Screaming Queens at the San Francisco Public Library

Thank you so much. So, now begins our panel discussion. We have about 40 minutes. So, I'm just going to get us right in there. Again, thank you so much everyone for being here. Um, yeah, it feels really exciting to get to rewatch this incredible documentary that uncovered this really powerful history written and co-directed by Susan Striker, who is here on our panel. Yeah. I clap for Susan Striker. Um, you know, it's funny, but literally in every possible way, she is why we are here today. So, we're just so grateful for you to be here. Um, we're also joined by Jonathan Cordderero on the end who is the MCouch or chair of the Aloney tribe. And we've got Toshio who is an incredible writer and host of San Francisco, really great podcast um that talks about just kind of the hellscape that we live in in San Francisco and is just really incredible. And then we've got Dee Arden to my left right here who is an incredible black trans dyke writer, poet, artist, and an incredible archavist. We're just so excited to have you here as well. and my name is A. But yeah, we're just gonna get right into it with some very exciting questions. Um, so, you know, we got to watch this documentary. We watch got to watch some excerpts of some interviews from folks who are formerly incarcerated at 111 Taylor. Um, actually Stevie is here. Give a little shout out. thanks for being part of this work. Um so yeah, this is one of the big kind of questions that the Turk and Taylor Initiative really um wrestles with. So it's an exciting place to start uh around the idea of challenging the concept of reclaiming indigenous land. So, you know, a big part of the exhibit is really tracing the history of the building, you know, back to Compton's Cafeteria ride, but even beyond to the um indigenous stewardship of the rematal. So, one of the theoretical contributions of Screaming Queens is the way Susan Striker mobilizes re-remembering the riots not only centered in trans liberation, but a moment in time where trans women, street youth, sex workers, immigrants, and people of color came together against carceral power. The exhibition builds on that legacy through a transecological framework. Understanding trans liiberation goes across oppressions and is ultimately grounded in indigenous sovereignty. Compton's site cannot be reclaimed because it is stolen indigenous land. So what could it look like to think of an abolitionist future for the site of the riot through trans liberation and indigenous sovereignty alike? And I'm going to direct that question first to Jonathan if you don't mind opening it up. And then um we're very lucky today to have five different microphones. So I encourage us to speak in whatever order we would like. Um yes and it is live and I'll turn over to you first. >> Um well thank you all for the invitation to be here. uh Shandra and I have been uh thought partners on this for quite a long time and um this this question about the role of indigenity and indigenous sovereignty in this liberation movement is I think it's very interesting one to think about. I don't necessarily know that I have any answers at this point. Um but I but I do want to just take a really brief minute. Um and can we give Chandra some applause because she finally finished her PhD and it's now Dr. Labour. Thank you very much. >> Yes. >> So congratulations. >> I know what that's like. Um it's really interesting being native and living in the world, you know. Do do you all uh you probably remember we do de boys had this uh concept way back in the day called double consciousness and it's this idea that when you live in society um you sort of have two identities and we we basically as native peoples have two two ident identities in regards to citizenship. We're we're citizens of the United States, believe it or not um but we're also citizens of our own tribal nations. So we have this idea of dual citizenry and um in the world that that I live in uh we are of course a colonized people and so our goal is to liberate ourselves from colonization and that means then uh pursuing sovereignty as our end goal as a citizen of the United States. uh we live in a system of rights and so our goal or my goal um as a citizen of the United States is to sort of realize justice for for native peoples. And so it's really fascinating to me. I tread this sort of line between the two and sometimes I get caught up in this rights talk and other times I get caught up in the sovereignty talk. And the really interesting question for me is, you know, how do those two play themselves out in real life? And and and in fact, right now, we're doing a lot of legal work. Um I have a position at UC Law. I have three legal interns this summer. We're fighting back against the state who's continuing to try to remove our sovereignty and our rights under existing law. And um and and so I I have a hard time sometimes articulating this relationship, but I think I've got it figured out now uh in short order just to give you a sense of what this might look like for us. And that is as native peoples, we have an ancestral responsibility to care for our homeland. That is a very uh by the way is a very uh concise definition of what matriarchy looks like. It's a society organized around care, >> right? A communal society organized around care. Um but we live in a we live in capitalist patriarchal society or a colonial society. And so, um, the only way that we can really fulfill our ancestral responsibilities to care for our homeland is to do so by means of the rights and protections that are provided for us by the state of California. Because we're not federally recognized, we don't have a relationship with the federal government. So that's why our rights are so important to us in California because they give us the opportunity to fulfill our responsibilities um which would then get us closer to realizing sovereignty in a society where we are essentially a domestic dependent nation within a nation. So the full realization of sovereignty is challenging because we live in the system of rights. Um and the system of rights dominates the system of sovereignty even for federally recognized tribes. So that's just a little insight into um to this idea of indigenous sovereignty. And um and so if if our our answer to the question is we're trying to we're trying to attain sovereignty, but we have to do that unfortunately within a system of rights. And so that's the relationship between the two and and really where we're headed. Um, liberation then for us is going to look different than it is for all of you because liberation for us looks more like self-determination independent of some other government imposing itself upon us and not the realization of our the full realization of our rights as human beings within a system within a capitalist patriarchal system of rights. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, I'll stop there. Thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. Um I'm curious, Susan, if you have any responses because I feel like this question of like rights versus sovereignty is very much the kind of uh landscape that we're in, especially like thinking about this abolitionist lens. Um and obviously, you know, the film is so much talks about the rights that are gained from the riot. and then we come today six years later and see you know also where those rights have gotten us. So I'm really curious about your response. >> Um I will just say that I am not personally enamored of a a system of rights. I mean a right is something that a government gives you and if it gives it to you it can take it away you know. It's just like I don't think that's really the right that is not a liberation framework you know. Um, and so, um, you know, the the the other thing that I heard people say in the film is like it would often be like, you know, we wanted our rights. We wanted to be treated like a human being, you know, and I I see those things as being kind of in in tension with one another. It's like, you know what I really saw those rioters doing back in 1966 is like that they were just affirming in this really powerful way. Uh this sort of uncompromising sense of like I am a living being, you know, and I can be on this earth. um and that they were pushing back against anything that was stopping them from doing they were pushing back against the thing that was like making them less than or you know was trying to grind them down into uh nothingness. Um so yeah, you know, I I think you know it's great when the law is on your side, but you know what the law giveth, the law taketh away, you know. Um so uh yeah not you know you you quoted you know de boys it's like I'll quote Frederick Douglas and say you know power conceds nothing without a demand >> you know and um you know it's like I saw that riot as like a really powerful you know demand for recognition of selfworth um you put in the question um that I use this concept of remembering and kind of what I meant when I wrote it that way was you know my my own early connection to the film project. Also I want to give a shout out to my filmmaking partner Victor Silverman who couldn't be here tonight but it's like the you know I did a lot of research on the Compton story but like that film is like equally his film. We made that film together. Um but uh you know what what brought me to the the film making was you know I had come out as trans and it's like I was feeling the world land on me in a newly heavy way for being publicly invisibly trans. I was pissed off about it. you know, I was politically active and there was just this sense of um you know, if I feel like this, it's like other people of course will have felt like this. And I knew the the Stonewall story and you know, I was just, you know, working at the GBT Historical Society as a volunteer and I was just looking. I mean, I was looking for something like this. you don't know if you're going to find it, but it's like surely, you know, it's like trans people were bit pissed off here in the 60s like they were somewhere else. And, you know, I found this little breadcrumb, you know, um, and I, you know, I put the story together. I did the research. I was able to, you know, reconstruct what happened there. But what what was drawing me was very much my own um my own identitarian concerns as a trans person. Uh, and the more I kind of sat with it, the more I learned the story. It's like, well, to focus on only that one part, the trans piece, it's like it I'm trying to remember something, but remembering it in that narrow way dismembers what was happening there. It's like it makes it just focus on one piece of the story. And so like to how do I then like take the story of a trans riot that I was able to document and rearticulate it, remember it with all of the other things that were going on there, you know, and to to bring in it's like well, you know, like if we just look at what's happening at that corner at the crossroads of Turk and Taylor, it's like there's so much that is happening there. It's like now you've got like, you know, all of the, you know, techdriven that's happening. You've still got housing displacement, unaffordability. You've got pro problems with um you know how people you know bring substances into their lives. You got problems of poverty and racism and you know it's like there was so much going on at that corner and to have Geog Group occupy that building to like make it such a you know a literal like site of of incarceration and violence directed at the people who live in that neighborhood. Um, you know, it just made me want to like take the story as deep as I could could take it, you know, because I one of my little slogans is always to say if we can solve the problems of Turk and Taylor, we can solve the problems of the world, you know, it's like in microcosm that, you know, if we can solve solve the problems there, it's like it's a model for what we can do elsewhere. And you know I if if we really take seriously the idea that gender the way we understand it now is a colonial imposition. It's a certain euroentric way of thinking about bodies and personalities and relationships of bodies to states and identities. It's like if we're really going to be serious about how do you decolonize that idea of gender and you're really being accountable to everything that is present on the land at that corner. It's like you really just have to take the story of trans liiberation down to, you know, what I think of as the, you know, original sins of this country, which is, you know, it's like it's built on stolen land by stolen labor. So, how do you connect trans liberation to what's actually present there as, you know, as as deep as you can hold a sense of accountability? I mean, like Jonathan was saying, I don't necessarily know what to do, but I feel like I know what the problems are and what I feel like I want to be accountable towards and I want to be part of some social practice that like where people are holding each other accountable, you know, and moving forward in a way that like is moving towards justice. So, um, you know, I just want to second what was said about the work that the TXT group is doing. It's like, you know, I'm really inspired by the work that y'all are doing and how you've taken up this like Compton story and connected it to the carceral story and connected it to the land that is there. So, you know, thank you for doing that. Um, I'm seeing some beautiful notetaking from Toshio and DD. I am curious to move into the next question. Um, just because I'm very curious about what the two of you would have to say about it. If you feel like um your other thoughts could be folded in >> perhaps >> you're also welcome to I I'm seeing those notes and I'm interested. So, I would also love to hear what you have to say. Yeah, I think it can be folded in so you can you can put it on the table and then I can What about you to >> agree? Great. >> Yeah, something about bringing in the carcerality and the microcosm of the world felt like a good segue into the second question which is a doozy and is I think three questions. So just sit with me. So this is a question around strategies to resist contemporary policing and colonial warfare. So in Screaming Queens, we see a direct relationship between military occupations abroad, heightened policing, and political resistance in the form of gender expression and collective organizing. Um, I also want to say just real quick, you know, I've watched this movie so many times and today one part like I felt like I saw it for the first time about talking about like trans workers being undocumented workers. I just thought that was very powerfully put and again just feels part of this whole question. Um so I just want to highlight that. Um so resistance then looks different in current political conditions. Today, as attacks on trans people intensify, policing continues to function through systemic racism, expanding as authoritarianism and fascism, becoming increasingly militarized and intertwined with digital surveillance, predictive technologies, mass incarceration, anti-immigration enforcement. Abroad, we see continued colonial warfare, including the genocide in Palestine, and heightened aggression against Iran and Lebanon. What can we learn from resistance movements in colonized territories? What can solidar solidarity across borders look like in practice? And what strategies can we draw from the Compton's Cafeteria riot? And what new forms of resistance are required to build collective safety and liberation under these conditions? Toio, do you want to go first? >> Sure. Yeah. Thank you for this dope question. Um I think that uh like I'm best suited to answering the last part of the question around the you know what like new forms of resistance might be useful to create collective safety and liberation in 2026. And my answer is uh just figure out what you're good at. >> Um what you like to do and what you think might be useful to other people in your community. Um and find people who have skills that complement yours. Uh and be in community with them. Uh not everybody has to be an expert at everything or can be an expert at everything. And uh for me, I like to do like media work, journalism, trying to figure out what is going on in the world and presenting it to other people in uh different mediums like uh podcast or short form video. Um but uh as things like you know censorship on all of the social media platforms proliferates and all the bots and like the the fake AI influencers are are there to try to scam us all. Um, I think, uh, if you can find a group of people to organize with offline, um, do that. And in San Francisco, fortunately, there are so many options for that. Uh, Gay Shame is the group that I organize with the most. And uh any good idea that I've ever had, I think probably is the result of a conversation that I had with somebody that I was uh organizing with there. And uh yeah, we just we need to keep moving people to platforms that aren't um uh you know dependent on the state or corporations. Uh for me, you know, I'm thinking about like, oh, I need to get people over to listening to like the independent podcasts that I do. Um or you know I need to do more writing for some of the places that uh offer me space to write about sort of what I want to write about like uh truth out or right now gay shame people are putting together uh an issue of the zen that gay queer insurrection puts out ultraviolet. Um, but yeah, bottom line, finding a group of people you can stand being around for an extended amount of time and hopefully even like become friends with. Uh, you know, we don't all have to work together, but um, again, we're SF, so there are a lot of options for that. >> Thank you. Yes. Also, thanks. Yes. Also, thank you for shouting out so many specific resources. I hope people are writing them down. >> Um, DD become abstract. But, um, I will say that the podcast, if if you missed it, is San Francisco. Um, you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. Um, and then yeah, enter into the realm of the abstract. um but also very concrete and material. Um, I would say that it's necessary that the abolition be total. Um, and that it can't just be the site. Um, and that it's a particular form of colonial imaginary that envisions these very concrete distinct parcels and lots of land. And it's necessary to think um and study I think through that kind of reverse chronology that Chandra was talking about through both you know like these US and the also the Spanish colonial archives as well as indigenous archives of the space and you know to study with and help to return the land in multiple ways. um and that it's necessary to think about you know this kind of carcerality of settle settler colonialism and its you know impetus um to capture and police everything from the land to the air to the sea and then all the organisms in between and I think related to that it's necessary to recognize that the US is a settler colony and that the settler colonial project both enforces and transgresses borders constantly and so one example of that is that you know we might think about the role of the French engineer years in the development of the US Army Corps of Engineers who were critical in seizing the lands and wreaking havoc on the ecology and its original stewards. And then I think to get a little bit, you know, more contemporary, one of the ways that we could start moving in that direction is perhaps we could start with getting these, you know, rent cops out of the bathrooms here at the San Francisco Public Library because I myself have had multiple encounters with them, you know, where they've threatened to call the cops on me or, you know, there's of course that sort of perverse inclusion where they're like, "Well, there's the genderneutral bathroom downstairs, so you can go use that one." Um so I think it's you know refusing everything from from those various different levels of um the encroachment and the creep of the state um constantly. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> For real. >> Thank you always. Um, I'm curious, Susan or Jonathan, if you'd like to speak also about this this question of strategies to resist contemporary policing. >> Yeah. C >> can I can I pass because I feel like I've had a lot of air air time. So, >> yes, I appreciate keeping on time. Um well let's move us into our next question which is a question of assimilation which is again I feel like a topic that I'm hearing a lot coming up especially in terms of like refusal um and I think again this question of like sovereignty versus rights. So just lead into the question in screaming queens we see communities who were marginalized within the more respectable gay and lesbian homophile movement during the 1960s in a tenderloin. The so-called screaming queens are policed and criminalized for their expression of gender and their labor as sex workers. Today while trans people continue to face discrimination and erasure trans history is increasingly appropriated by liberal interests. And Compton's story is no exception in this instrumentalization. As we imagine a liberated future for the site, how can we remain accountable to radical trans and queer politics and resist the pressures of assimilation, capitalist co-optation, and pinkwashing? Susan, would you like to take this one? Sorry, it's just you got so much great stuff to say. Um well, you know, it it's kind of like what I was saying in response to the first question about remeing, you know, the complexity of the struggles and the issues that go on at that intersection. And I'll just say I don't think it's enough to celebrate trans identity, you know, like it's such a small is an important part. I don't want to disavow it. I was actually really touched. I hadn't seen Shandra the the video work that you did with you know Leila Weaver. It's like and you know people saying you know kind of like it mattered something to me to like see that plaque there you know like I was I was touched by that. So it's like I don't you know I I celebrate that act of resistance there but I just want to insist on it's not enough to like remember you know to remember that it was trans women and street queens and hustlers who rioted. I want to remember what they were rioting against, you know, that they were rioting against a, you know, a a a certain carcerality of the mind in society. Like they were rioting against things that were containing them in a particular place um so that they could be abused and exploited and manipulated and thrown away, you know. And so it's like there were many many kinds of people who were resisting that kind of um you know that that that resisting the conditions that were forced upon them. So like I said yes you know trans liberation but only you know it's like the the cliche it's like you know none of us are free until all of us are free and really have to to pay attention to that. Um the other just the other thing I I always notice this when I watch the film and I have seen this film so many times I can lip sync it in my sleep but um um you know I'm always struck by the trans women who were talking about it's kind of like you know I just wanted to like get my hormones have a job you know get married have a life you know some kind of quote unquote normal life you know not in the tenderloin And it kind of gets back to that question about rights for me. It's like I think people what we're taught is like we imagine our freedom as having our rights. You know that's something that's given to us and we don't have a lot of experience of thinking outside that framework. Um you know how do you imagine your freedom if it's not something that a state gives you? you know, um, and the same way it's like how how do you have a good quality of life when what what you see in the world is look, I just want to like get up, do my thing, you know, eat some food, be with people that I love, you know, feel like I have meaning in my life. It's like that's couched in a language of normaly, you know. Um, and it's like what would it be like to live in a society where like being normal, you know, wasn't like the goal that you aspired to so that you could have, you know, a basic quality of life. Um, you know, it's like I I, you know, we wanted to include those perspectives in the film precisely because I think they stage a really important question about um uh two things. one like how do you how could you like imagine more freedom or you know a life that's not predicated on a sense of fitting in somehow uh and on the other hand like pointing out that it's like you know I think most people do not necessarily want to think it's like yeah like I need to be like the righteous warrior you know 247 365 and I'm living this like you know out there radical life it's like you just kind of like want to like do your thing you know and like that's got to be okay too. Yeah. So, anyway, I I guess that's all I've got to say. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um Yes. I'm curious also, Toshio, if you would like to share your answer to this question, especially as someone who Yeah. talks a lot about how specifically gay politics are looking like today in San Francisco. >> Yeah. Um I mean I have another oblique answer that I wrote down. Um so I have been thinking about the old anarchist adage no gods no masters. And the way I interpret that is uh you know along the lines of what Susan was saying um you know not everybody needs to be a leader not everybody should be a leader uh for their entire lives. I think it's so important to like, you know, have leaders who are mentoring people to pick up for when they're gone because inevitably there will come a time when they're no longer here. Um, and uh, you know, it also is uh, true that I am skeptical of politicians and also the idea of holding out for a hero. I think that uh you know we we can all um have a part in doing things that bring about uh a world that is better than the one that we're living in right now. And it doesn't uh require Yeah. finding um some you know uh solo celebrity type uh you know figure to to make that happen. Um we all can play a part. >> Thank you for that answer. Um DD again I'm watching you write notes. I'm so sorry to call on you when you're doing it but I'm curious also your thoughts on this question. >> Um yes I mean I have the notes so that I can keep it brief. Um so I would say that it's necessary um to think through alternative modes of social reproduction um and organizing in excess of bureaucratic union and electoral structures because I think it's often the ability to sort of force and coers people into assimilation is the fact that the state has a monopoly of the resources um that we depend upon for our social reproduction and that's like food, housing, transit and the like. Um, so I think that it's it's necessary to challenge the state and I guess perhaps that's giving away the fact that I am an anarchist along with being a black trans dyke. Um, and I think being a black trans dyke has a lot to do with being an anarchist. Um, and I think, you know, it it's it's um to say that it's necessary to sort of dig the state's grave for it. Um, and um, sort of briefly to say that mutual aid is necessary, but it's insufficient because it's sort of like this constancy of, you know, always requiring us to have to do more for less. Um, and so even if we are as thrifty as we possibly can be, again with this particular sort of monopoly, I mean, you can't even really, if you weren't able to use public transit, if you weren't able to use um, you know, gas, if you weren't able to get, you know, have the kind of roads maintained in a particular sort of way, you would have to walk everywhere if you were able. Um, and I think, you know, it's that granular level of, um, sort of state presence that I think is often taken for granted that, you know, like we're kind of granted the right of way either by a private entity that's been given that doled out to it by the state or by the state itself. Um so yeah I mean thinking very constantly about um that sort of imposition even when it feels like it's not present to say that there is really like the the distinction between private and public is very much the sort of myth of state craft um because you know you think about eminent domain and they can kind of seize upon that at any particular given time. So yeah uh keep an eye out. >> Yes. Um I we are coming to the end of our time and so I was hoping I was thinking we could just like go down the line kind of combining the last two questions. So I'm just going to read them and I'll start with you Jonathan. We'll go down the line and we'll wrap up kind of at 7:15. Um I'm going to talk fast but also clearly. Okay. So in Screaming Queens, Amanda St. James talks about the isolating nature of imprisonment, particularly for incarcerated trans people. This stands in contrast to the homely feeling at Compton's expressed by so many in the film. It is particularly because Gene Compton's cafeteria was a hangout spot and precisely because trans folks in the Tenderloin were starting to organize together that this riot broke out. An unspoken coalition built through a shared understanding that this space ought to be protected. What strategies do you have in remaining connected to organizing and gathering efforts? And what collective efforts do you see in San Francisco and the Bay Area that energize and inspire your vision of collective liberation? And while we're talking about visions of collective liberation, what is your vision for the future of the building? I'm going to start with you, Jonathan. >> Sure. So, I've been actually asked this question prior so I could prepare. Um, I'm just going to ask answer the the last question from the perspective of the tribe since I'm the chair of the tribe. Um, and it's actually really simple. Um, in this conception that we have of what trans liiberation looks like in that as Susan said, it's it's liberation for everybody, right? Um, that is our goal, too. So we we want to walk handinhand with partners toward our mutual liberation always. And so then it makes very much sense that if this uh building which is a form of property which is very capitalistic um were to be given back to the original people from whence it was stolen from whom it was stolen. um our then response would be to say thank you and we would give it back to you because this is such an important part of your history and your identity in this city. So that is our promise should this amazing thing actually come about. >> Yes. Yes. I love land back to land back. That's very beautiful. Um, Susan, do you have any Yeah. Would you have answers to strategies in remaining connected, collective e efforts you like, and uh your vision for the future of the building in one minute? >> Um, I I will just say I don't have a specific vision for the building myself. Um, you know, um, in kind of keeping with what Jonathan was just saying, like I feel like for me as a, you know, white person of settler ancestry who just happens to be tr living here, it's like I feel like I want to like advance a trans, you know, liberation struggle while holding myself accountable to like the long legacies of colonialism and racism and land theft that live here. And it's like and we don't know what that future looks like, you know, like how do you get there? It's like you I think there just has to be like this real sense of humility and um awareness of like it's like like oh like we have to pay attention to this and it's like maybe the answer you get is not the answer that you want, but it's like that whatever like sense of like justice comes out of it. It has to be like with having everything on the on the table, you know? Um and so um yeah, you know, it's like my sense of what does the liberation struggle look like? I think it's actually in the kind of social bonds that we make as we collectively struggle towards a a shared vision of a future that is just and equitable and sustainable and honors the earth and all of the living creatures on it. So we have to figure that out in practice because it's not what exists now. you know, we have to experiment with each other. Um, and yeah, move forward in, you know, good faith with an open heart and a sense of accountability. So, you know, very vague, but it's just like, you know, uh, the the details will work themselves out in practice. >> Yes, very precise, actually. Thank you. Uh, Toshio is your answer. >> Yeah, I definitely feel that. Um, now that I am 43, I have been thinking a lot about how nothing is permanent and how I don't want to like dictate what happens to spaces, you know, 100 years from now, like nothing is nothing is permanent. Um but uh that said uh I think uh this being an exception, the library of course is uh awesome. Um but there are fewer and fewer third spaces uh that are freely available to to groups. something that gay shame comes into uh conflict with all the time. Having to uh since we don't like we're not like a nonprofit with a budget um finding cheap spaces to hold events can be trying sometimes. So yeah, would love love to have more like uh big spaces like this to to have events. >> Right on. D, would you like to bring us home? >> Surely. Um yeah, I would say that um what keeps me remaining connected in organizing and gathering efforts is um really trying to practice a black and queer and trans anarchist struggle. Um, and that does involve gay shame. And then that also involves um a study group that I help facilitate called Shattered Glass. Um, and I think it's really sort of this um emphasis on not just changing the world but also changing our lives. And I think often there can be more emphasis on the latter because it seems maybe more feasible to kind of sort of change the way that we do things individually or even collectively on a local or small scale dayto-day. But I think to leave the sort of um broader kind of antilack capitalist imperialist juggernaut, you like war machine constantly turning is just in unacceptable for me. Um, and so yeah, it's it's it's places like Bound Together and Long Haul and Moments Co-op and Comics, um, Sour Cherry, Spectator Books, um, Tamarak, Freedom Archives, Marcus Books, um, Bay Area Lesbian Archives, all those sort of places that are very important to me. And then, um, coming up, um, in October 3rd, there's the Bay Area Anarchist Book Fair in Oakland. And then there's also Sacramento Anarchist Book Fair October 17th in Sacramento, of course. Um, and you know, so these are more and more places that folks can kind of look for people who are trying to do things similarly. Um, and then as far as the future of the building, kind of like I was saying before, it's like, you know, to think of this as a settler colony and to think about um, sort of abolition in a total sense. It's kind of trying to think beyond just the site itself. But um one way of doing that is maybe to think of it as like the first or one of many liberated zones and returning the land to its original stewards and like working towards a sort of abolition that is is truly um decolonial. Yeah. >> Yes. Thank you so much and thank you to all of our panelists for this incredible conversation and thank all of you for coming out. Uh we are 5 minutes over time so I'm going to say good night. We have more Z's. I'm going to bring out some more. Thank you so much again. And Liberty Compton's. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, O.