Radon and Your Health

I'm J Park with the Department of Public Health. I'm just here to do a uh a brief rate on what's it about, some basic background for it, and how we can test for it. And I'm really excited to partner with San Francisco Library. Um this is really encouraging to see all the work they're put into it. So let me go here. This is radon decay chain. This is just real basic facts. What is radon? You know, it's a naturally occurring element in the ground. So it's it's not in any you know particular it's not like you know from a pollution or anything like that and for a simplified version of it it's right here. Here is the actual, you know, decay chain. And what's really gets people, it's called palonium 214 and 218. And those are the two, you know, the half life about three and a half minutes. And and then the other one 14's much shorter. But those are the ones that cause the main part of the the cancer in the lungs. And so that that's what makes it so dangerous is the rapid decay. Uh can you scroll down to the next slide, please? So again, here it is. Just a radon. you know, it's a natural element and just shows you the the decay chain and just some scientific, you know, things about it. It's and it goes all the way down. How do I have this here? Oh, yeah. It goes all the way down to what is it? Lead there. But the decay chain is it starts out with raining, right? Four and a half billion years. And then it goes all the way down, you know, as it go further down, you know, it's like plum 214's 3 minutes and 14 as here is 164 microsconds. And again, those are the two dangerous parts, you know, of the decay chain. Um, red on 222 is what most devices measure, in case you're wondering how the actual devices work, but that will cover later in the slide. Can you scroll down, please? Again, we measure in the United States what's called a picoy. It's, you know, it's a decay chain. So, it's about eight, I think, eight decays um, you know, in a minute um in in I guess in a liter of air. And it's just a unit of measure that we do. And that's how the industry describes it. So four is the action level in the United States to to consider really um you should do some mitigation if you're at that level. Um can you do the next slide please? So here how dangerous is 4.0 you know is a action level. Well it talks about here in my slide you know has about hospital X-rays and that's just something that public can understand. We have you know it's equivalent to 100 x-rays which is of course really like here you have to have four x-rays per year made maximum and this is at 100. So four pal carries is is the public should take it seriously and we should really consider mitigation at at this level. Uh next slide please. So again the library project. So I have there's all these different libraries in California about 330 have them about just under just over 1100. So for San Francisco, San Francisco has I think a hundred or so these devices, but you have to have only you have to have some replacements. I'm going to deliver 60 maybe 70 more. Uh actually I think on Friday or Monday this coming Friday they should have another 70 to so I want to ease the burden. So the weight times will go way down. I'm going to deliver significant amounts you know really soon here. Um can you scroll down please for the next one? Next slide. So in case there's a this is rural Kentucky now obviously it's not San Francisco but when we did these actual talks you know and give this to the libraries the rate of radon testing actually went way up. So, I'm encouraging I'm I'm encouraged by this and hopefully through this public outreach like the library is doing here for San Francisco, I can encourage the rate of testing to really increase in California. And that's the ultimate goal of the state public health department is to just increase rate on awareness and knowledge um and and health effects. Can you scroll down again? So, what type of health effects can random cause? the number one cause right now for non-smoker it's never it's number one cause of lung cancer if you never smoked and if you have smoked um you know obviously it goes up but if for everybody in the United States smoker and smokers combined is the second leading cause of lung cancers and here is some of the data you know um from the um that we have there's about 21,000 lung cancer deaths per year and if you look for non-smokers it's about 3,000 people who never smoked so it's really important you know just to test your house, you know, for radon and see if you have it and from a health perspective. There other studies out there that are not conclusive right now and they're still gathering data. Radon might affect other parts, too, but we're right now we're that's just in the infancy mode. Uh, next slide, please. So, here are some great I have some read on uh videos, you know, for the general public to u to view. Um, they'll be on our website eventually, probably hopefully next six months and it just talks about radon in schools, radon in home, what to do after you test. It's in English and Spanish. So, uh, if you have a chance, you know, I'm really encouraged, you know, I'm not sure how if you guys have access to these videos, you know, via public website from the San Francisco library here, but this these are really good videos to watch and um, I encourage you, you know, to view them. They're on my website like again about about five months from now probably probably towards the end of the year. Uh next slide. So we have how do we increase ways to increase red on awareness besides those videos is we have a children's coloring book that the EPA is going to give us very shortly here. And so this is really encouraging to have. You know what do the coloring books look like? Can you want to scroll down one more slide? This is just the cover of it. Here's EPA superheroes and it's about I think a 20 25 page coloring book. It's kind of neat. They have like word searches and things like that. So, I'm excited to go ahead and um you know pass this out to the general public or to the different libraries. Um I just haven't received one yet, but hopefully in the next uh six or eight weeks we'll get them from EPA and then we'll we'll pass them out to you know the libraries will have these hopefully to pass out soon. Uh next slide. So here's some [clears throat] radon data. Again, if a if it this is really important to understand just because you have, you know, low amount in a zip code or high amount, you know, just it's higher amounts, you know, could be more indicative of having a problem, but you really should test, you know, you have to understand where the data came from from individual homeowners. So one house could have five data points, another building could have many more. So, we really lack the data, you know, um we have some data points, which is good here, but we're trying to increase the data points uh and for our website and we're encouraging people to test and that will help us. And but make sure um just don't use this as a guide and say, "Oh, well, this zip code has has only, you know, what x% or this zip code has a lot more, you know." So, don't go by zip codes. Just, you know, it's really best to test because your neighbors could have it and you might not. So, you're looking for like a pattern here. I get that question all the time. Well, my zip code doesn't have much. Should I test? Well, the answer is yes. Can scroll down again. And so here, oh, next slide, please. So, again, here's just some more zip codes with the numbers. You know, some obviously have more than others, but we're, you know, don't be alarmed by that. You know, just if if you um see a zip code, you know, that a little bit high, okay? You know, that's just again, that's just the random test from homeowners. That's what we have for our data. And you know, I just encourage you to test. Next zip code, please. Here's some more, you know, some more numbers here. If you see your zip code up here, you know, I I put all the zip codes of San Francisco up here so people can look at these. Uh, ne next slide, please. Again, you know, the um same thing. Um, and then one more. Okay. So, so you saw the zip codes, you know, for San Francisco. So, why did I choose a eco blue radon monitor? Um this is the reasons why tells you next you next slide. Um I I trust the library program because there's no privacy concern concerns. No Wi-Fi is involved. Can be used multiple times. You you plug the cube in to get instant readings. I need something that's durable and easy to use. Um and it's not like um you know you have to set it up or download parts or download, you know, um instructions or anything like that. You simply plug it in and it's very very simple to use. It's about two feet from Wi-Fi. So, make sure you need to do that. And so, I really um this is the reason why I chose this particular monitor for um this the library project that I'm currently doing. And with that, I'll go ahead and how to use a product and other things like that for placement things like that. I'll let Dallas explain the next six slides or so. >> Thanks, Dale. Next slide, please. So, the the EcoBlue uh monitor uh as Dale said was was chosen for um the project and for actually for library lending programs um in a lot of states across the country. And and the reason it's popular for this purpose is because it's easy to use. It doesn't require um an a mobile app or or Bluetooth or Wi-Fi in order to get results. Uh you simply uh plug it in and uh you can start testing. Um which makes it easy. Um I'll I'll kind of go over how easy it is to use as we move forward, but uh the important thing is to choose the the correct uh place to test. So, you want to test in the lowest level of your home that you spend time in in a room um that you regularly use. Um if if you um live in a house with a crawl space, then you want to test in a occupied room uh over that crawl space. If you have a house on a concrete slab, then again, pick a room that you spend the most time in. that could perhaps be your bedroom or your family room. Um, if you do have a basement home, then if you occupy that basement, uh, then, uh, you want to spend, uh, locate the the monitor in a room that you spend time in in the basement level. Um, you want to place it at least 20 in off the floor, uh, up to within, uh, say a foot of the ceiling. The important thing is to make sure that you put it in the breathing zone. and and we say just you know as low as 20 in off the floor because we have children um you know who are uh going to be lower in that breathing zone than than those of us who are adults. So uh just in in that breathing zone is is the proper place to put it. You want to get it at least uh a foot from an exterior wall but 3 ft from windows or doors. Um and uh uh so so you can pick a good spot and as Dale mentioned, you want to also keep it away from um a Wi-Fi router um at least by a couple feet. Um these devices are have been proven to be uh durable and um uh so that's another reason why they've been chosen for library lending programs. Next slide. Uh so here you can see uh uh a couple of photos of the devices. Uh they come in a couple different colors. You probably got some of each in the library uh program there in California. Um but uh part of the protocol for testing your home for a a short-term test, which could be as little as 2 days, uh for as long as 7 to even 14 days. I'm not sure what the San Francisco um library program is allowing you for um you know checkout time, but uh if you can keep it for at least 7 days, that's great. Um but you want to close the windows in your your home for 12 hours prior to the test and keep them closed during the test. And that's because you're only uh testing for a short period of time. Of course, um this time of year, perhaps it's it's uh warm enough that you want to keep the windows closed anyway because of uh um you want to stay comfortable running that air conditioning. Um and uh the longer you test uh during the time period you're allowed to have the device, uh the better. Um there is a button on the back. If you go to the next slide, um you'll see over on the right side there is a mode button and a settings button. So if you press that mode button, then if you look at the left side, you see um there is a real time reading which will be the radon concentration for the current hour. And then you can press that mode button again until it shows an uh a D which is for daily. And that will show you the radon concentration average for the day. You can press that mode button again and it will show you a W for weekly. So once it's been out for a week, then uh even before it'll show you at least the time you have for that week. Um, it will show you the average for the week and then it does give you the ability to also uh press the mode button over to M for monthly and L for long-term uh for the total time it's been deployed. So you want to um look at that uh and get your weekly average. Um the units are set for pauries per liter. uh there if you do see where it comes up as BQ/M3 that's Beckerel's per cubic meter and the rest of the world measures radon and beckerels per cubic meter um just like uh most of the rest of the world uh measures everything in in in the metric system. Um radon is is is similar in that regard. uh we are unique along with uh perhaps uh Great Britain and and a few places that measure in pico curies per liter. Um you can see that the setting also gives you the ability to dim the LED light. Um and uh then you can do a factory reset which is what you would like to do if before you bring it back to the library. But if you forget, that's okay because the librarians have been have been uh schooled on how to do that uh to get it ready for the next um person who checks it out. Next, so here's just a little diagram to remind you of the the places to uh or how you should deploy the device in the room you you choose, which will be on that lowest level you spend time. Uh again, uh the important things is you want to keep it at least a foot off an exterior wall. You want to keep it 3 ft from a exterior window or door. Um at least 12 in below the ceiling, at least 20 in or more above the floor, uh 4 in from other objects, and uh 2 ft from your Wi-Fi router. Um once again, I'll remind you, uh test for at least 2 days. uh seven days will give you a better result. Next. Um so uh the ecoblue monitor actually works by taking a measurement uh every hour. So it's collecting data for the hour and then it takes these radioactive counts. We're counting alpha decays uh which is the radiation that uh occurs when the radon atoms decay into those peloniums and um uh we count those for the hour and then we have a a calibration constant that converts those counts into pico curies per liter and so the display if it's on that real time mode the R then it will show you what the average is uh for that hour. Um this device is considered a consumer grade device. Um all that means really is uh they've been calibrated as a batch as opposed to every individual device being calibrated uniquely. Uh but I can assure you that um we do a remarkable job for for calibrating these even though they're it's in a in a larger batch. um and uh you can uh rely on the test results. But that said, the the recommendation is is should you find that your home has an elevated concentration, then um the best thing to do next is to uh contact uh Dale at the uh at the department uh or contact a professional to come do a professional test and um and confirm and uh then you can take action from there. once you have a confirmation. Next. Okay, Dale, you want to take over here? >> Sure. Uh, yes. Okay. So, I'm gl Thank you, Dallas, for that. That was very helpful. So, what can cause radon fluctuations? If you look at my chart here, I know you don't get snow in San Francisco. It can be cold. It can definitely be cold there. And so one of the changes, you know, like high or low pressures, temperature differences, and see here with HVAC systems, exhaust fans, these different things. So make sure a fireplace door, you know, you want to make sure you have that shut, you have the window shut. I cannot emphasize enough. Yes, you can have the AC on. Well, not probably not too common in San Francisco, but make sure you you if you do have these different items on, make sure they're like as far away as possible from like don't put something directly under a ceiling fan is probably best. You know, put it like off to the side away from the ceiling fan if possible. Just consider, you know, consider, you know, if it's like a major storm coming in that could affect it. So, you want to go ahead and have it for I think most libraries have for three weeks. I'm not understanding. Is that correct? I I think so. Is that correct, Lori? You can check out for three weeks. >> Yes, three weeks. Um what happened is for us, if no one has a hold on an item, um our system will automat automatically renew. Um but since there's so many holes, um patrons can only keep um the radon cube for 3 weeks for now. Yeah. Until, you know, all the holds are filled, then maybe if they need to keep longer, uh we'll send automatic email if uh we can successfully renew an item. But for now, it's only 3 weeks. and which is three weeks is a really good length of time to to to um you know to test for radon. So you want to make sure because 90 days longest long-term test and that's a little bit different but for what you guys have make sure the whole time the the radon know the the doors are shut and the windows are shut. I mean you obviously go in of your apartment or house but don't you know the fireplace is same thing you know make sure you have the vents shut things like that. Next slide please. Can you get the next slide? Oh, here we go. So, like Dallas said earlier, what do you do if you find radon? Okay, so we talked about testing, you know, how to test things like that. And if you're four puk carries, you know, or higher, sometimes I would go a little bit, you know, even lower, but you know, the the it's four, it's four in the United States, you know, if you want a bright line. Um, that's the level. So, what what do what's next? So, how do you go ahead and what do you do if you have four cares or higher? So, next slide, please. Okay. And I'm not I'm just using Jason as example. He's the first person on my website. So it's by alphabetical order you know by last name. So if you click on this right here on my on my um on this page and the important the most important part of my page is and this took me a couple years to think about people always ask me for this do you test for single family homes and there's some people some large companies only testing for like multif family like apartments and things like that or out of state. So I on if you ever go to my website and you click on that, it's going to show a list of people and it's going to say and it's going to have the word yes to it. So you can go ahead and and find some a professional tester in your area that's going to test for single family homes and they can come out to your house. Look at price is not too bad. It's moderate. Um and you can go ahead and call them up. Uh next. Oh, got one more thing, too. If you want to do this for real estate purposes or transactions, if you use a legal, nothing's legal until you have to use professional tester in California. So, that's someone on my list. So, if somebody's on my list and they got to your home, then that's considered a professional legal test. What what we have for the libraries and stuff, that's just more your situational and awareness. But using the people on my website is for legal purposes and documentation if that's if that's what you want to do. So you find radon. Now what this is a list of radon mitigators and can you go back to the slide underneath it real fast too. Um go go down. Okay. So and then go up again. So no um right there. So there's only 12 people in the whole state. And so why is that? This is where I'm coming in. We're going to have data published here hopefully about five months. We don't have radon videos. Round mitigation. Unfortunately, in California, like most states have far more. The number one driver of mitigation in California is people from other states, unfortunately, wanting testing and wanting mitigation. Right now, these 12 people are don't even do it full-time. They don't have to be in your area. Like, there's only one person in the entire Bay Area that does it. Um, and he's like 80% or 75% rate on, but he's not even full-time. And even the people in uh there's three people in the southeast area. That's because they do over half Nevada. So what I'm trying to say is not too many people are doing mitigation. I mean these these guys there's plenty of um you don't have to wait months and months and months and if you call them up they can come out to your house and relatively quickly if you want to mitigate and I'm trying to you know u tell people about it again through various educational u you know references like the library here which is really thankful this is happening. So, I'm trying to spread the word about radon and that's why we have so few people unfortunately in this state who do radon mitigation compared to other states. Uh, scroll down again, please. And to be a radon mitigator in California, you have to take and pass a oneweek test u for radon mitigation and on top of that, you have to be a licensed uh state of California contractor. So those are the two these so these people that you have for the mitigations they're very experienced people and they're you know they're regulated by the state. Uh next slide. So for more information you can go ahead and email me right there. Call me up and if you want to go to my web page that's my web page right there where you can contact. We have lots of good information about radon in California and other resources that we have listed. Um I think is that the last slide? Is there one more? >> Yeah, that's it. The that's the last slide. >> Thank you guys. Um so that's it and um everybody attending if there any questions I can answer right now. Um I'm willing to take them or it's up to Lori. I'm not sure the >> Yes. Yeah, we received quite a bit of uh questions from the audience. Um first question is, is the radar monitor only for air? I wonder if you can use it to test radon in tap water. >> Um the the monitor is only for radon in in air. And while radon in water um can be an issue, um it's only an issue in uh wellwater. So, if you are on a public water supply, then I wouldn't worry about having radon in your water with the possible exception if you're on a community well. Um, and the reason that is is during the typical water treatment process, the the radon is airrated um from the water uh before it, you know, as it's um as it's purified and and coming back to the uh uh to your tap. Um but if you're on a well uh there can be um elevated radon concentrations uh in the water. One of the issues that I I think we we've kind of brought to light with this program that Dale mentioned with the fact that there aren't a lot of um mitigators in California is there was a map that EPA put together way back in 1992. Um and and that map uh was not meant to be used for making a decision to test or not test. Um but it was it was actually to help determine um resources uh where resources [clears throat] should be uh focused uh for um testing and and mitigating. uh as this was all becoming um uh it was new and people were becoming aware and we were trying to get information uh from uh stateto state and there just weren't many radon tests utilized to create that map. Um in fact there were only about 5,000 tests all across the country. Um, so, uh, they used an algorithm that included a lot of things like housing types and, uh, uh, certain, uh, geological formations and flyovers from the military from ground radiation and different things. And, and it made it appear as if uh, radon just isn't much of a problem in California. And as a result, um, if you don't test, you don't really know what the problem is. So, I really salute uh Dale and the and the California Department of Health as well as the libraries for participating because this is going to provide an opportunity for more tests to get more information uh to see just how how widespread uh the problem is. But from the data we have, you know, we find elevated concentrations all across California. maybe not like we would in, you know, to the degree in in some states, but um if you're in one of those houses, then then if you're I if you're only one of 8% or 12% or 15% of the homes in that area um that have an elevated concentration, it doesn't matter to you. Um you're the one that's uh experiencing um you know, that exposure. Uh so um I I salute the fact that you've got an opportunity to do these tests. If you're worried about water, then what you could do is if you don't place it in the bathroom, um but maybe put it with the door open to your bathroom, put it on a on a dresser in your bedroom and then run the shower for a for a a little while. And if you see the radon concentrations uh starting to rise as a result of that uh shower running, then what's happening is the radon is is air rating from the water into the air and then you could measure it. But again, don't bother doing that unless you just happen to be on a well. And I don't know how many wells there are in the San Francisco area. Probably not many. >> Yeah. For the wells, you have to the closer you are to the source, the better. So there's really no need. I mean like you said the community service well you have to go to the source of the well to do it. It's a little bit more specialized equipment and that's a whole another discussion. Um water testing is much more rare. >> Thank you so much. Uh second question second and third question are related. When you say do not place the monitor by Wi-Fi uh do you mean not put it near a router? Um is it okay if we just turn off Wi-Fi? Um, this device doesn't need Wi-Fi. You can certainly turn it off, but I I don't know that I would bother as long as you're just not right next to the router itself. um if you if you move it where you're a couple feet away. Um the the reason we we um we express that as important is the only uh thing we found that could potentially interfere with the with the uh device getting a proper reading uh would be some uh electronic interference from that router itself. But as long as you're uh say 18 to 24 in away from that router where you place the monitor, then it will have no impact. >> Yeah, I actually tried. Yeah, just that's that's fine. Yeah, >> thank you both. Okay. Um, next question. Once we test um our homes, will the data store in the device and um can SFPL download and collect the data for health and safety purposes? um this particular device because it's set up to be simple um and and where you don't need um Wi-Fi or or Bluetooth in order to uh access the data does not allow you to just record the data hour after hour. So, you'll just need to watch it and then and then press that mode button to get the average for the day, the week, or the month. So, if you were to leave it for 3 weeks, then you could watch it for each week and then you could look at that um mode button until you get um M for month and get your average for the month. Even though it's just that 3-week period, it will average just those three weeks. Uh so, >> so the answer is no. We will not get that's the only downside of this. the public the department of public health would not get or uh any data from these cues it's and I had to do this because of privacy concerns for the library. So unfortunately it's once the the patron you know has this data you know we won't the public health department will not receive any of it and if that's what >> how did you get the data in in your um PowerPoint um you have data on oh um zip code how how many people test uh their homes and how many people have a higher um uh level of radon. How did you get those uh data? >> Sure. Well, two ways. Um maybe five or 5% or less um people what's called continuous rental monitoring devices and those are devices where people for professional testers will either uh go ahead and give me the data from the professional testers or the labs that collect that that collect these data from called CRM continuous run monitoring devices. The vast majority of the data is from uh the radon charcoal kits where people go ahead and use for single use only. gets sent to the the labs and then we get the I request the data from the labs >> and so data from the labs and are given to me and again we pass out trial test kits all the time not the um yeah we do quite a bit and then we go ahead and get the data from the labs directly and that's where all it came from that's a data from like 25 years or something it's many many years and hopefully we're going to have some more data uh hopefully in the next 18 months um I'm not sure How much more? Maybe six or 7,000 more. What you're looking at right here, I think we have about 58,000 data points for the state of California. And I'm hoping to increase that by quite a bit in the next two years. >> Thank you, Dale. Are the numbers found high in San Francisco, especially in the Sunset District? >> Well, those are the numbers that are reported to us. So if you look back at the slides, you can you can say we had a lot of data points from there. So yes, um I guess for that particular if you go back I'm not sure what slide it is. Um uh I think you have to go up more. The one that says I'm not sure I don't know what zip code for sunset district. I think it's the one they're talking about. Could you go up one more please? >> Okay. >> Right. I'm guessing one more. >> Okay. Um I can't you have to go up another slide. Oh yeah, there we go. Yeah. So 9 for one there. So obviously now that just because it has 27 you have to understand the source of it. You know we don't really know. It could be like multiple home owners. Could be one homeowner testing a bunch of times could be one apartment building and yes for that particular zip code there it happened to to be a lot of tests and so I cannot say for certain you know yes this particular area has a lot more you know than others. It's just we just happen to have more test results and yes it it does seem a little a lot are above four picaries but we're not really sure you know again we only do receive the results by zip code so I but we don't know anything beyond that. >> Okay got it. Thank you. If you have radon in your home what is the process and cost to get rid of it? >> Okay. Well, all right. I I I was gonna almost said that. I asked this unfortunately. um it's5 to $7,000. It's is average. Again, that's the average. I asked I asked about seven or eight different um mitigators and some are a little bit less than five and some can be up with about 10, but the average is 5 to 7,000. And again, what causes it? You know, cracks in your foundation is, you know, is popular. Um or if you're um more lucky, it could be like a simple fix like um you have a pipe with um say coming in from the from the subfloor, you know, from the the basement area or if you have a crawl space, you know, just sometimes use simple fix of filling in the gaps around the pipe. That's more rare, but but unfortunately there's no getting around that. It's about it's about 5 to 7,000 is the average price from what I was asked from many different sources. I don't know for San Francisco, you know, what it would be in that particular city. But, um, for your immediate area, you only have one radon company for the entire Bay Area that mitigates, but I want to emphasize this people, the 12 people do travel up and down the state. So, you're not just regulate to one person. You can call any any 12 and they'll go ahead and, you know, travel into different parts. So, you just don't have to rely on just one person. Dale, if I could interject, that's a lot higher than than a lot of states. And and and I would say that some of that has to do with a lack of competition in the state. Um so as more people are aware of radon uh and more contractors get involved um then like anything else um you know prices will come down. >> I hope so. But right now that's kind of universal. I I tried, you know, I asked every I asked eight of the 12 mitigators and that's what they're charging. So, um the other four I didn't bother to ask um but man, so you're right. Dallas is right. It's stupid other states in California, you just can't get around that there. It's it's just unfortunate. >> Thank you. What are the typical sources of radon in residences? >> You know, and it's naturally occurring element in the ground, you right, you know, from the pots of of uranium. And so, you know, it's not like a pollution source. I get that question a lot. Don't think of it as like, okay, here's a here's a source, here's a pollution. Think of it as a naturally occurring element in the ground. And there's no like one house may have, one house may not. It's just a matter of, you know, is there radon in the ground or in the soil um in that area? And it's not like, okay, here's a factory that's leaking something or or here you build on a particular, you know, yes, granite and so forth like that in the rocky areas tend to have higher concentrations, but that doesn't really mean just because you built in that area, you will have it. So, I know I I know what people looking for. Unfortunately, there's no really good answer for that. You just have to test your house for radon and it's not something that that's man-made if that's what you're trying to get at. >> Yeah. If I could interject, there there's also um there's some radium in uranium in most soils and rocks. Um and radium has a very long halflife. So it's perpetually producing more radon. Um, so the what makes it difficult or impossible to predict as far as whether one house versus the house next to it uh has a problem or doesn't have a problem depends on uh a lot of factors like you know how easily can the radon gas travel through the soil um and into the home. Uh it could be very different from two houses that are side by side. Um the reason air travels from the soil into a building is because of a pressure difference. Air always goes from a higher pressure to a lower pressure. So as warm air rises in the house and exhausts at the top uh then it can draw some replacement air in from the ground. And how much is coming in from the ground uh is not only a function of weather conditions and and so forth. It's also a function of um you know just you know how you know how tight the house is, how naturally drafty the house is, uh what sort of exhaust appliances uh exhaust appliances you particularly use uh frequently. Um so there are just so many factors that um there's just no way to know unless you test. I can I have a several charts what Dallas just said or not chart guess diagrams and and things like that I could show a different methods of how radon gets into a home. I didn't present that in here. I wonder how much time we have but I can give that to the library and like I have four or five PowerPoint slides of how radon enters a home and that might be that might help out um your understanding. >> Thank you. Um, my semifinished basement averages two to three PCI per litter, but spikes during low pressure events up to six. Is it worth mitigating? >> When you say spikes, see that's so I would like to know like how long, you know, is it a six? I mean, if it's like just one minute, if it's not, I mean, there's so many variables here. I really can't answer that question. I'd do a long a more sophisticated test maybe and see when you say spikes you they must have to to know that to know that um that question or to know the even the question itself indicates they have some type of long-term monitor already that measures during certain events. That's what it sounds like considering how bad the um radon is. Um I would look and see you know we say spikes is it like for 1 minute for 10 minutes there's too many variables to answer that question and I can't safely say well mitigate in this we say if it reaches four level I would mitigate I really cannot give you know advice especially any type of medical advice and say well I I think you're safe or think you're not safe um I would do a more long-term test like you're doing and see what the averages are but I cannot say you know oh yes I would do this or not because um I don't know enough about the situation. The the EPA guidance would would also tell you that that you know if it's just a short-term spike you know for a few hours because of a weather um situation then you know that goes up and down. If the barometer is rapidly falling because of a severe storm, radon will rapidly rise for a short period of a few hours and then come back down again as the barometer uh stabilizes. Um so, you know, what you really want to look at is what's the concentration over time. Um I if it were me, I would be more concerned as to well what's what's your average concentration during uh the different seasons? And uh in Northern California, you probably have a little more seasonal variation than you do in some parts. Um but uh you'll want to look at it in in the winter versus the summer. uh perhaps when you have the house closed up the most often um or when you're running your heat and your air um versus the spring and and the fall. And and so looking at it for um you know the course of uh uh 90 days to a year would be a a wise um decision I think if you've got that ability with the monitor. It sounds like you have. >> Thank you both. Um does the detector need to be plugged in? If so, can you use an extension cord? If not, do you need to charge it so it lasts a month? >> Um, it does need to be plugged in. Um, it it doesn't need a lot of power. Uh, but you you could use an extension cord with it. So, if you're just not close enough to an outlet, it comes with a pretty long cord, but if it if you need to put it on an extension cord, it's quite all right. >> Um, how much does the device cost? Can I buy it? Uh you can uh you can go to um eosense.io and uh we have a selection of uh different monitors for consumers. Um if you if you go to eosense.io you can see uh there's a section for uh homeowners and then there's a section for professionals. um look for the section for homeowners and you can see differenti devices there including the one uh we're using for the library lending program. >> Thank you. Um which time what time of the day considered to have highest or lowest level of radon at home? >> That'll Oh, go ahead Dale. >> Say the pressure difference. it's windy outside or I mean obviously nighttime is you know because it's colder might make it more higher but I you really there's and there's something called a stack effect. There's too many variables to say oh you know it's going to be less or high um at this time you know especially the outside weather plays a big part. Um so I mean that's a hard question to ask if you're looking for a certain I mean sometimes people people say okay I'm going to open up my windows at night. Um, >> but the problem is after you try doing that, then about 12 hours later, you know, they'll fill it takes about 12 hours or less to fill your house up back with radon again once renters are shot. Um, so there's not really an easy question here. It'll vary from house to house. We see we see a lot of um, uh, houses that have different patterns. Um, some of it's going to depend on the, you know, the climate zone you're in. Some of it's going to depend on um even with that what kind of um uh air handler you have and where it's located and whether your return duct is leaky or or fairly well sealed. Um we we see houses that uh you know maybe during the day when the furnace is off or uh or the air handler is off uh the radon concentration's lower but when it comes on it can rise. during the evening when it's running. Um, and then sometimes we see the opposite. Uh, so it it just sort of depends on the house and the systems in that house and how they're operating. >> Thank you. I see a comment instead of a question uh saying that for this particular slide, San Francisco zip codes radon results, it would be better if we um have the percentage if shown by percentage it will be a better comparison u between zip codes. Um, next question. When selling a house in San Francisco, it's radon testing required before it can be sold? >> No. So, here's the laws in California. It's almost like a don't ask, don't tell type of thing. If you don't know the radon levels, I think on page 78. I look at this. It's like a 78 guide document and it talks about this and it says, "Did you test for radon?" So if you don't know the radon levels, you don't have to disclose it. However, if you do know the radon levels, you have to disclose it. And what does know the radon levels mean? If you use a professional tester in the state of California for your radon test, then it must be disclosed. So if you can do all the self testing you want and you never have to disclose it. If you once you use a legal tester then in the h the California hazard in the real estate section I forgot which page it was on now and it's been a long time since I looked at it. It says there is a rate on is mentioned and you have to you have to disclose it. So, and how much does a test cost? $300 to $400 for a professional tester. Maybe as low as 250, but that's what they, you know, that that's what people test. That that's a to hire professional tester in California. That's what it cost. >> Okay. >> For legal purposes now. >> Got it. Thank you. Do air purifier help mitigate radon >> I you know certain certain types of filter I for the name of it um Dallas you know the answer to this one probably there's certain filter that supposedly lessens it but air purifier not really but Dallas go ahead if you want to >> yeah that's a kind of a complex question what what happens is is the radon gas itself decays that when it decays into those radon decay products, those peloniums in particular that Dale mentioned, uh those are tiny particullet um of heavy metals uh and they're also radioactive and and so the real health risk is is the we're breathing those particles uh that come from the radon and and as we do uh some of them stick to the lining of the lung tissue and then they decay because They live so short uh they're so short-lived uh they decay and release a big alpha particle directly to the lung tissue and that's what leads to the uh to the damage of the cell and the subsequent lung cancer. Um, so if you were measuring those those radioactive particles, uh, which is a little different kind of measurement, um, then you could see with a a very sophisticated filtration system, then you might pull some of those out of the air and have less of them to breathe and and lodge in your lungs. Um, but EPA just really hasn't found that to be uh um the the best way to to deal with it because it depends on so many things and filters need to be changed regularly and has to be the right kind of filter and so forth. Um now what you you can do if you have a house that's perhaps not getting enough just ventilation uh which there are houses that particularly as we made them tighter for energy efficiency that maybe just don't have a um a good ventilation rate that would meet even code um then you could uh add some additional mechanical planned ventilation um and it may dilute the radon concentration somewhat. um that can work if the concentrations are are just you know elevated a little bit. Um you have to keep in mind it takes twice the air uh ventilation uh rate to cut the concentration in half. Uh so it could get to the point where that's just uncomfortable and costly as well. So >> yeah, there's really is no like there is really is no good air filter. Yeah, it's just you cannot you cannot filter out the radon. it it doesn't like you said the small part size things like that there really is no way to have a air filter to do that and I get that question a lot and unfortunately you know like you said you can do mechanical you can do open a window maybe some something like that but you know once you shut all the windows it's going to fill back up again anyway 12 hours so there's really not much not much you can do for that the best thing you can do if you want to on the cheap and you can't hire a mitigator and you have radon on. Try looking for gaps or cracks. No, assuming you don't have like a crack in your foundation, that's not going to work. But if you have like say pipes or whatever in a sub in a say a craw a crawl basement and look for any any sources where the air might travel through, you might get lucky and some people have and stop the radon. It's not very common, but it's possible. Um, usually cracks in the foundation is the number one issue here, especially in California, unfortunately. Um, but there's no easy way, you know, via, you know, fixing it. And I can go that's a lot more different. You know, how you get rid of radon is essentially they they don't really um remove radon. They direct it from the from the from the sub slab because subs slab depressurization one exact word. They take that radon under your house and they vent it through the roof. And that's why you have to have a California contractor to do it. Um, but there's no way to like you want to try to dilute it in terms of, you know, with air filters and so forth. that's not going to work. Um, and and you could try get try the cracks. When I say fill the cracks in, you're not really all you're doing is you're stopping the airway from the the radon, you know, as it follows a pathway into the house. You're trying to reduce or stop the pathways. And you might be able to do it, you know, with to a small extent, but most of the time you can't. And that's why how radon works. Simple simple pipe, ground, then through the roof, and have a fan. And that's how the radon is is misdirected from a house. It's not really removed. >> Thank you both. Um we are at 3:58. So two more minutes, but we have four questions. Um do you guys uh have time to stay a few more minutes to finish the last four questions? Okay. Okay. Next question is, um if I'm buying a home, how should I go about learning if my future home might be exposed to radon? >> See, that's a good question. Now, it's up to depends of this homeowner. If the homeowner, I get this asked a lot, well, what it homeowner doesn't cooperate. It's up unfortunately, you know, people say, "Well, can you go by zip code, maps, and things like that?" I said, "Not really. You have to have the cooperation of the of the homeowner or the real estate agent. If there if you're willing to pay for the test and go out there, that's great. Um, there's other than that, there's really nothing if you don't own the home and you want to buy one. Um, and hopefully if you don't have the cooperation of the agent or the homeowner, there's not much you can do in California, unfortunately. Um, and it's not a good idea to go by, you know, look at zones and maps because that's not a good indicator either. So, ask the real estate agent and the homeowner if you can test for radon and see if they'll let you is my advice. Okay. >> Yeah. If you if you have a if you have a home inspector uh which would be recommended then um you know the home inspector has a opportunity to inspect the home and um radon testing is the most popular ancel area or additional service that home inspectors provide. Um I'm probably fewer of them do that in California than in other states, but um I would certainly ask my home inspector to do that. And and if it's part of that um pre-sale inspection, then basically that's, you know, your right as a buyer to to have it tested. >> Unfortunately, California, we only have 80 or 90 home inspectors in the entire state that do radon inspections um for single family homes. So they're almost like non-existent. Um, and if you want for legal purposes, you have to hire somebody. Home inspectors only handle in the state. Like I said, we only have 90 or 100 people, I 900 people, I don't think, that actually test for single family homes. So, unfortunately, there's just not that many people. >> Okay. Do refrigerators emit radon? >> No. >> Okay. >> Never heard that. That was a new one. We never heard that before. No. >> Um, since radon is so dangerous for public health and the mitigation cost is prohibitively expensive for an average homeowner, does the state consider providing subsidies for radon mitigation work? >> Unfortunately, no. >> Okay. >> We have zero. There is occasionally grants out there. They're pretty rare, but the state of California in in in as a whole, we we we do not. and there's just no money out there for it unfortunately. >> Last question. What are if any regulations for apartments with radon emissions? Is the landlord Is the landlord responsible for mitigation? >> Okay, we have two pages or three if that many of laws in California. So that would be more under if there's a if there's a health hazard that's not really a state level. It's more like okay will the county consider on you know a health hazard and do they have to do it? So that's getting like a gray area. Not really a state law. That's more like a local ordinance or a county law if there's like say say mold or whatever something that equivalent. Is there say a dangerous is it dangerous to live in the house and what are the requirements you know of of the tenant? Um that's again that's a local ordinance or or a county. The state of California has does not even um we don't talk about that at all um at our level for redon. Like I said it's only two two pages maybe two and a half pages of of statute and we deal with mostly testing and things like that. Thank you so much. Those are all the questions from the audience. Um [snorts] so with that, I want to thank um Dale and Dallas uh for helping us better understand what radon is, why it matters, and what we can do to um uh to protect our health. Uh we re truly appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today and for partnering with the library to help make radon testing more accessible to our community. Um, and I also want to thank everyone who attended today's presentation and participated with your thoughtful questions. Um, I hope that you found the information helpful and feel empowered to test your home for radon. If um, you're interested in borrowing a radon monitor, remember that you can place a hold through the library catalog. Um, and I will um, share the link to the radon monitor catalog uh, record once again in the chat. And um pull it up so you can follow the link and place a hold. Um and I will be sending out a brief survey along with Deo Slide Deck. Your feedback help us improve future programs. We'd love to hear your thought. On behalf of the library, thank you once again for joining us today. We hope to see you at another library program soon. And have a wonderful day, everyone. Bye.