Romesh Ranganathan: There's A Dark Voice In My Head That I've Learnt To Control | E220

Please welcome Romesh Ranganathan. He's one of the most popular stand-ups around. I'm hosting this [ __ ] I think that all comedians are wired slightly differently. That something happened to them that has made them an outsider in some way. What is that for you? We lived in a nice house. We had a nice car. All the stereotypical things that you mark success with. Then over a period of 6 months, it was complete 180. What was the catalyst for that 180? Well, Shut up, mate. I'm addicted to doing stand-up and it makes me better at everything. But I've got this inner voice that is horrific. It will say, "You're not a very good dad. You're not a very good husband." I did one of about six panel shows and I was in a really bad place and I turned up [music] to each one of them with the steadfast belief that I was [ __ ] at this. What happens when it does go horrifically wrong on stage? It's horrible. The silence, that never gets easier, man. But you learn more from those gigs. I just need to do the best I possibly can at this gig. I'm not in control of anything that happens after that. Don't think about this goal down the line that you're trying to get to. Do this thing brilliantly. If you love what you do and you do that, you're on a good path. This is such a right time, but I've got an absolute stitch-up. [laughter] ARE YOU JOKING? WE'RE HAVING SUCH A nice time. Hello everybody. Thank you for tuning in to watch this episode. Honestly, an incredible episode, but I have to say thank you before we begin because we've hit a million subscribers on this channel now and I It's almost unthinkable. It's I can't You know, I'm speaking for our entire team here when I say it's genuinely genuinely unthinkable. Biggest privilege of my life to get to do this. Means the world that you guys tune in every every week uh to listen to these episodes. So I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you to all of our subscribers. Roughly 65% of you that watch this channel now subscribe to the channel, which is amazing. If you haven't yet subscribed, could you please do me a little bit of a favor? Um I can't tell you how much it helps this channel and how much it's helped us to pull in amazing amazing guests and to expand everything within our operations and how it's also going to help us enable the the year that's to come and all the plans we have. Some huge plans which I'm going to be bringing to you very shortly. But if you can, just do me the one favor and hit that subscribe button. It will be tremendously appreciated by myself and all of our team here. Really really hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you for being here. Thank you for helping us reach this huge milestone of a million subscribers. Let's get on with it. [music] I'm so fascinated by comedians because I find it to be an art form that is both genius and terrifying. Mhm. Um so for someone to want to pursue that career, I'm always intrigued by like why. So can you give me the context that you think from your earliest years might have influenced you taking that path if we go before you're even 10. [snorts] Well, I did stand-up comedy when I was eight, you know, for the first time. Well, like I mean the truth is I fell into stand-up by accident. But when I was a kid, I we used to go to this My mom and dad used to take us video store and they'd go, "You can choose something each and we'd all watch it together or whatever." And my mom always always used to pick like Pink She loved like Inspector Clouseau and like Peter Sellers and all that. So she'd choose all that stuff. And then I discovered Eddie Murphy. I remember like getting out uh Beverly Hills Cop and I watched Beverly Hills Cop and I was just like, "This guy is like so incredible." And then I started watching everything. Golden Child, Trading Places, all of that. As a kid, I was too young to be watching that stuff and my mom and dad had no idea about age rating, so they were fine with it. And then I discovered Raw, which was like his second special that came out, I think. And I remember watching that. And I watched I'd had watched stand-up before on TV like British stand-up. I'd watched a lot of it as a kid and loved it. There was something about watching a guy and he just had a microphone and he walks out in that leather suit and not that I'd ever worn a leather suit or ever will, but like he walks out like it's a rock gig. Do you know what I mean? Like the whole crowd like this massive crowd, they go nuts and they watch a show of somebody just talking. I just found it unbeli- like the low-finess of it. The sort of thing of I'm going to say things I think or my take on stuff and that's the show. There is no more than this. Like do you do you know what I mean? There's no effects. It is just literally I am going to just stream of conscious- The illusion is a stream of consciousness. I'm just going to like talk and you're going to and that's the show. I just found it incredible. And so then we went my family took me to Pontins holiday camp, me and my brother for a like a week and they had a talent competition and all I used to do then was read joke books. Like everything I read was like 3,001 jokes. Like joke books for kids. Like I just all That was all I would read all the time. Just Because of that Eddie Murphy? I think so. I mean, I was just really into comedy. I just loved it. I loved the idea of making people laugh. I loved the idea of doing comedy. I was just so obsessed with it. And so then I entered the talent competition as a stand-up. It was horrendous, but I won. I you know, I won. I beat this kid this kid playing a kazoo and then there's another kid doing a dance thing. Smashed it. Absolutely smashed it. But like even then I really loved sta- I like I just loved stand-up. But the idea that I would do that for a career as somebody from like an Asian background or whatever, you know, like my parents are very much like you're going to you know, we've come over to this country for you to to follow a path and be successful. The idea of doing stand-up as a career was not We were just wasn't ever in there. That stereotype of um immigrant Asian parents trying to make you a doctor or a lawyer. Yeah. Was that Did you witness that first-hand from your parents as in Did they have that conversation with you at any point or was it just kind of there in the background as an expectation? They did They didn't explicitly say you're going to be I mean my dad was pretty laid-back to be honest with you. My mom was a bit more was a bit more kind of dead set on what we were going to do, but you know, there was there was My mom and dad My mom and dad left Sri Lanka for my dad to finish his studies. You know, it was an economic reason, but also there was trouble going on in Sri Lanka, you know, like my family originally Tamil. There was lots of trouble going on with the Sinhalese and the Indian government and there's like a civil war going on and that was affecting a lot of my family members as well. So there's like a lot of push and pull involved in them coming over here. But they never sat me down and had a talk, but every single time I made a decision or talked about what A levels I was going to do or anything like that, I was conscious of the fact that they were really worried about what I was going to do. They You You know, for example, not going to university was not an option for me. Do you know what I mean? Really. I mean, unless I really decided to rebel. But they just assumed I was going to educate myself to whatever level and then go off and follow this path of being a successful whatever. Um So yeah, that's kind of it was kind of I felt it. Do you know what I mean? But they they never had an explicit chat, but I did feel it. When I was reading through your story and going through the notes on your autobiography, it kind of I I I really could relate to um your childhood in many ways because it seemed like your childhood had very distinct um opposing chapters Right. one might say. And from came I came to the country when I was a kid from Botswana and the first chapter was great. Right. [laughter] But that's the chapter I honestly can't remember Yeah. because I was below the age of 10. My siblings can remember it with great um great detail, but I can't remember that chapter. I'm told about it. I'm told about the the presents and the everything kind of being normal. And then the second chapter, which I can remember vividly because I was slightly older, is when kind of chaos ensued and everything seemed to fall apart. What was that first chapter for you like? I To be honest with you, it's very similar to what you're talking about. You know, I remember I remember being very comfortable and I remember my dad you know, all the stereotypical kind of things that you that you mark success with. My dad wore a suit to work. Do you know what I mean? We had a nice car. We never really wanted for anything. We lived in a nice house. The people that my fa- like my family were like had a big social circle. They were you know, all of those like external signifiers, that was all happening. So like my kind of recollection My To be honest with you, my recollection was of being spoiled, to be honest with you. Like I had just loads of stuff. Do you know what I mean? Like my mom and dad my mom and dad bought us loads of stuff, but they we'd go out to eat a lot. [sighs] You know, my dad was doing well. He was doing really well. Do you know what I mean? And so Yeah, similar to you, I don't have vivid memories of it, but I do have a general memory of like you know, if I asked for a thing for Christmas, it was pretty sure it was pretty like I was going to get it. Do you know what I mean? For the first eight years or so. So it's really super comfortable. Do you know what I mean? And then it literally was I would say over the period of 6 months everything got completely turned upside down. It was like it was just a complete 180. What was the catalyst for that 180? My Sort of unbeknownst to me, my dad was kind of was not doing great at work. He was starting trying to do other It was sort of messing around. It was What What What do I mean by messing around? Like He was just a bit of a loose cannon. Do you know what I mean? I think he'd got got to his head a little bit. He drank a lot. [snorts] He was a bit of a womanizer. Um and that was starting to get noticed at his work and then he started having ideas of like going off and doing other things. He ended up getting I think he got fired from his job and then he started trying to do these kind of import-export deals, which at the time we thought, "Oh, that's my dad's new partner." But as it turns out, it was illegal. But like he Basically, we we ended up getting out The first thing I had was the My mom said, "We're going to have to move out of this house. This house is being repossessed." Right? So, my mom and dad couldn't keep up their mortgage payments. And then we ended up moving to this house on this council estate that my dad had got off a friend or was renting off a friend. We were there for a little bit. And then while we're at that house, my mom found out that my dad had been sort of sleeping regularly sleeping and was starting a relationship with this other woman. [sighs] And was intending on leaving us and the like leaving us to go and start a life with this other woman. And so that threw my mom's kind of world upside down. And then basically the the the the sort of trigger for everything going really kind of mad was we hadn't seen my dad for a couple of days. And my mom said, "I'm going to It was a mad I can't remember how old I was. Maybe like 11 or 12 or something." My mom said, "I'm going to take you to this woman's house, and I need you to go to the door and ask where your dad is because I've not seen him for 2 days and I've not heard from him." So, she took me around to this house. We went to the door. And I said, "Where's my dad?" And she said, "Your dad was arrested 2 days ago." And it turned out that they'd been in the middle of doing some sort of deal or something and they're they were the target of some sort of police investigation in Leicester. The police stormed in or stormed in and arrested them. And my dad was being held and ended up going to prison for he was sentenced to 2 years. So, so then everything kind of went it sort of went to chaos. Like my dad was in prison. We ended up being housed in a bed and breakfast uh by the council cuz they didn't have enough housing. So, my mom, my brother, and I were staying in uh in a room in this bed and breakfast in Harlow. And um my mom like had she'd not been working but she got herself a job as a cleaner. And then we were going to school from there. Do you know what I mean? Like and Yeah, it was just like it just sort of like everything completely flipped, man. And so it was kind of Yeah, it was just a complete 180. Do you know what I mean? The start of that 180, your dad was an accountant, right? Yeah. And then he'd lost his job. Yeah. Cheated on your mom. Yeah. Gone into sort of financial disarray. Ended up in prison. Yeah. In the In the process of what, 6 months or something? 12 months? the sort of the house got repossessed. Uh we found out about I I think that sort of period from start to finish maybe 12 to 18 months, I think. And at that point you were in At the start of that you were in private school, right? Yeah. Yeah, so I'd got a scholarship. So, um I'd I'd I'd done this I I was I was at school and then what I didn't realize is that my mom and dad were struggling to pay My dad had lost his job and was trying to make his way in other ways and was struggling to pay for the fees. And so the first I realized about it was like accountants from the school were turning up to my lessons with like an invoice going For you? Yeah, to pass on to my parents because my my mom and dad were in such arrears. And then eventually I got One day I came home from school and dad said to me, "You can't You're not going back tomorrow." Like we've got to take you. I think it's like midway through through term. He said, "You can't go back." Because he was just getting freaked cuz he'd like he was in such arrears. He was worried about what would happen even if I turned up. But you know, he just not that they were going to do anything to me. But I think it got to the point where he just had to take me out. He He couldn't see a way of of paying any the money anymore. So then like 2 days later I was like enrolled at the local school. Did you say bye to anybody at school? No. No. I mean I got There was a mate of mine that I'm still in touch with now. Um who I kind of let know what was going on or whatever. But um nobody else, no. I just like one day I was there, one day I wasn't. When I look back on my own life, I it's taken me maybe like 30 years to realize like the underlying shame. And so when I was looking through your story, I was trying to understand if there was that same feeling of kind of underlying shame. Well, like to give you an idea, so I I went to I started at the state school and I really enjoyed it. And like I had I had a slightly opposite experience to you in terms of like when I was at when I was at the the the private school, I was one of the only Asian kids there and I got loads of like I got a fair bit of racism. And then when I moved to state school, there were more kids of color at that school. I still got I mean I got I got into my fair share of scrapes with racists. But like that It's a weird thing. I was really enjoying my time at school and it was actually a respite from being at home because like when I went home, it was just like everything's gone to [ __ ] My mom's really sad. Like and obviously I I I wanted to support her in that. But school felt normal. I didn't tell anybody at school what was going on at home, right? So, I'd go to school and that for all they know like everything's like totally chill. But and to to get like So, my dad went to prison on the 26th of March. My birthday's on the 27th of March, right? And I went to my mates My mates organized like a little like get-together, watching films and stuff. I didn't tell them any I didn't tell them. I didn't tell them because I just like I don't want anybody to know about this. So, I turned up to the like to this birthday get-together the day after because I didn't want to pollute my school experience with that. Do you know what I mean? So, So, I just didn't tell anybody. And like I had really embarrassing experiences where when we moved out of the bed and breakfast, we were put in this flat and there's no phone in the flat. There was a payphone downstairs. So, but I didn't want my friends to know that I it was a payphone. So, I had to like make them promise me they were going to call me exactly this time and then stand [snorts] by the payphone so that nobody from any one of the other flats were going to answer it. And then Do you know what I mean? So stupid. [laughter] But I was I was just so wanting to nobody to know what was going on. There's a cost to that, there isn't there? Do you know what I mean? Like that that kind of living with the the sense of embarrassment almost. Yeah, I I I guess like there's there's lots of little things that there is a stress at trying to live a double life like [laughter] that. You know? You know, things that would normally be okay, you suddenly panic over. So, for example, there was a girl I liked and we were like we we we're living on this council estate. We've been put in a house. We'd put in this house but we couldn't afford carpet. So, it was just we just had wooden like just the wooden floors in there. And they thought it was fine but just no carpet. So, it looked it looked strange. And then we're walking around the estate and then this girl that I liked said, "Oh, do you mind if I come in and use the toilet?" I mean, [laughter] I nearly had a panic attack. I said, "You can't You I I was I was really thinking like, "What do I do here? I can't say no, you can't use the toilet." Like I started thinking, "What can I say? My mom doesn't like girls using the toilet in my house." Like what what can I possibly say? In the end, I said I think I said, "WE'RE BETWEEN CARPETS." [laughter] YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS. YOU GET THE CARPETS taken out. You just wait for a couple of weeks for the floors to settle and then you get the new carpet put in. [laughter] But yeah, all that kind of stuff is just it's just so stress it's so stressful, man. You would you described yourself as a lazy kid. Yeah, I really was, yeah. You're not now. You're not a lazy person now. So, I still do think I'm quite lazy. I I [sighs] I just was like all of my school reports said, "Romesh is wasting his ability. Romesh doesn't apply himself. Romesh doesn't um and that was true before everything. Not to the same degree, but it was sort of true before everything kind of went topsy-turvy. But it was definitely true afterwards. You know, a lot of teachers say to me, "You're not applying yourself at all." But I sort of think for a while I went through a phase of just having given up, to be honest with you. Cuz it's it's sort of gone so to my mind, my world had been turned upside down so completely, I couldn't really see the point in it. I I just sort of I just wanted to have a nice I I wanted to enjoy myself and that didn't that meant not working. It didn't Initially, it did not give me You know when you're talking about when you wrote down your list of targets, it sort of had the opposite effect on me. I just thought, "I don't give a [ __ ] anymore." I've seen my dad work really hard. You know, I didn't know the full details of what he'd done. You know, all of that sort of stuff came out in the wash. But like at the time I think, "I've watched the man work really hard and then he ended up in prison. He split up with my mom." I mean, they got back together eventually. It's like it was terrible. And I actually went through a phase of thinking I know that I went through a phase of thinking that we were just cursed because like so many so many things so many bad things happened in quick succession. I actually went through a phase as a kid of thinking that happiness is something that will always elude me. Like I will never be comfortable. You know, this I'm never this is just what we're supposed to be. You know, like my parents are Hindu. They talk about you know, they talk about God a lot in our house. And so suddenly it's like maybe God just doesn't like us, man. Do you know that that I genuinely had that genuine belief that like maybe this is just how it's supposed to be. So, it kind of pushed me the other way. I stopped working. I started bunking off. I just wasn't I just wasn't in the zone at all. What was your opinion of yourself during that time? It's a great question because to be honest with you, what my opinion of myself is now is something I really struggle with. And And like I've never thought about the origins of that, but um the the truth is I think, when I've come to reflect on it after that, I remember thinking this at the time I remember thinking I don't know what I would have ended up like if we'd have stayed comfortable. You know, I don't know what person I would have been if I'd stayed comfortable. And I would I'm telling you now, if that hadn't have happened to us, I wouldn't be a comedian now. I wouldn't be the person I am now. Like there's so many things that defined who I am. I was defined So much of me has been defined by that period. Um But what I would say is my opinion of my opinion of myself was and continues to be something I really struggle with in terms of it being absolutely like like rock bottom. You know, like you know, like you just I just have uh I have a prick living in my head that talks to me all the time. Do you know what I mean? And so And that is something that to this day, as I'm sitting with you now, I have to contend with. Do you know what I mean? I've got like this inner voice that is horrific. Do you know what I mean? It's like a horrible horrible person that I've got like, you know, this horrible voice in my head that just like regardless of whatever external um evidence there is or whatever whatever else happens, I will always have this kind of this inner belief uh [sighs] that I'm sort of a bit shitty. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm not I can't do this or I'm not good at this or you're getting away with this or whatever. Imposter syndrome, I guess is a is an oversimplified way of of describing it, but yeah, it's something I've I've sort of had to not had to do with. Something I've dealt with for as long as I can remember, really. I got really I I got chills all over my body then and I don't really know Do you know why it is? It's because it really breaks my heart to hear that that, right? And it genuinely does like cuz And it also, I think, people don't understand the privilege that they have if they don't have that in their head. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's it's such a difficult thing because cuz if you don't have that you don't understand why somebody would have that. You You get what you're talking about. Snap out of it. Do you know what I mean? Like look at your life and go, "Oh, successful comedian." Yeah. You know what I mean? 100% You sort of go And it's not that I'm unhappy with my lot. It's not that I want anything to It's nothing external. I don't need anything external to change. I just have that You just have that. You know, I've just always mentally had that. And yeah, like what you just said, I totally relate to because sometimes I've not You don't tell people because you just sort of go, "They're going to go, what? What you on about? Like what What What are you talking about?" But people that get it get it. Do you know what I mean? And it's like I I do think you know, it's something that I've kind of got involved with as much as I possibly can is to sort of encourage those You know, those kind of mental health conversations and stuff. I think we've become much more open about it than we were in the past. But when I was at uni, I I went to see a therapist that like they had like these free therapy sessions for students. And I went along to one. And I did like a whole course or whatever. I remember telling my mom about it. And she like freaked out. You know, because somebody What do you mean you're going to a therapist? Like what Is there something wrong with your head? You know, like she like really like Cuz to her mind, does that mean you're mad? Like Do you Do you know what I mean? Like she didn't have that same It's like her understanding of it. Now, it's completely, you know, she's completely uh you know, she's her attitude towards it is very different, but yeah, it's just something you have to contend with. And and like at the moment, as I'm talking to you now I've got coping mechanisms and I'm sort of on top of it, but I'm I'm always sort of this close You know, if I get if I It can be something really little like I don't exercise for a bit or I don't hydrate properly for a few days or I don't I don't get enough sleep, I'm back. Do you know what I mean? Like I go dark. I just go dark in my head. You know, like you kind of the voice comes You know, the voice comes back. But you know what I mean? You sort of you start getting down on yourself. And you have to be on top of all of those things, like What does the voice say? It will say, "You're not a very good dad. You're not a very good husband. If I come to do this podcast it will go, "Why are you bothering to do this? You've got nothing interesting to say." Do you know what I mean? Like "You're going to try and get away with this. At some point, somebody's going to tap you on the shoulder and go, 'We all know. If you leave quietly, we won't say it.' If You know, that kind of thing. You know, I I remember like doing a run of like I was particularly busy. I had like one of about six panel shows, like different studio things over 2 weeks. And I was in a really bad place. And I turned up to each one of them with the steadfast belief that I was [ __ ] at this, right? And I've got to try and get away with it as much as I possibly You know, like I was just in a bad place. I turned up. And I'd be sitting there and like, you know to be a comedian, you've got to be loose and like chilled out and relaxed. And it's almost like being a You know, I've read a lot about it about being in a flow state, you know, being in the pocket, whatever you want to call it. You can't be in the pocket if you've got a voice in your head going, "You're crap at this." So, it's like yeah, it just you just go through periods of it, I suppose. The um when you went to see that therapist in school, why did you go? So, there was this very specific trigger. So, what happened was is I had saved up, cuz I've always been really into music, and I'd saved up to get this like hi-fi. Yeah. Um like this really cool bit of stereo equipment. And I was too scared to take it to uni cuz I just thought somebody's going to nick this or it's going to get smashed up or whatever. So, I left it at home in my bedroom at home. And my mom and dad had a lodger. And he was sort of he was somebody that had come over from Sri Lanka that they were kind of helping out. And he'd been sleeping I'd been sharing a room When I came back, I shared a room with him. And they'd moved that piece of stereo equipment, right? Because he needed to put some stuff somewhere or whatever. My reaction to something quite nothing was like so It was It was like I really like was like felt like my mom and dad were trying to move me out or they didn't care about my stuff. Like And then I'd like really got pissed off about it. And then later on that evening realized that that was a massive overreaction. And then recognized that I wasn't in a good headspace. You know, like I just felt like for me to have reacted like that probably was a sign I was cuz I felt like I was going through some [ __ ] as well. You know, like I You know, you don't feel right in yourself. And then when I reacted like that, I thought I need to I need to sort of speak to somebody properly, you know. I'm not in a good I'm not in a good place. And so, like I think like 2 days later, I looked into it and then started going. You know what's um really has, I think, changed my life is the amount of times I've had this exact conversation with someone who is maybe a comedian, maybe not, about the voice in their head. Yeah. And until I started doing this podcast, I had absolutely no idea. I couldn't comprehend the thought that there's people that have a voice in their head that is somewhat against them at times. Right. Right. Right. I couldn't comprehend it. Yeah. And so, for me, like this isn't the first time I've heard this. This is maybe maybe not even the 10th time. It's really eye-opening for me. Have you ever And this is I mean, this is almost an impossible task cuz you're like trying to piece things together in hindsight, but have you ever developed a perspective or an opinion where that voice comes from or why you have it and someone else might not? Mm. No, I don't I don't know. Is it You know, like [sighs and gasps] Why have I got it and other people haven't? I I don't know. It's something I've thought about. Particularly when I'm talking to people that don't have it or don't understand why I've got it. Um And I don't know. I I I I don't know if it's like I mean, I'm being super super pseudo psychologist here, but I sort of think that You know, when I said to you about I sort of felt like everything was against us. Yeah. And you sort of go through this period of like during your formative years of a lot of things going badly or going negatively. You then start to see that as your default. And then if something goes right or something's going well, then that is against type or that is against, you know, you're supposed to have [ __ ] happen to you. You're like You're bad stuff supposed to Or you're supposed to have bad experiences. And so then maybe that's on I mean, I'm just freestyling it, but maybe that kind of gets hardwired into you so that even if like you have positive things you kind of you you you kind of don't accept them. And I also think of like sometimes I've reflected on times when I was a kid, like really young and done things that I would consider be selfish. I remember like this like have a vivid memory of being horrible to my brother. And the voice goes to me, "That's you at your core." Like when you're when you're being nice, that is conditioning. But that is what You know, I've had that thought where that you fundamentally is that person, that that nasty person. But what you've done is like social conditioning has taught you that, you know, you allow your brain to go down those those thought pathways, you know? I sat with Gabor Maté. He's He's maybe He's like considered to be like the leading um psychologist therapist on specifically childhood trauma. And his he was handed off during the the Holocaust when his because his mom was trying to save him, so she gave him to someone else. And he talks to me about how we interpret We are narcissists as young children. We think everything is about us. If parents are screaming, that's because of me. Yeah. You know, and and how children are these like great like huge narcissists. So, even though his mom was doing an act of love, he almost internalized it as an act of abandonment, which meant that he wasn't good enough. So, he he talks about how he lived with this kind of sense of not being good enough. The other conversation I reflect on, which kind comes to mind as you're talking is Steve Peters who wrote The Chimp Paradox. And he talks about Have you read it? It's a great book. He talks about two periods. He goes, "Under the age of like 10, you can develop goblins." And he refers to a goblin as something that we can never really shake because of the the the neural pathways in our brain are are pretty much changed for good. And and we can often not remember it because we don't even start to form memories until we're like three Yeah. or whatever. And those are your goblins. But then he goes, "After 10, it's really your gremlins, which are things we can overcome." Yeah. So it's it's interesting that we can have these sort of goblins, but also not remember where they came from. And they can also be just like narcissistic childlike interpretation of events. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I think I do sort of agree with that. And I think like one of the things I discovered is like in in conflict and things like that, you know, there was this uh David Foster Wallace did this like commencement speech that I read. And it's about like this thing that we're all hardwired to believe that we are the center of the universe, right? So like when you're going to work and somebody cuts you up or somebody takes ages in front of you at the supermarket, it's like, "Why is this happening to me?" And then as soon as you flip the switch and go, "This isn't happening to me. I'm like, this person's got their own thing and this person's got their own thing." As soon as you do that, your ability to just chill out is miraculous, right? And and I I I do think that that is part of it. Like, you know, the belief that bad things happen to me. What am I talking about? Do you know what I mean? What are you talking about? Do you think you're that important that that that they've got time for destiny to go, "Nah, bad shit." What are you talking about, you absolute god complex having [ __ ] You know, that's the truth of it. You see what I mean? It's just some stuff happened, man. It's not destiny. You're not on some route. There's nobody's got anything against you. Just like, "What are you talking about? Who do you think you are?" Do you know what I mean? So it is that. It is that you kind of like trying to combat that. You said you learned coping mechanisms. Yeah. What are those coping mechanisms? Um That sounds like one of them what you just described there, which sounded like perspective. Yeah, one of them is perspective. Another one is just is completely is completely surrendering yourself to the moment that you're in. So like uh if you complete What I found is is like a lot of kind of your So this inner voice or whatever or a lot of your worries and stuff like that are things that are not happening to you at that time. You know, it's like, "I'm worried this is going to happen. I'm worried I'm [ __ ] at this and this is going to happen." And the the the the the And one of the things I found is like to just completely be of this moment and this moment alone. And and sort of Yeah, just just be present, you know? Like so if I come here, I [snorts] could come here going um "If this podcast doesn't go well, then people are going to get in touch with me on social media and then, you know, uh blah You know, you can start getting yourself in a thing. You're not good enough to do this podcast. You shouldn't have been interviewed. Have you seen the other guests he's got on this podcast? It's a joke. And why why has he done this? And blah blah blah." Or if you just go, "I'm just going to come here and enjoy this podcast." And you know, and I'm just going to be here in the in the chat with you. You're just you're the way you experience things completely changes. Do you know what I mean? You you just you just become you just have a different experience of the same thing. You can experience two things completely differently. Like And the truth is, all of these things you're catastrophizing are fine. You know, like if I go if I'm go if I'm crap on a panel show, I don't get booked for that panel show again. So what? Like who gives a [ __ ] Do you know what I mean? Like that's fine. It's totally cool. And then the other thing is to just kind of actively be aware of when I'm getting like that. You know, like sometimes you can't necessarily stop it, but I go, "I've gone dark." Do you know what I mean? You you sort of go, "Oh, this is happening, but this is it's okay to feel like this. I don't need to block those thoughts, but they are irrational. And I just I just know what's happening. Do you know what I mean? I need to get my nutrition in order. I need to get down the gym. I need to get a good night's sleep. Whatever I need to do to sort myself out, I need to do a bit of like you know headspace or whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? To try and get myself back on an even keel. Whereas before, before I had those kind of coping mechanisms, who knew when I was going to come out of it, you know? I just would submit myself to it completely and then it would be like chance that I would come out of it, you know? When you reflect on your your journey with mental health, was there has there What period of your life was the most difficult? In terms of mental health? Yeah. Um I would say my late my late teens into my kind of early 20s was really challenging cuz I remember reacting I've got loads of memories of reacting really badly to to things. Um like irrationally. Like I would have the top reactions like I remember like I didn't really do very well in my A levels cuz I was just like pissing about. And then when the A level results came, I just thought this is the end. I can't carry on with my life. You know, I really like was like, "I can't." You know, I was I was I was I was thinking about taking my own life like regularly. You know, like yeah, there's loads of times that you know, there's loads of times during that period when I thought about it. I did think about it a lot. Um And I I'd fantasize about it. You know, I'd like to think about how I was going to do it. I think about how easy it would be after that. I think about the repercussions after I'm gone. You know, I'd think I'd like I'd spend time thinking about it, you know? So um And that was kind of the toughest time. And then as I kind of got older, um yeah, it sort of got I still had the same issues, but I started to kind of be able to to deal with them a bit more effectively. And you know, like I managed to shut off the voice. You know, let me There'd be long times I don't have any voice at all. You know, like it's just gone. And then occasionally sort of go dark again. But yeah, that was probably the most challenging time. You know, there's a there's a stereotype about comedians and them you know, their perspective of themselves not be not being happy or whatever. There's that like long-enduring stereotype. And I've sat here with Jimmy Carr, etc. And he's told me He actually said to me, he said, "You should ask You should ask comedians not are they depressed, but like who in their family was depressed?" Which I thought was an interesting one. What's your whole observation as it relates to you on that like stereotype that comedians are either depressed themselves or their family was or their mom was or they they had someone in the home they were trying to cheer up. I don't I don't hm I don't know if I think that all comedians are depressed. I've said after a long discussion. [laughter] It feels like I've supplied a lot of evidence to the contrary. But I don't I don't think all comedians are depressed. But I do think that I think that all comedians are wired slightly differently. Certainly all the really good ones. Do you know what I mean? Or the ones like something's happened. They've had something happen to them that has changed the wiring that has made them an outsider in some way. And and it it might be depression, but it might be you know, it might be a change in circumstances. It might be a bereavement. It might be whatever. It might be a class shift. It might be their parents you know, there's something about comedians that just they're just slightly different. You know, their wiring is slightly different. I do genuinely believe that cuz I sort of whenever I talk to comedians who I really like, after a while of talking to them, you go [laughter] I've spotted it. Yeah, there you go. There it is. Do you know what I mean? They've all got that. They've all got a little bit of like, you know, Yeah, they've all got a little bit of faulty wiring, I think. Or I don't mean faulty. I mean wired differently. Different. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What is that in your words for you? What is that different wiring that's made you like a like pulled magnetized by the career of being a stand-up comic or comedian? A writer. I don't know. I think that like sort of I I think the speed in which [sighs] the speed in which everything changed, you know, the the sort of my life experiences as well as the fact that I was sort of drawn to comedy anyway. You know, all of my family I love my dad was my family sort of all pretty comedically, you know, that that they're all my my my la- the love language at my house is taking the piss out of each other. Do you know what I mean? Like, [clears throat] you know, my mom and dad and my brother and I just rinse each other all the time. That was that was what I knew. That's what my kids are like. That's what we're like in my house, you know? And I think that that's kind of contributes to it. But I think that you know, again, I'm being sort of I'm speaking from a position of deep ignorance. But like I think having seen the normal trajectory for my dad and the trajectory that they wanted for me go so spectacularly wrong has allowed me to accept taking a different path. Do you know what I mean? Like I I think had that not happened, I probably would have gone, "I need to get like a regular job like and follow this trajectory that my parents want and I need to follow the the the the milestones of success that everybody kind of attributes." Mhm. Whereas this thing allowed me to go, "Well, do you know what? I'm just going to do the thing I really want to do and let's see what happens." Do you know what I mean? And initially that was, you know, before I was in comedy, that was teaching. I didn't do teaching cuz I wanted to make Well, you don't do teaching cuz you want to make money. But I I wasn't doing teaching because I wanted like respect from the community. I did it because I love the idea of teaching children. And then I ended up moving into comedy and I just sort of thought I actually kind of I kind of have attached less weight to financial remuneration, to like having the nice house, to all of that. And I just want to do this I I I just want to be driven by wanting to do this thing. Do you know what I mean? Because if you chase the financial thing, it can still go horrifically wrong. So, why am I doing that? Do you know what I mean? I might as well chase it That could still go wrong, but at least I'm doing something I enjoy. Do you know what I mean? And that first You you know, I was reading about your early sort of gigs in like pubs and stuff like that like eight people or whatever. That first That first time a gig went well, maybe it was a Was it Butlin's your first? That was my first when I was at Oh, yeah, yeah. How did you feel up on stage and the minute you walked off stage when it went really well? Well, I can tell you a really specific gig, man, that like it was quite a bit into So, I was You know, you were doing all these pub gigs, and I started to get to a point where I was starting to do well at these gigs, right? And I felt like, okay, I'm starting to get all right at this. You know, for that level, do you know what I mean? You certainly couldn't have put me on at the Apollo at that stage, but like I was like I was starting to feel like I was starting to do well in these gigs. And what I hadn't done what I'd never done is I'd never turned a room. So, what I mean is whenever However the gig was going, I would go on and follow suit, right? So, if it was a good gig, I'd probably have a good gig. If it was a a tough gig, I'd still do all right, but I'd have a tough gig. The first time I absolutely buzzed my tits off is it was a tough gig. I was on second. [sighs] And like the host had struggled, the first act had struggled, and then they got me on, and I started and they were quiet, but by the end of the gig it was like I was like having a great one. And that to turn a like that was the first time I'd ever taken a room from being quiet to being a great gig, and I lost my mind. I mean like I was just like the adrenaline was just insane, man. Like I came off just like And you have to hide that, right? Because you know, you don't want to walk off just going, "Yeah, man! [laughter] Yes! Absolute smash time!" So, I had to like swallow that down and just go, "I've got to leave quickly so I can scream in the car." I felt I felt in Mate, that I remember like as the gig was turning, I didn't want to dip out of the Cuz as soon as you go, "This is going well," you're out of the moment, right? So, I had to like I had to just like just keep doing the gig, keep doing the gig. Like had a great response, and I was like, "Oh my god, that felt amazing." It was unbelievable, man. Amazing. And has that kind of been your relationship with stage where that's the real like that's the that's the pinnacle in terms of like feelings and emotions and like I guess like self I don't know. affirmant Um I don't know. I mean like I I definitely enjoy the buzz of doing live stand-up more than anything else I do. And like nothing else really matches up to I really do enjoy all the other stuff I do, but nothing can really compete with stand-up. I think it's partly because of the possibility that you could really die on your ass. Like that is exciting that it could go horrifically wrong. But But this is something I was going to ask is as someone who said that there's that voice in your head and things can trigger it. What happens when it does go horrifically wrong on stage? It just depends cuz like the truth is your mindset changes, right? Cuz like when I started doing stand-up if I did badly it's probably cuz I was [ __ ] right? Whereas like now, I I I feel like I'm all right at stand-up. And now the gigs that go badly, you need those gigs. You know, like it's like going to the gym. You know, if I'm trying to write a new tour I've got to write new material. So, I go on with 10 minutes of new material, and I try it out. If I If it goes for nothing, I'm disappointed because none of the stuff's worked, but it doesn't it doesn't make me think I'm a [ __ ] comedian. I'm disappointed These people are going to leave thinking Romesh was crap tonight. I can't do anything about that. But you're sort of going, "This is part of the process." You know, you're like, "I'm going to the gym. I've got to like you learn more from those gigs." Do you know what I mean? And so it's still Don't get me wrong, it's still horrib It's horrible. Saying something and then looking out [laughter] at the silence. That never gets That never gets easier, man. But you're sort of going, "This is what you've got to do." It's like when you're you've got to take risks in the small rooms so that when you do the big rooms, it's better. You know, like you know, you want to do stuff that's on the Not necessarily on the edge, but you want to do stuff where you might do an act out that you wouldn't normally do, or you might talk about something you've never talked about before. And the risk is you might tuck into a big plate of [ __ ] But when you're in the big room, when you're doing your tour you'll go, "I wish I'd taken more risks back then." Do you know what I mean? So, you can't It's kind of a different It's kind of a different process. Having said that I've done a corporate gig where I've done an ass and I've absolutely horrific. You know, like you It's Oh god. [laughter] It's just so awful, man. There's something really surprising about someone who attests to having that like tricky internal monologue with themselves Yeah. that would then put themselves in such a high-risk situation. [laughter] I know. I know. I know. I know. You'd expect You'd think someone would just stay at home and just avoid any chance of reinforcing that negative voice. Waking that prick up. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's amazing, though. The honest truth is I would have that voice regardless of what I did. So, I might as well do something I really love. Do you know what I mean? And I just absolutely like I'm addicted to doing stand-up. I'm addicted to it. Even if I don't have a tour to prepare for, I'll go and do a gig. You know, I can't not gig. And it makes me better at everything. So, if I'm doing a travel show I'm funnier on the travel show if I'm regularly gigging. If I'm not gigging, I'd be worse on that panel on that travel show. I'd be worse on a panel show. I'd be worse talking to you now. Like you know, you're just You're just exercising that muscle of being on stage. I just feel I'm addicted to it. Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will make your virtual meeting experiences, I think, 10 times better. As some of you may know by now, Blue Jeans by Verizon offers seamless high-quality video conferencing. But the reason why I use Blue Jeans versus other video conferencing tools is because of immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected to the employees or customers you're trying to engage with. And now, they're launching one of their biggest feature enhancements to impact virtual events so far called Blue Jeans Studio. I actually used it the other day. I did an a virtual event using the studio, which I think about 700 of you came to. TV-level production quality, all done by one person with very little technical experience on a laptop. So, if you've got an event coming up and you're thinking about doing it virtually, check out Blue Jeans Studio now. Let me know what you think cuz I genuinely believe I know this is an advert and I'm supposed to say this, but I genuinely believe it's the best tool I've seen for doing really immersive, simple but high-quality production virtual events. It is that time of year again where my life becomes incredibly reliant on Huel. I'm busier than ever. I'm trying to be nutritionally complete in all that I do. I'm trying to make sure I get all of the vitamins and minerals that I need in my diet. And Huel has been for the last 3 and 1/2 years the primary reason as it relates to my diet that I've been able to be nutritionally complete while also being incredibly productive. I always find that when I'm most busy, when I'm most sort of sucked into my work, my diet falls by the wayside. That's the trend that I've seen in all of my life, especially when I'm stressed. That's when I I end up resorting to foods that aren't nutritionally complete or healthy for me. Having Huel on hand has been a game-changer not just for me. I see it in my team. We have two Huel fridges in this building that we record the podcast in. Um and it's become a a crutch, I guess, a health crutch, a positive health crutch for all of our team. Thank you, Huel, for creating a product that has helped me and helped my health stay intact in my busiest days over the last couple years. Back to the episode. So, you went and became a teacher. Yeah. For a while. Um and at some point you you make the decision to reach out and swing onto that next branch. I'm trying to understand that that sort of pivotal moment and like what happened. What made you take the the leap? Crazy, I mean, I know comedians when they start out don't get paid a huge amount of money. You run at a loss for a long time. And you were you had a kid on the way. Yeah. In the process of you taking that leap. Yeah, logically it was foolish. There's no getting around that. But um well, what happened was I started teaching and I was really loving it. And then I am I just wanted to do stand-up as a hobby. Like all loads of teachers have got hobbies, right? You know, so how many teachers are in bands, right? So, I just thought this is going to be my thing. I'm going to do stand-up. So, I just started doing gigs. And then it started to go really well, and then somebody said to me "You know, you could do You could definitely do this for a job." What did you think when they said that? I just didn't hadn't occurred to me. Well, that's a lie. It had occurred to me, but I didn't think you you don't There's so many people trying to do stand-up, man. Like there's so many people. It's so like what are the chances that you're going to be able to make a living out of it? It's like so slim. And also, I just hadn't seen it as a career thing. But yeah, somebody comes to goes It was like It was actually a competition. I was doing a competition called So You Think You're Funny in Edinburgh. And I was in the I got to the semi-final, and it's like one person got gets through to the final, and I made it through to the final. And then one of the judges came up and said, "Oh, the reason that we put you through is cuz as soon as you walked in, we go, 'This guy's going to be a comedian.' Like you just look like you're going to be a comedian. You can definitely do this for a living." So, there's just something about about you we just go, "This guy's going to be a comic." And so, that's when I was like, "Oh, okay." And then my gigging then had a bit more purpose in cuz before I was just like, "I'm just going to try and get good at this." You know, that. But then now I was thinking, "Oh, maybe I could do this for a job." And then um my agent So, so then I got an agent, and the agent said to me, "If you really want to give this a go, you're going to have to leave teaching." And so I talked to my wife about it, and we were like, "Okay." So, I decided to leave at Christmas. So, you give it like a half term's notice or whatever. And um Didn't you get caught by the Oh, mate. [laughter] This is [gasps] so bad, man. But like basically, I was head of sixth form. Well, actually I was junior head of sixth form. And um I don't know why I had to make that that clarification. [laughter] Literally, nobody cares. Sorry, it was I'm pretty sure Ramesh is junior head of sixth form. In that period of his life. Anyway, why did I make that correction? Anyway, um so I So basically, I got asked to do this like this show at the Edinburgh Fringe like every night. It was just like compilation mixed bill show effort. And it's like a big opportunity. And um but I was supposed to be back for A-level [laughter] A-level results. So I just got in touch with them and I said um my my wife's poorly and so I can't I can't I feel embarrassed saying that. I can't make it back. And they went, "Okay." And so I said, "I'll be back as soon as I can." And then I just was like, "Okay, that's fine. I've got away with that." And then I came back to school the first day of September and nobody in the office was talking to me. Like it was like a proper frosty atmosphere and I thought, "Oh god, what's happened here?" And then I opened my computer and it said, "Could you come to HR?" So I went to HR and they uh they said to me the lady said to me, she's lovely. Um she said to me "So you couldn't come back because uh your wife is poorly." And I said I said, "Yeah." And And as soon as that she said that, I thought, "This is over." Right? And then she goes, "Right." And then she just opened this drawer and just pulled out this folder and it had like reviews, me appearing on lineups. Like it was a comprehensive dossier of what I'd been up to at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And it was just so tricky cuz I just thought that would be great to have. [laughter] But But But as soon as she said that um she was like, "What do you want to do?" She goes, "You can't work with that team anymore because they don't want to work with you anymore because they like they feel so like they're so pissed off with you for what you've done." She said, "We can move you to another head of year team." And I sort of knew that I was going to leave to do comedy at that stage. So I thought it's not fair to go and join another head of year team only to leave. So I just said I'll become a master like you know, I'll take a step down and and and be a master teacher and not have any of that responsibility. And so I just did that for the remainder. But when I left the thing that kind of uh um turned things upside down again was like 3 days before I was due to leave teaching, my dad passed away suddenly of a heart attack. And so um Yeah, it And so then basically, what happened was is that the period after my dad passing away we had to sort out my mom's finance. It turned out my dad's finances were a house of cards. He'd got this pub that he'd been sort of borrowing money from the house to finance and all this It was like a nightmare. So it just meant that it was like the start of my comedy career was pretty tough. Like we were just start throwing ourselves trying to figure that out. How did you deal with that? How did you process the the loss of your father? [snorts] It was really difficult because um I was really close to my dad. I mean, my relationship, as you can imagine, was very troubled with my dad because, you know, I'd seen this guy I'd seen this guy kind of want to leave us and, you know he'd been sleeping around a lot with a lot of different women. And um I'd seen my you know, when we're in the bed and breakfast, I'd seen my mom cry herself to sleep every night. And like it was really hard, you know, that's all because of my dad. So that was really difficult. And I remember like I'd had loads of arguments with him. He tried to be a parent again. I resisted because I felt like he didn't want to be a parent. How can you come back in and start So you know, there's very difficult. But then as we got, you know, later on in his life we got really close again. And you know, I'm I'm absolutely just delighted that when my dad passed away, I was I I had a really good relationship with him. But it was hard, you know, like my dad was the person I was most like in my family. My mom and my brother are very similar. And I was very And I'm very similar to how my dad was. So I found it really really difficult. I found it really really hard. And um the thing that I feel really sad about for him is that sort of when he passed away, he hadn't really got himself into a comfortable position. You know, like everything had gone wrong and he was trying to work his way back up. But you know, my recollection of my dad right up to the day he died was like absolutely working his ass off and kind of chasing his tail, you know. So that was that is a bit of sadness in that, you know, I kind of think I wish he'd had it a bit easier in his life. You know, sometimes I think you know, I'll be honest with you, if my dad was still around, I would be broke cuz he would have burned through all of my money that I'd made from comedy. Like my dad was like such a He's so irresponsible with money. So um but yeah, there's a bit of sadness there. If you could have gone back to Ramesh when your father was alive in his last 5 years, would you have acted differently in any way? I'm always so curious about this because I'm in a position where I'm fortunate enough that my parents are still around. And I I spend time often forecasting the things I'm going to regret. Is there anything where you think, "I wish I'd said this or I should have, you know Yeah, [snorts] I mean So I I Well no is the honest answer. I think that you can be in a position where you don't feel that. I mean, look, you're always going to feel like I should have said I love you more or whatever. But I remember when I was 18 I'd I'd come back from uni and I'd been out like with some mates getting drunk and I hadn't told my mom when I was going to come back and I came back later than I said I was going to. And I walked in pretty inconsiderate and drunk and my mom and dad are sat in front of the TV. And my dad said to me, "How can you come back at this time?" And I said to him, "How can you even talk to me about what I should be doing in this house?" And then I just launched into a monologue about how he had no right to tell me anything that I did in my life. How he wanted to walk away. How can you come back in here and tell me that I should be doing whatever after what you've done to mom, after what you've done to me and me and my brother. Like what are you doing? Like what You know, and I just went into this rant and he sat there, mate. As I'm telling you now he took it from me. And like, you know, you think about you know, Asian culture, you don't talk You know, my dad was really laid-back, but you don't talk to your parents like that. Do you know what I mean? But he sat there like he took it. He took every word from me. And I stormed out the house and my mom watched me have this conversation. Ordinarily, like my mom would have uh picked me up on it, but she didn't. And I never spoke to my dad about that conversation again. So like I went out for a bit. I came back in the next day. We never spoke about it. My never My dad never asked for an apology. I never apologized to my dad. We never spoke about it again. And if my relationship with my father hadn't have improved after this point, it would have I I I don't know how I would feel about that conversation. I I It would be something that And even now as I'm saying it to you, I made up with my dad, but it kills me that I said that to him. I don't disagree with anything I said. But it does kill me that I said that to him. But when it was his 60th birthday my dad's got loads of brothers and a sister. A lot A lot of them came over from Canada and Australia and to see him. And I wrote in his card "Thank you for being a great dad and somebody I look up to." And my dad opened the card and he said to me He like read the card and he went really quiet. It was like in the middle of quite a raucous family get-together. And he opened the card and went really quiet. And he just said to me, "Do you honestly mean that?" Like he just didn't believe that that was my view of him. And like he couldn't like And then I realized up to that point, my dad had just thought we'd not He just thought we weren't cool because of what had happened in the past. And he goes, "You He said to me, "Do you honestly mean that?" I said, "Yeah, of course I do." And then I felt, you know, I felt like I feel like now my dad knew what I thought about him. Do you know what I mean? And And the what I think of my dad is that he was a deeply deeply deeply flawed human being that had a great a lot of great things about him. And And you know um So yeah, when he when he passed away, I felt really I felt really close to him, but you know, there's loads of things like There's things where like if I'm being honest with you, when we started to go when things started to go wrong, I was quite materialistic. You know, can I have this? Can I have that? Why can't I have that anymore? What What are you doing, you prick? Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like why are you valuing that stuff? I remember like I've got a really vivid memory of wanting the new Public Enemy album, right? It was like 8.99 on cassette or something. And my dad said, "Yeah, I'll get it for you." And then on the day, he just didn't have a tenner. He just He didn't have a tenner. He didn't have any money. And I like flipped out. Do you know what I mean? I flipped out. You promised me you'd get But But that time, you look at the context of it. You'd be forgiving If you try If you're being forgiving to that Ramesh, everything's going tits up. This album is like some sort of security. He wants to listen to that. It's some sort of normality. Do you know what I mean? And it's a promise as well. Exactly. Exactly. And then he couldn't in the circumstances. What I should have done was gone, "Okay, cool. I'd love to get it." That's what a good kid does. I'd love Could you get it for me when we can? Or I'll find another way to get it. But as a kid, you sometimes interpret that as like you don't love me. Maybe on a deeper percent. You know what I mean? Yeah, 100% and it's something that I'm really conscious of with my kids now because you sort of go I don't want them to get the message that I don't love them. So But then you run the risk of like buying them everything. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's such a difficult thing. I love you, have it. I love you, have it. PlayStation, yes, I love you. Like, hoodie, yes, I love you. Trainers, yes, I love you. And then he goes, "Hold on a minute. This ain't good. These kids need to hear no." So, yeah, it's a tricky one, man. What about your mom? She seems to have been this real warrior throughout all of this turmoil, and I was reading some quotes. I know she did an interview where um she just said that her the center of her universe was you two, his brothers, and she would have done anything to you, including becoming a cleaner and taking other jobs in shops and stuff like that. She seems to be a kind of a real hero throughout your story. Yeah, I mean she's like a she's amazing. You know, you you think about um you know, she she came over from Sri Lanka. My she was, you know, 19, 20 when she came over. She grew up in a tiny village. She come gets thrown into this new country. She tries to make her way, make new friends. Her husband is immersed in the world, in the country much more than she is, because she's a stay-at-home, you know, wife and mother. And she's like, you know making her way. And then her life gets thrown upside down. And she gets to a position where she has to single-handedly raise her two sons because her husband's kind of dipped out. And and and on top of that, she's got to deal with the heartbreak of what her husband has done. As well as go, "Well, I've got to like I've got to brush my shoulders off and like and start and and support these kids." It's like amazing It's amazing. You know, it's amazing. And so, like you know she she's like a hero of mine for for for how she's been for all of that time and how she continues to be now. I mean, don't get me wrong. She loves spending money. And she loves being recognized. And she loves a celebrity like being a celebrity. She loves being on TV. All of that. But I love I'm delighted. I'm delighted that my mom's period of life now, after what she went through, is being on TV, being comfortable having her house paid off drives a nice like great, wicked. Like, do you know what I mean? Like this is amazing. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is amazing. I mean, don't get me wrong. I do sometimes have a go and go, "You don't need that, Mom." Do you know what I mean? Like, you like chill out. Yeah, and like, you know, she does things that annoy me. Like, for example, she crashed her car. She wasn't happy with the courtesy car that were offering. So, she then said to me, "Romesh, you need to give a guy that works at the insurance company two tickets to your tour because he upgraded my car." So, she does stuff like that. And like so, but but, mate, she's like what I'm I mean, she's incredible. You know, I can't you know, my you can't say I can't say no to her. Do you know what I mean? Like she doesn't Well, there's you know, it's debatable whether she takes the piss or not, but like my mom's amazing. She's amazing. And like yeah, I I I I owe a lot to her, you know? So, she is she is a hero of mine, definitely. Does she know that? Does she Have you ever said to her what what you think and feel about that period and how she behaved? I have said that to her. What I would say is that sits in direct contradiction to how many times I've phoned her. Do you know what I mean? Like like I I tell her that I love her. But I don't get in touch enough. For as much as she'd like, I don't see her as much as she'd like. So, um yeah, I probably should sort that out. I mean, that I should probably sort that out. But um [snorts] but she knows. She knows what I think of it, yeah, definitely. I've got no doubts in my mind that she knows what I think of it. When did you make it? And what was the the catalyst moment? You know, make making it is kind of like a there's a so much assumption in it that there was a moment where everything changes. That's why I it's a bit of a shitty question if I reflect on that. But like, when was what was the the first stone that fell or the first domino that fell that created the cascading event? I hear about this figure in your life called Shawn Walsh. Yeah. And the impact he had in believing in you and being very patient with you. Yeah. I love that because we can all think of that that I can think in my life of that person that like bizarrely had faith in me. Yeah. A little bit more than I did in myself. Yeah. Yeah, well it's an interesting one with Shawn cuz basically what happened was he saw me at a gig in Brighton. And like he liked like the set or whatever. And then he was going on tour. And I was like so, but at that stage, if you was tour support, he basically he asked me to support him on tour. If you're tour support, you drive you drive the act. You drive the main act. So, I'd go and pick him up and and at that stage, I was so broke that um you know, sometimes I feel I don't know you get paid after the gig. Like, you know, after you've done a run of gigs. Sometimes I thought I don't know if I I don't know if I've got enough money for petrol to like go and get him. It's like it was like proper like I was like really running it on fumes financially. And um so, I was picking him up, taking him to gigs. And like that money from those gigs was basically keeping our bills paid, you know? If I didn't have those gigs, I don't know what we would have done. And then during that time um I one of the things that he offered to do that I never took him up on was I couldn't pay the road tax on my car. And I had some money due to come in from a gig. And I said to Lisa "When this money comes in, I'll pay the road tax." Your wife. My wife, sorry, yeah. I said I I said to her, "When when when this money comes in, I'll pay for the road tax." Anyway, we came home from the shops and the car was gone. And they'd impounded it for not having road tax. And I phoned up and I said, "Um how do I get my car back?" And they said, "Well, it's a £450 fine and it's £150 for every day that we have the car for." So, I said, "Enjoy the car." And then I put [laughter] the phone down. And I said to Lisa, "I'm really sorry, we don't have a car anymore. I don't know what to tell you. I can't afford like there's no way every day I spend trying to get that £450, we've got to pay another 150. It's just mad." And then I told Shawn about it, and he straight away goes, "I'll give you the money to get a car." He goes, "I'll just lend it to you cuz I know you're good for it." He goes, "I know you'll start making money from comedy and you'll be able to pay me back." And I never took him up on it. But saying that was huge. Like, it was so huge. Um anyway when we were on tour, he started doing a show called Stand Up for the Week. And that was like they did topical material and you had writers working on it. And he said to me "Can you write me some like write some stuff for the show?" Like, and it Actually, what he started doing is he started going, "What do you think about this story?" And I'll tell him he like he goes, "You know, what comedy angles have you got on this story?" And I'd talk to him and he'd like go, "Okay, okay." And little did I know, he was trying to help me out, right? So, he was trying to test the waters. So, he goes, "Your angles on this da da da." Then he goes, "But can you send me some stuff? Like, send me some stuff you've written." And I remember sending him some stuff and he goes, "This is all [ __ ] I can't This is unusable." And he goes, "Try again next week. I'll send you the stories, have a go." And then I did it again, and he goes, "Some of this is good. Most of it is shit." And then I did that and for a couple another couple times. He goes, "Right, do you want to come into the writers' room?" He goes, "I'll get into the writers' room and and you can sit in and like do some stuff." So, I sat in, and then I became a writer on Stand Up for the Week. I started becoming a writer on Stand Up for the Week. And then he did a show called Shawn Walsh World. And he got me in as a writer on that. And then they did a press launch for the show. And they were doing a comedy gig as part of the press launch, and Shawn got me on that comedy gig. And I did the gig, and the guys that produce Live at the Apollo were there for that gig cuz it was like the same sort of production house that do the show. They I had a great set. And 2 days later, they phoned me and asked me to be on Live at the Apollo. And like at that time the money that you get for doing Live at the Apollo basically would pay my bills for 6 months, right? And so, I didn't have an agent at the time. So, they had to phone me directly. We were dropping the kids off at nursery. And I got got the phone call. I was like, "Romesh, this is the guys from Live at the Apollo. I just wondered if you wanted to be on the next series." And I just went, "Hold on a sec." I was like, "I'm doing Live at the Apollo, man." And I went, "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel I can do that." And straight away I go, "I can do comedy for another few months." You know what I mean? I can I I I I can pay bills for the next few months. I I don't know. It might come to the end of that few months and I was still not [laughter] not not got anywhere. But I've just bought I've just I've got 6 months in this game still. It was like it was incredible. And that is down like, you know, Shawn got me that, man. Do you know what I mean? Like he he was like giving me work that was pay you know, I'll never forget that. Then you did Live at the Apollo. Yes. How did that feel? It was unbelievable, man. It's like it was such an iconic show. Um I heard your your dad always used to say to you when you were younger about you doing Live at the Apollo. [sighs] So, so when I started gigging I was trying to get stage time. And it's quite difficult like, you know, it's quite difficult to get a gigs. Like, there was a good open mic circuit. It was quite difficult to get gigs. But my dad was running a pub at the time. And he said to me, "Just run a gig here." And like, you can host the gig and like you can book people, book your mates or whatever. He goes, "We'll do it like" and I go, "Okay." So, I started running a gig there. And like, when I did my first gig there, he'll go to me, "I don't understand why you're not on Live at the Apollo." I said, "Dad, I've got like 4 minutes of gear." Like [laughter] and it's not great. It's not as easy I said, "If you If If that easy to get on Live at the Apollo, everyone would be doing it. Do you know what I mean? But he used to he was got he kind of veered between being quite harsh and being like he he he he always thought I was going to make it. Like he was he had no doubts. He was like, "You are going to make it as a comedian." But then he would come and see me at gigs and he'd go, "The first guy was a lot better than you tonight." Like he'd go, "You need to think about that cuz like you were like you go you did fine, don't get me wrong, but that first guy was great. Like that's who everyone's going to remember after this gig." And he goes, "So think about it." So he was like he would give me like honest and heartfelt criticism but within the remit of within the context of the fact that you are going to make it, but I'm just telling you tonight you weren't good enough. Do you know what I mean? So was it bittersweet when you did Live at the Apollo for that reason that he he wasn't there at that time A little bit. I mean the whole thing, man, is that my dad never saw me really I mean I started doing the circuit I mean like he didn't my dad died before I became a full-time comedian. You know, so he's not seen any of it. He saw like me doing these [ __ ] gigs and he used to come to all those gigs and he started to see me do some circuit gigs, which were like, you know, they were like you felt like you'd made it, you know, playing a 400 seater room on a Saturday night. Well, it feels great. You like you feel like I'm in show business or whatever. But he never really saw any of that. He never saw me do any TV Oh, no, he did see me do one terrible bit of TV. I did Soccer AM. Um that was like my one thing that he saw me do. And it went terribly. So he never he never saw he said he never saw me have a terrible time on TV. So yeah, it is a bit bittersweet, to be honest with you. Your run from that point of Live at the Apollo to where you are now incredible. As a comedian, I mean there's very few people that get to sit at that top table, as you said as you identified when you were a teacher, but to be one of those sort of stand-out comedians that everybody knows is really really incredible. Now when I reflect on do you take that do you take the your your body language is quite telling. [laughter] You were uncomfortable and awkward. yeah. Um I I just feel like um I feel really lucky. I just feel like so much of that is outside of your control. Do you know what I mean? Like that's why I feel like I feel a bit like um I don't want to I there's part of me that doesn't want to accept that. Do you know what I mean? Like accept that comment that you make. You sort of go there's so much luck to this. You know, I I think comedy is a meritocracy up to a point but then you just get lucky and you know, so I I I do feel really lucky, but and don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful, but Do you work hard now in your in your estimation? Well, I work a lot. I mean, there's no doubt about that. Whether I work hard or not is another question. I mean, I just like everything I do is like fun. I know that's such a wanky thing to say, but like I love doing stand-up. I love doing panel shows. I love doing travel show like so it doesn't ever feel like I'm working hard. The only struggle I would say is that I'm away a lot. Do you know what I mean? And like I I'm kind of saying to my family I'll see you in a week, like you know, that bit I've had to sort of I've actually had to take I've had to sort of take action on really cuz sometimes when you're doing a lot of travel shows it's not really fair, you know, to be away as much as I have been in the past. But I don't feel like I work hard. Like I really love what I do like I love what I do so much. And I know that's like a really privileged position to be in. And sometimes I'm going to be honest with you, if I'm working on a script at 3:00 in the morning because I've got like I've got to meet a deadline, I do think, "Oh God, this is [ __ ] I am working hard now." Do you know what I mean? But it's still fun. I'm still writing a script about some guy I'm still writing a script being trying to be funny. You know, that's what all of my day is. When you've come from where you come from and you believe that you're lucky, is there not this kind of overarching or this driving force that's like, "Fuck, you could lose this at any minute." You know. I mean, you think about it like I my my dad was going all right and then it all went wrong. And then I was a teacher, I took a gamble on comedy and then we were broke. So I've had two examples of like of it going you know, everything going. So definitely there is part of me I don't consciously think that. There is definitely part of me you know, when you think about how much how much you're willing to hustle. I think part of that comes from feeling insecure. Yeah, a little bit. I do think so. I do think so. But now what I would say to you sitting here now, if it all went if I stopped being on TV now or like the phone stopped ringing or whatever, I'll be cool. It's fine. Do you know what I mean? I just I just don't I'm just not worried about that anymore. You know, like I will always do stand-up and if TV stops and all that will stop all that kind of stuff stops. I feel kind of comfortable. I'm I'm all right, you know, it's it'll be fine. You'll see me down the park and you go, "That guy looks like that guy that used to host League of Their [laughter] Are you are you I hate I hate this this word, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. Are you happy? I know that I've talked a lot about my inner voice and all of that and how I've struggled with that. But I am happy, yeah. I I I do I do consider myself to be happy. I I think like I've got a great I've got a great situation. I you know, I've got a beautiful family. I'm happy with being able to um to do nice things. I'm sort of my my mom's in a good position. My brother's in a good position. I love my job. You know, all of those things. I do feel I do feel happy. Do I have dark moments where I descend into into like troubled times? Yeah, 100% but that's not happiness isn't buzzing off your tits the whole time. Do you know what I mean? What is it? I think it's like going I'm in a state of I I'm in generally speaking, it's like, you know, it's like the stock exchange, you know, you're going to have ups and downs, but generally speaking you're on a decent you're on a decent trajectory and I feel like I am, you know. If one of your um one of your boys, Alex, Charlie, Theo, comes to you and says, "Dad, right, I'm going out into the the world. Based on your ex your lived experience, what is what wisdom would do I need to know, Dad, to to make it in life, to be happy and to get to where I want to go? What are the things that spring to mind that you would impart on those boys?" Well, you know, you asked me about me being lazy and and I still believe I am lazy. And the way that I have managed to life hack that is to do things that I really do enjoy. So I think for them choose something that you really feel passionate about, that you really love. And don't for me personally don't think about this external this goal down the line that you're trying to get to. Do this thing brilliantly. Do you know what I mean? Do eat like every single thing you come today do that to the best of your ability. So when I do a gig it doesn't help me to think about what this gig could lead to. I just need to be great at this gig. I just need to do the best I possibly can at this gig. I'm not in control of anything that happens after that. So every single step of the way you try and do that the best that you possibly can. If you do that, if you love what you do and you do that honestly you're you're on a good path. They have a relationship, don't they, these two points in the sense that when you love it, you can become a master because you do it for fun. Yeah. Hard like things that feel like [ __ ] stuff, like things you don't enjoy, it's hard to master. Yeah, but also the other thing is even if you do enjoy something like if I do a panel show and I and I'm thinking about what the potential career path of that if I do well on this panel show then somebody will see me on this and then I'll get booked for that. And then if I start getting booked for that, maybe somebody will offer me my own show. If you sit in a studio with that in your head, God help you. Do you know what I mean? All you've got to do it you I'm not in control of that. I I don't that's so outside of I can't do anything about that. What I can do something about is being as good as I possibly can in this immediate circumstance. That's all I can do. And then everything else takes care of itself. Do you know what I mean? And it might happen, it might not, but why am I thinking about that? All that will do is tighten me up when I'm here. I need to be like I need to be in the moment. I need to just be loose and having a good time and then not worry about that. It reminds me so much of what Sir David Brailsford said to me about the British cycling team. He said one of the first things he did when he came into that feeling cycling team was get them to stop thinking about the podium. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Because of all the all the emotional impact that has when you're racing, when you're thinking about the medals or and even when you're you're in training, thinking about the podium is is not conducive with being productive and focused. His whole thing was like, "Can we find a way to be 1% better today?" Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's controllable. When people when find when they find that gain, they have that sense of momentum and it's exactly what you've described there. And like in focus on the controllables and not the fear that's induced by the anxiety of like, "Oh, what happens if next that you which 100% man. Which is which kind of which goes against the self-development community who are all like, "Five-year plan it." You know, like Yeah, I know. I know. I I did I did think to myself, "Do I need to do that?" But I have no plan. I like, you know, I don't know. I just think like it's like, you know, when people go and lots of people I know that are really successful do this where they go "I want to get a BAFTA by whenever, right?" To my mind, I just think there are there's so many variables outside of your control to to get in a BAFTA. Like why would you give yourself a target that's so outside of your like so many things could could happen that are nothing to do with your ability or anything to get you a BAFTA. It's like there's a jury. Somebody on that jury might not like you. You know, like there's so many uncontrol Why would you do that to yourself? Do you know what I mean? It's like what I can go is I want this show to be really good. I want this show to make me laugh. I want to make something I'm proud of. I can do that. Do you know what I mean? Like that's that's inside the realms of possibility. Seems like a much happier psychological world to live in to be to live in the controllable than to be like Cuz then you don't get the BAFTA, the unmet expectation of that person on the jury that didn't like you. Yeah. It's like you're right. It's like unnecessary torture. Yeah. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they're asking it for. And the question that's been left for you is, "How will we make progress in solving the crisis of meaning today?" Oh, what an absolute stitch-up. [laughter] Are you joking? That's literally WHAT IT SAID. [laughter] SHE'S LIKE SHE'S LIKE I'LL I'LL GIVE YOU SOME CONTEXT. YEAH, GO ON. Cuz I remember that [laughter] Oh my god. We're having such a nice time. [laughter] Oh my god. [laughter] Yeah, go on. Get forward and stitch-up the next person. But um [snorts] basically the the guy was talking about how life expectancy for the for the last 2 years has begun to drop. And what he pointed out was that it's it's to do with a sort of a a broader epidemic of meaninglessness in people's lives where they're turning to opioids, suicide. And those are the things that are contributing to this crisis of meaning. So he's saying, "How will we make progress in solve this crisis of meaning where people's lives don't feel meaningful um enough so they're turning to opioids, they're becoming depressed, they're you know dying by suicide. He's saying, "How do we go about so- solving that today?" [sighs] Well, I don't know. But, what I would say is one of the things that I noticed during the the pandemic was like when people's jobs were taken away or they couldn't do their jobs and people weren't able to socialize, people's identities completely disappeared. Like they they just didn't know what they were. Like, you know, you go, "If I'm not going to my job and I'm not seeing people, I'm not doing things, what the what the hell is this?" Do you know what I mean? And I think that if people that had other stuff that they could do, I mean, creatives were able to like do stuff and find some purpose and do stuff, not necessarily for people's consumption, but just to sort of to sort of scratch that itch. I think if you can get people to to allow themselves to kind of engage with things that are outside of this kind of I'm doing this for this and I'm doing this If you can get people to to engage in things that are for their own kind of enrichment outside of fi- you know, outside of a job and outside of all this, then I think you that's a way of equipping people sort of more effectively to to find that, I guess. Would be a freestyle answer to this stitch-up question. agree. No, I completely agree. I We've talked a lot about that a lot how the arts and um realizing that we can all be artists. It's not just a job title. Um even if you're a lawyer, you can pursue that. And all that the teachers pursuing those bands they're in. Um and I can I reflect on the huge impact it's had on me becoming starting learning to DJ in the middle of the pandemic. That's what I did. Really? Yeah, how are you getting on? You know. I'm not I'm not I'm not going to sell out any festivals just yet. I did my first gig the other day. I'm [ __ ] but I'm at like the I'm at the the top end of [ __ ] Yeah, got you. So, how are you getting on? I I do a hip-hop show on radio. Well, no. Well, I I I I No, but I don't I don't DJ on the show. I just talk. And some like, you know, I just play you know. I don't mix on it. Okay. So they gave me a challenge. I'm just giving I'm just telling you this. So I was learning to DJ. They said they knew I wasn't into DJ. So they gave me this piece of paper on the show saying, "Romesh, by the end of this series, we want you to do a 20-minute mix for the show, right?" And then as we were talking about it, they go, "It'd be great and then you can do like regular mixes da da da Anyway, I went off and did the 20-minute mix. I submitted the mix. They played it. I've not been asked to do another one. [laughter] THAT THAT THAT that perceived start of a series of Romesh mixes has evaporated after they heard that first one. ask for feedback? No, I don't want feedback. [laughter] If they If they don't ask you for another one, I don't need that feedback. I know what the feedback is. Practice. [laughter] Romesh, thank you so much for your time today. Um huge honor to speak to you and your story is is because of the the way I can relate to it, it's been incredibly inspiring. And I appreciate your honesty. I'm I like I said, when you were talking about the voice in your head, I literally my whole body had these goosebumps. [sighs] And I felt this huge wave of sadness because I don't think people realize and people that have the privilege of having a a positive voice in their head won't We don't I don't understand. Yeah. You know, I don't understand that the idea that my my head can turn against me. We need to have that conversation more cuz it helps us to under- like have empathy. Yeah, yeah. You know? So thank you so much. No, thanks for having me, man. Um I was really enjoying it up until that last question. Well, [laughter] you can stitch someone up now. Let's do this. Thank you, man. [music] As some of you will know, Intel has been sponsoring this podcast for a little while now. And this makes the search for high-spec laptops super easy because all you have to do is look for the Intel Evo badge and you'll have everything you need. The thing that's great about the Intel Evo platform is that you still have so much choice and that's key for me. 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