Smoot Community Calls - 2026/09/09

Hey, Merit. >> Hey, W. >> Hey. Hey. Good, good, good. Uh, how how is everything on your side? >> Huh? Interesting. Interesting. Um, yeah. as it walks to the end of the year like I for me personally it it might change what I do but we'll we'll like it has changed with AI anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah. Has been changing. Yeah. Oh wow. So many changes with AI. >> Yeah. Um sure. A whole new world you can almost think of. >> And yeah same thing same thing. I'm kind of uh we're working even last night still working on AI stuff. Yeah. And yeah, it's Yeah, we can talk about it also. I scan smooth code and also uh uh scenario code. It's just why AI is so powerful. It's just they find a lot of things that we we did not find before. So >> you also have to it. not something you can get let loose yet but so much better than the beginning of the year already. Um but yeah like it it it has a lot of false positives. >> Um I've also or through your through the Smoot code right like um we ran it through >> sign which is part of Smoot. Did you include signar in your scan or not? >> I did. I did. Uh yeah and that's the first question I I have. Um so there are a couple of things I I want to discuss. First I see a lot of uh all request checkins from from you from your team. It's great. Um and then there I yeah those are a lot of security fixes as well. So I I scan uh there's open AI chatbt or codeex has a new model called ashro right and a has something that's special. It has um a Daybreak KYC uh uh verification. >> What's the link in the chat? Your pronunciation. I'm lost. >> Oh my I still have accent uh GP. It's called GPT 6 Astro model. >> Sure. Azir >> extra extra >> extra extra model >> extra model. So this needs uh uh KYC verification they call it day break. What this is this is so powerful it is can scan a lot of security defects and and and they don't want hackers to to kind of abuse it. Uh so they want whoever run this model uh to go through that date break uh verification and and I I scan the code with this astro but I think it what what I found was that day break only apply to to certain level of reasoning difficulty you know if this just the default reasoning difficulty they're fine if you increase the difficulty level then then you need a verification which is a tedious process for for for the verification uh So, so this is the latest model and I scan the the both the the the bridge and the scenario and and I find a couple of issues. I can I can because I was not sure um >> don't you want to start a discussion? >> Uh like wait let me share my screen. Don't you want to start a discussion here? because I in my my bad I should have made one here for the discussion for the things that we know about in signar. >> Yeah, >> that we picked up and did not fix. Obviously, if you got all these things and uh where do you put it? But don't you want to like post those things in a discussion here? >> Yeah, that is one thing I want to discuss with you first because I just got it last night very late actually. In fact, uh but when the there's a high security issue, right? If this thing is in production or is in somehow in production, I don't want to disclose it. Uh so but if it's not in production yet, we have a chance to fix them. We can we we can put in that discussion. >> All right. Um I'm just seeing here what is sorry in our there's a one that was 17 June. Um, only a few of them, the well the cry ones, the the cryptography ones. Um, no, this is one thing that like I I wanted to You can see my screen, right? >> Yeah, I can see your screen. Yeah, sure. >> Oh, this is something I still want to do maybe because I'm aiming for a release of Signar by the end of September or the 21st of September. So, the last week of September. Um, a few of these things has been already handled, right? Uh, and because we know about the others, it feels to me I must bring them over to you. There's quite a bit like you can see uh that's still on decision still open and remaining about 20. Um, so I already have uh something here that we can that we can maybe like make a joint discussion. Um if you open it maybe with yours like I can throw what is left from my and we see if we can merge it somehow. Yeah, what I can do what what I suggest is that um I can send my scan result to you uh so that we don't need to disclose it both the smooth bridge and the scenario and then you can look at it if this is disclosable you can you can put it there and merge it or do whatever needs to be done but I think for for the uh for the smooth because some of the code are in one chain one chain side right I want to make sure that those if there's issue found I don't want them to to be published right now. So these have a fixed first and then then go publish it. [laughter] So so I can share internally but I don't want to put it in the in the open open let's keep it like yeah we can't have private discussions in here. Um, no. Okay, I agree. Like let's maybe it is a good thing that I never posted here then in the first place. Um, >> well, yeah. So, so if if this is not in production co production, that's fine. I think if in production I think it's I >> varants of forks of it are in production. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, but like there are so many things that it picked up that we already started fixing. So, if people don't move over to the smooth sign from our old sign, then like um you run the same risk as any other software of not >> uh updating like after the whole mythos and now you say Astra because that's that's what mythos was, right? same problem. They didn't want to release it because it's too powerful. Like the dark side might use it in a wrong way. Um I don't use that DPT anymore. Like it I feel it's like it's very outdated in my opinion. uh compared to other for coding for coding um I'm not I think when it comes to imaging and videos and those kind of things it's much better and and I have obviously not looked at it for security which is as as good you that you did. >> Yeah. Yeah. They they they said this is the one of the most powerful one is so powerful they don't want hackers to to use it. So basically >> what about mythos? Exactly the same thing. >> Oh [laughter] yeah yeah yeah. Okay. So that that's >> fable. See mythos became fable. So fable we can access now but it keeps triggering like 90% of the stuff that I throw at it. it comes back. I have to be very like pull out all my intelligence officer skills out again to like make sure it doesn't trigger it as a bad request in Fable. Um, so >> why what and then I don't look. So they say it's even >> as that's resolution, right? Interesting. Thank you for bringing it under my attention. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that that's one thing and I think uh there's a second thing I want to discuss with you a little bit. Uh and then uh then I can we can then we can spend some time maybe you walk through the the the changes you made there so many changes there maybe you can walk through some of those so that I can have a firsthand uh kind of understanding of the changes. Uh so um uh we had we had a call with uh uh LFDT and then tomorrow I also schedule a call with them. It's basically talking about the the status of smooth and also the the future plan. Okay. And because they have annual review and and and there the the technical committee has some questions and they want to kind of know more about it and I'm I'm preparing it and I I I just mentioned the work we have done and what our intention is but I want to mention to them that this whole opensource open forum thing uh because of the AI is so easy to scan the open source code and found issues over there and and and then just take advantage of those issues. So uh and then that would kind of then that that would kind of make us very difficult to put everything on kind of onto this open GitHub uh without a staging period where you you actually scan everything make sure everything works right so so I'm going to raise the issue over there and then uh another question is that there have been so many reporting requirement for for a project in in LFD DT right and then there are many questions they they they ask annual report they ask the meetups and and and and need to have a community blog things like that I say a lot of things so uh they may well propose or we can propose that we may want to remove some of these uh kind of additional requirements and make it like a a lab uh or something like that. Uh so um all other options uh do you have any suggestions on that or you you're kind of good with whatever the committee kind of decides to do or they can vote to decide on the future? >> I have a strong opinion when it comes to those kind of administrative thingies. Um whatever they feel strongly about we'll go with. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, tomorrow I just just answer the questions they have and then uh and then see what what they suggest and we can also well tell what we want as well. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So, that's it's good that you don't have we don't have any strong opinion because at this time I'm still debating if we go for this use cases, right? And with the current when I scan the code myself, I just don't feel that uh with this powerful AIS, I don't I feel it's very easy to attack those uh framework. Uh uh >> yeah, like but this is now already for a year or like when mythos made the big fast I think everybody should scan their code. It's a new era that we stepped in and we can't say crawled up on us. We knew it was coming and we know it was coming and wham there it is. Everyone should scan their code and like fix their their thingies with humbleness, you know, because it does humble you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But take that transition period rather um but do the work like we're all trying, right? Like I've I've given some of my time to segar as much as I can um to to try and fix things that it has picked up. Signar has not gotten all my attention to me to be honest, but >> um at least like make an effort. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then let me send the uh the scan result to you and then uh so can you take some time to walk through the uh the recent code changes? I I read that some of the but some of them have been approved by your team and then you get check in. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, they are quite well documented though to be honest with you. Let's see the first ones. Um, this is July. July seems to be it's not that many. I wanted to say it was this was originally just to bring our our changes back in. Um this was to replace all the Hyperledger references with with um Smoot because it changed. Then this was a feature that's coming from our side to support type one access cuz we're moving very much to be compatible with public chains as much as possible. So uh we needed type one transactions. So that just is adding the feature and uh this was needed by um sign in with Ethereum SIWE. It is like the issues is very why this is needed. Yeah, it's very well documented. So if you want to read through at least why this is needed for each one of them they are um that that was for that. So it's also just adding a signing endpoint and the chore was um the dependabot PR is also merged now but like to hopefully group it together but this came out of originally I think it was the dependabot modules that I was up it came out of another PR and the vulnerability checks now I lie it came out of a vulnerability check that that runs so it was also this at 1.2 go 1.2.5 is no longer really uh supported. So just moving on to that. So that was a chore and the rest are bugs. So I wouldn't say that they they killers but um we had to kind of fix them and this is more like how users are handled in signaring. Um you know the thing is that crashes the signer adding agent crash the signer. Um so it's more resiliency then security there. Um translate me This is housekeeping. Uh oh this is security. Now they all marked security because it was me that created the issues. Uh but in in general, yeah, this was security. You shouldn't write the pin anyway. Well, it's still in a database which I must tackle that issue. Um and then the go vulnerability issues that reported that was actually eventually also bled into a new issue for go to 7. So those was reviewed and merged along with the dependable things that didn't have an issue. Um and then there are 13 issues open that I have to decide and you have to decide maybe help me decide on what do we want to go into the release for 21 September. Um this is what got got created um by me uh two weeks a week ago and oh like the latest ones is as they come up with reviews of other things. So like I say this list is not complete. Um there are things that I rather want to open a discussion about like the database the pin that is actually stored in a database and things like that because the change is um it changes the pipelines that run automatically because it it's a little bit of a change. It's not a a simple fix. um documentation uh uh well this needs to I think this has actually already been added and there simple things like misspelled I can it's a day's work I will do this things um a zero gas limit is wrongly encoded um then this is again more of a resilience issue uh than anything else in my my opinion and then Hispanics and it I don't know you can you can maybe mark one as with give it a new label like um next release or something if you want one of these things um I think it's very important or you want to add more to them because there is like two weeks that I can squeeze in some issues into signing while I have reviewers that helps Yeah. Yeah. And do you um have you also Adam uh look into this quantum thing quantum resistant uh thing? Is is it possible to add uh quantum resistance in soft HSM into scenario? >> Yeah, the the um soft HSM is already like supported some of those algorithms. Um, so this was why it confused me a little bit when you said you had to add it uh if the or how you say you had to add to soft HSM. I can see that you have to add that kind of signing to sign. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Not not change soft HSM as far as as I could see. Uh, not that I tested it, but didn't you make a I think you make the issue on the other board because there wasn't a repo. Maybe we should bring the issue over bridge issues. No, this is cloud HSM. U this is another thing. It should be tested. It should work. >> The only thing is your slot configuration. Um again like that doesn't should not even like being changes to sign it should be changes to your configuration of sign. So I don't I will create the issue if I see it's an issue. Um but definitely something I will create a future issue for maybe not for the next two or not for the next two weeks but definitely create an issue um for the quantum signing. Thank you for that. Make a note. >> Yeah. And then the the um I think last time we mentioned that uh we want to possibly have a have a get a scenario uh kind of blog, right? >> Uh yeah. Do you are you still considering that? Do you want to have >> I said last time after release and like I'm going to say it again. Can we do it after release [laughter] >> that I can make a note I can give you maybe like a the slides saying this is what was fixed >> um >> okay >> and and things like that otherwise I don't know what to blog about. I don't want to make too much of a splash until everything is sort of stable. So >> even for us like um our smart contracts is almost stable or our sign is like there's still lots of things that's left there but our gateway is stable. So for us is like don't make too much of a fuss unless your software is st stable. >> Yeah. And the uh when when what is the plan the release time? Do you have a >> um told me like every quarter? So it's every three at least unless there's a patch needed or anything like that. I said every month and he said no every quarter. But because there's so many fixes now that um scans are picking up, I want to release every month until we sort of stable [laughter] stable ground >> also in the open source people. >> Okay. Okay. >> But if you want to Oh goodness. Security and quality nine 900s. What? [laughter] What? This is not sign. This should go away after the next release um in our project anyway. H come on repos. It's not a project. It's a repo. And ignore him. There's not that many uh three. This should go away now when we merge into main. It was the pendots and these should all go away. >> Okay. >> Because we work in [laughter] development branch. Yeah. But otherwise like maybe you should look at them. [laughter] >> Yeah. Actually we are our resources is limited. Uh that's also and there are so many things to worry right now. It's just like uh yeah definitely I still have one report that I have not posted yet. Uh >> yeah those answers. >> Oh okay there also if you enable a thousand things that detect stuff in node modules node modules is like a black hole which is [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. And there's not much we can do right and and and even like smart contract we still have dependency on older version of smart contract. So it makes it very very difficult you know. >> Now see this is the thing with the quantum signing also um why do we need it? There must be a reason to put it in signaring and I'm going to now make it sound like it's coming from the bridge side from the smooth side. Um but for us is what contracts can we use already? What is really viable? Um there are people that put some some pre-ompiles out there for the for the algorithms but again nothing is nice and stable that won't say that algorithm. Yes, we're going to to like you say like it the the best we can do right now would be to put it inside a snark and a stark and we're working quite closely with linear on the layer 2. Um think it's just really starting to get into the pract practical things you run into when you run your own prover and like it's just insane resources that you require and trying to optimize that a little bit. Kuni is very good there. It's one of our developable one of our colleagues um very good in in in optim and they made their own risk five hardware solution now. So but also going all the way to the hardware to try and optimize um creating proofs zero knowledge proofs because people are very quickly is like oh yeah we just chuck it in a in a proof of stuff. Are you going to convince your client to run run a proven? So the that that um practicality is also something that we're working on in this song. Yeah. So we'll also have to like sort of listen to what Bezu and Lennia and those people that we're working with what are their solutions and then we can see what algorithm is that and then put it into a ser this is our way when when quantum signing is going to get into the serer but if you say it is it is something that's requested from the bridge side then we can maybe look at what soft HSM is offering and see if we can add an endpoint. Yeah, I I just sent a link in the chat right here, right? And actually just two days ago this uh there's a request to from Foundation to review like a many uh EIPs uh and then to see to prepare for the uh quantum resistance and and that would contain a lot of I think there are over 60 people according at least according to report over 60 researchers working on that. um so to see which which EIP is the best and kind of stay to the top in terms of making quantum resistance algorithms and then and then and then proposals and standards for that. So I'm I'm looking at this one. So at least we have some clarity because there are so many ways to to implement the quantum resistance >> but are they asking for evaluation or here I read this like we evaluated that 62 EIP proposed forions They're evaluating they're evaluating that. That's why I read it. Yeah. Because some of them will get to the next big release, right? Some of them will not and they're evaluating that. So when uh when we do things, I want to make sure it's the in line with what what was going to be adopted, >> right? Okay. So this is everything. Sorry. This is not just quantum. >> Not just everything. Not not just quantum, but but quantum is a it's a major thing also. Yeah. >> Wait. Uh, wait. Which EIP is call? Okay, I'll go through this. Um, did you want to test one of them or did you want to be part of this or are you thinking of going to Defcon or >> No, I'm I'm not going to be part of this. This is No, we don't have that bandwidth. So, I'm I just want to watch the result coming from here coming from this list. So then at least I pay attention to the EIPs they are relevant because some of the VIPs are not going to be kind of selective, right? So >> cool. Thank you for >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. This at least they they kind of u working on that. Okay. To evaluate these EIPs. There's so many of them right now. >> Yeah. The North Star classes only quantum resistant across all three layers >> by December 2029. [laughter] >> That's a lot. Well, three more years. >> Well, I wonder if they're going to be in time. Oh, okay. Cool. Thank you. Um, are you going to Where is Defcon Gond this year? >> Uh, uh, where is it? Where is it? >> Where is it? >> Yeah. Where is it? >> I don't know. Like, uh, >> if it's the US, I may go. But if outside US, probably will not. >> I still don't like it's a it's a Mumbai and Indian. >> Oh, probably not. [laughter] There's too many people in India for me too. >> No, it's it's good. I just travel too fast as you know. I don't like traveling. >> No, I don't. No. >> Okay. Well, Thailand has been very very far away far already for me. >> Yeah, it was far for me too. No doubt. Um, >> yeah. Well, I I just came back from hiking up a very steep mountain. I'm also not not traveling like November. That's still two months. But now I'm also not India is like I said for me it feels there's too many people in India. >> Oh okay. Yeah. Well it's just you still love hiking. >> It is a a very very special. It's a volcano actually in Africa in central Africa um that I'm very connected to and I still if I had a lot of money I would throw research at it. Um it it is actually protected by by black mambas that breed there. It's a snake. So we went up the other side which is it's just an incredibly steep because you walk up as the lava strata uh flowed. >> So it's not like people normally walk up a mountain like zigzag. They you go up straight and like it just like five hours. The guy killed me because we got stuck in the sand. He just he walked me after my death just to get to the top for sunrise. >> [snorts] >> So you walk during the night but I'm very connect I think there's something very of very scientific um significance in that volcano and I would love to study it a little bit further but my my physics is my ma mathematics is is great my my physics is um self-taught almost like I last had quantum physics was my second year which is a year to a long long time ago in university. So, my physics is lacking to be able to do more there. And like I say, we we're all waiting for our ship of of funding to come in for whatever reason. But that is why I climbed the M. When I say climb a mountain, there's always a reason we [laughter] >> it was to for rock climbing. Um which is like you you you have gear and you climb um rocks with certain technique. It's a there was a reason that I climbed the mountain. I walked out the mountain. >> Okay. So, you're good at outdoors. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh one thing I want to say is that most of the physicists are good at math, but no, not many mathematicians are good at physics. >> Yes. No, fair enough. It's applied mathematics and um my interest has shifted with the whole um advances of the whole understanding of the quantum world um quantum mechanics and those things becoming more prominent way after we choose where we study. So very self-taught you can almost say in quantum physics but um you can't always say I want to stay in my own own field when your own interest has changed. So I still believe mathematics is is very useful but you're right you're right um it doesn't ne necessarily bleed over um from maths into into physics for me it was a a whole jump of interest not really a natural flow back to physics. Yeah. Yeah. >> And then the like math, physics, engineering. Okay. Physics is is in between. You have to you have to know enough mathematics and you still need to apply well apply math well is useful for physics and apply physics is useful for engineering. So that's that's that's why I see it. Yeah. Yeah. I worked for a company while I was studying for for was a long time five years electromagnetic software and systems. So this was um physicist that came out of university and started a company and they needed software written for them. So I paid off like or I supported myself through my studies um working for them and they were that were physics. So my whole software development career started by implementing physics and they they come and they just dump like your whole desk is full of actual books [laughter] of physics things and like it has to work like this. Oh, I remember I still had to sit over weekends and and read physics applied physics books to get this um the software to go. FICO was it was called Buoying is still using it today. So it was um so my introduction is actually it's not so far away from applied physics. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's we I think we're very similar track of career. I started the first project as the first engineer working on in the US or company working on CFD computational flu dynamics. They just did not know that in Texas there's guy who there's a guy who know programming and and CFD computational fluid dynamics. So we have a pro product called for prom to calculate how heat flow in chips and computers and that product still around. It was bought by uh uh Mentographic and Mentographic was uh bought by Seammens and so it's like calculating how he flowed in chips and computers simulator. >> Oh, nice. That's actually that's brilliant. Right. Like fluid dynamics is founding their way into almost all others areas like um because like we don't know that the ethers can also be seen as a fluid thing. >> The Yeah. So it is going in everywhere even even quantum mechanics is using fluid dynamics. >> Exactly. And that's not many people know about that. So the guy who interviewed me say oh I'm going to hire you right now. Like okay that's the first time I get to industry and I say wow it's so so difficult to find someone who know physics and know computing. It's just like in Yeah. Yeah. So, so I that's how I get to industry and and that product still around and the first year I got 50 51 license sold to companies like IBM, Intel, it's HP people who need to design computer and chips, how to see know how who need to know how he heat flows because the heat is the big problem right now >> in in in computer chips and and and devices how to get the heat out and then you need to simulate that. Oh, even to keep and super position um to this this everything is about keeping it very very cold. >> Exactly. And the way we do it is that you can you you can have a web browser you can lay down the the component that you have and you just say simulate then we just compute uh based on the CFD and then how how heat flow and then where do you where you need to put the fan if you need one or not? If you need one, where what's the best position to put the fan and what be the configuration of the fan? >> That that does to me is like useful things. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes I feel like I write software at the moment for fintech. >> How useful is it really? And how long is it going to last? [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that that kind of is very useful. And then if you can calculate how heat flow in in a small chip, you can probably calculate how heat flow in a building, right? So when you design a building then you calculate as well. Yeah. >> What you're saying is actually so true on such a fundamental level like um if you want to understand something that is not yet observable like for example radiation coming off black holes like what they call Hawking radiation >> um to to to not try to look so far because our universe is the same as it is very big. It's also very small. we still just can't really make that leap from the quantum to Einstein's um equations of of relative uh relativity but like they say as it works in the big it also works in the small so when you figured out something for a small chip that it will blow up one layer bigger and be applied into something a little bigger is it doesn't s surprise me at all I think yeah >> yeah it's so interesting these fundamental AL laws apply to very very tiny scale which is at the quantum level. It also apply to biggest steel scale which is the universe level. It's just like the smallest one and the biggest one all apply all kind of follow the same law. It's just [laughter] >> and it's actually the mystics has been saying this for so like for for centuries they they have this thing where they say as above so below and as within so without. So even in our body like how our cells work we can figure out on actually if there's guys who models and things like how a proton um can be a black hole um this is Nazim Haramman he's a he's a respected physicist um but he's a controversy looking at and how you can then entangle because that means like every proton in your body is entangled with every other proton in the universe and this is how you can sort of have telepathy and things like that where which is like spooky action at a distance is what Einstein called it which is quantum >> but it's it's a fundamental law of that's been coming for since we have had papyrus to write it down >> yeah well maybe when the quantum error come we can have more more interest from the public about these kind of quantum mechanics and these advanced studies on on universe and then and then yeah and >> well this is where I want to go to but it's like it it feels to me it's a woowoo world [laughter] >> to try and breed a bridge between metaphysics and physics because this is where um because if you think about the relativity theory of relativity Einstein is where they it says pretty much tell you like time is an illusion um the block universe where the past the present they all exist at the same time and in quantum states time takes on a little bit of a different status. Um and then they say but it's circular. So where you have infinity sits right next to zero um when you want to take it to mathematical equations and the the whole thing is we can't figure it out because the human perception >> um is still we perceive time right? If somebody tells you time is an illusion, we perceive time because we are bound to the cycles of the moon and the sun and our bodies >> and but we can also go into dream states where we sort of a little bit or some people have it just before they die um where you where you're free from those cycles of the body um where all perception of time does disappear. These people say they felt like or they come out of anastasia which many of us that had an operation experienced. uh you come out of that where consciousness wasn't shut down just your wakefulness but you have no concept of what's time people would ask the doctor did you start already um so to to bring the human experience back to the physics that's the big gap and this is where my interest lie but where do you find a job like that funding like that it is it is um it's difficult um So we we we still we still work for the the people that pays us. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I when I said that the these quantum thing work on the smallest scale and the biggest scale, one thing I did not say was that these things don't work on the normal daily life scale. >> Yes. No 100%. Yeah, >> the quantum the quantum actually is very interesting where it you are who you are Ouija um because of memory. So it's not time or space time. It's um it's memory time and like there it's like now you're the whole now you now you're wiju now you're the hole now you're wiju such a fast rate that it looks like you're solid. So that is it's it's crazy if you if you want to wrap your mind around it. And to be honest, we still don't have the mathematical equations to link the big with the small. But uh we kind of starting to see over and over again how they work exactly the same. >> Yeah. I I think one thing I noticed was that when the more I work on AI, the more I feel like AI can represent humans memory. when you mention my memory right now when I work on a project for a long time I almost feel that I can dialogue with this AI because he kind of knows things that I have no thought at all because and then he know what I'm saying it looked like we can communicate very very well because sometimes >> well this is the first problem in AI was like the context right because then nothing will get the moment you switch to another chat and then you get your multi- aents which um a guy had a 1 billion bet that against large language models and more the multi- aent things that support the multi-agent uh memory. Um but to to to be honest if you if you ask uh what we are we are very much memory right like if we distance ourselves from you got different types of intellect which is like your your discernary which is your survival um and and you have eight different dimensions of memory which is like you can it's it's elemental it's atomic it's genetic it's evolutionary um it's genetic is one of them. Then it's like articulate and nonarticulate memory and then conscious memory. So, and that conscious memory is just a tiny last little bit of it. Um and the rest of it can be very much like you say it's like AI can come very close to to filling those human memory but we are not our memory and we are people talk loosely about consciousness but we are not our intellect our mind and we are not our our memory. We are the highest level of of of consciousness is actually the intellect without the memory. So this is what yogis do. They go sit in a cave and they meditate and they start to to bring in information um without memory. So they they know >> they don't know. Yeah. This is India for you right? >> People live um for the last 30 years they haven't eaten at all which they called brethians. Um, so they've learned to even even their bodies learn how to manipulate their bodies that it works a little bit more like a plant because they still need sunlight. But that means even we don't even understand how our own bodies work. >> We don't know what the heart we don't know what time is. We don't know what gravity where gravity comes from really. Uh, we're starting to to to think of it as the spinning of spacetime. But um the the mystics tell you, oh space comes from time and physics tells you no time gives gives um weight to matter and um gravity creates matter, right? Like so space time [clears throat] is then this this this matter >> more more complex. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I like AI. AI is definitely memory based, right? So like uh you need to like the incidents happen and then you tell the AI then AI write it down as a memory. So like like uh like a claw right they happen several times already. I turn the auto on not manual which means that you can execute the command but the original setting is that you I only trust this directory which means that it should not go out of this directory but >> they don't listen to that. They don't listen to that >> memory. They keep a memory file that they um >> try to to coordinate between context. Things that they think is important, they will write in that memory file. I I go and like even things that's allowed that they're allowed to access they take write it to a file. So you have to go purge your AI every week >> to say like everything that I allowed you to do just scrape it this let's start scratch again. uh you're asking for permission again. So >> but again we don't what memory are we talking about because it can't no cellular genetic evolutionary atomic or elementary memory. So it is only what memory can it it can I can't do anything new this is my my my point like so it can only do something based on memory ever so this is your next step for AI would be able to make it uh be able to have those things that make us creative >> that makes us create new things and that is millions of years of evolution ution. It sits in your cells. It sits in your I don't think we're going to be able to download that to AI very I don't know transfer the whole consciousness over into AI. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not into >> Well, one thing Yeah, one thing is the imagination and create creation, right? That's something I have been interested as well. The the how do you design a system that can imagine things and that can create, right? And I think that's that's possible now because I'm talking about something that's very very practical which is the pattern right you have a patent idea and then you kind of this a teaching for how to how to create a pattern how to create creative ideas right and then how do you kind of uh design these idea into a product right and I think if we if we collect enough creative ideas they can assemble these many times is the assemble and and and filtering of these ideas, assembling these idea that made the creativity to be to be wonderful. >> Yeah. But that's not the AI being creative. That's AI collecting creative ideas. I don't creative to me means like it it does not create from everything that it collected accumulated in memory. creative is like something really that comes with uh to me it's it's something new and I mean you have to change your mind firstly and start thinking that your thoughts is not your own and even the the greatest minds like Tesla and Einstein and Pythagoras they all said like my my the best ideas like after I wrote it down on a piece of paper I almost didn't know that that that that came from me so we have to take a little bit of distance of where our thoughts thoughts and our creativity actually come from? Are we maybe just an antenna that tunes into this creative field which they call ethers uh which is also started to come into into physics now like um and then that stream is the creative stream and AI cannot tap into that because they're not conscious they're not don't have the the apparatus for that so I don't think they can ever be creative >> yeah but there are two levels on there right that that one suppose you have 10 components Right? The human has 10 components, 10 small components and air has 10 small components and then we start to create new things based on these 10 components these elements. >> But that's a lie. That's a absolute how can you take the very complex human beings creative process and put it into a um a 10step protocol that is like um I don't know it's nice to teach people how to think. Yeah, >> I will teach someone how to code if I want to teach them how to think [laughter] for example. um or or trying to help someone understand certain thought processes. But I don't think that is going to a me that is can ever be a a a process that describes that because even quantum physics tells us it's a feedback loop where you feed the universe with your thoughts and your feelings and it manifests things um which can also be thoughts and feelings again. It's like a whole feedback loop. Uh so not I don't think you can program that into circuits at all. [laughter] That process is so complex. The human being is the most advanced technology on the planet. We don't even know where the heart beats. We don't know where thoughts come from. Um neuroscientists can't tell you these things. So like to to to to say that it can do the same thing as a human in creativity is I don't know. There's there's there's there's a big gap for me there. You can make it certain protocols of course but that's not going to squeeze out creativity. What when do you compare things there there are many level comparison right you can compare AI which is human generated thing with human then in that say of course human or mankind is superior to AI because we create human create AI so that's one compar another thing is that AI comparing with one generation of mankind this generation or the previous generation right or AI compare with one person but AI definitely has more creativity than one person or a normal person. Right? I think at least some at this time I feel AI is more creative. >> This is what we trying to do. We we're trying to you work with kids. We want everyone to be a creative person because it's so dull. We what was we were so the kids are being pushed to make money and to to achieve and to compete and to do Darwin's way of going forward and it's like they lose their creativity. Every human being should be capable of more creativity than a bloody AI at the moment. And what you just said like you can take it maybe a step back and you say we are the AI of the mineral world. >> So the hydrogen the potassium the which is like the electrical circuits in our brains right without potassium that doesn't doesn't work. So the whole mind needs those elements. So if you want to think of us as the AI of the mineral world then I can speak with you and we can maybe um now saying that it's one level up um that because but then you start speaking of the human being merging with this because we're not separate from the elements that makes us up. >> We are all those elements and even a lot of bacteria and viruses and all of things. Um and and then you talk I don't think we should merge with machines with but that is the the next level would be that right >> if you want to want to take the it one one step further that we must become the AI >> like like the the minerals became the human >> but yeah I don't I won't put a chip in me not no way. Well, there have been people designing actually MS were designing chips implant on humans. Yeah, >> people stand in cues for it pay obscene amount of money to put their credit card in their wrist. Um those those kind of thing I I think China will probably be first [laughter] to do those monstrosities. >> Um I won't uh I think our human body works very much on a on a way the muscles work. So if you don't use it, you're going to lose it. So if you're going to stop using your own facilities, faculties uh for memory and only rely on AI uh which is what happens when you do things you have no interest in [laughter] which I'm very guilty of sometimes again doing it for money but then you let the AI remember things for you and it let it do things for you and you you never use your own faculties anymore because there's no interest there's no desire there's uh excitement that flares up um and and I think you will lose it. So they are going to a lot of people's going to become dumber with AI. >> Yeah. >> Because for sure. Yeah. >> Doing things they don't like and they they don't see that or they can't imagine then there's something bigger because they only think my intellect if it can't think any further. It doesn't exist. And that's a very wrong way also to think. is like we all can find something that excites us and that triggers our memory cells and that keeps our brain nice and young and um not necessarily got put in a chip to replace a part. I think it's a very bad bad road. Yeah, I think there's you know a psychologist named the PI uh he classify human psychology development into four stages and then he claimed that at the age of 11 to 12 uh people become uh rational people or the logical stage which means that one characteristic is that they know how to do proportional reasoning not just primitive reasoning which is they call it he call it concrete reasoning. ing which is addition and subtraction. He he he actually used design math to test that and then he said that at the age of 11 to 12 that is a transition from concrete thinker to logical thinker or proportional thinker but [laughter] like like 50 years later data when calculators around and people have much much higher education uh research were done in the US colleges and turned out that like over 50% of the college kids do not know about proportional reasoning they actually lose their capability. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is Yeah. Which is is like I don't want to go back into the education system because of the way I came out of it. >> It is like [laughter] >> it almost like made me deescalate in my level of thinking [snorts] and uh the the 12 years is is interesting because again in India they have a different way of raising their children. they brought in a new thing now that they no education before the age of 12. um they only want to start only play and they yeah it's it's a strange they see intellect a little bit different than us and I I kind of respected in trying to understand myself like I cannot solve everything in an intellectual way and it was very hard for me to accept that um like they explain it to you as intellect being like a sharp knife And you want your intellect to be really sharp, as sharp as possible. >> But um to try and do something else, everything with a knife, like if I try to sew a dress with a knife, I will cut it to shreds. It would it wouldn't work. So not to address everything with your intellect. Um sometimes if I want to we've in science always cut everything up. That's what the word science actually means. Um the >> is to dissect Let's dissect. I didn't know that. >> Well, and and [clears throat] if you think about if I want to know how Ouija as a human being work, >> is it really the best way to chop you up into pieces? >> Is is looking at your liver and your heart and your spleen and your kidneys going to tell me who you are? Um, so I I think scientists got a little bit went a little bit wrong there in saying the only way we can and we've learned a lot by cutting open frogs and plants and all kinds of things to learn how it works. Um, but is there a better way? Um, and this is like even just the the same analogy of of of meeting a human being. It's not necessarily listening to what they're saying. um and and using the intellect to cut the person up into pieces of who are you but to be more like an animal of sitting with them and just sensing just seeing it's like how do you feel how you making me feel when I sit here and um trying to understand those kind of things pulling information without memory again because intellect is it's it's something that will always serve an identity so the moment you take on any identity whether you or is it your nationality or your job or what everything your intellect is going to serve it immediately go and be obey it. And this is to come back to the 12year-old. Um they don't want to give that very sharp knife to a a kid that doesn't have or to to something that doesn't have an identity. Um because the very sharp knife you don't give it to the child. Um and this is also why they rather want the child to form that identity up to the 12 years of age. Actually for the western world I would make that seven but um you know India it's it's a different kind of lifestyle but and they also assume a cosmic identity before they assume identity in a in a in a general world but they look at intellect a whole different way. Um it's the world is not so much driven um or this is more in the this the more spiritual senses of where people start to talk out about how they how you should raise a child. How where have we gone wrong because we're on a very bad track to be honest and how can how can we do better? These people are starting to open these schools where it starts at age 12 and before that you are only playing and you're just being a kid and you're forming an identity and making sure the kid knows like you are part of the cosmos and you don't necessarily belong to a country because somebody pulled like lines um there uh you belong to the cosmos and once once that once a person has a good identity you can give them a very sharp knife with the intellect. These things are very interesting. It's very very interesting to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll talk. We can talk more later bit later. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yes. >> Okay. Great talking to you. Great talking to you. Yeah. Yeah. I think follow on that. I sent the email to you already and then you can we can look at those issues and then we can >> we can discuss it. Then if you can think it's open it can be open then I'll log issue over there. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you very much. >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'll talk to you later. Yeah. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye.