Ranking All The Linux Drama with @BrodieRobertson

Hey everybody, welcome to Linux Cast. I'm your host Matt. >> I'm Drew. >> I'm Nate. >> I'm Brody. >> And uh we have a we have a guest, Mr. Brody Robertson. How are you all the way from the land down under? Brody, how are you doing? >> Hello. >> I'm not doing too bad. It's 10 in the morning here. Um yeah. Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. 10 in the time zones are just so screwy. I'm just just saying. It's like it's like I This computer here says it's 2038. Whatever the [ __ ] that means. All right. Uh so well all right. So first off, let's address the elephant in the room. Matt's camera situation is going to mess with his brain for the rest of the year. Okay. So it's in the same the same place, but the chair has moved. I'm looking at the camera, but everybody else is over here. So it's gonna it's going to take me a while to get used to. So, if you're watching the video podcast, it's going to be looking really weird cuz I'm going to be looking like this cuz I'm looking at these guys while I'm talking cuz you're supposed to look at people while they're talking, right? >> Mhm. >> Sure. >> The camera's over here. So, it's going to be a little weird. All right. Uh, so we have we're we're going to rank Linux drama in a tier list today as our main topic. So, we basically what we've done is we've trolled Brody's channel because that's what he does now. He covers Linux drama. He's he is the the drama king, if you will. He is the perpetuator of all drama. And uh we we are going to take news items mostly that he's covered over the course of the last >> well probably a while ago. Some of them are pretty old. Um but >> yeah, there's definitely some ones from a couple years back here, >> but a lot of recent ones, too. and we're going to rank them in a uh in a tier list S to F or whatever whatever it is. And uh Drew, we'll have you when we get there tell what the the different levels mean because I don't have it up in front of me. So, we'll have you do that. But before we do that, we are going to do a little bit of an interview with Mr. Brody and ask him some burning questions. Um these questions are recently created. It has been recently created since the last time he was going to be on the podcast. Uh, so, um, we have questions to ask you. So, Drew, if you'll ask the first question while I mess around with YouTube for a second, please. >> Okay. >> So, Brody, uh, your X bio still says Btier Linux YouTuber. >> Uhhuh. >> Are we getting promoted to A anytime soon? And notice I put myself into the same category. >> So, that actually came from some I don't remember who it was now. There was a guy who was doing a tier list of Linux YouTubers and it was like Brody B tier just above middle of the road. I was like, you know what? I'll take it. That's that's above a passing grade. Why not? I don't know. Someone else make a tier list. Put me in a higher rank. We'll see what happens then. >> Fair enough. You just got an A. >> You want to know what, Drew? We've never actually done a tier list of of Linux YouTubers. >> Oh, wow. Um, >> yeah, let's do that. That sounds like a great idea. >> Yeah. Who can we piss off today? >> Yeah. >> All right, Nate, you have a question for Brody? >> Uh, yes. Mine is always, if money is no object, what piece of hardware would you get? >> Like just PC hardware or anything? It >> It doesn't matter. It could be It could be something that you need for the office. It could just be something that would improve your daily life. It could be PC stuff. It doesn't matter. It could just be a server if you wanted to. >> That's a really tough question. I honestly I've not really thought about it. The only thing that immediately comes to mind, and it's not even that like crazy of an expense. I could finance it right now. I I do want to get a a Honda Civic Type R, which is not that it's not even that crazy expense of a car, but like that's the I don't spend money, so like yeah, that's the best I got for you. He He's rocking all the YouTube money. He, you know, he can afford it. >> Wait a minute. There's YouTube money. Wait, wait, wait. So, that's where it all went. I mean, all right. So, my first question is, where do you actually find the Linux news that you cover? >> So, a lot of it comes from um Reddit there. People, you know, post things r/ Linux, places like that. I will often troll like Feronics and various sites like that, but frankly a lot of it lately people just give me recommendations on the discord. I have a suggestions channel. People usually, you know, the the kind of things I would cover on the channel are usually the kind of things that get sent there anyway. So, you know, it makes sense that people who are in the Discord watch the channel. Yeah, that's it. It's usually a combination of those three. Lately, it's been leaning on the Discord side. Sometimes for the random things like BSD is like Linux and BSD are not like Unix. They are Unix like some of those things just come from I'm working out and I just get a thought in my head. I'm like that's a good idea. Let's just write that down and then I eventually get around to it. >> I I don't know whether or not to I mean Reddit as a news source. >> R/ Linux usually has like a lot of it's garbage but people will post links out to news sites there usually. >> Okay. All right. I I guess I guess that makes you're not so you're not using Reddit as a primary source material just more like a like a link aggregator >> usually. Yeah, it's it's like a filter of things that people are interested in. >> All right, cuz like I' I've spent time on Reddit. I know exactly what's over there. All right, >> Drew, your next question. If you had to recommend a YouTube channel, not a Linux channel, but to Linux people, do you have like a recommendation for the non for the Linux community that's not Linux related? >> Wait, sorry. >> Yeah, maybe I didn't say that. So, you're I'm gonna I'm gonna ask for you to recommend a YouTube channel. >> Yes. >> Not to do with Linux. >> Okay. Oh, >> I'm gonna leave it like that. I think the other part was like way too complicated, but >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I have like three channels I tend to bounce around with. I'm blanking on the name now. Um what was is that the one? Give me >> could be a gaming. >> It has literally nothing to do with Linux if and like tech in general. If you just want like a chill channel, uh go watch Annie Austin. He just does like hyper niche details of random video games. Like here are places in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas. you didn't even know existed. And it's just it's just like a chill vibe basically. >> Okay. I knew it was going to be gaming. Just sort of >> Nate, your second one. >> So mine is every time I talk to an Aussie, they constantly complain about the internet there. Is it really that bad? >> Uh it was until about a decade ago. So it it's very much in places right now. Like where I am, we have fiber, but for a long time, you know, when you guys were getting 50 megabit, we were still barely getting two. In recent years has gotten pretty good. The main problem that we've had is a system known as the NBN, the National Broadband Network, which was a roll out of fiber to every house. And then government changed and they're like, that's expensive. Let's not do that. And they decided, let's say use fiber to nodes and then the existing copper. Then the government changed again. and they're like, "That's stupid. Let's do the original plan." And that happened about three more times. And then eventually we got to where we are now where you can get gigabit if you want to pay for it. It's pretty expensive. Um you're paying like 80 I think $200 Australian something like that for gigabit, but you can get it if you're willing to pay for it in some places. >> What's 180 Australian dollars in real money? >> Well, like 1401 150. >> It's not that it's not that different. Yeah. >> Okay. I I I just asked because I wanted to try to be funny. I'm sorry. Um >> is quite a bit different. It's >> mobile networks can be a bit rough though. Mobile networks definitely are a problem. >> Okay. Do you ever think about Okay, so you are a prolific content creator. You make more content than anybody I know. I mean, and that's not just in the Linux sphere. Literally anybody I know. So, um the question I have is do you ever think about making less Linux or any content uh just period? Do you think about making less? >> There's definitely been parts I have cut. Like I used to stream on the main channel like once a week. I don't do that right now. Um I would like to get I'd like to at least do like a stream a month there. There's definitely been times where I've thought about cutting like the podcast. Um but I don't know. I I I kind of just enjoy it. It's definitely and I used to do seven videos a week on the main channel as well. Then I cut that back down to six. So, there have been little slices off here and there, but also when I cut that off, I then started doing other stuff. So, I don't know. We'll see how long it keeps going for. Right now, I'm 28. I still have plenty of energy. So, we'll see. Uh we'll see where we are 5 years from now. >> That is That is atrociously young. I'm sorry. >> Yeah, it's annoying. >> Like, seriously, man. How are you so so young? You've been YouTubing forever. Crazy. All right, Drew, your last one. Pineapple on pizza is to food. What blank is to litics? >> I'm not really that opposed to pineapple. I'm not going to buy pineapple on pizza, but if someone hands it to me, I >> give me give me give me what's what's on the the the go-to Robertson pizza then. >> Uh I usually go with like barbecue chicken. That's my go-to. >> All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. >> Okay. Um good. Uh Nate, uh if you would please do your last one. >> What is something in Linux you really really wish was different? Sorry, I'm making you think this time. >> Yeah, I really wish that more people would actually engage in the current state that a tech is in. A lot of the opinions of whether it be systemd or whand or I don't know pipe wire or any of this stuff it or KDE for that matter tend to be sort of set like five or so years in the past. A lot of people don't tend to update where they're like where these projects actually are right now and it makes having conversations about them pretty difficult. >> Also, they've been going on for forever. So, you're just rehashing everything >> over and over again. I mean, come on. Yeah. >> Gnome versus KD has been going on since before Brody was born. >> Um, >> uh, wait, when did Wait, sorry. When did Gnome start? >> I think you'll be surprised. It was sometime in the 90s. >> I know. I I don't I think it might be I don't think it was before I was born. Um, >> KD is 1989 96. Gnome 1997. >> Okay. One year before I was born. Okay. Okay. one year. >> I was I wasn't even making it up. >> Official release was 99. So, you know, >> so thereabouts. Um goodness, Lord. Young, you young and all right. So, my last one is there a video that you've made and put out there to the world that you wish that you hadn't made and post it? I asked the same thing to DT as well. So, I ask all the YouTubers. There's definitely some older videos I put out where I did not research them well enough and it I I put out so many video I don't even remember like some of you reference a video I put out like did I did I do that? I don't or or I'll think hey I want to cover this topic. I search my name the topic and it's like four years ago I made a video on that. It's like hm right I honestly I don't know. I I really don't know. It It would definitely have to be one of the one of the older ones I did where I just did not research the topic and I had no idea what I was talking about. >> Did you ever pull one after the fact? Do you go, "Oo man, I should probably take that one down." >> Um, there have been a few that I did pull. Yeah, like a long time ago. Hasn't been a hasn't it's been a while since I've done because of that. Again, nothing's nothing's like I know there I know there are definitely videos. It's just I do not remember what the videos were. >> Dude does four a day, man. He has no >> No, he can't. The funny thing is is he has way more videos than I ever will have and I can't remember all the videos that I've made. And I'm pretty sure that's probably true for you as well, Drew. Right. There's a lot of videos there that you just can't remember that. I was Yeah, I did put out a video today and I was shocked to see that I' I've put out over 130 videos and to me that was just like, "Holy crap, did I really do that?" I mean, because it doesn't seem like that, but whatever. >> Yeah, I have perfect recall, Matt. So, yeah. >> That's impressive for your age, Drew. I'm just >> All right, you guys want to know I'm I'm going to find out how much how many videos Brody actually has because I'm I'm actually curious. >> I've not looked at the number in many years. 2.3 is is what? Now that's just just your main channel. It doesn't count the the gaming channel, the podcast, Brody Robertson React. >> To be fair with the podcast and the gaming channel, those are like clips. >> So it's like 200 podcasts, but then I'll cut >> Tech Overt the podcast. Is that how it is that how you is Tech Overt the podcast or >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Yeah. Um, so you have actually a thousand more than I do. What are you going to say, Nate? Go ahead. >> I was going to ask, do you actually do the clips yourself or do you like run it through an AI type editor or something? >> I have gotten emails about these AI tools. I've never played with one of them. I should at least like give it a shot, but I I've been doing them like myself for the past couple of years. >> So, um, I have used one of the AI the AI tools. I think it's called Vizard. V I Z A R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R A R D or something like that. >> Um horrendously expensive for what you get and uh only really worth it if you actually make money on YouTube shorts or TikTok or whatever. >> Um if you don't and not worth it. I mean it saves you a lot of time but honestly Da Vinci Resolve is it's so easy just to make them yourself. >> All right. Okay. So we are moving on to the Matt looking at the camera. Good lord. Um it's not going to be work. It's not going to work. All right. Uh we are moving on to the main topic which is the Linux drama tier list. So I'm going to share with you guys the tier list that we made and you the the my co-hosts here have it in uh text form which is you know I'm sure it looks amazing but I was having sharing Windows problems but everybody else is going to get to actually see the thing. So this is that and I'll actually make this full screen so you guys can actually see it a little bit better. So, basically what we've done, like I said at the beginning, is we have trolled through Brody's channel for the most part and uh literally taken his thumbnails from his channel to rank them. Now, we're not ranking the videos. We want to make sure we want to make sure this actually clear. We're not tier ranking Rod's videos because those of course would be all be S tier. I I mean, obviously, um >> as we established earlier, Btier. Btier is where I'm at. >> Okay. Um, well, I mean, if we were going to do a true ranking of videos, we'd have to put all of our videos like in a pool and then it would just it would not be fair. Anyways, we are ranking the actual drama behind the video. So what my plan here is and you guys can kind of we'll we'll you know as far as I can say to have had a plan is to go through these one at a time and we will discuss the actual drama and then we will rank them individually and then try to come to a consensus on to where to put it. So but before we start uh Drew if you would please tell us what the tiers actually mean please. So if you're looking at S tier, that's something that has changed Linux forever. Uh if you're looking at A, it's something that genuinely mattered. B would be mattered to some people. Uh C would be like storm in a teacup, you know, and D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D would be barely news and F would be an absolute nothing burger. Okay. >> So, we're we're going to just kind of like throw things in and see how on the scale of drama they these uh these topics would be. >> Let's uh pretend that there's actually, you know, a D tier here. Um >> Oh, sorry. Yeah. >> No, no, it's fine. What what I will do is um >> There you go. Oh, there's two S's now. >> Yeah, we'll just just ignore the SS tier. Okay. First off, not the greatest abbreviation, guys. I'm just I'm just sad. Okay. Um let's go ahead and get started with age verification. We'll we'll start off with a big one. >> Uh age verification has obviously been a big topic in the news over the last 6 months or so. So obviously I think everybody in the chat, you know, knows what this is all about. So we've had kind of two directions where this is kind of the conversation has gone. had the age verification in Linux happening and age verification happening on the internet in general like Discord and websites and what have you, right? So, uh my question for you guys is first off, what are your general thoughts on Age of Verification and the drama surrounding it specifically and where would you rank it? So, we will actually let you go first Mr. Brody. So, I'm in Australia and Australia has been one of the countries at the forefront of pushing this. We recently uh it was announced that I think Microsoft Yeah, I think Microsoft is now doing some stuff with um with Xbox. There's been a lot of We've always had problems with age verification in Australia anyway. We've ever since we've had things that could be age rated, there have been things that were banned which were not banned in the US. You know, we it it's like over time we've had plenty of video games banned and this is sort of an extension of that. Australia loves to ban things. Now, I think there is definitely two very different things to look at here. I think the Linux side of this like the whole age verification and systemd I think a lot of that at least right now has been quite overblown because with Linux at the end of at the end of the day you can just remove it you don't have to use it where I think there is a serious legitimate problem is on the like service side on the website side where there are sites where you legitimately have to give them your ID or you're not going to be interact able to interact with them. Some things you can get around with a VPN, but there's areas where that's just not viable. And I think this is going to create like a a golden age of like identity theft where websites can just impersonate or even just claim that they need your ID and then use that as a vector just to steal it. >> Yeah, that's pretty much my stance. >> Where would you rank it on the ESTA F tier list? >> Are we talking about the Linux side of things or just in general? Let's go ahead and go with the Linux side of things. >> I think right now I would put it around I'd put it around B, but with how much is on the website side, I think it kind of does deserve to go in the S S tier. >> Okay. Uh Nate, what about you? What are your thoughts on age verification and where would you rank it? It really So there's like two different arguments here in the US of age verification. It really depends on which one it is. If it's just that, oh here you put your age in, move on. I don't think that's so bad. Like I mean Steam already does it. It's already kind of there. My problem is is the ones like in Texas where they're actually wanting ID for your verification. And if that's the level we're talking about at then it would be an S tier because that's absolutely terrible. There's no reason for our IDs to actually be on the internet for some verification. Uh Drew, what about you? >> Yeah, this is one that has to be written in pencil. You know there we're not because it's a fluid situation. you know, you're going to put it I'm going to put it in the A in pencil and then a week from now it could be in the S tier because what I think we're we're seeing right now is it genuinely matters. Let's not underell it a little bit. Okay, it genuinely matters, but it is still moving. And this is one topic that could tear change between recording today and when this video comes out on Saturday. And it's it it could very easily be an S. um in a week's time. And again, it it all depends on where you're talking about how it's being framed and what where it applies. I I definitely think that there is some scary legislation uh that needs to be addressed. And I think that uh and I think we've talked about this in the past. I don't think that the Linux Foundation has been a very good advocate uh in any way, shape, or form. Is it their role? We could debate that, but as of right now, I'm going to put it in a in the A tier in pencil. Okay. So, for me personally, my biggest problem with age verification is about 75% what Nate said, the ID thing, because I mean, that's just stupid. I mean when when you can't go a day without seeing data, you know, being breached off from every server and getting your name, social security number, you know, date of birth, you know, blood type and everything just stolen away from you, giving more information out onto just random websites like Discord because I'm, you know, when I think of the the the paragon of data security, I think Discord, you know, I mean, >> they did have ID leak like 3 weeks after the UK introduced it. >> Yeah. Literally, you knew that was going to happen. Everybody knows it's going to happen. And if you can't trust I mean Discord is a is a multi-million dollar corporation. They have a lot of money and and uh you know venture capital money going for them, right? If if they can't do it, what's random, you know, website, you know, with no money behind it, who actually has to collect that ID, you know, going to be able to actually protect it, right? They're not going to be able to because nobody can. I mean, no, there's there's no internet security. So there part of my problem with vag verification is that obviously the other part of it has to do with the reasons why because when you talk about this thing like like the idea behind it like like like al like Nate said the idea behind wanting to protect children I think we can all get behind that. You know everybody wants you know kids to be safe online. Everybody wants I mean every one of us has been around you know a fairly long time enough on the internet to see some really [ __ ] up things on the internet. We all have. Everybody stumbles upon something that you just really didn't want to see on Mastadon in the federated stream. You didn't want to see it. Okay. It just happens, right? >> So the idea of protecting kids from that makes a lot of sense. But that's not actually why we're doing and we everybody knows that it's being sponsored by Mark Zuckerberg and Meta at least here in the United States because they want to offshoot some of the responsibility and legal responsibility that they've faced in the past over having to serve content to minors and being able to say, you know what, not our problem. You know what I mean? They lied on their their age verification thing. It's it's their responsibility, right? and and it wouldn't be such a bad idea if it weren't so disingenuous of the reasons why. It's not actually about protecting kids. It's about other, you know, well, it's about money is what it is. It's always >> a liability dodge. Let's be honest. It's a liability dodge. >> It's always about money. Like always, always about money and we all know it. That's the problem. Also, the laws being written by people who don't understand the technology as laws usually are. if if they actually unders I mean if they actually understood the technology maybe it'd be actually be more scary because you know they'd have they they'd implement uh things that actually would you know work but everybody knows I mean kids are the the the you know they're squirrely they can they'll get past this [ __ ] like what was it like 5 seconds after the UK went went into effect people were you know held up pictures of other people or whatever to get past it I mean it took them 5 People using games like Death Stranding and it has like a photorealistic version of Norman Reedus in it and it has a photo mode so just use Norman Reedus' face. He's over 18. >> Yeah. So, so like they're just going it it's not going to work. It's just going to make the internet worse is my So I would I my problem with ranking is what Drew has is like I'm not sure exactly where this is going to end up to be because chances are whatever's going to happen is going to happen and like 5 seconds after that most of us are going to be like Yeah, that happened. And then move on. Uh the question is how much does it actually affect your day-to-day? For a lot of people, it's not you're just going to not pay attention. So, I'm going to I'm going to say A as well. So, um we have two S's, I believe, and two A's. That's like we're split 50/50. Where do we want to place this one? Um Drew, you want to be the deciding factor on this? >> Um so, yeah. I mean, okay, let's put it an S because what what could possibly happen is that it becomes more and more uh relevant uh and more scary. So, let's let's put it up there. >> Okay, let's go. >> If anything deserves it, like I think that deserves it. >> Yeah, I mean there's other things that I think are going to fall into the S category, but uh but this one's a is a biggie. >> Yeah, it was definitely one of the biggest ones. All right, so let's go ahead and move on to AI slop bug reports. So, uh, this one basically is self-explanatory. The the video and the the article that we we have linked to it in the show notes, uh, basically are is talking about how developers are very, uh, disinterested in accepting blatantly AI generated bug reports and poll requests. And uh this is I mean you can't talk to a developer nowadays without this topic coming up because they're just inundated with random people who discovered Claude and said, "Hey, I can fix this bug now." And pushing it up there without following any of the the collaboration or contribution guidelines at all. And it just kind of has led to places like Codeberg saying, "Hey, you want to know what? Yeah, the AI stuff, no thank you. we we'll just bypass that because we can't handle that kind of traffic. So the Drew, did we read somewhere like the the amount of traffic on GitLab or co GitHub or one of the one of the git places has went up like a thousand times or some crazy nonsense in one of our news articles last week, right? >> Even even GitHub has scaling issues and that's that's crazy to me. So are you are you are you going ahead and tearing this up, Matt, or >> Yeah, it's it's going to be AI bug report. So, I've actually done the age verification. We moved on to the AI slop bug reports. All right. So, >> uh we will again start with Brody. Where do you think the AI slop bug reports ranks on the thing and your general opinion on it? >> So, I think that video specifically and what you're referring to, I think it's from like about a year ago. Do you have the date for that? Cuz things have really changed in the last 6 months. go ahead and and give and have an updated uh you know you got >> um so I just did a video about this today actually with the Linux kernel um around about 3 to six months ago we've gone from these LLMs producing effectively noise to now getting to a point where they are legitimately good security analysis tools. is still generating nonsense, but the rate of nonsense to actual real problems has completely shifted at this point. And this has created a situation where projects like the Linux kernel are not just being inundated with sloth anymore, but inundated with actual legitimate security issues. And that is a much much bigger problem because, you know, it's it's annoying when they're just generating nonsense and it's wasting maintainer time. But when they are generating actual real security problems, now you're finding like actual exploits in a system. Now you're finding just regular people who are producing hundreds of different problems which for certain systems might have something like the kernel. If you're something like a networking driver, something else where security is really important like malicious actors are using this. There was a story in Australia from just the other day where somebody sent the AI agent out to just go and book them a gym appointment. Like totally normal thing. And the agent was like, "Ah, the gym is fully booked. I'm going to find an exploit to kick someone off the queue and uh insert you into the queue instead." >> Wow. >> And that like it actually did that. It it got him onto the queue. So like we are actually seeing these tools having a serious security impact now. It's somewhere around like when Fable and um stuff like that started coming out. So, I don't see this slowing down. Like I only see these tools getting more and more powerful and that ratio going even more towards the side of like just you know the idea of a script kitty, right? script kitties now have access to a like a relatively competent junior developer who if you feed it money and compute will just work 24/7 trying to break a system. So I don't know. I think I think we're starting to actually see this move up the ranks like maybe low S, maybe a rank. >> Nate, what about you? Well, so if this was probably last year, I would have had a very negative outlook on AI in general, like I I would have been completely against it 100%. But with the way that things are starting to develop as far as actually finding issues in the code, it does change my opinion a little bit. I still hate AI, but I'd give a solid A. That's the way I would set it just because I do think it is making changes but at the same time I still think there's so much slop in it that there there's not a good balance. Let me put it that way. There's not a good balance. Like it's either really good or it's just absolutely left field completely terrible. So I'd say A's pretty solid. >> There are certainly fields where it is garbage. Like if you want if you want people who are going to openly tell you it's garbage, go look at the uh go look at people that really enjoy knitting. They will tell you how it just produces absolutely nonsense stitching. >> Okay, I'm we're going to have to pause here for just a second. Exactly. How much time Brody Robertson do you spend in the into the knitting community? I'm just I'm I'm We have to know this. >> I I hang out in many places on the internet. I hear many things. He's a man of the people at this. >> Of all the communities that for Brody Robertson to be, you know, in the knitting community was not the one that I saw coming. I I am surprised. All right, Drew. Next next we'll learn that he actually like he's going to start crocheting, you know? Is that the next is that the next Brody Robertson channel? The the >> we'll say >> the crochet corner. I'm sorry, Drew. Go ahead. >> I agree. I think that there's a timing aspect to this one in particular because it's like we and if you said this a year ago, you say we built a machine that produces an infinite plausible sounding bug report, you know, and it we aimed it at volunteers whose resources are their scarcest resource is their attention. And a fake bug report is worse than a no bug report. It costs a maintainer an hour to disprove and cost the sender nothing. So it's basically a denial of service attack on human patients with and so and but I agree in that uh models like Fable 5 have greatly improved this kind of like or lessened I should say the fake bug report and put more emphasis on what is an actual uh issue. So, I I'm I'm going to give it I mean I don't want to be I'm going to actually be a little bit contrary here. I'm going to say it's a B. Um in that it it has it it did have real damage to real maintainers. It's getting better and I think it's only missing a because the wider world hasn't really felt it yet. But I think this is a grower in in that regard. >> I think the ranking also depends on what you're waiting. Are you waiting the amount it's producing? Because the amount it's producing is only going up. >> Yeah. No, that's fair. Um, and so yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm going to stick to my gun here. It's a B at this point. And maybe it should be an A, right? Because it's like a bigger deal. I don't know. I'm going to stick with B. >> Okay. So, for me personally, I think that what this Okay, so my I can go real quick. My general thoughts on it is that it will lead to a capture war because eventually what the way you solve this is pro is trying to prove exactly what's coming from someone who knows what they're talking about and someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Right? So what we're going to end up having is something that comes along probably created by AI that will try to test a submitter's ability to know what they're submitting. Whether that happens, you know, like they have to take a quiz or something. I I don't know what it'll be. I'm not anywhere near smarter to figure it out, but that's what will happen because it's the only thing poss you can there there's only two things that you can do. You can either keep it where it is now, which is just a flood of everything, or you can turn the spot off and say there's nothing. And that's not good either, right? You have to find a middle ground. And the middle ground is trying to figure out an automated way of sorting the good stuff from the bad. And some of that's going to be, like I said, I think a capture. It's not going to be actual capta, but something like that. Some kind of verification that the person who's submitting it knows what they're talking about. And there's gonna a lot of the I think a lot of the people who are complaining about this uh are vehemently against AI, but the the solution for a lot of this stuff is going to be AI tools to go through some of this stuff and sort through it and then eventually pass it on to humans. Uh and it's going to it's going to lead to a ton of problems. We all know that it's going to because AI does follow ghosts a lot still even with the the improved models. But I think I mean no human can go through that many. So it's going to have to be a machine and automated tooling that does it. Uh it's just unfortunately it's not there yet. Um and a lot of people who are complaining about this the the most vocally aren't into the AI stuff or LLM stuff at all. So uh personally I'm with with Drew. I would say that this is more of an A than an S tier. Oh, you said B, right? Sorry. I'm also going to say A. I think that's where it is right now. Uh mostly because it is it is causing a real problem. >> Uh I'm just not sure uh that it's you know >> where it is right now. So uh I think we can do a consensus of a there. Yeah. >> Yep. >> All right. All right. So that's a let's go ahead and move uh to Brody's favorite dro. The arch. The arch. >> Uh AUR malware. This thing. This has been popping up for weeks. I mean, just over and over again, months maybe even. Uh, so, uh, Brody, your general opinion, because this actually affects you because you are on Arch and I believe none of the rest of us actually are. U, >> he's on Arch by the way. >> Yeah, by the way. Yeah. So, uh, your general opinion on the AUR Yeah. >> malware. And, uh, where would you rank it? >> So, it obviously only matters to Arch Linux users. So this already puts it at least B or lower like just flat out regardless of anything else that's happening B or lower. Um this is something which is actually still evolving. So just today actually the AUR team released a update for the AUR web. Um I'll see if I can find exactly what it is. Give me one second. Here it is. Here it is. So they have decided to reenable uh pushing to the repo. Registrations are still closed. But now if you want to adopt a package there is a so firstly a package maintainer must grant that and if nobody grants the request it will be automatically rejected after 14 days. Also I believe there are changes with an account if it is verified or unverified. So they have already mostly addressed the problem here. The main issue that existed was people could adopt an AUR package with no verification process whatsoever. They could just spin up a new account, immediately take it over and that's what happened. People took over a thousand different packages. The issue with those packages though is most of those were packages which were entirely abandoned. So the the likelihood of anyone actually using most of them was pretty low. I believe there was maybe with like the initial malware according to the npm numbers like a couple hundred downloads right overall it was like a big like amount of noise happening is a lot of packages but the actual result of it I don't really think outside of just bothering people annoying the AU maintainers wasting a bunch of time has ultimately been that great of an impact Okay. So, where would you rank it? >> What was like what was Ctier? >> True. >> Ctier is Storm in a Teacup. >> I would say either CO or D. >> Okay. Uh Nate, your thoughts and where we drink it. >> I mean, it's Arc, so it's a D tier. I mean, >> we're not breaking the Dro, Nate. >> Oh, my bad. My bad. No, I I I do kind of agree that it it really a lot of people make it bigger than what it actually is. And yes, it needs it's a issue that needed to be addressed. They should have addressed it years ago. But at the same time, it didn't really affect anybody very much. I like I mean I use Cashios. It never really affected me at all. And I have some things from the AUR, but once again, my stuff comes from things that are kind of verified. But yeah, I'm just going to put it as a D because I think people really blew it way out of proportion. >> Okay. >> Than what it actually is. >> All right, Drew. Yeah, I'm going to give it a C. Like I think Brody said you said C, right? Yeah. I'm going to give it a C. >> AU. The AUR is like the Linux farmers market. Okay. You don't know where any of that [ __ ] is. You you go in there with like the best intention. you you you might have a dollar and you can get like some candy from some some lady that's just like here's some candy you know whatever uh and it's wonderful it's community run nobody has inspected anything okay but every arts user knows that uh you need to read that pkg build and uh and nobody does you know so the fact is you know it's it's a C uh but the one thing that I think my takeaway is the malware on actual machines dense the Linux doesn't get mal malware smuggness. You know, there's that smuggness. Oh, yeah. We're we're free. You know, we got it all taken care of. We don't No, not really. Not really. Okay. So, you get what you deserve. See? Okay. So, the problem with this is that it happened multiple times. If this was just a one-off, nobody care. I mean, literally, I mean, we would have heard about it on Brody's channel and um then we would have forgotten about it, you know, a few days later. Not not the video, but the the drama, you know what I mean? The >> But it just keeps happening, right? It's it's kind of like Codeberg in a way. Like we talked about Codberg and and being down a couple weeks ago, or maybe it was last week. It's just down. If that was just like, you know, every so often, once every few months, nobody would care. But it happens all the time over and over again. And and it just it feels like to me, and granted I only get my news from the Arch guys, so maybe I just have too many Arch Linux friends. Um, but it just feels like this has happened quite a lot. Um, and I think that that's the reason. But also on the flip side and and uh just know this Brody that I mean this with full offense. The the Arch Linux guys are a little bit how shall you say over dramatic. >> They uh they they tend to make I mean they had a you probably remember this a big fight about um the upstream version of Grub a couple years ago, right? It was like >> Oh yeah, that was fun. >> Right. like like so they were literally I mean if they were in the same room there would have been fisticuffs you know so they they tend they tend to blow things out of the portion so I'm also going to go with with uh C here just because it did matter because it happened over and over again but for the most part it it also wasn't oh my god the world was on fire because you know it's just you know whatever. So uh are we agreeing on C here I think. All right good. All right, let's Where's my Where's my cursor? All right, there we go. All right, next one. Oh, we got we got one of Brody's favorites here. Bcash FS and all of its drama. What we should have done is actually count how many videos Brody has made on Bcash FS. >> I think it's at least three. >> It's a lot. >> It's definitely at least three. >> It's definitely more. >> The only reason I actually know what Bcash F is Bash FS is is because of Brody's. So, Brody, what are your thoughts on the Bcash FS thing and where would you rank it? >> Well, basically the only people that actually care about Bcash FS are me, Michael Larabel of Feronics and the creator of Bcash FS. Like it it was funny, right? Like I I enjoyed I I enjoyed watching him like go back and forth with Torva constantly ignoring Colonel Rules. It was it was amusing at the same time though. It like it literally doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. Like yes, there are some people out there that use Bcash Fest. I get it. They were not happy about it being pulled from the kernel at the same time though, right? Like no distros are shipping it. Like maybe it's an maybe it's an option like you know it's an option in one of the tools but no dros are offering it as like an option in like a fedora or auntu something like that they're doing like ext4 butterf things like that I honestly like fd like I I don't have much else to say about it. >> Okay. Uh Nate thoughts on this? >> I literally don't really care. >> Okay. So we know where you're ranking it. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So it's an F. >> All right Drew. >> I I I don't care. I mean, it's just I'm just saying it it it there. I mean, there's literally nothing about it that I really care. I mean, if I'm going to use something XF T4 is good enough. Just saying. >> Yeah. The blast radius on this is fairly small, you know what I mean? So, when you you know, there it was amusing, especially the way Brody framed it in some of these videos and stuff like that. It really matters to file system nerds. And it's I guess it's a D. It's a D. And yeah, it's a D. >> Okay. So, I I missed my my opportunity to ask you, Drew, as a DRO maintainer, are you going to ship be cash on on your DRO? But, uh, that's >> I think you know the answer. >> Hey, you want to know what? Maybe this is just extra butter. I don't know. All right. >> Wow. See, I didn't I I am My hands are clean on this. You You You just trolled yourself. >> I know. It's horrible. This is what I get from hanging out with you guys. Anyways, uh I'm going with F in this cuz literally nobody cared. The only reason I cared was because the the Colonel Mailing list was entertaining and I only knew about that because Brody told me to go look at it. I do find what is his name? Ken Over Street. Is that is >> I find him very entertaining. He's like the guy who does um app app images. He's also he's also very very very um opinionated on how things are supposed to go. And uh whenever he pops up, you just know things are about to get good. Get your popcorn out. It's going to be fun. Uh but anyways, I think we can mostly agree that this is an F tier. All right, we can start picking up on because we don't think we have a lot of Oh, we have some big ones coming up. So, I can't say we don't have any big ones, but we have some small ones here that we can go through. So, uh, Bit Warden drama. This is basically them removing one line on their website. Um, basically >> Oh, I didn't even know what this was. >> Yes. So, all right. So, >> what did they what did they remove? >> They they So, they they had a a commitment in their like bio or whatever that their their promotion material where they said that we're committed to being open source. They removed it. Everybody freaked out for 35 seconds and then uh they put it back. your your thoughts on the the bit warden drama, bro. >> I didn't even know this happened. >> You made a video about this. >> No, I didn't. >> No, you might not have made a a video. I don't Is it? >> No, I made a video on something else about Beard. I didn't make this. >> Wait, hold on a second. Am I Am I messing this up, Drew? >> Don't know. >> I don't know what that video is. I >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, I'm going to assume that I did mess up cuz >> Oh, that was about how I think it was about how their licensing model works. And this like this was uh from like a couple of years ago. >> Okay. I don't think it was. >> Yeah. It's okay. We can move on. >> All right. So, the drama was so we've got a lot of drama to keep. >> The drama was so good. Nobody knows what the drama was about. Okay. All right. Let's go ahead and move on to >> I I look up bitward movies committed to open source. I find a Reddit post. That is all. I don't find any like news sites talking about it. >> Okay. >> So, it's an SS tier. Let's go ahead and move on then to we'll just bypass this one and talk about CentOS is dead. Red Red Hat cancelling CentOS and moving to CentOS stream. Uh Brody, your general thoughts on this and where would you rank it? >> CentOS is like never really mattered to the average user like this is this is very much a corporate thing and in the place of CentOS Rocky Linux and Alma Linux sort of like stepped up to just do basically the exact same thing. So ultimately anyone who needed unbranded rail, they have unbranded rail still really matter to be honest and send to a stream frankly is fine anyway. F >> F tier. >> Okay, >> maybe someone cared. >> The funny thing is is it made a lot of people very angry who had no skin in the game, right? Uh Nate. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Your your thoughts on this? >> I I love you, Drew. I really do. You're a good friend, but it's just another Dro. >> I'm sorry. So, it's an F tier for me. I mean, dros come and go. They die all the time. So, >> Oh, damn. >> And so, >> all right. >> All right. >> That's why I said that's why I had just funny [ __ ] >> Oh, man. That that that made me giggle just more than a little bit. All right, Drew. I actually Nate, you said F tier. I'm sorry. I was too busy. Yeah. F2. >> All right. >> So, yeah. Okay. So, I think we have to make a distinction here because you're talking about enterprise Linux here. Okay. And it doesn't affect us as desktop users at all really. Okay. But as far as enterprise is concerned, it's an a um it actually restructured new distros, new alliances, and a permanent distrust or uh trust discount on what Red Hat promises. It's it's never been noticed by the desktop community. Not at all. Okay. But it does have a lot of effect on um on uh Oracle and Suz and uh CIQ and um and so basically I'm trying to like if I had to say something for the enterprise Linux, yeah, it's an A. I know it doesn't mean [ __ ] for desktop for desktop users. I just I know >> we can split down the middle. Go B. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm okay with that. I have literally nothing. Go, Nate. >> I was going to say I'm still either if but okay. >> Okay. >> For for us, you're right, Nate. 100%. It doesn't matter. And it's not because of dro dying every day. Just horrible man. But it has it has it has more to do with the fact that nobody on the desktop side of things actually uses CentOS. And and yes, Mr. One person in the chat who uses CentOS, I understand you exist. the rest of you don't care. >> It was at one point the recommended dro for Da Vinci. >> I actually I'm pretty sure that if you go on their website, it still says that. Um but but also Steam Linux now. >> Steam still said yeah, you're probably right. Um Steam still says Auntu is the only one they support. So um they just don't update those pages. Uh so uh send where we're going to we what do we say? B C >> B is fine. >> All right. Okay. Let's let's uh go to I'm going to be skipping around here a little bit so we can kick up some of the ones that were big. So we're going to do uh let's do Xorg fought the law and the law one is the way that I put this and I so the whole Exorg versus Wayand drama that has been going on for well I was going to say almost as long as Brody's been alive but it's not that's not quite true this time for a long long time. So your general your last time you were on we actually did a whole episode on whining so we don't have to you know get into a lot of it but your general thoughts on the the level of drama that this espoused and its effect on Linux and where would you rank it? I think ultimately if people really care about X11 still, you're going to have projects and there are projects that have popped up that have continued that support. At this point, going by all the numbers I've seen, my own numbers, numbers from Plasma, numbers from Arch Linux package installs, every single number I've seen indicates that most people, somewhere around like 75 to 80% at this point are on Wayland. Now that 20% doesn't it's not like it doesn't matter but at the end of the day no one is taking that code away. It's not like anyone's suggesting just remove it from existence and nothing can be done at the end of the day right on Linux you if something is not being packaged by your DRO you can package it yourself and a lot of these projects do have third party packaging now some of the desktops like this are now getting some level of support there are new forks of desktops so I think ultimately like yeah it definitely matters for the people who it really matters for but I think for most people like the transition has been relatively transparent outside of like very specific applications they need. Now, that wasn't the case 5 years ago, but in the last I would say even 3 years, it's been it's been fine. Pretty much ever since Nvidia stuff's been dealt with, it's been mostly fine. >> So, where would you rank it? >> I'd say C. >> C maybe. >> Okay. Nate. Okay. C. Okay. D. Uh Nate, >> if I based it off of like the outrage that was in Discord, it would definitely be an SS. Just being honest, just because the whole Whin and X11 argument. But for me personally, it's it's kind of like it's almost kind of like, you know, passing on the torch to something else type thing. And so it's slowly going out. There's still like there's still forks of it and stuff that are being developed right now, but it's kind of being phased out. Everybody's moving to Whan. So, for me, I could agree with the C, but I kind of lean towards more like a D because it really just doesn't matter now in my personal opinion. >> Okay, Drew. You know, it's funny because when I read the the the titles is Whan killed Exorg and got away with it. And it's it has to be one of those things where it's like it's the only murder that I can think of where the victim died of natural causes and the suspect still gets blamed. And the resistance movement uh the the rallying cry is defending a code base that even its developers uh treat it like they need to have hazmat suits on or something like that. You know, it's an A tier for me. the display server uh actually changed for basically everyone except me. So, uh it's not S tier. Uh I am rating my own eviction at some point, I guess. Uh but it is an A. The tier for the drama matters to fewer and fewer people. >> I think that this is one where it depends on when you ask the question. So, so the f very first time that I was on Brody's podcast, we talked about Wayland and I was vehemently against it. We talked for almost two hours, I think, about how horrible Wayland was and his experiences that that I had on just trying to get content creation up and running. Um, screen capturing to work, audio to work, um, global key bindings, portals being >> Okay, that one's still a problem. >> Yeah, it's Yeah. Yeah, but so if you you' asked me back then, it was a big [ __ ] deal, man. I I mean, goodness gracious, the computer just didn't work. Okay, if you use Wayland, half of this half of the stuff just didn't work. I mean, it it was like and and even at that time, and that that was like four or five years ago, there were dro saying we're switching to Whand, including like Auntu is like, you know, we're this was like 2017, we're switching to Wayland. No, it's not a good idea. And they they they figured that out eventually. And you know, but now we're switching and everybody's like, "Eh, nothing burger." You know, it it matters nothing cuz nobody's going to notice unless you're running like a a a 1080 or something like that. And even then, it's gotten better. It's not It's not great, but it's better than it was. And yeah, uh accessibility is [ __ ] on Wayland. It's just so bad. Hopefully they fix that, but it's going to take them another 10 years probably. So that that's a that's a downside of using something new. the accessibility stuff kind of bypass, you know, just goes by the wayside until they get the actual stability stuff ironed out. So, if if you if you are someone who is uh blind um or or you have hard time seeing or any of that kind of stuff and you need accessibility tools to actually use your computer, you're going to be stuck on Wayland for a good long time. Um >> X11, you mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. And on X11. Yeah. You're going to be on Xorg. Yep. Uh that's what I meant. But you But for the general everyday folk, it works. And unless your name is Vax, in which case you got to rewrite things over and over again, but we'll talk about that later. Um, anyway, so I would rank this as a uh as a D tier. Um, so uh do we want to compromise as a C or because Drew was kind of high at an A. >> No, I don't care. You guys can do it. You guys can >> All right. >> That sounds good to me. >> All right. C or B, depending where you want to put it. >> All right. We'll just do that. All right. Let's go. Let's move Let's Let's Since we've since I mentioned vexry, let's burn through that one real quick. Uh the Vtory rewrites Whent. Um this one was him when he was fighting with the free desktop organization and uh decided that WL roots was not in fact the thing that he wanted to do and all of the things that he's rewritten since then uh to to get away from free desktop and anything like that. So uh Rodie the level of impact that this has had and where where would you rank it? I think back then definitely it was kind of a nothing burger like yes it it was fun to watch it happen. However, what has happened over the past couple of years is Hyperland now is the most popular uh Whand desktop outside of like Gnome and KDA. This has created a very interesting situation because now you have one of the pillars of Whand who is not involved in the Whan discussions who can kind of just you know push things in directions that he feels like pushing them. And what's ended up happening here is there is kind of like this I guess secondary standard outside of the free desktop and it's created this this like I guess subversion of whand and this is a very developing thing but we're now seeing protocols being adopted in projects like hyperland in random other applications and they're not going through free desktop. This just happened like a couple of weeks ago. So, I think over time this actually does have the possibility of turning into like a pretty big thing. I would right now put it around B, but moving towards A, especially if we do start seeing a more of an ecosystem developing outside the control of free desk. >> Okay. Uh, Nate, >> this is this No, this is part of the Hypopperland stuff, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm I am going to leave this one to y'all because I literally refuse to run Hyperland. So, that's when I'm actually going to back out. >> Okay. Uh, Drew. >> Yeah. I'm not a fan. But at the same time, I I think if I had to rank this one though, I'm going to put it at a D. And the reason why is because I think it's barely news outside of a ve a very small niche. And you know to to Brody's point, you know, you've got KDE, you've got Gnome, and then and now you've got Cosmic all kind of like operating in like I think a bigger space uh than what Hyperland has. I think it's interesting. I mean, we could talk about, you know, PewDiePie at some point if we really wanted to, but you know, the the cool factor of uh of Hyperland is significant. It's significant. I think that that's a something that um you know, it's something that needs to be appreciated for one. And so, uh but again, niche, very niche, and I'm gonna give it a D. Mhm. >> Okay. I think Vax likes to create problems for himself and um likes a little bit of a control freak. Don't know the fellow at all, but that's just the impression that I get. But I also think that um he likes breaking stuff a lot on a and for something that is so popular, he breaks stuff an awful lot. Uh so uh that's the reason why I can't use Hyperland because [ __ ] breaks way too often. But for the most part, I don't it'll I I didn't consider what you said, Brody, to be a fact that it would have influence on other things. Uh and specifically, you know, the standard free desktop stuff and and but but um we'll see how I think that's more of like a we'll see than actually how it how it happened or you know what what happened when it when it went down. Um so I I will also rank this a a D. So do we want to compromise on a C tier? >> Sure. Okay. All right. So here's what we're going to do. Where is my cursor? I got I I got to start using KDE so I can shake my cursor a little bit more. Actually make it bigger. All right. All right. So, here's So, we have a few more left to go. So, we're going to do is lightning round here real quick. Uh because uh I can't see Nate in his camera, but I'm pretty sure he's glaring at me and and saying, "What the how the hell am I going to edit a two-hour podcast?" I'll just pick a few of the like better ones and then let's just uh >> what I figure we do is we'll try to get through them but we'll we will limit discussion to one or two sentences for each if if you have a lot to say. >> I mean feel free to say it but you know none of these are going to be like I think out out there. So we we will just kind of uh just give me a sentence or two on what you thought and uh where you'd rank it. So, Brody, uh, snap packages and the debate on whether or not you should use snaps. Yes or no? >> They're still very slow. I don't like them. Filling up my LSBLK. I don't use them. I don't like snaps. >> Well, where would you rank the drama though, Mike? >> Um, no one else besides Auntu uses them. Like, it just don't use Abuntu. I D. >> Okay. Uh, Nate, where would you rank the the snaps controversy? I'm going to go in the opposite direction. I too do not like Snaps, but I still think it's actually S tier because so many people love to hate Snaps. So, >> that's fair. That's actually fair, Drew. Yeah, it mattered enough that uh Mint severed their relationship with with Yubuntu and even at the point where they I don't even know if they're planning going in that direction where they just do LMDE, but u I'm just curious if that's even going to be a possibility. Anyway, I give it a B, Matt. Okay, I will also give it a B because I do think that it mattered. But the in the grand scheme of things, uh, all that this has meant for me is that flat packs has been a major disappointment because flat packs won and then nobody actually develops them anymore. So, um, sad face for, uh, packages, just use the AUR. It has no problems whatsoever. Uh, okay. So, we're we will go with a B there. I'm I'm just going to do some snap judgments on trying to average these things out so we can kind of go. So, uh, System D is bloated. Uh, in case you didn't know, uh, the System Drama, Brody, what are your thoughts on that quickly? And your, uh, ranking, >> uh, which one? The the big one. Yes. Yes. It was a big deal like I don't know, 15 years ago when DROS was swapping, whatever it was. Since then, like everyone's kind of just accepted it. Like, yes, it it was a really big deal. system administrators had to learn a lot. But at the end of the day, now it doesn't matter. I would say I I'll give it an A because it did have like a really big impact, but it ultimately like it just resulted in better systems. >> Yeah, Nate. >> Yeah, I'm going to go the opposite way again. I'm going to go down to F because what? It's bloated, but your system works like anyways. So, I'm just going to give it an F. It It did not matter. people once again just bled way too much. >> Okay, Drew. >> Yeah, I'm going the exact opposite way from Nate then because I think it's an S tier. It redefine the plumbing of every major system on Earth and it set the templates for every architecture going forward. It it basically by definition it changed Linux forever. >> But did the Okay, question for you. >> It might be ugly. It might be ugly. I know we're supposed to be doing lightning round, but did the drama change Linux forever or did the technology change Linux forever? >> The the effect well I mean the war itself and the the Linux philosophy I think I don't know the departure the departure from the L Unix philosophy rather kind of changed things forever. It was a bigger deal than 2010 and we're talking about circuit 2010. You know what I'm saying? Today no not so much. So, can we average us out to a B tier then because I have literally everybody all around you? >> Absolutely not, Matt. I will not have >> Well, you know what, Drew? >> You You butter. Just get over it. >> All right. All right. Uh, rust in the kernel. What do you think, Brody? Is is it that a big deal or not a big deal? >> Right now, I think it's there's a site that keeps track of the amount. I think it's like 1% of the kernel is rust right now. There are parts of the kernel which are very very rust uh focused like the GPU part of the kernel they will they're not accepting new drivers that not written in rust. For them rust has fundamentally changed how they are approaching driver development. They do not want to deal with C problems anymore. They refuse. They will keep the drivers around that work but they're not going to do anything new in C. I do think that this is going to fundamentally change how things are working. It also makes it far more approachable for LLMs. good or a bad thing. LM tend to do a lot better of job with Rust code than they do with CC code. Uh partially because Rust is just an easier language to write in that regard. Also because there's a lot of really bad examples of C code out there they're trained on. I do actually think this is an S. It's not something most people care about, but for the people who do for like the kernel developers and I I I think this is an S. And I think some of those effects will sort of make their way to users as well. Okay, Nate, >> this is also S. Despite the actual current developers, if you ever got into a Discord or into a Reddit, oh my lord, they can't stop talking about it. So, obviously, this is an S tier because it's it the deal is it's something that's kind of new and some people just hate change and some people think that we should just all embrace the future. So, they're like there's a big debate in between. So, this is an S tier to me. Okay, Drew. >> Yeah, real m This is an s uh real maintainers actually quit. The colonel's future has uh the future direction of the colonel has changed forever. And uh this is a this is a big deal. One that has a body count by the way because of the careers this has changed. So yeah, this is S tier. No question. >> I'm gonna I'm completely the opposite of all three of you guys actually. I'm F tier on this. Nobody cares. And by nobody, I mean anybody outside of the Linux kernel. Um, if you're a Linux kernel developer, you care an extraordinary amount, but that's just a few hundred people, maybe a thousand people in the entire world for the most part, you know, and then and maybe there are people who are surrounding it that are in the periphery. Let's make, you know, but if you're a general everyday Linux user, I'm sorry. You don't care what what the colonel's written as long as it works. Um, but I'm outvoted. Um, so I I can understand you guys' guys's um the reason behind it, but like if you're looking at like a like if you went to a general Linux purpose, general purpose Linux server and say, "Hey, do you care what the Linux kernel is written in?" Most people they don't care. So >> no, no, no. See, if you ask it like that that they don't care. If you say, "Hey, is Russ good?" then watch the fireworks. Well, well, that's different because that's different because they they have to deal with other programs that they interact with. >> Yeah, >> guys, I don't know how to break this to you, but most people don't even know what kernel they're running, let alone what it's >> I think what Russ Colernel has done is this is also sort of cemented the language as a career. Like that's something that Rust didn't have for a long time. Now, it actually legitimately is a career to be a Rust developer. And that will then expand out into like user space applications as well. That's also part of what I'm thinking about here. >> It has made it less of a meme than it was before because before it was just like, oh, oh, you're writing rewriting your core utils in Rust. Congratulations. You did you spent, you know, time on nothing. But this is actually like real original development in a lot of in a lot of times. Whereas it's because it's not like they're rewriting the the kernel in Rust. They're writing a lot of new parts, new drivers and and stuff in Rust. >> And younger guys, too. I think that's the real that's the real plus here. I mean, uh, Rust didn't fix the colonel's age problem, but young people were scared because they were using C and that they had very little like experience with. And so Rust kind of like us, you know, got them over the hump. And now the guys that have been doing it for 40 years, at least there's some new developers. I think there's a generational change here, a shift, uh, that can only help the Colonel going forward. So, um, yeah, Matt, you're out voted. >> That's fine. >> See is cobalt 30 years from now. >> Um, okay. You and I are going to have to go >> Cobalt in college, man. >> We're going to have to we're going to have to fight on that. Also, Cobalt's still perfectly usable in a lot of places. It Yes. For the five developers that know it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> $400,000 a year because no one else wants to learn it, >> right? I I don't think it will go that far, but you're you're probably right. All right. Uh Manguro and their certificates and their inability to renew them. Um Brody, how big was this drama? How much did it actually matter? Where would you rank it? I think it it it has hurt Mangaro's reputation quite a bit even though they they've actually been pretty good the past couple of years. It did hurt their reputation for a long time. People still bring it up now. People still meme about it like Menaro is unreliable along with the whole like they do the AUR with a bad update to PAMAC where every keystroke would send like 10 requests to the AUR. I don't think it it ultimately mattered, but it was definitely funny at the time. It mattered to Mangaro people. I'd put it around like a D. Okay, Nate. Mangaro was definitely a lot more popular back then as well. >> True. >> For things like Cashios. >> Yeah, Nate. >> Yeah, I would put it at a C just because of when it was happening. They actually had quite a bit more user base. Of course, we all know that now Cashi is kind of like the new kid on the block and everybody loves it. So, I'd put it around a C because it it actually did affect quite a few especially new users that were coming and they were trying to run an Arch system and they installed it and yeah, it that was a mess. So, I'd put it at C. >> Okay, Drew. >> Yeah, I'm going to give it a C as well. It's it's it's it's funny. It's it's just flatout funny. It I don't think it harmed anybody, so it's not that dramatic. Uh but it is a it's a running gag about their uh their security implication and their and their like management team and stuff like that. It's it's funny. It's a C. >> It was a reputational hit that had no technological like impact on anybody outside of the organization, right? Um and they they the problem with that is that their reputation never recovered from it. every organiz like Ubuntu has had and Canonicle have had missteps all over the place for the last you know 20 years but because they've done good work since then you know people forget that they used to put an Amazon link in their freaking dock for like years on end right yeah people remember it but it it doesn't impact their reputation outside of a few people who you know hold the grudge everybody else has moved on whereas with Benjaro this was just like the first step in a history of just continued like drama within the organization, drama without the organization. Now, now all of a sudden some there's talk of a fork happening because like half like 90% of the the the organization wants to take it away and there's like this one guy who holds it with like an iron fist or whatever. And it's all just led to like their their reputation going from like wow this is a great way to use Arch because it's a little bit more stable and it's easier to install and all this stuff to being like if you use Mangaro you're a [ __ ] joke dude. You know, like like like who the [ __ ] uses Mangaro? And yes, the one person in the chat that uses Mangaro, we know. You don't have to tell us. All right. Um, also use whatever you want, dude. I don't really care. I'm just trying to be I'm trying to be dramatic here. All right. Uh, anyways, did we did we agree on a C tier there, guys? Yeah. >> Fine. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Where is it? There we go. All right. Uh, Lionus and LLM's fork it or bust. Um, this is kind of like the same thing we talked about with the AI stuff earlier. So, Brody, your general thoughts on Lionus's opinion on AI and uh the drama that it caused because this was covered in like the national news. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is this is one of those like very developing things because the tools are getting better. The kernel is like a it's obviously a very important project. It's really hard to say long term how this is going to really play out. Like I I don't I don't I really just don't know. I think I I don't know of anyone who quit the kernel because of this, right? So it's like it's already kind of less than what Rust is at least to some extent. I don't know. I I think this is this is definitely an interesting one. This is an interesting one and it's going to ch I think where AI sort of sits is is going to change the way people are doing development forever. There are people that are growing up as programmers now using AI from the day they start programming and some of those people are going to be in the kernel. I think a A is fair. >> Okay. Uh, Nate, >> this has to do with AI, which I really don't care about, but it is a big deal right now for a lot of reasons. So, I'm going to I'm going to place it at a I would say S, but I'm going to put it at A, but it'll be a upper A just because of how much drama is surrounded. Not just the LMMS, but also like the hardware side of it. Uh, every all the pricing, like all that stuff is all affected by this problem. So yeah, I'd put a hot A. >> Okay, Drew. So, okay. Is this the where he says like fork fork fork off or something like that? Okay. Okay. Um >> obviously people were angry about AI assistant contributions to the colonel and they in and in in his kind of like retort. I'm going to give it a D. I don't I think it's barely news because it's I I I'm I guess I'm a little bit anesthetized about you know Alinus Zinger with zero code zero uh policy changes and and when and we're you know I think it's a D. I don't know that it's like that newsworthy and it's it's not going to affect anybody really. I think it's funny. It's it's a just it's a quip. >> Yeah. I want to reiterate that this made it on like the national like actual like not not like the nightly news or anything but like like there were like newspapers like that don't normally cover this [ __ ] that covered it you know and that for a Linux thing that's pretty I think that's a pretty big deal I I think part of it was because Lionus's like lore you know with not only within the Linux community but within the software community in general He's like the the godfather of a lot of technology, right? He's one of those guys. I mean, if he were like a multi-billionaire, you'd be talking about him with like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, right? Like he just because Micros, you know, the Mac and Windows were much more popular, those guys become much more of a a household name. Lionus is right up there with those guys. You just don't hear about them because Linux wasn't as popular, right? I I personally think that this was a huge deal simply because of his opinion on it. It was like a it was like um God coming down and just saying this is the way something's going to go. You know, he he dict he dictated how a lot of people are going to feel about this because a lot of people are going to follow in his footsteps. Even people who were vehemently against it before once they saw he was like, you know, we need to do this and it makes sense. They're like, yeah, okay, that's what we're going to do. So, I I would also go with a with an A tier. I don't think it's quite S tier, but A tier for for sure. So, uh Drew out outvoted there, bud. >> Yep. That's great. >> All right, let's go ahead and move on to We'll just do another Linus one real quick. He he he swears a lot and and um that made people angry. Um >> did it? >> I mean, he had to take a class. I mean, SO >> OH. OH, that's what you're talking about. When he took a he was forced to take a break from the colonel. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so was this was this a big drama or a little drama, Brody? >> Well, he was like forced out of the colonel basically for like a six-month period or something. Greg Crow Hartman just took over his job for that period. I think in the long run it doesn't matter. It definitely did change the way that Tova's communicated, right? like we we we can go back and look at some especially like some late 90s early 2000s Tvold posting and he had some very choice words for some people. He's definitely mellowed out and a part of that obviously comes with age as well. I don't I don't think it really mattered that much. I like ultimately he's still he he still communicates in most the same way. He's just a little bit nicer about it. And this is something which only really matters to kernel developers. So, I'm going to put it around like maybe maybe D. >> Uh Nate, >> I'm going to put it at a B because it it kind of to me so I don't of course all desktop users here it didn't really affect us like most of us don't care. I personally try to avoid from doing that at any point. But at the same time for the business world, it was like a major deal because, you know, that's the time where they were actually trying to move into, I guess, being a little bit more mainstream and all that kind of stuff. So, I just put it at B just kind of middle of the road. And Drew, >> yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna give it a D as uh as well. I think so. I know that this is we all have especially with jobs we have code of conduct and we try to adhere to this code of conduct and I think that I think that sometimes Lionus forgets that he is the leader of a very important piece of uh of architecture and uh and he needs to follow the code of conduct. Having said that, this is still barely news. Okay, I'm going to go with a C tier just to average everybody out. I think the reason why this matters mostly is because it mellowed him out a little bit, right? Um it it did change like Brody said, it changed the way he communicated and I think that that has le has lessened the drama some we we have less big drama coming from Lionus. He's less the cause of drama and more the responder to drama now. Like it used to be like he was the cause of drama sometimes. now like like when he said [ __ ] video like on camera, you know, now he doesn't really do that anymore. Now he comes in in when Ken Over Street or whatever or whatever, he he he responds to the drama. Very rarely do you see him being the cause like he doesn't sound send out a mass email on the mailing list causing drama anymore. He just responds to things. Um so I I will say uh see on that one. Um all right, let's see here. So we So we have we're going to skip the bit war one. Misilla does not know what it's doing is what the rest of that title is supposed to say. I mean, I think we were just trying to do general Mozilla drama. Do you guys think Do where does does do people actually care about Firefox anymore? Um, Florp user Brody, >> I think at the time that was specifically about Mozilla just killing off a bunch of random products that people actually I think they I don't remember what they killed off. Something people actually cared about. I don't think it really like here's the thing. A lot of people that use Firefox like to complain about Firefox and they don't stop using Firefox, right? Like Firefox is such a neat it's it's like a tiny part of the browser market at this point, but I don't think any of the drama has affected that market share. Like it's just gradually trended downwards basically because Mozilla has just like not really caught up with a lot of the functionality that browse select Chromium had like really added yet. It's it's interesting. It's fun, I guess. But like maybe C. >> Nate, >> how I feel? It's a F. I don't care. Um, how much drama is actually there? I would actually kind of place it more in a B because like there's still a constant debate between Fire or Mozzilla and like the other browsers. And so I would I personally put it at a B because there's still a huge debate that's happening between just normal Linux users like you know it's the default browser that comes through. I personally think it's terrible and they need to find some another new default but you know is what it is. Okay, Drew. I want them to succeed so badly and they do face plant after face plant after faceplant and all of them kind of like are the uncomfortable math is that each of these face plants is about a C you know especially because we're not really face I mean sorry uh Mozilla and Firefox in particular is is kind of like inconsequential at this point be if you're looking at it just from like okay well there's Chrome and there's Brave and there's other things and and they become so small that it sucks that that it that these these face plants don't even move the scale at all at this point. You know the you know I would love to say that they're you know they are consequential and that this deserves a B or an A, but does it? I don't know. I don't know. I'm gonna give it a C, man. I'm gonna give it a C. >> Okay. So, I'm gonna say something very uncomfortable for people who don't like politics because I don't like politics either, but Firefox is like Donald Trump. Um, and that has nothing to do with his politics. It's just that Donald Trump says so much [ __ ] whether you agree with it or not. By the time you actually care, he's already said some more [ __ ] Um, and he just we've just moved on, right? So, it's just it's just the truth. um he just just says [ __ ] and you know he does something that's offends like half the country whether one half or the other doesn't really matter and but by the time you know people actually noticed he's already offended the other half of the country so it's just kind of the the the he just says a lot of [ __ ] that's what Misilla does a lot of [ __ ] and none of it's good so and so my point is nobody cares about Mozilla or the drama um so I'm going to go with F tier actually on this because what the [ __ ] Misilla nobody Nobody cares about you anymore. Just just die already. >> Um I've given I' I've given up. Like they're not going to do anything good. They're doing another redesign. Nobody gives a [ __ ] what the browser looks like. Make a good browser. All right. Anyways, um where do we do we want to compromise on a Dtier? >> I went if I went if with you. So, >> all right. And the other guys. >> All right. And we finally got these down onto one line, guys. So, Drew, where Drew, where we went wrong is we had way too many. We overestimated our abilities to get through. >> Yeah. No, I I >> I was thinking that we would parse some stuff down and we would just pick like a 10 or something. >> All right, so Drew, here's what I'm going to do cuz we're not going to make it through all these. We're already at an hour and a half. >> Um, sorry, Nate. >> Um, Drew, pick two that we that we need to do that we have left and those are the two that we'll do. The rest of them we're going to leave on the on the cutting room for >> All right. Well, let's put on >> Yeah. Yeah. No, let's talk about let's talk about PewDiePie and let's talk about the one softball and the other one a hard ball. The uh the XZ backdoor issue. >> Okay. We will start with PewDiePie. Broie, PewDiePie switching to Linux. Big deal or not a big deal? >> That's really what we should have called this. Sorry. >> I don't think individually it was a big deal. But I do think that what it has done is it convinced a lot more people to give it a try. This sort of goes into the Steam Deck as well. They're kind of very related topics here. This showed normal people that Linux is actually a real operating system. Like this is not like a a joke hacky thing you see in a movie. Like this is a thing that a real person can actually use. And you don't need to be a developer. You don't need to be an engineer. Yeah. Hey, you need to read some documentation. Sure. But I did see a lot more people like sort of coming from that. Like obviously you had the LTT challenge as well which is very similar and it's really just it it's shown people the state Linux is actually in now. Cuz I think a lot of people may have had an idea of Linux that was set like oh Wi-Fi drivers don't work, GPU drivers don't work and all of these things. Like I think he had an Nvidia card as well. Nvidia drivers don't work. It's just like none of this stuff is true anymore. So, I actually do think this is like an A. >> Nate, >> I'm going to go one tier above you. I think it's an actual S because like just from his his movement alone. You've seen so many younger people actually start trying Linux. And like look at the flood of YouTube videos like you know for a while I tried videos for try Linux for seven days. Now it's like I've been using Linux for a month. I've been using Linux for like 3 months. Like it's it's getting bigger. So I really think that this is actually an S tier. So >> true. >> Yeah. A uh we spent 20 years making Year of the Linux desktop jokes. And the thing that finally moved the needle was a Swedish guy that Windows tortured into submission. And he speed ran through the entire Linux user arc in like no time flat. mint arch ricing self-hosting in about three months and it takes the rest of us about a decade to go through that with one divorce from Gnome. So yeah, I'm going to give it an A because this mattered to a lot of people and maybe it didn't change Linux u but it is the best recruitment ad that we have never paid for. >> Nate's right on this one. It's S. It has it has got to be S. And the reason why he got it exactly right, the YouTube videos, this didn't influence the market so much as it influenced YouTube. And YouTube is where influencers live. And what people realized from PewDiePie was that Linux videos sell. Um, maybe not for us, the ones who have been trying to actually do this for a long time and actually making Linux content. But if if you are like a someone who has a lot of subscribers, I'm talking like more than Brody, like a lot of a lot a lot of subscribers, you by seeing him do that, you realized that this can lead to content opportunities, you know what I mean? And that has led to a lot of people doing it simply because it'll get them some views. And um I I think that that in itself maybe they didn't a lot of them had really crappy expectations and really crappy results and maybe some of that has led to some you know mud on the face of Linux but some people you know it it led to a lot more exposure. It wasn't just that PewDiePie switched to Linux. It was that all of these other YouTubers that maybe not as big as PewDiePie followed his in his footsteps and made content that maybe didn't actually watch PewDiePie. So, I think that that I that's why it has to be S tier simply because there was so many I I mean you you can't scroll through your YouTube feed right now even even months and months later. I mean just the other day I saw hardware haven which I mean yeah he's he's more in our like neck of the woods but he just made a video saying I I finally did it. I switched to Linux like like all the time you're hear seeing these things like over and over and over again. I think that that PewDiePie maybe wasn't the first, but he was definitely the biggest and that has led to a avalanche of content creators doing that. Did it move the needle partially? I think it did. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think it's an S tier, you guys. I think I think that's where we're going to put it. So, uh, the X XZ backdoor uh, flaw thing. U, I'm very technologically, you know, into this stuff. Uh, what do you think this in terms cuz this this was actually like on the nightly news put out there in front of people. So, Brody, what do you think the XC back door did in terms of the drama? Yeah. Uh, big or bad? The result was nothing because people actually caught it. This had the potential of being absolutely devastating to the entire Linux, not just like desktop users, but everybody out there running like a modern system. I think what it also really highlighted is that a lot of projects out there are very undermaintained and not just like random little terminals. Who cares about like actual critical infrastructure very undermained? Great example is like open printing. Open printing is like a few guys till camper that does most of the work there. I think this if this had actually not been caught 100% s but the result itself I like the result itself was nothing. Um, but I think just for raising awareness of like lack of maintainership for a lot of projects, whether or not anything's actually come of that, I I would have to bounce between an A or an S. >> Okay, Nate, >> I I was actually going to go the same line that Brody was going, it it did it did expose the lack of like actually maintaining your projects and but at the same time, they did catch it. It was, you know, but it's like one of those random chance that somebody just slightly noticed something slightly off at like 500 milliseconds. >> Yeah. It was like slightly slower than it should have been. Some weird thing like that. Yeah. >> And so, and they started digging like that lets you know how easy it is that if you're not careful and you're trying to maintain a project of that you're not actually like if you're not actually checking your code, you're going to run into issues like this. So, I'm going to give it a A. My heart says B, but I'll give it a A just because there was a potential huge issue that was there. >> Okay, Drew. Yeah, 500 milliseconds slow. That that's where we are, you know, and this, you know, this Postgress developer, you know, was annoyed by a half second delay and avoided I mean, billions in attacker tradecraft versus one man's benchmark. that that's that's really where it was. So, this is a this is an S, guys. I I I have to admit I was I think that what Brody said about you know maintainers and some and they're you know and the loneliness sometimes uh these maintainers have just kind of they're out there just doing yman's work and a socially engineered uh burnout solo maintainer could also describe half of the infrastructure and so u it changed the entire industry how and how it thinks about maintainers uh and the trust and the funding. Um this is the nearest miss in Linux history. It is a miss granted but is this is an S this is an S tier uh issue. Okay. So, I agree that it's an S tier issue, but my an my question to you guys, and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna actually give you a chance to respond to it, so I'm sorry about that, but uh did it actually change the way people look at maintainers for >> it changed the way they look at them. They didn't do anything about it, >> right? Like the the the outcome is that we're exactly in the same place we were when this happened. Like they're they're still famously underfunded. I mean, there's still there's still there's still incredibly important projects that are just done by one person who's either eventually going to burn out or die or or just, you know, move on to other things or whatever happens to may be, right? And those things will we we just saw we just I mean it's not really the same situation obviously, but the the whole Nixos thing that's going on right now with like half of the the NYX packages guys that just got up and left because of burnout, right? And this is a that's like a big project, right? But that stuff happens on the smaller stuff too with less drama obviously. But you know where developers just they don't they don't want to work on a print a printer driver anymore. You know like they don't want to do it. They want they need to do other things. They need to actually make money and feed their family. >> And I I agree I agree that it had potential to lead to people actually, you know, supporting developers and companies putting in money. It didn't actually happen though. Drew, you or Nate, you were gonna say something. >> I was going to say even the people that make printers like HP still don't want to put actual effort into printer drivers. >> And we know that because the the wi the wizards that you install them on, like if you have to install one on Windows, it still looks, I swear to God, exactly like it did in 1995. I mean, it literally uses the same UI that they used before Brody was born. And and that is the hat trick for Brody being really young jokes. So, um, all right. And, um, so I I will I I think we can agree that this was between A and S, so we'll just go ahead and put it as an S tier. All right. >> Okay. So, so someone asked where our faces were. Tada. You wanted to see it. I don't know. Why are you guys all running away in horror? I'm sorry. Okay. So, that is it. So, we're going to actually do something that we've haven't done in the entire history. Well, since nuggies were a thing, we're not doing nuggies tonight, guys. We are not doing those. Um, we This was by the far the longest podcast we've ever done. There you go. We we we didn't plan it that way, but it it was good. All right. Anyway, so, uh, Brody, why don't you tell us where people I mean, for those of I mean, seriously, if you don't know where Brody, you can find Brody, but Brody, where can we find you on the interwebs? >> Uh, I'm on YouTube. that is Brody Robertson. You can find all my other like social media links there, Twitter, all that stuff. Uh go there for that. I've got a gaming channel, Brody on Games. I stream on YouTube and Twitch. And that is uh Thursday, Friday, Adelaide time, 10:00 a.m. Uh do the conversion yourself. And the podcast is Tech Overt. The episode comes out on Saturday for me and there are clips come out for the rest of the week. And there's a react channel if you want to see clips from the stream as well. Um so yeah, >> like four channels. Yeah, go subscribe to his stuff. Um, just know that he puts out a lot of content. Um, it's a lot of content. >> I would recommend you don't go do other things you like. >> Hey, you want I I subscribe to all four channels. Um, I just put a filter on. So, >> fair enough. Fair enough. >> There's a couple other ones. They just put out a lot of content. I I will go see it when I need to. All right. So, um, go follow his all all of his stuff. Make sure you do that. Thank you so much for joining us, Brody. We do really appreciate it. Um, thanks for putting up with all of our delays and for sticking around for 2 hours worth of us just talking about uh all of your drama cuz this is all you you are >> also my drama. >> No, no, the the thumbnails say otherwise. I mean, I'm just saying. So, all right. Uh, if you want to get in contact with us, the best way Matt, look at the camera. The best way to do the best way to do this is via email. Email at the linkscast.org is that email address. Uh, if you want to get a hold of any of the guys, just email there and I can forward it along to them. If you want to find Drew on the YouTube, he is just the guy Linux. He does his stuff on Debian and scripting and window managers and of course his DRO Butterbean uh.org is where you can find that. Um, and uh, he put out a today which was his video today was very what like what you can almost see him burying his head in his hands like what am I doing here man? How did I get here? It was like it was like 10 minutes of just him wondering how he ended up in the place where he's at. It it was glorious to see. So check out butterbean.org and just the guy Linux on YouTube. Check him out. Nate is also on YouTube. He is Nate picks tech world on YouTube. He makes videos about uh hardware usually and things relating to that kind of stuff. So if you're interested in the hardware aspect of open source, go check out Napex Tech World on YouTube, too. He does make videos. He's just got other things going on. He has, you know, he's a busy business. >> I decided to become a teacher for some reason. >> Yeah, I I I I warned you, by the way. I I warned you. Um thank God I thank God my time is done on Friday. So I'm I'm just saying. Uh, anyways, that is it for us on this one. We >> Hold on, Matt. Let me just say one thing. Matt is going to be hosting his uh morning. Go ahead, Matt. If you know where I'm going with this. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The lug, if you were watching this live, you can join us on Thursday for our first lug of the month. It's um open mic morning is what we're calling it cuz I'm a very clever name. Um but anyways, basically we're just going to hang out. It's it's our first lug of the month. If you can't join us on that one, we do a second one on the fourth Thursday of the month every month, and that's going to be at the in the evening at 8:15 p.m. Eastern time. Basically, we just get into a room. This the second one of the month, we'll be talking about Cashio OS. So, if you're interested in talking about Cashi, uh definitely join us. It should be a good time. We we should have a lot of people who are there or are very interested in talking about their favorite DRO because I have a lot of people in my comments saying, "Matt, Cashi is the best DRO." I've frankly never tried it. So I can't help it. I'm not an Arch guy. I'm a NexOS user. I'm not even on a real DRO. So um with that being said, that's where we're going to end it. We will see you guys next time. Thank you Brody for joining us. We will see you on the next one. >> Absolute pleasure.