Second Mansion: Fighting Temptation, Shame, and Discouragement | Devil in the Castle Chapter 2

When we're talking about what the enemy does in this stage, you have to make serious effort to engage in these practices so that when the temptation arises, it's nothing to you and and it's just gone. I mean, it's over in an instant. >> And what's interesting, by the time you master those tactics, you're you're through that match. >> The greatest trick [music] the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. I didn't know this was a fight. [music] That's why you're losing. Today we are beginning either to domesticate the devil or else to deny him. He is most [music] powerful when he is denied. >> Welcome to the devil's in the details. The devil may be in the details, but God is on the throne. >> Amen. He is on the throne. The show isn't about the devil. It's about God's overcoming the devil. >> Right. >> And what what's the setup for today? So today we're continuing the series on the devil in the castle, the book that you wrote um on Theresa Babala's Interior Castles. And this is episode two. We're going over the second mansion. In this case, it's very beneficial to listen, I think, from the start to the end. >> You can jump around if you want, but you're not going to have all the context that you need. You really should start at the beginning at the introduction if there was one. I don't recall. And then yeah, >> first, you know, first part, second part. But we have the series outlined on YouTube where it's in a playlist, right? >> It should be. Yes. And if not.com. [clears throat] >> Yeah. Um so going into chapter two, uh what what is chapter 2? The first one we talked about kind of getting from the courtyard going into the mansion away. >> Yeah. >> And now we're going to the second stage. >> Second room in the mansion. Okay. Yeah. So, and then Teresa's begins to outline what what how the devil will try to deal with the soul or derail the soul in this one. And you know the what's what's happening now is because the person begins to pray, they start to become spiritually awake and they start to see things they never saw before. the serious you know follower of Jesus and the stage is also [snorts] going to be um very focused on uh doing the examine prayer daily which also makes you you know it's sort of smelling salts for the soul if you will uh it's oh I'm awake I I'm thinking I'm you know I see and you see things you never saw before that we'll get to that in a minute so mental prayer the examine basic spiritual disciplines and the pro the problem in this in this phase is that because people become awake, they become they start to see, oh wow, they start to see what a wretch I am. You know, I don't remember um uh the Amazing Grace story. I think it was a slave trader that wrote that story or that hymn Amazing Grace. if I'm messing it up. There is a story like this somewhere where you know you live a horrible life and you begin to follow Jesus and then you just but you don't know how bad it was and then you just are so horrified you spend your whole life in penance you know >> because you begin to see what really what you've done you know so that's really where we are because people are really beginning to pray >> and what happens is shame you know so the enemy starts to talk shame you um condemn M you uh speak universal negatives, you know, just these things that tend to really oppress you and make you feel like you can't make progress. And and also there's confusion, right? Because a lot of people think, well, wait, I'm following the Lord. Why is all this, you know, crashing down on me? Well, the issue is is it's not been absent from you. Now you just see uh remember I have a friend who was at a Grateful Dead concert and the Lord lifted the veil and he saw all the demonic around him at the concert and he fled to Jesus and and started to follow Jesus because of it. So it's kind of like that. You're just like wow. But and his reaction [clears throat] was the right reaction but but what can happen is instead and this is the demonic element is we turn in on ourselves. I don't know if you remember when you first started coming back and working on things if you had that kind of moment. >> Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I I definitely I have a tendency to beat myself up anyway. It's one of the things I talked to my therapist about. We're working through. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> And and I think, you know, you're melancholic. I'm a melancholic. That's >> kind of a primary >> um issue that we have to fight against because it's very easy to we we desire perfection in a lot of ways. And if we don't attain what we perceive to be perfection, it causes a problem. So it's a it's a I say all that to say it's a persistent issue. But I at least now I recognize due to the redemptive examine in the way that we live um that these things are gifts. Yeah. Right. So, I I heard a great talk. Um Ryan Beth, who who I consider a friend, uh was telling me about his new podcast, Heaven Meets Earth, and he had Gabe Castillo, and I forgot the priest's name on there. And Gabe is amazing. He's >> a great guy. >> Divine Divine Intimacy Radio. And he had a great explanation. He said, "Anytime essentially God corrects us, it's like a coach. A good coach will correct you, but also encourage you." >> You know what I mean? And I loved that imagery cuz that is what it is. We have a goal here, >> but it's okay. Here's how you do it. >> I look back and I say, "Oo, I failed there." It doesn't drive me to doubt, despair, and narcissism. It's a it's a pain, an initial pain most of the time where I'm like, "Ah, okay, I need to do better." But also a, "Okay, thank you, Lord. This is thank you for revealing this to me." >> You know, it's interesting. What book taught you that the most in your life? that perspective about God's work in the middle of it. >> Oh, uh, uniformity with God's word. >> I knew you would say that. So, the it's one of the reasons why one, I wanted to bring that back into print and add more to it so that it wouldn't disappear in a pamphlet on the shelf, >> but also why we in our community in Apostle, we read through searching for and maintaining peace. We read through abandonment to divine providence by Jean Pierre de Kosad because they're all in the same theme. >> Uh, Lorias is my favorite because he's just so direct and hard-hitting. >> But it's it's one of the reasons I teach that. So, if you're trying to teach Carmelite spirituality and help people to grow spiritually, you've got to teach them the sovereignty of God, which is what what shines through in those texts because that you just said the reason I'm okay with the battle is I know what God is doing. >> Right. Right. And and not only are you okay, but you're now emotionally strong and spiritually strong enough to where you can go not just acknowledging God's at work, but you're like, "Yeah, I want that." >> Right. >> And those those are two different things and that takes some time. >> Right. >> So just as a side note, those are really important things. So if you want to read finding the book is called Finding Peace in the Storm is the one with Luri's work. >> But the strength you found was recognizing God's work and he's and his healing. And really when we're helping people through this or going through this, we need to that's what we need to focus on. >> God is at work. He's teaching me. I see more because he wants me to see more, but I'm not to be discouraged by it. It's just it's just real. It's just he's showing me the truth, the true state of my soul. So maybe I got to go to confession more. I have to, you know, repent more. I have to do more penance. Whatever you do. But what what what you need to avoid is the enemy is discouragement um regarding your ability to follow God and to live out the faith. You got to avoid worries or fears uh about the things of the world which because the enemy is trying to draw you back. These are key tactics by the way of the enemy. >> Yeah. These distractions. >> Yeah. And then attempts to weaken your efforts at spiritual disciplines. So what can happen is and this this is a recurring theme but he just tries to do it in different ways is when you're experiencing these things the enemy will say well you should probably stop doing this and everything will stop you know >> right >> and the enemy does this regularly you hear this in demonic and possession stories when you get to root the root issues is the enemy says I'll do I'll I'll I'll relieve you of this he's the one who caused it Right. >> I'll relieve you of this if you give yourself to me in some way. >> Yeah. >> Well, for a while he will. >> Well, and even even stopping praying. >> I mean, think about what's happening. There's a proposition and and the odds are against you because as you said, this is really important for people to understand. >> I mentioned I I had a message from somebody recently who said, you know, I just took up this spiritual practice and I don't remember exactly what it was, rosary or auxiliary norm or something like that. And they said, well, now my house is in utter chaos. way worse than it's it's been. Why? Okay. The odds are against you because the enemy is causing that. >> Mhm. >> And then now the enemy is coming to you with a trade deal that says it's it's you know what it is. It's the mobsters back in the day who would go into restaurants and say we're going to offer you protection money. >> And by the way, where's what kind of what are the only kind of restaurants they would attack? The ones who were doing well. >> Right. >> Right. That's what it is. I'm here. You you need to pay us for protection. You need to stop what you're doing. So we stop attacking you. Pay us. Agree with me so I stop attacking you. That's a bad deal. >> That's a very and and once you capitulate, you're in and you can't get out. >> That's it. >> Now we we can always get out. And you said the odds are against you. I would say that's how we feel. >> It's not the reality. >> Yeah. And I and I'm specifically trying to say in that agreement, [clears throat] >> the odds are stacked against you because >> it's being caused by the enemy to begin with, right? Yeah, exactly. So, how do you get through this phase? One, it's knowing all that we're talking about. Uh, two, it's staying strong in your spiritual disciplines. Rule number five, if you go look back on our discernment of spirit series, you'll see you never make a change in the spiritual commitments you made while you were in consolation. >> Desolation, >> you never Oh, yeah. While you're in If you're in desolation. So, rule number five is big. So, don't make a change. apply more attention to your interior life, which is rule number six. You have to develop a strong disposition of will against quitting or falling backwards. You know, and that I think our culture teaches us, well, I know our culture teaches us do what if you feel like doing. This morning, I I did not feel like working out. You know, I felt a little bit funky. Um, even though my HRV was high, it said my body is ready to work out pretty hard. So, I went out and played a little pickle ball. And then I had this interior dialogue. And this is kind of what this is what this is about. Though I'm not here, it's this is the ongoing battle. I don't feel like working out. And then telling myself, well, this is when you should work out, >> right? >> Oh, I don't feel like working out. So, what's your answer? Oh, good. Then this is when you should. Yeah. >> And just developing that kind of warrior mentality in the interior life. Oh, I'm having temptation. Oh, well, this is when you should fight all the harder that you shouldn't give in. Why? Why? Because you know that if you fight, your will is going to get so much stronger. It's going to be easier to overcome next time. >> So, let's talk about in this context even physiology. I have a new book coming out called God of Endurance, maybe out by the time this airs on with Case Krauss, who's a who's got degrees in sports science and phys and nutrition and all that, but the the when I was studying the psychology or the physiology or the the you know the interior dynamics of temptation, they didn't call it temptation, they call it cravings, >> we call it temptation. fascinated to discover this one insight and that is the first wave of attack of the temptation or the craving is always the strongest but it doesn't last very long >> with anyone right >> because and they can even measure this in your body >> the anticipation and by the way this is interesting too the anticipation of committing the sin whether it's a sexual sin or not not doing what you know you should do like working out or not praying That initial temptation, that first wave, which is not doing it yet, is actually stronger. >> That's the dopamine insert. That's where that comes in. >> It's higher there. >> Yeah. >> It's actually stronger than when you're doing it, >> right? >> If it's a dopamine inducing activity like sexual stuff. >> Yeah. >> So, it's but but it as [clears throat] it applies here is just knowing. So, listen to please listen to this wisdom. When you first feel like not doing it, stay in because that's going to be short-lived. There'll be another wave fight. You're saying >> stay in the fight against the temptation because there's going to be that wave will be short and there'll be another one. It'll be less it'll be less difficult unless you don't fight right now. Your will is weak and now you commit the sin. You know, for me, where I'm at now, living with life-threatening illness, I I go to confession when I don't do what I need to do to take care of my body because I'm the consequences for me are higher than the average person. But anyone at my age, 59, you should be working out. You're going to subject yourself to sarcopenia. You're going to lose 10 to 20% of your muscle mass every year. In the last years of your life, the the what do they call it? The uh Peteratia calls it the marginal decade, I think. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's it. >> It's [clears throat] that it's that last period where you never know you're in it until you know something goes wrong and then you start to decline at a dramatic level. Well, if I want to live in a way that honors the Lord during the marginal decade, I have to be as healthy as I can be as I enter in because I can't control all of that. And what I want to do is serve the Lord until I drop dead. I want to help you be the man God's called you to be and serve the ABA Institute and Apostle VA community. So, so, so thinking about all of those things also helped me to go, no, you're going to go work out. So, the first wave when it comes, and this is what the enemy is going to when you're early on, you're susceptible, way more susceptible in the second first mansion, second mansion. But the good news is you're closer to Jesus than you were in the first mansion. And when you were in the first mansion, you're closer to Jesus than you were when you're outside in the court. So, you're moving away. So, the enemy will rage a little bit, but it's important to know it's not going to get worse than it is now. I think it's fairly safe to say. >> I think there's two things. One, I made we were kind of discussing this before we got on the show and I said I I in my estimation, I think it's this stage where the battle is the most intense. If you have it feels that way, >> Yeah. where you have what if you had like a line graph, you see a peak. >> Yeah. >> Right. And why? because you're starting to make serious progress and the enemy knows that if you continue down this path, >> there's going to be issues for you. >> So that's where that peak, you know, that line kind of peaks. It becomes, it's not that it never goes away, but it becomes substantially easier as you go on. >> And the other thing I wanted to mention was in regard to, and I think this is just a really helpful tip for people in general in the spiritual life, mind, body, soul composite. If you One of the things I've been doing lately is standing up in morning prayer. Don't want to stand up. >> I'd [clears throat] rather sit down. >> Yeah. >> Very tired. Yeah. >> This is where the motto do the harder thing comes in. >> Mhm. >> Do the harder thing. Why? Denying myself. It's I always joke it's free mortification, right? Yeah, [laughter] like I'm choosing to engage in this mortification, this aestheus at a very low level cosmically >> or even, you know, physically, but it's a denial of something that I would prefer. And why is that important? So, when you do get into the marginal decade, you know, we have writings from the Saints that say when they're on their deathbed, the battle is intense. I would argue, and I'm not saying they did anything wrong, they did exactly what they were supposed to do. But if you want to put the odds in your favor at the end of time, why would you not take all the steps now to strengthen yourself? Not just spiritually, that's number one, but also physically because there's a built-in aesthetical component. >> But we are, as you said, we're mind, we're mind, body, spirit, >> and if you and the and exercise is ais. It's not about vanity, which it shouldn't be. >> It's just about good stewardship. Mhm. >> And so when you're doing what you're doing in prayer or doing what I'm talking about or whatever, this all benefits you going deeper into the castle. >> Yes. Yeah. That's that was my point. Yeah. >> So strong disposition to not go backwards. Flee from evil companionship. This is a big deal that she's talking about. We we've talked a little bit about disentanglement, but it's what you have to do to get through these mansions and go deeper is change life systems. We, you know, I always forget what I've said where, but if some people actually literally have to move >> from one location to another because if you're a drug person, people who take a list of drugs always know where they're where they can get them and sometimes and they develop friendships. You know, I even had a someone in my life who was he was had a cocaine issue and he was friends with a cocaine dealer and the Lord started to pull on him and he realized I can't be friends with this guy anymore. And it's like a duh to the rest of us. But it isn't, >> you know, when you're that close to all that darkness, it it it takes a good bit to figure these things out and then realize I got to do that. this person isn't going to be here, but there still may be that one or two relationships that are going to try to draw him back. And I don't know, did you have to uh as you were in your progress to the Lord ha and you're in this I think you're past this phase, were there people you had to cut out of your life completely or partially? >> No, completely. Yeah, there multiple people. I was I was a cop and any cops listening know how uh problematic the culture of policing is. Mil I have a lot of military friends. It's very similar. Uh there's a ton of crossover there. And when I started making progress I realized pretty quickly I had to not have the same friendships that I had when I was a cop. And thankfully I I also left policing which made it a little bit easier. But I mean it was I'm not saying I did the right thing but let's just say that many people thought that I died quite literally. They thought that I fell off the face of the earth. They couldn't I I vanished. They had no clue where I went. Um and so and and you know I it's I've had a few random tech it hasn't happened in probably a couple years but random text messages. Are you still alive? >> I just I have to make the decision to not respond. >> Yeah. >> And it's nothing against them, you know, and I do wish the best for them. But I know myself >> and I and I especially now where I'm at, I don't have capacity for anyone who is not full sprint >> Yeah. towards God. Don't you Yeah, my time is very limited. >> Well, that's the who you let into your in inner circle. You are helping folks who are >> not in You are helping folks that are broken and reaching out. Your inner circle is different. >> Correct. Yeah. Those are two very very different things. Yeah. No, I still give a lot of time to those who are struggling because of where God has placed me and what he has me doing. But yeah, in my inner circle, I'm very very careful with with who I have. >> Yeah. So, >> so other tactics, cry out to God. Yeah, >> you know, Lord, help me. I'm a sinner. And by the way, that that will never necessarily stop the need to do that. I was recently hit a plateau in my spiritual life. And I'm going, okay, you know, one, either you got to show me where I'm not, where I'm the block, I'm the problem. Then you got to help me get rid of it. But I don't know what to do at this stage. >> Mhm. So it's cry but so that just learning to cry out to him like that to the blessed mother and just say look I you know I can't overcome this sin or whatever or I can't overcome this imperfection depending on the stage you are in the interior life we're not dealing with imperfections at this stage we're dealing with habitual mortal sin habitual venial sin primarily that are the major blocks but mortal sin is fading uh venial sin is you know probably by now being attacked or whatever as long as you stay in the battle So cry out to God >> and you have to train yourself. So this reminds me of the saints who write on whenever you're tempted, flee, >> right? Run. The best fight is the one that you never get into. That's what we used to always say. The best fight is the one you never get into. Right. >> Yeah. >> Why? Well, it should be obvious. I should have to explain that. >> Well, they and they teach you that in good martial arts training. That's what they teach you. >> Yeah. And so the saints say that if you're tempted, flee. And I believe that if you do simple things and again this mind, body, soul composite um truth, I started saying three Hail Marys as soon as I woke up and if I can remember before I go to bed. What's fascinating is it became such a habit that I don't think about it anymore. I'm realizing I wake up and there's immediately a hail. >> Isn't that awesome? >> It's beautiful >> because you're not thinking about anything but the Lord or good things. Then what happens is so for instance recently I've I've realized it's pretty rare but it's happened enough that I've noticed it where some sort of memory or something will be suggested to me and I know it's a suggestion and and to some sort of temptation and my immediate response because I've trained myself I believe in the morning and the evenings Hail Marys three Hail Marys that when those pop up I'm immediately saying the Hail Mary or I mean I I was driving the car the other day this memory pops up and I I did. Lord have mercy on me. Lord have I'm beating my chest, right? Lord have mercy on me. Lord have mercy on me. >> And gone, >> right? But I don't think that I would have that initial fight response, that tool had I not been training myself with those three home areas in the morning, and the evening. So I say all that to say when we're talking about what the enemy does in this stage, you have to make serious effort to engage in these practices so that when the temptation arises, it's nothing to you and and it's just gone. I mean, it's over in an instant. >> And what's interesting, by the time you master those tactics, you're you're through that mansion. >> Yeah. >> Just the way that the Lord works. Oh, couple of resources for folks who are listening like, "Okay, I want to do that cuz the the last thing Teresa of Avala repeats over and over, never stop practicing mental prayer." And you've never stopped. That's that's something I'll never stop. So, that's one of the secrets to getting through all of this, the sacraments, that sort of thing. If you don't know how to practice mental prayer, we I have a book, Into the Deep. I have a whole film series that we did. We have uh spiritual warfare and discernment of spirits which will help you fight. We talked about >> recognize the voice of the enemy in the books of God. >> Two of the rules today and there's also a film series. Both of those books are in audio form. Both uh one of those books all of them we have video series on on spiritual.com. Jordan and I did one on spiritual warfare and discernment of spirits and then overcoming habitual sin is a big deal for people. Two resources there. One, a free course at apostoleva.org apo s o l i v i ae.org a free course there. The second is holy habits app which is an app that we created and in that app you can have someone you're accountable to for specific spiritual disciplines. So look folks without the digital without you know the Lord's given there there have been a million saints before before our time right without all this we have got a lot of lot of ways that you can be helped take advantage of him because the Lord is is kind and merciful and want you to grow >> I want to say one thing before we close out you have at the end in the spiritual encouragement the closer you are to Jesus the less less attached you are to the things of this world less attached you are the less power the enemy has to tempt you uh we we kind of touched on that, but it's just a really it's so desperately important. >> As you progress, I think a key indicator you're going to see, oh, I don't want to listen to the same music I listen to. >> I don't want to listen to the same podcast. This doesn't feel right. >> Right. >> That's a indicator that you're moving in the right direction. >> Great. And if you are finding yourself, we had a comment and not to call this person out, but uh you know, well, it's okay to watch the news because then I know what to pray for. And I'm like, so you need the news to tell you what to pray for. >> You can't you can't just pray for the world. >> And you don't have enough to pray about it just in your family. >> No, you have a extremely disordered attachment to the news for whatever reason. >> And you're not going to progress until you reject it and and you [clears throat] move on. So again, not picking on that person, but we cannot be attack. We don't we're very good at justifying the chains that hold us down. >> Yeah. >> And we have to really ask ourselves, do I need that podcast? Do I need that TV show? Do I need that movie? Those are easy ones, you know, and if you can start recognizing those things, you're going to make even more progress. So, >> amen. >> All right. Romans 16:20, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Amen.