Simon Sinek: The Number One Reason Why You’re Not Succeeding | E145

We don't teach leaders how to have uncomfortable conversations. We don't teach students how to have uncomfortable conversations. You tell me which is going to be more valuable for the rest of your life. How to have a difficult conversation or trigonometry? Described as a visionary thinker with a rare intellect. Multiple time best-selling author Simon Sinek Every single one of us knows what we do. Some of us know how we do it, but very very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do. And I think one of the reasons most of us don't know who we are is because we're making decisions that are inconsistent with that true cause, with that why. There's a great irony in in all of this. I had what a lot of people would be considered a good life and yet didn't want to wake up and go to work anymore. Why? I We cannot do this thing called career or life alone. We're just not that smart, we're not that strong, we're just not that good. For anyone who wants to be a better version of themselves, purpose comes from It's one of the best podcast I've ever done. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO USA Edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Simon, my introduction to you was this book Start With Why and it hung on the walls of some of my offices around the world for a long time and then my employees would come in after reading the book and evangelize about it and come up in meetings and in discussions and in creative brainstorms etc. over and over and over again. The question I wanted to ask you was was there a point in your life where you'd felt like you drifted so far from your why that you realized the importance of it for the first time? Well, the simple answer is yes. Um it was that drifting that set me on the path to find it in the first place, to to to even articulate that idea. I had what a lot of people would be considered sort of a good life. I was living the proverbial American dream. You know, I quit my job to start my own business. The business was doing okay, made an okay living, had great clients, did good work. And yet I'd lost my passion for that and didn't want to wake up and go to go to work anymore. Which was embarrassing because superficially everything was just fine. I was pretending that I was happier, more in control, and more successful than I was or felt. Um which is quite frankly pretty draining and pretty dark. And it wasn't until a very very close friend of mine came to me and said, "Something's wrong." She was the first one to notice something. And I came clean. And I sort of let it all out. And uh it was that catharsis that sort of lifted this heavy weight off my shoulders. I was no longer alone, it was no longer a secret. Um and all of the energy that was previously going into lying, hiding, and faking now went into finding a solution. There was a confluence of events. It's not, you know, all of these histories are perfectly neat and clean and that's not really how it is or was, but to compress it and make and oversimplify it, I made this discovery based on the biology of human decision-making that every single one of us knows what we do. Some of us know how we do it, but very very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do. And I realized that was what I was missing. So to answer your your question, yes, 100%. The realization of the why was my loss of it. And I realized I knew what I did and I was good at it. I knew how I was different or special or stood out from the crowd and that was my differentiating value proposition and I was articulate about it. But I couldn't tell you why I was waking up in bed every day to do it, you know, and I would give some nonsense entrepreneur answer cuz I want to be my own boss. I'm like, "Yeah, sure, but that's not a reason to get out of bed every day." This got me thinking a lot about the guests that I have sit here and also my own story where sometimes I think people's why or the thing that's been driving them is in fact some kind of trauma or insecurity. I think cuz you sit here with people and they're whether it's Israel Adesanya, the UFC champion, who's cuz the current maybe world's best UFC fighter, he was battered and bullied as a kid being the only black kid in his school in New Zealand and so it's no coincidence that he strived to be this fighter and in fact when he won the UFC title the next day he was he was depressed and he went to therapy. That's made me question whether like our whys can sometimes be trauma or insecurity driven as opposed to being intentional and I don't know. So a why is fully formed by the time we're in our mid to late teens. The youngest person I've done a why discovery for was 16 and it worked. The process worked. Um and what I've learned from just doing hundreds of these over the years is that a why is always positive. It's always striving for something. So like we're not inspired against something, we're not inspired to stop something, we're inspired to build something or create something or advance something. Um though it may have been born out of trauma, there's usually a silver lining that gives us that cause. Especially trauma that happens in the middle of our lives, you know, September 11th is often looked to as, you know, people found purpose. You know, we are who we are. Like I said, we're fully formed by the experiences we have when we're young, you know, at a pretty young age. And now the opportunity life presents us is to make decisions that either keeps us in balance with who we really are or not. And I think one of the reasons most of us feel discomfort or don't feel ourselves or don't know who we are is because we're making decisions that are inconsistent with that true cause, with that why. So you raise the case of um individual athletes who become champions and then suffer depression. Fairly common story. You hear this from Olympians. You know, Michael Phelps becomes the most medaled, you know, uh Olympian of all time, immediately suffers depression. Andre Agassi becomes the most storied, you know, tennis player of all time, immediately becomes depressed. And what I've learned from talking to some of these um these particularly athletes, but I think it happens in the business world as well, which is from a very young age they set themselves a goal that in my words would be a very selfish goal. I want to be the best at X, the best tennis player, the best golfer, the best whatever. And, you know, the way Olympians put it, which I get a kick out of is, "I want to win the Olympics." Like, "Well, no one wins the Olympics. Like you can be a winner in your sport, you know?" But that's an aside. But and and their entire lives from pretty young ages, every decision they're making is to help them advance this finite goal. And all of their relationships are, "Can you help me achieve my goal?" Right? And if you can no longer help me achieve my goal, I don't need you anymore as a coach or even a friend. And there's huge sacrifices, missing of birthdays, missing of Christmases, you know, missing of major life uh events because I have to practice so I can achieve my goal. And when they get interviewed on the news, you know, or at the Olympics or whatever, you know, "Why do you do it?" And they'll say, "Well, I'm doing it to inspire the little kids." Which is complete [ __ ] You know, if you look at all of their uh vision boards from when they were younger of pictures of podiums and medals and money and Lamborghinis, not a single little child on there of the people you're doing it for. It's it's just a lucky strike extra. I mean, absolutely you do inspire children, but that's not the reason you did it. You just got that, you know, like I said, it's sort of a it's a twofer. And and then when they achieve or don't achieve this thing and then can no longer compete for it, um they've set their entire path and all their relationships on this one these finite selfish goals and so when it's complete, they realize they don't really have a lot of friends around them. They don't really have a lot of close relationships. They don't really even have a sense of purpose because they've been spent the past 20 years or so with one purpose, which was this finite goal, which now has run out. And so they're very purposeless. And I see this in Broadway performers who set their whole life to be on the West End or be on Broadway. You know, every class, every tap dancing class, every singing class, they make it, they get there, and then depression or at least malaise. Or senior executives, same thing. If I just or if I just make a million dollars, you know, if I just become a millionaire, then I'll feel. And uh and the problem with all of those things is, as I said before, they are selfish. Uh it is your goal for your reasons, which um is not fulfilling for any social animal, for any human being. You know, our sense of joy and fulfillment and love and purpose comes from our ability to serve another human being. Have a child, tell me how your life changes. Fall in love, tell me how your life changes. You know, think about all the stupid things, irrational things we've done for love. We get on planes and travel around the world just to say I love you. You know, we do ridiculous things and it all feels worth it. And the sacrifices we make for a child all feel worth it, but these are no longer for us and these things will live on beyond our own lives. They are not finite, they are infinite. And there's nothing wrong with personal achievement, there's nothing wrong with setting goals, but it has to be in the context of something even bigger. In general, team sports don't suffer this because you had to do it together. You know, it's usually individual athletes who suffer this more often. And so there there is a There's one of the athletes I would point to is a guy by the name of Curtis Martin. Curtis is a Hall of Fame NFL footballer. And he only started playing football basically to stay out of trouble. He did it as a favor to his mom just so he wouldn't get into He grew up in a really bad neighborhood in Philadelphia. It basically kept him out of trouble and turns out he was really good at it. And when he realized he was good at it, he realized that by being good at something, it will give him the power to actually give back later. And it he made this realization especially when he went to college on scholarship and then made it to the NFL. He realized the better he was at the sport, it wasn't about propelling his own career. It was about when he leaves this career, he has a platform that would be bigger than the platform he has now. And so he was driven and driven and driven not so that he could be the best, not that so that he could make the most money. In fact, he made a lot less money than a lot of other players of his rank. Not that he could be rich or famous or any of these things. He did it so that he could build his platform so that he could give back later. So when he retired from the NFL, he wasn't lost. He wasn't searching. He he knew exactly what the next step was because being in being an elite athlete to the highest level possible was only step one. Um and to see one's life as a continuum rather than a than a than an event um is much healthier. On that point of seeing one's life as a continuum. By the way, you completely You call it atting someone where you describe their situation, but you completely atted me. You completely described my situation in terms of the place of mind I was in at 25 when I had that offer to buy my company. It was about me. It was about filling some void that I had in me from being like the only black kid in an all white school and thinking that I think success and accolades would fill that void in some ways. But on that point of a continuum as a as a way to live your life. The other moment in my life where I which I really struggled in in terms of goal setting and motivation was when I was trying to get in shape. And then like 2017, I said to myself, I want to get a six-pack for summer. That's the goal I set myself. Really, what I was trying to find a way to stay fit forever. But I set myself this goal of getting a six-pack in summer. That was my thing. And then every single year, my motivation would only last for like four or five months and I couldn't crack how people are continually motivated to act. I've cracked it now. But what was wrong about that cuz I just heard you speak about arbitrary goals before. What is the the flaw of creating arbitrary goals in our lives and how do we create goals that are more based on that idea of a continuum? You know, I I I'm not a huge fan of the the term self-improvement, right? Um but I do like the idea of awareness, self-awareness. You know, we all live with blind spots. We all live with missing gaps and pieces of information, which will by the way last for the rest of our lives. And there are some people who choose to live a life where living with those gaps is acceptable and they never fill them in and we would say that they remain stagnant. And arguably either mentally or physically unhealthy or ga- gaining, you know, getting unhealthier as they get older, you know? For someone for anyone who who wants to be a better version of themselves, a more aware version of themselves, you you we I seek out information. And that comes in all kinds of forms, right? It can be in a relationship. Um so for example, I went and took a listening class. I should I should prefa- preface with um I was dating someone and she accused me of being a bad listener. And I was like, you do know what I do for a living, right? Like I'm a really good listener. So I don't know what you're talking about, you know? And then I took this listening class. Turns out I'm an absolutely brilliant listener with people who I'll never see again for the rest of my life. But amongst my friends and family, appalling. Appalling. So I had this basic skillset that I never applied with the people closest to me and gave myself an out because quote unquote I knew how to listen. Um and so I realized I was a terrible listener. This was a blind spot. This was a gap. And having somebody love me tell me that didn't work. Didn't believe them until, you know, this objective outsider or at least I just took this class and came to this realization. That was brilliant. That awareness of the blind spot and the awareness of the skills that I need to be a better brother, son, boyfriend, friend, you know? I had to learn how to hold space for someone. And then practice. Um that's awareness. And I think our health is awareness. Unfortunately, some people wait for the breakup to learn that they're bad listeners. Some people wait for the heart attack to realize they're eating poorly. You know, that's awareness. You get awareness by getting a punch in the face. And I think I think it's a responsibility for every human being should they want to have value in the lives of others to seek awareness in how they show up in the world and and how the world impacts them, their mental health, their physical health, their ability to maintain relationships and nurture relationships. And you hear me what you I mean, you'll hear me say this over again. It's a sort of It'll It's a repeating pattern, which is for those who want to show up better in the lives of others, which is I see being healthy as a service to others. I see being a better listener being a service. I see everything in terms of service to others. There are benefits to you as well, of course. But I I think we've neglected for decades the the socialness of our of our animal. And social media and cell phones and and the and the ubiquity of those technologies have complicated our ability to be human. Um There are others who comment on this as well. Brené Brown talks about this where we have a young generation that has mistaken vulnerability and broadcast. Right? Where you sit in your room by yourself, put your phone on record, and make a video of yourself crying because of the loss of a relationship and then posting that on Instagram or Snapchat or YouTube or TikTok or whatever your media of choice is, and the hashtag is just being vulnerable. Right? And there is nothing vulnerable about that. You were by yourself broadcasting to the world, live or videoed, it doesn't matter. Do that exact same thing with the person you hurt. That is way more difficult. Don't leave a voice memo saying, "Hey, I'm really sorry. Just taking accountability." Call them or go visit them and look them in the eye and say that exact same sentence that you just left a voice memo for. That's vulnerability. That's really hard and requires practice and we avoid it because it's difficult. We avoid it because it's uncomfortable. We choose broadcast not because it's better, it's because it's easier. And then mistake the two. And so the reason to learn to be vulnerable is not for ourselves, it's for our service to others. And I talk about this all the time, which we've confused these things. And once again, going back to what we were talking about before, we've weirdly taken these very prosocial activities and made them selfish. Like go us. Uh my my biggest pet I'll give you my biggest pet peeve and I've talked about this one before, but it drives me nuts. I was at this meet I was in this meeting once and there was a a woman next to me who was this big time yoga instructor, apparently. And the entire meeting was a was a big group of us. She was on her phone under the under the desk, under the table. And I sort of sneaked over a look and it's not like she was like there was a family member in hospital and she wanted to just, you know, stay in touch. She was on social media, I could see. Right? And at one point the conversation at the table turned to being present. And she popped up her head and said, "That's why I love yoga cuz it helps me be present." Of which I'm thinking, "You're an idiot." You know? And I started to realize we've confused things here, which is we don't get to decide when we're present. We get to practice being present. But you actually are not present until someone else says you are. You know, you don't get to sit with a friend and be like, "I feel present." If they don't feel it. That's like me saying I'm a great listener except I'm not. Right? I don't get to self-assign these accolades, especially when they're social. They can only be assigned by another. And so for anyone who's ever practiced meditation, there are absolutely benefits to us without a doubt. And it is Those are important mental and physical health benefits of meditation and mindfulness and we should practice those for sure. But there's also that what I think is the primary reason, some would consider secondary reason, which is if you practice meditation for example, you learn to focus on one thing, your mantra, a sound, whatever it is. You learn to your breath, you learn to You don't Nobody You don't think of nothing. You think of one thing. Focus on one thing, right? And if something interrupts that thing, you have a thought. Did I leave the washing machine on? You know? You label it a thought and you push it out of your head and you say, "I'll deal with it later." And that's the whole the whole idea is total focus and the ability to put your thoughts out of your head to stay focused on this one thing. Now think about when you're sitting listening with a friend who's going through a hard time. Are you listening or you waiting for your turn to speak? Right? The whole meditation practice that you've been doing is now valuable in this moment where you're focused entirely on what they're saying to you. Every distraction, every screech of a car tire outside, everybody who's talking around you, you don't hear any of it. You only hear what they're saying to you. You're entirely focused on what they're saying to you. And when you have your own thoughts of advice you'd like to give or things you want to tell them oh my god me too that happened to me as well, right? You say nope, that's not important in this moment and you put it out of your head and deal with it later. And at the end of that conversation your friend will say, "Thank you. I feel heard." Or "Thank you for being there for me." Or "Thank you for holding space for me." Or "Thank you for listening." And those are all uh indications that congratulations you've been present for another. And I think what gives our lives purpose is not to wake up every morning to learn meditation so that we can be present for ourselves, though that is valuable. What gives our lives purpose is to do these things for another. There's nothing wrong with doing things and enjoying the benefit of those things yourself by all means. But the sense of the deep feeling sense of purpose and meaning to one's life or to one's work only comes when those things are for another. And in my view, primarily for another where our benefit is secondary. You can't have equal. There's no such thing as equal because at one point one of those things will have to be sacrificed for the other. And do you sacrifice your spouse's love so that you can stay in love or do you sacrifice your comfort? Do you sacrifice your girlfriend, boyfriend, spouse's comfort so that you can be better or do you sacrifice your comfort so they can feel better? That's an obvious it's obvious. Well, it's the same here. It's the same analogy. Which is I choose to sacrifice my my happiness, my joy, my comfort, my Lamborghini in this moment, not forever, but in this moment for you. For you, my employee. For you, my friend. You know? Um I will delay so that you can have. And that's where the joy and love of business, relationships, friendships come from. You know? There's a great irony in it in all of this, which is to sacrifice for another it really is the most beautiful thing we can ever do. I mean that's kind of what love is. It's sacrificing for another. Um and all of these things, whether it's you learning to be a better communicator, learning mindfulness and meditation, being in shape. If you can translate those things in for another it all of those things start to have a a higher purpose. In the case of health, doing it for another, you're saying that it would be so that I can be here longer for my family would be a much more joyful if I had children for example. Sure. As long as it's real. Mhm. It can't be generic. Right. It can't you just can't you can't just put it out there just so it's fills the you know Mad Libs and you fill the gap. You know, it's got to you got to actually feel it that that that actually is the purpose. I'll give you one then. So part of I do think about this and I thought about this last night when I was in the gym was in part I think I work out because I want to be healthy and in shape for my for my girlfriend. Like I want to be I want our relationship to be good. I want us to be able to be active together. I want her to be attracted by me when I'm naked. You know, like and I I I had a debate with my team as to like whether that's a noble reason to work out. And should we have a feel an obligation or whatever to be in shape for our other half? I think to be healthy for our other half for sure. you think the aesthetic stuff is a bit I think it's fine. I mean I think the aesthetic stuff is about confidence, right? Which is I'm sure she'll love you even if you're chubby. You know, I'm sure she'll love you even if you don't have a six pack. You know? But if it makes you feel confident then it's like people have nose jobs, you know? Like somebody says you can't have a nose job. Why are you Well, if it makes them feel better about themselves then how can we argue with it? Like if they if they went from being really really insecure and hiding their faces or bad teeth and they never wanted to smile to fixing their teeth and now they smile all the time Mhm. Like why why should we tell them they can't? Now, of course there's a line. Getting addicted to plastic surgery is something different. And there is a line. But you know, getting your teeth done or getting a nose job to make yourself feel better is it's fine if it builds your confidence. So if it builds your confidence and then and it's a and you're doing it in a healthy way Mhm. you know? Then you know, it's like how can somebody argue that you shouldn't be exercising cuz it looks at Now again, there is a line. There are some people who actually overdo it where if they stop exercising and they gain a tiny bit of weight they actually spiral. Mhm. There is a line where they're actually not building confidence they're actually building insecurity. Mhm. But some of these things don't have to be big and lofty they can be ridiculously small. Like so for example for me you know? I'm very good at um disappointing myself. Like I have no problem disappointing myself, right? Like I'll wake up in the morning 2 hours before my alarm and I'll say to myself, "You should work out. Like you're up super early. You've got a busy day and you just got an extra 2 hours. You could like use 30 minutes of that to work out. Get out of bed." I'm like, I'll sit in bed for 2 hours and just like read the newspaper and play Wordle. You know? And 2 hours will go by and I won't work out. Do I have any guilt? None. I'm just like uh you're an idiot Simon, right? Now, if I'm meeting someone at the gym at 7:30 because we're going to work out, I'll be there. I won't let somebody down. I'm okay letting myself down, but I won't let somebody else down. So for me my purpose sometimes is very in the moment. Like I'm doing this for them. It's like you know, when I when I would run you know, one of the reasons I stayed in good running shape is because when I ran with my running buddy I never wanted to ruin their run. If they wanted to keep a slightly higher pace I could keep it. So it doesn't always have to be big and lofty. Sometimes it can be in the moment. When you talked about awareness there and the importance of trying to become more aware about ourselves and one of the things that made you aware was that conversation with your partner. Yeah. Where they said you don't listen. You're a shitty listener. Yeah. Um self-awareness what I don't know if that's a real thing, but self-awareness um seems to be the the foundation of correct personal growth, right? So becoming aware about something in our lives and people can read as I always say about people can read as many books as they like, but if they're unable to read themselves they'll never really learn a thing. Mhm. For me it and I I I wrote that couple years ago when I had a guy in my office who read every single He was actually one of the people that always came with your books, right? Mhm. He read every single book I've ever seen. He knew every book. But he never changed. Yeah. And and he and there was things within him that he wasn't self-aware about that I believe were the reason why he couldn't evolve even though he was taking in so much information. How does one go about What are the the the key ways we can go about increasing our sense of self-awareness so that we can grow and evolve? Such a good question. You know, it's kind of like people like that are a little bit like yo-yo dieters, you know? It's like they they do every diet, but they're not healthy people. I read every book, but I'm not growing. And you can't assess yourself. You know, it's like can you I mean you know this from work, right? Which is at some point somebody's going to have to give you feedback. At some point you have to give somebody else feedback. Like self-assessment is a thing, but it's not the only thing. It's a thing. It's a data point. And I'm a huge believer in self-assessment, but you have to have that buttressed with the assessments of others because we are blind very often. We're social animals. We cannot do this thing called career or life alone. We're just not that smart. We're not that strong. We're not that aware. We're just not that good. As social animals we actually need each other to watch our backs and tell us what's working and what's not working. And I think for somebody who goes through life and reads those books, all the books, you know I get good on them I guess, but are they asking for help? Are they asking for uh insight from others as opposed to just reading it and agreeing with it and thinking they're making the changes. I know my own personal journey and I try I do think of myself as I I I work hard to be self-aware and I work hard to self-evaluate. But I I have seen in my own life my ability to truly demonstrate real awareness um and move further down the the journey and path called life as opposed to staying stagnant came when I let others help me. You know, we we don't build trust by offering help. We build trust by asking for it. Because it's a vulnerable thing to ask for help. "Will you help me?" is a very very vulnerable statement. "Can I help you?" Not so much. An act of service. But the act of service really comes from allowing somebody else to serve you. Which it becomes this whole weird twisted circular thing. You know? Mhm. It's like I mean I'll give you a silly example. People who are bad at taking compliments. Right? "You're so smart." No no no no no no, right? We downplay it because we're embarrassed by the compliment. Right? But a compliment is a gift. Somebody's paying you a gift. Now if somebody handed you a present you wouldn't push it back because it would be rude. Right? You would accept it. Whether you like it or not or whether it makes you comfortable or not you accept it with gratitude and then you go evaluate it later. Oh, that's an ugly sweater. You know? But you're still grateful for the thought and the gift. And a compliment's the same. And I think all of these things, the willingness to you know, to deny someone else the joy of giving you the gift of the compliment. And to deny someone else the intensity and joy of being there for someone else again I think is selfish. Never asking for help is selfish. Asking for help is a great act of service cuz you allow someone else to have the joy of sacrifice. And it goes backwards and forwards. It's not one-sided. And this is where I think great relationships work, which is we take turns. And sometimes it's really difficult when both of us are in need at the same time. That's gets really difficult. Good thing we have friends. So you know, at the height of COVID um I I have a couple of my friends they're sort of remarkable high-performing individuals, both of them. And one of them called me out of the blue. She went for a long walk. She says, "I'm doing really badly. And I need to talk to you. And I don't want to talk to my husband because he's doing really badly as well. And I fear that if I talk to him, he doesn't have the energy for me, but I know he will want to be there for me, which will make it worse for him. We're both really struggling. Can Do you have some time to talk?" You know? And I mean A, the willingness to ask for help. B, the willingness to understand that asking her husband for help would made it even more difficult for him. It was just a very sophisticated and beautiful moment. And to this day, we became And not only did we become closer for it, but her husband and I became closer for it as well because I was there for her when he knew he couldn't be. And this is why we have friends. Like again, we can't do this alone. Not only are we social animals, we're tribal animals. You know, it's more than a friend. It takes a community. Um and I think one of the, you know, we're always talking about what we're eating and we're talking about what we're, you know, what you know, what supplement we're taking or we're always talking about those kinds of things or what book we're reading. But we we don't do enough talking about how we are nursing our close personal relationships, how we're taking care of those closest to us and making sure that the tribe is strong. Um the crew is taken care of, you know? Um and I think there's a lot more work that we can do in that arena. Is there practical things that you do with colleagues, partners, friends to create that culture of seeking feedback, being open, being truly vulnerable? You know, some people say, "Oh, we'll have we'll sit down with our diary and we'll write we'll do this exercise." Or you might have seen in organizations where they do like 360 feedback things. Is there Is there practical things we can do to create a culture of seeking out that feedback and creating a safe space? Well, the simple answer is of course. Um the there's no such thing as a a single silver bullet. It's a combination of things. It's like, "What's the one thing I can do to happy have a happy relationship?" Well, I I can't I can tell you a important thing, but I can't tell you the important thing. So, it's the same. Um and everybody's a little different, you know, and each culture is a little different. So, there's there's not even a set list thing. Okay, but there's some things that people can choose from. You know, one thing is one of the ways we create space is how we react. Right? If someone gives you feedback and you deny it, well, that's a problem. If somebody gives you hard feedback and you thank them for it, it's a very different environment it creates. So, I I I'll give you two examples. One a lesson, the other one a practical example that someone can use. So, I had the opportunity to visit the Army Rangers Ranger School in particular. And uh where they make they they make Army Rangers. And one of the troubles they had a a bunch of years ago was they had these folks that they called spotlight Rangers, which was they were really good at their job. Like they were brilliant at all the tasks that were set to them. Strong. They're the teachers, the instructors loved them. They stood out. They were great. They were motivated. But as soon as the spotlight was turned off, when the instructor wasn't there and they were back at barracks, they were [ __ ] And the only person who the only people who knew were their were their friends and colleagues because the spotlight was turned off. And so, the Army Rangers implemented a system of peer review in order to identify spotlight Rangers. And in now By the way, they started this 40 years ago, which I find incredibly advanced. Um but to advance through Ranger School, you need to pass three tests. You need your instructor to say, "Yep, you're ready to go to the next level." You need to physically actually perform all the tasks required of you. And you need to pass your peer review. Um and if you fail any one of those three, you don't make it to the next level. Interesting. And so, that becomes a an an equally weighted component of advancement in the Army Rangers, which is what kind of team player are you, which I love. So, we implemented a system of 360 review, um which was sort of a bit of an amalgamation of things we'd taken from other groups and made our own. Where what we what the way it works is um you take the the group of people you have regular interaction with and you um fill out uh your top three weaknesses or the places you believe you need to grow the most. With a specific example for each. So, top three specific weaknesses or or or places you need to grow the most. And then top three specific strengths or the places you believe three examples of the places you believe you've grown the most. They have to be specific. Not like, "Oh, I'm a much better timekeeper now." No, that You've got to give some specific examples. They're collated and distributed amongst the team. And then you come together as a group and you take turns reading them. So, first you read your own weaknesses. And then the group has the opportunity to add to that list. And here's the best part. We give a little speech before the whole exercise that the people who are going to give you this feedback really don't want to. It's really uncomfortable for them. It's going to be uh they they would just rather not do this exercise at all. But they're going to do it because they want to see you and help you grow. And so, what they're giving you is a gift. And so, you have to receive it as a gift, which means you say thank you. You don't have to agree with it. If you don't agree with it, say thank you and just dismiss it. It's fine. But if it has an emotional impact, if it makes you angry or frustrated, it's probably true. Right? And we go around the room and somebody tell they every people can add to this list of these weaknesses in any way that they there's no format. They can do it in any way they want. And you sit there and you look them in the eye and you genuinely say, "Thank you." You're not allowed to say a word except thank you. Then you do your strengths and you read your three strengths and anyone can add to the list. And just as you discovered you have blind spots you didn't know you have, you discover that you have strengths that you didn't know you had, that you're having a positive impact on the lives of others that you didn't know you were. And it's a magical experience. There's usually tears at some point because it's powerful. And it's a safe environment. I wouldn't recommend an organization start there. I would recommend you build towards that because you're going to put very senior people and very junior people in the same room and they're going to have very blunt conversations with each other. And it's it's real. Right? It's not a place to start, but it is a place to get to. I mean, there are variations for it. That one takes a lot of time. You know, we've we've very we varied it so where everybody's responsible for to do it and you can you have two people assigned and you can choose one or two people to join and you just have a smaller a smaller group when you want to do it, you know? And it's just for you. So, the others don't do it in that moment. It's it's a little more efficient to do it that way. Um but there's no right or wrong way. I really love that idea of the promotion being contingent on not just the your manager or your the CEO believing that you are X, Y, and Z, but getting peer reviewed by the colleagues around you because I one of the things I noticed in my company, we had and when I left there was about 700 people, but I would have I would hear reports about a particular team member and the reports I would get back about their character and their conduct never matched the way they treated me. Mhm. So, they would always treat me, of course, amazingly, right? Of course, right? And then I'd hear that they treated this person like this and they did this. And I'd go, "Really?" And they go, "Yeah." I go, "Really? They they were always so nice to me." And I obviously on that basis I would have promoted that individual and thought they were great. So, that's definitely something I'll implement. It's called the tree of monkeys, by the way. the tree of monkeys, which is um all the people at the top looking down see only smiles, but all the people at the bottom looking up see only [ __ ] Oh [ __ ] yeah, that makes perfect sense. I've never I've never heard that analogy. And again, you there's you don't have to do you don't have to you mean there's again, there's different cultures can accept different, you know, there's no right or wrong here. You know, and some cultures may want to implement a peer review that gets included in in a promotion package, but it doesn't have to be that. Good leadership helps there as well, which is every senior person knows that they don't get the truth. I mean, even if your people are wonderful and fantastic, people want to tell you the right answer not because they're trying to lie to you, but they want to please you. Like you you knew the more senior you got, it was harder and harder to get the truth. And every senior leader knows that it's hard to get the truth. Every great senior leader also has spies. Somebody that maybe you started you were friends with that people don't know you're friends with or you came up through the ranks of the organization together, but your career went a little further, a little quicker. You know, that you have these trusted relationships that you can just get a little inside scoop as to what's really going on. Um also, this is the hardest one, is or at least it's a hard one, learning to replace uh judgment with curiosity. So, somebody comes to you and says, "That person is a problem." And all of a sudden we create a narrative based on the story that they tell us that they are a problem. That person's stupid. That person's lazy, whatever it is. Now they're labeled as lazy. Now we treat them as lazy. Now everything that they do or don't do because they're lazy, right? Um but as a good leader, we want to we can take those reports. We can take that hearsay. We can take those direct stories that people have and we can say, "Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll look into it. I'm going to find out more." And you go on a little journey to discover what's really happening. It absolutely may be that they're lazy. That could 100% be it. Or maybe they're distracted for a reason, or maybe they're having sh- trouble at home, or maybe we've given them a job that they're ill-qualified for, or maybe they're having a personality conflict with somebody that they work with. Like, the list goes on and on and on and on. And the good leader is finding that out. And by the way, by leader I don't mean the senior person. I mean any person in the organization. Um to replace that judgment with curiosity, and I think that's what creates those environments. But the reality is is with rank, you do set the tone. So, for example, um no lying. That seems like a pretty simple one inside a company. We don't tell lies. Okay? Phone rings. Your assistant picks up. Uh they put the person on hold, and they call out to you. Uh David's on the phone. And you go, "Tell him I'm not here." You've just sanctioned a lie. Right? And that little lie then, now that person who was told to lie, s- approvingly, now they can tell a lie, right? Because came from the boss. And all of a sudden, you find out you have an organization that tells lies all over the place, and some of those lies grow. It happened to me once where um I had a very, very senior phone call with the top leaders of really big organization. Like, and I forgot. I just didn't show up on the call. I just I have no no excuse. I just I forgot to check my calendar, and I forgot. And my assistant at the time, of course, wanted to protect my reputation. And she wrote to them and said, "Terribly sorry. Simon had another meeting that ran long." And I took her aside, and it was the hardest feedback I had to give, because she did it with such good intention. I said, "I am so grateful. I'm so grateful that you're protecting me, and you're protecting my reputation. And I want you to do that. But you have to do that without lying. We cannot lie. You can say, "I'm sorry he's late. I'm sorry he missed the call." But you cannot say it's because he was in another meeting, cuz that's not true. And so that you it's this you know, I I mean, I'll challenge you I you try this. Right? Let's look at the time right now, right? It's it's noon. Okay? It's noon on a I don't even know what day it is. Monday, right? You and your entire crew, here's the challenge for all of you, okay? You may not tell a single lie for the next 48 hours. I mean, nothing. And you'll be amazed how difficult it is. You'll be amazed how many little white lies we tell. Like, the waiter comes over, and 5 minutes before you're saying, "Ugh, this food is so salty." And the waiter comes and goes, "How's everything?" You go, "It's fine. Everything's fine. Yeah, thank you. It's fine." That is a lie. Right? Now, you don't have to be mean. There's nothing that says truth has to be brutal. It just has to be true. Try for the next 48 hours and see how hard it is not to tell a single lie. Everyone's going to be walking around asking each other what they think of each other. Now Simon said you've got to be honest. Right, but there's ways of doing it, right? Like, so um do these jeans make me look fat? I like the other jeans much better. They're way more flattering. Right? You don't have to hurt people. Also, timing. Right? So, a true story. So, I went to see a friend's play. And uh I I could not wait for this thing to end. It was so bad. And I went out, you know, to say hi to her after the performance, and she came out. She was still in costume and makeup. And she knows I'm an honest broker. She cares about what I She knows I'll always tell her the truth in these kinds of things. And she says to me, "What did you think?" Now now is not the time and place. She's pumped up full of adrenaline. And now is not the time for me to give her a critical evaluation of of this god-awful performance. And so, I sidestep the question, but said something true. I said, "Ugh, it was such a treat to be here to see you do your thing. You know, I've been wanting to see you on the stage forever, and it was so much fun to see you on the stage." All of that was true. The next day, when the adrenaline had come down, and I called her up and said, "Can I tell you what I thought about the play?" She goes, "Yeah, of course." And I told her critically, piece by piece, what I thought about it and how bad it was. We had a perfectly rational conversation about it. Didn't hurt her feelings. The day before I would have really hurt her feelings. So, not everything has to be We mistake being honest with being honest now. No, I can't lie. And I have to answer the question. But I can answer it tomorrow when the conditions are better for that message to be received. What is so insidious, or what is so harmful? What is the long-term negative impact of creating that culture of lying within teams and within ourselves? Well, there's a there's this there's this uh psychological uh um phenomenon, I guess, called ethical fading. Uh which can grip an organization's culture, where people within that culture become capable of making highly, highly unethical decisions, believing they were well within their own ethical frameworks. Right? So, extreme examples are things like pharmaceutical companies who have a patent on an essential drug. And in order to meet or beat some financial projection, they raise the price of that essential drug 100%, 500%, 1,000%, 1,500%. Totally legal. There's nothing illegal about that. Really unethical. Right? And in organizations that suffer ethical fading, it almost always, if not always, starts from the top. It's usually a leadership problem. It comes from excessive amounts of pressure to hit certain short-term goals, to the point where doing it ethically becomes more and more difficult. And so, what creates the ethical fading is a series of things. One of those things is um we we we rationalize. Right? We look for ways to distance ourselves from the impact of our decisions. We say things like, "It's what you got to do to get ahead. It's what my boss wants. Um everyone's doing it. It's the system. I don't have a choice. Right? Um and there are there are ways we can disassociate our responsibility. Right? So, rationalizing is a big part of it. Another part is the old slippery slope. You did it once. You did it a little bit. It worked. We raised the price 10%. Nobody even noticed. Great. Do it again. Do do 20% this time. Try 100%. And it just keeps going and going and going and going before you have full-blown ethical fading. And um some of the things are excessive use of euphemisms. Again, we're using language to disassociate ourselves from the impact of our decisions. So, for example, you know, um we we in the United States would never torture, but enhanced interrogation, that sounds very appealing. Right? Or companies would never spy on their customers, but data mining, yeah, no, we're really into that. Right? Um we're just using different language to to mask the insidiousness of our real decisions. Like, everybody talks about managing externalities. But we don't talk about the damage we're doing to the people and cultures, environments of the places where our offices and factories are located. Why don't you have that conversation? And so, when you have enough of those things, you s- ethical fading shows up, where you now have real issues. And in the extreme, you have massive scandals. Sometimes it leads to illegal activity, but usually it's just unethical scandals. And when those things happen, management is dragged out, and they talk to the newspaper to the law, and they always say the same thing, which is, "We we broke no laws. Everything we did was legal." No, we don't have an issue with the law. We have an issue with your ethics. Um but when you don't have when it's not full-blown, it just becomes an incredibly uncomfortable and a horrible place to work. That increases stress to the point where you'll do damage to your own health, and you'll do damage to the way you treat your family. Because when you're under that kind of stress to violate your own ethics at work, um you're going to come home, you're going to take it out on your your spouse and your kids. You're going to kick the dog. Um you're not going to be motivated to do much except sit on the sit on the couch and watch TV. You know? So, it has it has some pretty insidious uh impact in the lives of human beings. I was thinking of it as well in terms of romantic relationships. One little white lie becomes another little white lie, and then a couple of, you know, a year passes, and you're so unaligned and so far from your truth that you're resentful that you're having to keep up with this set of lies. I mean, we I've talked about it with a guest on this podcast before. One one of mistakes I made in my relationship at the start was I would say yes to things that I didn't like doing. Yeah. So, I created this culture, and this also this like expectation where my my partner thought I loved doing X activity at 6:00 a.m. in the morning, cuz I'd always said yes, and I'd always pretended to like it. Now I have to live out that life of something I do not enjoy doing, because I lied at the start. And the journey back is not always so easy when you've I I I I've made the same mistake on the other side, which is after I broke up with someone when we maintained a friendship. And I started dating somebody, or at least started dating, but I didn't want to hurt the feelings of this person I still care about that we broke up, you know, a couple months before. Um and so, if she I would avoid the conversation, but if she said, "Are you dating anybody?" I'd say, "No, not really." And it's not because I wanted to lie, it's because I don't want to hurt her. Like, the intention, of course, is positive. But what I learned later is all of those little lies meant that sh- she was holding out hope that wasn't there. And by the way, I'm it's been done to me as well. I'm holding out hope that's not there, because someone didn't want to hurt my feelings. And I would rather just have the uncomfortable conversation. Are you dating somebody? You are. Okay, well that hurts, but I can heal. I can move on. And you know, again, this young generation, because of all the reasons we've talked about and more, seems to exhibit the traits of being very conflict avoidant. Very uncomfortable with uncomfortable. Um that has some impact that are sometimes funny, quote unquote, but always tend to make somebody feel more lonely. So, for example, and I've seen this happen I've heard about these stories so many times. A a young employee who may feel they're in line for a raise, but is so uncomfortable to go and to their boss and ask for a raise, that they just quit. That they would rather quit than have an uncomfortable conversation. And then sometimes it is followed by a an angry email that says, "I'm undervalued. You don't appreciate me. You underpay me." You know? And and I've I've I've heard it happen so many times where the leadership is like, "What what? We would have happily I like I'm sorry we we were either planning on giving you a raise, we'd happily give you a raise, you know?" And it's really uncomfortable to walk in your boss's office and be like, "Hey, I'm working really hard. Can I have a raise, please?" Now, the time you do get to quit is when you've had this conversation four, five, six times and you've seen nothing and had no feedback and had no impact, then absolutely you quit. And absolutely you say, "You undervalue me. You underappreciate me. We've under underappreciate me. We've had this conversation five or six times." Then it's their fault. Because they had all the information. But again, it's really funny how many young kids are would were they they would rather quit than have a difficult conversation. Or they'd rather break up than have a difficult conversation. Or worse, they'd rather go someone than break up with them. Because it's really uncomfortable to have a fight and a breakup and call each other names. It's much easier to just turn off all the social media, un- unfollow everywhere. I know we've been dating for 6 months, but I'm just going to now ignore every text, ignore all your calls, and think about it from the we talk about service. Think about the service or disservice we do the other person for their their point of view. It's like you got in a car accident. It's like you were just killed. It's like you just disappeared off the planet. That is trauma. Because you're uncomfortable to have an uncomfortable conversation, you would do that to so another person. So, service goes both ways. Which is I will make myself uncomfortable and have a difficult conversation, even if I bumble it and screw it up and it ends up being a screaming match. Because that is a better option than traumatizing a person where they have to believe that I've first of all that I've died, because they can't get hold of me in the panic. And then when they realize I'm alive, because they see me on Instagram, that now I've destroyed their self-confidence. How dare somebody do that to another human being? Because you're just a little uncomfortable of having an uncomfortable conversation. Where we can help is we can teach people how to have uncomfortable conversations. That is a skill set. We don't teach leaders how to have uncomfortable conversations. We don't teach students how to have uncomfortable conversations. We don't teach, you know, we can teach these things all over the place. And I think it's I think it's a big gaping hole in curriculum. We teach, you know, maths and we teach English, but we don't teach social interaction. We don't teach listening. We don't we don't teach how to have uncomfortable conversations. We don't teach how to give and receive feedback. You know? Now, you tell me which is going to be more valuable for the rest of your life. How to have a difficult conversation or trigonometry? Yeah. And shouldn't we be, you know, isn't this shouldn't we be preparing people for life? Mhm. I have a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. As the seasons have begun to change, so has my diet. And um right now, I'm just going to be completely honest with you, I'm starting to think a lot about slimming down a little bit, because over the last couple of probably the last four or five months, my diet has been pretty bad. Um and it's started to show a little bit. Really over the last 2 months. I go to the gym about 80% of the time. So, I track it with 10 of my friends in a WhatsApp group and this tracker online that we all use together. We call it fitness blockchain. And I'm currently at 81%. Um so, 81% of the days I've done a workout in the last 150 days, right? So, I'm going to the gym about six times a week. That's been a little bit impacted by the Diary of a CEO live tour, but I'm trying to stick to it. And so, one of the things I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake and trying to get back to being nutritionally complete in all I eat is I'm having the Huel protein shake. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one. On that point of that new generation in the workplace and how they're they're exhibiting traits of being a little bit more cowardly in terms of having those difficult conversations. You made a video about millennials in the workplace that did probably hundreds of millions of views. Yeah. I remember seeing it on Facebook maybe 5 years ago. And it just I think it had 50 million views on that one video, but across YouTube it's got tens of millions of views on many, many different videos. Yeah. Um but I'm thinking now about that new generation that you've described, that younger generation, that Gen Z generation that are emerging into the like post-COVID world. Mhm. What is the workplace for them? What it How do I as a leader make sure that if I'm hiring Gen Z and I've got a couple even in this room that work in my company, what have we got to know about them and do to make sure that they thrive, stay motivated, and achieve their goals? Uh this is my own bias. I don't like the conversation of strengths and weaknesses. Um you know, it's the famous question, you know, in an interview, "What's your biggest weakness?" Well, I'm a perfectionist, you know? Uh I don't like the conversations of strengths and weaknesses, because um strengths often have liability. I'm really confident. Okay, in the wrong context, you're arrogant. Right? But weaknesses also have silver linings. So, for me, I'm chronically disorganized. I'm terrible, right? Every system app I've works for like a week and then I'm back to being disorganized. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Now, for years I used to beat myself up for it and say it's a bad thing. It's a it's a terrible weakness. But the reality is it's context. So, I was at this as a young entrepreneur as at this networking event and I met this guy who was like really impressed with what I had to say with my pitch and he's like, "Simon, we have to do work together. Here's my business card. Call me, let's do this." And I lost the business card basically as soon as he gave it to me. So, anybody who was organized would be sending a text from the taxi or at least sending an email the next day. Not Yahoo over here. I lost the business card. There was no way for me to find out what this important piece of business would have led to, because I lost the card. Two weeks later, I found the business card at the bottom of a briefcase. So, I emailed him and said, "Hey, do you remember we met 2 weeks ago? You know, I'd love to reconnect and see if we can work together still." He wanted to work with me more, because he thought I was busy. So, strength or weakness? The answer is it depends. Now, in general, yes, it is a weakness, it's a liability, and it causes me great stress. But not always is the point. And so, yes, it's important for us to understand our characteristics that we exhibit, of which some of them in the con- in certain contexts are huge strength and some of the the exact same characteristics in the wrong context are huge weaknesses. Right? So, it's very it's we have to be very careful when we label people or generations as being strong or weak, because the answer is it depends. Okay, so that's the preface. So, we talk about this young generation, young the the Gen Z generation. They exhibit many of the same characteristics as the previous generation, but they're quite different in the sense that they're very activist. Right? So, for example, in the 1950s and '60s, people hated their jobs back then, too. They just went to work every day and just suffered in silence. You know, by the time you get to the '80s and '90s, people hated their jobs, but then they'd at least start talking around about it around the office saying, "You know, this this job kind of sucks a little bit." You know? And then by the time you get sort of the 2000s, people start speaking up to their bosses saying, "I think we should make it better to work here." You know? And now you in this young generation and they're just like they're like standing up and quitting and like and I love it, right? And and and they organize. They're much more, you know, the previous generation would like hashtag tweet my discontent as I'm sitting in my Uber on my way to brunch. You know, but this young generation gets out and organizes and comes together. Plus or minus? Depends. Sometimes it's a huge strength, the fact that they have that kind of energy. But sometimes, as we've talked about as well, they also have the energy to quit instead of having an uncomfortable conversation. So, strength or weakness? It depends. And so, I think the way we have to approach all of these things is with empathy. Which is instead of uh uh deciding if it's a strength or weakness, to try and understand where it comes from. Cuz I can say this generation is irresponsible and will quit before they ask for a a a raise. Or I can say, "Why is it that they're quitting before they get a when they just need a raise?" What's mis- what's what's what happened between A and B in that thought in those two actions? You know? And I'm like, "Oh, they just missed the skill set. Oh, we can totally figure that one out. That one's an easy fix." So, I'm not labeling a whole person or a whole generation. I'm not rather recognizing that there is gaps of uh skills, which we all have. So, when you ask me about any of the generations, and they all have strengths and they all have liabilities. And depending on the time frame and the context, sometimes sometimes those strengths also become old-fashioned, no longer necessary. You know, they can still cause frustration, they can still cause confusion. You know, we're still looking through them at our through our own prisms of our own generation. I've definitely caught myself doing it. You know, I do do it. My goodness, we never did that when we were kids. You know, when I was their age, I'm actually saying that now. But um I think the the the trial the the the the test is the practice of empathy, which is another skill that we can teach that's missing. How is this the the COVID experiment on the workforce and the workplace? So, how do like business leaders or business owners need to adjust in order to make sure we don't lose people and become an un- compelling, unattractive place to work in this post-COVID era? And also on the point you talked about earlier about the importance of like we're social animals and we need that social connection and we're being kind of we're optimizing that out of our lives. It feels to me like this remote working thing has has exacerbated the issue because we're, you know, for for young people it's you know, I think that the office is one of the few institutions we have left where we are in person. We no longer get dating, we do that on apps. Food, we don't go to restaurants anymore, we just order Uber Eats. And now work they're telling us is going to be done from Zoom. I'm like, what do we have left? Yeah, lonely. We're we're going to be lonely. And it's not a coincidence that we see rising rates of depression, anxiety, suicide, you know, especially in in younger generations. So, you know, it's not causal, but it's there's definitely a correlation. You know, it reminds me of when um and I'm old enough for this, some of your listeners are not, but I remember when the internet showed up and e-commerce started. And I remember some of the people who were really into the tech running around thinking this is the death of bricks and mortars, there will never be stores again. And now Amazon opened stores and Rent the Runway opened stores and turns out it's the extremes are not great places, you know? It's not the death, it's live alongside, they become different animals. They become different reasons. We go to shops not to get the best deal. You go to you go to you go to websites to get the best deal. You go to shops because it's fun. You go to shops to try stuff on. You go to shops because it's an activity because we our hunter-gatherer instincts, we like foraging and looking for things. It's entertainment. We enjoy the service aspect, you know? It's with our friends. Sometimes it's not about the shops at all, it's just a a place something to do with our friends. Place plays a different role. And the smart retailers know that. And so when we talk about work, it's the same. It's the death of the corporate headquarters, it's the death of the office. I'm like, uh is it though? You know, the reality is there's going to be somewhere in the middle. And I think one thing with all the predictions about what the future of work looks like, I think one thing we can be absolutely sure of is there'll be more flexibility. Where you know, where it used to be, "Hey boss, can I take off next Friday? Can I work from home next Friday? I have to stay home for whatever, right?" becomes emailing in the morning saying I'm working from home today and everybody's just fine with it. You know, introverts liking work working from home, extroverts liking working at the office. But at the same time, sometimes extroverts should stay home because it they can get more work done and sometimes introverts need to come to the office because they need to connect and and and we want you to be a part of the culture. And so, I don't think, you know, making any predictions about what it will look like I think is a little foolish at this time. We know it'll be some sort of amalgamation, we know it'll be more flexible and probably every office will be slightly different and it'll fit whatever their culture is. And I think the office environment will become one of the selling selling things, which is if somebody really hates this office environment, they'll find another company that where they like the office environment. But I think what's really interesting about the great resignation, what's being talked about less in the great resignation is sort of the reasons for it. Some people talk about the government checks that we've gotten, that runs out, so that's not a main reason for it. People talk about uh how people are quitting to follow their dreams. You know, I've always wanted to be an actor or a writer. Great. And that is definitely a percentage and I and I love that, but that's not those numbers aren't big enough. I think what I think is more interesting is that the great resignation is an indictment on decades of substandard corporate culture and poor leadership. Where and it because it's a big deal that we're seeing people especially at at um frontline level jobs, which um where leadership used to say of them, "They should just be happy to have a job, right?" Um that that those people are quitting without new jobs necessarily is a big deal. Um and they're definitely not all just following their dreams. I think it is because in the past, you know, when you ask those people, "How's work?" And they'd be like, "It's fine." Is it good? No, it's it's fine. It's a job. It's fine. Well, why don't you quit? Because the unknown was way scarier than fine. And so they made do with fine and leadership took advantage. A lot of corporate managers took advantage of the fact that they could get away with fine. We could do the minimum because they're not going to leave. They they're lucky to have a job and what are they going to go out there in the the great unknown? Fine is fine. And then COVID happened. And a lot of people were laid off, a lot of people lost their jobs, a lot of people were furloughed. Some people kept their jobs, but just lived in fear. And we all kind of made it out okay. We ate, we had food, you know? Um most people made it okay. Uh even if it was difficult, they made it through. And so all of a sudden the great unknown a lot less scary. And so when you're offering me fine, I choose unknown. That's a better option. In fact, not only do I choose unknown, I'm going to wait until you fix fine. And I don't think enough companies are recognizing that the great resignation is an indictment, that the great resignation is a a wag of the finger that you have been getting away with substandard culture and poor leadership for too long and you better fix your stuff. And I think the companies that will have the huge advantages is not the the companies that get the balance of in-person or or or or uh or online work right. I don't think that's what makes it. I think the companies that get the huge advantage moving forward are the ones that teach leadership to their leaders, that teach these human skills that we've been talking about, that create a corporate environment and a and a corporate culture that I want to go to every day and I actually form good strong bonds with my new tribe, with the people I go to work with. And I'm willing to sacrifice and not get everything exactly how I want it because I'd rather be here and serve these wonderful group of people. Those are the companies that will have the huge advantage over the next decades or two. One of the things that I saw in that post-COVID period was in my company in particular was our one of the things that I believe and from our our research at the time, I'm no longer with this company so I can kind of talk about it um with a bit more honesty. In our in our questionnaires, we would see that a lot of the reason why people loved to come and work there was because of the the company culture. We'd done we'd gone to extreme lengths, we had like five people that were just in charge of happiness, they called the happiness team. We paid for everyone's mental health therapy. It was a very it was the it was in terms of flexibility what the world is like now, where you can decide for yourself when you work. And then when COVID came around, we were like known for that in the UK. Like the BBC had done a piece, is this the best place to work? When COVID came around, it smashed our USP because it and this is why I almost viewed it as a leveler because now everyone was working from their laptop at home in their boxer shorts. So now what I think I saw was our employees were going to some degree, "I can work at home in my boxer shorts for this company or I can work at home in my boxer shorts for this company where they'll pay me double." Yeah. And and that shift was and it was terrifying for us because that's when we started to see people leaving because they would go, "Oh well, this company will give me 30% more and I'm still going to be doing my to-do list at home on my own. So what why don't I move now?" Yeah. Is there truth to that in your view? course because you mistook um trappings for culture. Right. Right. Now no those things are good. Let's not diminish the value of those things. But this this is a beautiful full circle we're going in from the very beginning of our conversation, which is to what end? Hm. To what end? Like what are we doing this in service to? What's the bigger thing that was missing? And that was missing. 100%. And that's that's that's where cultures become magic. They're fun. Like, you know, the number of companies you and I have both visited that have, you know, flat screens everywhere, amazing design, free free lunch, you know? We had a slide. Yeah. Yeah, you have a slide. Like, cool. You know, now is somebody going to turn down a better paying job to keep that? No. You know? But if you give them an opportunity to contribute to something bigger than themselves, would they turn down a better paying job now? Yes. Right? And so, I think and it's probably driven by the whole dot-com tech culture, um but it's it's it's, you know, cuz tech companies largely are that sort of ridiculous bright colors, slides in every office, you know, which is fun. Don't get me wrong, it's fun. Um but that that's not that's not cause. That's not purpose. Uh and great cultures are are are organized to advance something bigger than themselves. They're not just fun places to work. Do you know the thing I think we did wrong is I think we asked people what they wanted. Yeah. So they said things like a bar. Yeah. A basketball hoop. Yeah. Whereas as you've as you're clearly alluding to here, you can't ask people for culture like in that regard. You can't ask people for to all name the the collective cause cuz they'll all say different things. Correct. You have to You have to offer them a cause to join. That's one of the reasons they join the companies because they believe in the cause. Not just because it's a a job I want to do. Um you know, Henry Ford famously said, "If I asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." You know, this is where folks like Steve Jobs, who's given too much credit for being able to predict what people want is just totally not true. It's he had a cause and he simply made products that brought that cause to life, which is to give people the power to stand up to Big Brother. That's it. And we develop technology to empower individuals. That's it. You know? And so those who came to work there, they recognized that they were a part of a revolution, the computer revolution. They constantly talked about it as the revolution. Then they invented iTunes, which more than the iPod revolutionized the music industry, turned it from an album culture to a song culture. Let us make music portable. You know? Um and that was the music they referred to as the music revolution. Um and and you carried a banner, you know, and you sacrificed for it. Was it a great place to work? It was a hard place to work. But it was worth it. And that's the question. Are the sacrifices worth it? And sometimes we we hide the pain or the difficulties or the strains or the stresses with all the silly fun stuff, which is a salve, let's be honest. I mean, it it does work to some degree. But not all stress is bad, you know, you know, I I I joke, you know, often, you know, when we work hard for something we love, it's called passion. We work hard for something we don't love, it's called stress. Now, in both cases you're working hard. You know, what's the different what's the difference between, you know, doing something you love and you work late hours and you sacrifice your relationships and your family, but you look at it and say, "Uh it was hard, but it was worth it." You know? Versus losing all those things and all you do is get a Lamborghini at the end. You know? It's like, "Was it worth it?" I'm like, "Eh, not so sure I'd do that again." You know? Um and so I think that's what that's what purpose and cause provide us is they give us a reason for the sacrifice. That's what love gives us. Gives us the reason for the sacrifice. That's what children do. They give us the reason for the sacrifice. Your life will profoundly change when you have a child. Is it worth it? Yes. Is Is it easy? No. Every person I've ever talked to who has children say it's the most difficult thing they've ever done. And if you ask them if it's worth it, they all say yes. That doesn't go together. You know? When I think about even this podcast and setting purposeful goals for what we're doing here, we definitely fell in the trap of being like I think a lot of people do, you get consumed in the charts. Oh my god, we're number one. Right? For now. For now. Yeah, and then you scratch your head and go, "Well, then what what next? What say what's a more worthy, more purposeful goal for us to have as a team when we're building something like this podcast?" Cuz it's so easy to get, you know, caught up in we want to be number one in the charts and and that does drive you to some extent. It seems to be a a reason, whether it's a an vapid one or whatever. But what is a better more worthy purposeful goal to set? Okay, so let's take a step back. Uh-oh. Going to interrogate me. No. What was the reason you did episode one? Um plentiful. Going to give you all of them. I'm very honest as well. I thought podcasting as a medium would be a big opportunity. I thought that was would be a really effective medium of communication, one that's growing. Opportunity for what? To grow my personal brand. Okay. I'm going to give you all of the reasons, even the selfish ones, okay? Number two, I find it a thrill and deeply compelling and liberating for others to talk about things and be honest in a way that most people aren't usually honest. So in the first episode I talk about things like masturbation and mental health problems as a CEO, difficulties with my family, all of those things. I find it liberating for myself, but I know for others that listen to it when I especially when we got the um started to get the feedback, it was equally liberating for them. And then when you have so episode one is a little bit episode one was more of an experiment, but as you get episode two, yeah, episode two or whatever, then it was the feedback. So I was doing a lot of other things that were doing bigger views. My Facebook videos would get 10 million each, 10 million views each, but the feedback I was getting from the thousand people that were listening to this was deep. It was profound and it was intense. And they said things like They said things like, "I can relate to that. Um that's really helped me solve this problem I've had. You've made me feel" A big one we get is, "You've made me feel like I'm not alone." Mhm. And then going if I go to the last like the you know, if I go to more recent times, I quit when I left my job and I was now no longer needed to do anything for money anymore in my life, when I took stock of cuz there was about a a six-month or a one-year gap in this podcast, which is when I was leaving my job. Mhm. And I took stock of my life and thought about the things I want to do for the rest of my life. And this was one of the things that seemed to touch all bases. It was enjoyable for myself. I get to sit and learn from people like yourself. It feels like it as you said, it's like a service to others, a really profound one, probably the best most the greatest service like I feel like I can do to the external world. And it's it's money generating, but to be honest, if it makes a profit, I just spend it on the podcast. So uh yeah, and that's where that's kind of my my thesis. So Okay, so let's back up a second. I'm just taking on your own words. I'm not adding anything here. Would you rather do this to be number one? To grow your own brand? Or would you rather grow this? Would you rather do this to tell the truth? So it helps others tell the truth to themselves and to others. Number two. Obviously. Yeah. And so your podcast absolutely has purpose. And so when you start recognizing that we do this We do this to tell the truth. So that others can be honest with themselves and others. In a way that they struggle to find anywhere else. And if we're number one for a period of time, amazing. But if we're number two, we'll still do it. If we're number four, we'll still do it. If we're number the 10, we'll still do it. Because there's a reason to do this that's bigger. Now, if the numbers are steadily declining and no one's listening, then maybe we're doing something wrong to spread our message. Maybe we've gone off base. Maybe we're maybe we're not telling the truth like we used to. We need to re-evaluate if we're still fulfilling our purpose or maybe the manner or medium that we're using is no longer relevant. So, you know, because things change in time, too. So, that's why the metrics do matter, but the absolute of the metrics don't matter. The trend of the metrics matter. Um and so you do have purpose for this. And that means you have to practice that kind of truth-telling with your team who work on this podcast because you have to live when the microphone is off the same way you live when the microphone is on. And that starts to have a profound impact on you and your team. So if that becomes the purpose rather than being number one, maybe gives people a reason to stick around here because they believe in it. It's benefited them. Is there a role for those arbitrary goals? Is that Are they useful to say we want to be number one in the United States? Is that a a useful goal to set ourselves? Um alongside the sense of purpose. Can they coexist? They can coexist as long as you're as long as you recognize the reason, right? Because if you become too obsessed with the goal at the sacrifice of the cause. Like there is a hierarchy. The cause comes first. Because the goal comes first, you can look, I know authors who and I'm sure you know I'm sure there's ways to do it in podcast as well, but like I know authors who are number one Amazon bestsellers. Well, it's because you can game the you can game the algorithm. You just have all your friends buy a book on the same hour because it's calculated hourly and congratulations, you can be a number one Amazon bestseller with the worst book in the world. It exists. You can do it. I I've seen it. Sure. There are companies that you can buy a New York Times bestseller. Like they know how to game the New York Times algorithm and they buy books across the country. Basically, you buy the books and they buy them on your behalf. So and if and I've had an opportunity to look at the publishers like look at the publishers' computers where you can see any book we can track any book book sales and they've showed me they showed me how the trend works that you can tell who game the system. And there are some very famous authors that I will not mention on this podcast who I know for a fact because I looked at the the that they brag about how they're New York Times bestsellers. Well, it's cuz they paid for it. They bought all those books themselves. Right? You can game all these systems. And if you're too obsessed with the number because you think the number is what gives you credibility, then it goes back to ethical fading again. Then the pressure becomes overwhelming and you start doing things that have nothing to do with the podcast or the cause and only have to do with advancing the number so you can go around telling people you got the number. Right? Great. Good for you, you know? And you know, I don't It's not how I choose to build my business or live my life, you know? But I think what's more fun is to be surprised. Which is Is it okay to be driven to be number one as long as you're doing it second and and the pod and the and the the cause comes first? Sure, if that's your thing. Um but just be prepared to answer what what next. You know, cuz you you can't be number one forever. I I love it when companies say I'm number one or I've got the number one podcast and you heard I always say, "For now." For now. Like that stuff doesn't last. Even if it's 10 years, it still won't last. Right? Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA. If you want to be one of those people, all you've got to do is hit subscribe. What are you working on at the moment, Simon? Cuz you're you're you're known for writing amazing books and delivering amazing content. What are you working on? What's what's compelling you at the moment? What's your why? Well, my why is to inspire people to do the things that inspire them. So to each of those so that each of us can change our world for the better. That is the the foundation of everything that I do. And and that's the test through which I run everything that I will do. Like does this inspire people to affect some sort of change or perspective? Um Why does that matter to you? It's not that it matters to me. It's it's who I am. It's like that's core to my being. Like your why is core to your being. My why is core to my being. That's my personality. It's what wakes me up every day. It's what fulfills me. It's what fills me as well. So and then I have my cause, my just cause, which is, you know, my why is where I come from. My cause is where I'm going. And my cause is to create a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired to go to to work, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. You know, that if you're going to put stress into something that you get to enjoy the fruits of your own labor. You know, building something and looking at it and say, I helped build that, you know? That's beautiful thing. And so any work that I do is always to advance that cause. So there's a bunch of things that I'm doing, some of which will work and some of which will fail. Um I started a my own imprint with Penguin Random House. Oh, really? Called Optimism Press. Amazing. Where I'm looking for the people who are uh ideas that I believe need to be shared that help move uh the needle and advance towards that cause. Um and so we've published four books so far. We have two coming on the way. Which is really exciting. Uh How to Make a Plant Love You, uh Trust First, um um The Power of Giving Away Power, and our newest one is called Partnering. Um and they all have a point of view about how to move or new ideas about how to advance this close towards this world that I imagine. So um and all different takes on it, which is really fun. Um so we have the imprint. Um I'm working behind the scenes on police reform, uh which has been intense and fascinating and steep education. Also looking um I'm I'm doing some work to try and sort of figure out how to drive innovation inside large bureaucracies. Um so I'm trying to figure out. I'm working behind the scenes trying to work with some really forward-minded uh forward-minded really um infinite-minded young CEOs or at least younger companies to help them figure out how to build infinite-minded companies now. It doesn't matter if they sell. It doesn't matter if they have a liquidity event, but they're not driven by the sale. They're not driven by the liquidity event. They're driven to build a company that can outlast them. And they're driven to build cultures that can withstand the test of time and the loss of every single employee. You know, that you could have an entire new generation come in and the company will survive. Um and so I really want to I'm I'm I'm looking for those companies that I think are worth supporting and helping them build a new kind of company for the next generation because I think the way we've been doing it for the past 30, 40 years has been really not helpful to the economy and to the world. And I think that we have to find new ways to do it. In other words, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm All the books that I've written about these things, I'm going to try and get under the hood and try and help these companies do it. Your brilliance, you know, I saw it in the list of all the things you're doing. You're brilliant, and but I also see it in all the work you've created. I see it in the content you put out there. Your brilliance is very obvious. I sat here with the the guy that trained um Michael Jordan for 15 years and then he trained Kobe afterwards. And he said that with our brilliance often comes what he refers to as like our dark side, Mhm. which is the things we struggle with. And those And he says they they there tends to be a relationship between our brilliance and our struggle or our dark side. Mhm. Are you aware of what your dark side is in terms of the cost of your brilliance? Well, I think um uh First of all, I don't think I'm brilliant. I know that sounds sort of like falsely humble, but I really don't think of myself that way. I genuinely think of myself as an idiot. And and I'm not being glib at all. I I don't really understand very complex things. Um and I have pretty bad ADHD. And so everybody thinks I'm I'm extremely well read. And the reality is I've written more books than I've read. And and I just I love the idea of reading. I I don't I can't read. I don't read. I learn by listening and talking. And so uh um And so very complex things, my brain doesn't work that way. And so I I've learned to ask lots and lots and lots of questions so that something can be simplified to the level that I can understand it. And if it's simple and I can understand it, that means I can repeat it. And so my books are my ability to understand complex things by asking other people lots and lots and lots of questions so I can simplify it enough so that other people can understand these complex things, too. Talking about biology and anthropology of, you know, all kinds of, you know, things that Yes, I know that I've oversimplified them. I'm fully aware, you know? Like people who criticize, you know, criticize me like, "This is pop culture, you know, pop science." I know that. But if I make it at its full complexity, all I've done done is written a textbook. Well, that's not helpful, is it? So I don't think of myself in the way that you receive my work. You know, and I think that maybe the impact of my work may be perceived as genius. But let us not confuse that the impact of the work that may be perceived as genius doesn't make the person who produced it the genius. Right? So I I reject I'm flattered by but reject the the the compliment. Even though it's a gift, I'm supposed to accept the gift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um uh Take your gift back. It has no use here. Um So when you ask me like, "What's the balance of genius?" Genius being this thing off the scale all the way far away over there. Well, if I don't think of myself or even live my life that way, then the balance of something is probably a little closer to the middle. So do I have darkness? Of course I have darkness. You know, uh do I find that darkness absolutely fascinating? I do. What is it? Uh the I mean, a lot of my insecurities uh that I'm that I've dealt with. Some of Like I've it I don't think I've ever actually said out loud on a podcast like this. I might have mentioned it a couple times scarily. Like people will always ask me, um "So, Simon, what books are you reading? Or what books are on your bedside table?" Well, I can answer that question cuz I have a pile of about five or six books on my bedside table, and I've read none of them. But they've been sitting there for like 2 years. I've read some of two of them. I honestly don't remember the last book I finished other than my own cuz I had to read it for the book on tape, you know, for the audio book. Um And so I would always answer that question. I would name one of the books or I just name one of my perennial favorites like, "Oh, Man's Search for Meaning." You know? And only now I'm sort of getting comfortable with the idea of saying out loud I don't read books. And not because I don't like them. It's because I struggle to. Um the good news is I learned how to learn without them. I wish I could read cuz there's so much good stuff in them and I know that they go into level of depth that I really want to understand. But there you go. And I think that goes to the honesty thing. You know, I'm realizing that me trying to answer the question and avoid embarrassment um is valuable for people who like to read books. But for the people who struggle to read books, I just made them feel worse. You know? And somebody pointed that out to me. It's like every time I lied about I never lied. I said, "What books are you reading?" I said, "Well, this is on my bedside table." Um or I believe this book is important, you know? Or I just picked up this new book, which would all be true. I just didn't read them. Um that there's a group of people who also struggle to read for whatever dyslexia or ADD or whatever it is. And and I'm I'm living proof that you can do okay without it. Now, that doesn't mean you can't learn, but you got to find the hack. There's a couple books I finished. Mhm. Um I finished I finished The Da Vinci Code. It's so good. And it's You know why? Cuz it's written with really, really, really short chapters. So you read like three pages. That's I'm the person who like always looks pages ahead to see how much I have to go. And if it's like 50 pages, I'm like, "Uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. How does that change how you write, though? If you if you're not a reader yourself when you write Ironic, isn't it? Yeah. That I Yeah, it's ironic that I ended up writing books. Writing is a is a it's different. Um because if it's really fun when I'm editing cuz if I'm boring myself, I just cut that whole section. And so the books have my sense of humor in them. Like there's little jokes in there cuz it makes me giggle. Mhm. And I write about the things that I think are really interesting. I tell the stories that make me interested and and I can make myself cry with some of those stories in the book. And I can give myself goosebumps with some of the stories in that book. And if I'm doing it for myself, it's probably working for others, too. You know, um but uh I I do love ideas. And I love dissecting ideas and understanding ideas. I really love understanding why things work. I am a little kid at heart. You know, I want to know why. Um not as a noun as I popularized it with Start With Why, but as a question. Like why is it that way? I'm really I love that question. It is It is a little kid question. You know, and for some reason as adults we stopped asking and started just blindly accepting. And that doesn't mean I have to be rebellious in the question. It's not It's not an accusation like, "Why are you doing it that way?" It's genuine curiosity. Like why does it work that way? Mhm. Um and I love that. And when I discover things that are illuminating to me and I'm able to explain them to my friends, my friends can understand these things. And the joy I see in people's faces and when they when I challenge their perspective, then the the fun is to share it. Well, I'm going to give you your the gift back of brilliance. Thank you. The reason why I think I do use the word brilliance is because you meet people sometimes that have one of the three things. used the word genius. Oh, did I use genius? Um if you meet people sometimes you have like one of the what I consider to be the holy trinity of like affecting change as as a as an orator. Sometimes they have wisdom, sometimes they're like good storytellers, and then sometimes they they have the delivery. But you rarely meet people that have all three. Your delivery in terms of when you deliver ideas, the way you can like punctuate sentences, and the tone of it keeps people in incredibly engaged. And I think you gave me the root cause of that when you said you had ADHD and you're you're a bad reader because you find it hard to hold a um you find it hard for other things to hold your attention, so you're very good at holding the attention of someone else listening. And then the circuitous way in which you deliver a point as well makes it incredibly engaging from a storytelling perspective. And then the wisdom or the simple idea that underpins it that we can understand. Cuz I've sat here before and honestly we've deleted podcasts because someone comes in, they're a genius mathematician. Yeah. But when you ask them to make that complex math idea relevant and resonant in my own life, it's impossible. We we we deleted the episode because they're too smart to to like to to simplify. For sure. Um but you you're able to do that. That's why your books are so important and that's why all the content you put out online and on your YouTube channels and Instagram is so necessary. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. Oh, cool. So they wrote it in the story. They don't know who they're writing it for. Oh, I love that. And you when you write your question, you also won't know who you're writing it for. But it's our way of all the guests talking to each other. Oh, that's great. In a long linear sequence. to know who's asking? You don't. I don't. Okay. What was the happiest moment of your life so far? Uh the happiest I can I literally can't answer the question. It's For me, it's my happiness doesn't exist in the past. It's I've done many things that made me happy, but I'm much more interested in what's going to happen next. I'm probably better at answering the question, "What's the happiest thing you're going to do?" Um I I'm I'm actually drawing a blank. What is the happiest thing you're going to do? Um walked into that one, didn't I? Um the happiest thing I'm going to do is actually solve some of the problems and or at least contribute to the solution of some of those problems that we talked about. Like I will be very happy when I help when I can contribute to police reform in this country. I will be very happy when I can figure out better systems to help reinvent what modern business looks like and reject everything that Jack Welch built. You know? And disrupt shareholder supremacy in the way that we build com- companies now. I will be very happy to demonstrate a momentum towards an entirely different direction. Um I will be very happy um if all of the sum of my work makes it feel like I have moved the needle somewhat closer, though not final, towards that vision I talked about of an inspired, safe, and fulfilled world. Ironically, those sound like infinite games, many of them. Yeah, I don't believe I I mean, all of the things that will make me happy will be incomplete. I I I don't expect them to be complete. What will bring me joy is like when when when you if let me rephrase the question for myself, which is how will you know you lived a life worth living? It's kind of the same question, right? And the answer will be is because other people will pick up where I left off and continue without me. That I was clear enough, my cause was compelling enough, and the tools that I left were sharp enough that others figured out how to not only use them, but make them better and reinvent new ones. I I will have lived a life worth living if I can look back and say it will keep going without me. Cuz it doesn't need me. And that's the goal. Simon, thank you. It's a a huge honor and a pleasure and it it's very clear why you were probably the most requested guest on this this podcast um from our from our viewers and you've definitely given much more than um I could have ever hoped for in terms of your generosity and wisdom to me, but also to our listeners in this conversation. So, thank you so much for your generosity, Simon. Thank you. It's it's been a joy. Um and you it's one of the best podcasts I've ever done. I mean, you are so engaging and and driven you your cause comes out clear, which is you are so driven by the truth. You were so compelled by the truth that anybody sitting here really wants to offer only truth. Um uh and uh it's a cause worth fighting for. Thank you. I will accept the gift. We are all looking for ways to live a little bit more sustainably and to make more conscious choices in our day-to-day routine. So, when a brand like Myenergi, who I've spoken about before, offered to sponsor this podcast, I felt like and I knew deep down inside that I had to help them share their mission to create an even greener world. It feels like there's not much more fulfilling than that. And their products provide an easy and cost-effective way to make a sustainable switch in your life. And they've got some existing new products coming out that I can't wait to use myself. And I'll let you know as I use those products how I get on. So, if you're a Myenergi customer at the moment, let me know your favorite products down below in the comments section. And if you haven't checked them out yet, go to myenergi.com and find out a lot more about who they are and what they're doing. If you're one of those people that wants to make a sustainable switch, myenergi.com is the place for you.