Real Signs You’re Growing Spiritually | Devil in the Castle Chapter 3 (Part 2)

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. >> I didn't know this was a fight. That's why you're losing. Today, we are beginning either to domesticate the devil or else to deny him. He is most powerful when he is denied. >> Welcome to the devil's in the details. The devil may be in the details, but God is on the throne. >> Man, I love that. >> Yeah. It's >> interesting. I've been watching um House of David. >> Mhm. >> And uh I've never So I've studied The Book of Samuel and and it's a great film series, by the way. It's on Amazon Prime. Very well done. Uh there's a lot of liberties taken, but pretty, you know, the fundamental biblical story is there. The cinematography is extraordinary. The acting is fantastic. But what's interesting about it is uh I have never immersed myself in a story with a king before so deeply because of this movie and getting so when I think of God is on the throne there's a lot of discussion about the throne of Saul who's in real power Saul's losing his way and all of that. So anyway, the devil's in the details. God is on the throne and the devil in the in the in the movie in the series is of course always working through these various people. But um it's just interesting of thinking of God on the throne because the throne is is is very powerful place to be of course which David is inheriting because he's the the the one chosen of God and way more powerful than the devil's place because the anointed one is David comes into contact with a witch and she doesn't know who he is but she then she she discovers who he is by uh how would you call spiritual communication. She's like uh you're not who are you? You know this is not and so the movie rightly depicts the distinction that we are doing we're very clearly laying out in the name and the title of the show and the tagline of God is the one on the throne. >> Yeah. And so in the movie, David is the guy ascending to the throne and the demonic has very little to say about that or nothing really to say. They the demonic fights him but in the end and a lot of bloodshed, lot of intrigue, a lot of, you know, backstabbing and all this other manipulation, but he's still the one who's going to ascend to the throne because he's God's chosen one. >> It's even worse the reality of what this show is about. God is like the devil. If if if the Lord had an inkling of deciding to destroy him and eliminate all of what he does, he could do that. He just with >> blink an eye and it's >> a blink of an a wink like no effort. One of the We've talked about this in the show before. The dumbest meme ever created. The person ought to go to hell just for creating the meme because it's so stupid is Jesus arm wrestling with Satan. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> That is the It is such a It is such a horrifyingly stupid lie. >> Yeah. >> You know, and I always laugh too. I' I've said this many times. People name their teams after, you know, we're we're the demons. Like, >> yeah, you're the demons. Aren't we quivering at that? Right. >> Those who know that um a a meager priest a a uh which you know I'm thinking back to ex exorcism ministry and and working with this very feeble but incredibly in Christ powerful priest. >> Yeah. I can think of several actually who are very just >> super humble. >> Yeah. And Yeah. Anyway. >> All right. Sorry to go off on the title of the show. >> No, it's good. So you want to walk us in? Um this is the part two of the third mansion and uh we we spent a lot of time on fear in the last one and proper properly ordered fear. So you can go back anyone can go back and listen to that if they want to catch up. But what are we getting into in in this part two? So, so what I wanted to cover in this one is indicators of progress moving into the third mansion that come you know directly out of course everything comes from St. Theresa Babala's writings although some like the three ways as an overlay to understand it but the indicators uh of progress in the third mansion are the soul has overcome its initial struggles with sin and temptation and is rightly understood uh this is rightly understood in this context to mean that he's overcome habitual mortal sin. So that means the third mansion is the threshold at the end of the third mansion if you will. So you're coming through the mansion and through all that the third mansion has for you. The end of it is the end of the purgative way in the purgative illuminative unitive framework. >> Okay. >> So the fourth mansion is you're coming into the contemplative domain. The the the the first, second and third mansion are mansions of self knowledge of fighting you know uh mortal sin and overcoming that then beginning to fight venial sin having a prayer life begin and then mature. So you've been So um the effect of a prayer life that begins the day you enter the castle really I think it's the best way to understand it. And so that means by the time you get to the third mansion you've been praying for at least a year. I don't know I don't know how many people I know that have been first you know mansion 123 you've made quite fast progress but you've been you've been praying a mental prayer at least a year that's meditating on the gospels. And so what's the effect? You have a strong desire to avoid offending God. You work hard to avoid committing even venial sins. Loves doing penance, acts of self-denial and reparation for sin. Since spends a significant time in prayer daily, uses time well because there's this awareness that you know I owe God my very existence and my salvation. So I want to give my life in a very deliberate way. Uh practices works of charity. Why? Because love is begin beginning beginning to build. Selflessness is beginning to build up in the person. The awareness of the needs of others is beginning to become more prominent. When we get when I get through this list, I'm interested to know if any of these have been prominent in your life. Um very uh careful in the use of speech. Now this this is this has been a challenge for me and I have to be careful on that side. But um uh have made a huge amount of progress there. very careful in matters of dis concerning dress. So I don't wear dresses anymore. No kidding. Joke. Never have worn a dress in my life. Um, no, but uh what it means is that I'm I care about how I affect other people fundamentally, right? >> And so the way I comport myself to the way I dress and you know, it's interesting. I was just in mass yesterday >> and some where was I? I won't say where, but it wasn't in our town. Yeah. >> Um, so no no priests here are in trouble. But and not only that, they wouldn't be anyway, but somebody came through mass with dolphin a girl with dolphin shorts. Those super short uh shorts that you should wear only when you're in a swimming pool or, >> you know, doing some kind of sports thing. >> And that was pretty shocking. Somebody who's mature spiritually would never do that just because they care about others and they know that affects others. Nor should guys dress inappropriately or whatever. but um very diligent in the management of household. That means their life is not uh chaotic. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. It's interesting. It it all seem or the majority of it anyway seems to be a external awareness that is deepened on a on a level to where you there's always that interior reflection. So, I'm thinking about uh use of speech, dress specifically, and uh committing avoiding committing medial sins. So, you're you have an interior reflection of where you are at, but also >> it's based on almost a more exterior reflection of how is my behavior impacting others around me? Am I causing scandal? Yeah. >> Would God approve of this? Right? >> You know what I mean? So, it seems to me it's all even though there's that inward component, it's all very outwardly focused. >> Yeah. It's because of love. >> Yeah. >> Your care about other people. What's interesting is the the the sin that you've pointed out is the most prominent, which I agree, not the worst sin that's the most prominent, but it's the most prominent sin among faithful Catholics, if you will, is our sins of the tongue. >> And the way they interact online and just you and you'll notice that none of them are in the third match. And by the way, I could have, you know, maybe I could have been pegged for that a few years ago. I don't know. But none of them are in the third mansion because none because you can't be, you know, not caring about and you can't be and and you know, part of the problem is I I've said this before. One of my friends scoffs at, you know, this claim that there the tone is off. And the reason he scoffs at it, it's cuz he's never read the New Testament and paid attention. He's read the New Testament, I'm sure. never just paid attention though to how the Holy Spirit constantly directs us to kindness, gentleness, patience, which all have a tone, >> you know. So, yeah. So, >> well, and tone is disposition towards another, too. I mean, >> it's an interior disposition that affects an external way of comporting, >> right? And I was it today or yesterday talking the the scripture was talking about um hating your brother, you know, and if you hate your brother, you're you're a goner essentially. You're a liar. Yeah. you know, you're a murderer is what is the language he uses. >> And so, you know, you have to think about, well, if my tone to towards this person is dismissive or mocking or, >> you know, whatever, do I really love that person? And I would say you don't, right? >> You don't otherwise you wouldn't be acting in that way. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? So, so anyway, >> very good. So that said, we can shift to what I cover then in the third mansion, which is helping the reader to understand to kind of back up and go, okay, what's this look like from a holistic perspective so they so they don't get discouraged and or they get encouraged about where they're headed, you know, because I I I think one of the effects of the teaching this which I did also in navigating the interior life but for a slightly different purpose. It wasn't spiritual warfare based is so that you understand where you are and where h how to comport yourself how to orient your heart and mind to what God does in these various stages. Um but the most common effect is humility. Uh, I had a secretary, a wonderful human being, read Navigating the Interior Life and told me it made her cry. And the reason it made her cry is because she thought she was more advanced than she was. >> And it was it was like a blow, you know, and and I had a business guy, a great guy, um, very generous guy get irritated with me about it. He's like, "Can't you just call the purgative something different or the can't you call it not childhood or something?" I was like, well, no, that's the the verbiage of the saint. >> It's indicative of how their response is indicative of where there is the secretary. If she's sorrowful on it, that shows humility where the guy, and I'm not making any grand statements, but if he's struggling with it, then there's still an attachment and lack of humility and accepting where you're at. >> Well, and I will say he I watched him become more and more humble over time just through various different interactions. Really exceptional human being. No, no doubt about it. So the per so the the the um the three ways are attributable to a a St. Dianius and there's the most common scholarship is questionable about who he really was and and you know that sort of thing. There's a recent publication out that questions the most common uh scholarship. So we don't really care about any of that. What the reason is is it's become a kind of universal norm that doctors of the church use uh John of the cross being the most prominent uh Terresa Abala um St. Thomas Aquinas you know it and then all of the doctors the spiritual doctors of the church which would include St. Francis de Sales St. Katherine of Sienna uh St. Bernard of Clairvo it would all of those uh doctors recognize there are normal phases in the spiritual life. Why did they recognize it? Because all of them were in the business of or in the in the the occupation of helping souls to come to union with God. >> And so they watched all the patterns. And I totally get it. I've mentioned this before as being the founder of a community and just interacting with thousands and thousands of people. I've watched I've watched it in you. I've watched you go from pre-purgative, which is where you're circling the drain and you're fundamentally heading to hell, though baptized and and confirmed as a Catholic. and I you know choosing a Catholic identity and we've even talked about that a little bit through the book to where I think you're at least you know somewhere mid to late purgative I don't know maybe maybe beyond you you only you and your spiritual director know but you've made a ton of progress >> right yeah and I I don't I don't know if this is helpful for anyone and you can tell me if I'm wrong I don't focus on where I'm at >> I focus on improvement >> which is interesting because I'm a very systematic systemsoriented person. >> Yeah. >> And measuring for growth like I don't when I go work out I I track how much weight, how many reps, how much time >> is there an improvement, you know? So I'm very generally systematic >> when it comes to this specific thing. My goal is and partially because I've seen people completely just wig out trying to figure out where they're at, right? And I believe Teresa even says somewhere in here, you know better than I would, that you can exhibit things that it's it's not like black the stages are not necessarily black and white and all things, >> right? >> So you'll have people who can exhibit things from the second mansion, but they might be in the fourth mansion sort of a thing, >> which leads So this is really important. We get we need to kind of dig into this. >> Sure. So I want to try to remember to get to that issue and whether or not you can be in two mansions at once. >> Sure. >> In a minute. >> The fundamentally Teresa says you need to know where you are or have a general sense so that you know how to to yield to God. >> Sure. Sure. >> Or you know what to place emphasis on. >> So yet so you do need to know it. Mhm. >> What's But what you've pinpointed is something that uh Eugene Boland did in his um uh difficulties in mental prayer book is that people can become obsessed with the rungs on the latter and he I think he had in reference to St. John Clamicus's latter of divine ascent >> his writings which are very good and worth reading >> um where he describes a kind of step-wise progression and his criticism is nobody knows exactly where they are only God knows and the answer is that's true >> right >> what I've always taught is you need to be concerned with your trajectory >> yes >> which is what you just inunciated >> in in different words that's exact yeah because it's it's not that I don't well I'll say it this way I don't have a desire to know in the sense that I must know this thing in order to move forward >> right >> I want a general awareness of where I'm at >> but I'm I'm focused on constantly just doing better >> right and that's like very powerful and very important um uh so I want to say but but not but because it's not a counterpoint also Yeah, >> you need to know, okay, where am I heading? I'll give you an example. If you if you begin practicing daily mental prayer, it's really important that you know what is it what normally happens. >> Um because here's the norm. The norm is you begin and you you receive a lot of consolations. It's very encouraging. And then the norm is that begins to wayne. And then there's a point at which you get confused because you don't want to do it anymore. >> And there's a and and there's a point at which you can't do it anymore. And now what the heck are you supposed to do? >> Well, that's all clearly laid out with John of the Cross. And so the reason you need to know is so that when you arrive in those places, you don't get discouraged. you you what you do is you go okay exactly right what you're saying what what do you need to focus on is your next right step right >> then I'll get to and then but I know I've been taught and I receive this is going to happen later and then I'll need to seek out spiritual direction or reading or whatever so that's the proper orientation what's the next right step for you know the vast majority of Catholics are in the purgative way and in early purgative and and my my conversations always go like this. Uh how is your how are you how are you dealing with confession? Do you understand the the fundamental dynamics of confession which 99 probably 99% of Catholics don't? >> And that that may sound you know overly judgmental but it's just like what's a firm purpose of amendment? You know what is authentic contrition? Do you even have to go to a priest? You know, I just think most people are going to get those questions wrong. >> Yeah. >> And and most people are stuck in habitual mortal sin. >> Well, to just to back you up on that, whenever I post about fasting, I guarantee and and my friends who do the same thing, they all know when I post this thing, I'm going to get so many messages from people who have no concept of the fact that you are required to fast on certain days, right? Or abstinence on certain day. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just something which is that basic and fundamental to the faith and knowledge of the faith is at a zero to 1% for the majority of Catholics out there let alone something more complex like the firm purpose of amendment like not abusing confession and things like that >> and not abusing the sacrament. I mean, we can never miss the opportunity to say if you have committed mortal sin >> and you go to receive the Lord, you might as well be dumping all of the the blood of Christ on the floor, dumping all the Eucharist on the floor and trampling on it, >> right? >> It is a grave sin on grave sin. >> Stop receiving communion unless you're living in a state of grace or you went to confession before you received. And so many good priests, thanks be to God. It seems more and more that I'm experiencing have confession before mass. >> Certainly we do in our parish. >> So, but most are struggling with habitual mortal sin. And my I so I say, "How are your sacraments?" Good. How's your daily mental prayer? Good. Nothing else in your life is more important than you getting past habitual mortal sin. Nothing. >> You're a dad. Great. Make sure you're being a dad, but your job isn't as important because you're an open door to the enemy getting access to your family through your stupid mortal sin. >> Do do you not I mean the example I always use downtown Bessmer, you know, top three of violent crimes per 100,000. Would you live there without a front door? >> What the hell, and I want to say hell because it has to do with hell. Are you doing If you're not giving all your energy to figuring out how to stop living this way, >> you're you're a nut. >> Yeah. >> You're stupid. >> You're you're not right. You don't get it. And I'm saying this out of love because I don't want you to be stupid. >> But you're hurting your family. >> Yeah. >> Like if you if there's not enough motivation for you to, you know, get right for yourself, think about your kids. You are the strong man of your domain. If you're weak like that, which mortal sin means no to God, yes to the devil, it's it's I literally I want the devil's plan. You're choosing that, which means then there is no door protecting your family from those who want to break in and wreck the rest of your family. >> Not to mention that the enemy is actively looking for an entrance, particularly in fathers and husbands, >> more so than anything else, >> because you're the strong man. Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So, all that ranting aside, >> and by the way, that that was an exhortation of love. So, we just talked about tonality. >> Oh, yeah. That was kind of mean, was it? >> Well, it was it, you know, it's in this in this Well, let's be clear. If you were talking to someone one-on-one and direction, >> I would never say that. Well, and I always make the distinction when you're speaking publicly, you need to be bold and strong and clear and hard. >> When you're speaking privately, it's gentle peace, you know? It's >> it's and I don't want to make general condemnations, you know, I want to say, >> you know, the Lord has an amazing plan for your life >> and you're not walking it and you're going to go to hell and you're going to take your family with you. >> And I will say also when you're talking to men, that kind of language is actually the norm and it should be the norm and it's vastly more effective in most cases. >> Can I just give testimony to that? Yeah. >> So, I just got done teaching 95 guys who are heading into seminary uh spiritual warfare and discernment of spirits >> and and I think at least three have come back and said, "I'm I was going to leave. I was going to quit and I'm not going to quit anymore." And they and a bunch of them have said, "I so appreciate your directness. >> You know, it's so important. It's so helpful for me to hear with the intensity that you're giving it because I it woke me up. Yeah. >> You know, I never looked at sin the way you're talking about sin. I never looked at my responsibility. The all of these things are coming back. Thanks be to God. These some of these guys are going to become our future priests and are going to be are going to help other people get free. So many so many priests and and this is why our program exists is don't get free even in and through and seminary and past ordination. They all need to be free. >> All right. So the interior life is and I is broken up into three stages. The one thing I wanted to get back to was a myth and that is can you be >> in two stages at one time. >> In two stages at one time. Now if there if there's stages one you know so let's say stage one purgative two eliminative three unitive so can I be in stage one and two can I when I'm transitioning can I be yes but can a baby a toddler be an adult? No. >> Right. Right. Can a young man who is uh past puberty and into young adulthood act in sometimes like a man and sometimes like a boy. >> Yeah. I mean I watched it with you, >> right? I did it when I was a kid. >> So those things can be true, but it isn't true that you can be in the fifth mansion and the first mansion, right? >> Just doesn't work like that. So, and also the distinctions of what God does between the purgative and luminative way, you can be in a transition period for a little while, but after, you know, when it's when you're in, when you're out, you're out. I mean, if you you either have overcome habitual sin or you haven't. >> I mean, you can't be in the illuminative way and have a vitual sin. I had a big uh challenging conversation with one of my students one time. this, you know, good woman who wanted to believe the best of herself is constantly popping off at her kids and yelling and screaming at her kids, but convinced she was in the illuminative way. And I'm saying, "Sister, you have a wrath issue." >> Yeah. >> And I don't know exactly how you yell at your children, but you've told me it, so it's probably pretty significant pattern. >> You're not spiritually healthy, >> right? >> And and the fact that you want to hold on to the fact to the idea that you are means you have pride. Mhm. >> And you're really disordered and and I want you to be free. I was much nicer, of course, you know, and this is years ago. Much nicer in my correspondence, but I was firm. >> Mhm. >> Because they they wanted to believe there was someplace else. >> So then, but is it true to say that you can have characteristics from one mansion? So let's say that you are firmly in the third. >> Mhm. Could you and I guess maybe you know God can do whatever he wants but is it normative rather to have characteristics from another mansion. >> So let me so this is where it gets confusing. >> There are certain characteristics that cannot be true and you be in the illuminative way. >> Sure. However, I'll give you so mention six, which we'll talk through later, uh, speaks about locationions and how to discern when you hear things that are supernatural. I had locationions in the first mansion, >> right? Which confused me at the time, >> right? I experienced loions in the first mansion and I experienced some other supernatural things which I'll some of which I'll talk about some I'll never talk about >> and I and but it was given to me at that time to help me. So sometimes there are which is what but >> I got you now this is why mental prayer you being specific with what St. Teresa speaks about in terms of how you determine where you are. Are your is your sacramental life healthy? >> Yes or no? Um if it's not healthy, you're not in the illuminative way period. It's just not possible. >> Is your life of sin under control? Generally speaking, if it's not, you're not in the illuminative way. >> Oh, I got a looutution and I'm in habitual sin. That happened to me. Mhm. >> That's a different issue. That's a different characteristic that you can't >> you can't use it to apply to where you're at. >> Right. And this is the main mistake the fun the biggest mistake. I'm curious. I'm going to ask you the question. Pop quiz. You ready? >> Yeah. Gosh, I'm tired. We'll see what happens. >> What is What is the biggest mistake of uh of folks reading the interior castle and trying to judge where they are? What's the criteria they choose all the time which is the exact wrong criteria to determine how where they are are in the purgative illuminative or unitive way. >> Is it related to locations? >> Yes. >> I am hearing the voice of God. Therefore, I'm in >> Yeah. So, you're close. Mystical experience. Oh, >> okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, what is here's another pop quiz question for you. >> I didn't have enough caffeine to >> for this. What is the primary determinant of where you are in the stages or in the in mansions? The the number one indicator of your spiritual growth, >> I would say humility. >> Okay, that's close. It's really important. It's love. >> Okay. >> But, you know, those kind of go >> two sides of the same coin. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Humility is absolutely necessary to get through the purgative way and beyond. >> Yeah. Because even even when you're talking about like locationions and things of that nature, I you know, and maybe we've mentioned this, I'm not sure. We'll talk about at some point more in depth, but I always get worried when someone's like, "Oh, I have this gift." Or, "Oh, I'm I heard what I know you've said this because it happens to you teaching class." Well, I prayed and I heard this and therefore it must be true, >> right? >> It's like, dude, do you not are you not aware? That's you. You could say, I was praying and I experienced this. I don't know how to navigate it. >> Yeah. No, that's a humble way of doing it. You know, I had a friend who I work with who's a very holy guy. He used to always tell me, I was in I was in a >> I was in adoration, and this is related to the this apostle I was working. I was in adoration and and I heard this. And and then he stopped doing it because every time he would do it, I would say, "So, you're blaming God for what you're about to propose to me? Is that what you're doing?" And so, he he I made him uncomfortable or whatever. So, he stopped doing it. Then he started to say, "I heard this in adoration, but I'm not saying it's from God." So the other I'll give you another example of this problem, this, you know, misjudging where you are. Uh, and I've talked I don't know if I've talked about it on this show, but I had a guy who came to me and said, "Hey, my spiritual director isn't helping me. Um, would you please help me?" Very well educated, very smart guy. And he said, "I'm in the fifth mansion. I'm reading interior castles. I'm in the fifth mansion. And so I so I start asking the normal questions. Do you practice daily mental prayer? No. Like, okay, whatever. You know, I roll interiorly, >> but not judging. Just going, okay, this is one of those. >> Yeah. >> Um, one of those. >> Yeah. >> And, uh, really good guy, by the way. And but I was just like, okay, flag that. How are you doing in the sacraments? Okay. Uh, and then just started asking, "So, when you have these mystical experiences, how do they affect your family life?" Oh, well, it makes me want to go off alone and pray. >> I'm like, "Ding, ding, ding." So, red flag one, red flag two. Um, I said, "Okay, well, you know, let's start practicing mental prayer. It's fundamental to the interior life." >> And then all hell broke loose, right? and discovered that the guy's fully possessed and the and those beautiful mystical manifestations became the most horrifying things. It's not funny at all. The most horrifying things you could ever The guy was just tormented. >> So yeah, mystical experience can be uh to your point can be um how how would how do you say that? When the devil >> trick of the enemy. >> Yeah. Can be a deception. >> It's very common. Yeah. Yeah. So, and the only reason I say that, and if it isn't clear, >> you just have to well, test all spirits, right? I mean, >> I love St. John of the Cross's method of of u oh, I received this thing. Okay, Lord, take it. >> Yeah. You know, >> God be praised. Moving on. >> Yeah. You know, because that is that is a pure humility and you remove yourself from almost any danger, >> right, >> in attaching to it. You know, I've I've had locations and I've had stuff stuff that I've talked about on the show, but I don't mention it until this is a significant context is huge. >> Yeah. >> Uh like where I'm at spiritually that that will indicate whether or not I talk about it. There's the other reason is I don't necessarily want people to I'm always sensitive of like well I don't want people to think this is normal. Yeah. >> Because it's not. It's not normal for me. Yeah. >> Just because it's happened a few times. >> But then always okay Lord like what did this draw me to? Faith, open love. I don't know. I'm going down a rabbit hole, but hopefully people understand what I'm saying, which is essentially treat it with humility. Don't assume, don't make any assumptions about it because the enemy appears as an angel of light and you know you he will twist your good desire to have well maybe I should stop there because >> I mean what you're saying is exactly right. >> A whole different conversation. We talked about the end of the last show that when we get to this stuff, we'll we'll dive into visions and revelations with Father Gabriel, St. Mary Magdalene, but it's it's important stuff. We you can't say it more than once, right? >> The enemy can the enemy can can confuse. And >> what's the normative pathway? It's not mystical, right, >> revelations and experiences. That's not the normal path. >> It's a it's a beautiful thing when God gives them authentically. The normal path is just the it's just this it's it's you know it's this is what's hard about it all. Like what does it take for you to be a good man? It's really really basic and not very exciting. >> Yeah. >> It's in fact incredibly boring. It's when your alarm close goes off. You get your stinking self out of bed and you pray. >> You're fighting sin aggressively. You live by a rule of life. You you partake in the sacraments. And then you repeat it over again. >> You recognize patterns of sin. You start to isolate those. You you tackle those. The next day, I'm not I'm not I'm being a punk. I need to And you repeat it over again. It's just incredibly boring and and you know so people it's just people are drawn to you know sort of spectacular things. I don't know if it's the media culture we're in or maybe it's always been the case. >> I wonder and again not to go off on another rabbit trail but I think when you look at the example of the saints you have all these amazing experiences that are relayed to us and mystical experiences. >> Yeah. But I I I always think you know well the number of saints how many people are on the planet right now how many billion what is it like I'm not even guess >> but and how many over time compared to how many saints we have >> right >> you know what I mean it's just those are the extraordinary cases >> and if you notice each one of them had different experiences it's not going to be not not every saint had the stigmata not every saint levitated not every so I think if I'm >> if I'm really just trying to give the best outlook on this for everyone who's listening who struggles with this. I could understand why if you were reading the saints and you aspire to be a saint, you would think, "Oh, I should experience these things." >> Well, and I, you know, let's be hon I want I would like the Lord has done many miracles in my life and and particularly the fruits of >> what I've done, but I want a supernatural experience to confirm. >> Sure. you know, at a deeper level. And you know what he tells me? My grace is sufficient for you, which is of course Romans 7, I think. >> My grace is suffic when he said, "Remove this thorn." >> And he's like, "Nope, not doing it." >> Yeah. >> You're already prideful enough. >> Yeah. >> Just would you please get back to work and stop bucking me about it because I got stuff for you to do. There's souls to be saved. >> It's funny. I've I've prayed before where I'm like, "Lord, what I'm going through is so hard and painful. I would much prefer a stigmata." Doesn't even have to be visible. >> And he's going, "Yeah, you never felt it." >> Yeah. >> Because it hurts like hell, it hurts or like heaven, it hurts. >> Yeah. >> So, all right. >> I have no stigma if that wasn't just that clear. >> So, we we need to conclude this episode. I want to conclude it with you know we we we did two pages but the the purgative illuminative and unitive ways are phases um and and you can think of them as purgative pgation illuminative pgation unit pgation and what I've done in the book is broke it broken it up into seven stages if you will that be you know in the purgative way you have the first one is mediocre piety the second is intermittent piety And the third is sustained piety. And there's certain characteristics in each of those to help you understand if you're there or not. The illuminative way you have fervor and relative perfection. The unitive way you have her heroic perfection. And then complete sanctity. You can find all this on page 43 on Devil in the Castle if you didn't know which book we're talking about. And what we're going to do in the next episode is we're going to just dive into these each of these phases and talk through them and just uh uh explore them a bit and help you understand them. So with that, Romans 16:20, the God of peace, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Amen. >> Amen.