Scottish Government Debate: Programme for Government 2026-31 - 01 September 2026

Thank you, First Minister. The next item of business is a debate without motion on the program for government 2026 to 2031. Members wishing to speak should press their request to speak buttons now. And I call Malcolm offered 7 minutes. And before uh you speak, Malcolm, I'm pleased to see you Hal and Harty back in the chamber. Thank you presiding officer and for those kind words. It's good to be back in Hollywood and this is where the rubber hits the road. The S&P have had their first 100 days in government and today is when the Scottish people ask when will their fine words turn into meaningful improvement to their lives. We should remind ourselves in this chamber that 2 million Scots did not vote in the May election. Yes, 47% of the electorate did not vote because they've given up on politicians turning words into action. So the question here is can John Swinny change the habit of a lifetime? So we just heard the first minister set out his ambitions to improve our economy, help with the cost of living, improve our NHS, reform public services, and of course deliver independence for Scotland. Presiding officer, welcome back to Groundhog Day. Same old empty promises, just rebranded, but still a medly of sticking plasters and gimmicks instead of practical long-term solutions for the benefit of the Scottish people. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. What's new? GP walk-in centers, he cries. An idea developed in England by Tony Blair 25 years ago. Clever idea except it diverts GPS away from their regular practices and undermines the very concept that we the patient should develop a long-term relationship with our local GP locally. Why not just make all our local GPS more accessible to us the patients food price caps? He cries an idea that failed spectacularly in Hungary 3 years ago. Clever idea except the 23 industry trade associations including Scottish Retail Consortium, Food and Drink Federation, Scottish Bakers said yesterday that a price camp would be unnecessary, ineffective and likely to deliver significant adverse consequences for retailers, store staff and suppliers while pointing out that food prices in Scotland are already amongst the lowest in Europe. Well, what about a new school buy for every child in primary one? He cries foreign made of course. ignoring the sad fact that one in four Scottish school children leaving primary school in 2025 fail to achieve the required level of literacy for high school. Presiding officer, is it any wonder that 2 million Scots have given up on Hollywood gimmicks and sticking plasters? The Scots are not fooled. And that is why 385,000 Scots voted for Reform UK. The clue is in the name. We want reform, not gimmicks. Now, presiding officer, last week I was back in Clyde to talk about depopulation and deprivation and I set out a positive message of hope that we can turn around the fortresses of Clyde because the people there are so talented, innovative and kind. And I said that Ill is a market of Scotland such if we fixly, we can fix Scotland. And the key to this turnaround is encapsulated in one single word, jobs. jobs, a word only mentioned three times by the first minister in his 30inut speech. Gone are the days of mass employment in Scotland. Just like in Berkeley, where 16,000 jobs in ship building were replaced by 8,000 jobs in electronics, which were replaced by 2,000 jobs in call centers in ever decreasing circles. No, we need to rebuild Inberite and Scotland one job at a time and oneme at a time. Why? because they employ more than half of private sector workers in Scotland and they are local and they care about their communities. What message of hope did the first minister just give to 380,000memes who are struggling with rising costs and energy and employment costs and rent and business rates and taxes. Where was the urgency in his voice recognizing that onethird of the top 500memes in Scotland reported that the revenues went down in the last year? Where was his package of measures to reduce their cost of employing people while increasing the skills in our workforce as called for by Scottish chambers of commerce? That is why our country needs Reform UK to get a joined up approach across Westminster, Hollywood and councils with one common goal to increase employment and get our own folk back to work. With work comes better health, family prosperity, less child poverty, and the best way to afford the rising cost of living. Work remains the best route out of poverty, and the best form of welfare we can give any friend is a good job. That is why a reformed government in Westminster will maximize our own North Sea gas, give us cheap domestic energy, which will allow Scotland to re-industrialize more jobs. We'll make employment affordable again by reducing employers national insurance and diluting the flawed workers rights bill. More jobs and rebalance the benefit system to make sure work always pays more than welfare. More jobs. That's why a reformed government in Hollywood will stop wasting time and money on ideological projects like net zero and anti-uclear or transgender culture wars or virtue signaling on Gaza or prioritizing asylum seekers, not to mention never end them. Instead, we would focus on helping our own inactive Scottish adults back to work by repositioning Welfare Scotland to give a hand up, not a handout, and social housing as a reward for local workers, more jobs. And we' abolish the cumbersome sixb income tax uh regime, which is proven to reduce productivity while collecting less tax, which will result in more jobs. And that's why reformled councils will get laser focused on their localmemes to provide suitable business premises and blast through planning delays to get them operational and expanding rapidly to provide more jobs. And we'll get innovative around the redevelopment of brownfield sites in our town centers to allow housing and health solutions, business premises, and transport to be rapid local and prome. And the councils will crack the code on helping adults back to work with local solutions backed by DWP and Welfare Scotland, meaning more jobs. Presiding officer, that is what a real program for government looks like, not the thin grl served up today by the first minister. All Scotland wy skinking where the jes and luggies. Let me finish where I started to remind this chamber that 2 million Scots did not vote in the May election. double the 1 million that voted for the S&P. They are fed up with performative politics. Instead, they want good government. The days of fine wards are over. Scots want delivery. Scots want reform. >> I call Jackie Bailey. 10 minutes, please. >> Thank you, presiding officer. And I want to start by thanking the first minister for his statement. Both John Swinny and I are long-standing members of this parliament. And in the spirit of cooperation, I wish him and his government well in the implementation of this agenda. We will support his government when they get it right. But as you would expect, we will hold the government to account every step of the way to call out failure, to challenge error, and to insist on changes for the good of the people of Scotland. We will engage in good faith, but we will also challenge when we think you can do more. And let's be honest, this isn't really a new government. We are now in our 19th year of SNP government at Hollywood. That is by my count that is by my count the 20th SNP program for government. And John Swiny has been at the heart of all of this. education secretary, deputy first minister, finance secretary, COVID recovery minister, and now as first minister. So after almost 20 years, there really is no one else to blame for the state of public services today. It's the result of this SNP government and it is this parliament's duty to hold them to account for it. So let me turn to the statement we've just had from the first minister. lots of policies and initiatives in this statement that I welcome on tackling poverty, help for people who are struggling, on protecting women and reducing violent crime, and on measures to improve our NHS. And of course, it was Andy Bernham who first delivered a price cap on buses. So, the cap is welcome, too, but you do need buses in the first place, and many constituencies don't have them. Warm words for issues that the majority of this chamber care about, but warm words are no substitute for action. And I think I've heard lots of these promises before. We need delivery, not just debates. And the government's rhetoric must be matched by reform. That's the real test for any government. But what I must say about some of the first minister's statement is this. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I consider myself flattered. Let me say to the chamber, it's worth being patient. If you wait long enough, things you said more than a decade ago will suddenly be in vogue because the government doesn't really have many good ideas of their own. So for years, John Swinny and a succession of SNP health ministers told us that the NHS did not need any reform. Everything was fine. Waiting lists could grow. Delayed discharge could get worse. And all while chief executive pay soared. there is no need to restructure the service. They said no need to put patients and frontline staff first. Everything was okay. There was no need for change. But lo and behold, now the SNP agrees that the NHS needs reform. But seriously, this change of heart is welcome. I am however concerned that good ideas from Scottish Labor rarely survive contact with the SNP. Remember that it is this S SNP that adopted the idea of a national care service but bungled the legislation with years wasted, millions lost, and not a single extra hour of care delivered. The message was that local care was important. But the SNP appear to want another go at centralizing and removing responsibility from councils altogether. And I'm not sure that only two mainland health boards are going to be adequate. Scottish Labour's proposals were for three, one to specifically cover the Highlands and the Northeast. And I would urge ministers to consider this again in the interests of patient care. This reorganization of health boards must be accompanied by a shift in the balance of care. So we prioritize primary and preventative care. And that also means prioritizing and resourcing social care to the level needed. So, I will reserve my judgment on the SNP's new plans until we see the full extent of the detail of what they intend to do. But let me make a genuine offer to work with them to make sure that we get the detail right. We support our NHS staff to deliver and we actually have improved services for patients. But that's not the only indeed I will. First Minister, >> I'm very grateful to Jackie Bailey for giving way and I welcome what she's just said because the the manner in how I've set out the arguments on public service reform today recognize the fact that I don't command a majority in this parliament. There is a need for us to reach agreement with others. But there are some factors that we all can't escape about reform and public services that require that engagement. So I commit to to Jackie Bailey that the the government is willing to engage in that dialogue and on the basis of what she has said um I look forward to Labour participating in that dialogue. >> Jackie Bailey >> um I look forward to having that dialogue with the first minister and his ministers. Um and I hope it takes a form that hither too has not been seen um before which is to genuinely ignore some of the issues that we've brought forward. So, so I look forward to that change. Um, but it's not the only big idea that the SNP have you turned on. From scrapping peak rail fares to banning phones in school classrooms, there is plenty in this statement that's been lifted straight out of Scottish Labour's plans. So, I welcome that. But what is not so welcome is the record of the SNP. And history is always instructive because our NHS remains in deep disarray. NHS waiting lists are rising again. almost 700,000 waiting for an NHS appointment. Thousands who have waited months and also years. Delayed discharge continues to cost the Scottish taxpayer millions of pounds every year with patients stuck in hospital when they should be at home. And this summer in A&E, waiting times the worst on record. most depressing and cynical of all, the long promised flagship Monkland's Hospital, which was effectively shelved, I see today, an exciting new announcement. But John Swinny is pretending that everything is fine and there is nothing to see here. Now, constituency MSP and then Health Secretary Neil Gray made the delivery of the new Monklands a central part of his election pitch. He and John Swinny posed for photographs on the site, all while knowing before the election that the government plans would dramatically change. He deliberately misled the people of Scotland and his own constituents by promising a hospital that he knew would not be delivered as planned. That is shameful. But it is symbolic of the SNP's approach to our NHS. Promise the world and deliver nothing but more failure. Their big idea, more walk-in GP clinics. A plan that's been robustly criticized by health professionals as a gimmick that does nothing to fix the fundamental issues in primary care. And today, a shiny new waiting times target. A pitiful ambition. And given your track record, it is one that you may never even meet. Scotland's patients deserve so much better. and I will make no apologies for fighting their cause in this parliament at every opportunity. Now, the failure to get to grips with the crisis in Scotland's NHS may be one of the most serious examples of failure from this government, but it is far from unique. Just take the issue of crime. The latest statistics have shown that crime is on the rise across Scotland. Violent crime up by 7% in a single year. Sexual crime up by 9%. domestic abuse up by 19% and we have fewer police on our streets. The commitments to tackling crime and keeping women and children safe in the program for government are of course welcome. But what people want and what people need is action, not warm words. A misogyny bill absolutely welcome. But this has been promised before. In fact, this is the third parliamentary term and it's still not been delivered. And we know that the SNP's track record on crime is weak. Our schools are in desperate need of support. It's been a decade since John Swinny himself was tasked with closing the poverty related attainment gap. Well, it's now even wider, holding back thousands of young Scots. And if he failed at this, how can we trust him to succeed a decade later as first minister? Now, I waited with baited breath to hear John Swinn's new plan to fix education in Scotland, to close the attainment gap, to fund our universities, to support our colleges. So, what is the plan? A free school bag for every primary one pupil who wants one. If a free school bag was the answer, what on earth was the question? Because frankly, it's going to take more than a school bag to fix the mess that the SNP has made of our education system. One of the fundamental duties of the Scottish government is to make life easier for Scots. And with many struggling to make ends meet, it is incumbent on the government to do what it can to help and to do it with the urgency needed. John Swinny has already outlined his flagship idea to ease the squeeze on family budgets, price caps on food and essential items. He talked a lot about it during the election, but there was very little reference to it in his program for government speech today. But I welcome the consultation launch. We need to do all that we can to help people who are struggling. There are however reservations about whether this will work in practice. Industry is not convinced. More important to me, a local constituent who relies on lowcost items said to me that she was actually worried that this would have the reverse effect and push prices that she currently pays up even higher. So, we will hold off on making a judgment for now until we see the detail. But we need a policy that is workable. We need a policy that doesn't wait on a lengthy legislative process that might be open to legal challenges. Others on these benches will raise our ambitions to tackle child poverty, to grow the economy, to boost jobs, to build homes for people, to end rough sleeping, and invest in infrastructure over the coming week. And as consideration turns to the budget, we must absolutely talk about the mismatch between the program for government's ambitions and the five billion black hole in the finances that are coming down the track. The stakes are too high for old broken SNP promises. We need to work better together and Scottish Labor will do so. But equally, we will hold the government to account. >> Thank you. Can I remind all members who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons, please? And I call Jillian Mai. Thanks, presiding officer. The Scottish Greens fought this election on policies that would deliver for people and for planet, tackling both the climate crisis and the cost of living emergencies. Our record result showed that people are ready for those radical ideas which make lives better for current and future generations. The S SNP used to share that vision. This time 5 years ago, we were working with them on a progressive plan for Scotland where we worked collectively to use every power of this parliament to create positive change. Presiding officer, I try very hard to be collaborative and work with government where and when I can, as does my party and we will continue to do that this session. But there are a huge number of disappointments in this program for government. Two pound bus fairs kicked into the long grass across most of Scotland. No plan to implement rent controls. The promised ban on conversion practices shelved. Nothing on how to implement the boycott, divestment and sanction of Israel that this chamber voted for a year ago. And the only proposal for hypers scale data centers is to produce a plan to attract more. This is not a program for government Nicholas Sturgeon would have signed off on. 5 years ago, the Scottish Greens delivered free bus travel for under 22s, saving thousands of young people money and making work and studying opportunities more accessible. We believe that free bus travel should be expanded to everyone, cutting emissions while saving people money at a time where the cost of living crisis seems to be ever deepening. Last year, Green MSP secured the 2-ind bus cap pilot in the Highlands and Islands as a step towards that final goal of universally free bus travel. John Swinny promised to then roll out that to more areas of the country. But this program for government kicked the fair cap into the long grass across most of Scotland. The two pound cap has been a gamecher for thousands of people across the highlands and islands, helping families and regular travelers to cut the costs of getting around, reducing emissions and keeping more monies in people's pockets. It has shown what's possible when we put affordable, accessible public transport at the heart of our policies. We welcome the roll out coming quickly for those across the SPT area happening from Monday morning. But the program for government also says that it'll take five years to roll it out to the rest of the country. Taking five years to roll out the two pound bus fair cap to the rest of Scotland when there's already a national cap in England that will be reduced to two pounds in January is letting down Scottish bus users. Why should people in the rest of the country have to wait five more years? First minister, the cost of living crisis isn't waiting five years. The program for government says the Scottish government will continue to work with the UK government to end conversion therapy, trying to quote unquote cure people of their sexuality, trying to punish people to stop them being trans. It says in the program for government, should the UK government fail to deliver, we will not hesitate to bring forward Scottish legislation. Has the first minister not seen? The UK government have published their plan. It only applies to England and Wales. What more information does the first minister need? This government needs to get off the fence, stop hesitating, and decide whether it stands with LGBT people or not. Protect protecting LGBTQ Scots from abuse is the job of the Scottish government, and we need to see them act. We're one year on from Parliament's historic vote to boycott the apartheid state of Israel and the companies complicit in its occupation of Palestine. But the Scottish government has failed to turn words into action. In most respects, they've done the bare minimum and offered little evidence of meaningful change. We welcome the government's commitment to explore a scholarship for students from Gaza, but that doesn't do anything to end the occupation or prevent companies from profiting from it. If a company is profiting from apartheid and genocide, the Scottish government must use every power it has to ensure it is also it's not also profiting from public money here in Scotland. That requires more than statements of concern or gestures that change nothing. It requires real measurable action. We hoped that this program for government would be the moment that that changes, but it doesn't seem to be coming. That means reviewing existing contracts, ending relationships with companies identified as complicit in illegal settlement activity, and giving councils the powers they need to make ethical procurement decisions. The Scottish government has already shown that it can act when it chooses to. When minister ministers issued guidance to Scottish businesses following Russia's invasion of Ukraine, they made it clear that the private sector had a responsibility to respond. Palestinians deserve no less. The program for government should have been the moment that everything changed. It should have set out a clear timetable, concrete measures, and a mechanism for accountability so that parliament's vote is finally translated into action. We cannot have a boycott in name only. Parliament did not vote for empty gestures and it's hugely disappointing that Scot Scottish government has not use this opportunity to set out how they will support the people of Palestine. One of the most genuinely baffling parts of the document is that government is looking to attract responsible green data centers. Given that the government can't define what a green data center is, a responsible green data center seems even more ridiculous. These proposals, like the one at Larara in my region, have caused huge concern for the local community. Noise, diesel generators, and light pollution are not just concerning residents, but local businesses and the care home next door to this development. They're concerned that they won't be able to use their garden and provide the end of life care they currently can. We need a moratorum on these applications while guidance is developed. Otherwise, councils will have already made decisions by the time that guidance appears. Some local authorities have already said they don't have the expertise to take the decision on these applications. They also don't have the ability to look at these on a national level and assess what this means for our national energy needs. The Scottish government needs to take this issue seriously and support communities rather than private profit. Families across Scotland are feeling the strain on their budgets and have been promised free child care when their little ones turn three. We welcome movement on any form of free child care in the program for government, but are disappointed that there's no movement on supporting local authorities to truly deliver free at three. This would make hundreds of pounds of a difference to families budgets. We've also seen issues on cross boundary placements. Constituents of mine in Falerk have had to move their children twice at short notice due to the removal of funding. all because they live in one local authority and their children go to a childcare setting in another. This funding is part of a national scheme so parents can't understand why they're being excluded because of their postcode. And I hope that is part of the child care review, government will look at this issue and work with local authorities to solve it. This is a program for government that will be a huge disappointment to those who need cheaper bus travel, a watertight ban on conversion practices and to those who care about the environment. It's clear that the Scottish Greens are now the only party who will speak up for current and future generations who care about equality for all, economic justice, and a habitable planet. We will spend the next 5 years speaking up for those people. >> Thank you. Uh I call Russell Finley for six minutes, please. >> Thank you, officer. I begin by saying I'm very pleased to see Malcolm offered back here fighting fit, although maybe not in that particular seat, of course. Um, we've just heard John Swinn's five-year plan for Scotland, and I think two words sum up this program for government, meddling, and gimmicks. >> John Swinny went into the election saying that he would give a free school bag to every primary one pupil. But his manifesto his manifesto gimmick doesn't even appear in his program for government. >> And I wonder if he's too embarrassed to include it or whether it's just gone the same way as the SNP's broken promises of free bikes and laptops. >> Absolutely. >> Now, what is in the program for government is John Swinn's Soviet style supermarket price fixing plan. Business groups, business groups warned that it's unnecessary and will be un ineffective. A potty gimmick, says the Scottish Retail Consortium. Now, John Swinny doesn't listen to experts, but maybe he will listen when his own government lawyers repeatedly say to him that this is a non-starter, >> not compatible. And then then there's John Swinn's independence bill nearly identical to Nicholas Sturgeon's independence bill. Zombie legislation backed from the dead. But this is no joke because the jer figures published over recess confirm what all of us know that if the SNP ever get their way, the people of Scotland would suffer tax rises and public spending cuts on a scale never seen before. >> And as we heard from John Swinny today, he continues to be a fiscal flat earther. This is all a dangerous distraction when parliament should be focused in what really matters. Cutting taxes, reducing the SNP's benefits bill, backing vital new oil and gas, fixing broken business rates, ensuring criminals do their time, upgrading lifeline roads, building fairies, and of course, tackling NHS waiting lists. The SNP are entirely responsible for plunging Scotland's NHS into a near permanent state of crisis. Hundreds of thousands of Scots are waiting for treatment. Yet, the SNP now reckon they're able to fix the problem of their own making, and they'll apparently do this by cutting the number of NHS boards from 14 to two. Now, we welcome any serious effort to improve patient care and to curb the SNP's bloated state. We will carefully consider John Swinny's plan, but we will not allow him to destroy critical local services which are already being cut. Our NHS must serve all communities equally across all of Scotland. And people will be understandably suspicious because they've heard it all before. Look at the pre-election gimmick of walk-in GP clinics which were not about delivering appointments. They were about delivering a cheap headline for John Swinny. >> The SNP's record of largecale public sector meddling is dire. Look at the mess they made of Police Scotland, which lurches from one crisis to another. With fewer officers in our streets, some crimes are not even being investigated, while violent and sexual crimes surge. Then there's the millions squandered on the SNP's abandoned National Care Service. Big ideas, but abysmal delivery. And all of this is a distraction. a giant distraction from the SNP's5 billion pound black hole in Scotland's public finances. >> How you going to fill it, John? How are you going to fill it? >> How's he going to fill it? It says nothing about it. >> This is caused by two decades of reckless spending, serial incompetence, and scandalous waste epitomized by two fairies costing almost half a billion pounds. John Swinny has bowed to every single inflation busting public service pay deal. He's allowed a work from home culture in the civil service that kills productivity and fails the paying public. And throughout this time, the SNP keep turning the thumb screws on Scotland's hardworking taxpayers. Precisely. >> Now, I'm delighted that John Swinny finally agrees with the Scottish Conservatives. He agrees that under his party, public sector has become bloated and inefficient, >> that cuts are necessary, that it is common sense, but I have very little faith in his ability to deliver. John Swinny assures us that Ivan McKe will tackle waste and cut costs. Ivan McKe has even been called the axeman. The problem is that John Swinny John Swinny expects Ivan McKe to fail a forest while handing him a pair of garden pruners. They will not demand true value for taxpayers or cut taxes. They won't order public sector workers back to the office. They won't call their voted quangos and they refuse to even accept that their benefits, state benefits are out of control. We'll have a lot more to say about John Swinn's program for government, but we know from the SNP's record of meddling and gimmicks and John Swinn's own record that there's a massive gulf between their rhetoric and their delivery. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you. And >> I remind members that I cannot call them to speak if they don't press the request to speech buttons. So if you intend to speak the debate, please do so. I now call Alex Cole Hamilton for five minutes. >> Thank you very much, presiding officer. Presiding officer, as we've just heard, occasions like this are characterized usually by speeches of disagreement and rancor. But let me begin with a moment of profound consensus, and that is on the eradication of male violence against women and girls. In July, this country saw three women murdered by partners or former partners. They will not be defined by the manner of their death or the people who took them from us. But their passing, I think, measures out the challenge that exists for our generation of parliamentarians in that eradication. It is one challenge that Liberal Democrats will proudly join the government in. Residing officer, Liberal Democrats uh demonstrated in the last parliament that we are here to get things done and on issues such as that, we are prepared to hunt for agreement wherever we can find it. and we were rewarded at the ballot box for so doing. Our newly expanded group of parliamentarians has not rested over the summer. When it emerged that some GP walk-in centers have seen just three or four patients in a day, Adam Harley was rightly asking on this evidence why the government thinks it's right for them to now open 20 more. Morvin May McCullum argued the law should automatically stop convicted rapists from keeping their taxi operator license. That's surely something we should all agree on. We've just learned that the Scottish government's own water company dumped sewage more than a hund,000 times into our rivers, locks, and beaches last year. So, Sana Dykest Downey is rightly asking why bosses took home hundreds of thousands of pounds in bonuses and why parliament isn't modernizing our laws on that. And when wildfires devastated the Kangorms, Andrew Baxter was there asking where are the helicopters? Where are the extra resources for the fire service? Why did it take nine days for ministers to meet in the Scottish government's own resilience room by which time the blaze had consumed hundreds of square miles of uh the Ken Gorms presiding officer that inertia is so frustrating. It is symptomatic of this government's approach to so many things. So while we will always hunt for agreement we will always call out those shortcomings as well. Presiding officer, the backdrop to these remarks is sobering. It is a reminder of failure of this party of government to grow our economy. As such, this will be a difficult session for administration. Everyone knows that trouble that public services and public finances are in because none of us are insulated from it. Everybody feels the impact in some shape or form. Patients marooned in hospital waiting for a care package. Islanders waiting for feries. pupils with additional support needs missing out on support. The S&P government is now facing the business end of its failure to grow our economy to the tune of a5 billion pound black hole in the public finances. That isn't inevitable. It took decades of political choices. flick uh flick through years of reports from the likes of the Scottish Fiscal Commission and you'll read how decisions routinely got deferred or dodged, how spending has consistently been preferred to reform, and how fiscal drag and record funding from the UK government has been used to paper over the cracks. The result is that 5 billion chasm at a time when the NHS is still on its knees and people are desperate for more help with the cost of living. We recognize that the need for reform is abundant, but the measures outlined in this statement, I think, speak to the political instincts of the SNP around centralization rather than any empirically led path to change that can empower communities to take matters into their own hands. It hints at the effective reintroduction of the National Care Service so derided by our nation's stakeholders and by moving away from 14 territorial health boards to just two. But that will not deliver improvements to patient experience. It won't free up social care to receive the 2,000 patients stuck in our hospitals. It won't clear down neurodeiversity waiting times. It won't allow ambulances to discharge their patients into the hospitals. And it won't even save a great deal of money. When we cautioned against the merger of Police Scotland, we did so because we knew it would asset strip control from local communities because we aren't a one-sizefits-all country. Can we really expect the needs of portry hospital on sky to receive the same particular attention from a health board based in the central belt as liberals? We fundamentally believe that power works better when it is devolved closer to the communities it serves. I will give way to Angela >> cabinet secretary grateful to the member. I wonder if Mr. Cole Hamilton and his colleagues would consider the fact that they have often very rightly and valiantly h raised the issues of how services delivered in for example rural Scotland, Wick and Keith Ness uh have not been have been inconsistent in comparison to elsewhere in the country and does he not think that public service reform is an opportunity to make sure that decision making and service delivery should at a level that's best placed to understand and and improve people's lives. Therefore, does he agree that we should work together in terms of what's local, what's regional, and what's national? >> Alex Koko Hamilton and you must come to a conclusion. >> I absolutely agree with that. But that's not the government policy. The government policies is to asset strip away power away from our local communities in decision-m two health boards is much more centralized than 14. Local control matters. That's what Liberals will always stand for. And as we move into this parliament, we will hunt for agreement where we can, but we will offer fierce opposition to the centralizing instincts of this SNP administration. Thank you. We now move to open debate speeches and I call Patricia Gibson for five minutes. >> Thank you presiding officer and I thank the first minister for setting out his program for government and its ambitious vision for Scotland. Despite current constitutional limitations, I'm delighted that the first minister is continuing to drive Scotland forward, delivering for the people of Scotland. And this SNP vowed during the election to do even more to tackle the cost of living. And today we have seen a range of measures uh which will have a real impact on people's lives. Boosting people's incomes, helping people back into work, which is the best route out of poverty, a strong focus on economic growth to build Scotland's wealth in an inclusive way in order to tackle poverty. But I'm particularly pleased to hear about the proposals regarding local authorities which is especially important for I have long supported the merger of councils and such a proposal not only has the backing of three chief executives the SNP and speaking to Alan Gaml MP only 10 days ago it also has the backing of all four Labor Air MPs. Such a merger would save millions of pounds by slimming down bureaucracy, freeing up resources to sustain and indeed boost frontline public services. I would have liked the Scottish government to go even further by incorporating local health boards into this new democratic structure. For example, in NHS, Urser and Aaron, it would obiate the need for three integrated joint boards and ensure better, more effective decision making, which would allow them to share resource, provide more local control as opposed to greater centralization. But I'm very interested to hear more details um about what the government has about what the first minister has proposed today as the debate the debate progresses around the logic of this and its implications for frontline services and building capacity. A stronger one council would also boost economic development and investment with Scottish enterprise college and local businesses interacting with only one local authority. And I trust that the first minister and public service reform secretary Ivan McKe will work to deliver this new one council by completing a con a consultation on such changes by the end of this year. Three months of engagement outlined by the first minister demonstrates that clear ambition to implement these necessary forms by the 1st of April 2028. a realistic timetable if it is pursued with determination and vigor and which differentiates between vested interests and the imperative to deliver better public services to those we serve. Now I have to declare an interest uh presiding officer as chair of North Women's Aid. I welcome the first minister's renewed commitment to tackle violence against women and girls. Fundamental to this is the need to ensure that victims of violence and domestic abuse are not repeatedly retraumatized. And the first minister will be aware that too often the reality is that those convicted of serious sexual violence and domestic abuse are released on bail and go on to break bail conditions and non-h harassment orders, hunting their original victims back down. And once again, victims feel that the system does not properly listen to or properly protect them. And as a result, sometimes women pay for that with their lives. And we've seen recent high-profile cases of this. But the tragedy is that these cases are all too common. If prevention, of course, is really, really important. But if women are to be protected from sexual violence and domestic abuse, the foundation of that protection is on how robustly the criminal justice system deals with offenders. Statistics tell us that every year eight women in Scotland are murdered by their partners or former partners, but the real number is undoubtedly much higher given hidden homicides and uh suicides to be factored in. And I would urge the first minister to uh look at some of the groundbreaking work going on in France and to meet with an expert in the field, Professor Jane Monton Smith to better inform progress and work in this area. Um, today we see the ambitious, radical, innovative outlook of this new Scottish government and I continue to urge the first minister to push at the boundaries of the constraints of this devolved settlement which limits our powers but cannot and will not ever limit the SNP vision of what we know is Scotland's boundless potential. And I know the first minister's ambition for Scotland knows no limits. And I hope he will continue to be radical and innovative to drive forward the ambitions we all have for a healthier, fairer, more prosperous, and importantly, more confident Scotland. >> Thank you. I call Paul Mleen to be followed by Jackie Dunar. >> Thank you, presiding officer. In May this year, we all stood for election, standing on our party's manifestos and ambitions for Scotland. The SNP won an overwhelming victory with a record margin over the second place parties. The SNP is a mandate to progress that I and other colleagues stood upon. We all have a part to play in delivering change whether in government or not. We all have responsibility to ensure reform delivers for those we serve. I want to touch on a few points raised in the first minister's speech this afternoon. He set out the main themes, themes we can all agree on. We will act to eradicate child poverty. We will make Scotland the best place to do business. We will tackle a climate and nature crisis and will improve Scotland's public services. All these issues impact my constituents in East London coast in Lamir. The first minister talked about the need for public sector reform. I remember the previous Christy Commission. Collectively, did Scotland do enough to progress this agenda? I don't think so. The first minister stated we must undertake radical and widespread public service reform putting an individual at the heart of the changes make. That's what we're all here for to serve our constituents. And of course he was correct and we can all agree that public services to make a decisive shift to prevention and early intervention. We all talk about it but now it's time for action. This is about removing barriers to progress and make sure that every pound of investment is focused on frontline delivery. This is about achieving consensus in the chamber and we've heard that today about our trade unions, other stakeholders and of course our constituents. We've all got a role to engage with our constituents on this program for government. This must be around about focusing about the needs of our citizens rather than that of existing structures and systems and the first minister has has stated that he's open to discussing that right across the chamber. He also said in his speech, we're faced with the reality that some councils are too small to be strategic and some are too big to be local. East Lotheian is the fastest growing area in Scotland with our population due to increase by a third in around about 10 to 15 years. Opportunities for economic growth of course need to be supported by the Scottish government. I will continue to ensure we maximize the opport these opportunities and slow then our regions need strengthened and empowered to maximize growth opportunities and I look forward to taking part in these discussions. The first minister also stated today it will begin a three-month period of intense engagement with our local government partners about a new structure for local government. There's many of us in the chamber who have local government experience and I will be engaging thoroughly with our local council on this issue. The first minister also stated the starting point is that changes must not create another layer of administration or a new group of politicians. He stated that the form must mean stronger and more strategic regions with the powers, the permission and the flexibility and that's a key word and the flexibility need to drive economic growth and investments of all part of Scotland. So we in turn improve people's lives in all parts of Scotland and in all our constituencies. strong economic levers to regions including where relevant must be forefront of thoughts including and this is part of the debate I think we need to have as well as possible new powers being devolved to Scotland from the UK government reform to social care must also be part of engagement over these next few months with partners local government and with trade unions and with the third sector and with partners and our communities and again that's something I pledge to constituents and stakeholders resol to do so from the NHS itself stated more joined up delivery to improve improve patient access to care and to reduce inequality for some patients due to health board boundaries are key. Now I'm a member of the health board, the health committee and I look forward to engaging with the committee and others. In terms of that there are current 14 boards as we heard that now be moving to two strategic health boards. The devil of course will be in the detail but this is up to us to engage with the local health boards and constituents and how we deliver these deliberate changes going forward. This of course I think will enable us to deliver additional capacity to ensure and this is the key pledge that the first minister's made that no one makes more than 26 weeks by the end of 21 for the treatment that they need. Again, I pledge to work very closely with NHS loading colleagues over the next three months. This is a radical program for government. We all have our part to play in ensuring public sector form. We all have a part to play in mature, responsible debate. I also welcome announcements now we tackle violence against women. This is an issue that requires action. This also requires cultural change by all men in Scotland. I also welcome announcements around a major project office encouraging investment with a focus on housing and energy alongside a Scottish high growth unit working with business. This can accelerate deliver delivery of the right support for high potential businesses so they can grow to scale in Scotland and just as importantly stay in Scotland. Presenting officer in conclusion this is a radical change but you all have a part to play in engaging with our communities. Thank you. >> I call Jackie Dumbar to be followed by Stuart McMillan. >> Thank you preiding officer. Firstly, just a few short months on from the election where we saw a record number of pro-independence MSPs elected, can I say how pleased I am that we now have a referendum bill out for consultation. People made their voice heard at the last election and they gave us this parliament a clear 73 to 56 seat mandate to hold a referendum. Perhaps the new prime minister could have heard that himself from folk up here if he'd bothered to take his listening tour to Scotland. Instead, he's sitting hundreds of miles away in number 10 Downing Street, denying folk in Scotland a say on their own future. Possibly he's sitting hundreds of miles away in number 10 North, denying folk in Scotland a say on their own futures. Until we get our independence though, we still need to do all we can to make Scotland the best possible place it can be for the folk who live here. That means using the powers we have and far too often that means mitigating decisions taken in in Westminster that do not work for Scotland. That means working to improve folks lives. That means working to eradicate child poverty. That means creating jobs and bringing in investment. That means driving up living standards and putting more money into famil family's pockets. When times are tough, I'm proud to support a Scottish government that is listening, that is helping folk, and that is showing leadership. And I want to focus on one particular aspect of this program for government today. Over the we have heard a lot about protecting women and girls, more often than not, from men. on those far too many do not actually listen to women. They just decided we need protection from something that they don't like and some of the loudest voices and who seem to use their voices to shout at hotels have some pretty horrendous backgrounds when it comes to their own treatment of women. So, can I commend the first minister for showing what protecting women and girls actually looks like? First of all, he started off by actually listening to women, including women who have suffered domestic abuse. And it's not just the first minister, it's his whole government. I know that because Samita Kumur, our minister for equalities, was meeting with Grampium Women's Aid in my constituency over the recess. I told this chamber last year that Grampium Women's Aid are a fantastic organization, and I'll say it again. Grampion Women's Aid is amazing. I'd also encourage all of my fellow Northeast MSPs to visit and to listen to them. And since you never know who's watching these debates, I will also repeat myself from last year. If you're a woman in the Northeast who needs help, Grampian Women's Aid will help you. So, please do not be afraid to reach out. Presiding officer, right now Scotland has a problem with violence against women and girls and I am thankful that we have a first minister who do not who not only recognizes that but who is also h has set out steps today to tackle that. I'll take an intervention. >> Russell Finley >> about the importance of tackling violence against women and girls. I just wonder whether the member regrets the passing of the legislation 3 years ago that made remanding in custody men that harm even more difficult. >> Jackie Dumbar. >> Yeah, we're talking about the here and now presiding officer. I'm not going to listen to another speech that that could have been read out last year. Um and I am going to to concentrate on what the program for government is for the next five years. Presiding officer, I am also thankful that we have MSPs from across this chamber who have signed up to back the Sunday posts its time campaign. A campaign which has now been reflected in this program for government. Today we have also heard plans for a misogyny bill which will outlaw misogyny in Scotland. We've heard plans to to ban deep fake intimate images, not just creation but also possession. And we've heard about plans to make pregnancy an aggravating factor in domestic abuse cases. There is more to do and more to fix, but a lot of that doesn't need legislation. It needs funding. It does need leadership, including from all of us. It does need men to start actually listening to women rather than just proclaiming themselves our defenders. Then once they've actually listened and understood, it needs men to play their part in standing up to unacceptable behavior, including from those they consider friends. And I know sometimes that's the hardest thing to do. And it does need us to change attitudes across the country. But in terms of what we can make better with legislation, and what we have today is a very good start. That's not just for women and girls, but across the board. This is a program for government and I trust to make lives be folks lives better. Work as if you live in the early days of a better nation is carved into the walls of this very building and it's at the foundations of this government and its plans for Scotland's future. Thank you >> Stuart McMillan up to five minutes. >> Thank you sing also just at the outset. whilst I do welcome Malcolm offer's health is a lot better and he's back in the chamber. I do want to touch upon just two very brief points just to remind Mr. Offford that it was his former party that demolish the ship building industry in the west of Scotland particularly in Enverlide that you referenced earlier on and also it was his former party and the free market economy that ensured that the electronics industry also left indeed to go to cheaper countries. So I am pleased to be speaking in this debate and today's program for government sets the scene for the new parliamentary term also since the election. This SMP government is focused on delivering progress on its priorities within the first 100 days. Now that includes the commencing the roll out of the expanded 10-year 50 million pounds homeless prevention fund the opening the first round of applications for the first homes fund providing first-time buyers with a £10,000 contribution towards deposit on the first home. opening GP walk-in centers with 24 more areas in Scotland set to benefit including in Inenver Clyde and reopening the adult social care displace worker scheme to new applications to help expand the number of care workers in Scotland. These are just some of the things have happened over the course of the last 100 days but I believe that we do need to consolidate that work and I welcome the first minister's comments about reforming our public services. Now the the co 19 pandemic highlighted the need to do things differently and better. So I agree that restructuring the way we actually uh deliver services is really important. It's absolutely crucial. Importantly focusing on prevention that driving the public sector reform where it's needed and ensuring investment is directed towards frontline services to improve outcomes for people and communities. Because as the first minister touched upon earlier, we're here for the people. We're not here for ourselves. We're here for the people to actually deliver a better Scotland. And also the first minister already touched upon today about the importance of health services being delivered closer to home. Now this is something I know will be welcomed by my constituents in Iberite. Those who have had to travel elsewhere for routine health services. The first program for government of any new term must set out. We're going to set all the different stalls and different parties uh for the next five years. And this document from this the S SNP Scottish government is brimming with the S SNP's ambitious plans to deliver for the people of Scotland for parents a massive expansion in childare for students a guarantee that the SNP will always protect free higher education for commuters a guarantee that the SNP will not bring back peak rails and a will to introduce the new two pounds busware cap across Scotland with Inberly starting on Monday which is great news for people in Inberly for anyone one struggling to afford nutritious food, a price cap on a basket of essential food items, and for a health service plans to protect, renew, and invest so we can drive down waiting times. So, I welcome yet again the the comments from the first minister about the community health care hub in Port Glasgow and also once again about the the GP walk-in centers for for my constituency. House building is urgently required. Too many families live in overcrowded conditions where many older people live in homes that require significant repair and are too costly for them to heat. RSL's acquiring larger older properties can assist, but we do need new highquality housing stock also and I therefore welcome the 4.9 billion pounds investment earmarked for building thousands more affordable homes. This will go some way to helping to get people back into work. also uh in terms of training and also education to get people into the construction sector. Go on to the buses point as well. I mean this the two pound cap will actually help more people travel around in also get more people out of their cars to use public transport. Now as the comm of the climate action committee this term I'm even more aware of the challenges we face to ensure Scotland is resilient to more extreme weather events. So the 50 million pounds uh funding uh for flood support communities across Scotland is really important that will certainly help many more communities across the country and I know that certainly from our own constituency where flooding has put people out of their homes but with a with a a team approach to really kind of make something make improvements. These houses are back into use which has been great and I welcome Scottish Water for their engagement in that and also incl. But I mean as colleagues have touched upon sign off also uh there remains the acute need to address violence against women and girls in Scotland. It's not a new issue. We are not immune to the challenges in Scotland but we can show the leadership and willingness to do more. So I do welcome the plans to bring forward the misogyny bill that that's touched upon earlier on. And finally saying officer I mean these are all things that we have done are doing and want to do even more. This is within the the constraints of devolution with independence. We can do so much more without the Westminster mismanagement that we have seen between between Brexit that we didn't vote for the austerity measures that we've seen and the failed trustwarting budget and also the failed uh Labor government that we've just seen from Kier Starmer. We can do so much more with the full powers of independence. And that's why I absolutely welcome that the draft bill that was published by the Scottish government last week and I know that that will be supported by many people in my constituency. Thank you very much. >> We now move on to the winding up speeches and I call Willie Renie up to five minutes. >> Thank you deputy presiding officer. Can I can I start off with thanking the first minister? Um he took the time over the summer um following the tragic death of Stacy Hunter to to meet an um her mother and their family and they Stacy originally was from Faulland and my constituency and I know the community in Faulland have been utterly devastated by what happened to Stacy. I attended the funeral and there was people in tears all around me. But I know the campaigners um following Stacy's death are keen to see changes to make sure that we're you fully utilizing the technology that is available through tagging and the um new technologies around GPS to track because it was clearly the case in Stacy's death that even though her aranged husband was ordered to stay away from her, that was not sufficient to protect Stacy. Um, so I'm hoping that we can work together to try and progress forward and better understand what more we can do with technology, but also perhaps with changes in regulation and law to make sure that Stacy doesn't die in vain, but that is remembered forever. Thank you, >> First Minister. >> To I'm grateful to Mr. any for giving way and let me give him the assurance that uh I will happily engage on these questions to identify what further steps we can take. Um I very much appreciated the dialogue I had with um with Stacy Stacy Hunter's mom and I will um give give Mr. the commitment to follow up the issues that were given there and also to identify the further steps that we can maximize through use of technology to try to support some of the decisions that are taken in relation to bail and other matters. >> Willie Renie, >> I I do appreciate the remarks from from the first minister and as always we will work together where we can to make sure we get a difference because I think the stasis law that they are calling for is something that needs to be thoroughly investigated. Um, and that goes to the central point of my contribution this afternoon is that we must deliver because as I've rehearsed previously and other contributions, there is a great degree of anger and frustration, a belief that this place doesn't work for people, that it doesn't deliver, that it talks a lot but actually doesn't make any changes. People who have endured perhaps 20 years of stagnant wages and cold homes. So therefore, we must deliver. And so therefore um it is I think incumbent upon all of us to try and hunt for agreement as Alex go Hamilton set out earlier on and that's why I liked in the first minister's contribution earlier on the emphasis on a number of different things in terms of work on business on growth on the use of technology for public sector workers the breakdown of silos between different parts of the public sector his introduction of the high growth unit following his discussion with the business community on the more home bodies that I know has been announced previously on the major projects unit. All of that is a good indication that there is a focus on delivery and I think sometimes that focus and that delivery can be incredibly tedious and boring. But actually some of that is some of the most fruitful work because it is meaningful change. Because what we need is in public sector reform is behavioral change and leadership of those who are responsible for different parts of the public sector and that's both between bodies but also inside bodies and sometimes the barriers exist inside existing bodies and not just between them. So that's why I'm rather nervous about the the kind of the rest of the contribution from the first minister where he was talking about the big changes to the NHS and about the care service and looking at local government reform and I'm not against um reform of bodies but I'm not absolutely sure what it it will resolve by changing the structures and the boundaries of those organizations. The minister, first minister knows that we've been we were strong critics of the the National Police Service and I think in certainly in the early years we were right to be critical because the pace of reform I think risked people's lives and in fact I think with the central control centers I think people did lose their lives as a result of the rushed reform. So we are nervous about all these things. Instinctively we are in favor of local power. We are in favor of communities being in charge and I hear that from the first minister. But rushing towards structural reform when actually I believe what we need is behavioral change and real leadership to drive and force that collaboration between different parts of the public sector. For instance, you know, if you look at care, care isn't just as important in with its relationship with housing and with education as it is with the NHS, but we're not proposing to create one big national public service. We will still require leaders to collaborate between the different parts of the public sector. So I would urge the first minister to act with caution when he's progressing these changes because I don't believe that big upheaval lasting years potentially distracting people looking over their shoulders worry about whether they're going to keep their jobs or not is necessarily the answer to deliver the sometimes boring detailed work that actually delivers the change that I think this country deserves. I had so much more h to contribute but I will conclude on that point. Thank you. I call on Craig Hoy up to five minutes. Uh, >> thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today's program for government sets out what this government hopes to achieve over the next 5 years. But Scots have sadly heard it all before because this looks less like a 5-year plan and more like a five-year excuse to dodge scrutiny. food price caps rejected by producers and retailers which are most likely illegal and which will lead to higher prices and no doubt a confected constitutional power row. Local government reform and empowerment from a government that has spent years cutting uh budgets of councils, centralizing services and ring fencing uh their own budgets. more GP walk-in centers despite the dismal attendance numbers at those that have launched already and the mounting criticism from frontline clinicians. Instead, this program for government could have been about growing our economy, lowering people's bills, and fixing public services, something that John Swinny has singularly failed to do. He failed to do it as Scotland's finance secretary. He failed to do it as Scotland's education and skills secretary. He failed to do it as Scotland's COVID recovery minister. He failed to do it as Scotland's deputy first minister. And now he is failing to do it as Scotland's first minister forever for however long he hangs around. But the message from stakeholders across Scotland was clear. Let's take the Scottish Chamber of Commerce. The SNP must reduce the cost of doing business. It must accelerate infrastructure delivery, something that is particularly poor amongst this SNP government. and it must address skills shortages. But can I welcome one of the announcement in the first minister's program for government that there will be additional support for the last pub or shop in any town or village. But how has it come to a position that far too many of our towns and villages are down to their last pub or their last shop because of the SNP's repeated failure to pass on rates relief readily given to it by the UK uh government. But the origins of this uninspiring five-year program for government stem from a manifesto which lacked ambition. A man a manifesto which the commentator Nicholas Sturgeon said had a lack of vision or big picture thinking from her vantage point in lower tax London. Nicola Sturgeon described John's campaign as detached from the big issues bearing down on people's lives. So for the first time and for the official report, can I say that I agree wholeheartedly with the former first minister when she points out that this SNP government is fundamentally failing to address the real concerns of ordinary Scots, failing to failing to meaning meaningfully support Scotland's oil and gas sector, failing to ensure that dangerous prisoners serve their sentences in full, and failing to reduce the size of the bloated civil service. something that Ivan McKe will continue to do unless he is willing to face down Scotland's public sector unions. Today's statement proves that this SNP government is out of step with Scottish people and it contains very little on how this SNP government led by John Swinny will tackle the 5 billion pound deficit it has created and appears to be illprepared to tackle. And it is Scottish taxpayers who by the end of this decade will pay a heavy price for John Swinn's failure. And at the time of mounting cost of living concerns, businesses and households want to see their bills come down. But the biggest bill that many of them face is their tax bill. But as we saw over the course of the summer and confirmed by the Scottish Fiscal Commission, the S&P's fiscal financial mismanagement mismanagement hasn't just made Scotland the highest tax part of the UK. Those higher taxes are failing to deliver the revenues needed to meet the SNP's presence spending obligations, particularly the soaring bill for social security and within that the SNP soft touch approach to the adult disability payment. Turning to public sector reform, I see Mr. McKe is not in his place and I do not doubt that he will come forward with a plan. The SNP are very good at developing plans, but it had a plan to get civil servants back into the office and it has failed. It had a plan to reduce the size and the headcount of the civil service and it has failed. And it and so when it brings forward yet another plan, for example, to reduce the number of health boards, isn't it simply shifting deck chairs on the Titanic? I will give way. >> Mr. Flynn, >> thank you, Deputy Pesidon Officer. When it comes to reducing headcount, should we perhaps be taking advice from the Conservative party who are massively reduced numbers as a result of the election? >> Craig Hoy, >> I see >> I seem to recall the the S SNP member was a member of the House of Commons when numbers were slashed. S SNP numbers were absolutely slashed. But but isn't the reality, Mr. Flynn this we know this is a smaller parliament and you like to try and uh make as much mischief as you can but you can't evade the facts. The SNP is high on tax, low on delivery. It puts benefits over work and criminals over victims. It is gimmick after gimmick from the man whose job you want. And last week we saw the publication of a draft independence bill. An SNP government still obsessed with constitutional politics at the expense of delivering better outcomes for the people of Scotland. This is an SNP government that um that that spends spends more but delivers less, taxes more but delivers less. An SNP government that sets ambitious targets but miserably fails them. And an SNP government that, in the words of its former leader, is detached from the concerns of the people it says it serve serves. Isn't the sad truth this? Scotland simply can't afford this 5-year plan and it cannot afford five more years of John Swinny in the S&P. Patrick Harvey. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I think I've said before in previous PFG debates that any fair reading of a a program for government is likely to find a mix of the good, the bad, and the missing. And I think that's true once again this year. I want to pick out a couple of the the elements that there should be strong agreement on things that that we can welcome and and begin there. Action on the cost of living is clearly a theme that remains important to the government and to the first minister. It should be one that's important to all of us. on some of the most high-profile measures the government wants to take on the cost of living. We will need to see the detail and there do look like some questions that need to be unanswered at the moment. But it's an aim that we should all share very strongly and we should also share the aims that the first minister set out when he spoke about gender-based violence. An aim that we should share and we should welcome serious action taken on that issue. it would stand in stark contrast with those who use that issue cynically as a pretext to attack minorities in our society. So I welcome the first minister's emphasis uh on taking action. I welcome also his willingness to consider meaningful change to local government. I think the first minister is correct his in his analysis that some councils are too small to be strategic and others are too big to be genuinely locally accountable. But I do think there's a concern that some obvious options such as the the balance that we used to have between district and regional councils have been ruled out before the dialogue begins. And I'm concerned also that there seem to be no serious proposals in the government program to reform how we pay for local government. No commitment to replace council tax. There's a bill coming in year one called the council tax bill but only to tweak the bans. So, does the first minister intend to reinvent the structure of local government but leave them still dependent on a tax system that'll be 40 years out of date by the end of this session? That's simply not going to be good enough to move on to some more directly critical measures. I think my my colleague uh my co-leader Jellian Mai was quite right to highlight the issue of data centers. We know that just the proposals in the pipeline already for hypers scale data centers would represent far more than Scotland's existing peak electricity consumption. 24,000 people know this and have signed the Scottish Greens petition to the Scottish government. Even the SNP's own national council has also called for a moratorum. And yet looking at the scale of this problem as it already stands, the Scottish government seemed to want even more of them attracted to Scotland. A problem that's already too big to handle under current planning rules would become even bigger under the Scottish government's aspiration. As for the bus fair cap, yes, I agree that we should welcome the the progress rapidly on Glasgow and the west of Scotland, but the truth is that the national roll out for this is on a far longer time scale than implied in any fair reading of the SNP's commitments during the election campaign. And we also need the detail on the better buses legislation. That's not coming in year one uh of the program, but urgency is needed on that, including a quick solution to remove the panel stage in the franchising process so that we can speed up the change that's needed. Scotland is already years behind much of England on this and we need to accelerate on the proposal for a heat in buildings bill. Of course, I wish that I could have confidence that the heat in buildings bill would end up as a positive element in this program, but given the decisions that were taken at the end of the last parliamentary session, it looks far more likely that this is going to end up as a target with no delivery mechanism attached, no clean heating standard, and no plan to decarbonize heat at the pace that's genuinely required. That would be a massive missed opportunity, not just to cut emissions, but to cut our energy bills and to decouple us from the dependence, the overdependence on expensive fossil fuels. As for the merger of environmental bodies that's been proposed, it remains entirely unclear at this point what the challenges and consequences of that proposal will be. Ministers might well see them understandably as working under a common portfolio, but in reality, these bodies perform distinct and important functions. Functions that can't be sacrificed. As for a few more measures that are missing from this program, nothing at all to implement to actually put serious substance behind last year's vote on a program to boycott, divest, and sanction from the state of Israel and companies profiting from the illegal occupation, the genocide, uh, and from, uh, illegal settlements. The government knows that if it's going to take seriously the commitment that Parliament voted for, far more substantive action needs to be taken on that issue. Nothing either on integrated ticketing. We've heard the cabinet secretary say very clearly that he wants to make progress on that by the end of the parliament, but it simply won't happen without a plan and that plan doesn't seem to be underway. And then finally on what's missing, obviously we're deeply disappointed that there will be no commitment yet on action in Scotland legislation here in this parliament uh on the horrific practice known as conversion practices. The government is still saying should the UK government fail to consider? Well, we already know that the UK government's bill not only doesn't apply in Scotland, even if it did, it's riddled with loopholes. So much so that transactual described it as reading like an instruction manual for abuse. That's the way they described the UK bill that's been introduced by the UK government. We cannot merely copy that agenda, follow it in lock step. We need legislation here in Scotland. Finally, in closing, presiding officer, the first minister says he wants a Scottish state that is rewired and re-imagined. That's rhetoric that matches Andy Barnham saying he wants to reverse 40 years of neoliberalism. Well, if we recognize the need for a new economic model, if we recognize the need to turn that kind of grand rhetoric into a reality, this should be a Scottish government's program for government that sets out how to turn that into a reality from reversing deregul deregulation to expanding public and community ownership in our economy. And there are devolved opportunities with existing powers to make the progress that's necessary. The Greens will continue to push for that progress and will ensure that we bring forward the substantive proposals that will allow the Scottish government to make that happen. >> Michael Mara. >> Thank you, presiding officer. The program for government has to be about seizing our opportunities and facing up to the big challenges that Scotland faces. And the clearest example of that is child poverty, the loss of potential in our country and the affront of great need amongst our young people. And the first minister's declared number one priority. This parliament set a legal target that fewer than one in 10 children should be living in relative poverty by 2030. Yet the latest Scottish government figures tell us that figure today is 21%. That's 210,000 children in Scotland growing up in poverty. Threearters of those children live in households where somebody is in work. There is a very significant distance that we all have to travel. The government's own modeling suggests on current trajectory relative child poverty will still be around 18% in 203031. And that's almost twice the statutory target that was agreed unanimously by this parliament. The question for all of us is what are we going to do about it? I believe the government should establish a cross party commission to bring together the evidence and agree proposals cross party to put us back on track to meeting those targets. I hope it's something that the first minister might consider. In his statement today, uh the first minister, presiding officer did not address the black hole in the public finances that we all know will dominate the next five years of this parliament. And ministers and the first minister included may say that that is a matter for the budget. and we'll hear plenty more about it from the deputy first minister. But it's the policy agenda that has driven that black hole and it can only be fixed by the policy agenda that we need honesty from the government about the state of Scotland's public finances. Only honesty will do and that is the issue that issue of the black hole will define and either drive or destroy the program that the first minister has set out today. It's all that5 billion pounds is the gap between what the government plans to spend and the resources available to it by the end of the decade. And it's a figure that predates the additional spending commitments that the S&P made at the election. Uh we still haven't had clarity as to the status of those additional 1.4 billion pounds of spending commitments made in their manifesto at the election. And ministers will inevitably seek to blame others, but the evidence simply does not support that argument. This is a crisis of the S&P's own making. The Scottish budget has increased by billions of pounds in recent years and the auditor general only last week amid amid a blizzard of panicked independent analysis set out absolutely clearly how we have arrived here. He said these decisions plainly these are all political choices and that's the reality that the government has to confront. For years, ministers have relied on short-term fixes and one-off allocations to balance budgets instead of delivering meaningful reform of our public services. And it's that approach that Audit Scotland have repeatedly warned the government about. Public service reform is necessary, but it cannot now become an exercise in making frontline workers and communities pay the price for this government's chronic failure to manage Scotland's finances sustainably. I think Jackie Billy was absolutely right to say on some of the proposals that the the first minister set out today that there is merit in the headlines, but we will reserve judgment until we have far more detail because there are big conversations I believe that the first minister and his government have started today. Really serious conversations on NHS boards. I would say out from the start I'm deeply worried that the highlands and islands in the northeast are not protected in terms of individual capacity given the specific circumstances that those communities face both in terms of geography and in terms of need. So we have to see that addressed well the the cabinet secretary is saying from from our seat that they are but we haven't seen the provision within that. I know for a fact that there are two chief executives that have been being paid more money in Scotland. one in Glasgow and one in Edinburgh for the last year. And so there is going to be extreme worry across the country that this will be a question. I'm afraid it is the case. Uh first minister, it is the case. And so we know that there's a question as to whether this will be an east board and a west board, but we still do not have that detail. If the cabinet secretary is able to provide it, I would gladly hear it. >> Angela Constance, >> deputy off. The point I I wish to make to Mr. Mara is that he has been a regular advocate for uh his community and the northeast that people could be better served and what I am arguing is that public sector reform is necessary not just for financial sustainability but to ensure that there's equity access across all of Scotland >> and I think that's a very fair point that the cabinet secretary makes but we need to see the plans and the proposals in order to understand how that equity will be provided and because we are absolutely concerned about democratic oversight and accountability in these plans as well because when that is absented what we have is the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital scandal. What we have is the LGL scandal. We have to be clear that proper oversight, proper accountability is required by citizens in order to ensure that they get the protection that they need in their health service. So we have to see the details on that cabinet secretary and I'm sure there's an awful lot more to come. uh on local authorities. We have scant details um around what I think it's fair to say is the first minister's decades long attack on local government in this country. Budgets have been decimated under this government and there's a further half a billion pounds of cuts slated in the Scottish spending review. We know that the first minister believes that education should be extracted from local authorities and now we have social care to be extracted from local authorities and also the ex abstraction of economic development. Now I think that there's a very strong case for some of these issues economic development in particular to be addressed on a regional basis. But again we need to see the detail of how that's going to work and crucially what power is going to be given up by this government and handed to local regions to actually drive economic growth where it is absolutely uh needed. These are big discussions and it is about doing is it the question is is it about doing government better or is it about efficiency because there appear to be very little upfront savings in the proposals that have been brought forward today and we know that the5 billion pounds black hole is not just looming but present. All of these changes, whether it's saving on management as the uh government may uh claim, will require upfront costs in order to actually make those changes. And so it's very little is very inobvious as to where savings uh might be actually realized. And I think we should look carefully at the example of the National Care Service because in the last term we were told at the outset that that was going to be a mission of the the last government. It was to be the most fundamental reform of public services in this country had ever seen. And we have a total and abject failure on behalf of the government to either plan properly to do the finances properly to the point where the finance committee in this parliament had to reject the proposals that were in front of them. So it is a salient lesson I think for this government about the challenges and I would say that the most important thing is that we have clarity on intent. First minister, what is it you intend to achieve? what is driving these plans? If you can tell us those things whether in discussions uh where we will be constructive partners or in this chamber then we can have more clarity and we have a better chance of success. >> Kim Shimalian thank you deputy presiding officer and I thank the first minister for his statement. uh all in this chamber are acutely aware of the financial challenges we face as a nation. We should be focused on facing up to that and doing our utmost to implement solutions that are available. We are presented with an almost unique set of challenges, some of these within our control and some not. So what are the options for fulfilling this program of government? We could raise what are already the highest income taxes further on the wealthy. But the evidence from ICAS suggests that the yield might be lower than a simple calculation because taxpayers can change how, when, and where they receive income. Or we can focus on something which might get support across the chamber. We already have high taxes, but we could use the money from these high taxes on things that raise the growth rate. That would include education, infrastructure projects, and innovative innovative business research and development that delivers. At the same time, we must be upfront with the public in the way that past governments have been at times. I do not point the finger at the SNP alone. Successive UK governments have been guilty of hiding the truth and papering over the cracks. We have more going out than is coming in, and the UK has a major debt to service. So where do we start? It must be our skills gap. These are not political views but verifiable statistics. We have a skills gap in many sectors and we do not have enough workers in the profitable sectors we need to grow. We must promote STEM programs in schools so that students have the entry requirements to get into our centers of excellence in these crucial areas. We need schools to be able to inform pupils applying for universities and colleges where the jobs are located and what skills are required by the marketplace. We need less of our valuable arts graduates ending up in jobs they are overqualified to do academically but perhaps less qualified practically. They end up on low incomes and saddled with student debt which prevents them getting on the housing ladder. They need more help and practical support with pathways that reinforce their chosen degree choice. The number of fee paying students we're having to enroll in Scottish universities is increasing because funding gaps have been rising predominantly from the far east. These students are attracted by degree courses in engineering and biochemistry. The data here speaks for itself. Figures nearing 20% of graduates on some degree courses are taking what they have learned here back to their own countries to grow their economies there. And that's definitely not helping us. I am encouraged with the work the Scottish fund funding council has been doing since 2020 with its review of coherent provision and sustainability. The aim being to align funding of further education with high-paying jobs and pathways to profitable careers. However, I don't think enough has been done by schools to highlight this initiative and more focus on bene beneficial options is required when the widening access program is added into the mix. developed from Scottish government's blueprint for fairness recommendations. The situation is compounded. Many students who have five A at higher level will not get a place if there is another student from a disadvantaged area with 4 A and a B who has a similar application. The result is that someone will end up doing a degree they don't really want or they will go south, go into debt, but critically they won't return to Scotland. More opportunities being available down south. I don't want to attack this program as I would likely have benefited from it myself in the 1980s. But the data from the Scottish Funding Council shows there is a 4% gap in retaining the students on this program into their second year and that is a waste. We also don't have essential long-term data on how these graduates are fairing when they enter the workplace. But we need these this information to make improvements and get the best from the system. Here's a sample of what some of our foremost institutions say on the skills gap topic. Scotland risks producing brilliant ideas that ultimately produce jobs and revenue elsewhere. Education, business, investment and economic policy must work together. The right skills may start at an innovative company, but to grow to global level, investment is required. All very indicative and such a shame therefore that the results of the Scottish National Investment Bank have not fared better for startups. Regrettably, it's not just the skills gap that's holding us back. Managers report that some recruits often turn up for work unprepared, and statistics from an employer skills survey in 2024 indicate this is the position whether a university or college graduate or a school lever. Many have no concept of appropriate respect to their colleagues who will lead, support and appraise them and often no adherance to timekeeping as part of a supportive team. Unfortunately, this occurs across all workplace sectors, whether private, public or supportive third sector. But as as is often the case, none of this is new in terms of what we need. In March 2022, the then finance and economy secretary launched a national strategy for economic transformation and said that the next 10 years would be a defi a decisive decade. Well, how is that fairing? We are now almost halfway there and I can't see much transformation. That document talked about five key policy programs, but by my reckoning we haven't seen much progress. That does not mean that there has been systematic failure because that's not true. But the scale of the challenge I feel was underestimated. The document stated and I quote, "Scotland would be regarded as a great place to live and work with high living standards." Well, not if you live in Glasgow. Susan Aken has asked for an urgent meeting with the finance secretary because community cohesion in Glasgow is at risk due to primarily refugee homelessness. She'll be joining reform next. The document also said Scotland would be an international benchmark for how an economy can transform itself. But we seem to be going backwards. 0.1% growth in the last quarter of 2025. Also a country where economic power and opportunity are distributed fairly. I think people in many parts of Scotland such as the borders and cl manager would disagree. Finally, an outward-looking nation exerting meaningful influence around the world. Well, if you count selling our excellent education off to the highest bidder, that claim might be true. But again, we are going backwards. Alex Massie wrote in the Times last week that we are about to be visited by the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Well, I can report that the finance committee met them yesterday. Perhaps we needed the Scottish high growth unit at the start of the sixth session and not today as the first minister has announced, but I certainly wish this well. Now, while I have the greatest respect for Kate Forbes, her document reads like a PR trailer pitch for a Hollywood Hollywood movie, as so many of these papers do. We have heard much the same today with the first minister's bold plans. The problem is that we've heard it before. centralize or decentralize. We want plans with measurable results of success that actually make life better for people, not more and more plans to keep civil servants busy, such as the health reform we've just heard about today. In short, we need to get real here because many people in Scotland have disengaged from politics. They didn't bother to vote and frankly they expect more. Only when all citizens of Scotland feel they are getting something from this parliament will things improve and the vision of a team Scotland an approach I do support will be realized but we must make progress this session. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I call on the first minister to wind up the debate. A generous 10 minutes first minister. >> Thank you pres officer. Let me begin my contribution in closing the debate by um saying to that I welcome Malcolm Wford's presence here and I'm glad to hear that his um he he is in a stronger position um over his health and I wish him well. Can I also say it's a pleasure to welcome Monica Lenon to h parliament not for the first time of course and there is of course a rather there's rather ungallant term which describes members of parliament who return after a gap as a retread and it was it was used very unforgivingly to my dear friend the late Margaret Euing which she took of course with good grace in all that she said. I think the the the very minor gap in attendance of Monica Lenon does not qualify her for that. But I do wish her well and she asked when I met her in the the ch in the back of the chamber earlier on if I had missed her and of course I have missed her and I welcome her back to parliament today. Um, it would also be remiss of me not to comment on the fact that she takes the place of Anna Sour who has been um I'm not sure if the right word is I'm not sure if I should use the word elevated um but he has certainly joined the House of Lords which some of us found a rather unusual strategy to engineer its destruction which of course was the uh the long-term commitment of Ara but uh um I I I just as I am delivering ing on my commitments to the people of Scotland. I look forward to Anas Sawa delivering on his commitments to the country to abolish the House of Lords. H but I think there's more chance of me delivering than Anas delivering on that question. I'm going to come on to that in a moment. Um but in in all sincerity, let me wish Anna Sawa well. I always enjoyed our encounters here and I wish him well in the work that he's undertaking on behalf of the United Kingdom government. Um this has been a an interesting and a helpful debate with a lot of contributions reflecting on the contents of the government's program. And um I think some of the dilemmas that are always faced in the in a program of this type were displayed by the comments of uh my colleague Patricia Gibson who um who who felt I wasn't going far enough on public service reform. And of course there'll be those that think I'm going too far on public service reform. But the contribution from Patricia Gibson illustrated uh just some of the the really tangible and substantial issues that have to be wrestled with. The comment from Kim Schmillion a second ago about the economy. Um I'm glad that she has recognized the the importance that we attach to the issues around stimulating economic growth in Scotland and I assure our determination to make sure we fulfill those commitments. and Michael Mara um reinforced the importance of the agenda that is being pursued on child poverty which is central to the government's programs is central to everything that I've done since I became first minister and of course the comment that Michael Mara made about the space for there to be cross party dialogue is is is a welcome comment and it's one that I'm going to come back to in relation to how parliament proceeds on the uh on the the taking forward of the government's program. There are of course other measures which I'm glad have commanded support around the chamber. The comments from Alex Cole Hamilton, Jackie Dumbar, um and and Patricia Gibson about violence against women and girls. I appreciate the support and the recognition across the chamber of the necessity of the government to act in that respect. So I look forward to p to come to to to calling on the support of parliament to reinforce the the steps that I intend to to to take and Julie Mai and and Patrick Har of course. Yes. >> Russell Finley >> on violence against women and girls. I just wonder if the first one regrets uh defying Scottish women's aid and victim support Scotland and passing the legislation that made remanding men who harm women even more difficult. First minister, >> the issue of remand is of course a a a judgment that is applied by the courts and it's not and I certainly are not going to start um interfering in decisions about remand that are taken by the courts. The courts have got to make judgments in difficult circumstances. some of the points that Willie Renie made about how remand could be how issues where remand is not given where bail is allocated there can be perhaps further constraints applied in relation to bail I think these are all issues that are that merit examination and I committed in my response to Mr. Reny's intervention to doing exactly that. Now, um, Jillian Mai and Patrick Harvey both talked about the specific issue of the the issue of con conversion practices and I I want to and the wording in the program for government um sets out the government's position, but there is more detail I can provide and would be happy to share this with members of parliament, but the minister for equality, Sama Kumar, has been active engaged with the United Kingdom government on the whole issue of legislative cooperation. And this is one issue where we've made clear that we would like to make headway on a UKwide basis and we will uh endeavor to do that. But I reiterate the point which is in the program for government um document that if we are not satisfied by the progress that is possible to made then we reserve the right to pursue our own legislation. I'll give way to Mr. Harvey. >> Patrick Harvey. Uh I'm grateful to the the first minister and I'm grateful for the opportunity if he wants to offer further dialogue as well, but he has seen the draft bill or his government has seen the draft bill from the UK government. Does he think it's a good bill? Because no one who actually has been campaigning for action on this issue seems to be praising it. Does he think it's a good bill or is it flawed? First Minister there >> obviously there's a dialogue going on with the UK government about the contents of their bill and that's that you know and obviously we have to be satisfied by the contents of the bill which is why we're engaging and I think members would expect us in good faith to engage on that question with the UK government. Um I think Paul McClennon made an important observation which I think puts a couple of contributions into context because Mr. MLAN said that after the election, parties are entitled to come in here and to advance their arguments. And and I certainly feel having won the election that I'm entitled to come in here and to set out the government's agenda. And I just thought it was quite interesting that listening to the speeches by Craig Hoy and Russell Finley, they both seem to have missed the fact that there had been an election and they had done really badly in the election. And actually a little bit of, you know, perhaps you might be it might be it might be an idea to maybe think about changing the contents of their speeches after an election defeat to maybe think about things in a different fashion uh before they come in. And um and and and no doubt and no doubt we're going to hear more about it. But you know I I did I did mention Craig Koy's name and as a as a generous parliamentarian presiding officer I will give way to Mr. Hoy. Can you call >> the first minister for taking the intervention? If he won't accept my criticism, what is his comment on Nicola Sturgeon's criticism of his government? >> Well, first well the the the the absolute obsession goes on from Mr. Hoy. I I I I just simply say I'm absolutely delighted to have won the election and to have won it in a commanding fashion. That's all I'm going to say. And and of course and and this is this is temp's fate that I'm going to mention Mr. Hoy again. So but here goes. But you know Mr. Hoy complains about the government not delivering. And when the government delivers, Mr. Hoy complains about the government delivering. So one of my 100 days commitments and by the way the 100 days commitments have been delivered by the government. One of my 100 days commitments was to publish an independence referendum bill. And Mr. poise complaining about the fact that I've delivered on my solemn commitment to the people of Scotland and I'm very pleased that I've done exactly that. Now to come on to the what what I think is the the important part of this debate is the the whole question of political cooperation and how do we use this parliamentary session because there has actually been in the comments of Jackie Bailey and Willie Renie and Michael Mara uh the creation of some space within this debate for us to in good I think Jackie Bailey used the words in good faith hear the contents of the program for government and that's how they're offered because I've learned about some of the issues that and how we handle particular questions. I've not come in I think there are substantial issues about public service reform that have to be confronted and I've got my views about that but I've not come in here and said this is it. This is what's got to be done. There is space for there to be dialogue and engagement about important questions about how we tackle some of the the points of principle that I set out in the program for government contribution earlier on which is about at what level is it appropriate for responsibility to rest and can that be structured differently to deliver different outcomes and I'll happily give way to Mr. Michael Mara >> appreciate the first minister giving way for point of clarity can he set out for us what role savings towards the 5 billion black hole actually contribute are part of his motivation for the public service reform because it wasn't set out in the statement I don't think it's in the documentation is it about making a contribution to those savings or is it about outcomes or is it about both it >> it is about both it's about making sure that our public I know that I've heard Mr. on on this ground a few times over the years, which is about sustainable public services. That's what I'm interested in delivering. And we we've we've delivered sustainable services all the way through my long and extended career in government. All those 19 years that Jackie Bailey thinks about fondly. Um just just just about just about just about to um just to move into another year as as time progresses. So um so we we've we've we've always managed we've always succeeded in balancing our budget. We live within our means. We've run sustainable public services, but I have to futureproof the service public services for generations to come and that's what my plans are all about. But they're also about improving outcomes because I don't uh Mr. Green is Mr. Green is there. Um earlier on I I I was responding to a question first minister's question from Mr. being a completely legitimate question where Mr. Green on behalf of his constituents is pressing me to strengthen the availability of certain services in NHS high or to I'll rephrase it to be available for people in the highlands in his constituency and I recognize that some of the some of the impediments to fulfilling Mr. Green's concern are the obstructions placed in the way by Highland by by um by healthboard boundaries. Now that's if you Mr. If no allows me to develop my point and and and I'll let him in a second. That's not to say people aren't trying hard enough or working hard enough, but people have got lines of accountability and and financial accountability that make it difficult to provide solutions that might address Mr. Green's concerns because of the structural arrangements of health boards. Now, that is an issue I and I and if I want to address the issues that Mr. Green is raising in parliament, I've got to find a means to do that. And that's why I've opened up this conversation. I'll give way I think I better give way to Mr. Co Hamilton. I'm happy to give way to Mr. Green as well. >> Alex Cole Hamilton, >> I'm grateful to the first minister for giving away. This speaks to the intervention that the health secretary made on me during my remarks. It's not clear if this is the point he's trying to make to parliament, but the concerns that people in the far north have about their health care services is not due to their proximity to where the decisions are made by their health service. By stripping power away from that community, it's going to make it harder to deliver adequate decision-m and a particular focus on those Highland Health needs. >> Minister, >> well, I think that's that that's that misses the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that I want to properly address Mr. Green's concerns, but I think there are obstacles and obstructions in the way of doing that. I don't want to diminish local control or input or decision making. I want to find practical solutions that will address the legitimate concerns that have been put to I'm happy to give away to Mr. Green if he wishes to intervene. Mr. I hear what the first minister says, but all too often um we have a Scottish government here that wants to take credit when things go right and when things go wrong, it's a responsibility of a local authority or an AS board somewhere else. My party leader, Alex Coham, is absolutely spot on. Stripping decision-m away from communities in cases who incidentally already think is too far a field isn't the right approach. >> That's that's that's not the way in which I'm framing this discussion. I'm framing this discussion a way to improve outcomes for members of the public in their communities as close to home as I possibly can manage it while delivering fiscal sustainability which is the point Mr. Mara has put to me and that's the and that's the space that I want to open up now a pathway to addressing that is the helpful contribution that Mr. Renie made to the debate because Mr. Renie has since the election made a number of contributions which have pressed us and I have been quoting him to a number of people around the country because I think it's been such an important contribution and I do this to I do this to convey no ill will to Mr. Renie whatsoever but Mr. already has pressed us to be to focus on improving people's lives, making a difference in their lives. So my program for government is designed to do exactly that to find ways in which we can do some difficult things but with the objective of improving people's lives and that will be at the heart of the program for government that we take forward. Um I'll give way to Mr. R. >> Hello Ry. For fear of incurring more praise, can I just um just encourage the first minister to fully explain that it is important that we break down silos within organizations as well as between organizations. So surely public sector reform is more about culture and behavior and leadership than it is just about structures. and he's in danger of entering a pathway that leads to just debate and anger and frustration when actually we should be focusing on the detail. >> The debate doesn't need to be about anger and frustration. It can actually be a reason debate and that's where I think we're that's where we're an interesting space as a parliament in which I hope I know I'm I know I I'm you know I can be a combative parliament parliamentary contributor never I know it doesn't often happen but I am but I have structured a program in a different way. I've given parliament space. I've not said it's a take it or leave it approach. I've given parliament space to engage in a conversation so that members of parliament respecting their political outlooks, respecting the geographies that they represent, respecting all of the different diversity of the country can contribute to a discussion which will make Scotland a better country as a result. Now, I believe that some of the issues that we have got to confront because I've just rehearsed them at length about the issue in relation to uh Mr. the Greens constitutions that there are structural impediments but there's also cultural impediments and the cultural impediments can be addressed and that's why I've done what I've done about vi violence against women and girls because it starts at the top and I can set the culture for the country and I'm saying on that question about violence against women and girls to all the men and the boys in the country from the male first minister behaviors have got to improve conduct has got to improve and I will make that point loud loud and clear wherever I can. Uh but then it also applies to the culture within organizations. The way in which we try to because if we take issues about for example um individuals who um face who are involved in who who who who have addiction issues in relation to drugs, their issues will not be solved in one neat little compartment. It will take housing interventions, education interventions, mental well-being interventions, all sorts of things. And that's why we've got to put individuals right at the heart of our public services. And that's what the program for government is designed to do. So I I intend to embark on this parliament, having thought about these issues over the conduct, the content of the summer, over the election campaign in a way to try to bring people in this country together to make Scotland a more successful country. and I look forward to engaging with parliament on that in that respect. >> Thank you, First Minister. That concludes the debate on the program for government 2026 to 2031. There are no questions to be put as a result of today's business and that ends decision time. I ask members who are not staying for members business to please leave the chamber quietly.