Radiohead’s Ed O’Brien Opens Up About Depression, Fatigue & Childhood Trauma

This underlying depression had been going on for years. It [music] just seemed so bleak and it seemed how do I get out of that? >> Depressions, breakdowns, illnesses, the body is saying there's something not right here. >> Ed [music] O'Brien of Radiohead >> one of the architects of modern rock and rock and roll Hall of Fame [music] inductee >> has a solo record called Blue Morpho. >> The idea that the guy from Radiohead is going to complain >> [music] >> about not being happy, you know, nobody wants to hear that. >> No. And it was exactly that. It felt very indulgent. I'm not like that. I'm a rocker. But but but my body was just saying enough. I felt like I was carrying a weight [music] every day that was weighing me down. It was very very very physical. I cared so much before what people thought of me. The healing process is a process of self-love and going, "I'm [music] okay. I'm okay. I'm no longer hiding." You have to ask, [music] "Well, why was I hiding?" Well, I was hiding because >> Hey everybody, real quick before we dive in here, I wanted to take [music] a quick second to genuinely thank you for being here. The fact that you give us your time and your attention is something I do not take for granted ever. And if you're getting something out of these conversations and you haven't already, I want you to consider subscribing to the channel. It's really the single easiest way to help us out. It's free, it only takes a second, and it's actually a huge part of how we keep growing this show and bringing on the kinds of guests that make it worth your while. And according to our metrics, 67% of you watching right now aren't subscribed yet. So, if you're in that group, tap subscribe. It feels silly to ask, but it really is very helpful for us more than you know. All right. Let's get into it. It's like perfect timing that I'm sitting with you today to have this conversation. >> There were no coincidences. >> Yeah. That's right. Just synchronicities and In your case, like I'm curious >> Yeah. >> of the ways in which the album Blue Morpho mimics like the process of creating that work of art mirrors the journey that you went on with your with your mental health and your depression and and um this process of trying to make sense and and come to some place of healing and wholeness. >> Mhm. I mean it's it completely mirrors that. Um and it is a it's a transformation and creativity is a I I guess it's a transformation of sorts. And there's a start a middle and an end. And the middle is where it gets really challenging. I feel like I haven't got enough experience of this a transformation but my experience of transformation is it feels impossible without the deeply challenging aspect >> Mhm. >> that is at the heart of it. Because you know, if you take the human body if you take the the mental health you know, my my my my belief is that the the there's an innate or not my belief but I I resonate with those who say or this idea that that there's an innate human the body has an innate human intelligence. It wants to heal. You know. And that's what depressions and that's what breakdowns and that's what illnesses can be or early onset. The body is saying there's something not right here and are you going to listen to this? And you know, the the coping mechanisms and the things from childhood that we all that become part of our character and you know, we think they're us. There gets to a point your body goes your body knows it's no longer serving you. Your mind goes I'm just this is me. I'm just carrying on and and essentially I think that's what a breakdown is. Your body's saying, "Enough." >> Yeah. The universe is always knocking >> Yeah. >> trying to get our attention. >> Yeah. >> Uh but we're so captured um by our minds and by the stories that we're recycling in our brain thinking that they're ours not realizing that they were embedded before, you know, we had the ability to exercise agency over them and we're kind of all operating on some kind of loop like playing out a narrative that we didn't consciously choose. And when the universe is knocking trying to get your attention, we always have the opportunity to pay attention and make change, but for some reason it seems like the human animal uh needs to be in sufficient pain or suffering before they'll heed that knock and start making those changes. Like we can all make a different choice. But for some reason, we need to be in that place of suffering as, you know, kind of like the the crucible for our growth and for our learning and I don't know why that is, uh but if we don't pay attention, those knocks get louder and those the chaos, you know, starts to increase and the pain increases until we are willing to listen and course correct. >> Well, I think fundamentally, you know, there's there's human beings don't like being out their comfort zone. They get into a rhythm and that becomes that's how they make sense of everything. And yeah, it the only way to break that and and then that you're right. I I always say this or my personal experience is the universe gives you has you have everything around you in order to evolve and it's whether you listen or whether you're awake to it. And you know, and you're right. Exactly. If If I look back on my situation, this this underlying depression had been going on for years and I I'd sort of tried to address it with you know, start I went to see a healer in Brazil to to sort of kick it all off, but I also made things everything from dietary changes which were actually profound. You know, eliminating alcohol for a while, no drugs, um food, the kind of food I was eating cuz you know, there's the there's the link between the gut and the and the brain. Oh, I thought I'm I'm dealing with this. I'm dealing with this. It's this, but you get to you get to a certain point that toolbox that you have in order to to to help. You know, it's like that for me was that darkest moment was like everything I was doing wasn't wasn't >> Yeah. >> wasn't making a jot of difference. >> And when you're when you're in it, you don't want to hear that this is your opportunity for growth and transformation cuz it's hell. It's paralyzing. >> hell. That's right. And I think that thing of framing it within a bit like an artist or a musician or something when they frame the work they do within the arc of their life. It's the same thing with these these moments of supreme challenge and darkness. If you can frame it as this is the this is my hero's journey and I think that's why I definitely embraced this notion of the dark night of the soul which I think comes from St. John of the Cross. And this idea and you know, Dante's Inferno midway through life I lost myself in the woods. When I was able to I was just okay, when I'm like I'm not a freak. This is what people for thousands of years have been going through and this is part of the journey. This is the part of the journey of existence and I think it's super important to have that. To be able to frame it almost like you frame your life as a film sometimes in in in the sense of trying to make sense of it, you know, because on the you know, the coalface of it, it just seems so bleak and it seemed how do I get out of there? And I think for me that that was the hardest bit. It was like how long is this going to go on for? Because after 9 months I didn't feel like I'd made any shifts, but for instance, I guess if I'd had a if I lived in a community for instance, if we were in a proper community where you had your elders and your elders who'd been through that, they could go there. It's all right, you just sit with it. But I had a feeling that's what I had to do, but for me it was it the moment I was able to frame it in a in in in in a bigger journey is that the bigger picture is suddenly became more palatable. It was it was easier to deal with. >> How long had you been in the depths before you were able to make that perspective shift? >> about 6 7 months. They're Yeah, they're gradual things. It was particularly bad in the winter. And then the spring and summer comes, but you're still carrying away. You're still like what what why why did I feel heavy? Why is this exhausting? What's you know, why that why but then a bit of sunshine gives you a bit more, you know, you might go and swim in a river and you feel better and so it yeah, it was it did feel a lot like a long time and I that for me was I was fortunate cuz my wife Susie, she's kinesiologist. And she'd been through a similar sort of hers was longer through her teachings and through her her work it's like she's like you've got this. You just got to sit in the fire. Trust in the trust in the universe. >> This wasn't your first bout with depression. Uh Uh, but maybe the most acute or prolonged, like it's coinciding with lockdown, right? You tried the dietary You made lifestyle changes and helpful, but not going to solve the whole problem. You have this perspective shift where you realize maybe I can exert some agency if I just look at this as uh, a hero's journey and I'm just in it right now. What were the decisions that you made about how you were going to exercise that agency? Like what did you decide to explore in terms of modalities to claw your way out of this hole? >> I kept it pretty simple. I I mean, I'd had bits of therapy over the years, but I found that it was completely conditional on my relationship with the therapist and how much I resonated with them and I hadn't found anybody that I resonated with, so I didn't have a therapist. One thing that really helped, I'd had for years five elements acupuncture, which is the old form of acupuncture. It was pre-Maoist China. So, it's all about um, the destiny of an individual and also their relationship between heaven and earth. It's very It's Oh, wow. It's It's the old acupuncture in China. The communists didn't like it, of course, when it came in because they're all about There's no, you know, the individuality is subsumed to the >> Yeah, this is not serving the state. >> This is not serving the state. So, all the five elements practitioners got driven out to Taiwan. So, a lot of the old knowledge, all the old Daoist knowledge gets goes out to Taiwan. And there was a British man called J.R. Worsley who went over, I think, in the '50s or '60s and he brought the old form 50 He brought five elements acupuncture to the UK and actually, interestingly, to America. And it's different from TCM, traditional Chinese medicine is fabulous, you know, you put a but it's all about you put a you put a needle in there, fix your kidneys, you know, it's very it's very utilitarian. This is philosophical, it's spiritual. So, that was tremendously helpful because I would go and see him every 4 weeks and you talk for half an hour cuz he's established, so how are you? So, there's the there's a therapeutic, but what was great, it was it went more than therapy because I okay, I'm going to hit some points here and they were very beautiful names like heaven's gate or and I found it profoundly powerful. So, that helped shift um stuff. But, I just think being still I think I've been lived had such a busy life and a lot of that was as I say running from the ghosts of my past. I There was a reason I was busy. >> We had talked previously and you you had mentioned that you came across Gabor Mate's work and >> amazing. >> this epiphany that perhaps there's something in your childhood [snorts] that needs a little bit of excavation in order for you to uh >> Yeah. >> make peace with yourself. >> Yeah, I mean it is it again I was reading this book in at the start of this having fallen into this hole and this book was exactly what I needed. The universe provided me. Susie said, "I think you should read this book when the body says no." And I was reading it and you know, it's essentially he noticed in private practice that that a lot of people with autoimmune diseases and cancers and addictions where's the source of the of of this? It's all in childhood. And he said it He said it's all in childhood. And and he does that beautiful thing that somebody who's very learned, and you you know they're speaking a truth, it seems really simple. And And I was reading this, and he was giving examples of case studies. >> Mhm. >> And talking about the trauma of the child. And I was reading this, and I'm going, I said, "Well, that's like my childhood." And I'd never allowed myself to go my child I'd never allowed myself to use that word trauma, right? It feels like such a heavy word. Trauma was something that was I you know, if if like Gabor Maté, for instance, his his uh parents and his grandparents were in concentration camps. That felt to me like trauma. That's a level of hurt and trauma that So, I wasn't allowing myself. I'd go, "Well, you know, >> Mhm. >> yeah, it was a bit [ __ ] but, you know, in that classic way. But what I realized I'd done was, I think in order to cope with it, and I've got obviously like, you know, Gen X in Britain, no one None of us None of us processed anything. We had all this stuff, you should be like this, and and all this kind of some pretty nasty stuff could happen, but we weren't listened to, and that's just a That's just how it was. And so, it makes for very good humor. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons the British have a kind of quite dry and sarcastic humor, cuz >> with it. >> Well, it's that line in um uh Cri- Is it Crimes and Misdemeanors? Is it the the the the humor is tragedy plus time? >> Yeah. >> If it bends, it's If it bends, it's funny. If it breaks, it's not funny. So, >> Tragedy plus time equals comedy. >> Exactly. >> yeah. >> So, I think that's why the you know you look at Monty Python and you know that that that there'll be a lot of trauma that those childhoods and just the British way very zipped up and very you know Americans can see it you can see what we we're like as a nation. Um >> But it feels indulgent to think that if your childhood isn't you know completely insane that you would characterize it as being traumatic. You know what I mean? And so >> terrible. >> like oh come on >> Yeah, exactly. >> It wasn't really that bad. >> that bad. >> But that then prevents you from really kind of performing an autopsy on whatever emotional needs went unmet that show up later in life and create these narratives about you know It stops you from healing you are in your inner monologue and all of that. >> Yeah, it stops you from healing. And and and that's the thing it was exactly that it felt very indulgent. I'm not like that I'm a rocker but but but my body was just saying enough. And that's somebody saying you have to process this stuff because I also had a sense before this that the way I was being was sort of unsustainable. I was using profound amounts of energy to see a day through or see a project through and I knew that in the medium of music I had this innate sense music shouldn't be like a struggle. It should be a flow. >> Mhm. >> And and that's what I found subsequently about all of it. Life is a flow. When once you've once you process stuff and once you once you're becoming whole you're not using colossal amounts of energy just to to make things happen. I felt like I was carrying a weight every day that was weighing me down. It was very very very physical. I mean part of the process of this is I think it's so interesting how it manifests itself in the body. >> What's the operative story that's running in the background that is motivating you to push and be hard and have that burdened kind of relationship with the world and your work. >> I had a relentless I was never satisfied with what I'd done. So, Jared, who's the the the my five elements acupuncture uh practitioner, he's the kind of he's the top guy in the UK. He said to me when I went back to see him and I was in this period of darkness and he said he said, "Are you happy with what you've uh you've achieved?" So, we're talking 2021. And it required supreme honesty. If anyone else had asked me that in a I'd have gone to course. It's I mean, it's amazing. I'm the most blessed and I knew that. But I didn't feel it and I said to myself, "No, I don't." And he said, "Don't you think that's crazy?" I said, "Yeah, and I said, "I know it's crazy. You know, that's why when someone asked me that or or a journalist, you go, 'Yes, of course it's extraordinary.' I know that I've had the most blessed experience on my creative life. It doesn't get better. If you want to be in a band from the '90s, yeah, it doesn't get better than being in Radiohead, right? And if he'd said to my 16-year-old self, 'This is going to be what your life I really like wow. It's And it is extraordinary, but I didn't feel it and that was all self-worth and and and the way that we were just the way that people talked to you as a young child. You know, I I had a I had an epiphany in sort of three-quarters way through this. I was meditating and this thing came up in my mind and I spoken quite a lot about this. My I my report, like a lot of kids' reports, said, "Could do better." Yeah. And I realized that oh my god, that's that that those those >> Tattooed on your brain. >> Yeah. >> Those three words stopped me sitting back and going, "Wow, this is great." 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[music] For more info and to sign up, go to join.whoop.com/roll for 1 month free of Whoop. You have this animating force that's telling you you're not enough. You got to push harder. You have to always be, you know, going the extra mile in order to earn love and acceptance and and feel worthy of not just being in this band, but but but being alive and that leads to this lack of satisfaction. But not for nothing, it's got to feel at times quite heavy and burdensome to be in a band like Radiohead that is so revered. I mean, this band is so iconic. It's almost like a religion for people. And to have to carry that around is so loaded with expectations on how you're showing up to to fulfill that that that promise with the legion of of fans all over the world. I mean, how do you how do you carry that? How does that feel inside you? >> I I It's interesting uh it it's I don't feel that at all. Like my son said to me, cuz I I don't I It doesn't register with me at all that. My son said to me when we did these shows last last year, he said, "Dad, I don't think you realize how big Radiohead are." And I go, "I think you're right." I I I have >> They're pretty big. >> Yeah. And yeah, and but I've got no >> Cuz you're in it, you don't have that perspective. >> Yeah, and my life is, you know, my life is as soon as the kids were born, that becomes like if I if I That becomes a central part of my life. That's the most the most important thing in my life. And everything else gets And the Now, if I hadn't had kids and I'd stayed into that bubble and, you know, I think that would have happened, but because kids don't give a [ __ ] and and I loved being a dad. I I I think when Sal was born, when Salvador was born, I had a sense of this is my purpose. This felt more real and more powerful and deeper than anything I'd ever had. And I remember the day after he was born at home, and uh we'd set up a birthing pool in the sitting room, and and uh and the next day, so Sal, we had an enormous bed, and Sal, for the first year, slept in our bed between Susie and myself. It was so beautiful. And Susie didn't get out of bed for 14 days with this whole thing, very much very much subscribed and influenced by the whole continuum concept. And so the mother and child, Susie and Sal were asleep, and I was clearing I mean, it was just like a bomb site. I was getting rid of this huge amounts of water that had you know, it had it had all the all the stuff from a birth, and and I remember I felt like I had this moment. I was like, and I was so like, this is my job. I found my role. So, that stopped me from being in kind of Radiohead land. And I'm pretty private. I've never liked I've always felt deeply uncomfortable on the more public aspect of, you know, if we do an awards ceremony, or we go out en masse. I love the gigs. I love love love love love those shows, cuz there's a con But the the more the the other stuff, I always sort of sort of was able to So, I did that question you asked me doesn't really register with me, cuz I didn't really carry that with me. And I kind of like that, because the other thing is that I Again, I realized that at very early. I remember it was uh around the time of OK Computer, and I was a single guy, and I was at a party, and I was having a conversation with this girl, and we were getting on really well. I was like, she's lovely and she's liking me and and then she said um she said, "What do you do?" And up until then I'd been really honest. I said, "I'm in this band and you know." And I said and and in before that the previous five years you go "in radio" they go, "Oh yeah, Creep, right?" You go, "Yeah." And there was a And this is OK Computer being out for 3 months. And she said, "What do you do?" And I said, "I'm in a band." She said, "What's that?" She said, "Radiohead." And it was bizarre and it completely >> changed, yeah. >> changed the connection. And we were getting on well and I thought >> And then she freaked out. >> to freak out. Yeah, I was just like [laughter] I was just like oh I I I you see you see which I I one of the things I realized in this whole >> But it took until OK Computer for that to happen. >> Yeah, exactly. And suddenly you're on another level. But I've always one of my things is I love talking to people. I grew up. So my parents my grandparents were osteopaths. And they had their practice on the ground floor of this big Oxford house. So there were there were five rooms and there was a big waiting room with lots of patients waiting to be treated. I would just wander down as a toddler, 2-year-old, and just talk to people, old, young. So for for I've always loved I've always been interested in other people and and and just talking to people. So you have to the Radiohead stuff has to be worn lightly if you're going to make connections to people. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in I don't know. I'm I I I I like I'm interested in people. I'm you know. >> Yeah. What's interesting to me about that is you know, knowing you a little bit from the time we spent in Austin there's a healthy part to that. This idea like I'm not comfortable with all the hullabaloo. Like I know what my priorities are. I understand what's really important. But the flip side of that coin is is motivated by something different. Like, there is a discomfort uh within you around worthiness. And, you know, we talked about this last time like, you're very comfortable kind of being in the background in Radiohead. Like, you create the soundscapes. You're literally responsible for the sound that we identify as being Radiohead. But, your face is not as recognizable because you're not fronting the band. You're kind of in the back playing around with wires and plugging things in and >> working pedals and whatever it is that you do. >> And, this mental health journey that you've been on and this album that you just released, this hero's journey, isn't just about depression. It's about self-love and honoring your own artistic voice to get in front >> Yeah. >> more than you ever have and use your voice and be comfortable with that. Like, there is a very beautiful self-reverence in this work where you're honoring yourself maybe for the first time as an as an artist. And that is the consequence of this mental health hero's journey that you've been on, that you can be in the fullness of your creative expression. >> Yeah, I mean, it it's the process of it. It's interesting cuz it's I'm no longer hiding. I mean, it's that it's that thing and why was I You have to ask yourself, why was I hiding? Well, I was hiding because I had huge lack of self-worth, you know, and by the way, I you know, we were all responsible for the sound. It's really lovely of you to say that. I mean, I definitely played a part in that, but it it was a it was a collective thing. But, I I didn't feel comfortable being front and center and I I guess I was always hiding. And I think that thing that started in my childhood in that that sort of quite scary environment as a child. You know, is if you don't if you don't put your head above the parapet, you're not going to get hurt. >> Mhm. >> But what's so amazing about all of this? I mean, I essentially say that that that the healing journey is a journey of the truth is a journey of truth, right? And the truth sets you free. So, what I've found in this whole process, so you know, like the previous record I did solo, I was racked with like, can I do this? Body but I was deeply uncomfortable being that being that person on point. So, what do I do? I go out under my initials EOB. >> Yeah, you wouldn't even put your full name on it. >> Says everything. >> Like, you're kind of but it's a step. >> It's a step. >> You made a solo album, but you're still too uncomfortable to actually attach your name to it. >> But it's that thing, the truth sets you free and you you you I've been saying, I'm not fully there, but I'm definitely on the journey. I really don't care anymore because I cared so much before what people thought of me because I guess I wanted to be liked and loved. Why does somebody want to be liked and loved? Because they feel that there was a deficit of that there's a hole there. You know, it's a classic journey, right? So, once you learn about once you go to that dark place and the healing process is as you said is a process of self-love and going, I'm okay. I'm okay. You know, and then you feel it and then of course for me my connection with spirit for want of a better word, that's the thing that makes everything else I can handle anything in a way. I don't care what people think of me now. You know, that feeling that I have and I I think very much like Thoreau, you know, his writings and Walden that that when I'm in nature, that's my you know, when we're here. And if you were to leave me here all day and I'm wandering around and I've got a cup of tea and I can make some tea, good tea and hit hear the birds and see the see the creatures and you can say anything to me now and it's going to brush off me whereas before I'd be rocked by it but but it's that connection with spirit which is at the center now which is anchored in there. And that's the thing that I try to do on a daily basis to maintain that. If I don't have that center, that's the thing that knocks me and I do start caring. But that is the key thing and that was the thing that came to me in this dark night of the soul. It's like a you know, people use that beautiful word grace and and I can't explain it because I'm it's quite hard to explain for those who you know, I come from like I always say I come from Oxford which is one of the most cerebral places on the planet. They threw out spirits and God when they threw out religion and I understand the the casting aside of religion because it's you know, there are beautiful aspects of it but there's also controlling people which is and and the you know, but that thing is so part of my life now and has been and and and I think I've been seeking it for a long time like I I've been meditating for 20 years. I call myself the mongrel meditator. I taught myself and for years I just would turn up on the mat and just just be quiet and but now it feels different. It's a different level and that's the thing. I think it's that thing that when when you really look at the when I really looked at the the So, how does it all fit together? What are the What are What happens first? I think that thing of that dark night of the soul forces you to look at your fears and sit at your fears, really find out what it is that's put you in this place and then you sit and you're not running away from it and that that each day it gets easier to sit with them. And then you find stillness, and in that stillness comes grace, comes spirit. And so it's it's it's quite a tricky thing to talk about, but that's my truth. That's what I feel. And I think I don't know if you've experienced that form of grace. Have you Is that something that >> Yeah, I think that >> on your journey? >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Uh I think a lot of it has to do with again, going back to uh you know, the story that we tell ourselves about what it is. Like, we have words for these things. You're having a mental health crisis, you know? And when you use violent word choices like that, it's going to compel you to think that there's something bad or wrong. >> Mhm. >> And when you experience some degree of discomfort, your first impulse is how do I change this? How do I get out of this? It's not supposed to be this way. And what you're talking about is being okay with the discomfort. Like, the stillness is acceptance and surrender. And when you're attached to whatever you're going through changing, you're actually interfering with the process that actually is going to get you to change and transform, which is stopping everything, being okay with where you're at, relinquishing your impulse to control, letting go of um your discomfort with the uncertainty of it all and what it means, and allowing it to be what it is. Like, it's basically accepting reality. And in your case, you go out to Wales. This is your special place. And this very primal, untouched part of the world becomes an antenna to spirit that allows you to inhabit a deeper sense of stillness that brings the healing that you need so that you can detatch from outcomes, focus on process, and the more in alignment you become, the easier it is for you to speak your truth and get in front of the microphone and create art that is actually a reflection of who you truly are rather than trying to make something that you think people want from you or that you should be doing because of your station in life. How's that for my big my big monologue on how to be Brian? >> As you were just saying that I'm like, you are so coherent and eloquent on this. I mean, there's a reason you're writing books and there's a reason you did this podcast. I'm still in that phase. It's funny as you said that cuz when you say it's like being with a teacher who you know, you're talking about serene it's like I'm still in that phase and I'm kind of I haven't pieced it all together. It's still bits like that and I can see bits and I'm sort of riffing on it. >> This is This is my autopsy. >> But it's but what you're saying is presumably that's also that's that's a journey. That's a very common journey. >> I mean, nobody wants to get still and stop and you know, sit in their discomfort. We want to go out in the world and make people like us and notice us and do things and have relationships, etc. And we just we just get in our own way constantly. >> so interesting I found I had several mantras and one of them was I do this thing where I am I had every day part of my ritual was you know, I meditate, then I'd go outside with a pot of tea. Beautiful. Pai Mu Tan tea, a white tea. Rain or shine, any season, and I'd listen to the birds and then I've got my book and I'd read my just my intentions and one of them was was this thing and you mentioned it about nobody wants uncertainty. It's one of my mantras is like that's the place to be. I know creatively that's the place to be, uncertainty, because because uncertainty is in creativity, that's the place where you do your best work. You're not relying on what's gone before or what you know. You're kind of out of your comfort zone. And I think that's the same thing in life because what I love about and I now I embrace uncertainty. Or I know I I know that it's really good for me because that's the place that's free of past conditioning. You know, that's the place where everything that your mind has learned is the accumulation of a lifetime's worth of experiences. In that place of uncertainty, that disappears and you're like, "Oh [ __ ] where am I?" But that's where transformation happens, you know? And I And And it is a funny thing. It's It's a I wonder if that's part of the journey. That's the the journey of of the soul. The evolution is the is that You know, you're right. When we're in a more not infantile space, but I wouldn't say infant cuz that wouldn't be fair, but but certainly young adults, we seek comfort and we seek security. We don't trust in the universe. You know, the world tells us it's brutish and it's ugly and and our system kind of encourages us that as well. But when you go through this other side and you you go through these breakthroughs, it's learning more to let go and trusting and then you go, "Okay, that I I like being in this place of uncertainty." I feel like right now I'm in a really big moment of uncertainty. >> But uncertainty is reality. >> Yes, exactly. >> that things are more certain than they are and we make most of our life decisions trying to control external circumstances to give us a greater sense of certainty. I think I brought this up in in the panel that we did, but there's a great psychiatrist called Phil Stutz. He's been on the show a couple times and his whole thing uh he treats a lot of very successful um people here in town who are terminally dissatisfied. And his whole thing on on what's driving this degree of unhappiness and dissatisfaction is that they deny three unavoidable truths of life. Pain, uncertainty, and the need for constant work. Meaning we're all deluded into this idea that if we can accumulate enough and have enough stature and and and prestige, etc. that we will be able to transcend these truths. That we will arrive at a place where we won't have to deal with pain anymore. Everything's locked down. There'll be no more uncertainty, and we won't really have to work on ourselves anymore. And and this is just driving all of our suffering. And to your point uncertainty is a big one and and maybe the most nuanced one because truly everything is uncertain. We just do not know, and we think we do and we have these control impulses. But as an artist there's no room for discovery if you go into the studio or approach whatever it is you're trying to express locked into some idea of what it's going to be or should be. And I know cuz I've heard you talk about this with Blue Morpho going in without an agenda and and just paying attention and opening up your antenna for something to come in is how this whole thing happened by not being attached to what it should be or could be and allowing it to be what it wanted to be. >> Yeah, exactly. And then and you know, the less I sort of try to control it or move it the more that the richer it got that that and the more yeah, kind of I felt the more magnificent it got cuz it would didn't feel like me and my only job is my job is my intuition to being honest with that and going this feels good or that I'm not sure that's very good. And that's really important because you you're not like a rudderless ship. You're like you're like in the river but you're just gently going oh, that feels good and you're not you can't force anything. It's happening but it needs you to be present and it needs you to be true to what you're feeling. And that the truth that you know, you can so that you know, in creativity you can you can do those things where you can work on something all day. But you've got to also have the guts to go I'm not really feeling this. Yeah. You can see you know, we all have that thing we put a lot of effort into stuff and and but that's okay, right? That's >> you know when you've stumbled upon an idea a progression of sounds that is working? Is it just it stays with you? It's intuition? Like how do you know when oh, I need to go back and develop that versus like eh >> It's so interesting. One of the things I I I I feel like I'm a real novice to songwriting. So, I'm kind of speaking with I'm speaking about it in a way that it's still kind of >> The guy in Radiohead. >> Well, but the songwriting aspect that comes that that that how these songs come about that was the domain of Tom. >> Yeah. >> You know, Tom would get to the and he would bring us the songs in rehearsal not in the early days and then the studio and then we might flesh them out and arrange them by the and write our own parts, but we weren't involved with very very very rarely very rarely involved in the actual first shoots of that song. That was him on his own. And then he might work with Johnny or something, but for me, I hadn't experienced that and I've really been experiencing like that the last 12 years. So I still feel like I'm it's early days in that. But what's what I found that I mean, I find it in I find it just extraordinary is that sometimes you get this thing and essentially music is it's mathematical intervals and their patterns and sometimes they're repeated. I mean, that's essentially what it is, but sometimes that that musical motif can come out and in that moment, you suddenly feel this excitement cuz you can feel like the universe of this song. You don't know all the detail, but you suddenly go, "Oh, wow." And there's something about the emotion that comes with it, but it's also you feel the potential of what this thing a track that doesn't have that you kind of get meh. You don't feel that. It's just like it comes out and you go, "Okay." But the really good ones, they it's it's like a it is it's like a an acorn seed an acorn. In that seed, you have the potential of this magnificent tree that can grow and be that thing. It the potential of that growth is all in there from that seed. 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Based upon what you just said, I think I can predict how you feel about the advent of AI in music and in songwriting. >> Yeah. >> Say your piece on that. >> I mean, I really worry about AI in a general terms because I think it's another one of those Live it spending so much time in the countryside. I I was originally a country boy and then lived in a city in London for 30 years and Manchester and then country boy again. And what you realize when you live in a city is that human beings go around and they go, "Wow, look at these beautiful buildings and these things that we've created." It's all about human beings enamored with their own creativity and their own cleverness. Whereas if in the countryside, you look at a tree and you go, "You look at those leaves. You look at the perfection of that branch." And you go, "Great artists can maybe match that beauty and that that that thing and they can represent that." That's where real beauty resides. And uh I feel the same way with AI. I feel like I see these very, very blinkered people who are enamored with AI and its potential and they're using all sorts of excuses. Like they always pull out the medical one. They always go, "It's going to revolutionize medicine." But, you know, what do they let in through the back door? And so, in terms of creativity, there's no doubt that it will have a huge effect on the music industry. And what it will probably There's always been an aspect of of music that has has had a the mass appeal. Certainly, sort of what I call sort of plastic pop music. >> Mhm. >> I think that's where AI will make the biggest inroads, which is a shame because also I grew up in an era of pop music where the you know, the the the pop artists were people like Madonna and George Michael and you know, not that I was huge fans of Madonna, but brilliant pop star and a and a great singer and a great song writer. All these things. I think the plastic that thing I think the artistry of you know, AI doesn't have a soul yet. And in my understanding of spirit, how can it have a soul? I resonate with Buddhism. You know, very much so. I'm not a practicing Buddhist, but the the whole idea we've had many, many lives. We have a thing called a soul which inhabits our physical body. And when we're born, that soul enters the physical body. And when we die, it leaves. And then it goes up and has another lifetime. A machine can't have a soul. Um it can have a it's like a mind. It can have a supreme intelligence. And I I just think great music has to have soul. All my favorite music, you know, they they come from It's not just It's not just mathematics. It's There is a There's a huge aspect of it that is mathematics. And that's what it tries to do, but it's the energy and it's the love and it's the emotion and whatever it is that accompanies it that can elevate and make music what it is. >> Mhm. When you were going through it, what role did music play in you navigating this depression? >> I stopped listening to music and it was more about the form, the type of music. And it was really about the type of music I guess if you want that I traditionally come from, I guess alternative music and and I think that there was I just had enough and it felt like I was full. That well was full. I never need to hear this music again. >> [snorts] >> And then at that stage I was just it was that first lockdown and I was just listening to birdsong. The birds were alive, they were happy, they felt It felt like they were celebrating that human beings have finally stopped and they could breathe and sing their songs that So I was really enamored by birdsong and the sounds of nature. I couldn't listen to And then what happens, I start It's like a It's like It's like ground zero. And then you just feed and I started feeding um There's an album called Spirit of Eden by Talk Talk, which is an extraordinary record. So that was one of the things that I bought that on vinyl in in lockdown and that's that's sort of started That was That really resonated. And then I realized what I was being drawn to was sort of music that felt like it didn't have the traditional form or the kind of form that I was used to I because I was sort of letting go, the music had to represent that. I didn't want to hear something with a very distinct arrangement like a verse, chorus, verse, chorus. That had no interest in for me at all. I felt bored by it. It felt like But I said, "How do I But at the same time, I was playing my guitar in a very unformless way, but just little musical motifs. And the the the thing was as as the days went by and I started to listen to I started to listen to more classical music and more jazz music. So, what was coming in was not formless music, but but music that I couldn't cuz I didn't have the musical brainpower, if you like, to go with the form is like that. It felt like it was more open-ended. I could understand the movement. >> How can I make sounds that reflect this emotional state that I'm experiencing? >> Yeah. Yeah, and it had to be free of any kind of construction. It had to be without form, but it couldn't be It had to have some form. It had to have melody. It had to have a journey through it. You know, it It couldn't be sort of gratuitously You know, there has to be something that you latch onto for a listener. So, I was just trying to find that and that again was I mean, it was so interesting. I mean, the track Blue Morpho when the first thing that went down on that was an acoustic guitar track. So, the it It's so interesting. I hadn't thought of this, but I guess that maybe This is the first time I've realized this. That maybe the moment where the record was suddenly this is how it is. So, it was a beautiful hot summer 2022 in the studio in Wales. We had the windows up. Beautiful. It's a Georgian house, so these big windows and sash windows. We had a microphone outside here for the birdsong, cuz we were going to record some of this birdsong. >> Yeah, which is how that song opens. >> Exactly. And then I had I had these series of little mo- musical motifs. And I had an idea for like we'll go from that section to that section, which is Blue Morpho, but I didn't know how they run. And certainly at the top of the song, I didn't know how to I didn't know how we would step into this song. And so I just sort of let go, and I had my acoustic guitar, and I just played it. And I thought it was a kind of a rough thing. And that version that guitar is the guitar that is on Blue Morpho, and that that was the arrangement. Now, I didn't know what I was doing. I was just letting go. >> Yeah. >> And that was and that sort of gave me confidence, but that was also underpinned, and it was and it's that thing like I'm saying the more I'm letting go. And that was being in a place of uncertainty, but not before where uncertainty was something that I might be frightened of or paralyzed by. It was just a It's embracing. It's like I don't know what I'm doing. Let's just You know, just I don't I don't know what I'm doing. I don't >> That's the discovery part. That's the That's the comfort with uncertainty that gives birth to something new that you couldn't have predicted if you were trying to manage it, you know. >> Exactly. And that's the beauty of what I do. And that's why for me now, it is so intoxicating. It's so like, "Oh my god, I want to do this more." because the more I lean into this uncertainty, >> Well, that's where the [ __ ] is. >> Yeah, exactly. That's where it is. >> The The record, you're going on this journey. It opens with incantations. It's you know it's a it's it's dark and it's it's kind of pounding and you're having this visceral experience and then Blue Morpho, you hear the birds, you realize there's light at the end of the tunnel. Like it's going to be okay. You're telling this story and in listening to it and listening to the album again and again like you could be a film composer. Like there's a there's a lot of like film composition DNA built into this record. Have you thought about that? I mean I know Johnny's got that >> Johnny's got that down. >> [laughter] >> He's the king. >> He's he's figured that one out. >> He's figured out. And he's so good at that because he's also got all the musical chops. He's got you know he can score stuff. He writes I can't write music. Um it's interesting. Yeah, I mean you know music for me is very visual when I connect with music it's very visual. I like I mean I've always loved uh film music. Every you know I think one of the earliest um albums my parents had was Midnight Cowboy. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh the Jon Voight Dustin Hoffman great soundtrack. Uh obviously everybody's talking the Fred Neil song Nelson sang it but also the soundtrack by John Barry. But I loved Ennio Morricone. Loved the sound I mean one of my favorite films but I I had the album before I ever I had the album for 3 years before I ever saw the film was Wim Wenders Paris Texas the Ry Cooder soundtrack. I loved that and I would listen in my bedroom in West Oxford and dream about deserts in West Texas you know. >> So this is I'm seeing your future. I think I think yeah you're lighting up talking about this. I think there's something there for you. >> Yeah, I mean I'm intrigued. I just I just there's a discipline involved there. And I don't know whether I can I would be able to, like, um shackle my my letting go with the discipline of making a record, you know. I'm I'm still at a stage and I had a meeting with a music supervisor here in LA. And he's great and he was saying similar things. And I said to myself, I want to do another album first. I want to I feel like I'm I just love making my own movies, if you like, and I You know, my >> Which you did with this album. >> Well, my ideal is that I make the music and then someone else makes the movie. That's what would be really cool. I mean, I'd love to be able to do >> Who's going to make the movie to my album? Yeah. >> Yeah, who's going to make the movie to my album? And if if there's anyone out there who, you know, and I I think it's interesting there are I think it's also with, you know, look at my my friend my my sort of bestie Garth who who's a film director and done all the Sing movies and written them in in animation, but made Son of Rambow. He started off in making, you know, videos as did David Fincher and, you know, but there are people like, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson who Johnny works with, who who Well, he's made videos for Tom. I think directors also that there's a niche there that they quite like that they get these little five, six minute songs. So, whether I have the musical rigor and capacity to do that thing, music soundtracks, I don't know. I definitely would like to do it someday, but I don't feel I'm ready for it now. I want to I want to just explore I want to just make my own music at the moment. >> You referred uh your depression as a a dark night of the soul or this hero's journey. There's lots of um phrases that you can kind of attach to what it's like to be in that state of of confusion and despair. The the sort of perpetually dissatisfied caterpillar that goes into the chrysalis and emerges as the blue morpho butterfly. What are the lessons that you have learned from going through this process that you want people to understand so that they can engage with their own challenges similarly. Like what is the wisdom that you've come out of these experiences? >> Yeah, it's okay. This is a well-worn journey and I love this expression that you Americans have. You've got this. You really have got this. If you can lean into it and you know, obviously there are various versions of it and I'm not talking about a version whereby I'm about to take my own life. Mine was not as acute as that. So, that's a whole other level. You need you know, you but for me, I'm so thankful for having gone through that journey. I am I would go that go through that again and because when you come out the other side and the transformation and the evolution and the gains that are to be had are so extraordinary. And how I feel now and the clarity that I have and I haven't had depression since then. I feel like I'm a whole. As you can tell, I never I don't have like you you need this this this. I'm I'm that very digress it it's it's okay and actually again back to my original thing, if you can frame what you're going through as part of the arc of your journey as this is just a moment. This too shall pass. But the thing that you will grow from this will be extraordinary and the clarity that you'll have and the peace that you'll find. You will look back on that time and even though you're in the middle of it and it's supremely uncomfortable, you look back and you go I got through this. I held on. You know, some days it's one foot in front of the other. Other days it's just literally holding on. >> It's interesting that we have the choice to basically perceive anything that happens to us as an opportunity for growth and transformation. >> Yeah. >> But if you're in that deep state of despair or, you know, just in the dark to say to that person like this too shall pass or, you know, you're going to look back on this and be grateful and you're going to learn so much. That's very difficult, right? Like Like is there like anything that you've learned that you can share with somebody who is in that state to help them avoid a little bit of unnecessary suffering? >> don't think you just sit there and wait for it to pass. I think there has to be you have to try and figure out what it is. And that can be a multitude of things, right? Like I said, like I went through the whole thing. It can be you know, if if I if I were to eat a diet of junk food and take loads of drugs and just spend my time on my phone on social media, I'd be in a terrible place. So, you know, like you said, lifestyle things are huge. And in fact in many ways that I think those thinking about it, those things are super helpful. Lifestyle changes are super helpful in the in the moment to propel you forward out of that. But the other thing is it would as I keep as I sort of alluded to is the thing that I actually tell friends when they're going through this then, you know, I've had friends going through it. The I guess the best advice that I said learn to meditate. That's a practical thing, but there's something in that that it's you're being proactive. But you're allowing the healing to happen because, you know, what you're reaching is a place of so I mean, I I truly believe that every child on this planet should be taught at school the ability mindfulness and meditation as a coping mechanism because so much of it is about that. >> 100%. I feel like you would you would do well living out of Malibu. You're kind of like this you're a wellness influencer, Ed. You know, like you you you grew up with osteopaths as parents. >> Yeah. >> Uh you're into acupuncture, meditation, healthy eating, immersion in nature, you know, Buddhism, past life like you're just I mean, >> Yeah, I know. I'm I'm a I'm a walking flipping Malibu cliche. >> Like, you know, you're an easy fit out here. How does that work in the in the UK? Is this still um these novel ideas >> Yeah, I mean, I've >> in the community of friends? >> funny. I think I've always resonated with the West Coast spirit. I've always I mean, what I've loved about California and out here is this openness. And I think a lot of people out here are seeking. And I'm a seeker. >> Yeah. >> And I've loved the openness like, oh, I'm going to try that. My grandmother was American American, so I came over to America from you know, from age 13. And I loved that sense of you can do this. You've got this. >> Mhm. >> That openness. And whereas Britain is all about, oh, you can't do that, mate. Oh, no. What are you going to do that? No, no. You know, and I've loved that thing that openness so embracing different things. So, I'd try that. And that's my journey. My journey is not like I don't have some guru. I haven't lived in a community like Malibu. And so, oh, you need to do this. Mine is uh entirely uh it it it it is just experience experiential. I've got I've tried that. And things come on my path and I've tried lots of things that don't work. Where I've come to is just these are things I figured out for myself. And and and you know, you're not going to do meditation and have a meditative practice unless there's something there cuz it's it's a commitment. Same thing with giving up booze. If that doesn't work and live and eating well if if that makes you that doesn't change how you feel you what's the point of investing that? I'll go back cuz getting drunk was great. You know, so well it wasn't but um Yeah, so Britain wasn't like that but it's it's the dial is shifting another generation. I was definitely um you know, I went to see a healer 25 years ago and my wife and I had to keep it pretty quiet. I I haven't even ever told my father cuz my father is an osteopath and he goes like it's all nonsense. I haven't even told him. He doesn't know. >> [laughter] >> Cuz I again I didn't have the courage to go like well, you know, [ __ ] you. I went and it was good and you know, whereas I come to I come to California they go oh yeah, which healer did you see? Oh yeah, we saw him. You need to see that one or was that the one that Oprah went to see? Yeah, so it I've I what is it about this place? You you you I mean you're on the Atlantic you you're on the Pacific rather. You know, you've got Asia which a lot of this stuff has come from Asia, right? You know, you've you've you've had them and I mean I guess that's what it is. Your influence from Asia is far stronger cuz you're nearer and certainly over the top from Seattle all the way down. You've had this influence of Asia from the from the Pacific whereas we haven't had that. We're really on the other side of the world but we gradually in the 60s stuff came through but there's something about this land here, isn't there? There's something about I always used to find this you know, on tour in America. You'd arrive and you should come from the the north from playing in Oregon. And the moment you crossed into California, there's something about the light. There's something about the energy. And that supports seekers and that supports this thing and maybe it's an abundance of spirit in nature. Maybe I don't know. You you probably know better that >> Well, I think also Los Angeles was you know, this is historically the place of dreamers. You know, the dreamers, the people with the imagination, the artists gravitated here. Uh and there's a permissiveness. It sort of didn't it wasn't developed with a history. And so it was written outside of the like rules and structures. Uh I think it attracted people who wanted to get away from that. >> Yeah. So there you know, the free thinking thing is it's just it's just a more permissive environment for that, I think. For better or worse, you know. But on that note, you've evolved as an artist as well as a songwriter as a musician, a vocalist. We talked about uh embracing uncertainty and as you become more whole creating this this greater access to your own personal truth and how that ends up in your music. So what is the message that you have for the aspiring artist or musician out there who's trying to up-level their relationship with creativity? >> To thine own self be true. I mean, you know, be true to yourself. That is the absolute key. And you got to figure out what that is cuz I spent for years hiding my hiding. Didn't know what I really felt or didn't allow myself. I thought I should feel. It's that you've got to be supremely honest to what you to your truth. There's obviously a commercial aspect which is can get make things very confusing, but you never make music for other people. You make it for yourself, first and foremost. You cannot second-guess what people There's no idea. You have to It has to move you. I think what I realized is that you make music that you want to hear. I don't like my music feels like there's sort of a malcolm of things, and I think in a way I'm trying to make music that Yeah, that that I haven't got in my library or and so but that's How do I do that? By being true to myself. >> Yeah. Especially with AI, all we have is our perspective. >> Yeah. >> And our experience and our >> all different. We're all unique, and that's what makes it so amazing, and it's you know, and it It's It can be scary cuz, you know, nobody likes to be judged. You know? But it's all right. It's just There's lots of music out there. >> And then your album just came out. So, what did Do you read reviews? Do you like You don't You don't care. >> read a review since OK Computer, since April 1997. Cuz it They were so good. And I realized there was this whole thing that reviews can create sort of Well, at that time they were able to create heaven or hell. You know, a bad review was horrific, and a good review, oh, brilliant. That's not a healthy state of mind. And then you realize, of course, the review is that's their unique filter, how are they feeling that day, how do they feel about you as an artist? Is that tainted by It's like I I I It's really liberating not reading what people write about you cuz, again, it's that thing back to what I said you You then don't walk around with uh this notion that you're either important or you're not important. You just you just be. That's the That's the essence. Just be. Just do it. >> So, the band's getting back together again. Radiohead, you guys are touring. >> Yeah, we did we did it Well, it's not like we're getting back together again, but we did a tour, yeah. >> Yeah. >> How is the health of Radiohead? How has your role in that band evolved as a result of stepping out on your own? Like how has that worked? >> changed at all. I mean, I think it's just what was nice about it was it feels very democratic. Uh which is kind of its strength. I felt like with that touring I just had an enormous sense of gratitude because in so many ways that to be doing this with my brothers and >> Mhm. >> I say my brothers, but I it does feel like a brotherhood. It's that kind of depth >> You have that. >> You know, like you do in families, you have you know, when you serve up a meal you know your you know your sister doesn't like ketchup. You don't you know, and you know she doesn't Likewise, all these these bits of intimate knowledge I have the same thing with these guys without even reason. I know that I don't know that Colin doesn't like coleslaw. >> Yeah. >> But he you know, and but see you have all this incredibly detailed it's just there cuz you've grown up together. Uh so it just again, it feels really simple. It's just really lovely to be playing these these these songs these these lovely songs with people who are you've had this long journey with who are supreme musicians really good people at heart and yeah, I mean, that's what And and how lucky are we that people want to come and see it and these songs move people and um And And I think that's the thing when we played live, we were just we were sort of It was just It was extraordinary. It was very, very emotional and we found it very emotional and on those levels of we could sort of we've been doing this now for a while and we hadn't done it for a while. So, but we've been playing songs together for many years and they're emotional. They're deep songs and there's a beauty there. And people want to see it. I heard you uh >> say in another interview uh that you hadn't listened to a lot of the songs for a long time and then when you kind of went back and you're you're getting into the tour again, you're like, These are good songs. Like it's >> I know. >> [laughter] >> I know that sounds >> actually >> Everyone's always laughing when I said that, but that was my feeling. It was cuz when you're doing them, I think because with Radiohead, there was this sort of And again, it comes to could do better. >> Mhm. >> And I think that was the universal thing for all of us. It was We just continue. You've got to do more. You've got to get better, better, better. So, you never appreciated what you'd done. And it was so nice and going through we we didn't have any new material to to to to have to find or work on or we would just being and you go, "Wow, that song's really" And not having played them for 7, 8 years. >> Yeah. >> So, that's >> I would imagine it takes some real intentionality and conscious effort to maintain the health of all of these relationships. What is it that you and the members of the band have done to like protect the sanctity of those bonds so that you can continue to, you know, play music together so many years later. >> Well, we We haven't done any We haven't done any group therapy. >> Yeah, is it >> Which at times that would have been a good thing to do. Yeah, no and and full credit to them and I think you know, the band's inherently dysfunctional so group therapy is not a bad idea. I mean, I think what we did was we've just gone away from one another and everybody's moved forward and everybody's grown and everybody's done their own work if you like. I and I'm not saying they did therapy but it's that people have been You can see the age has been good to us in terms of fostering respect and love and and I just think at the end of that iteration of Radiohead in 2018 there were a lot of people around us and it got so big and Brian our manager sort of in the subsequent years we'd have meetings to bring it down to the five of us. And when you distill it to the five I mean that is Radiohead, you know, playing these songs that Thom has written and we add to and color and we add our own stuff but that's what it is and again it's quite simple but it's amazing how complex these things and you know, it's the classic stories of when you have a successful enterprise you can get people who attach themselves to it. >> Yeah. >> Who aren't good for that. They're not good they're not part of it. They're not good for the soul but they they're trying to make themselves important in that organization. So we we've had a bit of you know, worming out to weeding. Some culling some weeding, yeah, definitely. >> I got to get you to the airport so I'm going to let you go but it was a real treat to talk to you. Uh congrats on the album. Um you're lovely. Uh I want only good things for you and this latest expression I think it's the first in many to come of you bringing full expression to your voice and I commend you for not only enduring what you did to give birth to this work of art but by being so open to sharing what that experience was like to help normalize the experience of going through difficult times. Powerful. >> Thank you, Rich. Yeah, well, right back at you. You know, the questions that you ask are you make it easy. Yeah, it's a flow. >> Good man. Well, come back and >> Yeah, I'd love to continue the conversation. Thank you. What a place. Look at this. >> Cheers. >> Thank you. >> Thanks.