Red Light Therapy For Women SPECIAL: Everything You Need To Know

And when you're pregnant, you really don't want to take a lot of drugs. You're trying to keep yourself healthy and you don't want to expose your baby to it. But it's like light can be a fantastic tool for those women who need pain management in uh in pregnancy. And it improves hormone levels. Um improves we've got more uh follicles developing to proper size. Uh, and women when we start to help women get their hormones back on track, they just feel better in themselves and they're sleeping better and and but of course you can't do it in isolation. You have to be doing looking after your food and and your exercise and of course your your light diet and your sleep. It's hugely important as well because I I I talk to women who are sitting under bright lights all day and then they're coming home to do their laser and I'm like, "Okay, we got to figure this out." Not so many. Get outside in the daytime if you can, even for a few minutes for a little what I call sun snacks whenever you can. >> Hello everybody. Today I'm here with a special guest, Tracy Donigan, who is expert on the topic of female health and wellness and also fertility and anything female related. And the reason of course for inviting her on the podcast is because I'm not so much specialized in the topic. So, I might as well invite somebody who has lots and lots of experience on this topic because yeah, she has her own podcast with I think 50 episodes, her own website, tracy donigan.org. Um, she's also active in our Facebook group which is why where I originally met her and interacting there all the time. Welcome to the Lifeapy Insiders podcast. >> How are you, Bart? And yeah, I'm I'm delighted to be here and as you know like I'm I'm a frequent visitor to the Facebook group. you and Alex have created a a brilliant community and there's always very supportive and everybody gives like, you know, there's lots of good feedback. But yeah, it's yeah, and I don't see myself as an expert in in all things women's health. I'm a I'm a midwife by trade. I trained as a midwife in Ireland and uh so I'm now based in the US and kind of came across red light therapy about about three years ago and I think probably like a lot of people thought it was a little woo and a little too good to be true and I and I I still sometimes I see research and I think no there's got to be more to this but I did when I started it was I I think it was more around the time when it was very much panel focused >> and a lot of the bio biohackers were you online talking about these panels. So, as you do, I invested in a panel and uh started using it and then kind of went further down the rabbit hole around like like from panels to lasers to like all the way back to sunlight and and and how important sunlight is for us. Never mind if we're using all all the devices and everything. Sunlight is a really key aspect of uh of human health. Um, so now it's three years in and yeah, I can't get enough of it and and specifically around women's health because as you're probably aware when you when you look at the research and this is this has been for decades that you know women are just kind of an afterthought in a lot of research that most research would be would be male focused and then it's just oh we'll just adopt it for women like we're mini men. But of course, we're [laughter] biologically quite different and our bodies respond um to medications in different ways. Uh we have different organs. Um and so there's Yeah. So for me it was I just felt like women really weren't getting a seat at the table yet when it came to uh to photobiomodulation. So that's and then the rest is history. Now I just Yeah. I'm in the research every day [laughter] because of there because you see it there's so much coming out like we can't keep up with it. >> No, it's crazy. And just to take a step back when when I said say that you're an expert. Um I'm even far less than an expert. You've talked to you're working with uh women in this area every day and it I it's also very difficult of course for me to keep up because we've got 10,000 studies right now on red light therapy photobiogulation. So I'm doing my best but this is one of the topics which I just fold immediately and it's better just to have a beginner's mindset in my case >> and talk to the actual population who is affected here uh which is women and so that's going to be the topic of the today of of this episode. Let's let's talk about that. May maybe your broad perspective on like female health, female wellness and how how light therapy ties in there. But yeah, also more broadly on female health etc. As you already said, it's different than men, right? U in many aspects. >> Yeah. And and for women, we we tend to generally have kind of different goals when it comes to, you know, the use of red light therapy. I think for men it's much more focused around sports performance, you know, doing well at the gym, a little bit on on hormones and kind of skin, but but for women it's when you look at like what are the the big issues for for women and what especially what we're seeing in the research is like how well uh red light therapy can help with period pain. so significant and especially kind of at the moment in the last few years where like teenage girls with with like debilitating period pain, you know, having to be home from school or taking, you know, lots of medications, you know, as a teenager or else they're being uh funneled into medication and and put on birth control so that they don't have a period which is again may have downstream effects for their fertility um in years to come. So I think around so period pain is a really big area and like it's safe and it's effective. Pelvic pain as women get older so women in menopause or who've had pelvic surgeries mainstream medicine really doesn't have a lot to offer women and I would say for especially when it comes to pelvic pain it's women are are living in with this chronic pain without any answers. I mean they can they're sent to uh to women's health the the women's health physios for pelvic floor therapy which I always recommend if you're doing red light therapy for for any kind of pelvic pain please see a pelvic floor specialist as well because I I think it works really well together and we have someone working on the mechanics and we can also use that light for for generating that collagen and and supporting the pelvic floor. So, and then of course fertility, but it is yeah, they're kind of the the kind of core areas. And then and then of course there's the skinincare aspect and which it was never really something that grabbed my attention. I just and I and I'm sure like you guys you're you're scent devices all the time to try out, you know, and I can't like I've got a lot of face of uh face masks. I'm like they kind of give me a hint here that [laughter] I shouldn't be growing old gracefully. I need to, you know, do do all this stuff. So uh yeah it's just so so I guess skinincare is another aspect u and then postpartum wound healing for like cescareian wounds or paranal healing we can use it for uh breastfeeding which which is interesting because when when you see kind of look at sometimes at the research and you'll see you know a nice paper will come out around around breastfeeding around nipple soreness specifically when you're starting breastfeeding and it can be quite painful if mom doesn't have the right support and hasn't been, you know, you know, given the right, you know, instruction on how to nurse their baby because we're still doing all kinds of uh old school stuff that is for another podcast. But for like we look at some of the studies and they will say, you know, this we used this laser for this light for two minutes on three different points and we had good pain relief. And then I will do something similar with one of my clients and like we're not getting the same results and we're using a very similar device and like okay so it's my practice has really evolved over the years with with looking at like in real time what are women experiencing and are they having is this matching what the research shows. So I've what I often end up doing especially if it's a condition that I haven't worked with before will you know I'll find what what's out there in the research and then try to extrapolate that into a protocol that will help these women and and for I guess I guess part of know I have my own clinic and I have I I use low-level laser and I have a a class 4 laser but a lot of my work as well is with women who are all over the world who don't have access >> to a lot of these tools. So, I will write the protocol for them based on the tool that they're interested in or a device that they already have so that they can get the best out of the device or or if they're planning on buying a device and they come to me and ask me, you know, for my recommendations, is this likely to help? As you know, there's a lot of hype out there in the market around and it's it's getting >> what I call a little predatory >> when it comes to to especially for for like health issues which I kind of find a little just yeah disconcerting where we're seeing a lot of you know device manufacturers will site like lots of research but then when you actually look at what they're citing they're citing you know very different studies or a study on um using an LED instead of uh of the actual you know a laser. So and the websites are very flashy and and and you know they do look quite credible. So, if you see, oh, here's, you know, that looks like this will help my fertility, and you've been trying to have a baby for five years, you you you're you're looking for that that one piece of the puzzle that you think that could be it. And it's not just around it's not just predatory around uh the the light business. It's, you know, supplements as well and and all kinds of woo stuff that's out there for fertility that has no basis in any kind of evidence and is just really taking advantage of women who are really vulnerable at that point in their lives and are just like grasping at anything that they think might be the one thing that gets them pregnant. I've just looked at a uh there's a new study that came out recently on postpartum care. So, as a midwife, you know, we want to help women, you know, if they're having a, you know, a vaginal birth that we want to avoid paranal injury. We want everyone's afraid of tearing and that that's what we don't want that to happen. And we do our best to try and protect the paranium, but you know, sometimes like a baby will be born with their hand up here and it's a wider diameter and and there's not much we can do except kind of slow things down. But I use it regularly in my work for like as soon as you know we've if there's any suturing finished and uh or even if there's just swelling I'll use the light on the pyneium within usually within an hour of birth and we start the treatment right there and then because we know that getting light on wounds as soon as possible as soon as bleeding is controlled really accelerates the uh the healing process. But there was a study that just came out. So I having a look at it this morning and it com and it was a metaanalysis. So combined of I think about 10 different studies from all over the world on um using light for paranal healing and but they but they combined low-level laser therapy and far infrared. >> So you're comb so it's two different mechanism. you've got heating and you've got which is great for circulation but then you have you know the low-level laser so very different mechanisms and and it you know there their kind of final word was well we there's more there's more research needed I'm like but you're comparing apples to oranges here but a lot of the the women that I work with you know paranal injury cesarian wound healing there's some really lovely studies on on that and not just around the actual the scar itself because of course you know as women you know we're we're conscious of of that scar but not only does it minimize the scar we can use what I like to use as well is blue light yeah for antimicrobial because that's one of the the top >> reasons why a mom would be readmitted to hospital is for infection >> so if we can add a little bit of infection control there and because we work with a I work with a with a laser we are we're getting um a deeper penetration into the tissues so that because one of the kind of side effects that comes with a cesarian is that as those tissues heal that that they can the the body can create adeesions. >> Yeah. >> So the uterus can we end up with having you know and if you have more cesarians we've got more adesions. So it can be it's not such a big deal for your first pregnancy but for the next birth or subsequent births when you do a cesarian and you you literally when you see inside into into the cavity it looks like spiderweb. >> So we know that that the red light can reduce the adesions. Now we haven't seen again like we're waiting on the studies to catch up with what we're seeing in real life. So we need people out there who maybe somebody's watching was interested in doing some of these uh studies because again it's much easier to implement when we have a little bit of research behind us and it's not just extrapolated from you know a a case study or you know a study on mice you know we want real studies on on real women and it reduces inflammation. Another issue with with a cesarian birth can be that that as the the the wound inside the uterus starts to heal sometimes it can create this little pocket >> and it ends up catching blood and like like during like your next couple of menstrual cycles it catches blood and the and it and it sits there in this pocket and it we have this kind of low-level inflammation within the uterus which then can affect someone's fertility further down the line. So, and it's not even something you're aware you have. So, for me, getting that light on that incision site, it's not just about the external scar. We're we're we're going like we're helping the whole body heal and reduce that inflammation for kind of that downstream effect as well. >> Makes sense. I know from from dentistry for instance, I've done done lots of research on that that people have like have their wisdom teeth removed and and and it's not done perfectly correctly and then they have cavitations in in their jaw which creates like chronic inflammation and health problems over time, right? And I would say with cescareian it could be could be a similar thing and I also liked your comment or long remark basically on the difference between studies and also clinical experience and sometimes in many cases like I said I'm not an expert on on female health or fertil fertility or anything related to that but on many of the topics I know working with many so many people in the Facebook group for instance people sometimes need to deviate from the protocol in the studies, right? Um, yeah, you kind of just black and white always. >> It's a good It's a very good starting point often, but you want optimal results and people respond differently, you may need to optimize a little bit there. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think especially with like if you're if you're using like a like a pelvic wand for getting light into the pelvis, I think it's and I think I mentioned this to you uh when we chatted a couple of weeks ago where there are again like the because this you know the landscape is expanding so much in in light therapy and uh the interest is is growing kind of leaps and bounds. There's a lot of devices, you know, that are just appearing on the market that are, you know, disappear in a few months. And it's like, okay. And and, you know, with kind of minimal, not information, but minimal support for especially for somebody who has who might be buying a wand, a pelvic light wand for neuropathic pain. So maybe they've they've had uh cancer therapy and now they're they find like they are in like excruciating pain. even their underwear hurts >> and they will they'll they'll see some information out there around light the pelvic light therapy and as I said like I had someone recently who had bought a device on Amazon and just she just went hell for leather and used it for 10 minutes which again for me it's like we I introduce especially with somebody with nerve issues we introduce the light very slowly and gently to see how the body responds. But she couldn't sit down for three days like she was she was in that much pain. It had flared her uh her the the nerve so much for her. So I think you know we do tend to think oh light is uh it's safe and but I think there are circumstances when we just need to be a little bit cautious especially around nerve pain because it is funny when I'm when I'm working with women especially clients who if they've had a cesarian and I will be lighting up kind of like the left hand side of the of this of the wound but they'll feel tingling over on the right hand side >> and it's so it's uh yeah we we not We don't know. Not that we don't know. We can't see what's happening beneath the tissues. But I think for anyone who's working on kind of, you know, light therapy in very intimate areas go very low and slow and just because that idea of you know, oh well just, you know, more is better what what we tend to think and then it's it sets you back and and it frightens women off red light therapy when it can be such a fantastic tool for them. >> Yeah. And I always repeat that in the Facebook group. You've seen that probably that like almost anybody I tell them even though there may be recommendations go slow monitor your response not only during the session but but especially afterwards see how are you doing in the next few days if you ever want to do a high power therapy then you slowly build up to that in the same way people do exercise you don't if I never run never never go for a run I don't go for like half a marathon or or marathon off the bed right I slowly build up to that so yeah Tracy you you mentioned quite a devices. It's always an issue the information overload. I think people also get that impression when they go to to our website because there's so much and I will say also looking at your YouTube channel uh the Tracy Donagan show see like 50 interviews and have like uh wow that's a lot of information. So that that's why I said like I feel like a beginner now. So if we look at these devices right you have you have mentioned the laser you have mentioned wand c can you g give just also I think if I understand it and these devices these several categories of devices that you use then it's probably also very yeah much easier for like the average the the females listening right now and some some men maybe whom may buy a present for them for like the birthday or whatever. Um >> yeah well I would say for especially around fertility. Yeah. So um because we can use we can use like I have I have my my little kind of laser that I use and I write the protocols for them. So if if someone contacts me and they buy my laser they get the protocol with it. So they will get quite an indepth health history intake that they will fill in for me. And I it's probably more in depth than a lot of IVF clinics even because I look at the hu like the overall picture of their overall health and what else are they doing around you know light in their lives you know how are they getting sunlight their circadian all of that but I include a the partner protocol as well because when we look at especially around male there is some really nice evidence around male fertility and improving motility morphology not so much but motility and you know making sure the the the sperm is swimming forward and getting to where they need to go. it light therapy is really really effective and it's when I I'm working with a with a couple I would usually suggest that they use they're using so the woman is using it her protocol and I usually have the partners do the protocol for the woman as well and then they'll have their own little protocol and because with sperm it takes about 74 days for for sperm to to to grow and when we look at I guess at the research around male fertility is that any kind of subfertility. So if I if I get an intake history form and I look at their semen analysis and it's not looking great, you can sometimes you can identify well you know because it has high DNA fragmentation and low motility. To me that might suggest that there's actually a low-grade infection going on here that hasn't been addressed. But there's there's lots that they can do that that you know the men can do to support themselves or support their fertility because they're you know 50% of of the uh building this baby. for for the the women then the protocol is a little bit more indepth because we're doing we're doing the neck, we're doing the the back of the brain, we're doing different sites of the body lymphatics, the ovaries and because it's we're we're timing it because we want to get a therapeutic dose >> especially to the ovaries. So we are timing it so that we are you know what what what you know wavelengths and what you kind of depth are we trying to achieve to get that that little bit of light to the ovaries to trigger that that whole cytochrome c oxidase and to get as I say that little motor spinning and creating that that ATP. So when when we look at I guess a kind of landscape at the moment is that most of the device manufacturer will have something about fertility and but of course when we look at the research the research was all using laser and laser just penetrates that little bit deeper especially when you're in skin contact. So when when I have the partners run the protocol for I first thing is I want the women in a state of that rest and digest state. So if we're in a state of that nice parasympathetic response the relaxation response then we've turned off the stress response which means they're going to receive the light in a different way in a more physiologically optimal way. So, I have a a kind of meditation fertility app that I send them. I say, "Pick a couple of nice sessions from this that you're going to lie on the couch or lie on the bed and you're going to put your headphones on and your partner is going to take care of the timing and using the laser on you so that they can actually relax and receive the light." Because when you're going through fertility treatments or you've been trying for for a while, it's very hard to switch your brain off and not and just and disengage from the doing of I have to do the next thing and I have to try this and so it helps women just to kind of switch off for 30 minutes so that they can you know receive the energy and then generally we see especially it's it's much more evident if someone is trying to conceive naturally. So if they're not using medications and if they're charting cycles, we'll usually see like changes in the next cycle, we'll see that they've got more fertile mucus. They feel different. They might have less period pain, you know, during their their menstruation. So we know it's having an impact. They're not just standing in front of a panel and hoping for the best. So So I I always think about the laser is like a it's like a flashlight. So we're getting, you know, a really nice columnated. It's all heading in the one direction and it's we're getting it deeper into the tissues because the ovaries are a little bit, you know, you're up to about four to six centimeters inside the body. So we have to get through fascia and skin and muscle and a little bit of adapose maybe too as well to uh to get that light there. But all we need is a is a little bit of light to stimulate the ovarian environment. And that's what we're doing. We're not there's this idea that we're going to, you know, we're rejuvenating the ovaries or nobody can do yet, but what we're doing is we're creating the uh really optimal environment around the ovaries so they so we're increasing the blood flow and and when we have so many women with inflammation in the body that and I try to explain it to, you know, to the couples that I work with that that what inflammation is doing especially in the reproductive system. It is it's it's strangling the ovaries. It's strangling those tissues. So, the light, you know, brings all of that, you know, nice circulation to the area. We get new blood vessels. We get the modulation of that immune system and and the cells are talking to each other again more more effectively. But it's yeah, it's it's it's really I I think we're going to see more and more studies now the next couple of years looking at again different aspects to fertility because there's there's a there's a million reasons why somebody isn't getting pregnant. And I think we have to start rather than just funneling everyone into IVF, we have to start looking at a more restorative approach and uh for reproductive health because we're we're still on that treadmill of just everyone should have IVF and then unfortunately women go into thinking that IVF is going to guarantee a baby which it may not. But so what we want to do is help those women get them get their ovaries, get the uterus as uh as ready as possible for potential conception. And because we don't want to just get them pregnant, we want them to have a healthy pregnancy and and be able to hold on to that pregnancy. Um we generally don't use the light over the bump in pregnancy and generally there wouldn't be really any reason to do that. But I think if you're in a sunny climate where you can get your bump out and and get a little bit of sun on it, I think that's fantastic because your baby is expecting >> to, you know, for for their brain development and eye development, your baby is expecting to get a certain amount of uh near infrared within that that aquatic environment. But I'll use the laser for and sometimes yeah sometimes like some of the the the wraps and things can be helpful for like lower back pain works really well for carpal tunnel or if someone has that that symphysis pubis where the joint at the front of the pelvis gets very the hormones are causing it to just to be a little bit more flexible and uh which means it's the the the pelvis feels more unstable and that can cause more inflammation and and some women can struggle a lot in uh in pregnancy if they have that condition. So, and when you're pregnant, you really don't want to take a lot of drugs. You're trying to keep yourself healthy and you don't want to expose your baby to it, but it's like light can be a fantastic tool for those women who need pain management in uh in pregnancy. >> So much you told me also also also about Okay. >> Yeah. Also about the men being 50%. Uh >> yeah, I know that you mentioned that before and I thought I think I saw it on your Instagram which you're very active on. I got like I think six six seven eight updates per day there. But one of them was that like a statistic that I knew that the men of course are also in 50% of the times the men are the reason why pregnancy may not happen right and >> yeah and and often times the investigations haven't been done on on the men and women have gone through all of these investigations and like okay we can't find anything wrong with you let's have a look at at himself and because most men won't have a semen analysis unless they're actually you know they're forced into it and [laughter] and they're and they're actively trying to have a to to help their partner get pregnant. What they don't realize is suboptimal, you know, reproductive health in men is a key indicator of their metabolic health and their their own longevity. Yeah. So, I think even if you're not at a point where you're thinking of having a baby anytime soon, I think it's helpful to understand where you're at healthwise and uh and because there may be investigations that you can do now that will help you correct any issues there. And I had a case recently where I was working with a a couple who'd been trying for a while and the the woman found out that her partner had been taking testosterone. I know with the the the semen levels that they can drop big and and also you already said right the average man doesn't exercise or very little has a poor diet no cicadium rhythm no sunlight and offers all day under blue light toxin exposure from sham well fortunately I don't take shampoos but from shampoos and all all type of co cosmetic product products perfumes no movement throughout the days and of Of course, all of these factors lower your fertility as a man and then make pregnancy more difficult if you're trying to >> I think for most men they're thinking, "No, I'm not thinking have I'm not having a baby anytime soon." But it's like, no, but you want to live until you're 80 or 90, so get get this checked out. It's a simple thing to that'll indicate to you like it it it's going to it'll it shows up in like cardiovascular health you know your uh insulin resistance. So it's it's worth taking seriously even if you're not you've no plans to uh have any have a family anytime soon. So if we go back to the laser right and and you personally offer that laser I am I correct there or is it something that you so if people contact you they would be able to get that what laser is it if I may ask and uh >> so yeah it's a it's a 3B and it is a 1.3 watt >> ah yeah >> so so it is it's it's high powered enough for what what we're using it for but more often than than not I am most of my protocols stay on the lowest level. >> Yeah. >> Because when uh when you look at compare some of the research around like the and and the the research is very it's a mixed bag. >> We don't have huge randomized control trials yet. I think the last randomized control trial that we had um was in 2024 and it was looking at using laser to increase to improve implantation rates. So if we have now transferred a healthy embryo and we we want to hope that it will implant properly. So they were using the they were using laser but they were using quite low dose. So, I I think there are, you know, there's there's the, you know, the the big the canopy lasers and and other bigger kind of more professional units that that women just don't have access to unless they have it in their community and there's very few of them. So, but looking at some of some of the the smaller studies, they were not using uh like there there is like one professional unit that uh you know has an output of 18,000 jewels. >> We don't need 18,000 jewels to stimulate the uterus and to stimulate the ovaries. In the in the studies, what we what what they found was about 800. >> Yeah. >> Some of them were 400. So you know as you talk about it's like are finding that sweet spot of so we've seen some of the studies Ruth Fipers in the UK she's done a couple of case studies but for for her she she uses a class 4 laser but her I think she uses about 14,000 jewels. >> Yeah. >> So and then we have you know the the larger canopy ones which is like 18,000 like well how much is actually reaching the ovaries? And that's the thing, we only need a tiny like like I think to stimulate the mitochondria we're talking about like maybe up to about four jewels and then like but the like for the whole treatment for a lot of the where 800 is doing the doing the job. So, we can do it with a lot less energy and it improves hormone levels, improves, we can we've got more follicles developing to proper size and women when we start to help women get their hormones back on track, they just feel better in themselves and they're sleeping better and and but of course, you can't do it in isolation. You have to be doing looking after your food and and your exercise and of course your your light diet and your sleep. It's hugely important as well because I I I talk to women who are sitting under bright lights all day and then they're coming home to do their laser and I'm like, "Okay, we got to figure this out." Not so many. Get outside in the daytime if you can, even for a few minutes for a little what I call sun snacks whenever you can. >> It's the same picture for men and women in this case, right? It's not just I I just said like all men have those areas in life unfortunately not under control and yeah of course it's everybody's own decision but it will affect your fertility and in the same case that is a problem in the general population. >> Tracy besides the laser and there's lots of differences of opinion there but besides the laser are there any other devices that you use for women of with women? Yeah, I mean I I do like the the pelvic wand um >> specifically for women who are again if they've had kind of pelvic floor issues and it's usually older women who are kind of they're menopause or post-menopausal because again it's one another aspect that you know men don't experience but but for women that huge hormone drop around menopause means they are especially with the the drop in estrogen they are they're losing, you know, these, you know, key hormones for longevity, for their, you know, their their whole health, not just reproductive health. I find the wand for lubrication like one of the simplest things for so and and I I I I'm very privileged I have to say and and honor that women will share very intimate details with me of like really sometimes very chronic and I like it's it's sometime makes for very very difficult reading that they have been living with a chronic condition that maybe has taken you know outside of menopause like glycan sclerosis that They may have had it for 20 years and it was only recently diagnosed and it's just and they've been living with this pain and thinning tissues and and all they're given is h a steroid and the steroid will just reduce will increase the thinning of those tissues. So, I do like the the w the the pelvic wand and because it's an LED, it's non-heating and because it is in direct contact with those mucosal tissues. Again, we don't need huge we don't need massive jewels, it's very gentle and it's I I think most of the women that I work with and I I and I will beat the drum of consistency. You've got to be consistent because I will, you know, I I follow up with everyone that I work with. You know, I give them a couple of months and and unless they've got something that they have questions about, but I follow up and I say, you know, how are you doing? They're like, oh yeah, you know, I used it once or I went on vacation, I forgot, and I just haven't gotten back into it. And I'm like, really, use it. It works. And just be consistent. Just do it three months. Give it three months and then if you don't feel like it's it's doing what you were hoping it would do, then leave it aside. Once they are consistent with it, the the results are really really impressive. Lubrication, the it makes the tissues juicier. So, we're not seeing that atrophy in in the vulval tissues as much and and we're we're kind of slowing all of that down, but and without any medication. So I mean I think for every woman they have to make the decision for themselves about taking HRT and finding a a decent provider that will actually help them you know understand how important it can be for for their uh their long term health and an enjoyment of life. You know it doesn't life doesn't have to stop because you you know you you're now menopausal and sex is painful. We there's things that we can do and light it's it's so bizarre that we can like we can affect the tissues in such a positive way by light. It's again if you'd asked me three years ago about light therapy, pelvic light therapy, I would have laughed you out the door. But now like I've I've seen the results. I use the tools myself and yeah it's but consistency is so so important. You've got to use the protocol. >> Yeah, that makes sense. So it's mo mostly the laser and the pelvic one that you recommend and is there anything besides that or but those two I I assume mainly for female health and wellness right and fertility etc. If somebody wants wants beautiful skin on their face they will use a face mask but in this case that that is not like the main focus of your yours. Yeah, it's not. But but funnily enough, I just um somebody was asking me last week about this new fancy laser, the the Lima, I think it's called, and I like I was like, "No, I" and I just took one look at the price tag and I like, "No, that won't be I'll be asking Santa Claus for uh to bring that." It's like a 3,000 two or $3,000 mat, but all the celebrities are endorsing it. So, when I looked at it, I'm like, "Okay, what is special about this device?" But when I looked at the wavelengths, like they're using some strange wavelengths. They're red like I think they're using like a red 620 or something and then maybe an 808, but not a very powerful device at all as you because you don't need deep tissue penetration for uh for the face. But my laser can do exactly the same. But again, like I just I'm not bothered. But if somebody wants to use their laser, you know, on their ovaries and their face and their uh, you know, that that achy knee joint, they can use one tool for all of it. But I I do like some of the the wraps as well. I think for especially for for period pain. So for someone that and especially like for women who have endometriosis as well, it can be because you you do get that nice deeper tissue penetration with a you know the 800 and you get a little bit of warmth with the circulation as well. So I do like some of the wraps as well for uh and again if you have a teenage daughter at home, she's not going to sit there and do a laser on her, you know, for 20 minutes. She can pop the wrap on, she can be sitting on her phone or watching TV and uh it's a nice non non hormonal way of uh of helping the the teens. >> That makes sense. Uh certainly. Yeah. To move to another topic, what do you think although we've covered this a little bit because you mentioned quite a few. What do you think like are the two or three biggest misunderstandings in terms of female health in general? Actually, >> I think not that it's a misunderstanding. I I don't think women in particular realize how important daylight is for their whole their whole health. So I think and and I think we know there's enough in the news these days about you know reducing processed foods but but really the for me the light is a big thing. H and and there's been even if any people are not using if they're not interested in red light at all getting that early morning sunlight getting their sun snacked during the day because almost everybody is deficient in vitamin D even here in Texas because they're not actually getting any light any decent sunlight during the day and we need that UVB for all of those sex hormones. So, we've got UVB, um, our sun snacks, and then trying to again avoid all of this artificial light as much as possible. And at night time, sleeping in complete darkness. >> Yeah. >> Especially for fertility. That's a really simple hack for life. You know, put on an eye mask, make sure there's no extra light in your room or or you don't have sun coming in kind of, you know, or or not sun, um, street lights coming in during the night. There there was a study looking at women's cycles who were they did this what they call it like light elimination therapy. They had them wear an eye mask, cover up anything in the room that would have any display of light. So even like their little smoke alarm on your you know put a little cover over the little green LED and their cycles changed significantly like the cycles improved. It was cycle length shortened for them. So and that was just over a couple of cycles. So yeah, so a big thing for me is that the importance of getting natural daylight and reducing this uh artificial light really especially as so many of us now are insulin resistant and sitting under that that blue light all day is just it ain't good. >> It's a little bit personal for both you and you and I, right? Because yeah, I I live in South America. I and part of the reason is that I get access to good sunlight year round. Uh you're in Texas, you came well I came from the Netherlands, you came from Ireland and you we we both know and have experienced very much so. Uh what a big difference that is in in in life. Know the locals here where I'm right now in South America probably very similar to Texas. Even though the sun may be great there, people walk to the car with a hat, sunglass on maybe 30 seconds, they walk to the car, go sit in the car, drive to work, and never actually get any sunlight exposure. Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's it's scary that that we're at the point where it's so that's my for me that's my my non-negotiable like every morning, you know, even though this morning I ended up getting, you know, drenched in a in a thunderstorm coming back. It's get outdoors, get get light whenever you can during the day and doing it safely because as you said like we don't want sunscreen, we don't want sunglasses. All of that impacts us as well. And but we don't want to be sitting out at noon in Texas and frying ourselves uh either. That's not >> the balance. Don't get sunburnt. But be careful, very careful with uh sunscreen and and >> yeah, glasses as well >> because the change is still entire impulse because the brain will think once you wear the sunglasses likely that's dark and you don't need the protective mechanism in the skin for instance once you're wearing that. Yeah, I'm just on again for kind of coming back to the the uh the women's health and fertility as well like like countries like you know Ireland that doesn't get a lot of sun you know and uh but there was an interesting study came out of Scotland and it looked at h because Scotland would have very similar weather to Ireland kind of dreary damp not a lot of sunshine but what they showed was the women who had when they did it is looked at women's e um external access like outdoor access. The women who had more daylight, now they're not getting much sun, but the women who had more daylight in the first trimester of pregnancy were more were less likely to have a uh pre-term baby. So that just in Scotland and then then in a Chinese study uh it was on artificial light at night and it was showing some now we're going to need more research in this but women that are exposed to a lot of artificial light at night especially in the first trimester where those babies tend had a tendency it was trending towards more heart defects in the babies. So it's not innocuous. It's not light is is is important and the right light at the right time. That's that's the key. >> And there it's probably and you you have a lot more experience with this with there it's probably also common sense, right? You want some light during the first, second, probably also the third trimester, but in a balanced way, not too much, but also not too little. >> Yeah, absolutely. And light even affects labor. Yeah. light affects your melatonin, how it works you with your oxytocin. So if if we put on bright lights in labor, we will change your contraction pattern. So if you're if anyone's watching this and they're about to have a baby, when you go into that hospital, wear blue blockers. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> And turn off all the lights and make sure no one's putting on on on because it can have an impact on how your labor progresses. That makes a lot of sense, surprised by it, because every every single almost every I think every single process in inside human biology is tied to the cicadian rhythm and the light getting into your eyes. >> Tracy, to switch topics, I think you did almost 50 podcasts with most of them, if not all of them on female health and wellness and fertility, etc. like what are your some of the main lessons you've learned from interviewing so many people on this topic? Because just also to because I'm I'm curious I get the same level of overwhelm that sometimes people get when they get come to the channel of Alex and I and they see like >> oh my god I would need to watch like 400 videos or something which can be overwhelming. I know that and the website what are like 200 >> I I'll tell you it was part partially for selfish reasons. Yeah. because I wanted to learn from the experts. Yeah. >> So when I started you know K you know learning and taking that deep dive into light therapy I'm like I can sit and I can read papers till the cows come home. But I wanted to talk to you know the scientists who I can get it you know straight from the horse's mouth what's going on in the current research. So like they even have like Professor Jeff like I I was even surprised he accepted my invitation to come on and and some of the other guests like they they are they they live this they live photobiomodulation. Um so for me it was this is a really great way for me to learn more and for for everyone else then to learn along with me really how how this therapy can can really just be lifechanging. And it's uh yeah, I'm excited for for kind of what what what's ahead. >> And I know uh Professor Glen Jeffy's research with with the blue lights and the mice and sensitivity, but also with the red light that that they shine on the back of human participants, which changes the blood glucose levels. >> Yeah. And that's and that's a simple intervention as well. when when I'm working with my uh pregnant moms, it's like not only do you have to get light outside, get yourself some some light so that you can you're using it on your skin as well so that we can because gestational diabetes another metabolic issue. If a mom is not well controlling her blood sugars, it then sometimes it's you know induction is suggested and we have this whole kind of downstream effect of intervention. So if a simple way is for for you know these expectant moms to sit outside, eat outside when you can and let let the sun help you process that glucose or get yourself a red light. It's a 670 nanometer and uh yeah, help yourself have a healthy pregnancy. >> Yeah, makes sense. If we take a step back to to like all that research you already mentioned, sometimes on some topics the the research more research available, sometimes it's only a case study. Can you tell me a little bit about that on on different topics? >> Yeah. Well, I guess well, I guess my what the aspect that I mostly focus on is fertility. Yeah. So, for me, so there's I think there's like there's kind of two or three studies that most people especially if they are learning about light for for fertility will have heard about they'll have heard about Dr. Oshiro's protocol. They will know about the giga laser uh work. Um what else? Uh there's a couple of there's about three studies that are kind of mainstream but there's act all overall there is about uh 25 I think about 25 studies and [clears throat] again some of them are you know case study case series there's been a couple of randomized control trials and and those ones that are you know because we want to see studies that are methodologically sound you know it's and a case study is not we we can't ignore case studies because case studies are important And we can't again like because I I find it challenging the fact that okay so we don't have a randomized control trial on using light for lykan sclerosis or we don't have a you know big trials some small trials. It's like so what do we do then? Do we just expect women just to to do without or do we we help women? Okay, let's let's work with this tool and and and see if there's a way that we can look at what little bit of research there is and extrapolate that into a protocol that might work for you. So, I know there's like there's a there's a huge amount of kind of experimentation going on kind of in in the world at the moment when it comes to light therapy. because it is reasonably safe. Unless you're messing around with nerves in intimate places, we can a lot of the women that I work with, if there's something that there's there's just nothing out there in in uh in the data that we look at, well, what what else could be similar to that or has a similar profile that we could uh try and it's and I think women just want to to be have somebody listen to them and and try to offer them something else other than medication if there even is medication available to help them. >> Yeah, that makes sense. And especially that you mentioned the 25 studies, they are on different topics, right? That's that shows you how sparse the research is right now, especially when there are some case studies involved. And that shows you also how important it is that there's good guidance here with >> yeah clinical experience because you working with so many people probably have a lot more data on this topic privately available because you know what works and what doesn't for that reason >> and it's even like I I I would I would love nothing more than to to sit on a deserted island and reach uh read research all day you know it's it's I I really enjoy the research aspect of it but you do like even when I because as I'm learning more as well, you know, as you know, I have my my Google alert set up every day to show me all the photobiomodulation studies that are out and um but like even something as simple as the fact that the liver is under so much stress when you're doing IVF because of all the like really intensive medications that that women are taking that we can use light over the liver to support that that detox and because we've got huge oxidative stress that it's this push and pull. We're trying to yeah to to create these follicles, but we're also creating a huge amount of stress in the body as well and and how we balance that. >> And even I I this is kind of off topic, but not another study around fertility and sleep apnea. Yeah. So, I had never really made that that connection with that sleep apnea because you're you're going through these periods of hypoxia where you're not breathing and it's creating more stress in the body. But I I study that I just looked at yesterday was looking at um supporting the liver for for people who have because they're more if you have sleep apnea, you know, you've got, you know, a whole host of other metabolic issues that's usually going on. But if we can support the liver, it uh really helps insulin resistance for someone who has sleep apnea. So there's yeah, there's so much I could talk all day about >> liver makes perfect sense to me because we we have a report in our Facebook group of and I know that there's also not too much human research on this topic, but people using the panels for their kidney function and it there's a massive improvement there. And secondly, you mentioned the GigaLacer earlier in in terms of fertility. The the founder of that company, I think, Power Medatic, he told us at at like conference PBM 2024 in London that like he used the gigal laser, I think on the lower back and on I think only on the lower back, but but maybe also at the at the front of the reproductive organs of women. And some of them actually reverse after they were in menopause for a few years. they regained their period with that which is that shows you how strong the effect can be of targeted light therapy which which also brings me to maybe a very important question that we haven't covered yet like uh safety and side effects Tracy can you tell me anything about that I I know it's not in the list of questions I sent you before this uh but it's probably very important to include here now that I hear >> yeah I mean it's I mean for anyone out there if they if you've whatever device you have I would say follow the manufacturer's instructions to start with and and keep it low and low and slow when you're starting off. If you are using any kind of laser that you're using the the protective glasses, we don't we don't want to put it over any kind of any new kind of lesion or anything that looks a bit suspicious on the skin. Generally, we don't use it directly on the thyroid unless we are doing a specific thyroid um protocol. The laser you probably mean with the thyroid, right? Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. And then not and again if you're pregnant then we're not using it over the over the bump. Yeah. >> I I think that'll you know because if we're looking at again even if you're using like a panel or or laser you know the amount of light that's penetrating. I mean it's this the tissue skit thins out as a pregnancy you know because the bump expands and the tissues uh thin. But I I think we're going to see you know generally the rule is don't put the light on the bump. But I think when you look at the the difference in the energy that you're receiving if you're lying out in the sun for a couple of hours with the bump exposed compared to a little bit of light at home, I I I think we're going to see that'll that'll eventually go away. And I know um uh Dr. Hamlin has has like says there's there's no problem with light on on the bump. And even like the the I I think we we will see kind of down the road more ways of using light especially for babies that are born hypoxic. So they've had oxygen deprivation. So because we're already seeing you know what's happening out there with stroke victims you know that we can getting light on the brain. So getting light on on these newborn babies who may have been oxygen deprived will be really important. Yeah. There's just Yeah. So, at the moment, we're not using light on newborns. That's [laughter] we're their their skin is too thin. Yeah. H we don't have any data and it's and they can't turn away from the light. So, it's uh I I would just because I know some some parents have, you know, they use their their kind of red light panel in in their room, but I'm like, get a nice little red dim red light for your room or orange light for if you're up during a night breastfeeding or or changing diapers, but not the really intense um panels. >> Of course, when you when you talk talking about the contra indications or side effects, etc. That is all with normal use, right? If people uses and and I can imagine in this case uh fertility, pregnancy etc. It's a little bit more sensitive generally always in the same way that you can abuse the sun and I can go outside in the sun here which is very strong for 10 hours and get a horrible sunburn in the same way people can use the devices incorrectly but like in normal circumstances correct me if I'm wrong but you would say that it's very safe have you ever seen any side effects even if it's mild or uh in any of our clients >> re well no really not I mean maybe transient like just like you know sometimes as I said if I'm working on one side of a cesarian wound we'll feel a tingle on the other side but no no pain as such the the odd times someone might feel a little fluy the next day or just a little or so or or a little tired that evening and I think that that part of that is just that they have just they haven't they haven't had any near infrared in a very long time and their body is trying trying to I guess you know process uh this energy that they've been uh kind of exposed to. But I haven't touch wood and I think that's because I'm I'm quite conservative. >> Yeah. >> In in what I do as well and be Yeah. Because you just it's it's it is easy to to fall into that. Oh, you know, and and especially for with with fertility when when women are taking so many supplements and they really don't like there's about four supplements I would suggest, but they're like taking 20. Yeah. um because I feel like I more is better and and massive doses of antioxidants and like [clears throat] we don't we don't know what we we assume it's safe but it's there's there's uh yeah less is more I think >> and what others for supplements your your >> uh so into that I don't know uh >> yeah so I would say for anyone who's trying to get to get pregnant and this is for for partners as well so um a uh anti-inflammatory. So, uh omega-3s. >> Yeah. >> Uh vitamin D. If you can get your vitamin D outside, get your vitamin D outside and not in a in a pill form. Uh CoQ10 again for mitochondrial support. Uh trying to think LC carnitine for men. >> Yeah, there's no B12 for women. There's actually not very many. And and for anyone who's on like long long like if you're been trying to get pregnant for a while and you're you're doing lots of antioxidants, you know, take a break from them or if you're taking uh iron or whatever, you know, we're if we're addressing a supplement, a deficiency, then you don't need to take it for a year. We need to adjust your nutrition and look at like look at the bigger picture. You shouldn't be on supplements for long periods of time if uh without kind of understanding what else is uh contributing to you thinking you need every supplement um under the sun. But then diet as well just again an anti-inflammatory diet, the Mediterranean diet, getting rid of all all of the >> right >> the drink and the cigarettes and the vaping and all of that. Um yeah >> yeah even vaping right in many cases. >> Oh yeah yeah yeah >> yeah that that makes sense. If we go back to the light therapy like let's say you have new clients how how many how much time does it take and I know it probably varies per case per case and goal especially but how how much time does it take to get results or see see results because yeah you already talked about several cycles in some cases. Yeah, it depends. So for fertility, I my kind of baseline is I want you to stick with a protocol for three months. >> So and and unfortunately sometimes I have, you know, women will come to me and they're starting an IVF cycle next week, but they've just heard about light therapy. So because I'm I'll be honest with people like I don't I don't think you should waste your money on, you know, you buying a device or, you know, just a week before an IVF cycle. I just think there's a better way to do this and I would say go and do this cycle and let's create a plan for let's hope we don't even need it and that this is the cycle that you know you're you know you're happily pregnant but in the event you do let's have a plan for we want to go three cycles and we should see results so it's it's one aspect for me it's like if I'm not if there's not changes happening then we have to adjust the protocol something's something's missing so when when sometimes people will contact me and they say, "I have this device and I've been using it." I'm like, "Well, what are you tracking? What's going on? How what's your cycle length? How's your bleeding? H are you having any spotting?" And if we're seeing changes, then we know the light is having an effect. But if they're, you know, standing a mile away from a panel >> and they're like, "No, I don't know if it's working." And I'm like, well, probably not because it there's things that there's things that we can do to optimize that light and but we should see changes. I don't want my clients wondering if it's helping. I want them to be able to either they're going to see it in their blood work, their their hormone levels are changing, they're getting nice big follicles that are rupturing uh and and ovulation and a nice ludial phase. We're getting that. and we've had a couple of cycles where we've been working towards that, then I'm happy. But if we're not seeing, you know, objective change that we can track then and I'm like, yeah, well, we've got to review it. But I do ask women to stick with a program for three months using that protocol because sometimes they'll say, "Oh, you know, well, I think I need to go up higher in power because I'm using usually the low because I'm like I this is like a recipe and the recipe works when you you know you you do all you know all the bits and you follow the recipe but they want to go because I think higher will know and I was like no no no let's follow along and usually what happens is we follow along and we get the result that we want and I don't like to mess around unless it's uh there's actually an issue with the protocol, something else is going on. But if they're tracking changes and I want them to give it three months because that's you know what what for you know that nice uh follicle that's being recruited and right from the very beginning. >> Yeah, makes sense. And this this is probably not only the case for like fertility but also like pelvic floor issues or endometriosis or PCOS or in many of the CA and I know yeah I know from looking a little bit at the research not as closely as you that in in most of these cases it's also again it's not just the light therapy it's also your diet sunshine movement etc. >> It's a it's a combination. Yeah. and and we've got we have to have all the pieces working together. I think you know we do unfortunately live in a culture where we want the quick fix. >> Yeah. >> It's like oh this is like three months commitment or a pill and it's like yeah I know it's it's yeah I I get it but it's you know if if it's worth the commitment and and but as I said consistency is so important. So you can't just use it for two days and then forget and then we'll use it next week and then say it didn't work or it's or you're not tracking changes. So, uh, so I mean it's for some women, especially with, um, kind of with with like lyan sclerosis or kind of vaginal pain if they're if they're being consistent. And sometimes I'll I'll include um acupressure points as well that they'll that they'll also use that have been very effective for pelvic pain. But sometimes these women will have like a significant decrease in pain within two weeks. Now I I don't set that expectation. I say let's follow the protocol for 12 weeks and let's see where we're at. But if you know and you're going to track this and and if in you know by four weeks we're not seeing even subtle improvements then let's go back and look at what needs uh adjusting. But I usually for something like that for pelvic pain I'll usually say look work with a pelvic floor therapist and let's let's you know commit to this for three months 12 weeks couple of times a week for 10 minutes 15 minutes at the most and they do they get you know it's that consistency and in the beginning I know you want to fast forward to see oh you know I want to how's this going to look in in six weeks but if you if you just kind of be patient for a lot of of these conditions it's taken a while to get you here. So let's give the body the chance just to respond to the light in a nice kind of gentle fashion. >> Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, in the case of many of the conditions, person does an intake with you and then generally the expectation is that it's not just a light therapy, it's also a lifestyle, nutrition, etc. all of these factors usually and then from there once people start implementing it can anywhere be anywhere from weeks to months until people I can understand right pain usually can respond very quickly to something but of course I imagine fertility I know in case of male fertility there's often more time that goes into that before you can fully improve that >> yeah well well not not necessarily because we in um for if it's just motility Yeah. >> Um the light can have an impact on it within an hour. >> Yeah. >> So it's but if we're talking about the actual spermogenesis and and getting like that that sperm really healthy from the the germ to fully developed then we've got to give it like about uh I think it's like 70 76 days or so. So we want to just kind of again especially with if we've got a lot of DNA damage that we're we're working with as well. So, so it can for someone who has relatively kind of healthy healthy sperm, yeah, within within an hour we see in an increase in motility. So, but for them for you know deeper issues then or sometimes even with uh prostatitis and it's uh again it's nice immune modulator. we can help with that and even sometimes a little uh pain for uh for for some of the uh the partners. So, it's it is and it's an I I like the way it it brings the partners together. That's something that they're doing collectively for uh and they're both looking at their diet and they're both looking at their lifestyle as well. So, everything when I when I send it my um my protocol, it's like this is not just for the woman. your partner should be reading this as well and and and making the rest of these uh these adjustments too. >> I can comment a little bit on that from the male side because I've got some friends work working literally just a run optimization for for CEOs, executives, etc. And often yeah, these men are like completely stressed working 70 60 70 hours a week on the blue lights eating like crap. And often there they're so much type A types that they get gym at 4:30 on an empty stomach hard workout on the blue light on some coffee or stimulants and then often it takes takes like two or three months if they follow the protocol not perfectly but recently we were well to get like the testosterone levels back >> back to like decent levels. Yeah. And of course, the older you get, the the longer it will take for men to repair that. But yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be perfect as I say like that whole 8020 rule because I think >> uh I think as well like I think women are just are far more motivated especially when the fertility stuff and it's like for men like you know like it's and the women will will sometimes just go overboard with you know the the type A and and and and doing all things and and uh but I think yeah the 8020 if we're if we're almost there and we're you know Mediterranean diet you know cutting out the the candy and but the odd treat is fine. You know, you have to live >> and and why do you think that is that men are like more and women more biological clock or >> Yeah, I think the clock is uh is part of it and as well and because I see this with my with my uh pregnant clients as well whereas you know the the mom is like she has her head in all the books. She's reading everything on the planet. She's writing her birth preferences and the dad's got it's it's not re because it's not not that it's not real for the dads, but it's it's still kind of theoretical that there's a baby coming. like they've spent a fortune on baby stuff, but when this is this is is part of your body and growing inside you, it's it's very uh you you don't you don't forget you're pregnant, you know, [laughter] whereas when you're uh I think for the dads when they're, you know, off doing, you know, they're you know, off at work, whatever, it's it's like you can forget, oh, we're actually going to have a baby in couple of months time. >> Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Of course, it is more theoretical for men because we don't have the bomb here. So, is there anything last that you want want to add, Tracy, or anything that you think I haven't covered yet? Anything important? >> Yeah, I think we've covered a lot. I have uh yeah I yeah this is one of my favorite topics in the world to to chat about but I yeah if anyone has any questions I want to reach out um >> below or we also keep the link to your website tracy donigan.org or I think right we'll add that below also the Tracy Dunigan uh podcast we'll add that below right yeah I just >> and my blog as well because my blog >> for like I have I've so many so many blogs on on light therapy and fertility and and pregnancy just women's health in general but the reason why is because like I mine might I might put out three blogs a week some weeks because for me it's an exercise in if I come across a really fascinating paper. I'm like, well, if I'm interested it, maybe someone else will be as well. And it's for me, it's a it's a kind of a memory tool. So, I I go to the paper like, yeah, I'm going to keep this for uh in in plain English for when I come back to it in uh a couple of months time. And uh I think it's again, I think the more good information we can get out there for women and their partners, the better. It's uh I think we're going to see some really exciting changes with with light therapy in the next couple years and and pretty more targeted light therapy for specific conditions. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you so much, Tracy. Yeah, people go to her website, of course, YouTube channel, etc., and read her blog and her Instagram I saw because I think you're a little bit of a type A person because I see like you as a single person I think are are updating your your Instagram more often than Alex and I with a >> excited and like oh people need to know this I need to tell people about this like oh I'm just put it out to the world and uh somebody the right people will find it I trust that. Yeah, absolutely. And of course you can find her in our Facebook group. So >> yeah, thank you so much and thank you. >> Yeah, lovely to meet you. >> Very nice to meet you. >> Take care.