Sifuna Believed Impeaching Gachagua Was a Right move, Only To Work With Him Later | Public Square.

They fight today, they unite tomorrow. Is politics really about the people? Wesley responds. >> Tuna believed that impeaching Gashagago was the political choice he needs to make at that point. Now, I'm not making excuses for him. However, I understand the political realities of it. It people don't care too much about it. Uh in fact, [clears throat] in fact, when you think about it, he has admitted himself that when he impeached Kashagago, he thought he was doing the right thing. >> Yeah. He says >> but now he he circles back and finds that he needs to work with the same gashagua >> on gashagua. Is it tribalism or simply how the message is being delivered? >> As we speak in the construction of DCP, the topmost positions are occupied other than the party leader occupied by people who are not Kikuyu. For example, I'll talk about the deputy party leader Cleopas Malala. Cleopas Malala is a deputy party leader currently running for governor and heading spearheading the DCP campaign in Western. Western is not in central. The executive director of the party, the who's who that signed the actual documents that run the party every day is a man called Hzronaga very effective and in fact these two people planned the Kalao by election in terms of the nominations the logistics everything Malala delivers for us a seat in Kisa East right those are not Kikuy the chairman of the party is called para he's he's a messiah from Kaj >> Wesley says that there is a constitutional rule that Kenyans need to know about voting >> legally, right? People don't understand >> or haven't understood. There's a there's a very um jurispidential setting case called the minor kai case. >> Mhm. >> That case by and large the determination was the vote ends at the polling station. >> So whatever is said at the polling station is final and sacred. >> Mhm. >> That is why agents are told make sure you're there. Make sure you're observing. Make sure you're taking pictures of all that. >> He did not hold back on at full's remarks about young Kenyans leading the nation. His response brutal. >> Even fools grow old. So in the same way you hear somebody like at say something as foolish as you know at young people should not lead. They should go to the police and protect the country and all that. We want to protect our country economically. I am protecting my country by being a policy maker. Because you see the stroke of a pen, Miss B is very important, right? When you stroke your pen and you say that all children go to school for free the same way Kbaki did, then it becomes something that changes the lives of so many people. This and much more on this show. Hello and welcome to the show. My name is Miss Betty Kenji and thank you for tuning in. Now my guest today is a DCP strategist. He is a lawyer and also a policy maker. We are going to be dissecting what is happening in the DCP camp and a lot more. Welcome Wesley. >> Thank you so much. >> Please introduce yourself and say anything else that I haven't said. >> Well, thank you for the generous introduction. My name is Wesley. I am a lawyer by trade. I am also a consultant for DCP party especially on the areas of strategy and policy >> and uh with a bias to young people. I mean because I am a young person and would allow me to allow me to say hi to your viewers. Um it's a pleasure to be a guest on your show. >> Yeah. and um most specifically the pool of lipia county where I spent yesterday the most the better part of yesterday and the day before >> um just talking to people understanding what people are thinking and just taking stock of what the country is saying cuz that informs a lot of the policy and strategy work we are doing. So >> how how is the Lipia um Ebola facility center going on there? Let me tell you uh there was a lot of news about it when it was that whole story was popping. >> Yeah. >> But now it has gone quiet but it's not because it has stopped. >> It's because now Kenyans I think I think we we have we suffer from a lot of overwhelming information. So today wake up there's this there's that there's that and the other thing. So Kidogo people have almost like forgotten about the Ebola but it's still there. >> But who are people still coming to be quarantined there? Really? >> I wouldn't tell you. I wouldn't tell you because I am also guilty of the same thing because as much as I am a county member from Lyia information so the last thing I I remember it was stopped by the court and the government took the position that it will still proceed. So >> after that it has gone and subsided it's not now making the national news. >> Yeah. >> So maybe we wait for the people in the media to tell us if it's still going on. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> All right. So do you think DCP is ready to govern Kenya or are they better at opposing? >> I mean um you see where you start from as an opposition party is to yes oppose but people like to simplify the issues of opposition a lot. You know they like to say is to be anti-government. You have to first of all critique what is offered before you. um especially if you either have been part of the of that former government or at the very least you understand what the former government uh promised. >> Yeah. >> So there's an element of both, right? So there's an element of opposing what you see that is wrong which again you've seen we've been consistent about doing that and about ready to govern. I think it makes it even easier because when you sit with the top leadership of the party, they tell you our age, the young people who have criticized this government very heavily, um they did not vote for this government because one one reason or the other, but the biggest one being that they were not voters or they did not have uh the capacity to vote then. So when we sit down with the top leadership, they ask us if these people did not vote for that government and you saw how much pressure they put on the government. Imagine if for some reason they actually trusted us their vote. What do you think is going to happen? So it gives you a bit of clarity of mind for starters. It helps you understand the task ahead because it's not just purely about say we are ready to govern. It's about what's the job looking like, right? >> So readiness looks like not repeating mistakes first. what's working go back to basics. Um I like to use a football analogy sometimes right when the more football glows grows the more complicated things happen right there's tactics there's linemen and all that but sometimes to fix your team you just have to go back to basics. So the basics of this country are rooted in healthcare agriculture because we still have a serious huge food crisis education and also other things like security. So if you fix those some of those core points of governance then you start to have a functional country and you might not experience um because we acutely aware of what is going on and how bad the situation is. You might not experience an a turn in governance that looks like magic. It's going to be very progressive but progressive forward >> not a decline or a decrease in progression. Yeah. >> Well so your party leader G >> Mhm. has gone around of course the country mount Kenya especially that region especially >> but in terms of what is going to be done that hasn't come out clearly yet >> however the correction and the you know and the calling out has been there 100% and you've mentioned that's important >> when are we going to start hearing what actually they're going to do to take care of the healthare the schools >> specific in Fact I would like to challenge that that that question with a thought process. You see a lot of the time when you're talking to Kenyans which is something that as well we've when you're doing your own research and talking to people you get to understand the psyche of people is they want a very clear result. But the only problem with that is that they want it in a certain way. Maybe you have a fixed mindset of what you want to hear. However, if you really examine what regago has been saying and largely even the DC party, there's been actual actual talk of what they want to do. >> For example, let me give you an example. >> One of the things that is a major pain point for people right now is one small business um small businesses, they are very expensive. People are closing down their businesses more than we've seen at an unprecedented rate. Another much larger cry is the pay slip holders and around that conversation about and that is directly tied to microeconomics right the ability for you to go to a shop and your a thousand gets you more than it does today. We've been talking about hands off on that. For example, hands off on the pay slip, hands off of businesses, dignifying the pay slip. He keeps on talking about that. But largely you'll hear the critics of regarding ashagua. I mean people have problems with him for different reasons including personality which personality really doesn't apply to pragmatism. If I am offering you a solution to make you keep more money in your pocket, then that should be to your benefit. You don't have to like me for that to be real. Right? If we talk about healthcare for example, we've talked about um the challenges of SHA right we've talked about how for example as a policy framework um person who's involved in that kind of thing we I usually simplify healthcare to be something that should be simple >> effective and reliable really boring things it doesn't have to be uh rasmatas that this is happening this is what we've enrolled this much number of people it shouldn't be that it should be really reliable that if you get sick here in Nairobi, uh you can walk into your level three at your hood, right, and you can get some services. But if you're traveling to Kital and along the way you don't feel good, you can stop over somewhere and go into a level three hospital and get it. But when you hear about SH, you'll hear some people say it's working. You'll hear another person tell you, I went to the hospital and I'll stand back because it's not working. So you ask yourself, does that spell reliability? Is that effective? Is that um boring? and safe because that's what healthcare should be. you're not supposed to play aviator with with people's health because health does not postpone right so if you look at things like that we talk about agriculture right for the region that I come from uh mount Kenya there's a lot of talk about coffee reforms um tea reforms now the western region has picked up sugar reforms we're talking about that kind of thing and it's prioritizing the farmer literally right it's just that >> if he says it in a rally people don't pick it as policy they pick it as critique for William R but we telling Even when he talks about his tenure as deputy president, he says he worked a lot on these kinds of reforms. Right? If you talk about livestock, one of the other things that um really bothers people is the livestock question because the livestock question also has a security question. If we talk about fixing security, talk about putting professionals in um the national intelligence service and not uh there are certain places missing, you don't put loyalists, right? >> Put professionals, executors. One of them is security because if you're telling me that farmers in isol or in me yesterday had an interview I had a event in me and they talked about it security >> if you talk about how security should be and we're telling you when we take over government the first thing we're going to do is that we're going to put actual executives and professionals in some sectors because some sectors actually just need that right but people don't hear that because >> I feel like the reason they don't hear that is because what he says and what someone else like Linda I have a problem with all the political parties that are going around actually because I feel like no one has told us what exactly they're going to do and if you're saying that your party leader addresses these things when he goes to party you know to rallies and the policy makers don't pick that then do you think >> that there's need to change how that information is disseminated so that the audience that you're targeting >> can know because again we are not targeting the president that we are calling out. We are targeting the people on ground. Do you think your party leader rigid should change change rather how he now disseminates this information during rallies? I >> I do appreciate your point um on how the message comes out. However, I don't think there's a problem with it. I think it's a timing issue because right now you as you rightly put it, people know very well for exposes you know >> credible information. uh this is what's going to happen. It happens, right? It's a question of timing. Right now, your if you're in the opposition, and this is a purely political pragmatic approach, if you're in the opposition, what you want to do is galvanize your support first. And if you [music] want me sorry about that, if you want me to challenge how that thought process goes, I want you to think about how manifestos and agendas are disseminated in this country. And I'll give you an example of William R because I was part of that campaign in 2022. William R for example with the commitment with >> Oh, you were the part you part of the people that are convincing the world. >> Yes. Regrettably so, [laughter] but it's a lesson well learned. For example, one of the things that William did with his commitment to the young people, we went to I think it was NA stadium and by this time he had gone around the country with something he used to call the 47 listening to us >> and he had collected all those opinions and came and literally regurgitated those things to the young people with a bit of niche and commitment to the young people. for example, will give you a youth CS uh not a youth CS a young person in cabinet to advice on young on youth matters. For example, the alternative position for that is the women the women position that is held by Harriet Chay now. So as a result of going around listening he got to understand and to sort of like give a solution right or a proposed solution. If you look at what Shagago is doing right now when he goes to for example when he was in Amuadikir right the people of Amuradikir talked about the land issues there they talked about um there's this one problematic piece of land they have there I can't remember the name it's just escaped me but he talked about that when you go to Narok they have the same problems today they inased the same thing when you go to Lipia they tell you that um there's a word there called Muran Muran is constantly Lip is a very unique county cuz that's my county. We we are not a county that fights within us but we experience overspill of violence outside right so when the other counties around us the bingo Samburu all that they fight they come into >> so when you find when we go there we collect opinions we you don't just sit there and we say one time collect opinions that informs the party leader on what to say so when he addresses a security issue it is communicated and they know he's speaking directly to the issues about us while I do agree that the message comes out more like critique right it's only a matter of timing because remember DCP as active as we are haven't even launched our party what if the day we launch our party is the day we give you our manifesto right now politically the practical bit of it right now is to galvanize support and that's what everybody is doing you just saw in mananchi yesterday they went to galvanize support in meu they were joined by the former governor Kav Mangaza when we went to like that's what we are doing so that by the time you're coming to address people right you have something concrete to give them as opposed to when the reverse is true because Kenyans are a very interesting species if you come to them with a manifesto first they get tired very easily and I'll give you examples okay >> so you see now they're not tired now they still waiting >> yes they're still waiting and that's that's political smartness because if you look at like somebody like Oki Omata he had a very clear agenda when he proposed his bid to be Right. Maraga did the same. But after some time, Kenyans just literally just turned the other way. >> Did they? I feel like it's them that stopped. >> Absolutely not. Politicians respond to what they see. >> Being a polit Let me tell you, >> you probably didn't have a strategy. >> Let me tell you. No, no, no. Miss Gingi, let me tell you, politics is like dating. If you're a man and you're dating, >> if you're smart, you don't waste your time talking to a woman who is not responding to you. >> Strategy. strategy. Exactly. >> Meaning they didn't have strategy. [laughter] >> If I come to you, Miss Ginger and tell you, "Minding, I've just met you outside the door. I think you look good." And then I tell you, Miss Kinja, I want to marry you. I've laid out my agenda. So, but I haven't probed. >> It's a red flag. Yeah. >> You see, I haven't probed. Are we are you in that space? Are you in a place of a different kind of journey? But I've just laid it out on the table. And then you lose interest. You get But first, if I sit down, I have a conversation with you. I know what your interests are, what are our common points, then I have more chances of success. Right? That's how the opposition is playing it because that's how Kenyans are. >> Makes sense. You've mentioned that you go in a certain location, you know, the people on ground pick up, you know, um feedback, they take to the party leader, then the party leader comes and addresses and that's why those people on ground understand what this person is talking about >> and they demand >> and they demand. So does that mean the accusations of Regi is a is a tribal leader? >> True. >> I think that's that's a question of who you ask because if you ask people in government, they will absolutely say yes. But if you look at even his history when he was in >> as per what he's doing, let's let me give you context because that's a very short piece of content. He talks about even the people he employed in his personal stuff. the people and you know if you have if you're in this space you know having a P having a driver having a security officer those are really personal roles you don't just give to anybody a lot of them are not even his tribe right but let's move even to the DCP part if you look at DCP as we speak in the construction of DCP the topmost positions are occupied other than the party lead are occupied by people who are not kikuyo for example I'll talk about the deputy party leader Cleopas Malala Cleopas Malala He's a deputy party leader currently running for governor and heading spearheading the DCP campaign in Western. Western is not in central right. >> There was a rumor that DCP is the rumoring. We like rumors because they make us popular. >> Confirm. Is it true or a lie? >> It is absolutely not true. I mean if you listen to that [laughter] it's even funny to think about. But anyway, Cleopas Malala um he's the deputy party leader leading that campaign there right um the executive director of the party the who's who that sign the actual documents that run the party every day is a man called noaga very effective and in fact these two people planned the bi-election in terms of the nominations the logistics everything yen creopas malala delivers for us a seat in kisa east right those are not kiku the chairman of the party is called para he's he's he's a messiah from Kajiad. So I'm telling you whoever drives that tribal narrative is because they are detractors of reg practically to he's no different from anybody what anybody else does. William R came into power in 2013 because he had 60 68 MPs in URP and he those 68 MPs largely came from the rift valley rift valley uh part of Kenya. You look at Huru Kata, he had 78 MPs from TNA who are largely from Mount Kenya. Baba who is said to be the most national leader this country has ever produced. When he first got into politics, >> he first of all went and consolidated people from his bucket and not the larger Nyanza region, South Nyanza got about 20 18 MPs then went out to look for more. So that's how politics is done. Miss Kinj as I wind up that particular question. >> It's not as a result of being the most tribal person that he he has to start from region is because >> in Kenya we haven't developed a another basic unit of mobilization aside from our tribe. You see for example if you go to someone and you tell them my name is miss >> we have Jenzi there's another one that has been >> and I'll talk about Jenzi just now. >> Okay. >> If you tell somebody you're ki >> they'll start mo. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> they won't even assume that you might not know how to speak it, right? They'll call you, right? Because they've already put you in a box, >> which sometimes works in my favor because people don't think I am Kiko, which is a good thing. >> Um, with respect to Gen Z in 2024, 2025, >> the old establishment of politics was very scared. >> I was running a program called Kura, right? And the reason why I started up that initiative was because I sat with an MP from the valley who I won't mention. And he told me, "You guys, because you don't have the patience to wake up at 520 before actually protest after So I looked at it and I thought for a moment there we had a new basic structure of mobilization. >> But we let it slip the moment we talked about partyless and leaderless because if you look at a a cause without a leader is like a like a plane without a pilot. It it goes nowhere right and then if we say partyless the structure of mobilization in our country is through parties. You cannot as missing affect change alone. who thinks you think you form a caucus. That caucus translates into a party and it can move something. But the moment they saw at Akuna, we just want to remain behind the curtains but we want good governance. That's when now you are planted for even moles. But then now there's Sifuna who has managed to garner that um you know >> I think I think Sifuna is is um capturing the minds of the urban >> Jenzi >> and I will tell you not only the urban Jenzi to an extent to the to an extent also Jenz's in other places but you also have to remember >> Jenz's have also gone through a political transition a bit >> in the sense that >> in the sense that they've also understood one you can't remain >> okay >> that's Okay. Yeah. If you're going to speak about specifically >> in fact I was one of the first people to criticize and say you need to track who is >> okay >> and that's why they set up that website that counts right >> if you look at DCP DCP has one of the highest number of young aspirants have over a thousand people in at least every word in m Kenya [music] there about seven people competing for Even if you don't, let's say you run it, >> you still have your bout with leadership, you can be absorbed somewhere, you can be given a role to do, you know, even if you're running for an MCA >> and you miss it, you can be told to be award administrator, right? But that only works if your party is strong enough. That's why you see a lot of people are going to DCP, even the young people. In fact is one of the only places. >> So if doesn't v for presidential candidate is your party still going to be as powerful. >> Absolutely. You see another thing that people have also realized is that governance is not only at the executive space. >> Yeah. I want you to think about it for a second and name me one thing R has done that he has not needed MPs >> finance bill which was the bulk of his problems MPs >> and by realizing that we've come to a certain conclusion that if your MPs fear you more than they fear the president they will do the right thing >> so even if Rig is not in the on the ballot which as at now he is right >> is he >> yeah yeah he is Okay. >> Um, if he's not at the ballot, >> we also need to strengthen our parliamentary numbers because all these things we are saying, me as a policy policy maker, I am only valuable if some of the policies we suggest get to parliament. The presidency is a bonus >> because if I can push for better educational systems, if I can push for um us to have a better system of taxation, right, you do that through through parliament. the president does not sit in parliament. So it will be still a strong and that's why you're seeing even people who are in government some who are formerly government are now coming to DCP to look for those votes within the parliamentary space. So the strength of DCP does not come from regard being president only. In fact when you sit with him he tells you I go and lead people in saying what they are saying. Don't come up with ideas and tell people we're going to go this direction while they going this one. You're going to be left there alone. That's why he even says if I go to William R, I will go alone. So trust me, if you think um not William R, if you think Gashagago is radical, you then should listen to his supporters because they are more radical. >> They want they want change more than he does. >> So if Colono today said it's my time, I am ready to lead this country. >> Is DCP going to support him? Well, that conversation is a bit above my pay grade, but >> according from what he said and from what we know, >> aside from my party and my affiliations in DCP, when you talk to people, in fact, I was having this with my grandmother the other day. What he's saying is you guys in the opposition, >> we already know who we do not want. >> Yeah. So you guys give us someone that we can exercise this not wanting >> through. So that is a conversation now that has to be had and of course there are different metrics to look at that support mobilization number of votes. >> So let's say for example this enemy does not win and the opposition wins >> and the enemy is no longer there. >> Does this mean this united opposition is going to crumble because they were united by one? see that that question is is premised on the fact that the enemy you're personalizing the enemy but the enemy is um symbolism of what's wrong with the country. >> For example, >> he is but he is the leader. >> He's a leader. Absolutely. William R is the leader of government. So unfortunately he the the heat will go directly to the bullet. So but unfortunately even if William lives today there are things you need to address beyond the person of William R. For example, if you're talking about SHA as a system, sha as a system is not written William R. Sha, it's social health authority, social health insurance fund. Those are the actual things written there. That's something you have to contend with because it's healthcare. You understand? So, so long as the problems of the people remain the same, >> William R is a cherry on the on top because even when you hear the opposition speak, even when you hear Sifuna speak, he talks about following the constitution. For him, it's constitutionalism. for us it's restorative governance right so when you bring those two things together then you have a common agenda outside of William it's just that all these things are a prerequisite William leaving is a prerequisite to us doing all these things that's why him going is the gateway for us to doing all these other things that we want to do >> are we hey I hope we are going to do that I really hope because sometimes we It focus so much on the enemy >> and then we forget what the agenda was in the first place. >> You hate so much you forget to love. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, of course, Kashagua has been encouraging the small parties to consolidate together and come to DCP. >> Mhm. No, I don't think he's ever said that. That's that's incorrect. >> I mean, is let's join. Let's join. Let's join. And also he right now [laughter] everyone says he's the the the presidential aspirant of the opposition. >> Gashagua says so. Cifuna says so. Konzo said so. >> We have the likes of Matiangi Maraga all these people are in opposition. >> Who is going to live for the other really? >> I mean them living for the other is not a question of what they want to do or not. It's a question of demands of the people. So at the end of the day, someone has to live for the other. There can only be one. That's what people are saying. However, the psychology and the political science behind it is and this is what I'm talking about the political science of it, right? People have an idea of what they need to do, right? Or they what they need to be done. All right? and they seeing of this maybe seven options, these are the people who are here. Now, when everyone goes and says that I'm going to be on the ballot and going to be on the ballot, it's part of galvanizing support as well. >> It's um it's sort of like a political psyche of telling people what I want from you is your support. >> And the the the social contract here is that when you give me your support, I'm not going to lead your support away from the common cause. because he has deviated from the agenda. Remember >> your choice is a consequence of an agenda that has already been set. This is unlike 2002 where the agenda was not properly set. The agenda was Moy must go but the people were not saying who you understand here they are being told R needs to go but for R to go we know you guys need to compete to remove one person to compete with him. So that part was not there in 2002. They were not saying you guys unite. They believed Kbaki could win. Yachai believed he could win. But when you look at now our presidential candidate but if your bid impedes going sacrifice it. >> So that agenda is very heavy and they know they know because you guys need to unite. So if they they learn that and someone else from Western says the same, you've heard my DPL Cleote say the same. It's because their agenda is very overarching and heavy. >> Kenyan politics has been known to have politicians who are campaigning on this side. Nakumb on this other side. So one, do you believe is genuinely part of the opposition um party right now or >> um or a mole? Because there are people who are saying he's a mole and then also how are you able to actually identify a genuine person who is part of a certain party? >> Uh I'll start with that last question. Time usually exposes a lot. >> Mhm. time because if someone is there for a mission, >> right? >> Um let's say someone has come to this studio and their mission is to steal your phone. >> Mhm. >> They will stay here until they get the opportunity to. But if you know that mission and you keep your phone with you, they will eventually reveal themselves. They will start telling you. So it works the same way with molds, right? Moles are not sometimes it tells after the election is done. It has to take a really serious camp and then you find your person from somewhere else has also come to see Miss B. So now immediately unless you in a vacuum right unless you're in a vacuum and then this other thing uh of um what did you ask the first question? >> Um if you believe genuinely part of the opposition >> you see forindi I've been very consistent with what I've said about him. One he was very indecisive >> for a long time and right now he's paying for the sins of that indecisiveness. >> You see sometimes Kenyans usually say >> a choice even wrong is better than no choice at all. M >> that's why you'll see people will not like but they know where his choice is >> they know rain come shine but when you're not doing your core primary um role of legislation of being a legislature which is representing your people right >> it sheds a doubt on you and then I said the moment he makes his decision which he has done now which he's now allegedly saying he's in opposition and he's for one term right genuine as his effort thoughts may be he has two political opponents to compete with. >> Yeah. >> The physical opponents like us who he's going to meet in the ground that's obvious >> and then the perceptional opponent which is now he has to compete against the fact that now people even the people at the ground think he is a mo >> because where were you what were you doing that whole time when all these injustices were happening against other opposition parties? You were also quiet. So now what you're seeing do is try to work away from that perceptional narrative that has been built around him. So as to whether he is a mole, as to whether he is genuine, it's going time is going to give it away soon enough. And uh one of the shest signs to know and get your answer is if people from government start trooping there without necess necessary being vetted properly or just going there as a way to avoid DCP and not run with UDA and you had him that's the first thing he countered on day two he said >> when he was in Makoyu he said that if you think you have been in government he calls it the wheelbarrow party now >> if you've been in the wheelbarrow party and You think that PPK is going to be escape route and you've been abusing leaders in the opposition especially regard PPK is not a home for you. That is a perceptional damage control. >> Yeah. >> Because he doesn't want some minister in government to leave government and come run for a governor seat under his party. So it's his mountain to climb. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Now, as a lawyer, do you believe Kenya's institutions are able to actually conduct a free and fair election in 2027 where we are right now? >> Um, they have the resources, they are well legislated towards it, >> but the the implementation, the personalities around it, they bring a lot of problems >> and people expect us in DCP to say yes because we recently won with a landslide. >> Yeah. But it does not negate the things we saw. >> We were constantly telling them we being attacked. There was instances of voter bribery that were well reported and documented. But the IBC did not do anything and that is one constituency. >> So what if they receive 40 crisis reports from 40 constituencies, what are they going to do? So it's a question of now when you hear now the reverse or the reaction to that is now we have to protect our vote. We have to make sure that um people are well educated around the scopes and the limits or during election day. It is not as a result people like to say and reduce it to gashagago is very radical. No, because for example the IBC has a limit of up to what distance you can stay away from the polling station and in we implemented that. Okay, fine. You're saying after primary school whatever is happening there because we have our agents, they have their agents, it's going to be counted. But if we let this place remain open, we might have goons infiltrating. So you see that is a response of the ineptitude of IBC. So I can tell you for sure regardless of the fact that we won because that was a major political statement. >> IBC right now has to contend with the fact that it has exhibited ineptitude >> and they are being right now perceived as a William R commission. >> So also as a lawyer do you what is that? Um, as a lawyer, what is that constitutional rights or information that you feel most Kenyans >> misunderstand the most when it comes to elections? >> To elections specifically. >> Yes. Yes. Elections. >> Um, I think I think um legally, right, people don't understand >> or haven't understood. There's a there's a very um jurispential setting case called the minor kai case. Mhm. >> That case by and large the determination was the vote ends at the polling station. >> Mhm. >> So whatever he said at the polling station is final and sacred. >> Mhm. >> That is why agents are told make sure you're there. Make sure you're observing. Make sure you're taking pictures of all that. The reason why I say that is a bit misunderstood is because then it speaks to the fact that >> we don't really need a commissioner at Bulmer to announce our results. You could it's a simple it's a simple ting issue really >> cuz I'll tell you this from experience right >> I was a chief agent in Lipia North and Lipia north is a bit dicey when it comes to uh the politics of Lipia because tribal issues there right people fight sometimes >> oh yeah cuz also a lot of cities whatever >> especially in the north side there's a huge nomadic nomadic people there. >> So I was a chief agent there and I remember that polling station. Uh I stayed there for a while because of the nature of the roads there. The infrastructure is not very good. So it took some time before we got the final vote at the constituency ting center and >> at that point when the results came in and we collected the results >> I can't remember the specific number but Raa had won with 14,000 and R got I think 12,000 or 13,000. I mean your viewers can commence there and tell tell us what it was exactly. >> But you see I walked out of there knowing the presidential vote for Lipia North has gone to Baba. >> You understand? >> Lipia West had gone to R. Likeia East had gone to R. So it is safe to say R by and large won like county. You understand? So if you do a simple addition if they got if got 13,000 maybe 100,000 60,000 you can collect this simply and say like gave r 250,000 votes. You repeat the same in every county. You really do not need a a person at the at the bombers to announce and acquire singing for 15 hours non-stop. You see that one is just creates anxiety and tension among Kenyans. So I think the fact that people don't really know the impact of the minor ki case >> then we are hoodwinkedked about that issue about the the the bomb style incident. So I think it would be really simplified. It's something that is tested and done especially in America. Journalists are the one who call the election. They tell you because you guys you send your people there. You have agents in different places who are observing. So you say if for example just to use examples of uh the states in America >> you'll use you'll say Chicago has gone to uh Kla Harris uh Iowa has gone to Trump >> and they can narrow it down down down to the district cuz they have their people there. So you don't have to wait in anxiety. So now you start doing your math. Hey at this point in time we've won 17 counties the other person has 15 counties. There are eight counties remaining just for example. So you're saying we'll have 20 but five we don't know. So now you start now the anxiety is different and it's very political. It's not to the people that would risk violence. So I think that's one thing that is misunderstood and uh it's something that we would there's room for improvement. Yeah. >> As a political strategist is there any law that you'd want to change? For instance, if DCP >> that one >> let elections be called at the local level >> so that now um >> if a county goes to a certain presidential candidate it's just a matter of addition imagine it's just it's just 47 additions right if you add if you add 47 times it's not even it's something that even primary school kids can do I would want that to be very easy I would want press freedom to be very >> easy as well in terms of access in terms of security for the in order so that they can add to this uh transparent um verifiable and free and fair election. Yes, there are laws in the election acts that um speak to filming and press freedom, but I would want it to be better implemented because Kenya is not Kenya is not short of laws. We have actually very good laws just that the goodwill and the um implementation is >> often shoddy. >> Yeah. and know that that law is yet to be changed >> and you know we've heard the Gen Z saying but you've also raised the issue of goons because when you see it's crowded then there's a chance of even people taking advantage and bringing frackers you know >> what's going to happen because unfortunately led to the death of two people >> but let me tell The logistical nightmare of goons >> in onalo which was the whole eye of Kenya was ono. >> There were 2,000 plain cloth officers deployed there. >> 2,000 >> 2,000 pl officers deployed there. There were different squadrons of police. So there were I think there was ATP I'm not sure ATP was there but there were special squadrons of the police who are also assisting in that. >> Right. And aside from that, the government had put a lot of machinery in terms of their own agency to protect their own vote for lack of a better word. >> However, you need to understand even with 2,000 votes, the votes that were ended up being casted by the way, which was I think 60%. >> A little over 60%. >> Were 40,000. >> 40,000 is still what how many times more than 2,000 quite a lot. So even one you have to understand police represent a certain number of people right? So if one police represents maybe 300 people remember there's always going to be 300 people for one police. >> So for them to deploy police like that in the whole country >> they would need a lot of policemen. It's not even logistically possible. and then goons are not going to be available to be transported across countries to rig elections. >> So unfortunately the government is facing a huge nightmare and um that nightmare of is of one it's logistically impossible two it's not going to be practical to deploy goods in 290 constituency it's going to be hard. So now they employing a bit of soft tactics. It's going to it's supposed to it's going to go even higher because they're trying to limit what you can access how much you can buy cuz right now after you buy and these are complaints from people by the way >> after you buy the 1GB I think three times or four times >> it goes away for an hour right >> and now you're left with another offer of 250 MB for 24 hours. You know the internet [laughter] to 50. So they're trying to make that process very expensive >> and Kenyans are broker. The economy is becoming so they won't have the money. >> Exactly. So now they're trying to to to frustrate you financially which is a problem that is their responsibility to fix. >> So it's because the physical is becoming harder. >> Yeah. >> Because I want to come juicy. I had my party leader say the only people we allowed to go home is people who are over 60 and women who are pregnant past 4 months. Everybody else. >> Yeah. >> You still can run. >> You see among all these people we have even in the United opposition there are people who feel these people are still in the system. Yeah. They are still the same same people. they are still going to do the same thing. What would you like to tell a young person who does not support anyone in the opposition or President R himself? >> Mhm. >> One I would tell that young person leadership does not come in a vacuum. Um there's a difference between ideal politics and realistic politics. While I do agree some things need to shift and trust me they have already shifted especially with the young people who are coming into into the leadership space they are changing even how parties operate and associate with young people >> um cuz now they can't do the same thing they used to do right you have to acknowledge that we do not have a monopoly of knowledge as young people there's a mistake that our our age mates do you think that the older generation are complete dards or fools that is you know you know that that whole kabe between Gen Z and millennials >> millennials. Yeah. >> Um and I've come to from a point where I've sat with people from my age >> and I am biased to people from my age and my age but I've also appreciated what millennials and baby boomers bring because sometimes they bring a wealth of knowledge that you might not have. >> They do. Look at look at how even government runs, right? Government, it's very risky for you as a president to come in and fire everybody because some of those people carry institutional memory. You might have the fresh energy, a fresh vibe, you want a new country, but you can't exactly fire everybody because then you will shoot yourself in the foot when you don't know how something works or what's the procedure. That cannot be taught in a textbook because when you go to Kenya School of Government and learn about governance, they don't teach you about the everyday practice. M >> right same way as lawyers we go to KSL and they teach you the books right but when you come to practice you realize people do things differently they are sh pract practitioners that if you're not careful they will mess you up and your client so in the same way a lecture of mine used to say no client of yours is an experiment just do your job right in the same way do not experiment with politics because politics is your life unfortunately >> and when you say you're going to throw out the older people because they are older and you know you feel like you want a new vibe it's uh mistake with consequences because these same older people are the ones who fought against Moy to give us to remove section this section 2A section 2A of the constitution that said it was supposed to be one party we are enjoying sifuna being told to look for a party because of them that fight they fought the previous one before them they fought for independence right every generation has its fight >> right now we are fighting for transparency accountability good governance but also economic empowerment right >> you have to look at for example if you look at somebody like maybe the governor of the central bank they have a lot of institutional me they have something to give you so I would tell them >> while you do not lose your foundational principles and beliefs >> always accommodate the fact that or leave room to learn from the other generation it it always adds value adds value >> do you think um because now you see that narrative of millennials thinking the young people do not love the networks the the memory that you've just mentioned >> and that's probably the same uh sentiments with Francis at that he thinks young people should protect the country and not leave >> the police. >> Yeah. So what happens because that's the same thing you know the older generation is saying about Sifuna. So is that really legit to not give someone a presidential seat? >> No it it goes both ways. You know there was a time miss be I was sitting with someone an older person in fact older than me by a good number of years >> and they told me you know Wesley you cannot respect every older person than you >> and I was like why they told me >> h that is something you earn right and let me ask you some of your age mates are foolish use that word some of your age mates are foolish you think they will not grow old even fools grow old so in the same way you hear somebody like at say something as foolish as you know at young people should not lead they should go to the police and protect the country and all that. We want to protect our country economically. >> I am protecting my country by being a policy maker because you see the stroke of a pen miss is very important. Right? When you stroke your pen and you say that all children go to school for free the same way Kbaki did then it becomes something that changes the lives of so many people. In fact, >> so I I look at that situation being it's the same advice, right? And for our generation, the advantage of it is we have a benefit of right in fact that becomes a fool for me. >> Yeah. >> But now we also talk back. So it becomes it creates a situation where they downplay our efforts or they underestimate us. And in our efforts to prove ourselves PC, we push back and say new water. You understand? So it's a it's a that's even not a political issue. It's a social issue that needs to be fixed. Just leave some room for someone else. Leave some room for the young person in the room to tell you this this is not an effective way of doing doing it. >> Yeah. M and I mean yeah clearly the young people are looking quite rebellious because I saw um you know someone say that do not um you know disrespect or insult the president but then someone else says the president is doing the same so it's more like aura for aura >> aura for aura and and you see um they usually say >> all is fair in love and war >> you look at the reason why I wouldn't say that it's good to insult any leader >> however when you look at what the leadership is doing themselves Right? Because unfortunately these insults don't come from only idleness as the political class would tell you. >> It comes from the fact that what they doing in leadership directly affects your life. For example, look at this simple podcast setup, right? >> The cost of buying this equipment for any of you deciding to venture out alone will cost you so much. Right? And now the government wants to also start looking into ways of getting to the digital economy of which you know for example our CRM here in is not as much as in US. So now if you're going to invest 1.5 million to get these things and then YouTube tells you you need now 4,000 8,000 watch hours you get a coin000 at the end of the month. So now those those those conversations when someone says because then they are not talking to those people to start talking about the fact that Kenya is one of the countries that uses the internet the most right people are chronically online Kenyans are the ones who train AI models right then you should be negotiating with those companies to have a bias to Kenya right so if the creators are going to say um we need to earn more more from money right from our content right those in that includes people who are chronically online the remote workers the copyriters the people who transcribe the YouTube videos out of Kenyans do it I want you to even dare you right now >> check Tik Tok >> Tik Tok squeeze you type a name that is supposed to present a sticker in Swahili it gives you almost a like for like suggestion of what that is in English which means there are some people who are training the algorithm yeah Tik Tok swahili so why not those people not being considered. >> Yeah, >> it it is this a converation you need to have with people so they understand. So I mean you know how our age starts phone calls they bear the responsibility and they're not doing it. In fact, in Japan, they're training kids six years about AI. >> That person has an advantage over a child in Kenya. So those are the kinds of things. >> Yeah. If you are a good leader, you would be quiet, maybe feel bad if you need to because it's allowed, >> but do your research and see how you can improve that. >> Yeah. >> And guess what? The creatives were supposed to sort of monetize their, you know, their content. Some have, most have not. And guess what? There's double taxation now on YouTube creators. Kenya and now USA. >> Absolutely. And you see they don't know because or if they know they they're not willing to do anything with it because for a long time even the way the president will package taking manpower outside >> it's because Kenyans we are very industrious right what are online if you're not looking at it as industriousness you're looking at it as idleness then you have the wrong idea of leadership because if a person is chronically online like for example I consume a lot of internet and do a lot of verification on the social media platforms right those are people who are putting out this stuff if you cannot go and negotiate a bias to them okay fine if you guys want more tax it's fine but our CRM >> 1300 26000 maybe 40% >> is still more money than you had you understand we can negotiate about fairness but let's get through the law first. So now creators want to struggle and in fact if you look at content creators now they're angling towards brands not monetizing from the actual platform it's brands >> and brands are finite brands require you to change yourself >> brands require you to follow some set of rules >> so political opinion I don't see how Nivea will want to work with you oh my god I said nia but a a lotion brand will want to work with you >> so it becomes problematic for you as opposed to if I make content let's Tik Tok pay me >> understand >> that's a government responsibility but our ICT minister is what how many years old [laughter] >> it is they had started having the conversation people were called I I don't know how we got to the double taxation >> but I believe I think they're just taxing everything so >> yeah soa impeached Kashagua >> and I would like to know how that sit in your camp. >> Mhm. >> And especially because now they are part of the united opposition. >> Yeah. I mean it's the same thing me but I'm one of his biggest critics. You see in in politics you make you see when I say people I usually like to say I have principle but when you hear people how they interpret that they think principle means I have good virtue. >> But principle is not that. principle is the the ability to think that your choice will lead you to a certain outcome. At that time, I believed that campaigning for William would lead us to change. In the same way, at that point, Sifuna believed that impeaching Gashagago was the political choice he needs to make at that point. Now, I'm not making excuses for him. However, I understand the political realities of it. It people don't care too much about it. Uh in fact, >> in fact, when you think about it, he has admitted himself. sorry that when he impeached Kashagago, he thought he was doing the right thing. >> Yeah. He says, >> but now he he circles back and finds that he needs to argue with the same Gashagago. Unfortunately, that's how politics sometimes will drive you to be because the choice you make today, right? Because I I usually tell even my friends within the political space. H we might wind up in government ourselves and we might wind up having to defend an unpopular policy that people don't like. You must be aware that political consequences come from political choices. So even he had to make that declaration and now say I was not supporting you then but now I am so that he can ease his political journey. It happens but as to how people take it. People don't really think too much of it. They think is doing his thing as we are doing our thing. So >> so we can agree that politics is really never always about the people. It's about the politicians because if you could impeach someone today, >> if you could support someone uh in 2022 and then come again and say, you know, this person is not fit. So, it's either they lied to you and you bought their promises or you were just doing it for yourself. Yeah, >> I I agree. That's something that could is very plausible and I like that you asked that. But remember, if you're a politician who has any virtue of principle, you have to understand you operate with within the realms of democracy. Democracy is the existence of choice. >> I'll give you an example with myself. H that time when I was supporting William R, I was in a different party. I was not even in UDA. >> But because we were trying to compete with UD on this local seats, we only agreed at the presidential level. people there told us you understand. So remember I've told you the guiding principle is always the people. So if you're a politician and you're listening to the people, there are choices that the people will ask you. Let me give you another example. The member of parliament for Gizongi in 2023 was one of the first members of parliament to say no to the finance bill because he asked her people vote no. Yes, forgetting the choice they asked her to make then because she went again and joined in between her saying no in 2023 up to 2026 today she has lost touch with the people. So the same people who asked her to do something now that because they're not being listened to they are trying to kick her out of for example for he was listening to a caucus of democracy from the party >> because I am a leader I am I am a leader I am a leader of not of goats of people right so they telling me William. >> So way if you have any ambitions you better look towards that. >> Now within the course of leadership there are some principles you will take that might not agree with the people you but you are you should be ready to take those consequences. That's why because democracy works like >> democracy. Yeah. >> Okay. And I think um that is actually evident >> with Kawira Mongaza. >> Yes. >> In Meu because he has been she has been impeached a couple of times but you can see the masses because I think it is I think not withstanding that the accusations against impeachment were gross misconduct. >> [laughter] >> So now you always have to understand >> the electorate guides what you see in the politician and sometimes the electorate makes these politicians change. So for example,000 in fact there's a leader I won't mention the names useless. Yeah. So, >> oh, the quality of a voter will also influence the quality of a leader >> and that's where I want Kenya to go. >> Okay. >> All right. So, let me ask you a few some quickfire questions right here. Oh, >> this these are the worst. These are the worst. These are the parts I don't like necessarily. Yeah. One word for R. >> One time. Hey, >> that was easy. I should have thought of another. [laughter] >> Who is the biggest political opportunist right now in Kenya? >> Political opportunity. That's a good question. That's a That's a damn good question. Um, wow. Political opportunist. Oh my god, that's such a good question. I don't know where to go with that, but I would say >> if I had to pick I had to pick if I had to pick a name, >> I would say. >> Yeah. >> Thought about it. I think it would be Aubro. Yeah, >> for sure. Cuz he's just out of nowhere and literally the party leader. >> The opportunity favored him. Now he's negotiating for things. I mean, he's opportunistic. >> Yeah. Yes. >> So, who has the bigger national potential? >> That's another good question. Oh my god. Um, I am not tempted to say Cifuna because of where he is at now, though he has a quite a good national profile. But if I were to check longevity and consistency over time and conversations before this whole, I'd say Babu. >> Yes. >> Okay. Babuin is genuine or a political strategy >> I never know honestly I never know >> from what you see >> I'll say strate strategy political strategy and that can be genuine as well >> who is more afraid of Sona among all the opposition the political all the all the presidential aspirants >> I think it's William R >> should at retire or remain politically relevant >> should have retired 30 years ago. >> Mhm. >> 30 years ago. By the way, he was 50 something. >> 30 years ago. >> So, okay, I might be but if I'm wrong. >> Yeah. >> Which politician should never be trusted? >> William. [laughter] William. >> Is tribal politics dead or just wearing a new outfit? Tribal politics is hard to get rid of. So to answer your question directly, it's wearing a new new hat or a new outfit, whatever you may call it. I think it's still there. >> One politician you'd never um hire as a policy advisor. >> Wow. One politician never hires a policy advisor, Moses Kura. >> Okay. >> Or Elijah. >> Yeah. Okay. Government listen is government listening to Gen Z. Yes or no? >> No. >> Uhhuh. Ah yeah. Name one politician you think Kenyans are overestimating. >> Overestimating. >> Yes. >> William R. William R. I don't know if you want an answer I can give you. But William is my answer. One politician you think Kenyans are underestimating? >> Underestimating. >> One people I think. >> Mhm. >> Because they've boxed him into a corner or a narrative, but that's a gross underestimation. Yeah. >> Who is most likely to betray their political alliance in 2027? [laughter] >> Watermelon. Watermelon. Who's that? [laughter] >> H I don't know. That one is a hard one. I don't know who is likely to betray. But new parties, new parties, >> new parties only >> newer parties, newer parties. I'd say newer parties, >> new parties that are not yet registered like [laughter] they need to look at themselves. All right, complete this sentence. Kenya will never change until >> Kenya will never change until >> the voters stop seeing politicians as a ticket to their next meal. >> That's true. >> Yeah. Until they until they do. >> Yeah. >> It's not going to change. >> All right, Wesley. Um, please h do you have something else that you'd want to add? Um well, I'd just tell the the young people of this country to again give some room for growth, give some room to listen to other people. I'd also say um this is the right time to be the change that you want. So, >> I cannot believe that's the exact thing I wanted to say. I actually wanted to say thank you for coming and let's keep on being the change that we want to see. >> Absolutely. >> All right, guys. That was Wesley right here on the show. He is a policy strategist, a policy maker, a political strategist and a lawyer as well. Thank you for watching. My name is Miss Betty Keni.