Simon Cowell Opens Up About His Heartbreaking Loss & His Regrets About One Direction!

It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. Thinking, what have I got to live for? And um Oh gosh. Have to give me a minute. Please welcome Simon Cow. The scale of his success is staggering. Who's changed the landscape of television and music. Absolutely dreadful. As a kid, you were quite naive, weren't you? Seriously naive. trying to take on the world with a music publishing company which fails in the car park. And then you go from there to I'm going to start my own record label at 24. I met Senita in this club and I thought I'm going to make a record with her. I don't know how a records made. I can't read music but let's just do it. The first time it flopped, second time it flopped. Even when I had the hit, I owed the bank £500,000 and I'm broke. But I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe. Do you remember this single? Their album hits number one. Yeah, but this was a real bittersweet time because I get a phone call which starts with, "Are you sitting down?" And I was on a downward spiral from that period. Became a ridiculous workaholic working until 7:00 in the morning suffering from depression. And the truth is I still suffer from depression at times. What about One Direction? The one thing I regret about One Direction is, so boys, if you're listening, we've just hit 6 million subscribers on the Dire of Sio. Um, so me and my team would like to do something we've never done before as a little thank you. And we're calling it the Dire of Sio subscriber raffle. And here is how it works. Every episode this month, we're going to pick three current subscribers at random. And we'll send one of you a £1,000 voucher. one of you tickets to come and watch the DEIO behind the scenes live with our team. And one of you will have a 10-minute phone call with me to discuss whatever you want to talk about. If you're a subscriber, you're in the raffle. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to do something that me and my team love doing so much. It is the greatest honor of my lifetime, and I hope it I hope it continues uh off into the future. Let's get to the episode. [Music] Simon, in order to understand the man that sits with me today, what is the early context that I must know about that will help me to understand the Simon cow that all of us know so well. What is that early context that the oven that you were you were cooked in? Well, I had a happy childhood. I was always bored though. Uh, really bored at school. I always wanted to have a life where I would be interested and have have fun. When I was told the school days are the best days of your life, I'm thinking, "Oh my god, this is terrible because I hate school." So, uh, I was really determined to do something where I would be actually just having fun. That's what I kept thinking to myself and I want to start making my own money. Um and and one thing my parents did do when we were very very young because in those days you could actually even at the age of about seven or eight, you know, in our neighborhood is go around to people's houses, knock on their door and say, "Can I can I wash your car? Can I mow the lawn?" Uh cuz my mom and dad said, "Um, if we pay for the holiday, you've got to earn your spending money." So I'm like, "Fine." So, but I used to love it. Um, if you if you got 10 quid for like washing a car, I mean, it was like bingo. It was the best feeling. So, you mentioned your mother there. Can you tell me about the influence that your mother and your father, Julie and Eric Mhm. had on you? When I lost them, um, particularly when I lost my mom because then it was kind of final. It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. I mean, it was a very it was as bad as things could possibly be. Um, and we just had the most amazing relationship. Um, uh, my mom was the disciplinarian. I remember I must have been about four years old, maybe even younger. And, and I remember where I was. I was sitting in the car and she said something to me and she said, "Maners maketh the man." And I'm like, "What does that mean?" She goes, "Maners, make of the man." And then she explained what that meant. And it's always stuck in my head because it's such an oldfashioned way of saying be polite. Both my parents were very kind of uh old school. Um they were very respectful to everyone. I always remember that. And I looked up to both of them. And I always knew at any time I could go to them uh when I needed advice. Um and they would always give me the right steer and they were always there for me. Your work ethic is renowned. Yeah. I've spoken to a lot of people in your team currently. Um and one of the things they always described is through much of what got you to where you are today is an insane work ethic. And when I say insane, I mean insane with every sense of the word. M where does that come from? Because you know you said your childhood was happy and typically when someone has a pretty insane work ethic you there's some kind of trauma at somewhere you know but for you I couldn't quite identify what that was. It it probably comes from um my dad uh worked for a large corporation. Um and before he retired, he said to me, "Don't work for a large company because when you're, you know, 65 or whatever, they're going to retire you and you'll never hear from them again." And that is exactly what happened to my dad. And it was heartbreaking because he did work hard. He was a very loyal person, you know, to the company he worked for. When he passed away, you know, he didn't have any money. That's probably what made me realize a I don't want to be in that position. And secondly, the only way I can achieve that is by working for myself. And I always had this crazy vision of if I work for a company and I don't get on well with the boss, he's gonna probably invite me to his house and talk about golf. I just always had this in my head thinking I couldn't think of anything worse than having to suck up to a boss who doesn't like me. And the reason I kept thinking my boss would never like me is because I was so bad at school and my teachers were quite strict with me. So I thought work was probably going to be the same. Um so uh that's what drove me and you know my dad also you know he knew you know cuz I I I didn't do very well with my exam results and he did say to me it's quite clear some you're not going to make university. Um have you made up your mind what you want to do? And I said this, I want to do something I think in entertainment. I'm not sure what. And he said, "Look, whatever you do, you're going to have to be patient because it's not going to happen overnight. You if you want to do well, you got to learn to be good at it. And it could take 20 years, it could take 30 years, but understand that." And I'm like, I'm fine with that. And I really was fine with that. Your dad seems like a man that gave a lot of actual advice. a lot of advice that frankly I read your book as well that you can still remember to this day because my parents taught me things but vicariously by watching them. I can't think of a single sentence that my my parents said to me that was advice. But you've got so much advice that you recite from your father which I think is pretty remarkable. Well, yeah, he I mean one of the um the things that always stuck in my mind and it was quite an odd thing to say to a 12-year-old. He said, "Everyone in life, Simon, has a sign on their head and it says, "Make me feel important and I want you to think about that." I'm thinking, "Sign on their head or I have no idea what that means. Why'd he say that? Maybe he's had a couple of drinks." Um, and then I forget when I realized what it meant, but boy did that stick in my mind, which was if you want to do one in life, it's going to be a team effort. and make sure you recognize every single person on that team. And so if I walk into a room, um I instantly um I think pretty much from the point I understood it is that I can walk into a room and I can see I see everything in one in in one moment. I see the person who's opening the door. I see the person who's doing a particular job. So in other words, I see the room always as a team. And you did that the minute you walked into this room because there was what 10 people here from the person that opened the door, the person that got the coffee, the people, you know, taking care of the cameras and you and this is rare and obviously I've done 300 of these conversations. You went around to every single person in this room and took an interest in every single person, which is it's not typical, especially when you're dealing with people that are have a have of a big sort of public profile. We've had people walk in completely ignore me for 10 minutes, sit down and text and take phone calls. Nice. Uh I unfortunately I've seen a lot of that as well. Yeah. Uh and I see an awful lot of hypocrisy which are people Yes. who who on the outside, you know, they they show one side of it. I then always see that person when they're off camera and who they really are and um and they are the opposite. they will just like you said completely ignore everybody. Um the worst thing is and I had this as I as I was you know trying to get my career started. There's nothing worse than when you're talking to somebody and as as they're talking to you that they're they're looking for someone more important than you. I I remember feeling that you know uh at an early age in my career and how that felt and it was very demeaning. And I suppose, you know, those two uh stories about my mom and dad, they were really really really important things and they must have known that I that that would uh mean something for me later on in life. And I've said the same thing uh to my son Eric. You know, I remember the first time I said to him, Eric, manners maketh the man. He was about two and he's like, give me and he repeated it back completely wrong. I said, no, say it again. And then eventually I think he must have been about four and he was very polite to someone and I and I said I'm very proud of you Eric and he went manners maketh the man daddy and I'm like you've got it. Maybe you need a little bit of patience trying to indoctrinate the 2-year-old. But you turn you turn to your father and you express that you'll pursue entertainment and music. at sort, a 12. How old were you when you first said that to your father? I probably I was Yeah, I would have been about 12ish. Um, there was nothing I excelled in at school at all. You were surrounded by music people and entertainment people where you lived. I think your dad at one point worked at EMI. Yeah, he he he worked for their real estate division. Is is that where music cuz I'm trying to figure out where music came from. I've I've got this kid that's naughty, not paying attention in school. I read the stories about you holding up a bus with a spud gun. Shouldn't have said that. You were dreaming, but they called the police because you were holding up a a bus with a spud gun. And I'm thinking, where does music come into it? Cuz it doesn't appear like you're playing a huge amount of musical. Well, I I loved buying records. Um, so just, you know, going into a record shop um and saving up enough money for your, you know, to buy a single or an album was just everything. So most of my spending money would go on on records. I I can vividly remember going into my bedroom with a brand new album and just loving listening to every single track on it. It was such an exciting feeling. So when you leave school and you go off and try and find your own career, you worked a few jobs. You were a trainee at Tesco, I think, at one point. Well, uh, my dad, uh, he said, uh, okay, uh, you failed all your exams, uh, twice. Uh, so you're going to have to get a job assignment. Um, uh, and since you're not qualified, uh, what about Tesco's? I don't know where that came from. I'm like, doing what? and he said, "Well, you know, you could uh end up maybe managing a store or something." And I'm like, "Okay." So, I turned up at this interview. And I remember I wore jeans. And before I even sat down, the guy said, "Uh, how dare you? Um, how dare you come in here wearing jeans?" And I like, "I'm sorry." He said, "Well, how dare you?" And I was so annoyed. I said, "You know what? I'm really glad I came here because I never want to work for you or your company. And by the way, your office looks like and walked out. So that didn't go down well. My mom uh made an application for me to work for the civil service. Um so I was interviewed to be I think like a law clerk or something. Um, and that and it actually had a chart which told you exactly how much money you would make at the age of 64. And I'm like, that's not going to happen. Then my dad thought I should be in the building trade and I was going to have to work at this sort of building site, whatever it was, for 2 years to learn everything. And I thought, no. Um, and then eventually I got a job uh as a runner at um El Street Studios. And the second I got that job, it was like brilliant. Uh, I was so happy and and it and it was hard work. Why Why was that job the you described it, I think, as a sliding doors moment in in your life. Why was that job Why was that your to your heart? I'd kind of worked out that how to become a director, you know, you have to become a third assistant, second assistant, first assistant, two years in editing suites, blah blah blah. Uh, and I was I was up for that. I thought this is something I I think I would love. Unfortunately, the contract I had, it only lasted for 2 months. And the executive producer uh was so mean uh that he said after two months, well, that's it. We don't need you anymore. But the PAs liked me so much they paid for my salary. Really? So every But he was so awful, this guy. every time he would come into the building, I used to have to hide under their desks and he caught me one day and he said, "What are you still doing here?" And I said, "Well, nothing." He said, "Well, who's paying you?" And I said, "Nobody." And he said, "Well, you're not allowed to be here." And he threw me out. And then I nearly got a job on actually I was offered a job as a runner on The Shining. They were just making that I I saw the hotel being built on the lot when I was a runner. Um my mom at the same time had made an application for me to work in the post room at EMI Music Publishing. You're how old at this point? I was 17. 17 point. Yeah. So, I had this choice of I could become a runner uh uh at a big film studio on what looked like a great movie. Mhm. Or I could go in the post room at EMY Music Publishing. And something made me go and I'll tell you what it was. I passed the studio where I was going to work as a runner one particular day and there was a queue of people just outside the building and I went up to someone and I said, you know, what's everyone queuing for? And they went work. I said, what do you mean? They said, well, um, no one here is on contract and, uh, when a new production, you know, uh, happens, uh, it's pretty much first come, first served. And I'm thinking, God, this doesn't sound very reliable. Um, I don't like the idea of that. So, I think I'll take my chances and I'll work in the music publishing post room. In the You say the post room? Yeah. Do you mean where the post is sent? Yeah. Yeah. Literally. So, it was it wasn't a very nice building. Um, uh, and our It was almost like being in a garage where we were. It was definitely a basement. Um uh the there were two guys who used to work I think one of them was called Harry or something. They were probably in their mid to late 60s and I'd turn up all cocky you know uh right I've got a job at the post room and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and they were like just make us a cup of tea son and blah blah blah. But it was it was good be uh because uh I did get a chance to understand what everybody did in in in the company and I I think I was making £18 a week at that point and as the months wore on because I thought someone's going to realize I'm really talented and offer me a great job and I literally would walk into everyone's offices pretty much every day and say can can I have a job a better job and there's nothing going. I I literally even the managing director I I just walked in one day and I said, "I'm Simon. Can I have a job because I'm really passionate and he just threw me out of this office." Um were you asking questions about the industry to those people in those offices always? Yeah. Every time. Every time. There were a few people who were really really kind to me and they explained what they did. They un they explained to me how music publishing worked, what they do for the writers, the cataloges, everything. So I started to get an understanding of how the music business worked. I also glimpsed some of the checks that were coming in being in the mail room. Uh and my jaw dropped. Um, seeing how much Kate Bush, for instance, earned, it was like, bloody hell. If you do one in this business, there's a lot of money. I had no idea. There's something about that in terms of like career advice because I really heard that you were, even though you're in the post room, you're peppering people with lots of questions. Yeah. Now there's a lot of you know there's a lot of people working a lot of jobs right now who might not have understood the importance of being curious even if you're at the very start of your career or the bottom of the proverbial ladder. Yeah. But that seemed to be really pivotal because there's a lot of people that would work in a post room and know nothing else but the but the post room. Yeah. But you you were annoying people. I was actually maybe in a kind of a charmingly annoying way. Um, I was always, you know, very polite. I was very on time. I would always say, "Here's your um, uh, mail, sir. Ma'am, is there anything else I can do for you? And while I'm here, blah blah blah blah blah." Uh, and so, uh, I was sort of like the company pet. However, it did start to go on me after a while about how little money I was making and my brother making a lot of money now being uh an estate agent. And I and and I wasn't offered a a job out of the mail room. I thought it was going to happen after about a year, after 18 months, nothing. And so I'm I said, "Right, nothing's happening here. I'm going to become an estate agent." And my dad because he did have connections with property he got me to work for a company called Hillia Parker May and now even by the name you can just tell the kind of people who I mean they were just awful awful people really snobby uh really mean really rude. And after a month, uh, my mom, uh, said to me, "You're really unhappy, aren't you?" And I said, "Yes, I'm really unhappy. I hate this." Um, and then my dad, uh, knew the guy who ran EMI music publishing that. Now, this is where I was in the post room. And I don't really think he connected me with my dad because my dad actually said to him, "I can't believe after 18 months you didn't, you know, give Simon at least a little promotion." He went, "I didn't realize that was your son." Or so he claims. I I'll never know. Um anyway, the next thing is an opening suddenly arrives and and my mom, I remember her face. She said, "I've got some really exciting news for you." And I said, "What?" She said, "I think uh there's a uh a better job for you at EMI music publishing and you got to have an interview." And it was working in the international department of EMI music publishing, which basically means that uh writers that were signed say in America, Germany, whatever, this department administered their copyrights, right? Um, and the job that became available was a song plugger, which meant um, all of the hundreds of thousands or if not millions of songs they published, my job was to get other people to cover those songs so they could generate more money. Oh, okay. Um, and to do that, uh, it was quite a difficult job because it was the country music division. Now, at that point, country was not very popular in the UK and a lot of these songs were unknown. And what made it really difficult was is that this job was actually promised to somebody else in the company. Um, and obviously it got out that I got the job because my dad helped me get the job. forgetting the fact I already worked there for 18 months. It just looked like I was given even though it paid I think 30 quid a week or something. It wasn't like a high paid job. And uh no one would talk to me for the first six months. So I'm like this terrible. So I locked myself into this room and I just thought no one's talking to me. I'm just going to listen to every one of these terrible country songs. Uh, and I listened to literally thousands and thousands of songs over six months, compiled a list, and then just went out to all the record labels, met up with all as many ANR people as I could and said, I think I've got a great song here and it will be perfect for one of your artists. And I did get a lot of the songs covered. And you were eight, what, 17, 18 years old? I was about probably about 18, 19 at that point. Um, and then uh my boss uh said, "I think you're really bright, Simon. Um, why don't we start a company together?" Uh, and I was like, "It's a bit early, isn't it? I'm like 19." And he said, "Uh, I've been here for 16 years. Uh, you're never going to uh make much money. Um, let's just do it." Uh, I've actually found he found someone to back us. So, I met these people. They owned a recording studio. I had a really really bad feeling. And I said, I I just I don't think I can do this. It's too early. I don't I don't even know what I'm doing at the moment, let alone run my own company. And he said, "Well, I think you better go and meet these people and tell them that the answer's no." And it was he did it. Tina, he knew what was going to happen because I went and they persuaded me and I and I I know I knew I'd made a mistake. So, we started this company. We had about £40,000 um seed money. Uh our offices were in an NCP car park. Uh I think it actually used to be a L our office. It was just so bad. Um, and I'm like, "Oh god, what have I done? I just got this job with EMI and now I'm working in a loo in a car park and this is not going to work." Um, and after about 18 months, I just left your own company. Was it ENS? ENS. Yeah. Ellis and Simon, right? Yeah. But then I met somebody who was a manager who managed hot gossip. Um, and he had a really cool office in the South Molton Street. And I and I just really liked him. He was really funny. And I said, um, can I work for you? And he went, "Doing what?" I said, "I want to start a record label." And he went, "Seriously?" And I said, "Well, you got this great management company. Um, I think I I know how to make records. Um, let's just do it." and he went, "Uh, I'll pay you £40 a week." And we agreed on 55. And I'm like, "Brilliant." And I don't know, I just suddenly from feeling really this isn't working to I've really got a feeling this is going to work. You were quite naive, weren't you? Oh, yeah. I mean, seriously naive. Yeah. because it's like a kid is like trying to take on the world with like his own music publishing company which fails in the car park l and then he goes from there to I'm going to start my own record label at what 20 26 25 years old so you start this record label was is that fanf fair records yeah um so um I met Senita in this club the embassy club which is a brilliant nightclub um I liked her she liked me and Uh, I said, "Oh, I run my own record label." Nice. And I thought it's a great pickup line. And she said, "Oh, I'm an artist." I went, "Really?" I said, "Um, have you made any demos?" And she said, "Yeah." So I said, "Well, can I can we meet again?" And uh and we did meet again. And she did play me some demos. And I said, "Actually, you've got a really really good recording voice." Um, and at the time, uh, there was this particular kind of, uh, sound, uh, dance music which was really becoming popular in it was all originating from, I think, um, uh, the French part of Canada, uh, where a lot of these records were originally made. They were all breaking out of gay clubs across the UK. Um, and I just had this idea for Senita, which was she was so beautiful, so much fun, and I thought, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to make a record with her, and I'm going to break it through uh through the clubs across the UK. Um, and I I just had this crazy idea in my head for a title. And I said to this uh guy I met, he hadn't had a hit before. Um, uh, this is Senita blah blah blah blah blah. Uh, I want a record. This is how I think I'm going to break it. I want it to be called So Matcha. And he looked at me like, right. So we made two records. One was called So Macho, the other one was called God, You've Got It. Is the other side Cruising? This is the record. That's it. My god, that's a great sleeve, by the way. It's It's fantastic. Yeah, that's right. So much and cruising. The problem was is the guy I was working with um says to me, um, I'm expanding into book publishing. I'm like, okay, fine. Um, so he didn't really take any notice of what I was doing. And then he said to me, um, I've been, uh, a public company, uh, you know, basically wants to buy my business, blah blah blah blah blah. Great. I'm shutting down the record label. I'm like, are you kidding? I've just I've just made this record. I think it's going to be a hit. And he went, no, I'm shutting it down. And I said, what does that mean for me? He said, "Well, you have a job." And I said, "Look, you I know you've made a lot of money. You're probably going to make a ton more. Do me a favor. Will you just give me £5,000? I don't want a salary, but with that money, I will make the video. I'll get it distributed, blah blah blah, recorded video, everything." And he went, "Let me think about it." And I kept calling him over the weekend and eventually said, "Okay, fine. 5,000 and that's it." So I thought okay that I think should be enough. Um and that was you know I suppose one of the biggest turning points in my life. If he had said no at that point I'm not sure what I would have done. What would you have done? Um I would have hustled it from somewhere. Um because I really did believe in this. The minute I heard the record from I just thought this is going to be a hit. How'd you know? I just felt it, you know. I I had a good I the the funny thing is when I first when I actually made my first record, the uh the producer said, "Do you want to come down to the studio?" And I said, "No." And he said, "Why?" I said, "Because I don't want to know how a record is made." He said, "Why?" He said, "I because I want to listen to it as anybody who buys records. If I know how a record's made, it's going to sound different to me. So, to this day, I don't know how a record is actually made. I don't know how it started. Does someone play a baseline or keyboard? I mean, I literally haven't got a clue. So strange. Uh because I know it would be an It's like when people do magic on on my shows. I'm not the person who goes, I know how you did that. I go I believe in magic and I will literally make myself believe in magic. Um and with music it was sort of the same thing which is I don't want to know too much. I just I don't want to pretend that I can read music cuz I can't. I don't want to make uh make myself believe that I can be a producer because I probably couldn't be a very good producer. But I think I could be a very good ANR person which is find an artist find them the right song and then, you know, break the record. And it took me about a year and a half to break that record. Um, it was tough. I just want to pause on that what you said there about not knowing anything about music or how a record is made. What I what I heard there I guess in between the lines is you want to remain the listener and not the creator because you think it's more valuable to maintain the perspective of the consumer. Completely 100% that. I mean you've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly that. And also I didn't want to ever, you know, because I'd met some successful producers, you know, over the years, you know, and I I I had this vision of because I'd heard stories of ANR people who went into studios pretending they understood how to make a record and hadn't got a clue. In fact, one guy actually had literally a piece of metal uh like a train track or something. Literally a piece of iron and he had it on his studio wall and he called it the wacometer because all these idiot ANR guys used to come in, yeah, don't really like the mix of the record. And he'd go, "Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Let me just adjust this." And so he would just pull the lever down and the guys would go night and day. And I couldn't think of anything more embarrassing. So I've always been the first to say, I don't know how a record's made. I can't read music. Um I haven't really got a clue. But I think with I do have a good ear for a hit or a potential hit. There's something really transferable to marketing. I've obviously spent the last 10 years working in marketing and one of the the most passionate things I've said on stage a gazillion times to my teams is trying to get us out of the perspective of the creator and into the perspective of the person that's going to see it out in the world. And I have to say it is like an impossible task. It sounds so simple and what you're describing is is what I've fought so hard to try and con convey to people. Well, I think you can do that if if you believe it yourself. And and I did have this strong belief in myself that finally I'd found something I could do, which was um make a record, you know, make a terrible video. Um, and uh, I mean I cuz obviously we used to have to physically manufacture the records. So I didn't have a lot of credit. So I had to do a lot of deals, you know, with these people. Look, I'll pay you if you'll make me 10. I think 10,000 was the minimum or something. I mean the whole thing what I had to go through to get this record into the charts and it was all about getting it into the top 40. And it took me three times. First time it flopped, second time it flopped. And then what I did uh was I I said to the u uh warehouse I said what is the problem? They said, "Well, the record's selling, but it's not keep selling, Simon, but um it's not enough to get to get it into the 40." So, I said, "Well, why don't we hold the order?" And they said, "Well, we're not really supposed to do that." Does that mean uh in other words, just say it's out of stock um on the computer, but it's not out of stock. just don't let them have the record when they order it. In other words, let's build up the back orders. So, we built up whatever the back order was and then all the people who had ordered a record 3 months ago, four months ago, suddenly all these records arrived that week and it worked. It got the record into the top 40. squeezed in and I got a breaker on top of the pops and the record just exploded after that. Because of circumstances heavily outside of your control, FanFair Records collapses um owing the bank $500,000 and you're left with about £5 in your pocket and you move back in with your parents at 30 years old, my age. Well, it wasn't the label that owed the money. It was me. um uh because all of us were encouraged to buy shares in this company uh because we were told the company was doing really really well. So the bank manager was practically forcing me to borrow money, you know, because he said the shares are going to go up in value. Um and at the same time, um I thought everything was just going to be wonderful. So, I bought a house. Um, I bought a Porsche, of course. Uh, uh, I had a gold credit card, which no one explained to me how that works in terms of the interest rates. Um, so I'm living it up. Um, and when it all came crashing down, uh, yeah, I owed the bank nearly £500,000. Um, so I had to go in and see the bank and they had the nice guy and they had the not so nice guy and the not so nice guy was, "Okay, where's the money?" Right. Well, you lent it to me, you know, where it's just gone. And the other guy was like, "Yeah, well, you know, it was partly our fault and blah blah blah blah blah." So, I said, "Look, all I can tell you is, uh, if you bankrupt me, I don't care. Uh, because I don't have anything. Um, uh, I don't have a job. Uh, I don't have any income. I've just got this debt." Um, what about the Porsche? What about the Porsche? It all went the whole lot. Even when I sold the house, I still owed money on the mortgage. So, I I I was I was on paper bankrupt. Yes. So I moved back in with my mom and dad and that was really told me what great people they were because there wasn't one moment where either of them said you know you failed or this or that. It was like it's a life lesson Simon and you'll get over it. Um and I managed to find a bank amazingly to lend me cuz I basically I negotiated the debt down. We worked out what the interest was over the period of time, what the capital sum was and then I got them to half that and I said somehow I'll pay it back to you. So I found another bank who just backed me. I just sold myself and I said look you know I my first record I ever made went to number two whatever it was in the charts sold a million copies. This is what my career is going to be. Uh what happened was was out of my control. and he said, "I don't know. I've got a feeling about you. Um, I'm prepared to lend you some money to pay back the other bank, which meant I didn't become bankrupt." So, I went uh back to live with my mom and dad. And it was actually quite an interesting time because I I remember and I've told this story a lot is that I had to get from a particular destination in the West End to where my parents lived and I had about £5 cash and I remember thinking it's literally all the money I've got left in in the world and I'm not sure the five quid's going to cover the taxi ride home. And I think we I know we just about made it. Yeah. And I said, "I'm sorry about the tip because I haven't got any more money." Um it was about 10p or something. Uh fortunately had a very very good lawyer guy called Tony Russell. Um and I said to Tony, um look, I'm in a not in a great place. I'd met him actually because he represented George Michael and he sued me. Uh uh when I'd made a mega mix of which we used to do, we used to literally get in session singers and say Kylie Mano just record eight Kylie Manow records with someone who sounded like Kylie Mano. Mix them. So we used to call them mega mixes and they would they'd sell about 10 20,000 copies. is we used to export them all over the world. I did a wham one. We got sued by George Michael. That's how I met my lawyer cuz he was repres representing George and I said I'd rather you represent me next time. And he was brilliant because he said, "Look, I think Simon, weirdly, what's happened to you is the best thing that's ever happened." And I said, "Why?" I said, "I'm broke. I don't have a job." He said, he said, "But you succeeded so far, Simon, with everything you you've put out." Because I have had, you know, success with some other records along the way. Um, he said, "I think you should get a label deal, which means that you own uh part of the company with a major label." Um, so I'm like, "Okay. Uh, if you can get me if you can get me one, brilliant. And we went to meet two companies in on the same day uh BMG and Universal. And literally uh that day uh at the end of the day Tony calls me. He said I've had two calls. I mean go on Universal has said no. I'm like BMG has said yes. I'm like seriously there's a caveat. you got one year and within that one year you got to sell x amount of records and I'm like I'll do it and I did and that was kind of how I got myself back up and running again. By the way, the other thing I should mention is I said to Tony um by the way um I don't have any money to pay you. um the lawyer the lawyer. I said, "So, you know, I I'm not sure I can afford you." And he said, "Well, I I believe in you, Simon. I think one day you will end up repaying me." And I'll always remember that. Uh and uh years later, of course, you know, we did a lot of deals together and of course, I repaid him. But I mean the fact that he was there for me at that moment, I mean that was again a life-changing moment for me. There's these people throughout your story that seem to be so critical um mentors, people that were there to catch you when you fell and treated you in a pleasant way. One of those as well was Peter Waterman. You described meeting the day I met Peter Waterman was easily the most important day of my career. You said that in your book. I don't mean to be rude, but ah well, it was because um I I I I realized very very quickly um that it was unlikely I was going to be able to sign or find singer songwriters. So, I was going to have to find artists who needed songs written for them. Um so, I needed to find the best pop writers. um you know, literally in the world. I heard this record on the radio and I just thought, "Wow, whoever this is, this record is brilliantly made. Um and I found out it was produced by Stock Acre and Waterman. No one had heard of them at this point. So I call up and I said, "Hi, my name is Simon Cowell, blah blah blah." And can I meet you? And he went, "Yeah." So, I went down to his studios and we met. We were sitting on these literally wooden boxes. The studio was like a real mess. And I said, "I've got this um uh record uh I'm about to put out." And he put on So Macho, took it off. That's a hit. I went, "Yeah, I know. Will you produce her follow-up?" And he went, "No." I said, "What do you mean no?" I thought I thought I was doing him a favor. And he went, "Um, I'm too busy." And I said, "Doing what?" And literally the place was falling apart. And he gave me this awful wink. He went, "You'll see." And then the next 3 to 6 months, the whole Stockhen and Waterman explosion just happened cuz obviously Pete had been ma making other records in the meantime, which no one had heard. and out of nowhere it all of his records were just hits. So I thought, okay, I've got to persuade him to write Senita's follow-up. So I just uh used to turn up at his studio literally every single day and uh make tea, um sit in the studios, blah blah blah. And they were so busy they didn't really notice me. And after about a year and a half, Pete was in the studio and he turns around. He go, "Why are you always here?" And I said, "Well, I'm trying to work out how you do it." And he went, "I'm not paying you." I said, "I I don't want to get paid. I just I want you to one day write her follow-up." And a few months after that, I was in my office. I get a phone call. I've got you hit, mate. and I got in a cab, went down to his studio and he played me the demo of Toy Boy and I thought that's going to be a gigantic record for her internationally as well. I could feel it. Um, and Pete, you know, made everything cuz Pete again, I mean, Pete will pretend unlike me, he'll say, "Oh, of course I know how to produce records, blah blah blah." He may do, but Pete's skill is I've always described Pete as the best DJ in the world. He would he could go to any city in England at 1:00 in the morning and he would know instinctively what records to play to the audience that were in that venue. and he made everything simple which is you find a great artist and you you match them with a great pop record and that was it. When you got that job at BMG, one of the things that I read was that you were really focused on television which was unusual television as an outlet for the music and as a distribution platform to make the music successful which is unusual at that time to think about television. Why did you think about television and why were you pushing that upon your bosses at BMG? I took the view it didn't matter to me uh what the record was as long as it sold a lot of records. So uh I it just occurred to me one day I forget what it was. It might have been I think it was the wrestling federation or something. Um, someone told me they'd sold out uh Wembley Stadium, you know, the the American wrestlers in WWF. Yeah. In um 80,000 seats in like 27 minutes. And I'm like, what? And so I learned a bit more about them. You know, they're selling everything. And I'm thinking, actually, their fans are so crazy about them, they'll buy a they'll buy an album. So, I met with them and I said, "Have you ever considered doing this?" And they went, "No." And I said, "Well, I'll uh pay you X as an advance." I phoned up Pete Waterman. I said, "How do you fancy making an album full of wrestlers?" I'll do it. Instantly, he just got it. And um we we got all we flew all these wrestlers over from America. They all turned up as their characters. It was hysterical. The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, you name it, they were all there. And uh uh my boss at the time was so desperate for me not to do this. She actually got down on her knees, seriously. And was praying. She said, "Look, Simon, I am begging you not to do this because it's going to be such a catastrophic failure." And I'm like, "Well, I'm doing it. I just don't see don't understand why you don't get it. Um, have you felt like that a lot in your career where you feel like you can see something others can't? Because you're thinking more from first principles there. You're thinking they sold out an arena, they have an avid fan base. We can attach music to an avid fan base equals hit. Yeah, you've summed it up very eloquently and that is exactly it. However, and you know this, what is very straightforward to us is not straightforward to other people. They're thinking you he's gone completely mad. I mean, no. But I'm thinking, yeah, but you're not a sevenyear-old boy, you know. This is who's going to buy the record, you know. This is somebody who's going to buy a board game or bl or, you know, uh, cereal with the wrestlers on it, whatever. You know, I did it with the Power Rangers, Zig and Zang. I I didn't care as long as it sold records. Um, wait for this one. That's it. It's brilliant. Oh my god, we had so much fun doing this. We really, really, really did. Um uh and you know what was interesting is actually when I made the video I I kind of turned myself into a kid again because I you sort of have to believe it for it to work, you know, because I I treated it as if this was a serious record. The record had to be a great record. Doesn't this go back to what you said earlier on about being able to embody the listener consumer? Yeah. Yeah. Because your boss at the record label there was saying, "No, this is not how it's done. This is not what we do here." Whereas you're thinking again from the mind of a seven-year-old or an 8-year-old. And that's hard. Um Yeah. Well, I didn't think I I thought logically it made a lot of sense. I used to sit in these ANR department um meetings with really really serious ANR people who would literally go bright red with anger when I would play them something like this. You're making a mockery of this label and the music business is like, well, who cares? It's number one in the charts in 28 countries. Um I just didn't understand why people would take it so seriously. And this sold millions and millions of copies. You sold millions of copies for a wrestling album. Yeah, using a passionate fan base as the and and and you know what? It was fun. It actually was a fun project. Um and when I worked um at BMG, I got to know a lot of the people in who worked in the teley sales department. Um, and these were the girls who would literally get uh um orders from the record shops and I got to know all of them and they were really really fun people and uh but they were they were like the back background you know but they were I used to call them the punters you know they completely got it and I always used to say if you hear of anything just let me know you know if is there a demand for something. I always just I just want to know what's going on every day. And one particular day, uh I said, "Anything happening this morning?" And they went, "Yeah, uh we're getting a lot of calls about um um something that was sung on Soldier Soldier last night." So anyway, cut a long story short, um I tracked down Robson and Jerome and I said, "Hi, I'm Simon Cow, blah blah blah." Um, I kind of got Jerome to say yes. Robson just wasn't having it. So, I was like a stalker. I would not let it go. I got hold of his parents, uh, everyone, his friends, baby. I mean, to the point I think I got a legal letter saying, "Can you stop harassing my client?" And it's like, "Well, when he says yes, I'll stop harassing him." Um, and eventually he agreed to a meeting. Um, and I'm so excited. Uh, I'm in the cab going to the meeting and then I suddenly went, Christ, I don't know what he looks like cuz I've never watched the show. Um, what do I do? So, and we were meeting in this wine bar or something. So, I just walk in and I'm like, "Hi, I'm Simon." And then this hand shot up, Robson. I'm hi. And we sit down. And I said, "Here's the deal. I'll pay you both £50,000 each to go into the recording studio, lay down your vocals, and if you say no, you keep 50 grand each." And he looked at me and he went, "You serious?" I went, "Yeah." So, literally the following day, they said, "Right, we'll do it." Thinking we're about to make 50 grand each for a day's work, and we're never going to put the record out. So, uh, I get them in as quickly as possible and, uh, I get a phone call from Robson. I want to see you. Oh, dear. So, I walk in, they've laid down the vocals and I said, what's the problem? And he goes, you are a complete c-word. And I went, why? He said, cuz you knew exactly what was going to happen, didn't you? And I, I don't know what you're talking about. He said, yes, you do. He said, "Put it on." And they played me the record. And they both realized at that moment the record was going to be a hit record. And that I kind of forced them into doing it. And they were happy and angry at the same time. For two years, they were they were the biggest selling artists in the UK. I mean, they they outsold Oasis, everyone. Really? Yeah. It was absolutely I cannot tell you. We had so we couldn't make enough records. It we sold so many records and this was this particular track was number one for I think seven or eight weeks or something. Yeah, something like that. At the time went to number one. I mean I think all their records went to number one. It was actually quite incredible. Um and that was probably the thing that really cemented this thing about my my career which was absolutely trust your gut. um go completely in an unconventional way. And and that more than anything else made me realize the power of TV because it also when I eventually did see the episode and I saw how it was cut and the storyline and just how everything worked and why there was such a demand for that record. It was wow that's that's a great lesson. But Simon, what about if your gut is wrong? Because you've worked with people that trust their gut and they're continually wrong that they just don't have it. They just don't have it right. Yeah. Whether they're musicians or they're ans, you know, um there'll be a lot of people listening now that are like, "Okay, Simon said, trust my taste. Trust my gut. Just go for it." And then in reality, they, you know, it's it's a question of like self-awareness, I guess, which is which is difficult. Well, I I can relate to what is happening to a lot of people in the music business right now, which is the frustration they must feel, which is I'm talented. I've uploaded my music and I'm not getting anywhere. What do I do next? And I I know what this that feeling is. And what I decided to do was why don't I go with a slightly different direction from everybody else? I don't want to be part of the herd. If I follow everyone else, I'm just going to be a sheep. And I don't want to be a sheep. I'd rather be somebody slightly unusual but successful rather than safe, cool, whatever. So I always say particularly today, you've got to make noise amongst the noise. And that means, you know, do your research. You know, if if you're going to cover a song, don't copy the original. You know, find a song that could have been written 12 months ago, but actually was written 30 years ago. Uh, and rearrange the song. Do something different with it. You know, there's so many things you can do um which are different to what other people are doing and because that really is about getting your the your first step step on the ladder which is prove that you can make some noise amongst everybody else. Um and I do know what that feeling of frustration felt like. However, it's also about trusting your gut as well. When you make noise amongst the noise, there's a cost. And you talked a little bit about the cost of that. It's the skepticism. It's the negativity. It's the criticism. It's the get back in line. And a lot of people, especially if they weren't rebellious kids that had a problem with authority and such, can't can't deal with straying from the conventional path where other people have walked the blueprint how things have always been done. You have to go through the thorns, through the bushes. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes a certain type of rebel, which one of which is sat in front of me, that is willing to go through the thorns in life. Yeah. And don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that, you know, because you know, when people say it's not cool or whatever, well, who defines what is cool or what isn't cool? you know it this is just about you, your career, uh your passion. Um and if other people, you know, mock you for being different, then it I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe. That would just bore me. I've been called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business, but it just doesn't really matter. You know, the most Did it ever bother you? Um, is it a muscle you've had to train? Do you know the only thing that bothered me was like I said when I first tried to get my record played on radio one and I saw the process and I thought this is an this this is something I can't change. I cannot change a stuffy old producers's mind about liking a record he knows nothing about. So I have to find a way to force that person to play the record. And the way I can do that is to get it into the charts. So I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them to play the record on the top 40 countdown. That's always what I had in my head. Um, in other words, if you really really believe in it and the conventional path isn't open to you, then you've got to go right. Then how do we navigate a slightly different path um that eventually gets us what we want? Let's not go the the obvious route. And you know the I'm not going to lie, every time I do anything new, there's always part of the thrill is it may not work. Um, and you know, every time I I I film a series of BGT, AGT, whatever I'm filming, every year there is one day where I'm like, it's over. It's over. I hate the axe. I'm bored. Uh, uh, that's it. And then the following day, I'm like, my god, I love this show so much. I mean, I am so up and down like that because I I can't fake how I feel. You know, when when I'm bored, when I'm miserable, I it really shows. I I And when I'm happy, then, you know, I'm happy. You guys may have heard our most recent news, the launch of Flight Studio, which is our brand new podcast and media technology company. As we scale this new company, we also need to scale our team. And my first port of call for hiring across Flight Studio has been LinkedIn Jobs who are a sponsor of this podcast. We're hiring for around 30 to 60 roles right now. And LinkedIn has been me and my team's go-to. The platform makes the hiring process intuitive, smooth, and super efficient. LinkedIn has helped me and my team source professionals we can't get anywhere else. Even those who aren't actually searching for jobs right now, but might be open to the perfect role with us. In a given month, over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job websites, they visit LinkedIn. So, if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. So, today I'm giving the Diary of a CEO community a free LinkedIn job post. Head to linkedin.com/doac now and let me know how you get on. Terms and conditions apply. I've got another single here. It's a single, but it's part of an album that Do you remember this one? Oh, yeah. Westife. So you're sort of I think 39 years old. Um and your band West Life, their album hits number one. Yeah. And do you know what? This is uh uh my dad passed away uh right at this time as well. So this was a real bittersweet time for me because my dad, he never knew this, but my dad was amazing at spotting hit records. You know, I would play him certain things I was making. Oh, bless you. We're afraid to have him here. Yeah. He uh when I when I first started to have some success and my records went to number one, he he was so proud. Um and he again when I signed this band he said I think they were going to be huge for you sign them. Really? Yeah. And but this was a really crazy story about where how we signed the band because uh Louis Walsh was always calling me uh uh I've got the best band in the world. I've got the best in the world. And I said okay Lou okay I'll come to Dublin. I went to Dublin. He showcases this band. I I absolutely cannot bear them. And I said, "This is never going to work. They just don't look right, Louie. I don't think I I just The answer is no. I think a couple of them are okay." But you're wrong. And I said, "Okay, fine. I'm wrong, but I'm not signing them." And then 3 months later, he calls me and he goes, "Um, I've taken your advice. Uh, would you fly back?" And I'm like, "Okay." So, I fly back. Uh, they start the showcase for me. Within 30 seconds, I said, "I'm in. Done. Uh, you'll hear from my lawyer. Do you want to hear anymore?" "Nope. I I can see it. They sound great. They look great." Blah, blah, blah. We sign them. And then a month later, it turns out that he has dyed one of the guys hair blonde to sneak back into the band. Uh, and that's Shane because when when we uh auditioned them the second time, they all had blonde hair. I don't know why that made a difference, but uh it it's a typical Louis story. Um, they still succeeded though. They did fantastically well. Yeah. And in fact, I think we still have the record of uh for I think it was their first seven singles went to number one and I don't think that's ever happened again. You described that moment as as bittersweet. Um in your book I I read that you called home to tell your sort of family that Yeah. this album had gone to number one. Yeah. And the news that you got back was that your father had passed away from a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah. I I went to Germany to this um big conference and um uh you know I I did quite a big presentation on on the group and and the reaction in the room was huge and so and I I I I also was hearing the record was really selling and uh and I called and I could just tell something wasn't right And I I think someone said to my mom, "Don't tell Simon while he's there." And then I phoned back and she told me and I'm like, "God, I can't believe it." Cuz I genuinely at that point in my life, I just believed my parents were going to live forever. I mean, it was that um and yeah, it was it was tough. Um, however, I do believe in God and I do believe um uh cuz the hardest thing when you lose your parents is you you can't even think about them afterwards because it's too difficult, you know, everything is. And then after a while it's like when I have a question in my mind I do talk to them in my mind what would you do and I know what they would say. So that that I really do still believe they're with me, but that was very bittersweet moment, you know, um and and probably, you know, that, you know, I would have swapped everything. I'd succeeded, you know, take kept him around, you know. Um uh and all the things that you know he taught me over the years, it all just you know I it was the longest trip home from America. You know that that fly it was it was bad. It's a credit to the man. Yeah. And you know, like I said, look, thank God, you know, he he he was very wise and he he did give me a good steer. Um, and like I said, a lot of things I still do now. I still think of what would my dad say, you know, uh because he only lost his temper with me once and boy when he lost it. It was like I don't want to go there again. But, you know, he he never hit me. He you nothing like that, you know. But he raised his voice once at me and that was enough, you know. But he was very when he was angry you knew it. Um, but I also, you know, I think he would have got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show. I know he would have just found the whole thing really, really funny. He didn't see you on a TV show. No, no, no. Um, that came a few few years later. Um, uh, but, you know, at least, uh, he'd seen me, you know, succeed, you know, and that meant as much to him. I know as it did to me. Does the the purpose and the meaning of all the work you're doing change when you lose someone who was so central to um why you are where you are? I'm thinking about your your the sort of immediate people often describe they understand the nature of what their priorities should have been in their life when they experienced the loss of a parent because you're right. We grew up and even now it's almost like I think my parents are going to live forever. Yeah. It hasn't crossed my mind. I'm living my life as if they're going to live forever. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said, having gone through, you know, which was no question in my losing, you know, both my parents was the hardest thing that ever happened to me. But I can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and say cuz everyone says, you know, when you lose them, you know, in time it'll get better. And you think, no, it won't. And the truth is it does as long as you believe. And you have to believe that their presence is still there with you. And I do genuinely believe that with my mom and dad. And um Oh gosh. Okay. Um my mom um uh you know she started to get dementia but you know fortunately you know saw Eric she really wanted me to have a kid and she brought him this um uh brown blanket it and uh he still has it literally everything is about the brown blanket, you know, where's where's my brown blanket? And he said to me, uh, when he was about 2 or three after, you know, she passed away, he says, he just looked up, uh, at the sky one night and he said, I'm thinking about uh, Grandpa Eric and Julie. And it was just the way he said it. It was like, gosh, why would you say that now? and and that's when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us. You know, it's it's it's not a total loss. Um and I think you know maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them you know up until the point both of them passed away they were my best friends you know uh I could tell them anything we could talk about anything and you know it's it's how I feel for Eric you know it's just that pure love you know they just want the best for you And in return, do you feel the same about them? And it's how I feel about Eric. You know, it's everything starts to become full circle. Thank God. You know, you described the loss of your father um in an interview in your book where you said it put everything into perspective. All the things I thought were important, chart positions, doing showcases with the band, and everything else, none of it meant anything any more. Yeah, it's true. Really? Yeah. Genuinely. Um uh I can say that because of course I I really really enjoyed every successful moment of my career. Even when things haven't gone quite to plan, there's still a story, you know, or something to be learned from it. that combined joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose someone. It's there is, you know, it's it's it really is meaningless. Your life really seemed to change drastically when Eric was born. Yes. I think that's even like a bit of an understatement because yeah, when I speak to your team about Simon Pre, Eric, they describe a man that is a workaholic to say the least. I was reading about you staying up till 8:00 a.m. in the morning frequently to work and just this absolute obsession with detail and working Sunday, Saturday, Yeah. calling people at all hours. Um, pre Eric Simon, give me a true reflection of that man. If I was a fly on the wall in his life, what was what was I seeing every day? Well, I think particularly when I lost my mom, um, uh, I just was on a downward spiral at that point, you know. It was like uh I've lost everyone you know you know I I've lost my my my parent this finality now and what I said about the material things I've got everything just meant nothing at that point I I was desperately unhappy um I wasn't particularly enjoying my work and I just thought you know what I'm just gonna become a vampire and and I would work through till 7:00 8:00 in the morning. Um I would wake up at 2 or 3 in the afternoon and I actually got addicted to that kind of lifestyle which was I just loved the intensity of of it was almost like because of the the loss I'd had, I've got to find something else to fill it. And it was I'm just gonna become a ridiculous workaholic. And it and I was very successful, but I wasn't happy. Uh really really wasn't happy. Um uh and but it was like the the expression is this as good as it gets. That's how I felt. there were certain people in my life at that point giving me advice who would just shouldn't have been in my life. Um and uh and then when I got the call from Lauren which starts any call which starts with are you sitting down you know what's coming next. It was like are you sitting down? Yes. Well, and she told me and yes, it did uh uh absolutely uh change change everything in my life. I mean, it it made me happy again. For me, it was perfect because, you know, like I we were talking earlier on about our childhoods, you know, it was just brilliant. It's like fantastic. I remember the first time I watched Jungle Book with him and I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie. It was like, oh my god. But I remember how I felt when I saw The Jungle Book. He saved you in many respects, didn't he? Without question. Without question. Yeah. I I really really had reached the point where nothing mattered. Even to the point where I almost can't even remember everything from that period. It hit me so hard. I was like, cuz the the hardest thing also was being on television as well. Uh because I'm like, God, I feel like a clown here, you know, because I'm dying inside. And yet, you know, I've still got to, you know, do what I'm being paid to do, you know, uh as best as I could, but you know, I I put on a ton of weight. Uh I was eating just junk. Um, it was like if I had got hit by a bus the following day, well, I I'd be dead, but I wasn't worried about anything like that, you know. Was there a darkest day in that period that you record? Yeah. The whole the whole time was dark. Yeah. Um, I can absolutely relate to uh when people reach the lowest levels, you know, you possibly can where essentially, you know, being alive doesn't matter anymore, you know, because you just go, what have I got to live for? Did you have those thoughts? Yeah. Yeah. Not not thinking I want to take my own life but thinking if I if if if if something terrible happened I it wouldn't bother me you know to myself what I what I have learned fortunately is unfortunately we are all going to go through this and it's how we cope with it and being able to talk about it you know I mean I've spoken you know publicly about mental health particularly men's mental health because there's no question uh I've had I do still suffer from depression at times. I've really suffered from depression in the past. Um I am actually very thin skinned at times. Uh uh particularly when someone is disloyal, you know that I I take things like that very very badly. I noticed this because I read it's interesting. I I read um I was reading loads of articles and loads of things trying doing all this research and the word loyalty came up over and over and over again as something you would say sometimes in interviews as being really critically important to you. Yeah. I was thinking why is of all the people I've interviewed, why is loyalty the word that he uses when he describes artists he's worked with and bands and Louis Walsh. Yeah. Lou, I watched an interview where Lou Walsh said um the thing Simon loves about me is I'm loyal. Yeah. Um uh because of um you know a lot of what we spoke about today, you know, my upbringing, my working life, you know, nothing was ever handed to me on a plate, you know. So, um, but when people took the time, you know, like Pete Waterman, um, that, you know, there have been fortunately a lot of people over the years who've been amazing, have come in and helped me achieve because I could never have done what I did without, you know, the people who worked with me over the years. I've just been very lucky in the main. 99% of the people have been just fantastic. Um, however, uh, I I yeah, I take it really badly when someone who you consider to be a friend rewrites the narrative afterwards and they become uh because things haven't worked out for themselves, they have to blame somebody else. Right. And it's like, but we're all in that position, you know. Um, there's certain things I can't talk I would talk to privately privately about why that particular time some other people I was working with um look again on the bright side, as long as you're happy today, which I am, thank God, and I'm I'm at peace today, thank God. Um then then a lot of the bad things that happened previously, it's like well that that's your destiny, you know. Uh if if the lights had been red instead of green on a certain day, Eric may not have been conceived. And that's how I look at life. You know, your your new work life balance. Um I found it quite interesting. You've put some a lot of sort of parameters and boundaries in place in this new with this new post Eric Simon Cow. Some of which are you know you don't work Fridays. I read that. Not really. No. Not really. Okay. Um you don't engage in emails after sort of 5:30 6 p.m. Really? Never. Interesting. Never have social media. I I have it but I don't look at it. Okay. So, how do you stay awake when you log on your phone? Well, you know, I don't have a phone. You don't have a phone at all? Well, I have a car phone which I occasionally use. Um, which is actually an American phone. I And I swear I don't even know how to use it. So, you don't have a mobile phone? Uh, I have one that sits in the car. Okay. Uh, nine times out of 10, um, I'll use somebody else's phone because I don't even know how to work anymore. Uh, I hate them so much because I tell you why. I think they're boring. It's it's almost like for me it's like having a a toaster with you all the time. It's like it's a toaster and a phone is just as boring, you know? It's like toast is nice and occasionally a telephone call's nice but not all the bloody time. When did you make that decision to get rid of your phone? When I realized by not being on it for about 3 or 4 months a year, I was happier at that time. Um, and then when it was like, "Oh god, it's time to turn my phone back on." I start to dread it. And then one day, uh, I thought I'd lost it and it's, "Oh god, I've lost my life." And it's, "Oh, stop being so dramatic. It's a stupid telephone." Um, I don't use 99% of the things on it. Um, and I actually really like talking with people like we're talking now. I like meeting people and I like talking from a landline if I have to because the sound's nicer as well. I think people would be pretty shocked to hear that Simon Cal doesn't have a phone because you've got this like business empire you have to run. You've got all these people, these artists, these TV, you know, all these things. How do you navigate like my I'd have some like I'd have like an existential crisis if someone told me that I had to get rid of my phone because I think well my business is going to crumble or or obviously it depends what what you do. Um, for what I do, weirdly it kind of helps because um, you hear about the important things in life. You you don't hear about the unimportant things and that's the best way I suppose describing the advantages. So when something really serious happens within seconds you'll hear about it. when it's just some piece of gossip or something which I'm really not interested in uh and someone said did you hear about so and so it's like no and I'm not interested um because I'm not so someone has to get hold of you how do they contact you I always say honestly if you want to get hold of me and you know me you'll you'll get hold of me you just will promise you really will you will get a hold of me Um uh look I obviously you know I I I have um a PA um I have a partner um I have friends um how does she get hold of you? Uh she calls me at home and I mean it drives her crazy but uh what what would you say to the workaholics out there including me that haven't quite yet had life teach us the hard way? Oh my god, I don't know where to start. Like, what would you say to Simon at 31 years old, which is how old I am? Simon at 31. Well, I would say work out genuinely from from the the good things that have happened. How much time are you spending time where your gut is telling you this isn't worth the effort and but your ego is sort of saying but it's your idea so it must work. There are always going to be moments where you have made the wrong decision and sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should uh rather than just let's just hang on to that or um also understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative uh I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired. I'm certainly at my best when I've slept well. Um I'm feeling fit. um I'm feeling happy. Um then I'm in a completely different mindset. You know, I I would because I still uh see each episode before it goes out about three or four times. So don't forget these episodes are about the length of a movie. So I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week uh every second, every sound queue, every audience shot. I mean, it's the the the the focus you've got to give it. It's unbelievable. Um, so I think I would have said, you know what, Simon, why don't you enjoy what you're doing a little bit more? Um, is the fifth day going to really make a difference if you're working better on the four days? It's not really going to make any difference is the truth. Uh, by the way, it's much more fun having a three-day uh weekend than a two-day weekend. Um, and um, it's just stuff like that, I suppose. Did you used to think that if other people weren't working at the same tenacity as you, they weren't as interested or they, you know, cuz I'm thinking about how you now interact with the people you work with, if back then you're working till 8:00 a.m. in the morning, I imagine you're dragging a lot of people with you. YES, I WAS. GREAT laugh about it so far. Yeah, I I I I did drag a few people along with me. Um and I apologize. Um having said that, one thing you can't escape is that to be good at anything, you got to put the hours in. It is hard work. I mean, look, yes, people win the lottery. You hear about these crazy success stories, but they are one in literally a billion. I mean, for me, the majority of people I've met, uh, who haven't inherited anything, but have just built something on their own, they've done it because they're they're talented, they've got great instincts, and importantly, they have really really put the hours in. Uh because if somebody you know comes to work for me at say 21 years old and says you know 5:30 right I'm off and don't bother calling me on the weekend I'm going to go well I I'm not going to bet the house on you you know uh I when I was younger genuinely I didn't even think about weekends. It was like um when I was a runner, you know, I would do 18our days and loved every second of it because for every day I was doing it, I was learning something more. Um, and then I think you know there is a point where when hopefully you realize that you've kind of got your groove, you know what you're doing, you're being successful, you got a good team around you, then I think it's a question of okay, well then don't kill yourself in the process. Um I mean seriously um uh find uh and this is you know going back to what uh to phones you know which is and I'm the same with emails is if even if it's great news um and and you get the news at 7 8:00 at night you can't just go right I'm going to sleep now because your brain's going to go into overdrive and I think you know getting Good sleep is crucial. Absolutely crucial. Uh you hear about these people who survive from 4 hours sleep at night like how you know I need like 10 hours if possible. I really believe that sleep is the best medicine your body can have and the ability to be able to sleep peacefully you know uh that's really really important. Imagine if old Simon had you say that. He'd be like, "Yeah, right. You said don't kill yourself in the process." But 2020, you had a very very serious accident. Yeah. Which was unfortunately at the time of the pandemic, so we're all trapped inside anyway. You were on a electric motorbike where you had an accident and broke your back in three places. You had a very intense 6-hour surgery which included having a metal rod put into your back to stabilize it. Um, and according to all the accounts that I've heard, you were very lucky to be alive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, yeah. Uh, it was pretty bad. Um, I think that's an understatement from what I've heard. Uh, again, there is a silver lining. Uh, because I wasn't fit prior. I thought I was fit. I looked okay, but I wasn't fit. Uh I I was really getting up, even though I changed my hours, I was still getting up, going straight to the telephone, and I would sit by that telephone for hours and hours and hours, and I really wasn't getting the steps in. I wasn't eating properly, and all this kind of stuff. Um, so once I um, you know, I I I it was a bad accident and I knew it was bad the second it happened. Uh, and and the recovery was pretty difficult. However, the I had a fantastic nurse and she literally she was like, you know, you know how a cuckoo just pushes the bird out. Mhm. She just one day said to me, "Just get out into your garden. You can walk 20 paces. Just do it." And I did it. And it was hard. And then I just built up, built up, built up. And then I started to build up my step count over time. And then when I really had to put the proper steps in per day, my feet were just like for like ragged because they weren't used to walking. So, it was weird. If I if I had to go back in time again to get to where I am today, I would have gone through that again. As bad as it was, the upside was worth it because if I hadn't broken my back, I don't think I would have ever realized how unfit I really really was. you spoke about because the pandemic is an interesting time to have a like debilitating injury like that because you're trapped inside as it is. When you have a back injury or any severe injury like that, you're immobilized. Yeah. And all of this has a really significant impact on your mental health because I've sat here with people who have had a back injury like Craig David. I remember him telling me the darkest depression he had in his life was when he injured his back and couldn't move much anymore. Yeah. And how that has a knock-on effect of all things. But then you have the pandemic as well which is keeping you indoors. And I heard you were you're in inside for a long period of time because of that injury, because of the pandemic. Um, you stayed in your your house there for a long time. Was it almost a year or something crazy? Really? Yeah. What was if I was a fly on the wall in in that house during that time? What would I have seen? Well, again, the hard really the hardest thing was uh uh because you know the guy had to it got so bad I had to sign a form you know just before I had the operation which was you know if this doesn't work out uh will you allow us to switch the machine off? I'm like well that's encouraging just before I'm about to go under. Um, so I'm thinking, God, this could be that's this could be it. Um, but I was in so much pain. I was just thinking, just please, please just get me out of this pain. And and it the first three days afterwards, I was like, actually, it's painful, but not as bad as I thought. And the doctor said, "Yeah, you've got pain receptors in your spine right now. They're going to wear off in a couple of days. Get ready." And when they wore off, it was like, whoa. It was unbelievable. Um, and then I'm on all these uh painkilling drugs, blah blah blah. And do you know what I'm doing? I'm phoning my lawyer saying, "Where's my will?" And then I'm also trying to sell a show at the same time. Unfortunately, um, my my PA knew I was just all all over the place. and she was saying, "Um, yeah, the person you're trying to get hold of isn't available right now, but you know, obviously I was just so delirious. I was just all over the place for the first 3 days because after traumatic injury like that, you are." But I had a fantastic surgeon. Um, uh, I really got off the painkillers, uh, much earlier than, uh, they thought I would, like a month earlier, and that was for me really significant. And then when I started to put the steps in and getting up to 20 30,000 steps a day without my feet falling apart, it was like actually it was worth it. Genuinely worth it. Is this when you first went to therapy around this time? It was. Yeah. And and I think it was probably because it after that injury um and all the time I'd had to think about things, I really had a chance to kind of really think things through and go uh it it would be actually crazy for me not to go to therapy after everything I've gone through um and talk to somebody who is an expert. who you can trust, um, who can advise you, and it's a bit like really going to the gym, you know, it's like, wow, you feel great afterwards and it's, you know, you think initially, oh, it's going to be a bit embarrassing. How do I start the conversation? But they're so they're so good and they're so well trained at what they do. It gave me I don't know. It just made me feel better in so many ways because stuff that used to bother me I would talk to them about and and you almost kind of get the answer. You know it's going to be but someone needs to tell you other than yourself if that makes sense. You know the answer but you kind of need someone to validate it. Yeah. Um did you go to the the I've been to therapy. I've also been to therapy with my partner. Do couples therapy every week. Yeah, I've done that. Which is really useful. Yeah. My my god, hours would make the best reality show on the planet. Keep thinking. It's a good idea. Seriously. Um, what was the when you went to the therapist, was it because of how you were feeling following the the back injury and the pandemic? Or was it just more broadly that you hadn't processed a lot of things throughout the last couple of decades? Was there a specific issue you went with? That's a good question. I I think I I met a few people who had who were in the entertainment business and we spoke a lot about how do you deal with this? How do you deal with that? And they all well two people in particular said we went into therapy and and they said do have you tried it and I went no they said try it once see how how you feel. And when I went, it was very interesting because what you realize is that most of us have actually bottled stuff up, you know, somewhere in our bodies and it's like a release and and we all need that release cuz there's something in your brain which you haven't spoken about or something that's bothered you and you don't know who to talk about or whatever, whatever, whatever. And actually, it's not a weakness. If anything, it's the strength to be able to admit that we are all vulnerable, that we're none of us are perfect, that we do need help, and there are people much smarter than us who can just help you. And why not take advantage of that? Because I promise you, I don't believe there's a single person in the world who would go to a great therapist and then walk out and go, "Yeah, I didn't need that." But we all do, right? uh in the same way we're discovering things about nutrition and you know uh food and the importance of that and you know a lot of what we were talking about social media and some of the negativities all these things you know we we're not programmed I don't believe to deal with so much so so quickly so we've got to find you know different ways of um not just sorting your bodies out but sorting your your your your mental you know, it's not even mental health. It it's just life, you know, it's that, you know, just having someone who's trained to to to give you better priorities, other things to think about, things you don't have forgotten about. All those kind of things I learned through doing it. Has it had a big impact on you? Massive. Yeah. Massive. Yeah. And in fact, I I got out of the habit only because of my schedule. And I'm due back, I think, in about two or three weeks time. And I literally can't wait. Um because I I I really do think I found someone special. His name I His name's Justin. Uh if he's listening, Justin, you are the best. Uh I adore you. Um and he's I I consider him, you know, a friend. I I really really like him and respect him. Sometimes we don't get to say to people how much we appreciate them and all the impact we've had on them until they're gone because especially as men sometimes we can be a little well I'm just speaking for myself here I can uh I can feel a little bit I think how I was raised a little bit about expressing my emotions sometimes. Yeah. So Justin for example, what would you say to Justin as in terms of how he's helped you if he was listening? I think he he if we had a list of what's the most important things, the top 10 list of priorities. He's changed the order of what would have been my one to 10. He's shuffled the order. So something that might have been number eight might have become number three now. Um, and he's simplified my way of thinking, which is sim he said to Simon, I think you actually overthink a lot of things, by the way. And I'm like, actually, you got a point. I do, actually. Uh, and um, a lot of what, you know, we've been talking about today, a lot of this has come from working with Justin um, and and like I said, having absolute no embarrassment. whatsoever about the fact that I needed it. Um, I think uh, like I said, a lot of people in my opinion do need help full stop at some point in their lives and it is nothing to be embarrassed about. It It isn't. Eric comes to you and says, "Dad, you've built an incredible business. You've been incredibly successful. Dad, I need some advice. I want to be successful in my career, too. I'm planning on doing something special, which I don't know what what it is yet, Dad, but I want to be successful in when I uh go into the professional world. What do I what what advice would you give me, Dad? Um based on the career you've had, what are those foundations, those fundamentals? I'm going to say to him, be good at what you do and therefore be patient and learn. and the learning and the getting there is as enjoyable as being there because in my opinion it is having gone through both sides. Uh I've been at my happiest when I'm broke. I've been at my unhappiest at times when I've been wealthy and I've also been happy when I've been successful. Um uh the most important thing is on a Sunday night you want that feeling of excitement that Monday is coming and it's something to look forward to uh and that this is what we're supposed to do in our lives is do something which we enjoy and it's not a question of having more than other people or less. It's it's irrelevant. There's always people who are less than you and more than you. That's not really the the measure of of of your happiness. Your happiness stems from achieving something, believing in something. Um, and just loving what you do. I'm very lucky because I still love what I do. I mean, yes, there are times I'm like, "God, this is a long day today." or you know it hasn't been a great day but overall I pinch myself still because I'm I'm fortunate enough that I I'm able to do something which I really really love doing. I I love creating things. I love thinking of things and I also like the idea that somehow I'll make it happen and even if it takes me 10 years if I still have that strong belief somehow I'll try and make it happen and if it doesn't quite work out at least I can say well I gave it a shot. I'd also say to him don't blame other people if it doesn't work out. you know, you have to trust your instincts and you have to have a strong work ethic. Um but enjoy that and that's why you know as I said finding something which you're passionate about is is for me it's the most important thing more than anything else because like I said you know going back to the time when I was in the post room and an estate agent you know I loved being in the mail room a thousand times more than being an estate agent. It just, you know, it was a great example, you know, uh when I, you know, changed jobs to make more money, it actually made me more unhappy, uh because I didn't like the people, you know, hated the job. I'm not saying all estate agents are bad, by the way. This particular company at the time, they might be all right now, were awful then. Um but um that's what I think uh I would say to anyone I like uh or didn't like. Uh you know, find your passion and then try and be the best at it. Legacy. Legacy. Yeah. That's been front of mind for you recently, hasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It is a lot. Yeah. Um, and to your point, you know, when you are when we're doing something like this or something I've made in the past, I'm always aware or if I'm editing a clip on a on a great contestant, I'm very aware that that is their legacy as well, and I want to make that clip like perfection in my mind, you know. I want every second of it to be beautiful and cinematic, you know, and because they live on life online forever, these clips now. Um but yeah, legacy is I I think about this a lot definitely. And I think um somewhere I read it was a great quote about I I'm going to say this really badly, but it's along the lines of if you live your life with your eyes open wide enough, you will eventually find the person you're looking for, i.e. my Pete Waterman, you know, because don't think certainly when you're younger that you've got all the smarts to do it yourself, you know, being smart is finding the person who is smarter than you, who is willing to take you under their wing. Um, but to get that person to take you under their wing, you've got to show them, I'm prepared to put the work in as well. And if you could paint the picture of your own legacy, the legacy that Eric will remember of Simon Carl, what was what is that legacy that you would like to leave him with and I guess the world with? Oh, well, I think uh I like people. I mean, I genuinely like people. I remember being about 6 years old and seeing somebody um I think it was the ideal home exhibition and uh I went, "Oh my god, it's so and so. I'm completely starruck." And I just went over, "Hi, can I have your autograph?" And he went, "No." And I was like I was destroyed. And and I I I have never ever said no to somebody. It drives Lauren and even Eric sometimes crazy cuz I don't care in the middle of dinner or whatever I'm doing if someone wants a picture, an autograph, I'll I'm always say yes because I take it as a compliment, you know, because it's uh they watch something I've made and and I also know in reverse what it feels like um if someone's rude to you. Um because if that's if if if you don't like people, you can't do this job. Um so I hope my legacy will be that, you know, I I kind of achieved everything, you know, without a head start and I've treated people well. I I that's what I would like to think I'll hand over to Eric. Both of those things. Although you have changed your life in many ways, pretty extreme extreme ways, very extreme ways from the sort of the pre-Eeric Simon to the post Eric Simon who has put boundaries and balance in place and is focusing more, you know, you talked about that priority list of 10 things with your therapist. Um it's quite clear in everything I've I've read that number one priority right now is the family. Yeah. And everything is secondary to that. That's accurate, right? It's accurate. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Um but I think um what concerns me a lot at the moment is um and I hope things are going to change is that I do see bullying on the rise. Um and uh and I think that is uh partly due well actually a lot to do with social media. Um, I do see unfortunately people unhappy because they think they need material things in their life to make them happy. And look, of course, it's it's better to have money than not, but it's not everything. And, you know, like I said, I can genuinely say that because I've I've experienced both. I preferred it when I had money, but I it wasn't the end of the world when I didn't, you know, and um so I I just I get sad a lot of the times when I think about people who think, well, you know, I'm not great at school, so what am I going to do with my life? Or I need everything by the age of 21 and or blah blah blah blah blah. It's like actually, you know what? It doesn't have to be that way. you know, if you really really do have the patience and like I said, the you might have a friend who's got a more flashier job and blah blah blah, but if you if you're in it for the long hall, you're going to be better off at the end. You know, it's trying to get that message to people, you know. I was just thinking then about um One Direction. In fact, I'm friends with uh some of the boys. boys. I say some of the boys, one of the boys from One Direction and they How do you How do you like make them ambitious but at the same time make them not lose their mind because because I sat with Liam and he was he was on the podcast and he's he talked about his struggles struggling with all of these things the the change in his life. We all wish and dream for that. Yeah. But then the reality is something that no one can be prepared for. Yeah. The brain is not set up in such a way to deal with that amount of hysteria around you. So, has your thoughts around this changed or evolved based on your own experiences as Simon and the things you've been through? Well, uh, personally, I think it's better to have success than not. Yeah. Um, what is great, uh, I mean, what I said to the boys, and you know, it was quite obvious, you know, once they were on the show, they were going to be really, really successful with the right records. I mean, they just for me, they were like the the perfect group. Are they the most successful artist you've ever developed? Oh gosh, I I actually don't know the answer to that. No. I mean, I know they were very successful. They sold a lot of records. Um Okay. And they made a lot of money. Um uh I said to them a lot of what we're talking about which is don't ever complain about paparazzi because they are going to take your pictures. Um don't complain about invasion of privacy because people are going to always want a picture taken with you. Um don't complain about the long hours because there are going to be long hours. Um so if if none of this if any of this is a problem just do something else. I mean, because I promise you, all of this is going to come with it. There'll be times where you're going to go, "My god, this is a grueling schedule." And oh my god, what can't someone just leave me alone for one minute? Because I want I want I when I have my dinner, uh, why are you taking my picture? That is going to come with the territory. And the truth is, it's worth it. It's a very very very It's not even a price to pay. It's just comes with it. It's hard work. You are going to become well known. Um, and uh, you are going to lose a lot of your privacy. If you want to be an accountant, you're not going to have any of those issues. It just won't be as much fun. So, you know, some people want to be accountants, some people want a more exciting life. Um, I've always been a huge fan of bands because it's a much easier way. Uh, first of all, I think it's more fun being in a band than being a solo artist. Yeah. Uh, particularly if you like your bandmates. Um, it's a brilliant way to get noticed if you want to become uh a successful solo artist like they've all become. Um, and being in the band was the catalyst to that. You know, I'm about to do it again this year. Yes, I heard about this. You're searching for another boy band. Yeah. And I'm doing it because, you know, right now there isn't I don't think a band who has been as good as One Direction since One Direction. um in my opinion. Um and if you look at the amount of solo artists versus bands right now in the world in pop music, it is unbelievable. I mean, if you think of Mottown and that whole era, it was as many bands as there were solo artists. So, something uh has gone a miss. And the only way I know to put a band together is somebody has to audition them. So, we just thought, you know what, if I don't do it this year, I'm going to really regret it. So, let's just do it. Um, and we're going to document the whole process. So this time uh you're going to see exactly what happens uh from the minute we go we're going to do it to how you logistically do it. How do you choose the people? Blah blah blah. Uh because I think it will be interesting and and but there's no safety blanket on this in terms of I haven't gone to a record label and go and say right I'm doing this. Will you guarantee me a record deal? I've got to hope that the band are good enough to get a record deal. What's the secret source? [Music] People I mean it is personality. I mean, I think that's the one thing about One Direction is they all had great personalities and they were just interesting people and as uh the first time I saw them uh as a band uh after we asked them to be in a band, I was in Spain and I saw them walking up the beach and as they're walking up the beach, everyone's looking around. No one had ever heard of them at this point and I thought, "This is unbelievable. everyone's looking at these five boys as if they're already stars and there was some there was just this glow about them. Um, and because you know I've had hits with bands, I've had misses with bands and it could be that I was 1% off or I was 80% off. I don't know. U but when it doesn't work you the there's no there's no money in the world that will make something that isn't going to work work. M um it's just one of those things you you just got to hope you get lucky and find the right people. Have you got better at I don't know. It could be that I'm completely useless now. Um all I know is if I had to trust anyone to do it, I would trust me more than anyone else. I would. And are you waiting for a feeling? Is it like or is there like some kind of data in AI and some Excel spreadsheet that ranks them based on you know these things? Is it a feeling? Yeah, it it it has to be. Um and this is and this is the difficulty is that you are selling an act to somebody who I'm not. You know, your fans are going to be prim primarily teenagers. Um, so you've kind of got to guess what that audience are going to like. U, but don't overthink it because um I I've seen a lot of people, particularly recently, put bands together and they walk out and within one second I'm thinking all of this is wrong. I can tell that someone's told them what to wear. I know what their spiel's going to be. It's all rehearsed. Nothing spontaneous. And I'm thinking, why does that person, whoever's behind the scenes, why can't they let them just be themselves? That's why I said to One Direction, which is, look, I can just give you a broad kind of over, like I said, this is what's going to probably happen when you're successful. Um, uh, and then after a few years, you're going to want to leave the band. That's going to happen. and blah blah blah blah. Oh, no. We're going to be friends forever. I said, "Yeah, whatever." Um um do what you like. And that was sort of it. Just say, "Look, when you got a problem, come to me. Um uh it's really down to you to make this work. Uh you've got to love the records you make. You've got to influence the records you make. You can't dance, so don't try and dance. Um, don't ever hire a stylist because you've already got great taste. Um, and just be yourselves and most and really really have fun. Because there, like I said, there will be days where you're going to go, "Oh god, I'm really tired. I don't like this." And, you know, no one will leave me alone. And then in 10 years time, you're going to look back on this and go, "Wow, we had a blast." Could you have predicted? I know all the boys have done really well in their own endeavors, but Harry has become well he still is a mega star and often with boy bands once they break up you know they kind of some of them fizzle out and whatever but Harry seems to have just taken on you know he's really managed to find his own groove. Yeah, it appears I always I'm not I'm not going to lie. I mean the first time I met Harry he sang a Stevie Wander song. We spoke about pies. So, I'm not sitting there thinking you're going to become one of the most successful artists in the world in 12 years time. I mean, no one would have thought that. I just thought you're unbelievably charismatic and you're fun. Um, and the audience are like like you and great. And then for whatever reason it didn't work out in my opinion uh for them as solo artists, you know, for different reasons in that part of the show. And then we just had this idea in the moment to put them in a band. And then like I said, you know, where I think pretty much all of them have done great is that they've used the the the group as a vehicle to go where they really want to go in their lives. And would Harry be Harry without One Direction? Well, none of us could answer that. I I I I couldn't tell you. Um all I know is being in the group definitely made it easier, of course. And that's why uh I thought interestingly uh about seven or eight years ago, I thought there's not going to be any need for these shows anymore um because of social media. And here's the crazy thing is that the amount of UK artists that have broken globally in the last say seven years has fallen off a cliff. Literally, if you think about how many global artists British have broken globally in the last seven years, it's possibly three, which is crazy. Think of three. Well, [Laughter] So, um, is AI a concern, an opportunity? Does it cross your mind? Uh, I think both. Uh, I don't think you'll ever beat the real thing. Uh, having said that, um, it'll happen. I mean, sooner rather than later, I think there already is a Japanese artist who doesn't exist and she sells out stadiums. Um, so, uh, uh, there's no question it's going to it's going to happen, but people are always going to be more interested in the real thing. If you go to a concert, you know, you want to see those people. You want to say, I was within touching distance of that person, not something that doesn't exist. I I would I would agree to much a big extent. I actually think that um a lot of the people that are actually building AI, like Sam Alman the other day, he said he he believes that there's going to be a huge surge in people's demand and desire for real in-person entertainment and experiences, especially in a world if AI causes a little bit of a displacement in the job market and we have more free time, which is what he he's the guy that's building Chat GPT. He says that we're going to see the industry boom around entertainment. And I've actually got a billionaire friend that lives about 5 minutes from here in a penthouse. Billionaire in biotech, AI, everything. He's just a super smart guy. And when I sat with him, he said the same thing to me. Um he said, "Do you know what's going to boom?" He said, "People's need for entertainment." Yeah. In a world where a lot of the work can be even, you know, cars being a driver is the biggest employer in the world, the autonomous vehicles that are driving around San Francisco as taxis now are a glimpse of that future. So all these people that are going to be displaced in some way will need will have a lot of free time. Yeah. And that will cause us to be, you know, maybe live in communes, but also just to really go back to real life experiences. And I did a post the other day about this, how you see um opposites rise, polar opposites rise together, like digital music surged, vinyl records become a little bit popular, and bowling alleys are now, you know, seeing a surge and these sort of uh flight club and these sort of inerson experiences because we've become so digitalized. And I see entertainment as one of those things like the entertainment industry, concerts, festivals, yeah, as being a nice place to run to from headsets, you know. No, I think you're right. I think and it's it's a it's a good point you make about the the two opposites um fast fashion, slow fashion. We saw that rise as well. What is so fascinating as well is is is seeing these brands which are 50 60 years old suddenly become super huge again whether it's Lego whether it's Mario Brothers whether it's Barbie um because sometimes you know there's this feeling of um am I just saying things were better because I'm just getting cranky which is quite depressing and then I go actually no Queen or David Bowie or Elton John were are the best artists of all time. I mean, George Michael just is. Um, and I don't think there's anybody in the world as good as George Michael today. I genuinely don't. I wish there was because, by the way, he was one of the nicest people I'd ever met in my life. Really? Yeah. But no, I think it we're just going through a very interesting time right now. And uh I'm a great believer embrace anything that's going to help you. Um don't dismiss it. But um I still think you know when again when when I was talking to One Direction, I remember saying to them, "Our goal is for you to have enough hits that if you ever reform that you can do stadium tours. That means you got to have about 10 hit singles." Um uh because that's what people want to hear. They want to hear the hits. Um, and you know, if they ever did reform, that's exactly what would happen. Are they going to come back? I doubt it. You doubt it? I doubt it. Spice Girls came back. Spice Girls came back many years later. The one thing I regret is I should have kept the name. Oh, you should have owned the name. I should have the name. You didn't own the name? No. Who owns the name? They do. Oh, okay. That's the problem. Could have made an animation or whatever. Um, but when you give an artist the name, it's not yours. And that's my only regret. So, if you're listening, I'll buy it back from you. So, all five of them. Do it as a partnership. Well, uh I mean, yeah, I mean, sure. There we go. You were there. But that's the only thing I I do regret. Uh because if one of the band members for whatever reason say they don't want to tour, it can stop the others touring. So if it was me who owned the name, it wouldn't be a problem. You could do a tour with three of them. Ah, so that's what's stopping a tour because they what? Do they all own 25 20%. I believe so. Yes. I mean uh I can be very naive at times and that was me being very very naive. Uh, so next time that will be part of the deal. I have to own the name. They can still make most of the money, but I need to own the name. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. Ah, so the question that's been left for you by our previous guest was, "What one decision could you make today that would have the most positive impact on your life long term?" Don't eat sugar. Really? Yeah. Seriously, that's true. Sleeping. It's not good for you. Yeah. Thank you so much. [Music]