Responding to Online Collection Requests - Panel Discussion | NDF Online Sessions

Well, Kiaraoto, um we've got about 40 people, which is great. Um so, we'll go ahead and and get started because um this is a jam-packed session. Um and we want to make sure that there's time for questions at the end. Um so, no, Harimai, welcome to our NDF online session, responding to online collection requests. And this is a bit of a slightly different um NDF session um today as we have a panel discussion. So, we have three fantastic speakers. Um, Stacy Smith from Auckland Council Libraries, Harley Cooper from Toranga City Libraries, and Rowan Miller from Hamilton City Libraries. [clears throat] Um, so this is actually the third in a series of co-created webinars with Auckland Council Libraries and co- Valerie Love Touingua. My name is Valerie Love. I am the senior digital archist at the National Library of New Zealand um here in Ponke in Wellington. Um and I'm also an NDF board member. So before we really start things in earnest um just a few housekeeping notes um to keep the session running smoothly um we ask that you keep yourself muted and also keep cameras off um so that way the focus can stay on our speakers. The session will be recorded so you will have a chance um to review and we'll share a link to the recording and any links to resources mentioned in the presentation um by email the next in the next few days. Um questions and comments are most welcome. Um please do use the chat feature to ask any questions. Um because some of the questions might apply to all panelists, we're going to save the questions until the end of the discussion. Um, and so before we um get into the group discussion, we're just going to give each of our our three panelists a few minutes each to set the scene with how things work at their organization. Um, and so our first panelist today is Stacy Smith. Daisy Smith is the research and heritage services manager at Nepatika Cordo Otamaki Makoto Auckland Council Libraries and she leads the development and management of the library's research and heritage collections and is responsible for the delivery of researcher services both in person and online. And Stacy joined Auckland Council Libraries 10 years ago after spending the prior decade in the corporate world. And she describes herself as a true library nerd in very good company here. We love that. With a passion for delivering great experiences for people who use research collections and services. And so with that, I will hand over to our first panelist Stacy Koto. Uh thanks for that introduction. Uh and thanks so much to all of you joining online for um what I hope will be a really interesting discussion today. This is definitely something we suggested because we've been talking about it a lot ourselves lately internally. Um, as Val mentioned, I'm from Oakland Council Libraries and I'm going to take you on a super fast trip through our collection platform, what we put in it, what we don't put in it, and how people talk to us about what they see and whether they like it or not, and how we respond to those um questions from them. So, first up is our [clears throat] platform. Um and hopefully some of you at least because I'm sure there's some of my colleagues online will know that Oakland Council Libraries platform is CUA Heritage Collections online. Um this is a single database that we have created out of literally dozens of predecessor databases. [sighs] It serves as both our collection management system and our discovery tool. Um it has over 1.5 million records and we add about 10,000 new records to it every month or two. Uh it includes all the sorts of things that you would expect from a database like this. Photos, oral histories, ephemera maps, archives and manuscripts. Um some of our rare book collection is in here. And it also contains sort of relevant especially to this discussion quite substantial indexes to our serial collections. So what goes in, what goes up and what gets suppressed? Uh, first off, and probably everyone who speaks today is going to say this, we're a public library. Um, that means access is really important to us and we want our collections to be as accessible as possible, but we need to balance that out with being responsible about managing the material we hold and managing what people might stumble across when they're using our platforms. Um, a lot of what's in KUA has been migrated from previous databases and the data migration was really so massive that we cleaned it up but haven't cleaned it up to the standard that we would expect of ourselves putting new content up on there today. When we add new content in, we prioritize um content based on customer demand, on the um advice and expertise of our collection experts who at Oakland uh our curators, [sighs and gasps] on the commitments we make at times of commission or donation, and also to our ongoing commitment um to representing the diversity of Oakland. We've had a couple of very interesting collections that have come through the digitization process really for publication on CUA recently and they have led to some um going back to being a library nerd really great internal debate about you know where the line is between what we publish and what we don't publish. Um and that's led us to work on some updated principles to help guide our decision- making [gasps] in this area. So in some instances we have a visible record but the related images or material was suppressed and it will have elements that look a bit like this. Um so you'll get to see the metadata and we'll give you an indication of how you can access that material but we won't let you just see it um published online. There's quite a few Whoops. There's quite a few reasons why we suppress material. Um that includes it might be culturally sensitive as per this slide, some types of nudity, uh sexually explicit images, graphic violence, um which is kind of an interesting one for us. It's not human necessarily graphic violence. uh materials with contested copyright. Um those with privacy restrictions, which primarily for us are things like oral histories, um and some archival collections where there are conditions where permissions are required or a certain amount of time has to expire before we can create general access. And we have some records that are for collection management um rather than other reasons. And they might, for example, have damage negatives that don't have anything particularly interesting to load up with them. On some rare exceptions, we do have records that are suppressed. So only staff can see that material. That's where uh ownership might be contested um or as a condition of acquisition. For example, a contemporary working photographer might not want um the terrible shots they're taken online for everyone to see. And in response to takeown requests, which are usually from the donor or the subject of the material, Some of our content in our collections is offensive, but we don't use offensive content as the sole criteria for suppression. Um, so that means that if you go on to KUA, you will find things like this. Um, you will find things that play on racist or sexist stereotypes. You will find things that don't fit with kind of the way that we view the world today. Where we know that that material exists, we might include a message like this on top of it. um just as a bit of a disclaimer, but we don't hide the fact that we have this material. So when someone sees something they like or they dislike or they think or know is incorrect, how do they let us know? Each of our 1.5 million and something records have something like this embedded into them. um and we call that CU comments and we get about 3,000 um CU comments a year via this form. We also have general inquiry and research inquiry forms on our Oakland libraries website. Um some people contact staff directly, especially if maybe they had that donor relationship. Um they respond to material that we or other people publish on social media. um or they contact us via sites that aggregate our information like find zed articles. What do they ask us for? A lot of the time they're not asking us for anything. They're sort of giving us something. Um they give us feedback which we love. Um they point out additional information that gives context to our records and enriches them. They might point out corrections like that's my granddad and his last name definitely has an E in it. Um, or they might ask for more significant amendments to our records. Very occasionally, they'll ask us to take those records down. And even more occasionally, they'll ask us to remove something from our collections completely. How do we respond? Generally, we love feedback. Um, we love feedback, especially when it enhances the quality of our records. just going back to library nerds again. But we also love feedback that makes us think about um our professional practices. Um so it's always good to have someone challenge what we do so that we really think about why do we do that? Um and often we treat these interactions as a conversation with some of our most engaged digital users. Um we have a policy really here where we um put things up easily, but that also means we commit to taking things down fairly easily as well. If someone challenges something, we're likely to suppress it in the first instance. That might not be our final decision. Um, but we'll take it down at least initially. The final decision for usually sits somewhere between our digital research collections team, and if you've been to one of these sessions that we've been running with NDF, you will have met Tim, who is the team leader of that team, and our curators who are responsible for their respective collections. But as I said, we often will have quite a conversation [clears throat] around this stuff. And we have been thinking about or we have a panel to get things into our collections um should we have another small panel where we get together and assess whether we suppress things. And finally, we really continue to reflect on what we publish and what we suppress, the metadata we use, and how [clears throat] it could or should change. So, I will leave it there for now. Um, and I'm really looking forward to what Harley and Rowan are going to say next. Thanks. >> Thank you for that, Stacy. That was great. Um, our next panelist is Harley Cooper, the heritage specialist at Todanga City Libraries. And Harley is in the heritage and research team at Tail Mama Tanga City Libraries. And this team manages the library's off-site ar the library's archives off-site and research services within Hipuna Wananga at the central library. He helped produce and procure and establish um Pi Kori Toranga Archives online and co-developed the Waka Hawa model with the team's former Tanga Tukuhumari um which was actually presented at NDF in 2021. and Harley leads the team's digital preservation workflows and built their in-house digital preservation utility. Um, so over to you, Harley. >> Hi, thank you. Um, let me just share my screen. I should start by acknowledging that I'm part of an amazing team of seven. Um, I'm not the team leader. I'm just merely a heritage specialist within the team. Um we have heritage specialists uh information access specialists and a um manga mi as well. So what we um what we uh provide access to the public through is PY Tonga archives online which contains archival material, photographic material, maps, audiovisisual publications uh as well as a wiki type information um which we're trying to build up to cover our our key people and places and events. Um so I caught a key we receive um information we receive requests and um queries and offers from the public through uh an email address. Um that's one way and we tend to just um that comes into a shared email address and we um uh team members select that they want to answer that particular query and pick it up and run with that. We also receive requests for further information or take down or um corrections through the pyordic website itself which is sits on the recollect platform. So they have a a way of opening up um requests and approving declining them seeking more information. Uh and we also showcase some of our material on on a Facebook um page. Uh so that's another way that we interact and uh offer information and also sometimes solicit information from the general public. Our voice is um this is some advice that we gave ourselves for Facebook and it's the voice is similar for for all of our platforms which is you know friendly, good-natured, informative, curious. Um, takeown requests are governed by a very boring looking official policy which um is quite sort of as you'd expect um in you know in writing within this time frame initially offline conversation conversation decision. Um, we address issues, we will respond to issues like copyright, um, private information or harm according to the, um, digital communications harms act 2015. But those are pretty low bars. Um, and so we set all of this within a larger framework which we have called the Kitakatanga framework. So that kind of recognizes that we have center of gravity on the in the TL Pakia world and another center of gravity in the TL Mari world. Those are mostly govern mostly shorthanded by uh individualism. It's mine, I made it. Uh versus it's ours, we connect to it. And part of that um approach gives us um some cultural ethical um tools that we include alongside copyright, alongside conservation status, alongside um licensing and um and other restrictions fields. So our restrictions field actually draws from all of those when our restrictions field will reflect the copyright status, the licensing, sometimes conservation status and fragility of the item uh as well as um the cultural ethical state um of that item. These are the states um um most of our content is no or unrestricted. um material that's completely restricted has a cultural ethical state of tapu and then we have sort of a bounded one for okati and a timebased one rahui and um those are some of the guidelines of what those are. We try to avoid equating any of those states with a particular action like taking it offline. Instead we um we encourage um an understanding of the platform's capabilities, the Tonga itself and the cultural ethical states. Um so that um we then choose from that point um how we enact that state. So we might some something might have an oat on it and we would agree to take it offline. Another item might have that same oaty on it and we've just removed the download status on that. And all of that's reflective of our understanding of the item in question, the capabilities that recollect have which is that is a very um capable platform for things like this as well as our understanding of those cultural ethical states. Um yeah, so here's an example. This is a a film a film that was uh produced uh and with the with the complete cooperation and collaboration of the subjects uh the subjects situation changed later in life they came back to us even though the film wasn't online the metadata about it was they asked us to um remove that and uh remove the identifying names and things and so therefore uh that was um that was changed the um cultural ethical status became tapu as you could see there. [snorts] Um and that katyakanga statement that a version of that in one state or the other exists across uh almost all of our our content. Here's another example. This was um the Taho Ma National Wahoo Festival in 2021. The um photographer took those photos actually transferred copyright to us. Um um but later we realized the um uh the subject matter also ought to come under the the manner of um Tuna Trust. And so therefore we subsequently turn change that to Okati and remove the download capability of of of that. Um, and then here's a an example of someone who was uh absolutely horrified that we had photographs of children online and declared that we should have no children online at all. Um, and we declined that um that request to remove all photographs of children on Pyord although we did offer to remove any photographs where that the individual was within um but they didn't come back to us on that. So that's um a bit of a race through um some of our our approaches and content. You can see more of that um if you come to porter key uh to archives online click the more icon and you can see our wahoo model in that pull down menu. >> Great. Thank you so much Harley. Um and then our third speaker is Rowan Miller. Um, so Rowan Miller is the current Fakaputu archives reference and special collections manager at Teohumari Okirikoa Hamilton City Libraries and together with the fabulous team that she manages um all the non- lending items held in the library collections um primarily based at Koku Mani O Kitty Kiridoa Central Library in Garden Place and she is passionate about getting the balance right between preservation and access for our precious ious collections. Um, so thanks Rowan and sorry for stumbling over a couple of those words. >> That's okay. We know we have really long long titles. Thank you Val and thank you Stacy and Harley and NDF. Um, I am not as well organized as everyone else and I don't have a presentation but I do have our website. Um, so I'm just going to jump through quickly um some of what we do here in Hamilton. Uh, so we use Vernon browser. Those of you who know Vernon um will recognize the format. Um and we've recently just upgraded to um be able to better manage our comments on our online um Vernon browser. Um so they are now moderated by staff um behind the scenes before they become public rather than just someone commenting straight away. Um we are also in the process of updating our policies to better reflect that. So I wrote a policy when I was in the digital team around how we deal with our um our comments and but we are just about to update that to better reflect the new system. Uh so if uh the comment and I've got some examples here um on an archive uh someone very kindly just said oh this person is connected to my grandmother I must ask her. Um, normally we would have responded to that and just acknowledged it, but we won't do anything further with that information unless they unless they ask um for further information or wish to contact them uh um view the material. Uh this is an example on an image. We made a typo and we acknowledge to say thanks, we've corrected that. They let us know that it was misspelled. Um so I'll go back to our frames. Um if we're just adding uh if they're just adding color um like uh you know that the initial one I showed um we just um publish it without acknowledgement. Um, if it's further information like they've added in uh some family information or where the person lived or something like that, um, we'll do a little bit of facteing and publish it and acknowledge uh the comment um, both online and usually we'll follow up with an email direct to the customer, especially if we have further questions and we want to get further information from them that we can then add to our metadata. Um, so for those of you who haven't used Vernon, um, it's got our collection management side of things and then that pull browser then pulls through information from that. So we can retain that information um, off public view um, and just choose which bits become public and which bits don't. Um, and so we also include that if information has been added by someone through a comment, we will then add that into the research and attribution tab on Vernon as well, just so we know where the information came from, so in the future people don't think we made it up. Um, we also share our material on social media. So we have a regular post on the Hamilton City Libraries, uh, Instagram and Facebook. Um, we have our faukaputu Wednesdays on Wednesday evenings and we have our Sunday streets on Sunday afternoons because we had so many street photos. Um, so if they're positive, if there's comments on the images, um, we we react with a thumbs up or a heart or whatever might be appropriate. And if there's a question like where was this taken, is there more information, etc. um that then gets passed back to me and my team and we'll give the digital team the information to respond or direct them to wherever they need to find the information. Um we've also had not so much on Vern and Braza but more on our social media um especially being um around elections we've had um some of our images were used by people uh campaigning on various topics um car parking being the main one um and so uh that went through our governance team and they um were asked to not use council material for the purpose of their campaign um and but generally it's a case- by case basis. Um we have had some people um some images become quite triggering for people for various reasons um and we just decide whether it's worth taking that post down or not. But again it's usually been on social media rather than on our browser. We do have some images that we've taken down and I think most of our um policies have been guided by Stacy and Tim and their team in Oakland. um when she was talking through it, it was everything I was going to say because we have very similar ways of thinking. Um and the other way that we use our images is we have a bimonthly newsletter which has an extremely high read rate of about 70% and um so a lot of our some of our uh comments and emails and responses to especially gathering information comes through that. Um, and our digital team leader wanted me to point out that an image that was used on a social media post before he started, so about 7 years ago, is still our highest engaging social media post on the Hamilton City Libraries page. People still engage with it even now. Um, and it is this one here of the old McDonald's, which everyone apparently remembers very fondly. [laughter] Uh, yeah. So that's a very also a very brief overview of of some of our comments here at Hamilton. >> Awesome. Thank you so much, Rowan. Um, so people are welcome to add comments and questions to the chat. Um, I see that we do have a question in the chat and I'm just going to um kick us off with one of them. um because all three of you um sort of spoke about the different types of comments that you get and how you respond to them. Um and I there was a slide that Harley showed very very quickly that sort of said, you know, where people tag just names, they ignore those. If it's just like basic information, they just give it a like to acknowledge it. Um and then the which I thought was really sensible and it sounded like you all sort of had slightly similar processes. Um but my question is actually for Stacy and that is um you mentioned the 3,000 um kura comments and do you respond to all of those some of those and how do you decide what gets a response and what doesn't? >> We respond to most of them. Um so some of them will be responded to by uh Tim and his team who manage the platform and some will get forwarded the more complex ones get forwarded into Ref Tracker which is how we answer kind of information inquiries. So if someone's asking for help with something, it'll go that way into that kind of inquiry workflow. Um if it's um giving a bit of a suggestion for edits to content that it will usually stay with the CUA team and they'll take care of that. Um different maybe to both Rowan and Harley. Our comments are not visible to uh our users. They only come as an email thing through to us. So you can't go into a record in our thing and find someone's comment, which is very lucky. I thought about using today um one that came through this week which was from someone who I guess is about 10 years old and had chosen to make an interesting comment using his school email address [laughter] and and we weren't going to respond to that at all but most of the time um like I said we sort of treat that a lot of these people are um and I don't know what the percentage is a lot of people are people who we have common interaction with so local historians who um will find new information that they share with us and say, you know, that street name definition is incorrect and here's some information. Um, so like I said, we sort of treat like that like a conversation rather than just a static they send something through, but it really depends on what the comment is, I would say. >> Nice. Thank you for that. Um, I'm going to jump to um our question that's in the chat and it's from um Tegan at the Melbourne Holocaust Museum. Um, so the question is about um reviewing policies about how to make testimonies publicly available online and just asking if any of you have a login or sign up process to access those collections online or if things are um openly available. Basically, how do you manage that access for things that might be a little bit more sensitive? which is a bit of a trick. I was going to be polite and let someone else, but yeah, I don't want to I don't want to take up all the talking space, so if Rowan or Harley want to speak first, I'm happy to stay quiet. >> You go, Stacy. I'll follow you. >> Yeah, sure. Um we don't have um one of our things we would like to have is kind of a virtual reading room. We don't have that right now. So, usually if people want to um view or use something that we've got, say a record for but haven't put all the information up there for them, um they'll send us a query about it. And often that goes to the curator of that collection and they will then go into a conversation with that purpose person, probably partly about what's the purpose of their request, who they are, that kind of thing. Um we might send that material to them virtually just in an email. Um depends on kind of what it is. Uh again depending on the material that might require us to get permissions from a donor um or people who are in the content um and in I guess in a in a c in certain situations they just come have to come in and see us here in our reading room um to view particular types of content. Yeah. Um, we have put our we are in the process of putting as many oral histories that we have permissions for online if they're fully accessible. We're putting them on through Vimeo. So, we have a closed Vimeo account where everything is in there digitized and available um to us. And then um if it's fully available, it's embedded in our Vernon record and you can just go into the Vernon record and hit play and listen to it wherever you are. If it's available on request, it'll have a record on Vernon and then it says, "Please contact us and with our email address, they'll email through and we'll send them the link to Vimeo with a password. They're all password protected if they're restricted." Um, and then we will change that after a month so that they lose access. It's a limited access. And then obviously we have some that are fully restricted and they would have to come to us to access. But by and large, it's a nice mixture of ones that are publicly accessible and ones that people can just access by request. Um, but yeah, we're using Vimeo as an external service to um the main reason we went with that was because of the p the password ability to to lock it down. Um, and our next step is to put the full transcripts on those as well, so they're fully accessible. Um because our platform sits on a on a recollect um um a platform, we've got um uh access control groups. So we can push a whole collection into an access control group, which is an optin only or a white list. Um so those users that have signed in can see it. Those who haven't uh can't. Um that's one of the one of the options. To be honest, we aren't using that a great deal. that's more we might more use that to co-create something with a with a um a contributor. Um we can also make everything private so that you have to have at least a login to picorti and that makes content available by and large to humans um and uh Google and search engines can't can't see that content. Um we do we do also host our video content um in uh third party we we use YouTube but we have been um and those are either viewable or not. So um anything that's sensitive we haven't really um use that yet. So I'm I'm really curious and about these extra capabilities that Vimeo has that might be quite useful. >> Great. Thank you for that. Um, so there was a question about if um any of your takedown policies um and also your kitiaki tonga framework are available online. Um and if so people would love to um see the links. I know that um one of the links has already been posted. Um so there's another question about sorry my my questions have just skipped ahead. Um there we go. Sorry. Oh my goodness, my computer is of course not behaving. Um, so yes, so there's a few questions about the functionality of um, Vimeo and how it protects content. Um, are you able to prevent people from downloading or making copies of material that's posted to Vimeo or YouTube or other similar platforms? >> Uh, yes, that was another advantage why we went with that platform. um because you can lock down in the beha um behind the scenes, you can make it non-downloadable etc. non-mbbedible. Um so that was another reason that we went with it so that it can be viewed but not downloaded. >> Nice. Um there's quite um there's a question about um how to deal with situations involving more than one member of the public having conflicting views about your records um such as disagreements over the correct information and sort of how you manage those um competing interests or opinions um yeah because that is quite a tricky one. Yeah, we we would naturally have a bit of um research and get a bit of research involved or or ask what they why they think um that information is correct. Um we try to do that using good information literacy but also respecting oral tradition as well. I was I would say that's largely the same for us to be fair. Try and verify things independently if we can. I can only um think of one example where we've sort of in the end preference taking a record down and suppressing it um without actually being able to take it to the nth degree. But that just seemed like the right call based on conversations with people at the time. Um thankfully it doesn't come up a lot but it's a great question. >> Yeah it I can't think of an example here. We've had more um people then take their conversation offline with a staff member to argue the point about where their information's come from. Um but not so much two people arguing in front you know separate to us. >> Yeah. any of your organizations have um for example like a take down um like working group or an oversight committee to just sort of um yeah keep an eye on what kind of requests you're getting and what is being taken down and what isn't. >> We do not >> That sounds like a great idea. Yeah. >> Sorry. Go ahead. >> I agree. It sounds like a great idea. So um one of my colleagues was at I press I think with a lot of people and I feel jealousy about that um but had gone to the photographers forum where there was actually a session on sensitive um publishing sensitive information and they talked about uh just exactly this kind of thing which I think you have at national library um and we were like why don't we have a thing like that we definitely keep a record of what um requests we've had and what the decision is and sort of how we made that decision. Um, and we it's very rare that one person will make a decision alone. I can't really think of a scenario like that. Um, but we don't have a formal panel. Um, but like [clears throat] some other things I've seen in the session today, there's some great ideas for ways we can change practice. >> Yeah, I was just I was just saying that sounds like a great idea in an environment where you've got a lot of take down requests and um but the simple fact that we don't have a great many means we haven't really gone down that track either. Um I I think I think potentially preventing takedown requests is the better approach by by applying better um kind of conceptual frameworks and things in the in the first place. >> Yeah, we don't have anything formal either. Um but it is as Stacy said, not just one person's decision. Um, and luckily we've I think we've only had to do it twice and it was a a senior management discussion. >> Great. Thank you. >> Um, if anyone does have further questions, feel free to add them into the chat. I know there's certainly um lots of lots of things to consider and and a lot of times the questions come later after you've had a a few moments to reflect. Um but one of the one of the questions that I had while um oh actually perhaps a new question has come in just a second. Oh yes, just agreeing that robust processes and good agreement forms with donors help to limit the takedown issue. Yeah, absolutely. all of that preparation and conversation upfront is really really key. Um, a question that I had um for Harley was um when you were talking about the the different um sort of the different categories of collections for example the the Okati um does that apply across collections or is that just for collections with um specifically that are multianga? >> Right. Yeah, that's a good question. Um for us the wakahudo model is both um a tool that is useful for mai communities to express content but also it's a tool that we communicate um uh information to tiamari. So um an item doesn't need to come from tari to be given a cultural ethical state. >> Does that answer the question? >> Yes, that does. Thank you for clarifying that. Um, see I ask a question even though I want the panel. Harley, can you talk a bit about how you developed that framework because it's really great. Um it actually it kind of began I don't know if you remember years ago um you would often find um in memory institutions declaring copyright over something or assigning a creative common license over something that they actually didn't have the right to. [snorts] Um and and what it was you can still see this online um today. What it was is is memory institutions intuitively wrestling with the desire to manage uh access um you know usually responsibly but sometimes just because they had that old-fashioned you shall not pass mindset. Um so we we began to um work with our our team to better understand copyright and licensing. And then we observed that people started to claim um kiteyaki then as a reason to to control things. Um uh and so it was in wrestling with what does that mean with our mango mi that we realized um because we taken away copyright and creative commons as a tool of control we were now opening up tari um to the risk of being commandeered by um by you know usually well-intentioned people. And so we worked together to better understand that and that produced the um the katya katanga framework which once it was fully formed turned into the the wakahuda model. Thank you for that Harley. Um we have a couple of minutes left if anybody has any burning questions that you haven't put into the chat yet. Um but also um all three of our panelists have said that if you think of anything afterwards, you are welcome to contact them. Um and we will be sending a follow-up email with more um with more information and with some of these resources and also a link to the to the recording. Um and it looks like there was a question about who the um the collaboration with, whether it was internal staff or Monofenua. And Harley has put in the comments that it is it was in fact both. Um lovely So if there are no further questions um we might give everybody a couple of minutes back in their day. Um but first please um join me in thanking our three panelists today for their codedo and for sharing their experiences. Um this is a really um a really great topic in terms of you know because we all are are trying to do the best we can for researchers and making sure that our access to collections is appropriate and our metadata is is you know as good as it can be. So this is um a really really great quotido. Um and as I said we'll be sending out um the the email with recording and links um probably early next week. Um but yeah thank you all again for such a great session. Thank you for taking time and thank you again to Rowan, Stacy, and Harley for sharing your insights and knowledge with us.