Scottish Government Debate: Scotland's Energy Opportunity - 10 September 2026

Thank you, First Minister. That ends first minister's questions for party leaders. The next item of business is a debate on motion 114 in the name of Steven Geins on Scotland's energy opportunity. Members wishing to speak should press the request to speak buttons. Now, it's one of those A little bar. Could members who are leaving please leave quietly. Too much noise in the chamber. I call Steven Gthins to speak to and move motion 114 13 minutes please. Minister thank you presiding officer. It's a pleasure to speak about Scotland's energy wealth and the opportunities it brings for Scotland and I'd like to move the motion in my name. Um, deputy exciting officer, it's been a busy summer uh for me getting to grip with my portfolios and over the past few weeks I've engaged with colleagues across the energy sector in every part of Scotland and I've been grateful to everyone who's taken the time to talk to me about the associated challenges and opportunities. So, let me first of all put on on the record my thanks to those businesses and other stakeholders. The message that I have received has been clear that the energy sector as a whole is delivering the transformation that we need and that Scotland is well placed with decades of experience, skills, expertise, infrastructure and the other necessary ingredients that place us at a competitive advantage. Now, there's no question that there are significant challenges and no doubt we will discuss some of those today. However, it has been good to hear about the transformation that is being delivered now and hearing the message that Scotland is a good place to invest and a good place to do business. Can I also in the spirit of collegiality take the opportunity to thank colleagues from across this chamber who've engaged with me. Debate and disagreement are at the heart of a good democracy and better decision-making, but so is consensus and the sharing of ideas. and I'm grateful for colleagues who have done that with me. I'd also like to put on the record um my thanks to the UK government colleagues for engaging with me including Minister Shanks. I will always seek to engage in a constructive way where possible and people working in the sector would have expect no less from us. And in that spirit and I'll come on to other amendments. I will be ex accepting the Labor amendment in Daniel Johnson's name today, albeit with the conditions, and I know you'll be aware of this and you'd expect me to say this, that we still have significant concerns around UK government policies on issues such as grid, transmission charging, EU alignment, energy bills for instance, and of course, we're still awaiting the SS. Presiding officer, um, in terms of the North Sea, North Sea oil and gas has and continues to play to play a vital role in our energy system and the security mix. It's delivered jobs in the Northeast and allowed us to develop decadesl long experience and expertise in energy production, including those developed in an offshore environment. But the North Sea is a maturing basin and the challenge before us is managing the energy transition in a way that's fair and responsible. Ensuring that skills, talent, and expertise built up over those decades are carried forward. There's an opportunity that's securing jobs, investment, and economic growth for communities the length and breadth of Scotland, supporting energy security not just in Scotland but across Europe where is a increasing concern amongst our European partners. But crucially, our renewables potential is globally recognized and we are seeing large-scale investment which matches the scale of this potential. And the transition is not something that's taking place in the future. It is taking place right now. Now we already host some of the world's largest operational floating offshore wind farms. Highwind Scotland and Concardan and Green Volt is expected to become the world's largest floating wind farm when completed. We have worldclass facilities already supporting the global scale buildout of offshore wind. Kishor Port as one of the largest um of one of Europe's largest dry docks and is being further expanded to support the next generation of offshore energy. Montro's port is also set to become one of the largest offshore wind operations and maintenance hubs. The port of Leath is playing a key role in the construction of 1.1 gawatt incape offshore wind farm and that can be seen as we all know across Edinburgh and F. And over the summer, I visited Sumitomo Electric's 350 million pound high voltage subc cable manufacturing facility at It is the first of its kind in the UK, strengthening domestic supply chains for offshore wind, whilst creating hundreds of well-paid jobs. These are not isolated examples and demonstrate that the energy transition is already creating industrial opportunities in Scotland. In terms of skills and jobs, the Scottish government is proactively supporting our North Sea workers to carry their expertise and experience into renewable energy, including through the oil and gas transition training fund. Our offshore wind skills program is also backed up by 3.85 million of investment in targeted education, training, and workforce transition interventions. So far, six projects have been approved with a combined value of 2.5 million pounds. And on that investment, I'll I'll I'll be glad to give give way. >> Liam K, >> I'm very grateful. I'm listening intently to what the minister is saying, but the uh a recent RGU report, he will be aware, says that for the economic value of every lost offshore energy, oil and gas job needs to be replaced by around two jobs elsewhere in the economy. Is he confident he can actually deliver that proper transformation? >> Minister, >> I'd like to thank Mr. care for for for raising that and I appreciate it and I've I've I've I've been up to Aberdine several times since I was appointed by the first minister and the first minister was there just yesterday. Yes, we're seeing this transition happening now and what's been really impressive and I'll come on to to to the transition a little bit further in a moment on some of these as with some of these facts and figures around this is seeing the way the energy sector is working together. the skills and experience which are delivering in terms of the offshore renewable sector that places us at competitive advantage because of the skills and expertise amongst the people in his own constituency and I know in my own constituency because this energy transition offers a scale of opportunity like no other and it is delivering tens of thousands of jobs and don't just take my word for it and Mr. will be glad not just take my word for it, but a 2026 this year CBI report indicates that the net zero economy in Scotland already supports over 105,000 jobs and generates 10.2 billion in economic value with activities spanning energy, manufacturing, engineering, and professional services and around 3,000 businesses that are already part of net the net zero economy. and economy members will be glad to hear that we are committed to it. But if we are to make the most of this opportunity, we must also all learn the lessons of the past. Scotland generated enormous wealth from oil and gas for the UK Treasury, but we didn't see the long-term benefit. That was a structural failing over the past half century of energy policy. The UK was one of the only states on earth to discover oil and gas but not establish some kind of futures fund to ensure future generations benefit from what is a finite resource. And I know that's something that others will acknowledge. And on that point in those failures, I'll be glad to take the member on this one. >> Angela Ross taking the intervention. Um why are so many companies involved such as Orstead um involved in wind farmed assets? Why are they so um they're all foreignowned and most of the pro profits are actually repatriated abroad rather than held in Scotland. Is that acceptable? >> Minister, >> Miss Ross was clearly no reform aren't into foreigners very much, but I'm very much in favor of an international and outward-looking parliament, an international and outward-looking economy. I've just expressed that CBI report and I would encourage Miss Ross to go back and read it with the jobs and the economic value that that is delivering to Scotland not in the future but right now. Now I know this is a party that want us to be isolated from the rest of the world whose policies are costing 250 million pounds a day in lost tax revenues because they want us to be isolated from the rest of the EU. But that's not the policy of this government who will work in an international vein as we secure European energy security delivering jobs at home. Now on that policy I am taking in terms of the futures fund must be developed and we have to learn from that and can I just for a moment and I'll I'll I'll come to the member in a moment. Can I also acknowledge the green motion today about the energy transition that must drive community wealth? And I also look forward to supporting that amendment today as well. And while I'm on it, and I'll come to Miss Lenn in just in a moment, I want to also acknowledge the Liberal Democrat motion today on community benefits and see how we can make the most of that. And again, in the spirit of collegiality, we'll accept it, but I'm content to work with Liberal Democrats and colleagues um on how we can deliver that and make the most of it. And I'll take Mr. Lennon then I must make some progress. >> Monica Lennon. >> I'm grateful to the minister and welcome him to his post and I welcome the government's plans to increase community ownership of Scotland renewable resources. Can he tell the chamber when the Scotland Wealth Fund will be established? >> Minister, >> first of all, can I um can I welcome the member to our post? And it's nice to see her here. She's more experienced than than I am in this place and I should have taken the opportunity to welcome. I'm going to talk about community benefit right now. So, let me touch upon some of these issues that I know are important to her. As well as the this transition, the as well as the community benefit, the transition must create jobs in ports and coastal communities, opportunities for young people, contracts for Scottish businesses, stronger local economies. On the community benefit, we'll talk about and there's we'll talk about the Scotland more generally, but on this benefit, can I just talk about some of the benefits are already in place? SSEN transmission supporting the delivery of a thousand new homes across the north of Scotland is an example of the long-term impact. And during this parliamentary session, Miss Len will be pleased to hear we will establish a Scot Wealth Fund as a sensible step that we can take to ensure the benefits of renewable energy transition create long-term benefit for future generations. And I very much look forward to working with her and with others on that. I would also urge the UK government to learn from the failures of the past and look at how even at this stage a futures fund can be established while the Treasury continues to make billions from our energy sector, not least from the the um energy profits levy that's been so damaging to the sector. But we know it's not just about Westminster. Um the government is taking action as well. The Scottish government will deploy all of our devolved powers to ensure projects are delivered as quickly as possible, creating sustainable opportunities. In offshore wind alone, we've already unlocked almost 900 million of offshore wind investment, putting our own investment of over 150 million to work, crowding in 70 million from the UK public finance institutions and leveraging up to 675 million in private investment into projects with the potential to support 5,000 jobs. We're demonstrating that public and private sectors in Scotland can work together at pace to deliver highquality green jobs and drive growth. Now, in my last debate in this parliament, not just my party, but we as a parliament voted for energy policy to be devolved. That's because industry is actively telling us the where the barriers are to renewables deployment. And without full devolution, we need Westminster to take action. And I've been clear that a strategic spatial energy plan that fully reflects Scotland's renewable energy pipeline including our global leadership in floating off wind. And I'm going to take very briefly because I'm wondering if he's still going to talk about net stupid zero which was his last comment and maybe you can put it on the record to take that back from last time round. >> Duncan Massie, >> thank you for taking the intervention on the devolution point. Does this mean that you're committing to that the Scottish government will be paying CFD subsidies and will the Scottish government be paying for the 39 billion that the SSN keeps uh boasting about? Is that your commitment today that you're going to pay for them? >> Minister, >> you know, I have to say as well as not taking the opportunity to retract those dangerous and damaging remarks that Mr. Massi made previously and I hope he might take the opportunity later although I'm wondering if he's being gazumped this time by his leader who's making his remarks instead. I have to say that we they are so isolationist. Scotland exports electricity. If we align with the rest of Europe, we can export even further when it comes to energy security. We are part of the solution delivering jobs and investment back home here in Scotland. But there are damaging Westminster policies. transmission charging and we want to get rid of that so Scottish projects do not continue to be unfairly penalized and it means a more stable and predictable contracts for difference regime and I underlining that again to Labor colleagues in terms of their own motion. We also need to see greater investment and delivery from the UK government in supply chains, manufacturing capability, ports, infrastructure and crucially grid. Scotland is ready and delivering. Industry is ready and delivering. The projects are ready and delivering. What is needed now is for the UK government to match Scotland's ambition with action. So, in conclusion, the energy transition is not far off. It's happening now. And I'm determined to continue to build on the work that's been done to deliver on that during this parliamentary session. But this opportunity is bigger than any one government, any one sector, any one parliamentary term or anyone party. And we will get further with the support and collaboration of parliament. And we call on everyone in the chamber to work with us. That's why I've tried to accept as many amendments I possibly could today. No other economic opportunity currently available to Scotland promises the scale of jobs and growth for people and local communities as the energy transition. So again, can I thank colleagues in industry, Scottish communities, and here in parliament for their collegiality and so far willingness to work together. This is Scotland's opportunity, and I hope we can seize it together. Thank you, Deputy Prer. >> I call Daniel Johnson to speak and move amendment 114 1114.3. 5 minutes, please. Mr. Johnson, >> thank you, Deputy Sing Officer. I wouldn't have been able to correct you on the number of the amendment but I will move it anyway. Uh look, let me begin uh by acknowledging uh the kind of collegiate and consensual approach u that the minister is seeking today because I think it is important. I think not least because energy policy is so critical to the whole country and to the future of the economy. It you know energy is at the absolute heart of a country's competitiveness. That's been true in the past, the present and the future. In the past, you know, our our success has been built on access to coal because it was reliable, cost effective, and secure. Uh through the 20th century, access to oil was critical, and it sustained hundreds of thousands of job and continues to uh uh uh employ around 100,000 uh people. and the future. And critically on that point, as we seek to do something exceptionally difficult in terms of floating offshore wind, that ability to do engineering in the harshest of environments out in the North Sea could could prove uh to deliver dividends for Scotland. And we must ensure that it does. But that will require long-term planning and it will require consensus. But it will also I think require a degree of canderan reality which sometimes I think this debate lacks on both sides of the argument. It gets reduced or traduced even to sort of drill baby drill versus turn off the taps. Neither of those positions is tenable. For a start, peak oil was in 1999 and the according to most sources, we've extracted about 80 to 90% of the extractable resource. But we are going to we'll give away in a moment relying on gas for decades to come whether we like it or not. I'll give away at that point. >> Liam Care >> on that point. The member is unquestionably right. So does he support the licensing of Jack Door and indeed Rosebank? >> Daniel Johnson. Well, I wouldn't want to preempt uh the prime minister, but look, let let's talk about that because that reliance on gas is there where we like it or not. Not just because that is how we heat our homes and we use three times as much energy heating buildings and homes as we do in the consumption of electricity alone. If we wanted to switch overnight, the grid quite simply doesn't have the capacity. We are not generating probably not generating enough electricity certainly across the United Kingdom. So therefore the question comes to this if we are going to be using gas for decades to come and indeed we need to do so then the carbon footprint of that gas is important and the reality is that gas produced from the North Sea has a carbon footprint around 50% less than that imported from other parts of the world. So if we are going to continue to use gas let's make sure that we have secure access to it and it has the lowest possible carbon footprint. And I would suggest that means using gas from the North Sea. But there's also the point of cost. The reality is it's about seven pence per comparable unit of gas versus 26 p. An overnight switch would frankly right now impoverished people on a scale that's hard to imagine. So we must talk about mix and pathway how we will transition away gas. And we must be using all energy sources available to us. And I would say gently to members on the SNP benches that includes using nuclear because there are parts of the world producing nuclear reactors especially South Korea for 33 pounds a megawatt hour. That is considerably less than the vast bulk of renewable uh wind. And I think we need to be talking about that mix because we need base load when the wind isn't blowing. And if it's not nuclear, then it probably needs to be pumped hydro or probably some combination two because that is how Norway produces its energy. It's how Sweden produces energy. And let's not forget that France has the cheapest electricity in Europe and we know how it produces it. But on the point around renewables, it is important that 26% of UK renewables come from Scotland. 62% of the UK's onshore wind is produced in Scotland. It has created 47,000 jobs. We are a net exporter of electricity. But we need to remember how that infrastructure has been built out. It's been built out on the back on the basis of underwriting the the price across all UK bill payers. And if we look at the aggregate wholesale price versus the price guarantees through those, the aggregate CFD strike price is 1550 per megawatt hour versus a wholesale price of 90. We received in Scotland for projects around 400500 million pounds in the year 2526 through contracts for difference. So if we're going to talk about uh uh devolving energy policy, the government has to answer these questions. What happens to those contracts? Will they be honored? What happens to those costs? Because tens of pounds spread across all UK bill payers would turn into hundreds of pounds shouldered by Scottish bill payers. And and most importantly, in order for all of these things happen, we need grid upgrades. And who will pay for those? I I believe I'm out of time and I apologize otherwise I'd have given them away. So this we need less rhetoric and more reality. and we need plans grounded in both climate and geological reality because we simply cannot rely on fossil fuels for energy security in the future. Thank you, deputy presiding officer. >> Thank you. And a timely reminder that members should not be intervening in the last minute of speeches. Thank you. And I call Malcolm offered to speak to and move amendment one4.5 minutes, please. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Um, Scotland's [clears throat] energy opportunity can be summed up in three simple words. Drill. Scotland drill. Renewables are no silver bullet for cheaper energy in Scotland. Yes, they have a complimentary role to play in the balanced clean energy system going forward, but they will never replace the dominant role that hydrocarbons play in our day-to-day lives. Right now today, the UK is is is is energized by 75% hydrocarbons and 25% alternatives being wind, biomass, and nuclear. The idea that we can flip that on its head to 75 25% 75% renewables in 2020 2050 is for the birds. It's never going to happen. Why? Number one, it's too expensive. Consider the the the grid system we've had for the last 50 years. It was based on coal fire power stations in local in major connobations being expanded through the grid to to consumers. Now we're talking about a new grid system which takes it from the most remote areas the north of Scotland the heredities etc. and getting that to where local populations are is incredibly expensive. Not. And and and if you said to me, well, the good news is we're going to remove the old grid and replace it with a new grid, taking all the energy from the the highlands to to south. That's fine, but we have to keep the old grid apparently. Why is that? Because apparently sometimes the wind doesn't blow. There is something called intimacy. Yes, delighted to have an intervention. >> Daniel Johnson, >> I thank the member for giving week and I think he's right in a sense to talk about the complexity of grid upgrade. I think it's hugely complicated. But does he not acknowledge that according to the North Sea transition authority 90% of the extractable hydrocarbons have been extracted from the North Sea? So when he says drill baby drill, where's that drilling going to extract the required hydrocarbons from? And this is this is the OBR saying there's only four billion barrels left. OEUK say probably 12. And if you talk to the operators, they think considerably more. In the last year, Norway drill 47 fields. We drilled none. technology will help us find more oil and gas. And the reality is that when we have intermittency and we have wind, we we pay a billion pounds to shut the wind farms off and we not and we don't have any gas. What do we do when we send you a letter to the NHS? We hope your operation happens on a windy day. How does that work? But this actually exposes the the folly of actually the Conservative Party policy on energy over 14 years because it was George Osman and Theresa May that invented this system and the mess that we and the mess that we're now in with energy prices is now four times the US and seven times China. And I did try to fix this. Terresa May, she was the one that brought in net zero 2019 in a 70-minute debate in the House of Commons with no votes. And George Osborne, he created the whole subsidy system, the CFDs, and decided to put that on to to to to consumers rather than general taxation. Only one-third of consumers bills is the cost of electricity. This is the biggest transfer of money from poor people to rich people since Robin Hood. And that is why the Tories can't be trusted again on energy. Don't be fooled by Kemy's latest demos and conversion because she just parrots my lines. I tried my best to reform this party, but I tell you they are stuffed full of renewable zealots and that's why I joined reform. So what could a balanced energy system look like? If you want a slogan, how about 50/50 by 2050? 50% hydrocarbons, 25% renewables, 25% uh uh nuclear. Look at China, 30% of global emissions. They've already hit 25% renewables. America, 13% of of world emissions. You know, I'm going to make progress. I' I've only got two and a half minutes. I've achieved 25% renewables. >> Yes. Okay, fine. I'll get that back. Yeah. >> Alan Brown, >> I thank him for giving way. His motion actually calls for the same level output for nuclear as renewables. Now, Scotland's already get 18 gawatt of renewable capacity. That will increase in years to come to 30 gawatt. So is he saying Scotland should have 30 gawatt of nuclear which is like 10 hingley point C's or something like 50 small modular reactor is he really saying that's what should be delivered >> how much >> my comment was in relation to the whole of the United Kingdom I absolutely do believe we should we should have nuclear at that level and you we see what's happened in France but you know because China well how China got 25% renewables they have used coal as their transition fuel America used shell gas as their transition fuel we should be using North Sea gas as our transition fuel. We're floating on a sea of gas and yet we import this stuff from the US and we port from Norway from fuels over the ones we've shut down. Even the Norwegian energy minister thinks it's completely dafted. So look, we need a new energy system which is sane. Let's just call it sane. Okay, let's just pick an acronym. An energy system which is secure in these uncertain times, which is affordable, and which gives nationwide employment. And here here's the Brucey bonus. Here's the Brucey bonus. The cabinet sector for public sector reform can take an axe to the ludicrous5 billion pounds he spends on net stupid zero by Hollywood in this financial year which would solve in one stroke the Scottish government's black hole. I move the motion in my name. I call Christopher Le to speak to it and move amendment one4.1. >> 10 minutes please. >> Thank you for studing officer. I begin by declaring interest as member of worklands council and and move the amendment. Um I think this is a debate about the program for government and while perhaps others have not covered that um directly I think it's really important that we actually do cover that and focus on what the government is laying in front of us and frankly hold them to account better than has been before. And while the text of the motion in front of us today is points to an ambitious approach to Scotland's energy, I'm afraid the program for government does not. Yes, Scotland's energy policy is not in Scotland's hands. But that does not mean we can't do anything at all. We have an energy sector in limbo and communities shouting that they want a greater role and stake in our energy system. And what was the government response? Frankly, lack of leadership and vision. For example, the program for government is quick to criticize the energy profits levy but fails to acknowledge the uncertainty and concern in the sector right now. The SSP to nuos grid connection costs, these are all issues weighing heavily on the minds of the sector in Scotland yet completely absent from the BFG. And I'm glad the minister did acknowledge that. Now, I appreciate that these structural barriers and UK level plans are not in the remit of the Scottish government, but I'd urge the minister not to co-sign an SP which will not deliver for Scotland and ask him to make that commitment today. While I welcome the government's recommitment to deliver an energy strategy, this cannot become a catch-all excuse to avoid taking clear positions and acting where we can now. I'll gladly commit to working with the minister to develop an energy strategy that delivers the ambition and vision we need in Scotland, but that can't put off be put off for the next two years. Our supply chain stakeholders have been dutifully attending conferences, engagement breakfasts, meet the buyer events for years now. Companies of all sizes have been saying to me that they see the potential economic opportunity in front of them. However, when I attended the Scottish Renewables on shore wind conference, and I know the minister did as well, stakeholders I met there expressed frustration. Frustration that the opportunities they have been preparing for are not materializing. frustration that was what several years ago an exciting and dynamic outlook for local businesses in this space has become murkier. Scotland has a reputation and developers tell us this for stable investment and stable development of renewables and the minister noted this. We have land availability and the resource and capacity factors for wind amongst other generation methods which set us ahead head and shoulders above Europe. However, policy certainty is now under question. There's a reason so many developers come to Scotland to invest. >> No, no, I'm going to progress. Sorry. And likewise, why so many of our communities and councils increasingly look to develop ambitious energy projects of their own, as they should. But the program for government leaves everyone without a clear direction for renewables. And if we're not careful, we'll begin to undermine that reputation and confidence we've thus far garnered in Scotland. We must change that course today and going forward and inject confidence and stability into the sector. We need to build momentum, get projects consented, and a framework fit for purpose that bakes in and delivers shared ownership on mass. Now, I don't have time to go through the program for government entirely today, but I do want to I do look forward to the minister coming to committee, and I want to focus on an issue that we do desperately need to address in government and in this parliament, and that's one of energy ownership. Now, the Scottish Greens have a clear vision for a greener, fairer future based on diversified energy ownership. And we want to empower communities, councils, and government itself to play a much greater role in owning reaping the rewards of our country's energy abundance. In short, we want to keep Scotland's energy wealth in Scotland's hands. And the program for government commits to review community benefits, and I look forward to the government publishing the frankly long-awaited consultation responses on that subject. But we've been through rounds of this before, and nothing substantive changes. Let's not put off the big problems we face by focusing entirely on community benefits. only for private companies that wish to ignore it to continue to do so, taxing the conscience of those companies that do engage in good faith. Instead, we must unashamedly back community, public, and shared energy ownership. Now, the benefits of doing so are crystal clear. Presiding officer, Community Land Scotland has crunched the numbers and they found that community owned turbines bring an average of 34 times more than than what private developers would give back if they paid the old 55,000 per megawatt community benefit in full. Increasing community benefits to 6,000 pounds per megawatt is not the scale of progress we need to address this imbalance in ownership. By reclaiming ownership of our energy system, we not only enable decarbonization, but we build community wealth to invest in local infrastructure and delivery of good quality, locally delivered public services. And there in lies Scotland's greener, fairer future if this government wants to listen and act. In Orcne, for example, um we're leading the way with a long history of community owned turbines. We're now implementing plans for council owned wind farms and the RP power campaign group has pointed out and supported that this publicly owned development is expected to bring in 120 million over its lifetime. This will help fund frontline services operated by Ornland's council. That's what keeping Scotland's energy wealth in Scotland's hands looks like and the government urgently needs to follow suit. Compare that to the fact that according to the Center for Local Economy Scotland, nearly 90% of profits from private wind farms go to corporate shareholders. That's an estimated 5.6 6 billion during the period 2019 to 2024. People living in and around these wind farms, however, have received less than 3% of that profit. That injustice is felt by too many communities all across Scotland. And the Scottish Greens, we are clear that we must must do better. This parliament cannot accept a repeat of the oil and gas plunder as the minister referred to. And that's why presiding officer, we're calling on the government to keep Scotland's energy wealth in Scotland's hands. But how do we get there? There's one action the Scottish government can take today to set us firmly on that path. And I'm glad the minister's acknowledged he'll support our amendment. If the government really has Scotland's back, it will fund its proposed Scotland Wealth Fund with 300 million pounds from the Scotland lease money. With 300 million, the wealth fund can get to work supporting community groups wanting to develop their own energy generation projects or take shared ownership stakes with private companies, many of whom already have a good track record of engaging with company communities. on this we can support more local author local authorities to replicate what Oralan's council has done ensuring a stable source of revenue for more cash trarap councils diversifying public income streams with 300 million the wealth fund could even support the Scottish government itself to take stakes directly mirroring what the Welsh government has done with treasured limited private company wholly owned and overseen by the Welsh government now we're we're not alone in calling for this indeed just yesterday the national reported Dr. Josh Doel, director of policy and advocacy for Community Land Scotland, arguing that quote, "Lf funds from the Scotland leasing pot must not be squandered or spent on plugging holes in the budget." Likewise, Amanda Grim, the advocacy lead for Stop Climate Chaos Scotland, noted, quote, "As we transition from fossil fuels to homegrown renewables, we have the opportunity to make Scotland's energy system fairer as well as cleaner." Now, we the Scottish Greens completely agree. With a new Scotland wealth fund seated with 300 million pounds, we can begin our journey to keep Scotland's energy wealth in Scotland's hands. By committing all future Scotland revenue to the wealth fund, this parliament can ensure we stay on that path for generations to come. Colleagues in this chamber can build this future with us by backing the Scottish Greens amendment today. There is another immediate action the minister can take today. He can commit to improve and reviewing the repowering pilot on forestry land Scotland land by extending it to all public land including Crown Estate Scotland so that communities can develop renewable energy projects in more areas across the country. Similarly, whilst I understand the limits placed on the pilots to 50 megawatt sites, the minister should recognize that some communities can manage bigger projects especially in partnership with private developers. Once successful pilot projects have been delivered, we look forward to working with the Scottish government to see all public land and repowering sites of any scale give priority access to communities. However, having spoken with representatives from community land Scotland presiding officer, it's clear to me that these pilot sites will not actually get off the ground unless three things are sorted out. First, the minister must create an enabling environment by ensuring that community asset transfers are successful. For that to happen, Forestry Land Scotland needs to work with communities in close collaboration with the CARES scheme in local energy Scotland. Private developers should see this also as an opportunity to support communities on shared ownership projects. Second, funding must be unlocked at pace. Of course, CARES serves that function, but it's too restrained. The Scottish Greens 300 million Scotland Wealth Fund would be in a much better position to seed fund these projects through long-term capital capital and grants as I'd like to have seen more of frankly GB GB Energy doing. Third, this repowering pilot needs to be the start of a wholesale culture change within our government, energy sector, local authorities, and public bodies. The round table I've invited to the minister to attend on this topic, which he's yet to apply to. It must be the start of that culture change. Properly supporting community energy development through this repowering pilot has the chance to enhance this considerably. Now, these are only two proposals that the Scottish government can deploy now, which will not only drive investment and prosperity in our communities and our supply chain, but actually make returns for the Scottish government if delivered properly. These alone of course will not make up entirely for the other shortcomings in the program for government in front of us now but they set us firmly on the right track. One presiding officer where Scotland's energy well wealth stays in Scotland's hands. Thank you. >> I call Liam K to speak to and move amendment 14.4 6 minutes please. >> Thank you presiding officer. There are no prizes, regrettably, for being the first to be right. But having stood in this chamber time and again arguing that Scotland needs a pragmatic energy policy which recognizes the importance of renewables, the continuing importance of oil and gas, the scientific and practical case for new nuclear, the need to invest in grid and storage, and above all to manage the transition rather than pretend we can simply switch one energy source off and flip to another. It is gratifying to hear how many of my arguments from previous debates have been taken on board. So, having endured Steven Flynn cheerleading a windfall tax in Westminster, John Swinny and Tom Arthur demanding that it be hiked to astronomical levels, Nicholas Sturgeon demanding the investment allowances be removed. I'm delighted to hear the minister's conversion to my position that the windfall tax should be removed immediately just as I am in two seconds, Mr. Johnson, because I am delighted that Labor after years of blocking investment in the North Sea and having of course capitulated to Nicola Sturgeon's demands to hike the windfall tax and scrap investment allowances have shifted so substantially on Jack Door and Rosebank, although he was too koi to make his position clear. Perhaps he'll do so now. >> Daniel Johnson, I >> I was merely raising say given the members amazing powers of foresight. Does he have the lottery numbers for the weekend? >> Liam K. >> Uh if I do, I'm not giving them to the likes of yourself, Daniel. Of course, but I understand why Daniel's so keen to associate with my uh position on things because the real world has a habit of intruding on unevidenced political posturing. And in the real world, Norse sea gas still meets almost half of UK gas demand. In fact, around 84% of homes in the UK are still heated by gas. And what Sana Dyster Downey misses in her amendment is that the acceleration of electrification, whether it be transport, heating or industry is already happening and the fact is that electricity demand is projected to double by 2050. So the challenge is how we generate enough reliable affordable electricity to meet that demand. So when it comes to oil and gas, what the Green Party always miss is that stopping domestic production doesn't stop demand. It simply changes from where that demand is met. And the more that we meet that demand from imports, the higher the emissions and the greater the impact on the environment, the higher the unemployment, thousand jobs a month according to OEUK, the lower our energy security, the lower our tax, and once those capabilities have disappeared, they are extraordinarily difficult to rebuild. Now, so says RGU's energy transition institute in its latest report, delivering positive energy. It says over 42,000 people were employed in the Northeast offshore energy workforce in 2024. It's about 90% of those in oil and gas. But it warns of catastrophic potential job losses by 2035. But it also tells us something more hopeful because if this is managed properly, more than 90% of the region's offshore energy skills are transferable to renewables and the like. In short, the people who built the North Sea can also build our future. We have already got the experts in subsea engineering, fabrication, project management, vessels, ports, and offshore construction. And they can help us make a global center for renewables and a genuine energy transition. That is why RGU talks of a Goldilock zone in which reducing oil and gas employment is matched by a growth in renewables. And that's where I come to reform's positioning and the report in yesterday's energy voice which highlighted their hostility to renewable energy officer. There are legitimate questions around costs, subsidies, intermittency, storage, and planning of renewable technologies. But to describe renewable energy as a big fat racket, as Malcolm offered did in this parliament just a few months ago, is not a serious contribution to the energy debate. We know the renewable energy sector already employs perhaps 40,000 people in Scotland. It generates about 13.3 billion pound in turnover. Those are my constituents. Those are our constituents. So to have someone come in here and just trash an entire sector is frankly irresponsible. Mr. Offford. >> Mr. Offford. And I asked the member whether he's discussed his enthusiasm for Northy oil and gas with senior members of the Conservative Party like Theresa May, like John Selvin Gummer, like Alex Sharma. They certainly don't share his enthusiasm. >> Liam Care, >> I'm I'm grateful to Mr. Offford for acknowledging my enthusiasm for oil and gas, which has never been in doubt. And I can assure him that senior members of the Conservative Party indeed members of this entire parliament have never had any doubt and I have discussed it at every opportunity how we promote North Sea oil and gas officer. Every energy technology has its costs and its benefits. Every technology involves hard choices about investment, infrastructure, reliability and security. And that's why I want to pick up on something that Daniel Johnson said because if we accept the doubling of electricity demand by 2050 that the North Sea reserves are in decline that intermittent renewables are vulnerable to events such as dunle float is the uh word that Mr. Crawford was searching for earlier then we need firm reliable dispatchable capacity or for Alan Brown's benefit let's call it base load and the indisputable fact is nuclear provides that dependable lowcarbon power alongside intermittent renewables Scotland already has the nuclear skills it has the sites it has the engineering expertise this is not an argument that nuclear should replace renewables as some wish to suggest but rather that there is no coherent reason to voluntarily exclude a key source of reliable lowcarbon power from the balanced energy system that Scotland needs. Presenting officer, this is a new parliament and that gives us a real opportunity going forward. I really won't have time as >> the member is concluding. Sorry. I am delighted that the SNP and Labor have moved to support my position and I I genuinely offer to work with the government on a proper energy strategy to replace its wholly discredited draft and its with its ludicrous and deeply damaging presumption against oil and gas. I do hope the Greens finally see that their attempts to switch off the North Sea is simply economic, environmental, and energy security vandalism. And I truly hope that reform will eventually develop a grown-up energy policy policy that doesn't trash an entire sector or propose open cast coal mining on the granite of Aberdine Shire. But I know sir, the Scottish Conservatives have the energy policy that Scotland needs and this is the transition I want to see and that's why I move the amendment in my name. Thank you. >> Thank you. I call uh Sana Dickstra Downey to speak to and move amendment one4.2. Five minutes please. >> Thank you deputy presiding officer and I move the amendment in my name and I too uh welcome the minister's collegial uh approach because Scotland has an enormous energy opportunity. The challenge is to deliver on this opportunity with the ambition and the holistic approach um that it requires because our focus must not just be on how much energy can be produced although that is important of course but also who benefits from it, how much of it we use and what the transformation can deliver for the people of Scotland and community benefits to my mind for energy projects must be at the heart of Scotland's energy transformation. It is imperative that those communities hosting new onshore renewable developments see the benefits in their own communities. We're asking them to accommodate large infrastructure developments on their doorsteps. Turbines, pylons, batteries, and generators, big structures that fundamentally often change the landscape that they live in. It's difficult to build support for renewable energy when communities face disruption without seeing any of the benefits. Now, the government's proposals for updated community benefit guidelines published back in February were underwhelming and fell far short of the demands of councils, communities, and campaigners. The proposed £6,000 per megawatt, for instance, is a real terms cut compared to the rate of 5,000 that was set 12 years ago. That cannot be right. And so, we asked the government to reflect on this and set more ambitious levels uh to those set out in its recent working paper. and to include pumped storage which is currently not covered in the guidelines. But the benefits to communities should be about more than a check. It should also mean local jobs, investment, skills and where possible a genuine stake in the infrastructure being developed. >> Not just now, please. Thanks. Uh Scotland has the capacity and the ability to lead the world in renewable energy, but we must make sure that this opportunity touches every community from Kelso to Theo. But increasing renewables capacity is only part of the equation. You can have all the wind turbines in the world, but if the grid can't get the electricity to where it is needed, then that is pointless. You can have all the solar panels in the world, but if cars still run on petrol and boilers on gas, then emissions won't go down. We need to drive down demand for oil and gas by accelerating electrification in all sectors. And I I appreciate the point that Lim Ker was making earlier, and of course, that work is already happening. My point is that it needs to go faster from the way that we heat our homes through heat pumps and heat networks to how we power our transportation and we need to use less energy through a range of energy efficiency measures. Now, Liberal Democrats have long called for a nationwide insulation program. Um, yes, I'll give way at this point. >> I'm very grateful just on that point that she's just made. So if she's proposing that you move away from fossil fuels and electrify as much as possible from which source is she going to generate that electricity sadi so I think that the points that the members made around the mix are important but renewables have to be a really really crucial part of this mix and that is why we want to make sure that community benefits um are strengthened to make sure that we have buyin from communities so that we can accelerate that renewable um transformation. information. Um, talking about insulation, we want to see a program that's targeted at those least able to pay. And measures such as these will help us make our homes and buildings more efficient, lower household bills, and provide greater security from volatile uh global energy prices. Of course, all of this does not mean that we turn our backs on the people and communities whose livelihoods have historically depended on on oil and gas. Scotland has developed an enormous pool of expertise in engineering, technical and industrial skills over many years. That expertise will be essential to building the industries of the future. The transition should be about taking those skills with us and making sure that the people who have powered Scotland's energy economy can play a leading role in its future. Uh not just now. But we cannot simply assume that highquality employment opportunities will magically appear. Workers need access to the training, investment, and pathways that allow them to move into other industries. A successful transition should build on the strengths that we already have instead of treating the past and future of Scotland's energy sector as distinct, separate entities. We also need to recognize that the transition will not look the same in every part of Scotland. The answer cannot be a one-sizefits-all. The transition will require change, and we should be honest about that. But change is much easier to support when people don't feel that the change is leaving them behind. So while I welcome both the ambition and the tone of the government's motion, we must acknowledge, as I'm sure the minister does, that the opportunity that Scotland has here is about more than how much energy can be produced or how quickly new infrastructure is built. It is about what that energy transformation delivers for the people of Scotland. It is about making our homes warmer, reducing household bills, creating good jobs, and helping communities to benefit from the infrastructure that they host. It is about using our renewable resources to reduce our dependence on oil and gas while taking the skills and expertise of our existing energy workforce with us. If we can get those things right, then we can build an energy system that is cleaner, fairer, more secure, and beneficial to communities across Scotland. Thank you. We now move to the open debate. Can I remind members who have yet to speak the request to speak button to do so now? And I call Kate Campbell, six minutes, please. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Scotland is a net exporter of energy. We create six or seven times more energy than we use. And yet we have some of the highest energy costs in Europe. Why? Because most of the powers over energy are reserved. And the UK government has always neglected energy policy, but particularly policies that would benefit the people of Scotland. And as a result, households and businesses are suffering. Labor promised us GB energy. Scotland will be the powerhouse of our clean energy mission. They said they promised a thousand skilled jobs in the Northeast, but they have delivered 132 and 46 of those are people living outside of Scotland. They promised millions of pounds of investment in Scottish renewables and instead they have delivered millions of pounds of investment in English solar panels. But it's not just Labor who've let us down. The Tories absolutely failed to invest in upgrading the grid for decades. The challenge with moving energy around is one of the main reasons that we aren't fully utilizing the renewable energy that is created in Scotland. When the grid doesn't have capacity, it creates bottlenecks and we have to turn on the gas to create electricity which pushes up our unit price. Calement cost more than1 billion pounds already so far this year. And now we have Nisso bringing forward their strategic spatial energy plan as has been mentioned the SE. It's jointly commissioned by the UK, Scottish and Welsh governments. But NISO is only sharing the halfozen or so scenarios it's produced with the UK government who will decide which one of those goes out to consultation. This is a strategy that has enormous consequence for Scotland. If we don't see investment in increasing the capacity of the grid in a way that enables renewable energy to flow from where it's produced to the places where it will be used, the consequences for us could be catastro catastrophic. And the Scottish government must be able to shape that strategy or we could continue to see reliance on switching on the gas when we can't get renewable energy to where it's needed and that pushes up our unit price and puts hundreds of pounds on household bills and those are the household >> certainly Liam Car >> I'm very grateful if energy was devolved who would actually pay for the maintenance and expansion of that grid infrastructure >> Kate Campbell um it's very interesting that the party that allowed build the grid to get into the state that it's in today. The state that is costing households hundreds of pounds would pose that question. Like everything, when we become an independent country, when we become an independent country, we will work out how to manage our resources in a way that is best for the people of Scotland. Um I have no doubt about that. Uh so this this cost pushes up our unit price and puts hundreds of pounds onto household bills. And those are the bills that Labour promised would go down by £300, but which have gone up by £600. But we shouldn't be surprised because on energy, as in all else, Scotland has been repeatedly let down by UK government after UK government going right back to Thatcher not creating a futures fund when there was the opportunity. And that opportunity has gone. I heard Duncan Massie in Tuesday's debate on the economy talking about a return to peak North Sea oil production. Either he doesn't understand or he is prepared to mislead people because the reality is as has been said the North Sea is a mature basin. Production has harved since 1999 which was peak oil. There is not much oil left and the cost of extraction is high and that is before we even consider the climate consequences of continued extraction. We have seen wildfires this summer. No, I will continue to make progress. More than 250,000 people were plac displaced across southern Europe. Here in rainy Scotland, we had wildfires in the Kerang Gorms and just outside this building and Arthur Sea as well as the glacial collapse in Tibet and Nepal. And the Amazon, the Amazon, the rainforest is at risk of wildfire. That's an area that should be saturated with water. Climate change is very real and must be part of the conversation on energy. Fossil fuels are nearing the end of life and any responsible government should be focused on the transformation, protecting jobs and transitioning skills for the industry and the supporting sectors. And for those pushing nuclear as an alternative, the cost of nuclear is prohibitive. We had professor Helm at our energy committee last week, new nuclear is costing 16 billion pounds per gigawatt while gas costs 50 million to 1 billion per gigawatt. No, I will continue to make progress. The future is renewables. There are challenges as has been said. The grid capacity is a huge one. As mentioned, the UK government needs to invest in it. Intermittency is also a challenge and we need to invest in research and development for energy storage. No. As well as diversification of our energy supply. But here's the really critical thing. Continued reliance on fossil fuels equals continued price instability. A future with renewables means that we can create price stability. We can insulate ourselves from geopolitical shocks like the war in Ukraine, like Trump's war in Iran. Shocks that will inevitably continue to happen because for gas costs about 10% is uh capital upfront costs and 90% is variable ongoing costs. So, primarily the cost of fuel. But with renewables, that's reversed. Most of the costs are capital costs. And because we know these costs upfront, we know what the price will be in five or 10 years time. And that is so important because it's not just the cost of living for households. Energy costs are impacting the public sector who are delivering the services that we rely on. And they're impacting businesses. And when business costs go up, so do prices. And then jobs are lost. So we need to break this cycle. Long-term energy security is vital for us all. And we can only achieve it with renewables. And we can only fully achieve our potential with a government focused on delivering the infrastructure that we need. And that will only ever be the Scottish government. And it must be a Scottish government with full powers over energy policy. The full powers that can only come with independence. [applause] >> I call Paul Mlennon to be followed by Donald McKinnon. Six minutes please. This >> Thank you officer. debate is about the enormous opportunity and that's the word opportunity that Scotland's energy resources present for my constituents in East Loian Coast and Lamurs and for communities across Scotland and of course for our shared future. Scotland is energy rich. We've won the national lottery twice. First with North Oil and gas and now with worldclass renewable resources in wind, wave, tidle and the potential for green hydrogen. Yet too many households still struggle with high bills. too many communities see the wealth generate from the local resource flow elsewhere that that can't be right and easily then we see both the challenge and the opportunity and clearly and he's slowly then we've got two onshore wind farms we've got three offshore grid connections >> just progress a little bit further into my speech if that's okay to has been an employer in East London for for 20 years and has been there since for 1980s now as we look to the future of that site my focus and the focus of the Scottish government is clear clean green renewable energy and skilled jobs that come with it. I'll take the intervention from Mr. Offford at this stage. >> Mr. Alford. >> Thank you, Mr. McLaren. And I was actually down in Toronto during the election campaign and on the day that I was there, Torres was providing 45% of Scotland's electricity. What what would your plan be when Torres is shut down? >> I'll come to that in my speech. Just to inform Mr. Roford as well, I was actually the counselor down there for for 15 years. I've been engaged there. I mean engaged with torness and still do on a regular basis in terms of that the base load issue I think will be picked up in terms of that and and the future renewables will be picked up in the energy strategy that Mr. Gthins will be be talking about in the future. So as we look to the future of the site and this [clears throat] is the important thing my focus and the focus of the Scottish government is clear green renewable energy and skilled jobs that come with it. Now Scotland has the raw ingredients for lowcost green hydrogen in abundance and we have concentrations of energy expert expertise including atess that can harness wind wave and tidal power to produce it and just on Monday we were talking with torsess one of the meetings we had and dynamics are part of the group in terms of the hydrogen opportunities that exist in on that site. Now the decommissioning and the transition at toess can and must deliver opportunities for the new existing workforce while creating new ones. Now Mr. Mr. Gins and I have had a chat around about the future of Toronto and he will shortly receive an invite from myself and the station manager to discuss that going forward and Mr. Gin said he would be quite happy to go down and see that. So we will be talking about Torness and as I said Mr. Offford I engage with him on the regular basis. Now shortly after I was elected in 2020 >> if I can have the time. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Liam Car >> I'm very grateful the member founds upon wind wave and tidal power uh for Scotland's future but like Kate Campbell makes absolutely no account for the base load that he was asked about. So does the member acknowledge the need for base load and if so where's it coming from? >> As I said in my response to to Mark I'm sure that that's something that Mr. Gthins will will bring forward in the energy strategy in terms of that and we see about the future of renewables. Now I want to come back to the point I was making about after my election in 2021 I established diesel loading energy forum. Now we have an annual conference and that's coming up in in two weeks. We bring together all the providers. So that's including tor that's Scottish power that's SSE that's Scottish Gas that's EDF and we bring together local communities local community councils which I think is really important and local companies such as Sunamp and and Hadfab. Now I want to touch a little bit on Hadfab because this this is where this was mentioned in my speech just the other day when we were talking about another issue. Hadfab has seen a massive increase in its workforce. It's a fabrication company. Jillian Martin and I visited earlier on this year and we heard from a growing number of apprentices. Now, Hadfab has seen a three-fold increase in its workforce. A three-fold increase and and the number of apprentices and of course there are others. We've already grown employment through renewable supply chain. Just the ECIU and the CBI advised around 1500 green jobs already in place in East London and growing and that's people who work and live in East London. We've seen community benefits including support for the local families with energy costs and we know there's far more potential and the full value of an energy stay in here in Scotland. Nationally the picture is the same and customer lease I can think of made a really important point about the importance of community energy and I think that's something that's really important. When we talked about the community benefits what I done was brought for brought the communities together along with the developers and we we we developed a framework around about that and that works really well. Scotland generates more far more electricity than it consumes. And let's let's not forget that a few people have mentioned that already. Net electricity exports have been sub substantial. Yet households face rising bills and business costs that undermine competitiveness. Analysis has shown that a different policy approach, one that properly values a lowc cost renewable generation, increases storage and ends the waste of pain generators not to produce. And this I mean this when you think about this, it pays generators not to produce. And I'll touch on that issue just a little bit further in my speech. could deliver the latest the lowest wholesale electricity prices in Western Europe and cut household bills by a third. I'm fair dr energy mentioned that on a number of occasions now that we ease the cost of having pressures for families any slowdown. The Scottish government is already act within the powers we have and informing energy consensus to bring forward more lowcost energy. I've already taken two I just want to progress a little bit further if it's okay. um lowcost renewable projects more quickly including community renewables investing in the hydrogen sector and we've mentioned before a Scot Scotland wealth fund so that more of the benefit people reaches here we're determined to make Scotland an energy superpower and ensure a just transition that creates good jobs and supports workers and communities through change but the crucial point is inescapable Scotland has energy it doesn't have the full power to decide how the energy is used how it wealth is shared energy powers remained um still mostly in reserve issue. Now there are still challenges. Last week I hosted a round table with EDF power solutions and the issues discussed were around about the following. Grid capacity is still a major issue and one of the issues they mentioned in in the discussion was about the strategic spatial energy plan and the lack of involvement from the sector. This was coming from EDF and from Scottish government being involved in that. The process is still to take around about another 18 months. That is far far too slow and the Scottish government haven't been fully involved in that either from the UK government. That needs to move. that is hindering development. At this stage, developers need certainty from distribution network operators and of course transmission operators. Scotland has to be included in fully consulted of course in the review of the electricity market arrangements. Also, consumer and investment confidence is being impacted by this delay already. Now, I know the Scottish government are working on energy strategy and just transition plan that Mr. Gthins has talked about. The Scottish government needed to fully develop a skilled workforce as well to meet the future demand. Presiding officer, this is Scotland's greatest second great energy opportunity. We must not miss it. Placing Scotland's energy in Scotland's hands. We must lower bills, create and retain high quality jobs, give communities real stake in the projects around them, accelerate progress towards net zero, and build a fairer, more prosperous country. I support the motion and urge colleagues to do the same. Thank you. >> I call Donald McKinnon to be followed by Emma Rodic. Four minutes, please. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Last month I attended an international conference on community energy storage in my constituency at the Stormway campus of UHI Northwest in Hedes. It was a fascinating event that showcased the wide range of options for energy storage that could be part of our energy future. From hydrogen to battery storage, they present huge potential and integration with community energy projects creates the possibility of even more benefits. Nelan leads the way in community energy with projects in Bar South, Northwest, Lewis and Harris. These include the largest community energy project in the UK, the 9 megawatt point and sandwick wind farm which generates an average annual profit of1 million pounds that is reinvested in the community. At the conference, we heard from former MP Colum Macdonald about Point and Sandwick's plans for a battery storage installation in Storway. This would pro provide resilience to community energy generators on the island by helping to balance the grid in the event of any disruption to supply to the mainland. Currently, outages result in diesel fired power station in Storway taking over the island's electricity supply and wind turbines being switched off. The benefits of community energy are well understood in our islands. And as we heard from Christopher Lek in his excellent speech earlier, research shows that community-owned renewable projects provide 34 times the financial benefit to local communities than the community benefit provided by privately owned wind farms. But energy in our islands is a story of two parts. On the one hand, community-owned energy and on the other largecale multinational prop multinationalowned proposals. In 2022, a 1.8 8 gawatt interconnector was approved for Lewis. At the same time, the Scotland leasing round opened up opportunities for three sites off the coast of Lewis. Two to the north off the butt of Lewis and one just three miles off the west coast. With two of those Scotland projects looking to connect to the interconnector alongside existing onshore commercial developments proposed, the grid is now overs subscribed. The situation is putting at risk the opportunities for community projects to connect to the grid and asking community projects to compete with multinationals is not fair and grid reform must reflect this. I hope that the minister will take forward these arguments with his UK counterparts. It is also vital that these projects continue to receive the support that they need from CARES to put them in the best possible situation to take up grid connection offers when they arise. And I am pleased to see the commitment to investment in cares in the PFG. This does not need to be an eitheror. Yes, something has to give to allow community projects to progress, but power at scale by private developers will be part of the story of the energy future of our islands too. The example of Ellen Shia energy shows what ambitious collaboration between communities and large-scale projects can look like with the project looking to take up a 20% share option in onshore projects. But they will need support to do that and I hope the minister will be there right behind them. Supply chain benefits are also important and investment in ports and infrastructure will help to ensure that benefits are felt throughout the country. In my constituency, we are seeing the investment by SSEN in housing that will ultimately be available for social rent. And we also need to invest in jobs and skills too like at UHI Northwester as I talked about earlier. I know not everyone is in favor of energy projects at the scale being proposed and the views of communities are important and must be taken on board in the consenting process. But for developers and for those who are opposing these projects, the last thing we need is for long limbo periods where consenting hangs in the balance, causing distress to communities and risking investment from developers. The consenting process must reflect the changing landscape that we are operating in and ensure that community voices are heard and that community communities benefit from development when those developments are appropriate. We do have a tremendous opportunity in front of us, but to fully realize those opportunities will require collaboration between governments and with communities. Thank you. >> I call Emma Rodic to be followed by Jenny Mento. Six minutes, please. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Opportunity seems to be the most important word in today's motion. It is a huge opportunity, but I am very much afraid that thanks to UK energy policy, when we look back on the renewables boom in Scotland, it is going to be hard to ignore the opportunity lost. There can be lasting benefit to local communities, more jobs, legacy housing developments, actual ownership of assets which can continue to bring in energy and income for those areas long term. As there can be these things, I believe that there must be these things. And when we're in the situation where Scotland is generating so much energy, we in the Highlands should not be struggling to pay our energy bills. We can get to a situation where it's possible to notice cheaper renewable energy generation when you read your energy bill rather than the unaffordable prices that we currently see tied to gas prices. We cannot keep pretending that little pots of money here and there is good enough. Scotland has the natural resources to generate green energy. We have the knowledge to operate developments and we have the innovation to keep on creating better ways to do and to store this. What we do not have is a fair regulatory and legal framework that puts the communities hosting these developments and living in cold homes first. Now, the ScotWind Fund is something that I am really looking forward to seeing the details of, but I'm really clear that ownership is key. Jillian Martin did make progress in the last session, but I do feel that we have to force the issue. We could take a more active role in ensuring that there are opportunities not just for those community organizations who already have the expertise and the capital behind them to push their way in but for all the communities who are in a position to take ownership of local generation and there are are other areas that we could put more effort into. Scottish Land and Estates has sent a briefing around MSPs ahead of this debate and one of the things that they're calling for is colllocation of energy development and other economic activity. One of the examples that they've given is anorobic digestion located by farms. Now I've seen the benefits that this can bring gas production and the byproducts used to help nearby farmers who might also then be starting the process again by providing energy crops. I visited biogen at tornin over the summer and I previously got to see how fern farm is benefiting from the nearby acorn plant. Collocation is entirely possible and it's a way to gain the trust and involvement of at least some of those in the communities hosting these developments. Some of the places that I went out to see over my time as a Highlands and Islands MSP that stick with me the most are energy related because it really makes a huge difference when communities have ownership. the Asent Croffters becoming experts in hydro, the local turbines in Yell and Rousey providing a constant source of income for those communities who can then use that to build affordable housing for key workers and those farms who are literally being a circular economy by working alongside local whiskey distillers and anorobic digesttors. Rural areas know how to make land work for lots of different things at once. We do this every day, but grid constraints and rarely updated regulations are strangling process and our ambition for the UK should be bigger than occasional funneling of public money to energy companies who are already making staggering profits rather than changing the system that allows them to do this while thousands of people desperately reach out to citizens advice or to MSPs because every time they turn on the heating all they can think of is the debt that they're acrewing. Now, the Highlands has a lot going on right now. Over the years, I've been very impressed with the work that is going on at the port of Ardisier under Javventus. From those before and after vistas that I've managed to see on my own visits to hearing of the individual stories about highquality employment, it's very inspiring, very modern and brandy, and port workers take pride in the changes that have already been made as well as the opportunity that lies ahead. I was very pleased that Hannah Mary Goodlad was able to visit the port over the summer recess. I can't overestimate the importance of this place, not just to the local area, but also to Scotland's energy resilience and economy. While there have been many UK government decisions that have had a real negative impact on the communities that I represent in Inesse and Ner, I can't recall one like the blocking of the Mingyang investment in Ardisier coming up as much as it did on the doorstep ahead of this year's election. People in my constituency really understand the importance and the value of local jobs. I hope that a way forward can be found with the new UK government as this has huge potential. As for the bigger picture, I hold little hope that the right action will ever be taken by a UK government. And I don't say that because I believe there's a a competence issue. It's it's a matter of interests. That is, they're not interested. Scotland is producing lots of energy and the UK is benefiting. Scottish people should be benefiting. Our communities should be rich, owning their own developments, and nobody should be unable to afford to heat their home. But whether a prime minister is unable to look past Greater London or past Manchester, the result is the same for Inesse. We need to be able to benefit from what we have, we need to align legislation with our goals, and we need power over energy. Thank you. Thank thank you presiding officer. I moved to Arg Island but 15 years ago as an east coaster. The west coast of Scotland has always been a draw for me. Ekri Shalamara Agustier Agustinia history sea and landscape and people. These are all connected. As I said in my first speech in this chamber but could be the powerhouse of renewable energy in Scotland and I refer members to my register of interest. I have a personal investment in ISA energy community benefit society, owners of the ISA community wind turbine and I'm a member of ISA energy trust. Islands are full of gifted people who want to do their bit for energy generation. For example, Tyrie and Ia both have community wind turbines and solar arrays. Jura Jura's inver estate has hydro and solar schemes providing power to Jura Distillery and Mullen Iiona Community Trust have a community hydro scheme. Many of these have been supported by the Scottish government. These are all renewable energy schemes initiated by members of these island communities for the benefit of their communities, similar to what Donald uh Donald McKinnon was talking about. However, when discussing renewable energy, I am frustrated by the split between areas that are devolved and those that are reserved. I'm also frustrated by the way the charging system operates. As Emma Rodock has so eloquently said, people who live in our gallb experience some of the highest prices in the UK, but see the infrastructure generating power on their doorsteps flowing along the pylons which march across their landscape. Both of which my question yesterday highlighted and I thank the minister for his answers and also those to the left of me chuntering. I clearly pressed the right buttons for that reaction. Over the last five years, however, I have noticed a change in conversation that I'm having with my constituents around renewable energy. There has always been an understanding that renewable energy is required to reduce our reliance on fossil fuel, but their concerns are focused on what the benefit to their community, Argyle, but Scotland will be. And I agree much with what um Sammy Dickstra uh Dow Downey said regarding community benefit. One positive step that our S SNP government took last year relates to the repowering of wind farms. Argu being at the heart of this and as Christopher Leisk said, Forestry Land Scotland is piloting an opportunity for community organizations to develop onshore wind repowering projects on public land primarily managed by Forestry Land Scotland. And this will help communities move beyond receiving an annual community benefit payment to leaving a lasting legacy for future generations. And I look forward to engaging further with them to progress this. of course Jamie Lang >> taking an intervention but she also recognized there are a lot of communities across Scotland such as Dumpries and Galloway and East Lotheian that are very much invested and keen on nuclear energy and that it's time that her party and the Scottish government got rid of its student politicsesque obsession and opposition to nuclear power. >> I I thank Mr. Langden for his uh h intervention. Um my husband filmed in Chernobyl 10 years after Chernobyl happened. There is nothing that will change my mind with regards to the impact that nuclear energy can have on people that live in our precious world. [applause] I believe uh these plans illustrate that the Scottish government is doing what it can with the limited powers it has. But imagine what could be done with independence with all the powers to run an energy system that works for everyone in Scotland. So for example the power produced in our gallb but directly benefiting the people that live here. I am supportive of the calls that our power Scotland is making uh of the Scottish government to take a stake in all future offshore wind projects to generate public revenue to fund councils to invest in local renewable energy projects to generate local income. I believe this fits in with the public service reform. Give more local communities the chance to own energy projects and create secure well-paid jobs by building offshore wind manufacturing industry. Renewable parts in Loil Head is a major success story in this area. Wind turbines know I have got a bit to say. Wind turbines are a clear clear illustration that Scotland is harnessing the power of the wind to create green electricity. However, these turbines must be in the right place and our people who live in the communities impacted need to be listened to. And I note and agree with the points that Christopher Leisk made around community wealth building. And I also listen closely to Donald McKinnon's uh speech about community views on uh on uh renewable energy. And I've spent time listening to constituencies constituents about the proposed offshore development macker. I met yesterday with community councils of colony Iona and ISA who've all raised objections. Their objections cover the impact on landscape, seascape, cultural heritage, socioeconomic development of islands and biodiversity. They also raise concerns about the EIA and the evidence it contains. And I will quote briefly from one community council's objection. The community council wishes to be clear at the outset about this what this objection is and what it's not. It's not opposition to offshore wind and it's not a demand that these waters be left untouched. The principle is one of simple proportion. A development close to a stunning scenic pristine Atlantic inhabited coast must be modest and a vast development must stand far away. what has been applied for honors neither of these. In Bella Bathurst's book, The Lighthouse Stevensons, there's an interesting historical parallel to the building of these turbines. And I quote, "The board recorded only petitions of the government organizations and ship owners. The sailors who were most at risk from scary vo, the islanders, and the local fishermen stayed silent. Money and politics as usual shouted loudest. islanders, communities, their their voices must be heard and I've been swayed by some of their arguments which if I'm if I'm honest is not what I had expected. I wholeheartedly agree with the Scottish government's journey towards net zeal. However, communities impacted must be listened to. Simply consideration must be made of the impact on Ekri Shalamara Agashier Agugusta history, sea and landscape and people [applause] >> David Smith. >> Thank you deputies presided officer. So Scotland has some of the best nuclear engineers in the world. Yet we have an S SNP-led government that maintains a longstanding and absolute opposition to the construction of civilian nuclear power stations in Scotland. So the claim that Scotland has some of the best nuclear engine engineers in the world is a bold claim. All right, so let's qualify that. In the north we've had the short test facility Vulcan and the Dune fast reactor. Both these sites have played a major role in supporting local economies of throne and kithnet for decades. But more than that, these sites have developed a workforce at the cutting edge cutting edge of nuclear innovation and technologies. This workforce is highly skilled, highly trained, take safety and security incredibly seriously, and we should all acknowledge what a credit they are to Scotland. But they all being let down by a Scottish government that does not value their work. I was a senior commissioning engineer working for the doside test organization at Baron Furnace in 2013 2014 commissioning the nuclear reactor on the street port 3. During the commissioning a team of engineers came down from the to assist. They brought their expertise, their excellent work work ethic, their excellent huber to the project and they were an absolute pleasure to work alongside. However, more and more of our nuclear engineering excellence is leaving Scotland to find employment elsewhere. It is estimated that approximately 1,200 highly skilled and excellent Scottish nuclear engineers are now working on the Hley Sea project because they cannot find a job in Scotland. If we move west, we have His Majesty's naval base on the Clyde. His Majesty's naval base is the is the baseport for all UK submarines maintained and operated by the Royal Navy and civilian staff working side by side. Naval nuclear reactors were alongside a government by all the same rules and regulations as civilian nuclear reactors and they have an outstanding safety record. Maintaining the UK's nuclear deterrent is a tremendous feat of engineering and it is further evidence of the knowledge and skills base we have in Scotland. Just a little further south, we have Hunter, another nuclear site being decommissioned and a highly skilled workforce whose jobs are not valued by the Scottish government. I certainly will. >> Heather Anderson, sorry, presiding officer, it just took me a second to process what you were saying. We've heard nothing but bad news about leaks in Faz Lane. So to sit stand there and say there's an excellent safety record, you're obviously not reading any of the investigative journalism that's going on about the state of that base and the maintenance of those submarines which is putting everybody near them at risk. [applause] >> David Smith. >> Right. For the members's benefit, I've operated nuclear submarines out of FS Lane. I've been a nuclear reactor operator. I've been a maintainer. I've written the safety cases. and what you're talking about are incidents. They're not accidents. There's often an over reporting and a lot of people don't understand what is actually going on. If there's a specific incident you want to talk about, I'll quite happily sit down and talk you through exactly what's happened. There's been no primary coolant leaks at fans lane. It will be some other type of water. Everything gets reported if they've got a very very high level of safety. And the over it's almost over reporting because people pick up on things that they don't necessarily understand. Now I'll carry on. A little further south we have Hunter another nuc another nuclear site under undergoing decommissioning and a highly skilled workforce whose jobs are not valued by the Scottish government. Then to the east we have Torres. Torres is still operating but it's coming to the end of the but but it's coming to the end of its life. Without a replacement to Toronto, the local economy in Dumbar and the surrounding areas will really struggle. >> It should therefore come as no surprise that East Loian Council passed a motion in August 2025 supporting new nuclear atl >> if you wish to make an intervention could you press the button. It's for the official report so they know exactly who's about to speak. Paul >> Mlelen I think it's important I think I mentioned Mr. Roford I've engaged with with Torres on a number of issues. It's the same station manager was at Hunderson in terms of that. So there's already work in terms of replacing these jobs but when I mentioned in my speech there already 1500 green jobs in East London and that is beginning to grow. So and I mentioned obviously before about the red ticker and about particularly net stupid zero that net stupid zero you call presents 1500 green jobs in East London. So there is a balance in terms of the jobs are being replaced in terms of that. So please acknowledge the 1500 green energy jobs, renewable jobs that are already in place in Solen because there are people that live and work in and contribute to East that point [applause] >> David Smith. >> Now thank you for your intervention. I'm talking I'm speaking solely on the value of the nuclear industry in Scotland. Um I'm not going to deviate away from speaking about that. That's part of a wider debate. >> So, >> yeah. >> It should therefore come as no surprise that East Loian Council passed the motion in August 2025 to support new nuclear. However, it seems to have made no impact on the position of this government. So I personally know a young man who is currently completing a nuclear is currently completing an electrical engineer apprenticeship. He's been forced to travel to Cfield in Cumbria each week for work due to a lack of opportunities in Scotland. I've taken two. I'm not going to take another one just now. I'll come back. I personally know another young man who has recently graduated from Glasgow University after complet completing a degree in physics. He would love a job in the nuclear sector. However, instead he's now been forced to working in the financial sector due to the lack of nuclear engineering opportunities in Scotland. Many of the difficulties faced by our young workforce in Scotland could be addressed by the Scottish government backing new nuclear. In recent years, England has generated for uh 43,000 new jobs in nuclear well-paid, highly skilled long-term jobs. If the Scottish government was truly progressive and truly committed to growth, regeneration, energy security, it would back new nuclear. Indeed, if Scotland was able to to keep pace with England, there would be an additional 5,000 of these jobs available for Scottish workers in Scotland. Let's move on to nuclear waste. The United Kingdom is the best part of the world for reprocessing and storing nuclear waste. It's another bold claim, but let me explain why. All nuclear waste in the UK is reprocessed at Cfield, but Ciffield also reprocesses waste for a lot of other countries. Countries like Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Australia, and the Netherlands. All very technologically advanced countries. all of whom have put their trust and faith in the United Kingdom. >> We're doing well over time, so you will need to come to a conclusion. >> Okay, I'll bring it to a close. So, we have some of the best nuclear engineers in the world and when we're good when we're this good at doing something, especially something that contributes so much to our society, we should keep doing it and we should keep and we should back new nuclear. I urgently encourage the government to reconsider their position and back new nuclear. >> Heather Anderson. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Um I refer to my register of members interests and declare I'm a serving council on Dundy City Council. Presiding officer, the city of Dundee is perfectly poised to support and benefit from Scotland's green energy revolution. With a history of innovation in industry combined with our educational institutions, the University of Dundee, Alberte University, and Dundian Angus College, Dundy is ensuring that the future workforce is ready and capable of meeting the challenge of this new energy landscape. Our location on the fth of Tay gives us direct access to the North Sea and the port of Dundee is ideally located for offshore wind repair and support and North Sea repair and eventual decommissioning. Fourth ports have invested4 million pounds to build their new renewables hub. This is Scotland's first purpose-built offshore wind marshalling and assembly facility. And thanks to this investment, we've been selected as the pre-installation and marshalling harbor for the Inch Cape project. Inshape is just up the coast and these 72 Vesta wind turbines are some of the tallest in the world. I'd just like to point out to the chamber that they're bigger than adult Dundee multi, but the kit in Dundee can handle them. >> I'll take an intervention. Malcolm offered >> the me the member just commented with pride on the scale and size of the turbines around the T-side. How's the member feel about the fact not a single blade is made in Scotland? >> Heather Anderson. >> Thank you. Um I would absolutely welcome the fact we were making the blades in Scotland. That's why I want to invest in renewable energy development and supply chain which is what I'm talking about. The project at incape will meet 10% of the Scottish government's 11 gawatt offshore wind ambition for 2030 and it will generate sufficient energy to heat half of the homes in Scotland. Just think about that. Well, presiding officer Dundian Angus College did think about that and they never miss a trick. So in May they signed a memorandum of understanding with Inscape to ensure that their students at the college could access hands-on training and have a clear pathway to a career in offshore wind. That's about real young people in Dundee getting the best skills training and matching up the skills you need to be a mechanic with the skills you need to fix a turbine. My message is clear and I'm sure reform will agree with this. Dinner tow your turbines to Norway for repair. deliver them at Dundee and we'll fix them. Presiding officer, earlier this summer, I was lucky enough to join a number of other MSPs in visiting Scotland's largest offshore wind farm at Sea Green, just 17 miles out from Montroseport. Seag Green is one of the deepest fixed bottom wind farms in the world. People come from all over the world to understand the engineering and see what SSE are doing. These 114 turbines produce enough power to heat the equivalent of 23 of the homes in Scotland. It's astonishing technology. Scotland is once again showing the ingenuity and using their natural resources and skills to energy to generate the energy. Tackling climate change is no longer a technical problem. It's a political problem. and presiding officer, I am heartened that our program for government is clear about our preferred direction of travel. Scotland's economy grew by 68.5% in real terms between 1990 and 2024. And at the same time, we cut greenhouse gas emissions in half, reaching net zero and growing a thriving green economy go hand in hand. In 2025, we generated enough renewable energy to each 16.5 million homes for a year. The problem here is not ingenuity, skills, capacity. The problem here is distribution. I'm not taking an intervention, Mr. Massie. Sorry. We're acting to accelerate on the delivery of offshore renewables, which will genuinely strengthen our energy resilience. The benefits of the green economy to Scotland are enormous. The CBI estimates that net zero related industries are already worth over 10 billion to the Scottish economy and already support 100,000 jobs. And we will publish a refreshed energy strategy. It's been referred to a number of times today. We're all looking forward to seeing it. And we will establish a Scotland Wealth Fund by the end of this parliament to ensure the public benefit from our renewables. That has been echoed again and again today. All of us want more community ownership and more benefits for the people of Scotland. But presiding officer, there is a snag. All of that energy from Sea Green makes landfall at Montrose. And it doesn't go to the Scottish grid because we don't have one. It goes to the national grid. And the National Grid's great grid upgrade is built as an opportunity to, as they say, move clean power from where it is generated to where it is needed. Well, when you look at their maps, and I've got a few here, it's absolutely clear where it is generated here, and it's crystal clear where it is going. And that's not here. And most glingly of all, for the people who never ever wanted to leave the European Union, I'll finish this sentence. Most glowingly of all, it's being extracted south and then exported to Europe. It's not being exported to Europe by Scotland. It's being exported by to Europe by the UK. black there that you >> Duncan Massi. >> Oh, thank you. It sounded there that that you didn't appreciate that the power was exported and you would like to stop the exports of of electricity down to England. Is is that what you're saying? >> Heather Anderson and Miss Anderson, um we're already into extra time, so you you won't be able to take any further interventions. >> Okay. Um I absolutely would love to export the energy. We are going to be an exporter. We just don't get the benefit at the moment. I would like us to get the money from the extraction of our natural resources because we don't have any power over own our own energy. We can't do a thing about any of that. Scotland is one of the national energy systems operators 11 regions. NISO aren't in any way confused or ambivalent about Scotland's enormous energy wealth. It's just not their job to ensure that the people of Scotland benefit from it. The end result is a family in Dundee before they use a single unit of electricity has to pay an extra £55 in standing charges more than a family in London. That's what happens when you don't have power over your own energy. And everyone in this chamber will be hearing from constituents who are increasingly frustrated by what they regard as a ripoff. They regard it as a ripoff because it is. They are genuinely asking why our renewable energy is not benefiting them or their communities. I will be concluding presiding officer. They can see the turbines and they can see the pylon pylons. They just can't see the benefit. And that's why the demand for powers over the extraction of our natural resources, our energy have to be heard and answered. Scotland has an enormous economic advantage. We are an energyrich nation again and this time we need the powers over energy to ensure that this time the people of Scotland benefit. History must not repeat itself. And presiding officer, I'd be delighted if the minister would consider a visit to the port of Dundee in the coming weeks. Thank you, [applause] >> Monica Lennon. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I'm really glad that we are debating Scotland's energy opportunity and as I sit and listen to the debate, it feels that the parliament I rejoined a week ago does feel and think quite different to the one I left before the election. And while most of us understand that the climate crisis is becoming more serious by the day, it does feel like climate denial has crept into the chamber. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong because we must be in no doubt that the climate crisis is an existential threat to our health, to our living standards, and to our communities. And we do need a new energy future that will help us tackle the climate crisis. And I am optimistic about the economic opportunities that that will bring. But the question in my mind is who owns that future and who will benefit. Hundreds of my Glasgow constituents have been in touch through the our power campaign and they are fed up watching private companies and overseas investors get richer while Scots miss out. As they put it, we have the wind, we have the workers, but we lack ownership. So they are demanding more public ownership, more community wealth building and secure well-paid jobs through a proper offshore wind manufacturing industry. And they are right and I will take the intervention. >> Jamie Langan taking my intervention. But in the year that we have seen BP saying it's going to exit the North Sea, is it not incredibly important that we are open and embracing a private capital investment into our energy market as well as broader solutions? Monica Lennon, >> I was going to come on to talk about big oil and gas and the eye watering profits they continue to make and how we need to use some of that to fun transition, but I'll I'll come on to that in a moment or two. I think what is evident is Scotland in many ways is worldleading in offshore wind and has abundant renewable resources. We've heard from the minister, we are creating thousands of good jobs. We are strengthening our energy security and we're building an economy that's fit for the future. But we need to go further and we need to to to go faster because climate change is already causing havoc. Something I don't think reform and and the conservatives I've mentioned today from the wildfires and the korms and excess deaths from heat to the devastating loss of life from climate impacts in Nepole. Meanwhile, it's workers and communities that are paying the price while big oil and gas continue to make billions and record profits. So, we need those profiteeers, and I hope the members over the the the benches agree with me. We need those profiters to pay more tax and contribute more to the just transition. They're shaking their heads. Perhaps they don't agree because that will help those workers who are facing redundancy because of the geology of the North Sea. I'm going to make some progress. I only have three minutes. Um, now I don't know if Rosebank and Jack do ultimately be approved, but I do know this. We cannot drill our way to lower energy bills, to long-term jobs and energy security or out of the climate crisis. But I do know we need to accelerate the just transition. And that must include trade unions at the table. I know we don't all agree or believe in trade unions, but we need to have the trade unions at the table. Investment in skills, domestic manufacturing, insulating homes, and accelerating election. >> The member cannot take an intervention because she's already an additional time. So, she cannot take an intervention. >> I was only allocating minutes. I'll just try and conclude very quickly. Ping officer, we need democratic control of our energy wealth alongside properly resourced planning. So I want to pay tribute to campaigners including across Glasgow and especially to our young people who are demanding action and they understand international climate justice is not a weakness, it is a strength and I'm pleased the minister has pledged to work constructively with MPs but also with the UK government because we should cooperate more. And I do want to hear a bit more precision around dates for the Scotland Wealth Fund and also for that long- aaited energy strategy. In conclusion, presiding officer, Scotland can meet the climate challenge if we have the right strategy and plans. We can meet the moment in terms of an energy future. But we need to shift the power from multinational profiters and distant investors to our workers, communities, and the Scottish public. Because it's not only about changing how we generate energy, it's about changing who has power in our economy and our democracy. So Scotland has the natural resources. We have the workers. We have the opportunities. What we need now is the political will, the action from the Scottish government to put that power and opportunity into the hands of the Scottish people. Thank you. >> Lloyd Melville. >> Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. For more than half a century, Scotland and Norway have looked across the same sea at the same extraordinary natural wealth. Both of us discovered oil. Both saw billions generated from beneath the North Sea, but only one was able to fully decide what happened to that wealth. Norway has invested in a fund for future generations. But under Westminster, Scotland could not. Now, the lesson is simple. Possessing extraordinary natural wealth is not enough. The key test is how it is used. And Scotland faces that test yet again. This time the wealth is not just treasure buried beneath our feet. It is blowing over our hills and moving through our seas. Last week, Professor Der Helm told Parliament that Scotland's peak electricity demand is around 5 gawatt while our strategy is for around 20 gawatt of additional renewable capacity. Therefore, much of what we generate will be exported. So, the question is, who will own Scotland's energy? Who will profit from it? And where will that wealth go? No, thank you. Presiding officer, just off the Angus coast, no thank you. Just off the Angus coast, CE Green is already capable of generating enough electricity for more than 1.6 million homes. Inch Cape is under construction just 15 kilometers from the Angus coast and in our county a new offshore skills academy will help train the workforce those industries need. That is what it looks like when an energy opportunity becomes an economic one. Not just turbines in Scottish waters but skills here, supply chains here and communities benefiting here. Yes, >> Jamie Lankan. Can I thank the member for taking my intervention? But he's talked about exporting energy as if it's a dirty word. He's talking about people being trained for the energy industry. But is this just for domestic use? He doesn't want us having an export industry. Is is this what I'm taking from S&P policy here? >> Lloyd Melville. >> Mr. Langan is unfortunately incorrect. I am a big proponent of exporting electricity. What I would like is for us to receive the financial benefit from that which we are currently not. and on investment which is my next point. Um Lord offer do you want to come in on you go >> Mr. Mal, well, I wasn't sure where you're going with that. I was just going to ask a question. I applaud I was the export minister. I applaud exports. The question is how who's going to buy this at the right price when the expense of getting it from Northern Scotland to Europe is going to be extortionate. At the moment, the expense is covered across 70 million people in the UK. The whole grid system, distribution system, is covered by 70 million people. If you make that covered only by five and a half million people, you'll have the abundant but most expensive energy in the world. Who's going to buy that? >> Lloyds Melville. >> There is enormous demand for clean green electricity that Scotland will be well placed to export across Europe when we are an independent country. Now on investment, which I was coming to before Lord Offford came in, this place does not have the final say. And I want to note a point that Emirodic put on the parliamentary record. 1.5 billion pounds of investment by Mingyang was blocked. 1,500 jobs moved elsewhere. Now, Deputy Presiding Officer, of course, national security must be taken seriously. But what makes that pill harder to swallow is that the very same UK government returns from China boasting about Chinese investment elsewhere in Britain. They welcomed it in Liverpool. They have welcomed it in London. open for business, but not when business is coming to Scotland. And we've seen that again in the broken promises on Grangemouth. While some people make empty promises for an airman cloak, this parliament must fulfill the promise of Scotland's energy future because we do have something enormously valuable to build from. For 50 years, the North Sea has built worldclass engineering, subsea, and offshore expertise here. And that expertise is an inheritance too. >> Will the member take? >> I will. >> Michelle Campbell, >> thank you very much for taking my intervention in relation to skills. I think something that's a critical part that's not been part of this debate is talking about decommissioning and jobs that are required within that sector as well. This is welcomed across site groups amongst major stakeholders CPG in the last session h and through the scores committee which is the councils and stakeholders as well. There is an a decrying of needing to find jobs, good jobs, wellskilled jobs. Does the member agree with me that this is something that should be recognized and also celebrated? Thank you, >> Lloyd Melville. >> Absolutely. And she has put that point so eloquently on the record and I thank her for it. [snorts] We must invest to turn the foundation of those jobs into the foundation of the next energy industry. We can't watch one industry decline while waiting for another to arrive. We've got to build the bridge between them. And I want to agree with Christopher Leisk uh who is not in his place uh who was talking about Scotland. The first Scotland leasing rounds raised over750 million pounds. And if we have learned anything from Norway, it is that some of today's windfall should be invested in a future generations fund. And that is why I am pleased to hear the government has committed to doing just that. Because money from Scotland's energy shouldn't just sit on a balance sheet. It should help us build industry here in Scotland. Presiding officer, future Scotland proceeds should help us invest in Scottish wind turbine manufacturing, supply chains, and the industrial capacity that allows us to keep more of the value that we create. And that wealth should still be working for Scotland decades from now. This cannot simply be the North Sea oil story, but with wind turbines instead of rigs. It is not enough for the wind to be ours if the factories are elsewhere. It is not enough for the power to be generated here if the jobs, the investment, and the profits flow elsewhere. We have got to capture the value as well as produce the power. Because presiding officer Scotland has been here before, we know what it means to possess extraordinary natural wealth and to watch too much of its value leave our shores. This time >> the member cannot take an intervention as is there an extra time. >> I apologize Mr. Langan. >> This time that wealth must leave something lasting behind in the industries we build in the skills we pass on and in the wealth we preserve for the generations yet to come. Thank you. [applause] >> We now move on to the closing speeches. I call on Sani Dystra Downey up to five minutes. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last night, I watched the people's emergency briefing for the second time. And by the way, I would urge any member in this chamber who hasn't seen it um to seek out an opportunity to see a viewing near you. It is a challenging watch for sure, but it's a vital one, especially for anyone who's involved in politics. But one of the key positive takeaways at the end of that film is that we do have an extraordinary natural advantage when it comes to renewable energy. And we've heard a lot about that in the chamber today. We should be using that advantage by creating our re renewable energy generating capacity and getting community benefits right is an important part of that. But we also need to drive down the demand for oil and gas by phasing out fossil fuel technology and phasing in clean technology and doing so faster. As the film points out, if for example we had decarbonized our domestic heating systems earlier, then households would have saved huge amounts of money on bills when inflation went through the roof in the postcoid years. If we are serious about reducing our dependence on oil and gas, we need to make it easier for people and businesses to electrify their heating systems, their transport systems, and other parts of everyday life and use less energy through an upscaling of insulation and other measures that stop wasting energy that we cannot afford to waste. Now, some members focused their remarks on the opportunities of nuclear and a proper energy mix is critical to increasing the volume of electricity needed. And while a focus should be no, not just now and while a focus should be on clean renewables, we should take an evidence-led approach to the potential of small modular reactors as part of that mix. I am pleased to hear the minister say that the Scottish government will engage constructively with the UK government on Scotland's energy future. And I'm also grateful to the minister for accepting my amendment on strengthening community benefits and my colleagues and I look forward to working with him on this. Christopher Lisk rightly referenced the importance of ensuring that there is no further delay to the government's energy strategy. I'm glad he agrees agrees with me that the proposed community benefit levels are insufficient and I agree with him that both community ownership and community benefits have a role to play in empowering communities as part of the renewables transformation. As for some of the other contributions, the fact that we are still talking about new oil and gas licenses shows that we simply haven't moved fast enough in reducing our demand for fossil fuels. Deputy designing officer, the benefits of Scotland's just energy transformation cannot simply be measured in gigawatts generated, in turbines constructed, or investments announced. This should instead be measured in whether people have secure and well-paid jobs, whether their homes are warmer and cheaper to heat, whether we are genuinely reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, and whether communities hosting crucial renewable energy infrastructure are stronger because of it. Scotland's green clean energy ambitions must be built on pragmatism as much as principle, and they must leave no community behind. Thank you. I call James Adams up to six minutes. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I refer members to my register of interest where I'm a serving counselor in Alberta. Uh the oil and gas industry is vital to the northeast region and I've always been clear that I intend to champion the sector and the people who work in it. I therefore welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and I do find myself agreeing with points from across the chamber this afternoon. Opposition to new oil and gas licenses has already cost thousands of jobs and billions of pounds in lost revenue. And Scotland is being put at risk by this approach. A thousand jobs a months are being lost in Scotland's oil and gas industry for how the Northeast region in Scotland as a whole misses out in potential revenue that could have supported public services and vital infrastructure. Those job loss figures represent skilled workers and businesses across the northeast as well as the wider supply chain that supports the industry. We should be asking how we retain and make use of these skills as our energy system changes rather than creating the conditions in which investment and employment move elsewhere. This is particularly important because the transition away from fossil fuels will not open and happen overnight. The reality is that Scotland and the United Kingdom will continue to need oil and gas even though we expand renewables. Pretending otherwise is a waste of time. The choice is not between oil and gas or renewables but a choice between a balanced managed transition that protects workers, strengthens energy security or a reckless transition that undermines communities and weakens Scotland's economy. Approving Jack Dawn Rosebank is not a radical proposal. It is basic common sense and should hop and now happen now and I do hope we're going to find out about that in the next week or so. These projects would support skilled employment, sustain local supply chains and provide greater certainty for investors in the North Sea. Jack on Rosebound could generate around 10.8 billion in revenue if approved. Every year of delay damages confidence and it sends the wrong messages to companies that otherwise could be investing in Scottish jobs and Scottish communities. >> The demand for oil and gas will continue for many years to come. As it will, it is far better that we meet demand from our own resources rather than relying more heavily uh than imports from overseas which leaves households and businesses more exposed to global price shocks. >> On that point, >> I will. Yes, >> David Barrett. >> Thank you for accepting the intervention. Scotland has less than 1 gawatt of installed pump storage capacity, but over 10 gawatt of identified capacity in the pipeline. That is twice Scotland's peak demand and four times Scotland's average demand, but development of these schemes are too slow. Do you agree that pump storage should at least be a larger part of the mix? >> James Adams? >> Yes, I do. Thank you for the intervention. Scotland has considerable renewable resources, a highly skilled workforce, and decades of experience in the energy sector. While I agree that Scotland's energy trans uh transformation presents a significant opportunity, if we are going to make the most of that opportunity, we need to be realistic about the challenges we face. That brings me uh to a part of Liam Ker's amendment, the question of nuclear energy. The Scottish government currently has a presumption against any new nuclear development, but this uh position should be reconsidered. Nuclear is already an established source of lowcarbon electricity and developments in small modular reactor technology mean that there is a case for considering what role these technologies might play in Scotland's energy future. Yeah, >> that does not mean that every proposed nuclear project should automatically be approved, but the Scottish government should be prepared to examine the evidence rather than ruling out a technology in advance. But energy security has become much more important consideration in recent years and the disruption to the European energy markets following Russia's invasion of Ukraine demonstrated the risks that can arise when countries become too dependent on sources of imported energy. Scotland is fortunate to have substantial domestic energy resources and failing to invest in a diverse energy mix will have an adverse effect on our energy security. The Scottish government claimed that 500 million pounds just transition fund will create jobs in the northeast of Scotland to help workers move from jobs in the fossil fuel sector to jobs and green energy. However, the reality is that this does not come close to offsetting the job losses that are being felt across the region at the moment. Protecting jobs and securing revenue and bolstering our energy security are essential to Scotland's economic future and to a credible transition that works for the whole of Scotland. The Scottish Conservatives, we will continue to make the case for an energy policy rooted in jobs, security, and common sense. Then we urge the Scottish government to publish a new energy strategy which abandons its presumption against oil and gas. It was announced this week that 1.9 million pounds of investment from the just transition fund is being invested in Aberine which is set to become home to Scotland's first electrolyer assembly facility. This will create up to 12 jobs and safeguard a further 11 which is welcome but it is not enough and it does nothing to ease the concerns of workers and their families across the northeast and Scotland. You know, some may be willing to turn their backs on the Northeast and our vital oil and gas industry, but we and the Conservatives will not. We'll continue to stand up for Scotland, the oil and gas industry. >> I'm literally just finishing my last sentence. Um, you know, we will continue to stand up for the oil and gas industry and the workers and the communities that depend upon it across the northeast of Scotland. >> Iris Dwayne up to five minutes. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'd like to thank the minister for his collegiate approach to this. Also to thank Daniel Johnson for what was a very interesting speech. Uh the subject of today's debate could not be more of an important one to the constituents that we serve. Like Monica, hundreds of my constituents have recently been in touch to speak about how they feel their energy isn't serving them. And is it any surprise? Almost 30% of households are in fuel poverty. Half of these are in extreme fuel poverty. At one in three households, this is not an exception, but it has become the rule. Despite being by far the most energy rich nation in the United Kingdom, we are by far the most fuel poor. Now, I hope members will forgive me, but I will use my opportunity in closing to expand this debate, not on what is at the table, but on what should be at earliest convenience. These numbers are quite old now coming from 2024 and I sought further numbers from information from Citizen Vice Scotland and they believe the numbers are set to increase again. But these aren't just numbers. Too often in these roles we find ourselves balancing books, evaluating spreadsheets and forgetting who and what stands behind them. Hundreds of thousands of households, especially in our rural areas, are bracing themselves for months of cold and damp. For far too many, the basic right to a warm home is too far away from their lived reality. This is children shivering whilst they are trying to sleep. This is our pensioners confined to one room because it is all they can afford to heat. This is young workers making their way back home from work, choosing between whether they're going to eat or heat. In fact, colleagues, not too long ago, those statistics included myself in my single glazed flat that I rent, often waking up to the to the sight of my own breath in the winter months to a temperature as low as 11° inside to the great detriment to mine and my flatmate health. >> Now, I may be lucky enough to now sit at the heart of power for the next 5 years, but the one in three people outside of this chamber who continue to live in fuel poverty often don't get the opportunity to be heard. I spoke during the election about the need to bring forward an upgraded heat in buildings bill to take over from the government's previous half-hearted attempt. So, let today's debate be the starting gun for what could be a swift and resolute race to the finish line where everybody gets a warm home. Let this be the first step to a better future. A truly transformative energy agenda will include a heating buildings bill that isn't just ambitious targets, but a clear delivery mechanism, actual meaningful standards, and triggers that clearly lay out when buildings must be upgraded. It is well and good to set targets, but what exactly is the point when the government misses them and our constituents suffer? As my colleague Christopher has already argued to the chamber earlier, we must also stand absolutely firmly by the side of communities and unashameably by community and public shared energy ownership. What is the point in living in a land so energy rich if those riches aren't shared among the masses? Who does our energy wealth belong to if not the workingclass men and women of this land? As the minister has previously said, we cannot let the robbery of Scotland's energy wealth to happen for a second time. Whilst we continue to fawn over our the wealth of our northern neighbor, politicians happily sold it down the river 50 years ago. Let's together stop that from happening again. Today we are proposing setting up a Scotland Wealth Fund seeded with the 30 million from the Scotland leasing options. That is the firing shot. The first step on what shouldn't be a complex path to a warmer future. Scotland's energy wealth must be in Scotland's hand, not gambled within faceless international corporation corporations. This could unlock hundreds of millions of pounds for our struggling communities and local governments to invest in our well-being. I hope today the chamber will join me in firing that starting pistol and I hope to see members vote for the Scottish Greens amendment. Thank you, >> Duncan Massie. Up to seven minutes. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Um, look, it's been an interesting debate, but a bit of a cut and paste from the last time we debated energy. Um, I think there's maybe a slight increase in the grow of energy reality, but not perhaps that much. um particularly disappointed that Kate Campbell and uh Lloyd Neville didn't seem to really grasp uh the overall view from Der Helms and his excellent presentation that he meant to he made to the energy committee. I think it was kind of cherrypicked but I would urge everyone in the uh in the chamber to seek out the presentation and give it a view. It was really excellent. Um because I reiterate the simple reality much of what deer said that across Scotland, across the UK and indeed across most of Europe. >> Uh not right now, Kate. Thanks. Um um and indeed much of Europe, our energy ser energy system is simply not working. In Scotland and the UK, we have some of the highest energy prices in the world. that's causing huge cost of living challenges and of course driving huge damage to all our industries and many businesses. We have a growing reliance on imported energy particularly via LG tankers and also via French interconnectors and we have a fragile and overstretched grid. It's struggling to provide enough energy for growth opportunities like AI and that's even as we de-industrialize and are reducing our energy usage. And we are increasingly getting close to blackouts. And this is only going to get worse, especially in Scotland where we are relying on two conventional plants for power, both of which are forecast to close in the 2030s. And why are our costs so high? It is true that Europe has a structural shortage of oil and gas, made worse obviously by conflict in Ukraine and Iran, and this is causing temporary price spikes. But the main underlying issue is that we've gone down a route prioritizing net zero above all else pushing intermittent renewables too far too quickly and with no understanding of the cost needed to under upgrade the underlying system. Um the direct cost of renewables are extremely high as we can see from CFDs. But the main problem is the huge system costs required to support intermittent power to supportion. >> Yes, it will now. Yes, >> Kate Campbell. uh thank you for taking the intervention. He said that the cost of renewables are high but and he said that myself and my colleague didn't understand what professor Helmer told us but he did say that nuclear is cost new nuclear is costing 16 billion pounds per gawatt while gas cost 500 million to1 billion. Does he accept that that is a fact? >> Duncan Marci. >> Yes. At that point he was talking about Hinckley Point and the the project that single project and he was making the point if we do nuclear we have to do multiple plants at the same time rather than one at a time. >> It's a no. All right. >> So I will ask members if they want to make an intervention to make it formally so it's on the record so the public can understand what the debate is. Duncan Massi >> I come back to my point huge costs and then the main cost is the system costs um because we need massive capacity you know two three times the capacity that we used to have we have this massive grid that we seem to think is just uh grows on unicorns and doesn't cost any money but it costs a huge amount of money with pylons and battery parks that are not wanted around most of the country and of course there's huge balancing costs and the system is not benefiting our communities as has been asked because it's not cheap, it's not homegrown, and it's not secure. And of course, this is actually doing nothing to reduce global emissions, which is all that counts because all we are doing is offshoring emissions to China and other large manufacturing countries around the world. Uh but I am glad that we are now talking starting to talk about the energy mix. Uh we have talked about more nuclear maintaining our oil and gas and with renewables as a compliment but let's talk about oil and gas first. We have a worldleading industry that is actually being crushed by deliberate policy choices and despite renewable investment as we heard it's still around 75% of primary energy in this country. Globally the figure is well above 80%. And we need to acknowledge that under all possible scenarios that the UK and Scotland will need this oil and gas for decades. Transport fuels, key chemicals in just about every product in this room is oil and gas. Vital for heating processes and industrial pro processes. And paradoxically, the more renewables we have, the more flexible gas backup we need. So we need to maximize the use of our own oil and gas resources rather than importing them from neighboring Norway or even further outfield. And we can do this. The North Sea has a strong and vital future if we choose it. Um we can use the gas as a key transition fuel aligning with long-term contracts as we used to do. So I call again for this parliament to become a vocal champion for the North oil and gas industry. not not negative like it has been in the past and not a fence sitter at best like it is now. Clear unambiguous support for Jack Doaw and Rosebank. Clear unambiguous support for new drilling and licenses. Calling for changes to UK laws if necessary because the benefits of a stronger UK oil and gas industry are enormous. continued jobs, major tax revenues, greater balance of payments, and of course, energy security with the opportunity to reduce imports and reduce costs. >> Yes, I would >> Lloyd Melville, >> I thank him for that, and I thank him for his generosity. He's talking about energy security. Does he recognize the official projections that even if new North Sea fields are developed, the UK's reliance on imported gas is set to rise from 55% today to more than 90% by 2050. That's even in a max production scenario. >> Duncan Massi, >> I think the max production scenario it doesn't take into account new investment. But my point would be that we can eliminate LNG LNG tankers and we can use gas from Norway as a balance. So I think in either way it is a great improvement to our security. And of course this decline has much wider repercussions. I visited Gemmouth's Worldscale petrochemical plant over the summer. I'm sure many people have. In terms of efficiency, it's a top tier plant, one of the best in Europe. Uh, but it's challenged with high costs from carbon taxes, high energy costs, and the decline of North Sea production is um is making sure that the amount of feed stock is increasing. It has to come from US. It's US ethane is coming as as a feed stock. And as North Sea decline increases, that percentage is going up. And ultimately over time, those high costs and the fact that we're reliant on US imports is going to threaten the future of the plant. Um, and we've talked about jobs, but I think the government is becoming increasingly desperate on the lack of renewables jobs coming through. And we've seen headlines this week about it because in terms of timing of jobs, number of jobs, location of jobs, and the pay of these jobs, they're just simply not on the same scale as the oil and gas industry. So, in conclusion, you know, if we want real economic growth, if we want jobs, if we want energy security, we need pragmatic energy policies. Ones that focus on cheap, abundant, reliable energy. One that is driven by reality, not wishful thinking. One that acknowledges our current failing system, which has driven the highest energy costs in the world. And one that gets the energy mix right. This is best delivered by maximizing oil and gas resources in the medium-term and transitioning to nuclearpowered system over the long term with renewables playing a complimentary role rather than a dominant one. Thank you very much, >> Paul Sweeney. Up to five minutes. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And as we draw this debate to a close, I want to reflect on a shared frustration that we've heard across the chamber today. The industrial opportunities that Scotland has already let slip through our fingers. And I'm minded with the economic history that's been relayed today or one of the great pivotal moments in our nation's economic history. that point in 1979 when the S&P voted with the Conservatives to bring down the Labor government and fundamentally changed the trajectory of Britain's North Sea oil and gas future. And uh it's important to remember that this was the point when British National Oil Corporation, the UK state company in the North Sea, was then destined for privatization in 1972. If we hadn't had that moment in history, we would have still had the UK equivalent of Stat Oil or Ecuinor today. So that's one of the great whatifs of our economic history in my view. And also when we look at the massive buildout of onshore and offshore wind, we see a stark failure in industrial strategy. We should look back to the 1980s as well for a tantalizing glimpse of what we lost. It was a Glasgow engineering firm Howins that pioneered some of the world's first commercial wind turbines, successfully exporting them from Ortney to the wind farms of California. We had the head start, the engineering brilliance and the manufacturing capacity. Yet a lack of sustained government backing saw that early advantage squandered and the industry drifted across the North Sea to Denmark during the 1990s. Though the recent announcement by Vestas to construct anel factory in leth earlier this year is massive for the country and most welcome. Today despite possessing a massive share of Europe's wind potential, we have too often imported the technology and exported the economic benefits. We leased our natural resources but wholly missed the industrial prize. We cannot afford to repeat that mistake again as we look to the next frontier of our energy future. Energy is the lifeblood of modern life as we have heard across the chamber today. The from the power driving heavy manufacturing to the electricity that boils our kettles. Yet amid global market turmoil, we must recognize that we are not powerless here in this parliament. Far too often we focus on multilateral glidlock across the UK or Europe while failing to unleash the powers held by central and local government right here in Scotland. The UK Labor government has put Scotland at the heart of its energy strategy committing billions in investment launching GB energy and upgrading our grid. Yes, happy to give way >> Lloyd Melville. >> Thank you. Um, how central is Scotland at the heart of the energy policy when virtually none of the promised jobs at GB Energy have actually materialized and not a single penny of the 200 million pounds that was promised for Grangemouth has actually been spent. >> Paul Sweeney, >> well, the member may be familiar with project management constraints, but it's important that it takes time to develop these massive projects. And of course, at least the company has been launched, unlike the Scottish government's commitment to launch a state energy company, which never materialized. So let's see how this develops and I hope that the member will fully support the scaling up of GB energy and unleashing the opportunities because to realize this vision the Scottish government needs to step up. It must speed up planning, work constructively with trade unions and industry, invest in skills and ensure that communities can share in our natural wealth. And to see what is possible when we match natural resources with industrial strategy, we should look to our own proud history both in Scotland or indeed in my city of Glasgow. It was there that James Watt developed a separate condenser. That was there where we turbocharged the first industrial revolution. And decades later, engineers like John Elder revolutionized marine propulsion in Scotland, unifi unifying ship building and engine building at the Fairfield works in government for the first time in human history. Yet Glasgow didn't just innovate in private enterprise. It led the world in municipal utilities as well. When private companies struggled to deliver its scale in the late 19th century, public initiatives stepped in. Under the guidance of figures like Lord Kelvin, the Glasgow Corporation took municipal control of electricity, establishing public generating stations and what could have remained a public a private luxury for private shareholders, become a public utility owned and used by all Glaswegians. So, as we transition to net zero, Glasgow once again has everything to give and everything to gain. Today, local companies like Star Refrigeration and Malen Group are developing groundbreaking large river source heat pumps. And a prime example of this is the B- neat pump. A pioneering bargebased heat pump. For years, extracting clean heat from rivers was hindered by the scarcity and high cost of prime riverside land. The B heat neat pump solves this ingeniously by floating the heat pump and abstraction equipment directly on the river, providing a modular solution to district heating. Supported by Scottish Enterprise, this concept has already been demonstrated on the river Clyde and Clyde Bank. And unlike the wind turbine roll out, this economic prize can be kept in Scotland. This floating technology could be deployed in dozens of cities, allowing urban centers to harness the ambient heat right on our doorsteps. The industrialization scarred our urban communities through the 1980s. But municipal energy generation offers a path to re-industrialize our country. By manufacturing these bargers here, our deep maritime heritage sustained by skilled ship builders on the cloud provides the exact workforce needed to construct this new infrastructure. So by establishing local municipal energy companies as the S&P Scottish government has often committed to do and expanding district heat networks, we can cut bills, create high-skilled jobs, reduce emissions and return the profits directly to local communities. It is one of the best examples I can think of of community wealth building in action. So I urge the parliament today to support the Labor amendment and work together to achieve the greener municipal and highly industrialized energy future we all need. I call Steven Gthans to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish government. Uh thank you deputy presiding officer. Um can I also thank um colleagues for their contributions in today's debate. I think overall it's been a rich debate. It's been a good debate. Um Daniel Johnson started the debate on we're seeking to do something difficult and he's right the transition is difficult and I think we should acknowledge that sometimes and I think that's why when we look at the progress that's been made over the past few years I think due credit to the engineers to the businesses to the researchers who have made so much of that possible and that's why like him I like to talk about what has happened that's not to say we don't have big challenges in theuture future. But I think sometimes we just need to stand still and acknowledge that work that's gone on. And he was right. But he's also right to talk about the need for cander and collegiality. And I've been glad to that that we have had an element of collegiality across the chamber um today. But that opportunity for renewables is now. It's delivering jobs right now. And that's why it was a little bit disappointing um to hear some of the remarks from reform and from Lord offered and these remarks about and I quote again net stupid zero I don't think help anybody when you're trying to have a discussion and debate about things that impact on people's jobs across um across all of our constituencies and I was quite struck by and and and and if and if and if if the good baron would like to challenge that I'll be happy to hear it. Malcolm offered >> these jobs in green energy. We know that OEU UK have said they're running at half the rate of North Sea oil and gas jobs and they're at half the salaries. They're also paid for by subsidies on people's bills. Are they actually real jobs? >> Steven Gton, do >> you know I do find it astonishing. I talked about the CBI report with 105,000 jobs. These are jobs that are paying for folks bills that bring in excellence that bring in expertise that will be that will benefit around the world. I'm going to come on to the Conservatives at a moment, but I'm going to say this for the and I don't want to embarrass Mr. care. But whereas I disagree with them, I think they're getting that balance right and the benefit that we see from that renewable sector who are groundbreaking, who are doing some amazing work in places like Aberdine and elsewhere. And we can disagree on policy, but those who are conducting that work deserve our support across this chamber regardless of where we can find our disagreements. And I have to say I find it quite striking from Lord Offford that he's denying his own government of which he was a member. Not briefly, not briefly at all. For three years he was a member of that government. Three years he was a member of that government and now he seeks to deny it. And I think the less we hear from Lord Offford the better for this particular debate. And actually on a more positive note if I can come to Mr. Mr. Lisk. Um, Mr. Lisk, I did say that I want to accept your motion today. I look forward to discussing that with you as with other colleagues as well. Um, I did mention issues like Tunuis and elsewhere in my speech as deliberate. We know that Tenuis, not least in Orcne where he lives, is having a very significant impact on the sector. It's stopping jobs and investment being delivered right in his home patch. and I can understand why he's concerned about that. Can I also say for the record, and this is very important, he asked me if I will sign off on an SA SS that doesn't deliver for Scotland. Well, first of all, I don't sign off on it, unfortunately. I wish I did. I wish we had more powers, but I will not endorse an SS that does not deliver for Scotland. And I hope that he feels reassured by that. Um, today I'm just coming on to to to Liam K. I'll take his intervention briefly, but I want to take as few interventions as I can because there were a lot of contributions. So, I'll give way briefly. >> William K, >> I'd just be keen to understand his position on the transmission charges that we've heard a lot about because transmission charges fund the building of more grid, which I think everyone accepts that we need. So, the member seems to want those companies to pay less, but someone else will have to pay for the grid upgrades. So, who does the minister think should pay more? Minister, look, I think there's a way of getting a more balanced um approach. I want to see a European approach. I want to see European alignment on this. I think there's an opportunity with the EU leader summit where electricity could be could be on on the market. But the fact that transmission charging is stopping development. It's stopping people getting into jobs. This isn't isn't a new debate. This is a debate that's been going on for years under Conservative and Labor administrations and something that we know is a challenge. But just further on Mr. K's point, can I say that I welcome his constructive, we won't agree on everything, but I welcome his constructive approach and I agree with him on the damage that reforms um dogma is doing to this when we have so much where we can agree with each other and so much where we can have a constructive report. I should also say I had a very good meeting with with RGU and you'll know from my own background that I think that engagement between policy makers and academia is something that is welcome. Um Sana Dexter Downy's um comments. Can I thank her as well and we've said we'll we'll we'll endorse um your amendment as well today. I take the point that you're raising about community benefits. I've seen it for myself from Innerwick in the south of Scotland to Shhatland and elsewhere that communities need to see the benefit of that and I welcome her remarks. I also look forward to working with her as well. Um Kate Campbell on the reality of climate change and reform would do well to listen to the reality of climate change is having a direct impact today and it's something that we all have to endorse. She also talked about the impact of Margaret Thatcher's policies. Well, yes, but I'd also talk about going back to Harold Wilson and Ted Heath and so on. I think it was um of course our colleagues in the Labour Party took us back to the 1970s. On Paul McClennon's point, can I say that I was in um his constituency recently as he's aware, it was firstly good to meet with stakeholders who were clearly aware of the fantastic work that Mr. Mlennon is doing. I accept his invitation to come and learn about skills in his constituency and I applaud his work in terms of the East Lotheian energy forum that he established and I look forward to meeting with him and discussing that further. Um Mr. McKinnon, can I thank you for your comments and about the huge um contribution and community benefit and and the leadership that's been shown by communities in your constituency of Nalin and Nyar on this and I think that there's there's a lot to learn. I noticed that the first minister um announced that expansion of the CARES payments when he was in the western. I think it was right that he he he did that there and acknowledges the work of some of the communities that that that that you represent and I hope you won't mind also acknowledging the work that your predecessor Alistister Allen did in some of that as well. Um Emma Rodic mentioned the word opportunity and she was right to talk about opportunity and diversity in her constituency. whiskey distillers, farmers who are making such a big contribution. Um, I would say to her though, she mentioned um Hannah Mary Goodlad's visit to Ardisier over the summer recess. I will say to her that I also made a visit um to Ardere over the summer um recess. I must have a think about my publicity when I'm doing these things. Um but I was so impressed by what I saw in the work that was going on. She was right to raise Mingyang. I've called upon the UK government to do what they've done elsewhere and to look at guard rails and I would in all collegiality with the UK government continue to urge them to do that and I'm very happy to meet with them and to work with them on that as well. Jenny Mento talked about again that point on community benefit and that communities must be listened to as part of that process. I think it was well made. Um Heather Anderson made an excellent point on the city of Dundee. Um, it might be remiss of me to say as the minister, but I think she's right. Dundy is perfectly poised in so many ways, but especially in the opportunity that we have here, and I look forward to joining her in visiting the Port of Dundee. And whereas I agree with my um with with Heather Anderson on most things, I would kindly remind her that the Port of Dundee sits in my constituency, not hers. Um, but [snorts] but she made a very good point. Monica Lennon, I want to touch upon this. You're so right about climate deniability. You're so right and it's so important that you raised it and that impact of the involvement of young people as well in this because they're the ones who will live with the consequences for so much longer. Um Lloyd Melville such a good point on Queib Bono who profits um and he's right about the impact it's having on Angus and how much Angus has got to bring to this discussion and debate and we must fulfill our potential. Um, I know that he was intervened on by Michelle and that point on decommissioning I think is a really important point. That's something that now comes inside my portfolio and it's something that I think is a point well made. Just on some of those final remarks and I know I don't have too long. Um, presiding officer >> 90 seconds I'll do my very best. Um, again San Dra's points on electrifying and seeing the benefits. Irish Dwayne's point honor amendment and so important to bring up the issue of fuel poverty and the impact that this has on people and the human side of fuel poverty and that's something that also sits inside my portfolio. Um Paul Sweeney it was a pity. Um I'm not sure you can blame the SNP for Labour's inab inability to beat the Tories at elections beat in 1979 or in years since. I'm afraid that um we've always done our bit in terms of defeating the Conservatives, but he struggled. So, what he did want to take is but and also bemoning the impact of Westminster governments over the 70s, 80s and 90s on the energy sector. I welcome him to the party, but I hope I hope that this would be a more positive debate, Mr. Sweeney. Um but on the point of Labour's amendment, the Green Amendment, and the Liberal Democrat amendment, um shall we say, I would like to have a presumption in favor of responsible and constructive opposition amendments, and that's why we are happy to endorse those today. Um, overall, one thing that I just want to endorse very briefly, presiding officer, it's a privilege to hold this role and I've been so pleased with the engagement that I've had from most members and most parties in this chamber and the powerful message that we are sending out to industry, to stakeholders and communities. The opportunity is right now and w and um will deliver so much for Scotland and I look forward to working with everybody. Thank you. Say not sir. >> Thank you minister. That concludes the debate on Scotland's energy. Uh we now move to decision time and there are six questions to be put. Uh the first question is amendment 1114.3 in the name of Daniel Johnson which seeks to amend motion 114 1114 in the name of Steven Gins and Scotland's energy opportunity to be agreed. Are we all agreed? >> We are not agreed. Um we will therefore um move to a vote. There'll be a short suspension to the members to access the digital voting system.