the mask on, >> but taking it off means that you have to start living this double life where you need to not feel the things that you do privately when you're in public and not use the tactics that you have publicly when you're in private. >> Right? >> So, >> right, and that actually is can be really disconcerting and it can be highly damaging for personal relationships. >> And this is one of the reasons that you find that when people start to get really famous that they're much more at ease in front of a thousand people than they are in front of one person. M >> because they actually have to use a different set of social skills. They've got the theater ability in front of a thousand people. But when they're actually talking to mom or, you know, an actual no fool and girlfriend, life, it gets real dicey real fast, right? Is what it comes down to. But but what you put your finger on is that look, you will pay in private for what you're applauded for in public, >> but you will also, you know, what you're paying for in private is the source of your strength in public. And that what that means is that you shouldn't just try to you shouldn't just be thankful for what they're applauding you for in public on the contrary. You should be down on your knees thankful for the weaknesses that you have as well. >> And that's that's the that's the pro move. That's what it comes down to. That's actually how we ultimately learn to manage ourselves is that we recognize that we have these frailties, that we have these weaknesses, that we have these, you know, feet of clay >> and and we say, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that weakness." because and indeed that is a source of my strength. >> Yeah. Most of the things that you're most ashamed of are just the dark side of something light that you're really proud of. >> And you know, if you've got a sword, most swords are double-edged. And sometimes it nicks you on the back swing. That doesn't mean that you throw the sword away. >> Yeah. >> Just means that you learn how to hold it properly. >> Yeah. And [clears throat] then the the ace move is being grateful for the wound for the wound itself. It's really interesting because actually what you find in a lot of Eastern philosophy is that you know we have a tendency to be very stoic about the way we talk about problems and suffering and weakness in our life to say I will bear up under it. >> I will I do accept it. I do accept it. But it's not enough to accept it. You need to love it. That's really that that that ultimately is the is what makes you fully human is to actually love it and to accept it as the divine will. this is the way it's going to be and because it's happening that's what I want I my will I want what I want is what is happening sort of aimatically I realize it's sort of philosophical in its way but ultimately I think this is what we need to get where we need to get in our lives is is recognizing that there are both strengths and weaknesses that we actually have and we should be as grateful for our weaknesses as we are for our strengths you might not believe me but this is what peak sleep optimization looks like not talking about the night gown that's just for sex appeal. I'm talking about my EightLe. The Eight Sleep Pod 5 comes with a smart cover you throw on your mattress that actively cools or heats each side of the bed up to 20°. 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I had this idea the parental attribution error like the fundamental attribution error that >> we are often prepared to especially in the modern world right um blaming our parents for stuff is basically a right of passage in modern psychology modern therapy culture. Uh but if we're not prepared to lay our strengths at the feet of our parents then maybe we shouldn't be so quick to call them the villains for what's wrong with us. So, you know, you say that your desire to work hard is because you were never freely given love at home, but >> isn't that also the same thing that's made you so driven and ambitious? >> You say that your hyper vigilance was brought out because people didn't observe your needs ahead of their own. >> Isn't that also the same reason that you're so concerned to ensure that everybody else's welfare is put before yours? All of these things are they're not even two sides of the same coin. It's just a single [ __ ] piece of metal. This thing exists. It's woven throughout it all. >> Right. Right. >> And uh >> well, you're what you're doing is right now you're being very subversive because what you're doing is subverting the culture of grievance. >> Mhm. >> And which actually you're pretty good at that at this point. I've noticed that. But >> people got really angry when I when I talked about that. Maybe didn't like it. >> Well, the whole point is that you know the unhappiest people are people who are whose identity it revolves around grievance and victimization. And that this is by the way one of the ways that people in positions of relative cultural authority and power keep you subjugated. The way that I a baby boomer like me technically in the last year of the baby boom can conscript culture warriors who are Gen Z into my movement is by convincing they're victims and they should be agrieved >> about how the world treats them, about how older people treat them, about how the culture treats them. >> It was easier before you, so there's no point in trying now. >> Yeah. Well, or you should be really mad about it. You should be angry about it. you should be, you know, carrying a a sign in the streets. >> Apply your efforts to complaining about the problem as opposed to >> go Starbucks. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it seems like a lot of what you're laying at the feet here, the issue is largely technology that that is one of the biggest movers. Is that a fair? >> That's the tip of the spear. It's actually what it is. It's a the technology is a manifestation of the way that the culture of engineering has given us this scientism this conceit that every problem is a complicated problem that can be solved as opposed to the most important problems which can't be solved. They can only be lived with and understood. That a more human approach to what we're talking about is that there are plenty of complicated problems that we can solve but the most important ones are the ones we can't solve. And that's what uh properly it's interesting because that's what most of the you know Buddhist teachers will say that the the wrong turn of the west was that was the scientism that said that everything is a solvable complicated problem whereas you what we need is balance between complex and complicated the complex problems of the right hemisphere and the complicated problems of the left hemisphere and they exist in a system and there are many things that we shouldn't try to solve because we can't we should live with them >> we should understand them >> we should leave them as permanent mysteries that actually give our life flavor. But the truth is that especially over the past 25 years in the era of hyperdevelopment of technology that is an expression of the idea that no, we're going to hit the singularity, man. We're going to live forever. We're going to be actually be able to figure out how to upload our brains. we're going to be able to solve any problem with whatever app or douad or or or supplement or whatever it happens to be that we will have the scientific acumen to solve everything that actually u is a problem in our lives. And that's just axiomatically wrong. And how do I know that? Because we're solving more and more of these problems and we're getting less and less and less happy. It's the same kind of thing to say, for example, if we had enough therapists, we wouldn't have any more depression. Well, depression has tripled and the number of therapists has tripled. So, what's going on here? Obviously, there's a cause and effect problem and a a glitch in our logic. I wonder if this is part of the reason why people are feeling exhausted. They've got personal development fatigue. >> Yeah. >> That permanently asking the why question, permanently trying to optimize everything becomes exhausting. uh the kind of cost that you pay of trying to optimize everything is worse than being underoptimized. >> Yeah. >> That the process of trying to be perfect will kill you more quickly than the imperfections would. >> And yeah, all of this together is like, dude, I got enough on my plate. >> I got enough on my plate. Do I need more homework? Yeah. >> Do I really need more homework right now? >> As opposed to like [sighs] >> ah I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm I'm trying and I'm trying hard. And that's that's pretty good. >> Yeah. And you know, there's nothing wrong with these big why questions. The problem is having these big why questions and believing that if you watch enough internet videos and take enough supplements that you'll be able to answer these things. And and this is one of the this is a big generational difference that we actually find. So there every philosophical school um of note and of merit has something that the ancient Greeks called aporeia which is to sit in a state of puzzlement over questions that can't be answered. So, Zen Buddhism is based on coins. Cohens are riddles. You know, what is the sound of one hand clapping? And a strange unanswerable question. You're supposed to ponder that. And in the pondering, you gain a certain kind of complex knowledge, which we know is, you know, the the dominantly processed in the right hemisphere of the brain. Right? A big generational difference is that what's very what's missing for a lot of people's lives today is that at night with their friends, they're not having these BS philosophical conversations about big questions that can't be answered. >> That was what you did right at 11:30 after you came home from a party with your friends in college in 1985. Is it like I don't know, dude? Do you think God exists? Right? It's like [gasps] wow, dude. and and and now it's like so we've stopped doing that one thing. There's nothing wrong with big why questions. The problem is that we only ask either ask questions that can be addressed by Google or Chad GBT or we believe that if we have enough scientific knowledge that these questions can be answered. Both of those are a big big wrong turn. They're a big wrong turn philosophically but they're also a wrong turn neurobiologically. >> Weird, isn't it? Because the promise of modern technology, culture, science, being able to answer a lot of questions and fix a lot of the problems that previously were huge. Infant mortality and [ __ ] cuts on your you know how Ignise died. >> No, >> bro. This is [ __ ] money. Tell me. >> So guy that discovered the germ theory of disease, he's finds that child bed fever is being transmitted from corpses to uh newborn babies because the doctors weren't washing their hands in between. begs his colleagues to adopt handwashing. He gets laughed out of every single institution he's trying to do it to. Uh he keeps on talking about it for so long that he drives himself insane. Everybody thinks that he's insane. And his wife helps to commit him to an asylum. While he's being removed from his own home by the nurses that are taking him away to the asylum, he gets a cut on his leg. The cut on his leg is treated by a doctor who doesn't wash his hands after touching a corpse and he dies due to the infection. >> [laughter] >> like the most >> like tragically ironic way to die. >> Uh >> but yeah, we we've got all of these promises made by by by the modern world. And the problem is no one. It's the first time that we've had the oracle, >> right? It's the first time that humanity's gone through the wow, maybe we could answer everything, maybe all of the problems as opposed to some of the problems. >> Yeah. Yeah. And um >> and the whole idea is that if we we we dig a little deeper, we'll find it. We dig a little deeper, we'll find it. >> But you're saying that there's a particular category of challenge which is simply unsolvable. >> You're dig like when you're in a final stop or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Now, this is important because this is, you know, a classic mistake that people make. There's a conceit that people have. I talked to a guy one time who was a big part of the war on poverty in America, which was this idea that we're going to be able to wipe out poverty with social programs, with social welfare services. And it did a lot. I mean, social welfare programs did a lot to lower caloric needs and and make sure there's more public access to education and all kinds of good stuff. But the truth of the matter is that after a certain point, it starts to wire in pathologies. Actually, it makes it harder for people to actually become independent, etc. >> Because they become reliant on the money. >> That's the idea. Yeah, that's that's the whole idea of of this and it's certainly not true for everybody but is certainly true for other people and and I and I asked him who is one of the architects in this war on poverty what would have made it that would truly have won you really wiped out poverty once and for all and he said just a little more money >> but that's what a lot of people in the valley think today is that we're going to get an out for that that these are world we just need to go deeper we need to go deeper >> I mean you saw the the test uh experiments with UBI from a couple of years ago. >> They failed. >> Both of them failed. They failed. >> Failed massively. Yeah. Yeah. >> Why? Now tell me don't say let's say why. What did they do? You remember? >> Not fully. I mean I know that people they looked at the discretionary spend. They looked at where people were putting money away. They looked at how much of it was being spent on things that people said they needed to prioritize. Stuff like healthare wasn't going on healthcare. What the quality of the food wasn't increasing. >> It wasn't going to education. Yes. The whole point is that it if it went toward human capital development, if it went toward what my parents would have put it into, right? Um it would have been great. It would have been this fabulous thing. And the whole thing is is based on this idea that everybody has the same values, that everybody has the same priorities, which they don't. And it wasn't a question of money. Furthermore, when you actually give people for nothing, you strip away their sense of earned success. And earned success is part of this idea of satisfaction. It gets into this idea of progress. It gets into the wiring of homo sapiens >> is what it comes down to. It it denies the primacy >> and respect due to human evolutionary biology, which I know is something you love, right? Me too. Right? Because it explains so much of the odd behavior that people have. And so every time that we try to reorder the way that human beings are wired evolutionarily with some utopian idea that we've got this technology, we've got this economic policy, we've got I got I got I've got this new idea for how the how the genders are going to behave toward each other. Yeah. No, from now on we're no longer going to be like people were 50,000 years ago. It's gonna fail. >> It's gonna fail. And we you you need to you need to go with the the current. You need to actually swim with the current or you're ultimately going to fail is what it turns out. >> Getting back to the technology thing, how do you interrupt this doom loop that everyone's on? >> So the doom loop is that I'm, you know, I don't want to be bored. Um because I don't like boredom because it's boring, right? And so I distract myself. And when I distract myself, what I do is I become less tolerant of boredom. Um my life feels less meaningful because I'm actually illuminating the parts of the brain that are necessary for that. And so I'm more at loose ends. And so I spend more time online, more time scrolling, more time, you know, doing what people do when they're when they're really bored. And that makes the problem worse. Much the same way with drugs and alcohol, you know, and that's how escalation and dependence actually works. Um, the two biggest predictors of alcoholism are anxiety and boredom. And so when I'm anxious and bored, I drink. >> Well, that makes boredom and anxiety worse the next day. And so I drink some more. And then down and down and down and down it goes. And so what you have to you're in a doom loop. Any addictive process is a doom loop. The same thing is true with the way that we use technology. The same way is true you know anything any >> which is totally hidden under the radar by the way. Completely you know and you most people despite the fact that alcohol is having a resurgence only after it was recently sort of stripped away. Uh um >> most people understand I I I I'm I'm doing this and I didn't used to do this and when I do this I keep it seems to be ratcheting up. I'm drinking more than I used to. I'm I'm That's probably not good. >> Well, it depends on how much you drink. It might be good. >> Well, I mean, if you're getting to five, six, seven drinks a night, I don't think >> that's a big problem. >> Yeah, but but how many times does that entropy start to build because your tolerance you're chasing you're not chasing having the drink, you're chasing the sensation of the drink and your tolerance I >> Yeah, exactly. >> I'll drink that's a doom loop. >> I'll drink >> 10 20 times a year maybe at most now. And that means half a Corona in I'm like that's nice. It's like being 14 again, you know, that's cool. Uh, but >> a half rack at 14. I don't know what's wrong. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Uh, >> the problem with using your phone in this way is it's a completely socially acceptable, under the radar. Nobody is ever going to say, no one's ever going to come over. How many time like someone will make a joke about, "Dude, you're on your phone a lot tonight." It's very different to, "Dude, you're pissed again." And it's five nights in a row. >> Like that's different, right? It's much more obvious. the gambling thing, the porn thing, these kinds of compulsions, these kinds of habits are significantly more obviously destructive, >> right, >> than using your phone is. And then while I'm doing it, I can feel myself internally [ __ ] rolling my own eyes. Yes. Okay, too much time on the phone is too much. Like, you know what I mean? >> I know. And there are other, by the way, there's a whole spectrum of these things of these dependencies that are all involving the the, you know, the dopamine cycle in your brain. Some of which are not just sort of neutral and hidden like the phone. Some of which are are are applauded. You know, if you're a workaholic, >> nobody will say, I mean, if like if you're a pathetic alcoholic, nobody will say it's like, Chris, you were a you drank, >> you know, you drank 750 milliliters of gin last night. I saw you put that. Congratulations. You're excellent. Correct. >> They're going to say you you got some problems. I mean, I think you got to get that looked at, right? But if you work 16 hours a day and neglect your family, you're going to get a promotion and a raise. You're going to get rewarded for that. So there's some addictions that that that you know people actually love because it works in their favor. It enriches them and it actually leads to the world's rewards which people admire. >> Yep. >> So the point is that we have a responsibility to look after ourselves, look after the pathologies that are actually in inherent in our behavior and to see is it actually making my life better or is it making my life worse notwithstanding the reaction of the rest of the world. >> What does fixing the doom loop look like? >> What does fixing? It means clipping. It means cutting it at a particular place. So um all addictions getting out of addictions they have sort of three steps in common. It's it's really behaviorally they have three steps in common. Now I'm not talking medically. I'm not talking about the medical interventions because that's different for different things with gambling and drinking and methamphetamine whatever. But the three behavioral steps in getting out of an addiction are number one, you got to get pissed. You got to get pissed. It's like this is subjugating me. This is I'm in a cage and I'm tired of it. I'm tired of actually being a wholly owned subsidiary of that company or this behavior or this culture. I'm tired of it. I'm not going to put up with it. You need to fight back by rebelling. That's number one. You need the spirit of rebellion. If you're not ready to rebel, you're not going to get out. Number two is you need to figure out how to stop. You need to actually have an algorithm. And that's dependent on what the substance or behavior actually is. There are different ways to do it, but there's tons of science in every area. If you can get addicted to it, there's science that tells you how to stop. And then the third is you have to learn how to live with yourself again because you've been distracting yourself from yourself. If you're addicted to something, it means you didn't like being home in your head. That's what it comes down to. >> And you know, it's like I I haven't had a drink since I was 38 years old, right? And I remember in my 30s, I didn't like being home in my head. Didn't like it. Didn't want to be there, right? And so I left, right? I got a little relief. a little vacation in the bottle and it it just it was going nowhere good and it was really clear and then my dad died and and and you know a couple of people I cared about said this your that's your future. You just saw your future, right? And so I stopped. But it was the hard part was step three. The hard part was actually being alone with myself, being awake with myself, being alive with myself is what it comes down to. And that's probably even more extreme for people who are very very online because you're trying to break the doom loop of a technology is breaking your brain, not letting you find the meaning of your life, making you angry and depressed and anxious and lonely. >> You're addicted, which is why you keep doing these self- terrible self-destructive things to yourself. You first you get pissed and second you got to quit. And look, I got the algorithms to help you do that. But then, man, you need new friends. Like, you know, you need you need to live in a society. You need to live, you know, in people who are alive in real life. And you have to be able to sit behind the wheel of your car at a red light with nothing to do in your thoughts, right? and be in a supermarket checkout line without your phone and and walk before dawn without a device and hear the crunch of the gravel under your feet and say that's the sound of my feet on the path and that takes work. >> How easy is it to recover from this? I think a lot of people feel like they're lost and totally unreoverable. >> It's absolutely possible. I've seen it again and again and again and again. I mean, look, this is this this is not heroin that we're talking about here. I mean, the the the process of detox, for example, isn't you don't even have to give up your phone. You just have to put it in proper boundaries and have some rules in your life, right? And and actually have some proper habits. And, you know, we're our life is if you have a fairly functional life, you've got good habits already, right? I mean, you get up at a certain time, you work out every day, you you eat something you don't eat like an 11-year-old. I mean, you have good habits and then you just put protocols around it. You know, it's like Huberman talks about protocols and which has kind of infected the culture. It's a culture of protocols. Um, and and I'm I'm an absolute believer in that when it comes to your phone. I mean, you you wake up in the morning, if you can, don't look at it at all for the first hour for neurocognitive programming. If you're a journalist or, you know, you have your job, you got to look at it, make sure nothing's on fire. That's it. Put it down. That's it for the hour, right? First hour of the day. While you eat, neurocognitive programming while you eat is critically important. is best not to eat alone and never eat with your device. >> Why? >> Brain is is actually your the the neuropeptides in your brain, most notably oxytocin, they flow very liberally when you're eating with somebody. This is how, you know, homo sapiens would establish and and foster kin bonds, is by sitting around a campfire, putting pieces of yak meat into their mouths, discussing their day, and looking into each other's eyes. That's how we're wired. If you have a phone on the table while you eat, or god forbid, if you're looking at it, there's no None of this neurochemistry happens. >> What if you're on your own? >> Then um you might read a book, you might listen to music, but don't look at your phone. >> There's a meme online of uh guy starves to death even though he had food because he couldn't watch YouTube. Yeah. >> Cuz his phone had run out of battery. >> Or it's like or died of sepsis because he didn't go to the bathroom. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> He couldn't take his phone in there. So, and last but not least is the last hour of the day. Now, that part of that is sleep architecture and blue light, etc., etc., the pineal gland, melatonin, yada yada. We all know the physiology of that. But part of that is just the way that you actually understand yourself at the end of your day and get ready to rest. If you're living with your partner, that's critically important to your relationship is not to be looking at your device in the last hour so you can be fully present as you drift off to sleep together. That's super super important for your relationship. But just those three things. Then there's phone free zones. You shouldn't have your phone in the bedroom ever, ever, ever, ever because I mean, God forbid you get up to pee at 3:00 in the morning and look at your phone. That's a big mistake. >> Get over. >> Well, I mean, it's it's your pineal gland shuts off, right? No more melatonin for you and and so which is problematic on its face, but it's also you just you you spike your cortisol. I mean, it's bad stuff happens to you. So the phone should be in a different floor in a closet plugged in someplace from the hour before you go to bed until after an hour after you get up. That's number one. It's a phone free zone. Second is that that I mean this is just you know basic public policy. There shouldn't be a a phone in any classroom in any school in the world between kindergarten and PhD. It is complete insanity because it interrupts everything that we're actually trying to do. And it's it's child abuse. that there's phones in classrooms, you know, and and the most important hour they shouldn't have phones is during lunch, by the way, >> because they need to. >> So, it's even worse. You should be in a classroom, and it definitely you shouldn't be in the cafeteria. >> I mean, most of what's going on in the classroom is not that interesting to begin with. I mean, I don't think I ever learned anything in public school. I think it was mostly babysitting, but >> but you know, at least I had friends and and and they don't have friends. >> And then and then people need phone fasts. They need technology fasts. I recommend 96 hours a year is kind of this is and there's a little bit of research on this that shows that this actually can break the relationship that you have. So you prove to yourself that you actually don't need it and you're kind of in a state of bliss by the fourth day. >> You know, it's really really I mean I go on a spiritual retreat every year for 4 days. No phone. Oh, it's great. First day it's like children screaming in my head. >> Yeah. >> Second day I'm calming down. Fourth third day I like it. The fourth day I wish it were the whole year. >> That's what it comes down to. But just those things, phone free times, phone free zones, phone fasts can re can can can can do this part two. This does not give you part one, which is rebellion, or part three, which is you got to get comfortable back with yourself. >> Mhm. >> Different processes. >> How important is romantic love to meaning? >> That's one of the best ways you can turn on the right hemisphere of your brain because that's something you will never solve. How do I know that? Because if we could have solved algorithmically romantic love, we wouldn't still have app developers that were trying to make the ultimate dating app. The dating apps are fundamentally a leftbrain solution to a rightbrain problem. Right now, they're getting better, but the way that they're getting better is by figuring out ways to add more human friction into the algorithm as opposed to taking human friction out of the algorithm. So, for example, you're finding early experiments would suggest that a good way for you to find your matches on an app is to have your matches, some of your app matches go to your best friend and have your friend decide which ones you're going to go out with [laughter] >> because you're adding a right brain into the mix. You're adding your friend's right brain to the mix, for example. Or having a whole bunch of potential people in a group that I will actually meet in a mixer, you know, that's a good way to do it, too. >> Yeah. Uh-huh. uh and then pair up if it's meant to be or make friends if it's not. And so that that's those are ways that we actually do that. But the point the point of the matter is that the human brain um is is highly attuned to this incredibly complex indescribable experience of falling in love. That's one of the reasons that all country and western songs are about romantic love. That's the reason that the greatest poetry is about romantic love because it's not described scientifically. It's described artistically >> because it's a right hemispheric experience. So you want to you want to turn on the meaning in your life. >> Go get your heart broken. >> I mean go take a risk. I mean that's that's when you find the meaning of your life, right? I mean when you've had your heart broken, that's horrible and that's hard, but that's meaning rich. That's when you ask all those big questions. >> You're definitely alive. >> You'll learn a lot about yourself. You learn a lot about yourself, right? Unless you stay drunk. >> What's the ladder of love? So, Deoteim of Montinea was this prophetus that Socrates sought out. So, Socrates sought out the the Deote of Montinea um and and and she described to him that the way to find the meaning of life starts with this ladder and each rung of the ladder gets you closer to the meaning of life. And the first rung of the ladder is falling in love. The first rung of the ladder is actually attraction toward the beautiful other. Romantic attraction, not just like, you know, Chris is awesome. He's so smart. He's got such a great show. It's such a great conversation. Such a good friend. >> Thank you. >> But it's it's like that spark that you can't quite understand. No, actually, we do understand neurochemically what's happening when you're falling in love. We know how the sex hormones start and then we get the the catacolamines actually involved along the way and then we get a really dramatic drop in serotonin and then we get the neuropeptides and in and the sequence. We know when the sequence is off between two people is why they don't is why they don't actually succeed in a relationship. There's all kinds of really fascinating neuroscience of falling in love, but it's still a mystery. I tell you that that the neuroscientists who are doing this cutting edge research, they can fall hard in love just like anybody else. They can like, I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened. Yes, you do. You wrote that paper, right? But still, I mean, it's like I I I I teach this stuff to my students at the Harvard Business School about the the neuroscience of falling in love, but I don't understand this relationship with my wife. I just love her, you know? I just It's like, okay, yeah, a lot of oxytocin and vasopressin and, you know, and there's some amount of dopamine and and and norepinephrine involved and and there drops in serotonin when you're fighting and [laughter] that's not it. It's because it's this deep metaphysical experience. Most religions believe as Montine of of of Deotima, Socrates's prophetus suggested that romantic love is the beginning of an antenna to the divine. That and and most religions believe that if you're in a serious marriage and you deny your spouse love, you're denying your spouse God's love. >> That's how rightrained and complex this actually is. Well, just because you can explain how gravity works doesn't mean that you're not going to hit the ground if you jump out of a a skyscraper. >> You can understand it plenty well. >> Yeah. >> Still at the mercy of these things. There's that uh interview that Sam did with Daniel Carnean Mr. Thinking Fast and Slow, Nobel Prize winner. After many, many decades of studying the fallacies of the human mind and mental models and all of the different ways that our rationality goes ary, has it made you any more rational? >> Not really. >> Not really. I know. I know. No, it's interesting, too, you know, and and Sam and I have had one conversation um more or less along these lines. He's the most soulful atheist I've ever met. >> Yeah, >> he really is. He's a soulful guy. I really have. >> He'd be a great believer apart from the lack of belief. But that's the point because his soulfulness would seem might seem on the outside to to contradict his his uber rationality as an atheist. But it doesn't because these things coexist. These things can reside next to each other and because Sam's brain has two hemispheres to it. So does mine. So does all of ours. Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance. Which is why for the last 5 years I've started pretty much every morning with Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar. And I really tell the difference when I take it versus when I don't. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue. Helps to optimize brain health and regulate your appetite while also curbing cravings. 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It's so boring. But mother nature wants you to be the star of that psycho drama all day long in your head. [snorts] That's what uh William James called the MI self. The MI self. It's looking at yourself and thinking about yourself all day long. And you need that for self-reference to make your way in the world. If you don't understand what you're doing, you're going to be a pretty bad driver. You're going to be in a traffic accident pretty quickly. But there's also the eye self, which is looking out at the world, which is transcending yourself by looking at out at the world in which you're one player, but you're only one player in it. And and it's interesting because transcendent experiences are those where the mei self disappears and the I self becomes dominant. There are times actually when when they they become confused and that's kind of what a fugue state is psychologically where the where you become disassociated with yourself in this weird way and you all of us have experienced this. I remember one time um I had a lot on my mind and I was putting gas in my car and I was just like really worried about something. this back when I was a CEO and my life was like a living like dystopian hell hole, right? And everything was a problem every single day and I was putting gas in my car and it was like 8:00 at night and and I and I finished and and I got back in my car and I was driving. My daughter was with me in the car and she was a little girl then and there was this like weird clanking sound behind me like somebody had a muffler down right behind me and like they were following me and I said, "Honey, what is that sound?" She said, "I don't know." Like clankity clankity clankity clank. They following me. what's going on until people started pointing to me at my car and I realized that I had driven away with the hose in my gas tank and I pulled it out of the gas pump and I was dragging it behind me the whole mechanism behind me. Clankity clankity clank, right? And so I thought somebody else was doing a thing that I had actually done. I'd confused the me self and the ice self. I was in this like weird fugue state. It got real real fast when I took it back to the gas station and these four Iranian dudes were standing around the gas pump really mad like who destroyed our pump. I also also found out how much it cost to fix a gas pump. It's expensive. But the whole point is that that that what we want is not to get into a fugue state. We want to have these experiences where we can be in the eye self where we can stand in awe where we can get outside ourselves which is religious experiences and that's spiritual experiences and philosophical experiences and and experiences of service and love toward other people unbidden by any self-interest. And that's where life gets really interesting and beautiful. And when you do that, when you truly are in a transcendent state, that's when you're in the right hemisphere of your brain. And you don't find meaning, meaning finds you. Which is why I'll often recommend to people, it's like, I don't know. How do I find the meaning of your life? Go volunteer. Go volunteer. Go pray. I'm not religious. I don't care. It's not what I said. Go pray. Why? Because when you do that, you will induce a state in your brain and you'll want to do it more. What is it that people are missing? Why is transcendence so rare without engineering it in that way? At least in the modern world. >> Yeah, it's it's especially true in the modern world that it's rare because the modern world is a big mirror. It's a big me self. That's especially true in online. Uh online you're looking in the mirror constantly because you're looking not in the at the the dialogue you're having with other people looking at them. What you're doing is that you're it's it's think about it as the Zoom problem. The problem with Zoom when you're in a Zoom meeting is you're always looking at yourself in the Zoom meeting. It's really hard. It's a really good idea to turn off your own camera um or at least your own view of your own camera so you can focus on the other people. But one of the ways that Zoom has has made communication a lot harder for people is because you're always in the me self even when you're trying to be in the eye self and and this is true certainly with social media as well. You're looking at your likes and your mentions and how did people interact with what I was doing and it's this one big virtual mirror of everything that we're doing. It's become very it's induced narcissism where it wouldn't have existed otherwise which is incredibly misery provoking because it it it kills meaning in the crib from the very beginning. You can't get out of yourself. You can't get out of your head. >> And that is increasingly true. Now it's interesting because people who have experimented with trying to stay in the eye self [snorts] um in in in literature but also just in real life have had these incredible results. I had this PT this guy worked on my back. my back hurts. And so you get to my age, your back hurts, right? And um and he always he worked on my back every week. Great guy, unbelievable. I mean, just like talented, full of love, you know. And uh and I said, "How did you get these skills?" I mean, is this did you were you always a physical therapist, acupuncture? He said, "No, no, no. I used to be a I used to be a fitness influencer." I'm like, "Dude, tell me more. I got to know. Tell me more." Said, "Yeah, you know, basically took off my shirt on Instagram. And I was kind of sold supplements and it was all about the abs. And and and I said, "How was that?" He said, "It was the worst. It was the worst. I didn't eat what I wanted for 10 years. I was so miserable. I didn't have any normal relationships at all. I couldn't have any functional relationships with women because I'd be so jealous about the fact that I'm showing my body off for other people. I'd be looking at my I'd be I I got to get a photographer because this guy doesn't understand the shadows." And he said it was horrible and it was miserable and I was sad and I didn't know what to do. So he said, "I finally I gave up. I deleted all my accounts. I uh I enrolled in acupuncture school, but here's the most important part." He said, "I got rid of all of the mirrors in my apartment, every single one of them, and I showered in the dark for a year, so I couldn't see my abs. And then I finally was free." And he's happy. Most people, I think, look to their work for something that's supposed to be transcendent. >> Yeah. >> Uh >> calling. >> Yeah. What do you think people What do you think people think they're talking about when they talk about finding your calling? >> Yeah. They think it's going to be the thing that they Well, I mean, there's kind of two versions of it. They're the the two graduation speeches. You know, graduation speech number one is go find a job that that you love and that's fun and you'll never work a day in your life. Now, that speech is being given by um a cardboard box magnet who's so severely workaholic that he's had three heart attacks and two divorces by the age of 40, right? So, don't believe it, right? Or the second speech is go save the world. No pressure. You know, it's like I well, my generation wrecked the world. Go save the world. You know, that's uh that's the second speech. That's both of those are wrong. Fundamentally, your calling, generally speaking, finds you as the thing that you can't stop thinking about. It's the most interesting thing, right? It's not the thing that you think, I'm going to be the savior. I'm going to be the great Messiah. And it's not the most fun thing necessarily. The thing that's most interesting to you is often not that fun. Actually, a lot of the time, it's actually not that fun. It's just something you can't get out of your head. It's something you feel you really need to do. Second, the goal is creating value with your life, is earning your success, is being rewarded for something that you do well, where you create real value with your hard work and and and and personal motivation. And more importantly, where you're serving somebody where somebody needs you. That's what it comes down to. Are you earning your success? Not only are you really earning, are you recognized and acknowledged for real value that you're creating? Not kissing up to the boss and not because somebody's trying to be nice to you. No, no, no, no. you're really creating value and does somebody actually need you? That's what it comes down to. That's your calling. >> How do you know or how does somebody know when they're chasing status instead of their calling, instead of meaning? >> Mostly people deep down know. Because what it comes down to is when you're creating true value and people need you, then you can it it I mean you can sort of imperfectly measure that with respect to status, but you actually know when there's true value behind it. Most people have an innate sense of that, a strong innate sense of that. And and I've interviewed a lot of people about this. You know, I talked to a guy um who builds homes, home builder, right? He had a uh he got his master's degree in um in biochemistry from MIT and was going on to get his PhD and his parents really really wanted him to be a scientist is the whole thing. But he recognized that he he his he only felt truly alive. He was only truly interested when he was building stuff is what it came down to and he became a home builder as a result of that. So it's really really important to listen to what your heart is telling you about this. Status is a very very bad barometer. A lot of people are using status or using fame or power or money because they don't want to look at the truth. They don't want it's like looking into the sun of something. And a lot of people make big mistakes for a long time as a result of that. Like they're doing something they don't that's not their calling and that burns them out. They don't like it but they should like it. is paying so much. They should like it. They got so many followers for Pete's sake, but they're unhappy. That's what people need to be paying attention to. Look, if you're doing something that's highly rewarding, but you're unhappy, it's not your calling. >> I wonder how many people said in that bucket, what proportion of >> I mean, a lot. I meet a lot. Look, I teach at a big business school. I meet a lot of people who honestly think that they go into business school thinking um I will I will find my calling because it's going to be something that's going to pay me so well, which means I'm so good at this thing that it's got to be my calling. No, no, no, no, >> no, no, no. On the contrary, look, I I I walked away from a career in classical music when I was 31 years old. Um I could have done it for the rest of my life, right? It wasn't my calling. I'd done it since I was eight. I'd been doing it since I was a little boy, right? But it wasn't my calling. And and I made a living and I made some records and I was so unhappy. It wasn't my calling. I'd spent many years on it. I spent decades on it, as a matter of fact, but there was no choice but to walk away because it wasn't my calling. >> What about the fear that comes up when someone is faced with that realization? They've got the inertia, the momentum, the sunk cost fallacy. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it's it's no joke. It actually requires an unbelievable amount of personal entrepreneurship. Look, entrepreneurship is not about building a business, about building your life, right? Great entrepreneurs, they change all the time. They make all kinds of changes. You know what crummy entrepreneurs have in common? They have a bad business idea and they chase it until they're broke. That's what bad entrepreneurs have in common, right? Good entrepreneurs, they try this and it's not quite right and they change and they go from this thing to that thing and they sell when it's time and start a new venture. That's what great entrepreneurs have in common. If you want to be an entrepreneur in the business of your life, you cannot afford the sunk cost fallacy with your own career or your own relationships or your own interests. >> Agile. >> You have to change is what it comes down to. Now >> there's a very interesting theory about people who need to change the most. The people and and these are called spirals. This is the spiral career pattern. There's there's four career patterns psychologically. There's linears who just kind of go up and up and up and up and up and up and up in their careers and they only change when something is better. There are transiitories who kind of just skip around all over the place. They don't live to work, they work to live, right? They, you know, I'm going to be a barista, then I'm going to run, you know, drive a moving van and I fell in love with a girl in San Diego. So, you don't there are what's called expert, which is like slow and steady. Yeah. It's lifestyle, right? I have my dad had the same job for 42 years, for example. And the reason is because it was secure and because uh it was low stress, right? And that's what he wanted. The post office is an expert career path. But a lot of people, probably disproportionately a lot of the people who are watching this show are spirals where every seven to 12 years, what they need is to take their career down to the studs and start again >> and take everything they learned in the last one and funge it into something that's meaningful in the next one, but to have a new adventure. The first turn is hardest. For me, leaving the French horn and becoming a scientist, that was brutal. going back and and getting a PhD when I didn't know what I was doing. It was really, really, really hard. Right. Second turn, easier. Third turn, easier. I'm on my fourth turn right now. Who knows? Maybe in >> 10 years I'll be a circus clown or firefighter or something. But the whole point is that that's what it means to live an entrepreneurial life where you're pursuing your calling because you have the agility and the courage to be an entrepreneur in the enterprise and the business of life. >> What about the role of beauty? >> Physical beauty. any kind of beauty. Beauty is a transcendent experience. So one of the things that a lot of people have observed about the modern technocratic life is it's not beautiful. It's bereft of beauty. Now why is that? Because stuff that goes on in the left hemisphere of the brain never prioritizes beauty. Beauty is a right hemispheric experience. You know it's it's when people see a beautiful sunset sometimes they'll cry. You know, when people hear a work of music, you know, people listen to Boach B minor mass and it's like they they weep. Why? And and they they can't exper as a matter of fact, anytime that you become emotional um and you can't quite explain it, it means you're having a right hemispheric experience, >> something that moves you weirdly, right? When some people when they talk about religion, they get really choked up. Some people when they listen to music, they get really choked up. It's really interesting how this works. But those are right hemispheric experiences and disproportionately that's when it comes to beauty. So if we have a society that's entirely left hemispheric that's technocratic that's complicated and not complex is not going to be beautiful. And that's exactly what we find. I mean there's compelling evidence that music is less objectively beautiful than it was in the past. Newer music is less objectively beautiful than it was in the past. I can't really judge that. But, you know, this is what uh this is what we pay, you know, musicologists to do or something. Um, that moral beauty is harder and harder to find. Moral beauty is just kindness toward others for no apparent reason. You find very little of that on X. You know, you find very little of that online, >> right? um that that natural beauty is harder to find when you're when you're never in nature, [gasps and sighs] which is sort of axiomatic, but a lot of people will say, you know, it's got this incredible screen saver of El Capitan and Yusede. It's like, there's the real thing. It's going to blow your mind, right? And the reason is because it is an entirely different neurobiological u experience for people when they're actually out in nature. If you're behind a screen, you're not getting beauty is what it comes down to. And so artistic beauty is absent. Moral beauty is absent. Natural beauty is absent. And the reason is because we're trying to filter everything through the left hemisphere. The simulation isn't beautiful. If you want to know if you're too much in the left hemisphere of your brain, it's whether you ask yourself, is there enough beauty in my life? And if the answer is no, it probably means that you're too far left. >> What about if there's not enough suffering? >> Yeah, that's the hard one. I left actually I wrote about that in this in this book and and uh I left that to the last chapter because I was putting it off. I was putting it off. Um suffering is the ultimate meaning making experience and we've talked about that. You we've talked about heartbreak, talked about loss, talked about grief. Um there's a little part of the lyic system called the dorsal anterior singulate cortex that that is really really active when you experience social exclusion, when you experience loss. It's it was evolved. So that you would be averse to sadness. Sadness is supposed to be really really painful and you don't want it. So people actually they don't suffer so much from sadness. They suffer a lot from fear of sadness. You know you're trying to avoid sadness which is what motivates a lot of our behaviors. Most of the things most of the reasons we do what we do is because we're afraid of bad. We're afraid of negative emotions. But at the same time, most people will talk about the most meaningful periods of their lives were at times of the greatest negative emotion in their lives. Negative emotion brings meaning unless unless we try to eliminate it. And this is another wrong turn that we've taken because once again in our our left hemispheric conceit of the complicated world, the singularity is one in which we will have eliminated pain, eliminated sadness, eliminated negative emotionality, eliminated negative experiences. That's not only impossible, it's actually suboptimal. It's death for what it means to be fully alive. We don't want to be, we don't want to suffer, but we must suffer. >> Strange the things that people want and what they need. >> Yeah, I know. >> And the fact that those two don't cross over all that much. >> And and mother nature is a wicked tyrant. She's kept us alive for generation after generation. But animal impulses are not the same thing as moral aspirations. Seems like you're saying that enjoyment and satisfaction haven't collapsed. No >> in the same way that meaning has. >> No. That's right. That's right. It's really interesting. I mean, I didn't know, you know, when I see a big happiness problem and I when I look at the the depression explosion, the anxiety explosion, I know that one of the channels of happiness is blocked. This is as a diagnostic matter. Happiness is a combination of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. We've talked about it on the show a couple of times. As a matter of fact, these are the three macronutrients of happiness. You want to be a happy person, you need to enjoy your life, which back to an early part of the conversation, by the way. One of the reasons that you're moving from a pure achievement orientation in the show toward one, having more fun is because you want to increase enjoyment, which many stvers struggle with. >> They don't enjoy their lives very much and they want to enjoy their lives more and they don't know how because they're always trying to put points on the board. So, that's a different subject. I'm gonna write a book about how to enjoy your life because I want to figure it out because I need to figure it out before I die. So enjoyment, which is not pleasure, it's pleasure plus people plus memory. It's a it's a conscious phenomenon, is actually pretty high for most young people. Satisfaction, which is the achievement of worthwhile goals with struggle, that's pretty high, especially for stvers. I mean, my MBA students at Harvard, they're real high in satisfaction because they're accomplishing a lot and they're struggling a lot. It's meaning that's collapsed. And that's the reason that we have this unbelievable happiness unhappiness crisis in our society today. Have >> I ever told you my idea about Frankle's inverse law? >> Oh, no. Tell me, Victor Frankle. >> Yeah. So, there's that famous quote, when a man can't find a deep sense of meaning, they distract themselves with pleasure. >> Yeah. >> Right. He's arguing lack of meaning causes people to seek temporary relief in superficial pursuits rather than addressing some before scrolling even existed. >> Yeah. Uh perhaps for many maybe even most people this is a big issue. But there is another group who suffer with the opposite problem. Frankle's inverse law. When a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure they distract themselves with meaning. >> Nice. >> If ease, grace, joy, and playfulness don't come easily to you, one solution is to just ignore momentto moment happiness entirely and always pursue hard things. You become a world champion at winning the marshmallow test. You convince yourself that delayed gratification in perpetuity is noble because you struggle to ever feel grateful. The TLDDR is you prioritize meaning over happiness because happiness doesn't come easily to you. >> Yeah, dude. But, you know, it's absolutely the encapsulation of the strivers lament. You know, it's like I can't I can't Everybody else is having a great time and I can't feel it. I don't, you know, they're out dancing and they're at a club. I mean, think about it. So, you're a club promoter in your heart. I'm a French horn player in my heart. You're a club promoter in your heart, right? >> And everybody's having a great old time and you're like, "No, no, this is my business. [laughter] >> Go and enjoy yourself. I'm going to suffer over here." >> I think in a real way, and the meaning part is quite right, but I think ordinarily strivvers are addicts for satisfaction from achievement. And so they will put points on the board and when they can't feel they can't feel enjoyment and so they put points on the board >> and and part of the reason is because they've actually never they've never learned how to do it appropriately. They've actually never learned how to do that. So [clears throat] >> enjoyment once again is is it takes has the at its root things that actually make you feel good. But that's not the right you know feeling good just pleasure is a terrible goal. I mean the the the the end of the road for pleasure is not happiness. It's it's detox, >> right? Because you that's just addiction is what it comes down to. If it feels good, do it was the hippie motto and it didn't end well, right? >> Um so, so that's so that's important that that you add people in memory to it. So, it's a conscious experience. It's in the prefrontal cortex, not just in the lyic system. Um but it's not apparent for everybody how to do that, especially if you're brought up in this way where I got to do more. I got to do more. I got to do more. Because what happens is that this idea that you're stopping and smelling the roses feels like waste [clears throat] of time. Maybe you have parents who say that, "Are you practicing?" I remember that they would yell through the door, "Practice." I was practicing five hours a day when I was in fifth grade. >> And and and so then the whole idea of stopping and going and having fun feels like you feel kind of guilty about it. And so you're you're frankly just bad at it. And you don't like to do things you're bad at. you don't learn how to. And then my wife is really good at enjoyment. Really, she just really enjoys life. She's Spanish. I mean, that's like it's a it's a whole country of people who enjoy life, right? >> And in the States, we're a little bit less good at it. And I'm especially bad at it. >> So, part of that actually, one of the one of the [gasps] the protocols for helping people like you and me is understanding leisure and actually having a structured, disciplined approach to leisure. M >> and actually take it if you don't know how to do it, take it seriously. >> You need to work hard at not working so hard. >> But but it turns out there's a philosopher who specializes in understanding leisure and that's Yseph Peeper who wrote leisure the basis of culture. Have you read it? Oh, it's great. It's a little thin book that he wrote. He's one of the greatest, you know, 20th century German philosophers untainted by Nazism. Thank god. And he wrote, you know, the four cardinal virtues. He wrote these really beautiful books. But his his probably his most influential book was leisure the basis of culture where he define culture as a serious business. It's not chilling on a beach which is called aidia also known as laziness or torpour you know it's like I can do that for like >> an hour >> and then you want to run away screaming it's the worst. He says that leisure is something that you're not being compensated for by the outside world but that's creating value. That's leisure and that's what will bring you enjoyment. He talks about in terms of deepening your spiritual or philosophical life, deepening your relationships, and learning things you don't need to learn. Just learning things you don't need to learn. >> So, when you think about what you're doing with the podcast, right? You're deepening relationships. >> You're talking about things you don't need to talk about, right? You're doing people would say, "Yeah, I'm not sure, you know, I'm not sure I can fit into this table, but that's leisure." Because you want enjoyment. I have a friend who was given a a [snorts] exercise by a coach. He was told that he needed to start doing a hobby, but that he wasn't allowed to try and get better at it. >> Yeah. >> And he decided to take up watercolor painting, I think, and did the first few classes or sessions or whatever, and immediately found himself going to YouTube to find out what exactly the best kind of paintbrush was to do the thing. And I'm going to find actually what's the best class in Austin that can do it because I can get better. if I can do this and what's the cadence? Do I need to be doing it three times a week in order to maximize my it's going to be struggling it's going to be difficult but three times a week cuz I got the knee and uh >> turn into a job >> coach came in and said no you're >> not allowed to try and become better at this thing. >> Yeah. >> Doing it like telically. >> Yeah. >> Not exotic. >> It should be atelically atelically. So that that's you know and and it's interesting because Aristotle talks about that with people that real friendship is based or is atelic. >> Mhm. >> You know it's the same idea right so if you have your friends because it's relationship it has a tilos it has if they're useful it's not it's kind of deal friends but real friends are atelic they're actually useless. It's the same thing with your activities the relationship that you have with the with the activities in your life. If it has a a really really strong >> tilos, I'm going to get better at it because I don't know. Yeah. You know what? I bet I could sell that. >> You'll strip the strip the love out of it. My My brother and I were both very talented classical musicians. He's three years older than me. He's a bass player, string bass, classical string bass. >> I was French horn. I had that. I was super telic. He was. He's And he still plays. He plays in community orchestras. He's a extremely skilled amateur. He loves playing the bass. He loves music. He loves it so much he doesn't earn a dime from it. That's why he loves it. [laughter] >> Let's say that someone feels completely empty right now. >> Yeah. >> Where should they start? What are the most important habits in order to increase the meaning in your life? >> Yeah. So the things to be the things to be thinking about are along the lines the the sustaining activities that will actually use your brain the way it's supposed to be used. So number one is understanding that your emptiness is not some sort of psychological weakness. That notwithstanding what anybody's going to tell you, there's not something wrong with you. On the contrary, your brain is working the way your brain works and you're living in the world and it's the malfunctions are not your fault. The malfunctions are you're going with kind of the slipstream of the culture. The culture is being driven by the technology. It's making you work in a way that's completely contrary to your ancestral habitat. And that's what's making you feel like garbage. That's what it comes down to. It's kind of like you're eating meal after meal of Twinkies and wondering why your digestion is wonky and weird. That's why is what it comes down to. What [snorts] we need to understand then is you need to become aligned. You need to have a brain that's properly uh hemispheric that's properly um balanced between the hemispheres of what you're doing, which means you need to change your behavior. So number one is getting right with technology. That's the number one thing that almost everybody today needs to do. Almost everybody's addicted. Almost everybody has a dysfunctional relationship with it. Some more, some less. Me less because I'm older. I remember the before times, right? I mean, I could you could throw Instagram up in front of me. I'm like, "Okay, you know, good. Good. This is really good for my business." You know, this is good. I could wildly interesting for for, you know, sharing my ideas with other people, right? You know, clips of you and me talking. people really like them and that's great makes me feel great but I'm not going to get I'm not going to scroll for an hour like right but many and the younger you are the more prone you are because you don't remember the before times so actually changing your behavior with respect to it and there's ways to do it that's what I write about then you got to live in a new way you got to live in a new way the first thing I recommend to almost everybody is go get bored go get bored get get good at it Right. I don't mean like this whole thing where you stare at the front of the seat in front of you for a 9-h hour flight on the way to Greece. >> Raw dugging. >> Raw dugging a flight. Yeah. It's a great expression, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's disturbing. But the whole I mean, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about actually living moment to moment. You know, putting your hands in your lap when you're in the on the train looking out the window and saying, "Huh, it's a tree." You know, being fully alive and saying, "I'm fully alive right now." So, you know, one of the ways to do that is to become more comfortable with, you know, repetitive prayer or meditative ideas that you would actually bring into your life. So, you can be more mindful. Just bring in some of those ideas so you can become more comfortable with your brain working the way it's supposed to. Which, by the way, ignites the default mode network in your brain, which you know about the set of structures that that allow you to mind wander. Mind wandering leads to meaning just as as as predictably as as night turns to day. That's the second thing. And then is actually having the experiences that that naturally open up the right hemisphere of your brain. That means allowing yourself to actually fall in love and make friends and doing things in real life with other people in relation to other people and taking risks in your relationship. It means actually entertaining the idea of something metaphysical beyond yourself. The left hemisphere is profoundly physical. The right hemisphere is metaphysical. It says there is something more. And again, you don't have to do it my way. I'm a Catholic. I go to mass every day. You don't have to do it that way. You can do it like Sam Harris. He's super right hemispheric guy, right? Because he has a sense of soulfulness. He has a sense of things beyond what we can actually see and touch. He believes there are things that we can't see and touch that exist. He doesn't think it's God. So, you know, you do transcendence your own way. Looking for calling. How? By serving other people and being needed. by doing something, you know, by allowing yourself to be served and loved. This is actually how you can find these things. Looking for beauty, actually experiencing more beauty, real beauty, real beauty. You're not behind the screen. It's not there. It ain't there, man. I don't care how long you look at it. It's not going to be there. That means going someplace in nature, listening to music that really sends you, I don't know, read a poem, go to a museum, right? Witness somebody helping other people just for no reason. And last but not least is uh lean into your suffering. Bring it on. You know, it's like I have this I make my students say my suffering is sacred, right? And there's a there's a you know, do you remember Norman Vincent Peele? Does that name ring a bell? Okay. He had a very famous self-help book in the 60s called the power of positive thinking. That that sound that rings a bell, right? He was a minister at a at a Protestant church in New York City. And he would say every single day when he started the day the psalm, this is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. And he would actually re, you know, he was like the gratitude list originator and the whole thing. All these good things, good things, good things. List all the good things that are happening in your life. List the bad things and say, "I'm grateful for that, too. Bring it on." Right? Say as you wake up in the morning, it's like, "I'm really grateful for the beautiful things that are going to happen this day. I woke up today. It's like I get to see Chris. It's going to be great. I'm really grateful for that. But something's going to happen today. I'm going to get a phone call or a text or an email that I'm not going to like. Bring it on. I'm grateful for that too because when I lean into that, then I'm going to be fully alive. That's the moment that I'm going to be fully alive. And that attitude of nonresistance to pain will actually lower the suffering paradoxically as it raises the meaning in life. >> Heck yeah. Arthur Brooks, ladies and gentlemen. Arthur, you're awesome. I appreciate the heck out of you, man. >> Thank you. >> Where should people go? new book. What else is going on? >> Yeah. Uh, so I'm all about, you know, looking for the sources of meaning in life. And so my my my website, arthurbrooks.com, actually has all kinds of ways people can interact. We have the meaning experience, which is a a collaboration of people from all over the world on the internet that meet once a month and and and talk about different ways to find the meaning in life. And I give a like a an academic lecture and then we have this great discussion. So we have all kinds of stuff and many ways to survey and measure where we are in our meaning journey. Uh, many ways to interact with each other. It's all at all the websites.com. >> Heck yeah. All righty. See you next time, everyone. >> Dude, >> thank you. Thank you. >> You're great. I mean, you're you're the best. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you love is just here.