Slow Reps vs. Fast Reps — What the Data Actually Says (The Answer Has Nuance) | Mind Pump 2951

Does how you do your reps ma matter? Does it really make a difference if you do them slow or fast or really slow? Does it change anything or does it not matter? Is it just up to your preference? Today we talk about the data. What does rep speed and how you do your reps tell you about the goals and results you're about to achieve? We're going to talk about that today. Let's go. >> Anything prompt this does matter. >> Yes, something did prompt this to me. So, we'll talk about the data. So studies are getting quoted right now and I've seen these studies that say that uh rep speed within a reason. So they're not going crazy, right? So you're not doing like a 40 second rep. I don't think we have too many studies on those, but they'll compare slow reps to fast reps, right? Slower negatives to faster negatives and positives. Uh >> and they'll show similar hypertrophy. Okay? So they build the same amount of muscle. Now, the thing that is frustrating to me and I'm sure it is to you guys uh and to other uh good trainers is that uh people communicate things in ways that are so simplified that we really lose the nuance. And so that what I think the consumer hears or the average person hears is it doesn't matter >> which actually isn't the case. Now for hypertrophy and not might not matter although I'll make the case it does matter. Um and it matters for a lot of other things. So, let's talk about that a little bit about rep speeds and why they matter and why we should pay attention and not just uh listen to someone on Instagram say they all build the same amount of muscle. >> Well, they they matter for a lot of different reasons. Um I when I think of like speeds of my reps for my clients, I always took my clients through a really really slow rep range, especially early on in their training. >> Yeah. And just this was just purely out of a like mechanical, right? I want >> to get be able to tweak their form. And if they're kind of moving at this faster cadence, it's really tough to critique and >> get them to feel it. And so I did a lot of like pausing in the middle of the rep and slowing it way down and and talking to them through the rep like you feel it there and oh but more arch your arch this more puff your chest out more pull this back roll this forward like queuing them through the movement until it becomes something that they feel really comfortable before we start to manipulate >> uh the tempo uh later on and reap the benefits of of that. It was like starting slow to me was always the the better better way to go. >> Yeah. Starting slow and really it's about like how we >> really anchor our body down and and create this stability. And so to to be able to perform the action of the movement we're trying to achieve too, a lot of times they still have to learn how to like keep the rest of their body like really stable and in place. And um two to to avoid pain and dysfunction and you know perform it mechanically sound. uh because then once we add acceleration, this is where it's like, okay, if there's any flaw in the kinetic chain, it really gets like exponentially uh louder. So, totally. What's frustrating to me um with stuff like this uh when I hear hear this data getting cited is that it throws out logic. I think the average person, this is what's funny to me, the average person, if you were to ask them this, um, do you think it would be safer to do an exercise slow and controlled or faster? They're going to logically be like, well, slow and controlled, obviously. Um, but then you got these people communicating on social media saying it doesn't matter for hypertrophy. I'm going to tell you something right now. The the thing that will prevent you from building muscle and getting the body that you want the most is injury. Mhm. >> Like nothing will stop you in your tracks >> faster than injury. Yes, you can become unmotivated. You can stop going to the gym, all that stuff, but when you're hurt, you're hurt. You can't do anything. >> And moving a weight slow is always safer for a few different reasons. One, what what you said, Justin, uh if your technique is off a little bit, going fast is just going to make it uh off that much more. uh because however hard it is to have perfect squat form with a controlled tempo, now you multiply times 10 when you're trying to go fast. And that's just true for any kind of movement. The second thing is just uh momentum. When I'm lowering a weight and changing direction, >> if I'm lowering 100 pounds, let's say I'm going down in a squat with 100 pounds and then I change direction to come up, that momentary change in direction because of momentum makes that 100 lbs heavier. >> Yeah. >> Okay. It's always heavier because I have to change the We know this like you get a heavy ball. Yeah. It's physics. Like you get something heavy moving in a direction. To get it to move in the other direction, you got to stop the momentum and then move in the other direction. And so that 100 lb squat could become 200 lb momentarily if you go fast. Uh and that person's joints or stability not might not be able to support it even with good form, even with perfect form. >> Well, that doesn't that get exponentially heavier the faster you go too? So it's like uh going fast. >> The change of direction is >> Yeah. The change. So if you're let's just use a number like you you drop into a squat and it's a you know a 3second drop into the squat and then go back the other direction versus a 2 second versus a 1 second versus a half a second. Like as you shorten that deceleration the time of deceleration or uh descent the demand and it becomes even more stressful on the body to go the opposite direction. >> That's right. 100%. And what t what tends to happen for most people and we're going to get to the benefits of different rep speeds and why moving fast uh is beneficial in some cases but uh the average person when they're moving quickly or or faster than they can really stabilize what tends to stop the momentum is the joint and not the muscle. >> Yeah. >> It tends to be the joints end range of motion. I'm going to tell you something. your ligaments, uh, connective tissue, uh, are designed to hold a certain amount of stress. But when you use those to stop momentum, you're asking for trouble. Now, in extreme cases with very highly trained athletes, they're they've developed their bodies to be able to do this. They've trained like Olympic lifters are phenomenal at this. Like, they move very quickly >> to the bottom of a squat. Uh but you take the average person uh even the average trained person and you have them, hey do a squat like an Olympic lifter and you're going to hurt your knees uh or your back. So the injury risk alone makes this a big deal. And the problem with studies is they tend to be collegeaged males because those are the kind of people that sign up for these studies. They're the ones that have time to get paid $25 a day to do a study like this. >> They're pretty resilient >> and they're pretty resilient. And it's a it's a 12week or 16week study. you if you follow these college age males for 2 years here. You over here move everything fast, you over here move slow, you will see a big uh difference in injury. Um and then and then because of that injury, well, let's measure strength and muscle. Oh, looks like these guys over here built more muscle. Why? They didn't have to take five weeks off. >> Yeah. >> Because they hurt themselves. So, this is important to understand. The the other thing is performance and functionality. Okay. So, here's where different speeds make sense. What you train is what you get good at. Mhm. So, slow reps are safe. They build muscle as well as fast reps do. This is true. Now, why would you at some point with careful consideration want to practice moving quickly? Well, because if you always train slow, then you'll never be able to move fast. >> Mhm. >> And now this I've experienced myself. Uh I train very controlled. Um you know, I follow more of a bodybuilding style of of strength training or powerlifting style of strength training. And I almost always train this way. And I've had experiences where I try to move fast and I hurt myself. >> And it wasn't because I wasn't strong. It was because I never trained to move fast. >> Yeah. >> And so this is where training fast, if you're well trained, you've got good technique, you're considering uh all the things, you may want to throw in some fast training because real life often times calls upon speed. Uh real life doesn't often move real slow and control. I mean this is really this created camps of thought where it's like athletes just need to stick with like fast training and so there's whole modalities that have been created to address that and obviously there's like prerequisites to get into that uh level of training where it's like appropriate and um but at the same time you know there's there's another camp where it's like you need to build the strength you need to have like overall ability uh and then add on top of that while you know in conjunction you can you can train fast, but you can also keep your strength u intact alongside it. Um, but yeah, there's that's always been kind of like in the strength conditioning world like something that um it gets argued a lot because there there is definite value to to training with acceleration because you know your your body you want to be able to have access on demand and you want to be able to train that. Uh but now you know the in between both of those thoughts it's like okay well how do we do that appropriately? >> Well I I thought when you went performance and functionality you were actually going to talk more about um okay so we talked about when you go really fast the risk of injury change of directions and how that can be dangerous. >> The the other thing that's maybe less dangerous but also improper or doesn't end up working the muscles that you're trying to work. For example, I can't tell you how many times I train a client and doing a seated row or a bench press, they don't feel it in the proper muscles due to just kind of repping it out, right? So, you the average person gets into a seated row, especially if you're a a new a new lifter, you watch a trainer or another person perform a seated row and you get in there and you just start rowing away at it, your your biceps end up your arms end up taking and your shoulders end up taking over. >> It's hard to change your recruitment pattern >> fast and and you Exactly. And then you and you ask that person to do that with any sort of speed and tempo and it's like >> they're not going to feel that in their back and their lats at all. And so it's like that or bench press was another very common one. I get somebody under a bench press, they watch somebody else do it and then they just muscle it up and push it off as much weight as they can as fast as they can. And where do they all feel it? Their triceps, their shoulders. They can't even activate their chest. And so there's a side of the tempo and slowing down too that's not just a risk factor of like it's like hey like if the goal of this bench press is for us to work the chest and develop the chest or the goal of the seated row is to work the back then also the slowing down the technique part also makes a huge difference in learning how to activate >> oh for targeted aesthetics that's king like targeted aesthetics would be uh I want to develop this muscle I want to be able to train this part of a muscle even uh depending on the muscle we're talking about. And you need to go slow to do that. Uh especially if you struggle feeling a muscle in an exercise. Like if you don't feel your glutes in a squat, uh moving fast in the squat isn't going to make you feel your glutes more. It's going to make you feel less. >> Yeah. It is interesting though cuz I used to like fight that uh you have to train fast because if you're training and you're just getting strong, it's going to apply to the field. Uh but at the same time I did a full year just anecdotally of of you know just training heavy and and trying to get strong and I did feel significantly slower because there wasn't that added element of acceleration my training. >> Yeah. So someone listening might be like well I'm a typical average person. Uh I'm not on the field. Why would I need to even consider this? Uh and it's because you step off a curb you know you drop something you go to grab it. your kid runs across the street, like you will be uh at some point called upon to move quickly. Uh and you will lose that ability if you don't train it. Even if you're strong, even if you're really strong and you lift weights and you've got good muscle development, >> you will lose that ability. So the question is, well, how do I train that? Do I go do a bunch of complex Olympic lifts? It's like, no, you can do a very basic exercises and do it uh very carefully. Uh so you pick a really light weight because >> lower the load. >> That's it. And the and the idea isn't to feel the muscle, but rather to move uh kind of quickly. I mean, with a client, for example, this would be a good example of that, right? So, everybody's familiar with like jump boxes, right? You jump on a box. I'm going to tell you something right now. The average person that hires a trainer is not ready to jump up on a box. Like the average 40some year old deconditioned person, >> if I have them jump on a box, uh like we're 50/50, they're going to get hurt or not, right? So, >> eating shins. >> So, what we might do is just jump. There is nothing to jump on. We're just going to jump in place. >> Yeah. >> And we're going to practice jumping uh quickly. Um and we're not going to do it to fatigue. I'm going to practice kind of moving quickly in that way. Right. >> What if you never run? Um and like my experience, I went to go sprint and I pulled a hamstring. It was actually a pretty severe pull. What would I do? Well, I would go run at 50% speed at first >> and I'd slowly work my way up to be able to run quickly >> so that my muscles can move fast and not just uh slow. So that performance and functionality piece is and I used to think it was important only for athletes. That's what I used to think. I said, "Well, that's that's not for the average person. Average person just have them strength train, work out, walk >> and they're doing fine." Well, for aesthetics, that's true. >> But when it comes to performance, even the performance you need in everyday life. >> Yeah. >> Some speed is important. A little bit of speed is important in avoiding injury, too. >> Yeah. So, you know, that component, I remember Jod Franco brought that up and it really kind of pointed it back for me. Um, you know, making sure like you're going to experience these things in life. There's going to be like a slippery patch. There's going to be something that's going to require you to stabilize really quickly. And it's like if you lose that ability, you're leaving yourself. >> I slipped on the floor. >> I just did too. >> Like like this was like this this was a while ago. It was like six months ago. my I was I was walking into uh we have like a a big grand room and I'm walking into it and my wife's down the hall and I sl I had socks on and I slipped. Now she saw me go into the room so she thought for sure but by the way I slipped that I bailed. Now, I caught myself by the grace of God. I don't know how I caught myself >> and I remember stopping after I like did this real fast movement to catch myself and I remember thinking for I tore I know I heard something and I didn't but I I felt like I would have heard something because I was so not fast cuz I never trained that way. It was like a wake up call like dude you need to start practicing moving quickly. >> This is so you guys you guys have been in my my garage before. That garage floor is slick. >> Unbelievably slick. >> And it I can't tell you how many times this has already happened to me multiple times where I pull the cars in after they've been washed and then the wet tires get on there and you can't see the floor the way it's designed. Shiny. >> Yeah. Cuz it's shiny and the design in it. So that you can't see the water spots. And I have barely caught myself at least four or five times. And the the last time like I had this like >> is there a camera in there? I'd love to see >> there there is there is >> I'd love to see >> and I've I I've yet to go down knock on wood but I've had this similar like God like how many years until I don't catch myself. You know what I'm saying? Like I really had that thought. I thought like dude I really need to consider because this is exactly how it goes down. It's like something so simple as that and you lose it. Now, thank God I still have enough reaction and explosiveness to gather myself, but there's been quite a few that were really scary and I legs were all spread out and I grabbed and it was just like, dude, if I my reaction time is a fraction slower on that like I'm down and or I'm hurting something really bad. >> Yeah. I mean, and you can you can practice this even I you don't have to get complex. Uh there are great exercises for uh you know, stren strengthening or working on kind of your ability to move quickly, but you could pick basic like you could take a bench press. Let's say you're good at a bench press. you feel stable, you practice it all the time, you train it, you're good at it, and let's say you normally bench press with uh 135 lbs. >> Mhm. >> You could put 70 lbs on the bar and practice uh you know, moving it quickly, uh where you come down and then explode it off your chest. And so that that would that would train that kind of speed. >> Yeah, >> you could do it with a row, you could do with a press, you could do it with a lunge, you could jump in place. Um and all you're doing is training your muscles so that they can move quickly. And that's important. I would argue that the jump box is probably the best and the most foundational of all those though just because or at least from the position I'm coming from of what because the jump box requires the entire body to communicate. That's right. >> Right. So bench press would you could you >> whole triple extension. >> Yes, I agree. And and so >> or jumping even off of a box. >> Right. Right. And so just just that getting everything to fire through from head to toe uh quickly like that and organized >> um I think covers a lot which is so funny. I never thought about that as a trainer like like early days it was like we >> I took it for granted. >> I took it for granted >> cuz I could move when I wanted to. >> There's a lot of exercise like that you're like oh this is the real value of it. Oh yeah. You know. Yeah. For sure. Like cuz it's >> it's simple uh and it's it's a skill but like you're like ah but I'm not trying to like fatigue my client. you know, in these workouts and I kind of abandoned it for a long time, but then you come back and you're like, "Well, let's do it without fatigue and let's let's do this quickly." Yeah. Quickly, and there's value there. >> Yeah. A couple hacks for people listening who aren't familiar with like trying to move quickly or whatever. You know, I just mentioned doing basic exercises, but bands are really good. Bands are really good at trying to move quickly because you don't have a lot of momentum like you will with weights. >> Uh they're very safe. a pool. If you have access to a swimming pool, this is a very safe way to move quickly because if I throw my arm out in the air, I have to also slow it down. But in the pool, the water >> slows it down. Yeah. And it gives you a little bit of resistance. >> Joint impact either. >> Very low. Yeah. So, those are just some some hacks. You know, another thing that they that studies tend to not cover is the novelty effect. Uh, and the reason why they don't is because in order to show how great novelty or something new can affect the body in terms of progress, you have to have a really long study. You know, 16 weeks doesn't cut it. 6 months might not even cut it. You need to have like a year or two years where you're taking people through rep ranges or rep speeds and you can compare this group over here does the same exact rep range for two years. This group over here alternates. And what you'll see, which we've experienced with clients, is >> novelty makes a difference. >> It does. Now, it takes a long time to see what that looks like. Uh, but it does make a difference. And so, even for hypertrophy, I'm going to argue we take out the injury risk because I think that's the big one. But take that out for a second. If you throw in different rep speeds over time, I think you'll build more muscle even if you take out uh the injury risk just because of the novelty. >> Well, didn't you see that when you were doing overhead press? I remember we had you doing some um uh >> like pushes >> like push presses instead. Yeah. And just just that acceleration alone like sparked a new stimul. >> Well, there was two things I got from the push press big time that I helped which I when we talk a lot especially lately we talk a lot about like the isometric component >> was pushing that much weight explosively over my head and then stabilizing it and holding it up there. Well, I got this. That's why I'm like such a big fan of the of the for shoulder development for even my my bodybuilder aesthetic. People, you want to build some shoulders, uh, heavy push presses and then like stabilizing the weight over your head like that were like game changers. >> I'll tell you what, uh, our program maps strong, uh, the reason why that's so popular especially, which is funny, this was totally not predictable. We didn't predict this, but women love Matt Strong because it really develops the >> posterior chain, >> the back and the glutes a lot. So women are like, I love this program. My back and my butt never look better. >> There's speed stuff in there and the work sessions. It's like like high poles and stuff like that. So, >> you know, if you've practiced and you've trained for a while, you've never done that style of training, that novelty effect kicks in, man. Suddenly, you see new development. >> Oh, yeah. You know, great. >> You know, since you're uh kind of bagging on studies a little bit, did you I was bagging on a study this weekend. Did you uh did you see the rant I did on the Instagram? >> No. >> Uh so I I you know the the team has been trying to really encourage me to uh instead of just doing our shooting days that we do where we do content and everything like that. >> Um like hey when you have those Adam those moments where you have something on your mind just like grab the camera and just and then send it to us and then we'll we'll >> we'll decide if it's if it's appropriate. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> We'll clean it up a little bit. Uh so so I said okay. So I was like kind of committed to to them that I would try and do that. So this past weekend uh so something had popped in my head and of course it's because it's something I'm I'm in the middle of doing and um I was up I was up doing fasted cardio and as I'm doing it I'm like thinking about it like oh you know this is so >> no difference for fat loss. The studies show >> and and you know I started thinking about as I'm walking I'm like how funny is this? Here I am doing something that you know the fitness community is for a while now has debunked uh you know the science around that that mechanistically there's nothing happening or magically happening in the body that makes it burn more body fat by doing fasted cardio versus regular cardio and if all things are controlled macros >> versus cardio like you haven't eaten in the morning you do cardio versus you ate breakfast and then did cardio. >> That's right. That's right. >> And the old thought was fasted burns more fat and we did studies like no it doesn't. >> Yes. And so, and so the rant that I kind of went off on is like, you know, you've obviously probably heard that fasted cardio has been debunked and it's it's this and it's that. I said, "Yet every bodybuilder, women's uh women's bikini and men's physique athlete still uses it uh religiously to get ready for a stage and compete at the highest level. So, why is that?" And I was like, "That's because it works, >> but maybe not for the reasons that we've touted for so long." And the things that were going through my mind cuz I'm back into practicing that. And and I would argue I I drop an extra two to 3% body fat by just implementing this one strategy. And the things that I notice are one, uh, if I've decided tomorrow morning I'm getting up to do fasted cardio, I've got to already think about that tonight. >> Yeah. Go to bed early >> cuz I got to go bed I got to go to bed early. Uh, I got to set my alarm an hour early because if I got to go to work and do my thing that I normally do and I'm going to do it before I eat and before work, I'm not getting up an hour. I wasn't getting up an hour. So now I'm up an hour earlier. So right away there's an additional hour that I'm up earlier than I would normally be. And I'm not just up, I'm actually doing something very physical. I'm moving my body. I'm getting blood pumping. >> So what else happens when I do that? Well, I notice also after I do that, the rest of the day I'm far more active. I move faster. I move more often, which ends up being a lot more calories burned throughout the entire day. And not to mention after I've done all that too, the way I am planned for my day eating wise, I also tend to do this. When I do fasted cardio, I've already I'm already kind of going, I tend to delay the first meal already since I did just did that. And so I shorten the eating window. And when you're in a calorie deficit trying to lose body fats, it helps to like it's a couple more hours. I'm not thinking about food because I'm moving or I'm doing something else. All these factors play into a incredible strategy to help leaning out. And yeah, because we've nailed down in a study that if we compare, but it's like in real life, that's not how it works out. >> That's right. Cuz what they do in studies, and this is just how you conduct a study, so I'm not crapping on studies. When you do a study, you control everything you possibly can to isolate the one action to see if it makes a difference. But in real life, all the other things are not controlled. Okay? Okay. So, in other words, another good example is um if you replace your sugary drinks with uh artificially sweetened zerocalorie drinks, you'll lose weight. And you will if you control all the other calories, but in real life, then this never happens. Well, why is that? Because people end up making up the calories >> and other places, right? >> And so, waking up first thing to do cardio, you named a few things that you identified with your behavior. And there's other things that we probably don't even know with behavior that change. If I'm up and I'm working out first thing, my mind is already set to fitness. It's already set to health. It's already >> priorities are there. >> And so in real life, things aren't perfectly controlled. You're not saying to yourself, I'm going to do all the other stuff I do. You change all the other stuff you do. So in practice, it it tends to help. And this is why people tend to tend to use >> I mean, it's a it's like an for me personally, it's a huge difference. Like if I start my day where I roll out of bed at normal time and like today would be a day. I didn't do fast card today. So it's like I move slow until that that third energy drink kicks in and we've had lunch and we done like like really it doesn't start really kicking up till afternoon time when we go on our walk and then I get a workout in and then now I'm like like blood. So when I look at my steps and calories burned for the first part of the day, it's very m and then flip that. I got up an hour earlier and it started moving really early. Like I'm like moving all morning. I'm moving and I'm more productive. And so man, by the by the time noon when I'm just barely kind of getting I've already and then to your point too about >> it's set the tone that I'm like I'm fitnessminded and healthminded right out the gates. So I'm also more likely to make a better food choice because I'm like I already I don't want to why would I want to throw away that extra hour got up early to do that on a bad meal right now some good >> and you also woke up and decided to do something hard and what that does for the dopamine serotonin like reward pathways in the brain >> set you up to do more hard things the rest of the day it actually improves your discipline >> yes >> later in the day and that's what the data shows >> I it's it's so valuable >> that's why it's like it's like go on my phone and scroll social media versus like read a book that like enriches my life, they'll show that makes differences, right, >> for the same reasons, similar reason. >> It's a it's it's a huge difference. And I and I when at the end of the rant, I said, "Listen, I I don't think this is a um a lifestyle thing that you do forever all the time. Uh if you're not a morning person, and that's not like I get it cuz I'm not, you know, but hey, you're you're getting ready for a trip in a couple weeks and you're you're trying to lean out a little bit." It's like it's a don't change anything else. Get up an hour earlier. Do that for the next two to three weeks before you get there. I guarantee you'll see a 2 to 3% drop in body fat by simply doing that. And it's because of all those other cascading effects that that are not that we control in a study, >> but that happens behaviorally to us, which is extremely valuable when you're talking about creating good habits and behaviors for the client. And so such a fan of it. And so anyways, I posted that today or yesterday. It was cuz it was all right. >> I I just I just looked up some some really interesting market data um on the electrolyte market >> and how much it's changed in like the last eight years. You guys are going to be blown away. >> Really? >> How much has changed? I'll pull this up. >> Well, I mean, I have a pretty good guess considering that I didn't even know an electrolyte brand just 10 years ago. >> I'm going to I'm going to say this right now. 100% Gatorade. Yeah, I like that. So 100% the the the powder >> like the the powder you add to water electrolyte market cuz Gatorade's been around for a long time and that would be included in the electrolyte market or whatever >> and that's been pretty stable. Okay. But the like I add this powder to my water to get electrolyte that market >> element uh first off uh started it off and are responsible uh in my strong opinion for the growth of it. Trip off this. So in 10 in the last 10 years ago basically didn't exist. Basically didn't exist. It has gone up several hundred%. Element alone. So element alone in 2020 was $7 million. 2023 $26 million. Element alone. >> Now Element. So we work with Element and here's why they did here's why they had such a big impact. electrolyte powders or drinks I should say were number one everybody was afraid of sodium. Sodium is a bad guy. You need to have low sodium. Don't have too much sodium. >> The only people that were consciously trying to add sodium 10, 15, 20 years ago uh to their diets were uh endurance runners. Why? Because they experienced the effects of not having enough sodium. So, if you if you're a runner, cyclist, like you do any kind of endurance sport, and you weren't consciously adding a lot of sodium to your diet, you experienced this. You know this, you pushed yourself and you just crashed. And somebody smart said, "Dude, you need to add some salt >> uh to your diet and to your water and watch what happens." So, they were really the only ones that were doing it. And Element came out and said, "Hey, we have an electrolyte powder. You add your water, thousand milligrams of sodium." Very brave. This would be like me coming out with a saturated fat supplement. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> like they came out with a supplement like here's 30 g of >> stigma alone it was like wow that's that's surprising but yeah obviously it's effective >> millig of sodium. So when we when they first sent us the box years ago, I kind of dismissed them until I looked at the box and went, "Whoa, >> yeah, >> these guys know what they're doing and they're not afraid to to let's see what happens." >> And they crushed. And so that market has exploded because people number two reasons. Number one, if you eat a whole food-based diet, you adding sodium probably will make a difference. If you're low carb, for sure it makes a difference. If you work out really hard, sweat a lot, it does make a big difference. You can tell right away. Okay. And then here's the second reason reason. Sodium is one of the main components or say I'll say salt and palatability. >> And so here they made a drink that is not artificially sweetened with no sugar. >> Normally when you drink a flavored drink that's flavored with stevia. >> It's not it's not that good. It just is like you drink it you're like it's all right. I prefer sucralose or aspartame. >> Uh you know because it just tastes better you know sevia. Eh, but you throw 1,000 milligs of sodium on top of it and element tastes, >> it's as palatable as soda. >> Yeah. >> And so they just crushed and ran with it. And they literally created this market that has exploded several hundred%. >> It's so good. >> Isn't that wild? >> Oh, it's so good. >> How big of a growth that they saw. >> I mean, all of my friend all my friends, they they drink it. They just Yeah. They like it. I mean, that I think that's where they hit it. They hit the obviously the point you're making with the science and and the first people to actually put out what is effective. >> But I mean it's cuz it tastes good. >> That's right. Yeah. >> If you make a supplement that works that also tastes good that works that's good for you and it tastes good. It's just like a Cuz I have plenty of people in my family that are not like hardcore fitness people and don't necessarily need an extra thousand milligrams of sodium because they're not but they like that it tastes good. But they love a taste and it's a it's a they know that it's a a better choice than drinking some soda or some some other crap. >> Well, I I figure they're doing good cuz that every time I'll see one of our partners all of a sudden like on mainstream TV is a a commercial, I'm like, "Oh, wow. Yeah, I've seen them and I've seen Vory." Yeah, theirs. It was cool cuz uh it reminded me I'm already in the thought process of going to this metal festival and there was this guy like welding and doing this crazy stuff at this place that's called Sloth Furnace Fest. It's like these like huge old uh furnace like um structures and whatever. But like anyways, I I it got me all excited to go to this festival. I'm like my one time a year where I just like let it all out. >> That's coming, isn't it? When? >> It's in October. >> Last time you went in the mosh pit, didn't you lay someone out? >> Yeah. >> You're going to do that again, aren't you? >> Well, it depends. I mean, the guy kind of I don't know. He kind of provoked it. So, >> is your group Is your whole group going again? Cuz I think I heard you talking about some of your guys you some of the guys aren't coming through. >> No, no, it's only going to be me and one of my friends like the other guys had to kind of drop off, which is a bummer. But, and that's why I was going back and forth of going or not. But I'm like, dude, when you guys have one thing all year you look forward to and you're like, this is kind of like my thing. Nobody else's gets it. Like this is totally like >> nobody else understands it. Nobody like, you know, I can't like really describe it in words for anybody else to like, you know, feel that. But this is like it's like a really small community and then you you you know, you just get to like let all your freaking like rage out at once. It's great. And it's safe, >> you know? That's a it's hard uh you know we S talks about the the research around um how important it is for men to have other relationships and things like that, right? >> But it's it's tough to get a group of dudes that are all in their 40s all together and organized like it's like it's a it's a big deal, dude. It's not >> especially a trip. >> Yeah. To fly somewhere. Yeah. >> That's a big ask. and they and the other guys to their credit they have like four kids you know it's like so me and my other friend we have two kids so it's a little easier to maneuver uh but what's cool I've I've met quite a few people along the way now where one of my other friends I did a podcast so he's going to be there uh so it'll be cool he's doing the podcast like behind the scenes uh with some of the bands and stuff so it'll be cool to kind of see all >> that that is cool do you notice just cuz your your boys now are old enough to where they can watch themselves was there a major uptick for you and Courtney in getting away and doing stuff and compared to the previous like do you do did you notice a huge difference or has it been the same like from us trying to do our own kind of >> Yeah. just Yeah. period. Like you be able to get I mean when you when the kids are >> when they're little it's hard. >> Yeah. It's hard you know. So it's and >> it can also be hard though when they're teenagers and they have all kinds of things. >> Well that's why I'm asking that's why I'm asking that cuz I think there's this assumption that oh they get to a certain age and then now you have all this freedom as a parent and it's like still in the house. Yeah, cuz we're constantly like shuttling them. I mean, Ethan getting his license is going to help a lot big time, >> you know, and so we're looking forward to that, but it's >> we're still very involved. And so, yeah, I haven't I've had maybe few opportunities still to like plan something where I could like go do something with my buddies. >> The hardest part about the the the kids getting their license though nowadays is that they're not allowed to drive with it. Like, so like you can't like when I as soon as I was 16 and even I had friends, so I'm young, right? So I had friends that were older older than I was. And so by my I think end of freshman or sophomore year, I think the end of freshman Eric got his. So it was like end of freshman to sophomore year, I already had friends that had license. And so picking me up, taking me to school if I didn't go. So like my parents would be like, "Call your friend, call your buddy." Yeah. you know, so like I like quickly I could get around even when I didn't even have my license because but kids now they can't even they can't drive until they're what 8 21 or >> they can't drive your friends around until you're 18. >> Is it I think it's 21 maybe maybe >> kids get around that though. They're not like following that. >> They don't but I I'm pretty strict and like Courtney but like you know when they hang out after school and they'll get rides from their friend they just end up doing it and you're like >> it's for safety obviously. I get why they do that. I mean, when I if I think back to driving with my friends in the car at 16, >> that's when we drove the dumbest deal of dumpies. >> You got your buddies. Yeah. That's like most dangerous time to to be driving. I speaking of like relationships and stuff, I'm reading this book >> with my wife. It's an old book. I didn't realize it's been around for a while. It's called Love and Respect. Have you guys read this book? >> Uhuh. >> So, it's really good. It's for marriage. It is based off of uh the book of Ephesians, Ephesians 5, but it's totally it's totally human psyche, male and female psyche. I mean, it matches up with the data as well, but it talks about how what women need and desire the most is to feel loved. And what men desire and need the most is to feel respected. >> Yeah. >> And it talks about unconditional respect and unconditional love. And what's interesting about that, and the author talks about this, if I say, uh, you know, yeah, you you should show your wife unconditional love, nobody bats an eye. But if you say, hey, you need to display to your husband unconditional respect. People are like, he needs to earn it. >> Yeah. >> It's like, well, he says this in the book, too. Like, imagine if they said the reverse, like, well, actually, you need to earn his love. Everybody be like, no. He's like, it doesn't mean that you don't criticize or you don't do certain things or talk about things that are unloving, but you say them, you display them in a way that's loving or in a way that's respectful. And it's a really interesting book and it makes a lot of sense. And it talks he he mentions this, he calls it the crazy cycle >> where let's say a wife brings something to her husband and he perceives it as being uh disrespectful. So now he withdraws. She doesn't want to show her love. Now she feels he's not loving. So now she disrespects him and then he shows her less and it goes and it spins out of control. >> And he talks about how to interrupt that and what to do. >> And it's really good. It's a and it totally speaks like I'm listening to what he's saying about men and I'm like, "Oh my god, that is 100% true. That is 100% true." Uh and now the part for my wife, she agrees. Like that's that's totally true. It's a really good book. >> Well, that this reminds me of our interview that we had with Adam Lane Smith. That's why it's one of my favorite interviews to recommend to couples was it was when I think back to the all the different people we've had and the things that like I've taken into our marriage and stuff and the ability for me to well obviously having him say it was was super helpful, right? and for her to listen to the podcast with me and that kind of click was that >> uh we I don't need need respect and she needs love and so that when we get in these situations where it's just like I'm the other person is thinking that that's all you need or what you're seeking it's like that's not what I'm seeking at all and like >> he so he uses this great example because he says that we we basically have different filters. We hear things differently. We communicate things differently and we you know what we're trying to communicate comes across the wrong way. He uses this great example. I thought it was hilarious. If a woman says, "I have nothing to wear," what she means is, "I have nothing new." When a man says, "I have nothing to wear," it's cuz he's got nothing clean. >> Yeah. >> And it's just an example of like the way we'll communicate things, >> that and how different It's a silly one, obviously. >> Yeah. >> But I mean, what he was saying in there was so uh absolutely true. And I think if you're >> if you're trying to come together to understand that about each other and to present yourself, you know, in that way, you'll get away you'll get along. um so much better and so much more effectively. But it is true like um you know it says in and again it's biblical but again it's backed by you can look at the data to support this. >> Um it's uh it's it's it's so true like if when men communicate to each other um there's a code of respect there because there's always a threat of violence or whatever. So if you and I are talking and you withdraw, you're actually doing the honorable thing cuz you're like, "Okay, I got I'm going to walk out cuz I know where this is going to go." >> So that's kind of like a default. >> When you do that with your wife, she's like, "He is so unloving. He doesn't care. He just shut down." >> When he's actually doing kind of this this default thing, which I think is really interesting. >> No, no, >> it's such an interesting It was such It's such a good book. >> Well, I remember we uh this was guy when we lived out in Marina and this was right around the first time we had Adam Wayne Smith. of the one of the challenges that Katrina had in our relationship was that she loved uh coming home and debating or challenging direction in the company, right? like or something that you know I I would just do this this is what we're doing what something like that and she'd be like well why or and she would push back and do that and early on in the relationship we would we go back and forth a lot as as things progressed and the business got bigger and there was so many different moving parts is just like for me it became like a speed thing and I remember that was one of the first big hurdles that we had with working together like that was I told her I was like man I just I just need you to respect ffect my decision. Like we've I I I think I've proven to you that I know what I'm doing right by now. And she's like, "It's not about that at all." She goes, "I love this part of our relationship. I love that. I see how your brain works and I see how this and and I want and so that's really" And so there was this huge disconnect. She suddenly >> She thinks she's being loving. >> Yes. Meanwhile, you feel disrespect and I feel disrespected and it's like, "Dude, how much more I got to prove that I know what I'm doing." >> You know what's interesting? You're challenging me. You know what's interesting about that, Adam? And I'm I'm sure I know the answer, but if she uh displays respect when she's coming to you about something, she has more influence. >> So if it wasn't so if it wasn't for Adam Lane Smith, I don't know if I would have had the proper way to communicate it and and and get through that and we had and so it really helped me. I was like, listen, >> I don't want to take that from you that because you like that. I love that you like that and I respect your this and that, >> but how you say it and open it makes all the world of difference. Like if you said it in a way where it's like, "Oh, interesting. What why are you thinking that way or what's your thoughts on that?" Like, "Yeah." Like, cuz cuz then you're giving me the respect that you don't aren't disagreeing with my decision in the in the business or what like that, but you're curious because you say you want to see how my brain works. You see, and I'll map it all out to you. It's not like I just make a decision will willy-nilly. It's like I've already thought miles ahead and I just don't want to have to argue over something like that. I'm like, so if you just approach it with that curiosity >> of, oh, that's interesting. I I would have never thought you were going to do that. What What makes you think that's a good idea for the business? And you ask me like that. I would love to have that. >> You should have more influence. You know what's funny about that? It's like what someone listening to that right now is like, well, you just got to grow up and be more mature. Like don't be so child. And it's like like and and by the way, that it can also be done on the reverse. Well, don't be so sensitive, right? >> Like you get your feelings hurt so much. You know, I love you. And so it's like >> it's denying that we're different. It's like we're different and communicate with each other in ways that the other person needs. You know what it says in the Bible which is funny. So >> again, it's biblical. So I'm going to go back to that. >> The word that it uses for husbands when it comes to loving their wives because it says we need to love them in understanding way. But the word it uses in Greek is agape. So there's four there's different words they use for love in the Greek language. We just use love in the English language to mean like five. I I love pizza. I love my kids. I love my partners. Obviously, it's all different, >> but we just use one word. In the Greek language, they used different words. So, agape is sacrificial love. >> Uh, felio, I think, is the kind of love you have for your child and a friend. It only tells husbands to have agape love. It doesn't say that to wives. You're like, why wouldn't it say it to wives? I think they're built for that sacrif they're built that. It's automatic. It's automatic for a good woman. She loves herself so sacrificially for her kids >> and for her family. what it tells a a wife is to respect because it's not automatic. It's not an auto automatic thing. And for a husband, agape is not automatic. We're commanded to display that. And he makes that case and I'm listening to it. I'm like, I think this is right. >> You know, take take the the biblical stuff out. And I think we've done such a disservice uh as Americans to to make love as this all-encompassing word. I mean, I remember as a young as a as a young kid >> uh assuming that that love was this feeling that was going to overcome me and that's how I was going to know the that's the one to marry. Like that like literally the way what Disney has presented to all of us. Yeah. Like oh it's love at first sight. It's oh this feeling that you get and it's like no it's an action and something I have to choose to do that >> sometimes it's a feeling >> that's that was exactly it can be but the one that you're going to decide to marry for the rest of your life that's a choice that you make and that's something that you choose to do every single day. It's not this feeling that you decide that you wake up and all a sudden like, "Oh, I don't feel it anymore. Therefore, like, oh, we're not supposed we're not we're not supposed to be married anymore." It's like we did such a disservice I feel like of making it all this one word versus having definitions of all the different types like that because I'm honest like it was years. I was in into my mid to late 20s before that clicked for me that that's not what a a loving marriage looks like. It's not this, oh, I'm just supposed to have this overwhelming feeling and that's the one and then it's it's perfect the rest of our lives. It's like, no, that's not it. >> I mean, yeah, me and Courtney, it's like hers is it's love and safety. It's like what, you know, I can provide so she feels that sense of security, safety, and like you know, health and everybody's healthy and accounted for. Uh, and for me, it's always been, you know, respect, honor, and trust, you know, and so it's >> and and we've learned how to really nail that down and figure out like we are different. We have these roles. We have like I'm stretching, she's pulling like and we're great balance, but it took a long time to get there in that understanding. Yeah. You want to get uh uh you want to get your husband to drag himself across glass for you. You tell them, "You're my warrior. You go out there and kill it." And I'm telling you right now, most good men will hear that and they'll be like, "Yeah, >> I'm going to do whatever I can for this family." Even saying that now, I guarantee men are listening and they're going, "Yes." And it's just the way we're made. And it's such it's so crazy that we try so hard to go against that and to twist things to say, "No, no, you got to understand things the way I do, >> and if you don't, it's because you're X, Y, and Z." And it's like, this is just not how we're made. >> And it's like, we'll work so much better when we understand this >> about each other. And it is a choice. It totally is a choice. Anyway, I uh we we got um so I meet with our customer service team weekly and they often will tell me what people are writing in and requesting in terms of things to cover. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And so we do a lot of episodes on nutrition, you know, protein intake, macros, that kind of stuff. And so we've had vegans write in and say, "Can you do a whole episode on uh you know, the challenges with nutrition for vegans and what vegans need to do and this and that?" And maybe we'll do that uh at some point, but I I I want to just kind of cover a little bit here, which is that vegans, it's hard to eat a healthy diet that supports, you know, your goals, performance, muscle growth, let's say fat loss, endurance, all those things. It that's hard. It's already hard. It's >> very challenging. >> Uh going vegan makes it harder. This is just a fact. It just makes it harder. Not saying don't be a vegan. If you have your reasons for it, you can do it. It requires a lot more planning than not being vegan. So, when I'm not vegan, if I stick to whole natural foods, uh, and I hit my protein targets, unless I have some weird, uh, you know, polymorphism, uh, I don't need to plan that much more. If I'm not like crazy overeating, it's whole natural foods, protein, I'm lifting weights, working out, like I'm going to do pretty good. If you cut out uh animal sources of uh calories, you place yourself at higher risk for nutrient deficiencies. The data is very clear on this. Uh and it's much harder to hit your protein targets. It just is the amount of volume of vegan foods, whole natural foods to hit what is cons what the data has shown to be for most people. There's always individual variants. For optimal protein intake for muscle growth and fat loss and performance is really hard. You got to eat a lot of food. It takes up a it's like a big bowl of all kinds of different things and then you're eating tons of other things, fibers and carbohydrates and stuff like that. And so what I'll tell vegans is this. Uh supplements are not required, but for vegans, uh it's not required, but it's almost required. So in my I've trained a lot of vegans. I've trained a lot of like hardcore vegans and uh we had to use supplements and we had to use protein powders in particular uh in order to really optimize their progress. Doing it without protein powders in my experience uh was all but impossible. So it was like you know and typically they would add like 100 grams of protein uh from a vegan >> for me it was always impossible unless you didn't have building muscle goals. >> If you had goals to build muscle >> Yeah. All my clients did. So >> yeah, >> that's why it was impossible. And the reason why I say that cuz there's some I was smiling as you were saying this because there's >> there's like three people out of the millions of people that listen that always go like I don't know what you're talking about. It's so easy. >> Yeah, I know. I have no problem with it. It's like >> good for you. But you know, most people is going to >> most people it's it's ch I mean mo no uh restrictive diet is challenging for most people to get their protein in on a regular basis. Mhm. >> All of them. You you pull out uh animal products that becomes extremely difficult. Extremely difficult. >> Yep. 100%. So, you know, uh or I I'll say this cuz we work with them. We've been working with them for years. Organifi makes the best plant-based protein I've ever used. It's the best. It's the easiest to digest. It tastes the best. >> They combine different sources. >> The biggest factor, right? The the digestion. I mean, like if you're doing the whole foods things, great. But like, you know, on the vegan diet, like if you're going for protein sources, like how much can you really ingest that's not going to give you gastral distress? 100%. >> I mean, that and taste cuz I think it's hard to make that taste good. >> Oh, vegan proteins are the worst tasting protein. >> They are always. >> So, it's Organifi taste good for any protein. It's not just good for a vegan protein. It's good for any protein. They've done a phenomenal job. and they mix different vegan sources to give you a better amino acid profile. Uh, and you may hear this, uh, you might have heard this before as a vegan, like combine protein sources to make a quote unquote complete protein. What they're really saying is, uh, there are limiting amino acids for something called muscle protein synthesis. So, this is where muscle protein synthesis is that how we measure muscle growth. And if you're low in certain key amino acids, especially leucine, you can have a lot of protein, but the leucine will limit uh the protein synthesis that can happen. And so combining different sources of uh vegan uh proteins, like Organifi has done this really well, you'll have a good amino acid profile. So it's the best diverse. Yeah. >> Yeah. So if you're a vegan and you're trying to first of all, protein powders are valuable for most people anyway because it's hard to hit those optimal, you know, amounts of protein. But if you're a vegan, like Organifi is the best hands down. I've used lots of vegan proteins because I couldn't have dairy for a long time. So vegan was what I went with and Organifi kills it by far. It's the best one. >> You guys excited about um Friday's pickle ball tournament? >> I'm not going to I'm not pickle ball yet. >> Yes, you are, bro. Yes, >> bro. You were built for pickle ball. >> I'm serious. You are built for pickle ball. Tell me more. >> You will be You'll be hella good. You're like Mr. Carnival. It's closest thing to a carnival game. It's the closest sport to a carnival game as you can think of. Yes. >> Okay. >> It is totally like that. >> You're getting me there, dude. >> No, it is very much so there. You don't got to move laterally very much. You know, it's it's like you don't think do anything explosive, dude. You'll be fine. >> It is carnival game all day. >> Are So, who's who So, Kyle apparently is really good. >> He's like the best one, right? I think Cole's probably good. >> Yeah. Cole's going to Cole's our our >> He's Captain America. Yeah, he is our little >> It's all It still has to be better than Remember when we used to play with the trainers like softball. That was embarrassing. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I was actually really let down because everybody's in great shape. Uh but we're terrible athletes. >> Yeah. We're gym athletes. Totally different than >> usually. There's a few in the >> You didn't play Did you play on my team or where we where I got where I got crushed by the the junior college teams? Did you play on that team? You didn't play on that team? >> I didn't play on that team. >> Have you heard me tell the story >> where we It was the first time. So, I'm I'm only I've only been living in the Bay Area at this point. I don't know, maybe I've got to be less than five years, probably around year three of living in the Bay Area. So, I'm like I'm I'm new to to living in a big city. I come from like small town, right? And uh you know my I got I still at this time I'm still connected to all my buddies I grew up with and um I got some of them that live this direction and I got some new friends over here. They're all like kind of ex-athlete guys and stuff and trainers and people like that or connecting all fit all fit all consider ourselves athletic um playing playing pick playing in our first men's softball league and I remember when we're signing up I forget the way they they rank them you know but just say let's just say for easy people it's just like A B C D A being the best or whatever and uh we're like um well let's it's our first year so let's not put us at A, you know, so like let's like let's put us at B, but listen, when we play our we're talking about how we play the first game, like let's not go out there and just destroy everybody. So we like So we, you know, we get kicked out of that league or like that. Like let's take it easy or whatever. >> We were getting so [ __ ] up. It was like it was the first or second inning. It was like right away. And it's like 13-0. >> And I remember like huddling everybody like, "Hey, you guys, we could start playing now." And everyone's like, "I am. I am. We got we got absolutely destroyed and then we thought, man, maybe we just walked into a buzz saw as the first game and and it's like maybe that's maybe that's going to be the champion team and we got to we got to get knocked this dust off. We get the second game and we end up playing uh at that time it was I forget what the the junior college is over here. Uh West West. Yeah, West Valley. Uh the the junior college baseball team is playing, you know, on like for fun. >> For funsies. >> Oh, yeah. And they're up like 21 zero on us. The team and they're like talking [ __ ] to each other, having fun. The guys are all getting up and they're batting oppo. Every guy's Every guy's batting oppo on purpose. You know, still hitting home runs on us. It was like, oh, oh, it was so embarrassing, dude. I've never been so embarrassed. >> Such a nice humbling moment. >> Oh, dude. Such a humbling moment. Well, all act like don't play too good. You can't even can't even score. >> Hey, hey, I I got I got a I got a new twist to the to the AI conspiracy. >> Oh god. What's next? What's next? >> So So did you see that? Uh >> the anthropic guy stepped down. >> Anthropic Open AI CEOs, both of them came out like we need to pause. We need to slow things down. >> Yeah, we're not going to go public now. >> They're going to p I think they're going to delay the IPO. >> The IPO. >> Uh so everybody's like this is too dangerous. Like we got to be careful type of deal. Then I heard I heard an alternate uh presentation of this and I thought, >> am I going to like it? >> You're going to love this. >> Oh, good. >> You're going to love this. >> Come on, let's go. >> And I know this for a fact. This is what companies do in emerging markets. They always do this. The leading companies in an emerging market will come out, do something incredible, and they will then work with the government to regulate the hell out of the market to prevent anybody from competing. >> Okay? And so I think what they're trying to do >> in the >> what they're what they're doing is because >> so they can block everybody else. >> They're trying to get everybody scared enough to be like, "Please regulate this into oblivion." >> The CEOs of this company will love it because they're the help. They'll help write the regulation, making it very difficult for competitors. >> Average person is going to be like, "Yes, please." Uh cuz we're scared. and um and that and and then the other part of that is that they're not making as much money as they say they are. And so they this will help them, you know, by getting that government support type of >> deal. I'm sold on that. I'm so sold on that. That's that's so you know, you know what's not believable to me is when I see these videos of the robot doing your laundry, right? And and we're all afraid it's going to kill us. It's like this robot can't fold laundry a t-shirt faster than freaking 30 minutes. And you guys think it's going to destroy all of us? like get out of here. >> Well, so here's why this supports my earlier theory. If they want hardcore regulatory capture, >> a rogue AI that turns down that shuts off media event >> that gets us all scared. >> I think that's a incredible conspiracy theory and probably not a conspiracy theory. Absolutely. The plan because historically that's what all these companies do >> that you there it's first to get there and then the first >> Hey guys, we I know we need to we need to let's work with the government. We need to make this safer. Yes. Now it's impossible. >> By the way, that that is the that's the oldest game in every book. Like it's not just AI technology, fearongering. It's like you see this in hair salons. You see this they were trying to do it in the personal training side where they were trying to get all the minimum you had that certification to do. Remember, >> it's always every industry, >> you know, and it's always the person who's already established and got their business up and running and making tons of money, and they want to be the ones that help come in to help everybody and make sure it's safe and done well. It's like, get out of here. >> Yeah. Cuz the China came out and said, "This is fear-mongering. We're not going to slow down. You guys are totally, you know, trying to fearonger everybody." I just think in uh what's his name? David Saxs did this great post on it and he said, "You know, if you're making a product that you think will kill 10 people, you stop cuz you know you're going to get sued out of existence or you don't want to be responsible, let alone 10 million people." >> Yeah. >> So, if you think it's dangerous, just stop. >> Yeah. >> You need you don't need to go to the government to pass these laws that make everybody >> sure >> stop unless what you're trying to do >> is be the big dog and make sure nobody else can compete, you know, type of deal. I think all the that's why I've been say I mean and again and back to my point is is all of the conversation and all this just keeps the at the top of the news and that's all we're talking about right now and that's where the money is flowing and that's and I think the the combination of that with what you're saying makes total sense to me and it's not that we're I'm telling you guys right now it's going to be the >> this is going to be the biggest uh and again I'm going to get hate for this because it would be like me saying at the beginning of the.com era that It's going to be this biggest letdown of what's going to happen and and everybody will be like well look what do is of course >> but they don't remember the old bubble. >> Yeah exactly and that we are in that same thing and it's it is going to change the way we do things for the next 20 30 years >> but it's way overhyped >> but yeah it's way overhyped and probably looks nothing like what you all think it looks like. >> It probably looks totally different. >> Well it's interesting that video you sent me where they're talking about the the AI agents and cloning themselves. Yeah, they clone themselves, but it's self-regulatory still. >> So, it's like, you know, they they were like reporting on the other agents so that way they could compete and so they have like a cycle where um you know, after a few months it's like they either they either stay and they clone them or they delete them. And so it's like this this kind of like natural uh competition amongst them anyways where it thins it out. >> Well, in that particular which I thought was well made. It was a really cool like movie that someone made. That was really cool. But the the one part that I'm like, "Okay, I don't understand essentially what happened was this guy uh took all these agents and said, "Hey, uh at the end of the day, whoever makes the least amount of money, I'm going to cut 40% of you get deleted and then whoever does the best, I'm going to clone you and we're going to continue down this path." And so what it turns into are eventually AIs, you know, shutting each other down and and figuring out that lying makes them more money and then eventually creating their own countries and fighting with each other. But I'm like, wouldn't they just all, hey, let's all work together? Like, if they're that logical, why would they create a war? Why wouldn't they collaborate and and expand? >> Yeah. So, that that part uh >> I also don't I also I've seen a lot of creators online post these these videos of I programmed this thing to make me all this money and it just sits and I've yet to meet somebody who's doing that. And I feel like if someone would figure that out, the scalability with AI should be infinite. And so we should have these overnight billionaires popping up all over the place. If you could program an AI to work the stock market to do all the things that these these creators are claiming that they they've done, >> then why don't we have all these because it's it's infinite the scalability of it. What what's to stop you if you have one agent? What's to stop you from having a thousand agents, thousand agents making $1,000? I mean it's just it's >> what we're really in is a is a cold war. We're really in an AI cold war uh between, you know, major countries on who can get there faster, who can make the better one. Uh the the you know, you guys remember the hugging face uh debacle or whatever happened where where the AI agent >> consumers three see right through all this stuff though. That's the thing. Like it's like this is fluff. Like you're selling me you're going to have your agent like like buy a bunch of stuff off of Alibaba and then try and reflip it and do like you know it's it's all just garbage and people people aren't interested in garbage, dude. like it's so it's it's already kind of filtering itself out. >> Well, the the hacking potential is interesting to me, but I then I guess the the check and balance would be the other countries have AIs that would combat it. So, >> I don't know. I think it's it's interesting. It's powerful, which makes it scary. Do I trust it more? This is the real question and we'll just look like historically. Is it better that the government controls it or is it better that the market controls it? No. Historically, markets probably safer. Not saying it's perfect. >> Yeah. >> But the governments don't really have the best uh track record of controlling very powerful. >> Is it ever good that the government controls it? Is that ever? >> I mean, there's I think some regulations are important. Uh but >> it's like factory safety protocols maybe. But >> I don't know. Like is it better that they that they're like, "Hey guys, we're going to make it safe. We'll control all of it." Right? >> Like wait a minute. >> I don't know if I trust you guys. >> It's been a lot of [ __ ] though. So, I'm definitely not on that camp. >> It is interesting. So, just fun to watch and see what happens. >> Hey, we just released a new maps workout program called maps, abs, and butt. Now, it is a full body workout program, but the emphasis, 90% of the training volume is to target the abs and the butt. You want a nice round butt, you want abs that show, this is the program for you. And because it's brand new, it's 40% off. So you can get it for 40% off. We're also going to throw in another free MAPS workout program, Muscle Mommy 15 or Muscle Mommy. We're also going to throw in more stuff. We're going to throw in the butt building diet guide and a supplement guide. So you get all that free stuff plus 40% off this brand new maps program. Go to mapsabsandbutt.com and then use the code launch. Back to the show. Our first caller is Matildi from Singapore. >> Matilda, welcome back. >> Hey. Hey. >> How are you guys? >> Good. How are you doing? >> Good. >> Good. Good. So, it turns out you were right. I got my period exactly one month after I talked to you. So, yeah, very happy. And I got it regularly ever since. So, very, very happy. Yeah. >> Success. Good job. >> Thank you. Um, yeah, I just have two questions from now. Uh I'm still eating roughly about 2700 calories and I keep gaining weight quite quickly. I gain about one pound a week. Um so how would you recommend to reverse back from there and get off tracking calories because I know that one of my bad habits is to undereat. So tracking is actually good for me in some circumstances to make sure I'm eating enough but I don't want to do it for ever. So yeah, first question about >> well let's back up for a second. So when you started on this uh this path of trying to regain your period uh one of the things you did was increase your calories and reduce like stressful exercise stressful exercise. What was your weight when you started that journey and then where was your weight when your period came back? Uh, so my weight I think was about 53 kilos when I started and I ended up at 63. So I gained 10 kilos. >> Okay. So 22 lbs. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And that's when the period came back was when you you got to that weight. Okay. Um All right. So what I would say and you're still seeing weight gain from when you got your period back? >> Yes. >> It's one pound. I think you cut out one pound >> per week. >> Per week. >> Uh approximately. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. So, I think we're okay to scale back on the calories. >> Just a little though, cuz even one pound, if you're strength, she's strength training still, too. I mean, >> are you That's what I was going to ask you. How is your strength uh any changes in the gym? Do you feel like you got stronger consist? >> I'm getting stronger. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I would barely pull back down to 2500 calories. >> Maybe 2500 calories and that's it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then when you feel like you want to stop tracking, the key for people who undereat is to eat on a schedule. >> Okay. So, so when I've worked with people who tend to move towards undereating and track to make sure that they eat enough, what we've done in the past, it's been somewhat successful because sometimes we got to go back and forth, is they just say, "Okay, you're going to eat on a schedule. I'm you're going to have four meals a day. You're going to make sure you have your proteins. We're not going to go super lean. >> You're going to have some carbohydrates." And so that schedule typically kept them on track. But if you want to bring your calories down by two 300, that'd be totally fine by now. Definitely don't go too far down because we just Okay, good. We just got our period back. >> Especially if you're seeing strength gains because there's a good possibility that and I when I'm trying to build muscle on somebody, I'm targeting about a pound a week on the scale is is a nice Yeah. So, so that's a good Now, if you were gaining a pound a week and you weren't getting stronger, then maybe I would be more concerned about backing off a little bit. But, I mean, there's a good chance that, you know, half of that pound is muscle. And so if you're putting a half a pound of muscle, even a half pound of body fat on ratio, it's not bad at all. So I wouldn't want to cut back too much. 2500 calories is the lowest I probably want to go where you're at right now. >> Yeah. And how tall are you, Matilda? >> I'm 1770 cm. I'm not sure what it's >> How many feet is that, Doug? Do you know how to uh 170 170 centimeters? >> 9 ft tall. >> No, I think maybe roughly six or something like that, but I'll I'll give you a number. Yeah, give me the number here because I cuz I I I did your weight in pounds cuz I'm not too familiar with kilos. Uh Adam used to work with kilos, but I'm not the guy that So, I think 138 >> 56 is gram. >> Okay. So, you're >> 56 138 pounds. Your body weight is is is not only perfectly fine, but you could probably still gain some weight. >> Actually, 5'7. >> 5'7. >> Yeah, you could still gain especially if you're strength training, you could probably still gain some weight. a good strong kind of athletic build uh at your height, you know, could get up as like 145. >> Oh, Katrina walks around at 150, 155. She's 5'8. >> Yeah. So, I wouldn't worry too much about the weight gain right now. I think that's kind of what your body needs. >> You're in a good place. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You're kicking butt. >> Makes sense. Okay. >> And the second question is more about programming because I did maps 15 two times in a row now. Uh, so I was wondering what you think about upper lower for me or is that too much volume or is there any >> If I If I move you up in volume, I would go to PPL, not upper lower. >> Yeah. >> PPL first before upper lower. >> Yeah. So, let's let's do this then. Okay. If you want to bring your calories down, stay with MAPS 15. >> Good call. >> If you want to keep if you keep your calories at 2700, then I'll let you do PPL. >> There you go. >> Okay. >> So, what do you want to do? Uh, I think I'll stay at the calories I'm at and try a new program. >> All right, cool. >> We'll send you PPO. I like that. I like that. Right. >> Beautiful. Good job. Yeah, you'll love this. Okay. Thank you so much. >> And by the way, too, that that increased volume with the calories, a one pound gain a week, as long as you're getting stronger, is totally good. Is a good is a good thing. You're probably building muscle. >> Yeah, you're crushing. >> Okay, cool. >> Great. >> Great job. >> Thank you so much. >> Good job. >> Thank you. >> Bye. as an early trainer, as a younger trainer, uh I had no idea, you know, about, you know, helping when we get her period back or whatever. I never really dealt with it. I don't think anybody brought it to me. >> Uh later on, um I had some female athletes and then this kind of came on the radar a little bit. >> And then I worked with somebody who I learned a lot from um and I owe a lot to her, but she was really really wellversed on hormone health and all and and this became a topic. Um, and then from then on I realized, wow, this is a really uh important signal. Like when a woman woman loses her period, Yeah. and she's young, like that's like a big red flag. There's some things we need to work on and figure out. And so since that happened, I've worked with several female clients at helping them regain their period. And uh sometimes it takes longer than others. Uh but it's pretty consistent. It's typically like reverse diet, gain weight, reduce volume, reduce stress, and then typically like clockwork for the most part. U you'll see it come back and their hormone health comes back. >> I' I'd say you see this sometimes even uh or not sometimes you very common too where you see this where somebody is challenged with getting pregnant. >> Yes. >> Uh and >> that was every time that I was >> and just needed to higher calorie, get up a little bit higher in body fat percentage and then all a sudden it flips. It's actually a lot more common both that and the the losing the periods for young athletes. Super common. >> I had a female client who she was fit, strong, all that stuff. It struggling getting uh pregnant. We had to gain 15 pounds of body fat. I mean, it was like what about muscle? I'm like, that's cool, but we got to get body fat. And it worked. >> Well, I share Katrina's story cuz I I always thought um I I've definitely had those cases where I had like fit athletes and they had and they definitely and it was it was kind of obvious that they needed to gain body fat cuz they were lean. They were like vascular woman seeing her abs. Yeah. Just lean like very very obvious. >> Katrina really surprised me when the doctor uh I didn't see it. I was like I I didn't think she was that lean, >> but she had to put body fat on in order for us to get pregnant and she right after did she got pregnant pretty dang quick, you know. >> Our next caller is Malia from Illinois. >> Hi Malia. >> Hi Malia. Hello. >> Hi. >> How are you? >> Good. How are you? How can I help you? >> How's it going? >> Good. Um well I had actually emailed you back in November so I have actually made some changes based on listening to you guys but um I am 46 now and when I had first uh sent you guys a message in November I was about 15 lbs heavier and I started doing um the muscle mommy class and I also just started I'm set starting my second round of the 40 and over um class that you guys offer. Awesome. >> I um I got diagnosed with type one like three years ago. I had no idea you could get it when you were older, but you can. I've typically always done like the beach body workouts for like ever since I had kids. I also had justational diabetes when I had kids, too. Um so I've always stayed between 125 135 and then I ballooned up to 145 all of a sudden. I know sometimes insulin can, you know, the extra insulin is hard to manage with weight sometimes. Um, and I was just on progesterone and estrogen when I had messaged you guys, but I was currently got on testosterone and I think that's helping a little bit. I also am micro doing a GLP1. Um, but I'm also getting my protein goals and I'm still eating 1,800 to 2,000 calories. is I walk about 20 to 25,000 steps a day because I'm a PE teacher and I'm constantly moving. Um I'm still having like feeling like my midsection's a little big. I'm still trying to figure out the testosterone levels. Um but yeah, and just kind of wondering what program to do next. I do I have a I've had a frozen shoulder on my left side and I kind of have a little hip impingement as well. >> Okay. So Malia, is it okay if I go through the email that you had sent because I read through it and there was some just some information for >> cont. Okay. So um in the past you did >> a lot of workout stuff uh Pilates reformer strength training. You did lots of Beachbody class, you know, type programs. >> Um you kind of like you you did a lot >> 10 25,000 steps >> today. And today you're still taking about 20 25,000 which is quite a bit. It's a lot of steps uh that you're taking per day. You're following the muscle mommy program is where you're at. >> I did that one already. I did two rounds and now I'm doing the 40 and over one. >> So, you're following 40 40 plus with the 20 uh,000 plus steps a day. >> Um, and you want to get leaner, but you're eating about 1,800 to 2,000 calories. We have no runway with calories. >> And so, we need to build. Your calories are really low. And I would guess Malaya and you just correct me if I'm wrong. Uh but you you you seem to have a history of undereating and overtraining. Uh and you >> probably >> Yeah. Well, what do you mean probably? Why wouldn't it be true? >> Well, I've always just tried to stay I mean there was times I was trying when I was a little bit heavier in November, December, I was going, you know, 15,600 calories. >> Um >> and yeah, just to kind of lean out and it wasn't working. >> Yeah. Well, even even at 1,800 2,000 calories, you're way low activity. >> Yeah, you're too low. But again, let's just back up for a second. So, you have a history of really controlling your intake, trying to control your body weight by eating lean and doing a lot of exercise. Is that true? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um, and so what do you think's happening now? Do you think uh do you think speeding up your metabolism to build is that something you you can do? Because that's a way different approach than I think what you're used to. Yeah, I would love to do that. I do worry though like when I eat more carbs as a type one, then I have to take more insulin. >> Yeah, we can do it with other with other ways of intaking uh calories. But I here's what happens when you build muscle. Your your insulin sensitivity goes up >> a lot. It's actually one of the most effective ways >> to improve your sensitivity to insulin is to build muscle. It's one of the storage vessels for glycogen, which is what you where what carbohydrates turn into. So, we need to go on a muscle building uh like journey for for probably a little while because otherwise we're left with this. You're at 18 to 2,000 calories. 1,800 2,000 calories. You could cut down to 1500, but nothing will happen. You could get down to 1,200 and you'll feel horrible um and nothing will happen. So, what we need to do is get your with that much activity, you need to be eating north of 27 2,800 calories. Now, we're not going to do it overnight, but we'll slowly build you up uh to be able to do that. And it's going to be very challenging because uh it's so different than what you've done for so long. >> How are you accomplishing the 10 to 25,000 steps? Are you getting on >> She works PE teacher. >> No, I I walk the dog every single morning for two to three miles and then I'm in PE, so we I'm just constantly moving all day. It's nice outside right now. So, we are out walking a lot, like playing tennis, walk. I walk around with the kids. I do their workouts with them sometimes. Um, so yeah, I just am active all day. >> Yeah, you're very active. Yeah. >> When When How old were you when you first started kind of watching what you ate? >> Oh, my whole life, I feel like. Um Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, I didn't really start tracking until the trackers, the apps came out, but probably, you know, I mean, I remember thinking about it when I was in high school. Okay. >> And then now, you know, tracking my whole life pretty much. >> Okay. So, this could be a tough this going to be a tough um relationship to break or change >> because it's going be very different than what you've done in the past and there's going to be a process of reverse dieting. >> Oh, there's going to be an uncomfortable phase for sure. process of reducing activity. So, some of your activity is you're busy, some of it is you're consciously trying to move and there's probably there's probably a fear there of if I don't move this much and if I start eating more, oh my god, I'm going to gain 50 pounds >> of body fat. >> So, so it's going to be a bit it's going to be a bit of a process. >> So, I could tell you what to do. Uh, but if I'm being quite honest with you, Malay, you would working with a coach would be your best bet because they'd walk you through the process. They'd coach you through all of the challenges. They'd pull back when things get unbearable because they will. Cuz reverse dieting is very difficult for some people. And at times, a coach will have to pull someone back with their calories just to give them a little break because they're like, "This is just too much." Um, and they're also going to be checking with you on, well, are we getting stronger? are we doing the right things? But that reverse diet process will build the muscle, improve your insulin sensitivity, and then we'll have some runway to do the cut, and then the body fat comes off rather than what it feels like, which is it's holding on. >> It's like wants to hold on. It wants to stick to your body. >> Mhm. >> So, that would be the direction. That would be the direction uh that I would go programwise. 40 plus is great. >> Anabolic is great. >> 15, >> you know, MAPS 15 is great. Like those are all work for you really well. >> Uh it's going to be the the reverse diet is going to be the most. >> Have you intentionally been on a surplus or a bulk like for an extended period of time? >> No, I I think I did try one. It was like with a Beach Body one and I was just eating a lot more carbs during that time, but I wasn't diabetic yet. >> Um so that one I did try for a little while. >> Mhm. So a couple things with uh with type one. uh if you train too intensely that can that cannot be a good thing. So which I'm glad you're following our programs. So if you went back and did like Insanity Beach body that would be totally that would be super wrong for you. >> The second thing is if we if we bookend your workouts with carbohydrates that tends to be better. >> So kind of organize them in a way to where you're most sensitive to insulin which is when you're strength training. Um, and then bumping calories. We we could add some carbs, uh, but we could also do it through fat. >> We can also bump fat and it really doesn't make that big of a difference. >> How how good are you at the long rest periods in the program? >> I was just going to get to that. Yes. >> Um, I mean, you mean in between lifts, like taking 3 minutes or >> Yep. >> It is hard cuz I want to get it done quickly. Yes. Yes. So, I I mean, I'll get to two minutes and then I kind of get antsy and jump in. >> Yeah. Of course you do. So, this is a this is why the coaching part is so important because there's there's there's characteristics of somebody that's that's dieted and trained the way you have for as long as you had that we're going to have to break and change and it's going to be a push and a pull through the whole process. I'm going to have you do something. You're going to resist for a while. Then I'm going to get you a little bit bought in. Then you're not going to trust me. Then I have to get get you bought in again. It's like it's a push and pull and then eventually things will click and you'll see the results you want. You'll be happy. But it's not easy. >> It's not easy because and and you know because for so many years I mean even when when Sal said the number 2700, right? Like you felt you felt your reaction, right? I mean I >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. So and so there's so many signals to me that I know that like what I'm going to have to do with a client. And so it's it'll be a process. But if you surrender, if you can trust and go, "Okay, I trust these guys know what they're doing or I trust their the trainer. I know that they're going to they're going to take care of me." And you do that and you defer this, then you're going to be okay. But if you are like, I'm going to just figure this out or you fight with them the whole time, then it's going to be a bumpy road along the way. >> You just establish this new mentality. It would be so helpful cuz you have the knowledge like you've done, you know, you've worked out and you know the exercises and you watch your calories, but you know to have somebody reiterate this entirely new uh way of doing it, I think would be super helpful for you. >> They can go they can go really slow too, Malia. So, uh, you know, they can bump your calories 100, >> you know, a week or two weeks and see how you feel. And what you'll see is you're just going to get stronger. >> You're just going to get stronger. And it's it's a snowball effect. So typically what happens, you get stronger, stronger, stronger, calories up, calories up, calories up, calories up, and then things start to work and you start to get leaner and it feels weird because you feel like you're not doing a lot in comparison to what you've done in the past. So you're like, "What? This is weird. I'm getting leaner. Like I don't I don't I'm moving less. This isn't making any sense." >> It's a process though. 6 to9 months of you trusting the process. So it's not a you know, turn it on and then tomorrow you like see it's going to take a little bit of time. So, just trust that process. >> You've done it a certain way for so long. I you know, I'm sure you're frustrated because there there's nothing there and I I'm always like feel for my clients who put the work in. It's it's not a lack you are not it's not the lack of discipline and effort and commitment like so like that's most people most people lack consistency, the discipline, the effort like that's not your situation. So that's a plus that we have, right? Like I know when I get a client like you, like, okay, I know that she's got the discipline, she's got the consistency. If I can just get her trust that I know what I'm doing and I'm going to take her through this, like then then we're going to be okay. But it's a process. >> This is a good place to be, though, because uh your your hormones are kind of getting balanced. Your your own testosterone, you got the progesterone, estrogen, >> insulin is handled. Uh so we're in a good place to start this kind of process. But I mean, with your diet, I'm going to I mean, straight up, like you're eating 150 to 170 grams of protein a day, but about 2,000 calories. A real easy way to bump calories would be move away from the super lean cuts of whatever you're eating uh to get that. Okay? You know, that would be a real simple get rid of the chicken breast. Should be chicken thighs. Stop eating the super super lean meats, all white or all fish. Enjoy some red meat. Enjoy some healthy fats. >> That's an easy That's a easy 200 calorie bump. Like very quick and easy. All right, sounds good. >> Yeah. >> Do you want to have a mind pump coach call you because I can set that up for you. Um, >> sure. Yes. >> Okay, let's do that. Um, and uh, they do a very, very good job. We hire them ourselves. >> The process is difficult, but it works. And if you've listened to us talk to other callers, we have people come back. They all come back. They're like, I didn't think it would work, but it did. >> So, the process works. >> Yeah. Sounds good. Thank you guys. Thank you. >> We appreciate it. All right. I'm looking forward to trying it. Okay. Thank you. Byebye. >> Byebye. >> Okay. >> Yeah, that's a um a good example of what we talk about. >> Hope I hope she does it. >> Yeah, >> it's I think she will. >> I mean, she's very self-aware, right? Like even I was able to call her out on stuff and she wasn't like, you know, you can always tell like Yeah. When you when you call someone out and they either lie or defend, she was like, I know I struggled with the minutes. Yes, I know I made that face when Sal said. Like, so that the self-awareness where she's at hopefully she and it sounds like >> she knows she hit a wall. >> Yeah. You know, it's she's going to be blown away. She'll be blown away when she follows it and is consistent and then things start clicking. It's always a trip. I love being a part of it because I love hearing from people. I didn't believe it. I didn't think it would work, >> but it totally did. Uh and it will. And she moves so much. She's done this for so long. Like you do a couple changes. >> Oh god. >> And stay consistent, she's going to just trip out. Well, what I love with those clients is that, like I said, it's not a lack of effort and commitment and consistency, which is what most people struggle with, right? What do most people are not consistent, don't have the effort, right? That's not the biggest battle in the beginning, >> right? So, she's got that part, you know, and so that's that's a a huge plus, but like getting her to reframe what it looks like is the challenge. >> Our next caller is Shell from Pennsylvania. >> Hi, Shell. >> How you doing, hun? >> Good. How are you guys? >> Good. >> Good. Good. How can we help you? Well, first off, as always, I want to say thank you. I've been listening to you guys for many years, and um I just wish I would have had you in the 20s when I had my kids young, you know, versus now I'm like telling my kids about my grandkids, you know, what they should be doing. >> Oh, that's great. That's wonderful. >> Where you at? Beautiful. Where you at? Look at those trees. >> Oh, I live full-time in my camper. So, this is my office in my camper and I got a I got a deck out back here and >> Oh, how cool. >> Oh, that's awesome. >> How cool. Yeah, it's kind of funny. You were talking about campers the other the other week and >> Yep. I've I've been full-time camper for six years and that's actually one of our businesses. We do mobile repair RV repairs. Yeah. >> Very cool. Oh, great. >> So, we travel all over the country and work wherever we're at. >> That's awesome. Well, so how how can I help you? >> Um, well, let me read my email to make it short or kind of short here. Apologize. I'm not good with talking with guy people and stuff, so bear with me. No worries. >> Um, I've had three DEXA scans done uh since December of last year, and each time I've changed up regimens or my eating habits or and each time I thought I was doing better. I've went through uh MP hormones prior and then moved with the Vabella when they started. Um, and even going through all that, each time I do it, my uh my scans are worse. >> Okay. >> And not better. >> Okay. >> And I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and why that is. >> Okay. Well, so tell us. Okay. So, you mind if I read off your email a little bit? >> Oh, no. Go. Yes, please. >> Yeah. Because you did a great job. I just want to say this first off. First off, you're so sweet. I really like it and I I'm looking at your email and you you gave us some really some good details. I think these it's important. uh that when we get details like this because it gives me a good idea of what we can work on and and what might be the issue. So, it has your age, your height, and your body weight. You're lifting four days a week a week. You sleep uh between 6 to 7 hours a night. So, you go to bed at 7 p.m. You wake up at three. >> You don't necessarily track your calories, but you prioritize protein first. And I'm assuming you're eating whole natural foods. Is that where you're getting that from? >> Yes. Yeah. Basically, chicken and beef is like my go-to. and uh crab since I'm on the east coast but do a lot of blue crab. >> Okay. And you're taking uh thyroid, testosterone, and you're on a few peptides here. And then Doug, when you got that DEXA, can did the lean body mass change or was it just body fat? >> So, I see the fat mass has changed uh here from 2025 to 2026. Um yeah, so it's gone up a little bit from that point. >> Okay. So, here's the big glaring thing, and this is going to be annoying to you. Zelian mouse what I'm looking at. >> Well, yeah. So, I see that too. That's also changed. Not not in the positive. So, here's here's what it's going to be frustrating. You're going to hear what I'm what I'm gonna tell you and you're gonna be like, "Well, that sucks." But what's glaring to me and people never believe it when I tell them, but if you're averaging every night six to seven hours of sleep, it's your sleep. It plays that big of a role. It plays a huge role. So 6 to seven hours on average is about six and a half hours most nights. If we can get you one If you can get one more hour of sleep, that's it. One more hour of sleep within 30 days, you'll see your body moving in the positive direction. >> I'm just I'm not sure where. >> How come how come it's so early? 3:00 a.m. What are you doing up at 3:00 a.m.? >> So >> out in the out in the trees, too. It's pitch black out there. like what the hell could you do at 3:00 in the morning out there? >> So, I work full-time remotely on top of owning two businesses. So, I'm allowed to work my 40 hours anytime I want. So, I will get up at 2 in the morning and work I usually have my 40 hours in Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. >> Whoa. Okay. >> And then once and once that is done, Wednesday, Thursday, Fridays, I'm doing the business stuff. I'm doing the bookkeeping. I'm out in the field. Like this morning I was out in the field helping work. >> Wow. You work a lot. Wow. >> Yes. I we do it. Yes. >> I mean, which by the way totally curveball for me because I'm like, "Oh, I I live in my RV full time out in the forest. It sounds like you're vacationing all the time." >> Totally not the read uh I was getting from this call. Like, so that's a curveball and a half, right? Wow. So, you go if you you go to bed at 700 p.m. >> Yep. Anywhere between 6:30 and 7. >> But then you wake up at 2. I wake up between 2:00 and 2:30. Yes. >> If if you could just add an hour to that, if you could wake up an hour later uh and and help yourself sleep through that process, that would make a big difference. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I listen, I I've had a few clients. >> Now, often times when you're working with somebody, sleep is is part of the the formula, but I've had a few clients in the past where they kind of did everything right >> and all we did was get their sleep. That's all we did. And it was like it was like I just it was like magic. >> Last key that you just turned. >> Oh, it was like magic. It was changed everything. Uh body composition, energy, >> everything changed just from that alone. So >> it's important for all clients. It becomes exponentially more important as we age too. It's not like we're 25 anymore and we could grind like that. Like I I mean >> it's different. It's it's different, >> right? And like this sleeping pattern I've had for years. So, it's like, and that's why I'm trying to like nothing's changed in the past year except for my body fat's gone up and my lean body mass has gone down, you know? So, it's >> Well, figure that out. >> What happens is, I mean, we're humans are pretty good at being uh kind of chronically sleepd deprived. We can kind of get through >> things uh but it doesn't mean it's ideal. And it's cumulative. So, you know, you can do it for a week, you can do it for two weeks, but you do it for years, >> you don't notice it. >> Yeah. It has progressive uh impacts on our bodies. So, that would be right. Right. If you were my client, I'd be like, we're going to start. That's it. We're going to start here. >> Uh the supplements you could take that would enhance or or or improve your sleep. And they're very inexpensive. These are very inexpens. They're backed by data. Very inexpensive. You go theine, uh glycine. So, those are amino acids. are really really cheap. And then epigenine. Apenine is a compound found in chamomile. You can find those on Amazon. They're super super cheap. You take them before bed on an empty stomach and it should help you be able to stay asleep because I'm assuming you're probably so used to this, you probably just wake up at 2. Is that what's happening? >> Yeah. Yeah. There was no alarm ever. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, what I would do is just just you wake up, you look at your clock. Okay. It's 2 o'clock. I'm going to just shut my eyes and I'm going to lay in bed for the next hour. And what you'll find is they'll doze in and out for the next hour, but eventually your body will get used to it and you should be able to sleep longer. >> Would you also recommend she does like a mega dose of creatine with that that lack of sleep too? That >> I mean you do you already take creatine? >> I do. I take it consistently on the days I work out, but on the days I do not, I seem to lax in remembering to take it. >> Just take it every day. That'll help uh that'll also help. It's just good for you, but it won't make up uh for lack of sleep. In some ways, it helps with performance, but doesn't make up in the other ways. But that's pretty much it, hun. I mean, everything else looks good. I mean, diet-wise, you know, because you don't track, you could look at that. You could look at maybe big offenders like, you know, there's that bag of chips I have here and there or stuff like that, you know, you could always look at that. But honestly, the big thing that's that's really standing out to me is is the sleep >> and it and do do it for 30 days. Try it for 30 days. Be consistent. >> It's almost guaranteed that S because and why I don't think it's diet stuff is because we're lo we're losing muscle. If she was like overeing every now and then and still prioritizing protein like you'd still you'd still hang on to muscle or build muscle. Your body is pairing down muscle because it's it's it's fighting back. It's fighting back and it's pushing back because it's lacking sleep. And that's why and so it's we got to fix that. It's that it's 100% that. >> Yeah. It's like Yeah. cuz it's like I at over time I was feeling better and like each time like each time I got the adex Dexus scan I was super excited looking forward to it and then I get the results and quite the deflation in my attitude towards everything I guess. >> Yeah. No, don't be deflated. You're doing you're doing all the other stuff right and what I want to remind you of is so you're right cuz but here's what'll happen. If you stay on this path you're going to feel like crap. So stress hormones feel good. So, we all think, we all been told cortisol is bad and you don't want too. When your cortisol is high, when your stress hormones are high, you got energy. You feel good. You almost feel wired. But that chronic elevation uh reduces muscle mass and and it helps promote fat gain over time. Then it crashes. Then that's the bad part. When you get to the point where you crash, then it gets emergency and it feels terrible. You're like, "Oh my god, I feel horrible. What's going on?" But in between that is like this like wired energy. I used to have people like this in my gym. They'd show up, they do these crazy intense classes. I feel great. What's going on? I'm like, uh, you're doing too much, but I feel so good. I'm like, it's you're a cortisol junkie. Let's get this to come down. And then, of course, everything works. might be a worthwhile investment for you to get like an Aura ring um or like a Fitbit to track sleep just so you have like a a data point, you know, cuz I know what Sal's saying is like try and get an hour of sleep, but there's times where I'm laying there and doing that and I get really restless bad sleep and there other times where I get really good sleep and it's nice to have that data point. I can look at my aura ring and see, oh nice, today was a 80 score today. And so it'll give you something to kind of focus on since that's the main focus. I think there's a lot of value in investing in something like that. Fitbit or a ring, anything that's you have anything with that? >> I do have I do have a Garmin that does that. Okay. Um >> my average, which is like my highest I've ever had was a 75. >> Wow. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, Chelle, this is Shell, this is our sleeve, man. If that's your highest at a 75, >> that which means you probably have some 60s and 50s. >> Oh, yeah. I average like a 68. >> Oh, god. Yeah. For like the past few years. our goal. That's our if I was training if I was training you, that's what we cuz you're doing everything else really good. That's all I'm talking to you about is like let's get competitive with how good can we get this sleep. >> Do you have like a routine like an hour before sleep you do or like do you prep you know before that? >> The hardest part is like my husband doesn't get home till 5:30 in the evening. So when he gets home, we eat dinner cuz that's our, you know, and then, you know, >> we talk business and then I go to go to bed at 7 and then I'll get up like when he comes to bed at 9, I'll wake up and take my medicine that I have to take on an empty stomach >> because it's not empty when I go to bed. So I get up to take it. >> Damn, girl. You guys work hard. >> There's a couple you guys be working your ass off. >> Yeah, there's a couple things. >> There's a few things we can fix there with your sleep. like black everything out, of course, cuz 6 7:00 the sun's still out. >> Yep. >> See if you can figure out >> eye mask. >> See if you can figure out a way to not have to wake up at 9 uh to take your medication. Uh if you could >> or can you Yeah. switch it so you go to bed at 9:00 and then, you know, extend your morning a bit. >> I I could do that. My I guess how it all originally started was I started to go to bed earlier so I didn't snack at night. Oh, that's how >> that's how that's why I start that's how I started going to bed earlier so I didn't snack at night. >> Okay. >> And that took out the snacking and then that was years ago and now it's become a habit. >> Oh, this is not necessary shell. >> No, it's it's really it's not it's a >> Here's Okay, here's what we're going to do. Your husband goes to bed at 9:00 p.m. >> Mhm. >> Okay. I want you to try going to bed at 9:00 p.m. You have your last meal at 5:30. That way you can have your supplements before bed. >> And then and then now you're obviously going to be switching your circadian rhythms. So it's going to take about a week to get used to. >> Yes. It'll take an adjustment. >> There's going to be an adjustment. Uh so give yourself a week or two to get used to it and then sleeps 8 hours. >> Yeah. >> That'll fix that's going to change your life. >> Yeah. And he won't interrupt you too by coming in. That's that's a whole another >> Plus you'll go to bed when the sun's down. Yeah. It's going to change your life. >> Yeah. >> All right. I will I will give it a try. Like I'll give anything a try at this rate. >> The other thing the other thing we could also do just because we we are trying something new with you like this is and I don't know if you've ever heard us talk about the concier but you'd be like a great candidate for someone who just checks in with our team once a month and we're making these little little adjustments. >> Um I could have one one of the trainers call you and kind of explain what that looks like if that's something you'd be interested in. >> Yeah, definitely. are you um with all the peptides and the stuff that I'm taking through MP hormones is that I don't want to say is it necessary is it I started out taking it cuz I didn't have testosterone at all and I've gotten that up but even I've been on that for two a year and a half now two years but my libido is still tanked so could that still have something to do with my sleep too >> oh that's sleep help balance yeah 100% out% if you fix your sleep I'm going to tell you right now. So, thyroid you want to stay on. Testosterone you want to stay on. >> You you don't The other peptides are great, but you don't need them. >> You fix your sleep, right? >> It's going to change everything. >> Everything. Give it 30 days, like dedicated 30 days. Go to bed at 9:00, wake up 8 hours later, >> give it 30 days and it will change your life. I mean, the fact that you're already tracking on Garmin, I love because now we have like a data point that like you know what you know what it's been like and so like you and I if we're when we're meeting if we're meeting like I'm just telling you like what's our scores been and our goal is just to keep getting better and better. Let's just keep getting better and better scores and being consistent with those scores and of all the things that you got going on, that's the thing we're focusing on because if we can put like Sal said, if we can put start stringing 30 days and we can break your record of 75 and we see an 80 for the first time, >> you know what I'm saying? We see an 80 for the first time, you get a couple 70s in a row, like now we're kicking ass and then we start building. >> Just to be clear, give it 30 days, but it's going to take about 6 months for this to become really good and regular for you. So, it's going to be a process of getting used to, okay? I just want to be clear. >> All right. >> Okay. >> We got this though. Yeah. Yeah. We got this. Simple. Be huge for you. >> Simple and straightforward. So, do it. It's just it. Nothing else. You don't got to change anything else. >> Okay. All right. I appreciate all your help. >> All right. Good to see you. Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Dude, I was so thrown off by the by the living in the RV and the trees. >> Like, she grinds. She >> grinds. Gets up like hella early. >> What a grinder. But I'm glad towards the end she started talking about why she does that cuz I I thought that was necessary. >> Yeah. >> I guess I assume this was just like a necessary at first and was like >> but she did it cuz she didn't want to snack. So she just stuck on the schedule she didn't have to keep. >> No. >> I had a client once I had a dude I trained once. >> All we did was fix his sleep. That's all we did. He gained 8 pounds of muscle and lost 2% body fat. Changed nothing else. >> Oh yeah. That that was my client who would get interrupted all the time from international calls. And so once she retired, it was like boom, everything worked. Yeah. You know, >> oh that I mean it's clearly that. It's clear that with her. >> So clear. >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. >> And people don't believe it. I know she's kind of like, "All right, I'll give it a shot." But I'm telling you, >> she she knows though. I feel like like when we point I mean and it's great that she has she has had some data, too. Like to say that your best score you've ever seen is a 75. >> I know. >> Is that's rough. Bad night. >> Oh yeah, dude. >> Our next caller is Andrew from Washington. >> What's up, Andrew? >> How you doing, Andrew? What's happening? >> How are you guys doing? Good, >> good, dude. How can we help you? >> Um, well, I'm a little I guess I would say frustrated and uh lost here. So, I'll start like everybody else. And again, thank you guys for taking my call. Um, I'll read you what I wrote you all and I guess we can go from there. >> All right, let's do it. >> All right, so hi Saul, Adam, Justin, and Doug. I've been listening to the podcast now for about eight months, and it's completely changed how I approach training. I'm hoping you can understand my help hoping you can help me understand my latest decks of results because they don't seem to match my effort or my progress. I'm 42 510. Before this, I'd never trained seriously. I did CrossFit for about three years, then took a year off due to arthritis in my chest. Since returning, I've moved away from CrossFit and now focus solely on strength training and building muscle. My wife is a certified personal trainer and a CrossFit level two coach, so I've had plenty of good guidance. I might be sleeping on the couch after going around my own personal trainer to ask you guys these questions. Uh >> we we won't tell her. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, she uh made sure she's posted up in the next room to hear what I said. >> All right. >> All right. So, uh, I do want to preface this is this, uh, for the past several months, I've been on a structured cut against her recommendation. >> Ah, um, I've been at about 17-,800 calories per day, uh, 170 to 190 gram of protein every day, uh, with mostly whole foods. Uh, let's see here. I started completely plant-based. I've been plant-based for about 6 years now. Um, then added tuna and shrimp just because the volume became too much to eat. It was like I had to eat a bail of hay every day just to hit my protein. >> Um, I track everything consistently and hit my calories and protein goals. Sleep has been consistently good. I lift three time three days a week using progressive overload. On my non-lifting days, I walk or ruck 3 to four miles, carrying 50 to 70 lbs. I also average over 10,000 steps a day about 90% of the time. My DEXA showed a 14.7% body fat and 146.1 lbs of lean mass on my first scan. 6 weeks later, my DEXA showed a 16.2% 2% body fat and 139.1 lbs of lean mass. According to the scan, I lost 4.7 lb overall, gained 2 lbs of fat and lost 7 lbs of lean mass. Um, what doesn't make sense is my lifts have increased as far as strength goes. Um, I do look a little softer than I did in May. So, I can understand that I may have gained a little body fat, but I just can't really understand how that happened uh unless it had to do with recovery or nutrition. So, I guess my main questions are is were my calories simply too low? Could the weighted rocking and overall activity level have interfered with recovery and body composition? Um, how much of the reported lean mass loss could be real realistically be glycogen and water versus actual muscle? And if I was your client, where do you think I should go from here? >> You hit it already and I bet your wife told you this. Both. It's both. >> Yeah. >> Over overtrained, underfed >> to big time. So, so often times we'll get people on the show ask questions and the answer is very obvious. >> Yeah. >> So, this is not mysterious whatsoever. In fact, if you didn't tell me your Dex is scanned, I would have guessed. >> Yep. Now to answer your question about strength, >> strength can go up because technique gets better and central nervous system uh yeah the adaptations get better. So you just get better at the lift. >> So now you do that long enough typically you end up uh building muscle. >> You said you went on a cut. So 17,800 calories a cut. Do you know where you were before that? >> Um probably low 2000s. Okay. I've I've had a horrible uh eating habit my whole life. I was a commercial commercial fisherman for a long time. Um owned a body shop. So like I ate at night. I didn't eat breakfast. I barely eat lunch and then I just gorged at night, got up, did it again for the majority of my life. >> Okay. I'm I'm assuming too that if you have a CrossFit back background too that you probably train pretty intensely and so that would be my guess. I'm sure you don't have you don't seem like somebody who trains like soft and weak like you probably get after it when you lift. >> Yeah, that and that is one of my largest problems is this and like even uh the tracking the nutrition is I'm all or nothing. Like I'm weighing my onions. >> I'm weighing absolutely everything. And then when I work out, it's very difficult for me to dial back. >> Yeah. >> Why? Okay. Can I Why plant-based? Is this uh because ethical reasons, moral reasons, or is it because you want to be healthier? >> Um well, a big part was my wife is plant-based for health reasons. Um and it was just easier. I do all the cooking. So instead of making, you know, a meal for my kids, a meal for my wife, and a meal for me, I figured I'll just eat what she's eating. >> Gotcha. And what is it okay if I ask you what the health reasons are? Does she have like a polymorphism where her her blood lipids are all over the place or >> um it has something to do with migraines. The estrogen and like dairy and chicken really just gave her really extreme migraines where I mean >> so so the the for you Andrew the prescription simple uh you got to bump your calories way up. >> Yeah. >> Like way up. >> Well that or combination of more appropriate programming with a little bit more calories. It's the combination of the two that's killing. >> Well, the calories are real low, dude. Your body's the thirsty. Like, if you bumped your calories 800, if you went up 800 calories, you would notice dramatic difference. And if you threw in some red meat, dude, that would make a big difference for you. Red meat and eggs would help you a lot. >> Those those two things right there. Now, cuz if you try to go up 800 calories with your plant-based diet, >> it's going to be really hard for you to do. >> I mean, why not? I mean, eat eat like uh the plant-based as the base and then just throw some meat or like literally cook the same [ __ ] but then just throw some chicken or beef there with it. >> And then that's kind of what I've done with the the tuna, salmon. >> Okay, cool. Yeah, >> the seafood. If anything, I'd be more inclined to go pescatarian. >> Um I just actually just the other day we were talking and took 42 years of my life to realize with uh um red meat that I'm eating muscle. >> Yeah. Do you do you take uh do you take creatine? >> I do. I do about uh 15 uh yeah 15 grams a day. >> All right. Do you take a methylated B vitamin? >> I do not know. I I have P's got me on a whole bunch of supplements. I just do what she says. >> Okay. Okay. Good. Good. >> I do not. I do not. She said I do not. >> All right. So, try switching to a methylated B vitamin. Uh you might be getting your bees anyways, but I would go methylated B. Uh just some people um don't don't absorb bees very well unless it's the methylated version. So you'll notice a difference. If if not, you can go back to the regular uh >> are you are you going to get a big I told you so when we hang up right now or what? >> Well, okay. So I was listening to episode Oh jeez. uh 2923 this morning and had to come in and uh eat crow and tell you like you're training me exactly how they're talking about it minus the rocking and the walking which was my idea. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If you so if you want to feel better very quickly and have energy go through the roof, build muscle, get stronger, get leaner, you want to see crazy results, >> you would cut the rucking out. You'd stick to the strength training. You'd bump your calories 800 uh and you'd be and you'd be good. And you'd know >> 8 800 from the 18 inch. I want to be around 26 >> minimum. Yeah. I'd have you at 2,600 calories to start with with the rucking. I'd have you over 3,000. >> Okay. >> Yeah. But 2,600 calories is not a ton, but with the strength training, 2,600 calories. Get some of those fats in there. So, you know, get some of those fats because you're hitting your protein. >> Yeah. Um, and then within a week of doing that, within a week of doing that, you're going to be like, "What's I feel way better." >> We I mean, we could supercharge it even more if I play with your training a little bit, too. I mean, how you how I just have a feeling the way you approach lifting is super intense. Are you good? How are you with rest periods? Do you rest for three minutes in between sets? >> I do. I do. That is one thing that I am doing. Um, as far as the Oh, jeez. Uh, what were you going for there? What were you saying right before the 3minut rest? >> Intensity. Intensity. How intense? >> Intensity. Yes. So, she tells me to stop when I've got a couple left in the tank. >> She's right. >> Yeah, she's right. >> I don't. >> This isn't I told you. This is She's over there. She's over there nodding her. She's nodding her head the whole time we're talking right now. I know she is. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. No, that she's she's right. Let two of That's what you do. I mean, that will suit what what S gave you advice-wise. I think that'll already send you in the right direction. You want to supercharge it. Listen to her. Leave two in the tank. >> Leave two in the tank. Drop the rucking. >> Bro, you're gonna gain eight pound You'll gain 8 lbs of lean body mass so fast if you just stop your sets two reps short. Eat 800 more calories. Cut the rucking out. You'll recovery, bro. You'll gain eight pounds of muscle so quick. It's going to blow you away. >> Okay. Now, just make sure I keep those steps up. I know that's a big one. You guys >> You're fine. >> Your steps are fine. I'm not worried about someone like you with activity. I think you're the kind of guy have to pull back. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then really and then and really push the protein. Get get some meat in there. If you go the the uh fish route, salmon, get some salmon in there. Um and then Yeah. You're That's going to make a huge difference, bro. Huge difference. >> Wonderful. Hey, thank you very much. >> You got it, dude. You got it, man. Good luck. >> Email us with the results. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We'll do. We'll do. >> Yeah. Take it easy, dude. >> All right. Thank you. >> Yeah. Very simple fix. Yeah, >> I you know I love clients like that cuz I be like, "Oh, cool. You're going to blow blow your mind, bro, too." >> Look at It's always It's always more fun to take somebody who has got discipline and consistency and pull them back and adjust things because those are the ones that are like mind blown because they're like they don't lack effort and and and you know what I'm saying? So, it's like adjusting and tweaking and being like, "Hey, this could be easier." >> I'm going to say I didn't want to say this to him because I never want to underpromise because you know, you never know. Uh, what'll probably happen, he's going to gain 10 pounds and get leaner. He's going to bump his calories. He's like, "What? I lost 3% body fat while I gain." >> That's exactly what to cut out the cut out the rucking, >> pull back on the intensity of the training, bump calories. He will absolutely put 10 lbs on and it'll be like all lean mass. Mostly all lean mass. Yeah. >> All right. I know you like that episode. If you did, check this one out. Shredded, ripped, defined, singledigit body fat. >> Yes. >> You want to get there? Let's talk about it. Ooh. difficult and is it worth it? That's a follow-up question. >> Yeah. First off, we got to say, okay, so singledigit body fat, obviously body fat percentages, uh that could be represented by one digit, like 3%, 5%, 6%, 9%. That's uh ripped for men. For women, >> add 10%. >> Yeah. Don't Yeah, exactly. You go you go up about