Solitude is Bliss, Other People Suck (Clip: Narcissism Summaries Channel)

I believe that being alone is the natural state and that having been forced to work with each other in close proximity to collaborate with each other on anything from reproduction to recreation to production, manufacturing. Having been forced to do this, it created a lot of pent-up resentment and hatred and envy and rage and other negative effects. I think our natural state is to be alone. And the abnormal state is having to deal with other people, which sucks. It's onerous. It's difficult. It's disgusting. Other people suck. And so leaders like Donald Trump and Erdogan and Netanyahu and Putin and Modi and Milay and many others, such leaders and Orban of course, such leaders leverage these negative effects, this hatred, this envy, this rage against the other. The other which is the same like me but has done better in life. Same like me but more educated. Same like me but better paid. Same like me but, you know, goes on vacations constantly. Same like me but has a functional family. Same like me. Not an oligarch, not a billionaire which is way beyond my reach and absolutely not the same like me, but people who are the same like me but have won a hand in the lottery of life. And so populist leaders leverage this, this aggression, and thrive on it, and construct whole empires and patronage networks and political parties centered around this. And so at the current moment in history, we are far better alone than together. Togetherness nowadays, the intimacy of the masses, the hive mind, the cult mind, they are existential threats to the human species. We should thank modern technology for pulling us apart, from preventing us for interacting meaningfully with others. Because when we do, we get Maga. When we do, we get Netanyahu's party, the Likud, the the right wings. When we do, we get Putin. >> [clears throat] >> And when we do, we get Hitler. You're about to watch a an interview I um I've had. And regrettably, the interviewer refused permission, refused to allow me to upload the raw unedited exchange. So, what you're about to watch is a censored edited version, which I disavow and do not endorse. But still, it's better than nothing. >> Dear listeners, today I have something a little different, and I think you'll find it fascinating. In the last episode, I used the theories of Vaknin and Hegel to explore the narcissism embedded in Western spiritualism. And it occurred to me afterwards that only one of these theorists is dead. The other is a brilliant, eloquent speaker who could present his own ideas far better than a third party interpreting them. This week, you'll hear directly from Professor Sam Vaknin himself, one of the most recognized and yes, controversial voices on narcissism. Now, we come at this topic from different angles. Professor Vaknin goes deep into aspects of his theory that that may not have been laid out before. His view that narcissism arises from the human condition itself, and that the power structures around us simply reflect this inherent nature. Now, if you're a regular listener, you'll know that I lean more towards seeing power structures as integral to our atomization and as fostering narcissistic traits as coping mechanisms. So, after Sam's articulation of his theory, we move into a broader discussion. And this this isn't about who's right or wrong, it's about exploring different perspectives to better understand and hopefully better address the challenges of connection and disconnection in our time. So, no single lens has the whole truth and the more angles we bring to loneliness and isolation, the better equipped we are to deal with them. So, our conversation is a long one and one thing that Sam and I absolutely agree on is not censoring opinion. So, I'll be bringing you this in two parts. Part two will be out next week and this week I invite you to listen with curiosity and to notice what resonates for you and what doesn't because the questions we ask about human nature shape how we see the roles of culture and power. Now, if this is your first time here, I'm Jordan Rain, a philosophy graduate with a severe allergy to self-help gurus and this is the loneliness industry, a podcast where we examine the forces that shape our ability or inability to connect. Now, Professor Vaknin, um I suspect you don't need much of an introduction, especially if anyone has Googled you with narcissist after a mind-bending breakup. But, in case anyone listening up to to go into hiding due to society's current state, Professor Vaknin is the author of Malignant Self Love, a pioneer in the field of narcissism studies and one of the most controversial and most cited of voices on pathological narcissism. This is the man who coined most of the language we have today when it comes to narcissistic types, tactics, and behaviors. In the mid-90s, Professor Vaknin was almost the sole voice on understanding narcissism as pathology. Slightly less well known is the fact that he also delves deep into narcissism as a more general requirement of being in Western cultures. A professor of psychology, a former economic advisor, and someone whose work has not only shaped the online understanding of narcissism, but has also ignited intense debate across academic and clinical spheres. He is also, and I say this with great admiration, impossible to reduce to a single label. So, instead of trying, let's hear directly from the man himself. Sam, thank you for agreeing to speak on the loneliness industry. It is an honor to have you here. >> Thank you for having me, and thank you for the introduction. I barely recognize myself in it. >> [laughter] >> I've listened to enough of your stuff by now that everything I'm saying is true. You are unclassifiable. So, I'm going to start with the first question here. Um I'm going to move from the personal to the relational um with this question. One of the recurring themes in the loneliness industry is how narcissistic systems, whether individual or institutional, create profound loneliness by severing us from real connection. So, before before we zoom out to the societal patterns, uh let's begin with the individual in the relational context. How does narcissism create disconnection, both internally for the narcissist and externally for those in relationship with them? >> I don't think that that narcissism creates loneliness. I think it's rather the other way around. I think loneliness creates or triggers narcissistic defenses. And with your kind permission, if you if you were to suffer me for the next 5 minutes, I I will try to give an overview of how I see things, what has led to what, the chain of causation, and so on. And perhaps based on that, we could go on tangents and and explore additional territories, and so on. >> Sounds good. >> Start with the with the foundational indisputable non-controversial fact that we all need to be seen. And this starts in early childhood. This starts when you're a newborn. The first thing a newborn does is attract attention. A newborn who fails at attracting attention is a newborn with a very limited life expectancy. And so the need to be seen is a survival strategy experienced subjectively as a need. But actually it's about survival. It is through the gaze of other people that we derive initially sustenance, food, shelter, changing of diapers for those of us who are lucky. And then later on in life it is the gaze of others that define defines us. It is through the gaze of others that we acquire the sense of existing. Existence is not a given. Absolutely not. People think that existence just is part and parcel of being human or being an organism. That's not true. It's not part and parcel of sentience. It's not part and parcel of consciousness. It's not the sense of uninterrupted continuous core that is immutable, always there. The sense of being, this is what we call the self. The boundaries between you and the world, the world stops here and I start and I stop here and the world starts. And all the All these are just forms of internalized gaze, other people's gaze. That's not so black and That's Lacan, actually. And so the first instance of a defining gaze is inevitably, ineluctably, the mother's gaze. It is through the mother's gaze that the newborn acquires a sense of selfhood. But mind you, it comes at a cost. And the cost is trauma. It's very traumatizing to realize that you are not a part of mother and mother is not a part of you. To realize that mother is a separate, external entity with a mind of of her own, autonomous and independent and agentic. It's It's terrifying because it means it translates into an innate sense of less loss of control. The symbiotic phase where the baby and mother are one is very anxiolytic. It reduces anxiety. The baby is not anxious because there's nobody out there. Baby and mother are one. But then suddenly, through mother's gaze, the baby becomes separate. Bear Bear with me. I'm leading somewhere. I'm even going to answer your question, shockingly, ultimately. But we need We absolutely need this background because the need to be seen, of course, has vast social, societal, cultural, and commercial implication. And so we start with this fact. And then every time we experience someone else's gaze, we also re-experience the original trauma. Because it is true someone else's gaze evinces, documents our separateness. When we encounter someone else's gaze, it is the moment in time where we feel most alone, most lonely, because the gaze tells us the main bit of information in the gaze is, "I I not you." When someone is gazing at you, at the very same moment, the communication is I am not you. And you are not me. We are separate to each other. We're not the same. We are not symbiotic. We are not one organism. Well, and so this separateness creates existential angst. It's as if the intersubjective space uh is suddenly suddenly becomes unbridgeable, introversible. The The The extreme existential loneliness comes about only when you compare yourself to other people. You know that you're lonely because you are aware of the existence of other people. It is >> May I ask a question for clarification? Are you Are you talking about a failure in um in the mirror stage to bridge the mirror stage where one separates from the mother cuz you're talking about Lacan here. So, is this a failure Is this a failure in individual individuation as Young would possibly refer to it? Where um because you failed at the mirror stage to say, you know, I am separate in a comfortable fashion. >> This is not Okay. This is not a part of This is not a failure. This is the common human condition. >> Okay. >> I'm talking about every human being. Every human being goes through the mother's the experience of the mother's gaze, the alienating mother's gaze. Every human being consequently realizes his or her separateness from mother. Every human being is traumatized by this realization. And every future gaze to the day you die provokes or triggers this initial trauma with the with the primordial gaze. Why? Because when you are the subject of someone else's gaze, it is clear your separateness becomes incontestable. It is through someone else and someone else's gaze that you realize how alone you are. It your loneliness or your aloneness is in contradistinction to the existence of other people. >> Is this an impossibility of of being truly seen? Cuz it sounds like even if I were to attempt to understand you to the best of my capacity, that I would ultimately fail. And that my failure, despite maybe I get it I don't know 70% right, whatever is the highest percentage, you would still feel completely alienated even by my attempts. [clears throat] >> Which is precisely why I said a bit earlier that it evinces the fail or the unbridgeability or the in the the of the intersubjective space. >> Okay. >> So because the intersubjective space can never be traversed, can never be crossed, the other is never accessible. Never accessible, never comprehensible. Never never meaningful. >> Never fully graspable. Yes. >> And you're right that various philosophers >> An obstruction of of a kind, but it is the existence of that untouchable, impermeable, unbridgeable, inaccessible entity that allows you to realize your own separate existence. >> [music]