Qui permet aux forêts tropicales de rester debout? « Land Dialogue » Semaine pour le climat Londres

how to defend, protect and care for these territories, often in situations of great pressure. So it is important today when we talk about this topic to understand that governance does not begin with a formal recognition of land rights. Of course it's important, it can protect territories and allow communities to make decisions and have a legal framework. But that doesn't create governance in itself. That's not insignificant . In many places, governance systems have existed for generations, even before, long before recognition, legal recognition. We will hear practical and real-life examples. Today we're going to talk about meetings and community rules. Collective decision-making also demonstrates leadership between generations. Monitoring, responses, and forest shaping by communities. This also shows how conflicts are resolved and how decisions are made over time. These connections are at the heart of our discussions today. Therefore, whether communities continue to manage this practice depends on the processes proposed in our current reforms. What is important is that what we do within communities and in spaces we do not see is responsible for the forests and for the proper maintenance and longevity of forests and territories. to prepare ourselves for this discussion. We often ask ourselves what communities need to protect forests. But perhaps a possible question for us is what to do to support the governance system that is already doing this work of protecting forests? How can we improve this system to increase the benefits we have already experienced? Today we will hear experiences from Congo, Asia, the South, and the Amazon. And I hope this conversation will give us the opportunity to talk about the proper maintenance of forests. But not only that, it's also important to listen carefully to the people who make these decisions every day and who have experienced everything I've just described. Thank you for being here today and for your interest in this conversation, and thank you for listening to the examples of this and that every day. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Marc. Thank you for reminding us that when we talk about tropical forests, there are many elements. We have indigenous, African, and African-descendant communities who have maintained these forests that have protected them without support, without legal recognition, and often in situations of high pressure. So what can we learn from them? This is not a situation where there is no governance, it's just that we haven't understood this governance. So I'm going to explain how today's session will unfold . This is going to be a little different from most of the roundtables you've attended before. We are going to practice what is called a fishball dialogue. Do you know what this is? Have you done it before? a few, some women. All right. GOOD. So for those who don't know, the idea is the limits and distances between the public and the speakers, we don't really want to have them, to have these limits. We want to have speakers who sit in a circle in the center of the room, surrounded by you, the audience. And the idea is that you can follow the conversation closely, a bit like observing fish in a bowl. Hence the title fish ball dialogue or dialogue in a jar. But today we will have the speakers on stage, but the idea remains the same. We will have three parts depending on the time available, and we will change the speakers with each part. And then I'm going to ask people in the room to come and contribute as we go along . I hope I explained it clearly. So for the first part, we're going to have a traditional format. We will have the three speakers on stage who will share stories from their territory where they work and then I will have questions for them and for her. Next, they will sit down and then for the second part, we will have other speakers, the leaders of the territories. We have already invited several territorial organizations to share their thoughts on what we have heard. There are three seats. So there will always be a free seat so that someone can come, someone who is a leader of the territories as well. And then we also want to hear from people who support these organizations, the funders who will once again uh share their thoughts and then I will also share the thoughts of those who are online. Is that clear? up to this point. So there will be some movement. It might be a little chaotic, but we'll try to do things right. And then I also wanted to get a better idea of ​​who is there, who works directly with or for indigenous or local communities in the forestry sector. raising hand, someone who is well-off or has experience in the field of finance or investment. Is there anyone capable of directing capital? GOOD. And who here comes from the world of politics, administration, or activism? Not many, but there are some nonetheless. And who is new here to explore the theme of territorial governance? Welcome, you are most welcome. Well then, it's a very good mix, a very rich mix. That's exactly what this discussion needs. So, I'm going to start our discussion entitled "Who preserves tropical forests?" By asking this question, we are really trying to find out who manages these forests on a daily basis, who makes the decisions that concern them, and what allows decisions made by indigenous peoples, people of African descent, and communities on the territories to prevail against external pressures. So, allow me to introduce the speakers in alphabetical order to do things properly. Professor Alphonse Mindo, director of Tropenbos DRC, a position he has held since 2017. Thank you for joining us on stage. Al has been a human rights activist since the early 90s and has over 30 years of experience in national and international NGOs. Next, we have Patricia Suarez Torres, who is an advisor to the National Organization of Indigenous Peoples of the Colombian Amazon, who came as Opiac. She is a prominent figure and advocate for human rights and territorial rights. She is from the indigenous Muroui people of the Amazon department in Colombia. And then Roua Somolingi, Secretary General of the Alliance of Indigenous Peoples of the Aman Archipelago. Roka comes from the indigenous Toraya group of Suawess in Indonesia. So my first question is addressed to the three speakers. You will have 4 minutes to answer. I would like you all to give us a picture of what forest governance looks like on the ground where you are. Can you tell us an anecdote from your territory or the territories your organizations support that shows us who really makes the decisions, the big decisions when an important decision has to be made concerning the forest, who is around the table and how you manage to get everyone to agree? Patricia, would you like to begin? Hello everyone. Thank you very much for this invitation. I am delighted to participate in this space - I greet you from the 64 indigenous peoples who live in the Colombian Amazon. I am delighted to be here with you. In my community, we say that there are people who are born to make a contribution through words. And there are others who do it, who were born to do it, to do something. And I was born to do, to act. This is what I do in the territory because those who were born to act are there in the spaces to share the word and the need to have this link and to connect with the Amazon. Unfortunately Margrette has already said everything I wanted to say, but oh well, it shows how important it is. It reminds us that we are all connected no matter where we come from. It is also important to say that governance is nothing new for indigenous peoples in the Amazon. We have always been there. We have always had our own governance systems. Imagine in the regions, the indigenous peoples in the Colombian Amazon, there are traditional authorities, there are elders who have a system of governance and knowledge in progress. And that is why he protects the forests. And we are here to share these experiences and this knowledge with you. I would also like to say that this system of governance and ours has resulted in a green Colombian Amazon. If you look at the map, 93% of the territory is jungle. It is the most protected place in Colombia. And what we are doing thanks to your support is protecting 97 million hectares that are protected by indigenous peoples. Regarding the question of who makes the decisions, we don't. It is not one person who makes the decisions, it is the result of a process of several round tables to say that were established from a cultural point of view, a cultural context and also a political one. And now the decisions that were made by the indigenous peoples in the Amazon have worked well. And the result is that we have a forest, a green forest. We have roles authorized by the authorities. We had a committee of wisdom which has specific roles, it also has administrative roles. And thanks to this, we have this governance system in place and we can reach decisions that contribute to the proper maintenance of forests. So, the story I wanted to share with you today isn't really a story, but it's just what we do in several territories in the Amazon. We organize a dance in the communities and it's a whole process. There are operations to be carried out. There are steps to be followed that include all members of the community, all family members, and other communities as well. Each person plays an important role in ensuring that this dance is performed. And it's not just something that is important in the moment, it's something that is important even before the dance. It's a bit like planting silences and then of course it blooms and the flower is the dance. So I see that I don't have much time but just to share a message with you, I wrote it because I didn't want to forget it. Forests still exist because indigenous peoples exist. We have governance and knowledge systems. If the world wants to protect forests, the world must protect indigenous peoples and our knowledge and governance systems and ensure that our forests are alive. Thank you. Thank you, Patricia. I have another question. Thank you very much for this answer, but I would like to hear more about this dance, but perhaps we can talk about it during the coffee break. Um, I'd like to know more about Indigenous territorial entities. If I understand correctly, Colombia has given formal recognition to this indigenous territorial entity . Does this change anything ? Is there more power involved, or is this just an administrative milestone? You have 4 minutes to answer the question. All right. Alright. So this second question gives me the opportunity to share more with you. It's something, it's a theme we discussed last year, I remember when there was this recognition that was made by a law, but it didn't start there. It was a decree, but we fought for many years to have this entity, this status of indigenous territorial entity, and this despite the fact that in the 1991 Constitution in Colombia, there are departments of community departments and indigenous territorial entities (ETA), but it has not been implemented. For years we fought for this and in 2018 we were able to get this decree decree decree 60002, but it depended a lot on the political will, no, the application or uh the implementation of this legislation, but we continue to manage our territories in Colombia. It is said that beyond administrative economic resources , we talk about how to manage the territory and then we think about what we need to continue this administration. And then in relation to these ETAs in 2025, thanks to this decree, we have had this recognition of an indigenous territorial entity , but it is a struggle that we have been waging for several years. So, what's new? Therefore, we can have more skills than before. governance and administration resource skills. And this process, as I said, is nothing new. This didn't start with this decree; we were doing it before. But what we have now is 22 Indigenous territories working on this political proposal, many of which are working on centralisation with administrative acts, and obviously they are in very difficult situations. It's difficult to do this work because these are communities that are far removed from the government. I am talking about the distance and also the political situation which prevents them from making rapid progress in this process. But I would say that it is an opportunity for Indigenous peoples, a good experience for those who wish to know, because it allows Indigenous peoples to practice their self-determination, to live it, and also to coordinate it. Coordinating with local entities, governance, and local government allows us to be part of the decision-making process, doesn't it? Because normally, this is a situation in which other people make decisions about us, Indigenous peoples, and we were not at the decision-making table. So the message that I had noted for you and that I shared with you is the following: indigenous governance is nothing new. It has always existed, but with this new legal proposal, it will allow us, it will help us to maintain the forests because it will help us to have clear actions to maintain the forests. Thank you so much. Alphonse, I would like to turn to you now. Could you share, describe how forest governance actually works in your region? Yes, thank you very much. If I consider the governance of forests in the Democratic Republic of Congo and in the regions where we are currently working, we know, we see that it is the first in fact in terms of a dual legal system, that is to say that we have customary law, but we also have modern law in quotation marks, which concerns customary rules, three customary rules. Normally, communities, elders, and community assemblies should make decisions normally, but this was destroyed for decades during the colonial period also by the State, also a very centralized system of government. So really, those who make the decisions about the forests are the traditional chiefs. and civil servants as well as politicians. The communities have been somewhat removed from this, from this decision-making process in the forestry sector, and you also have some cases where they have expelled people who had lived in areas for generations. So that's how it works. To complicate matters further, according to Congolese law, the forest is an area of ​​shared competence between the States, the State, the provinces and decentralized entities. So you have three levels of entity in the modern state that are actually competing for the management of these forests. You may have situations where the Ministry of Forestry has made a decision on the forest, but you see that the provincial governor has made a different decision, and this results in conflict. So sometimes communities see that their forests have been allocated by a foreign company or external actors. So it 's a very complex situation. I would say that according to customary law, the only ones who can control decision-making are the traditional leaders. But we also have great men in quotation marks, the elites in quotation marks of these communities who sometimes do not even live in the village or in the region. They often live in cities which also participate in decision-making with customary rights and the community is therefore somewhat sidelined. So I wouldn't say it's really a governance system because governance means inclusivity, legitimacy, accountability. And for that reason, if you look at it, none of these criteria are met. And then we can talk about management, simple top-down management . So that's what I could say about forest governance and how it looks today. So you talked about governance with the three elements of legitimacy, inclusivity, and you also talked about how communities are sometimes left out . So I would like to ask you a question now about community forest concessions because often when we talk about protecting forests, they are often turned into national parks and communities find themselves evicted. But from my understanding, community forest concessions are actually the opposite, or rather, communities take control, and what are the potential long-term benefits of this type of model for both forests and communities? Yes, thank you very much. You see, before that, before we had the intervention of the State which took ownership of the forests and also the underground, the soils, the forests and the subsoil which, in quotes, belongs to the State. Before this event, the communities owned the forests and the land. Everything belonged to the communities. But now with these community forest concessions, it's actually a bit of a step backwards where we give control of the forests and ownership is returned to the communities. This means the community is taking control. There is a change of power somewhere, and it has been returned to the hands of the communities, and this will be forever. In relation to and according to this reform which was introduced a few years ago, they indicate that concessions are entrusted to communities up to 50,000 hectares of forest and this forever and free of charge. So when communities receive these concessions, the communities then become the owners of these forests. They can then establish simple management plans for the forests and determine how to allocate activities within the forest, and this relates to governance. Here we have real governance in the sense that you have different entities that are responsible for the governance of these community forest concessions. You have the local committee responsible for management and the people are chosen and nominated by the community members who actually elect the people who are responsible for the day-to-day management of the forests. And something that is very interesting is that we see within the framework of the election process, we also have what we call social cadets in quotation marks who are elected, who are responsible for management. We also have women who are presidents of these communities. We also have young people who are involved in the management of these activities and who are accountable to the community. The traditional chiefs who are responsible for the community are no longer the ones making decisions regarding the forest. It is a collective action, a collective decision-making process that was put in place to ensure inclusivity and legitimacy because they recognize the role of the population. This changes a lot of things because, according to them, the forest is not outside. That means they are part of, they belong to the forest somewhere in the natural domain and so when they take control of these forests, it also improves because for them it is not only a question of preserving the forest, it is also a way of preserving themselves because they belong to nature, they belong to the forest. So that's why we see that in these concessions, biological diversity is returning and we also see that the forests are better protected. So I would say that for the forests we monitor, we see that they allocate at least 70% of their concession for conservation activities. And for them, conservation is not just a matter of biodiversity, but also for cultural purposes, for ritual or elements or activities. I see that my time is up now. I'm going to stop there. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Alfons Roua. I now turn to you to listen. Tell us about forest governance in the region where you are located. Yes, thank you very much. I will therefore express myself in Indonesian. My true language is Toraja. Unfortunately, we do not have a Toraja interpreter here. So I apologize. The video we watched yesterday, I think some of you still remember it, where we saw children swimming in the river, the story of the river. also how indigenous peoples protect nature and protect the future. We have several friends who are here. Juan Martinez, who is with us, who went to the forest in 2012. Din Corfus, also who is with us, and I would also like to take this opportunity to announce that we are now members of the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Lending Issues . You are the representative for Asia. And we also have Cafine. Is Cafine in the room? Yes. Yes. Who is already present and who has also experienced what we call in our indigenous systems that governance is real. This is not something romanticized like in children's stories. No, it's real. For what ? Why was this the reality? Because in our means of subsistence, we do not distinguish between the political, the economic, and the social. Everything complements each other. and interconnect. The legal system as well as the system of indigenous peoples is not only to regulate relations between humans, but also to govern the relationship between humans, nature, including with animals, trees and also regulates the relationship between the living and spirits. the spirit in the region I mention so the name of the allengtan river is only one of the seven systems of governance where we have been working with Indigenous peoples for over 40 years. So they are under pressure, the companies that cut down the wood, the companies in the agri-food sector, the plantations, all the plantations and so on. But now, there are many people who are involved in ecosystem restoration. We don't know what they want to do. We still have good ecosystems. They may want to do restoration work and they are also competing with carbon projects. So the most difficult ones are the people who come and promise us that if you accept the carbon markets, money will fall from the sky like leaves fall from a tree. So everyone is talking about money, they're presenting money and they're saying that it's to their advantage. But of course, it would be simpler to protect the forest. The river contains over 1 million cubic meters of carbon. I don't know. What is the equivalent for emissions for a small country? But it's a reality. So the river represents a lot of carbon. Everything is regulated not only to protect the forest but also people and including agri-food systems and to try not to cause harm to health. In some cases, they use rituals to see or lift breath, and can experience and feel the moisture using their fingertips because they are connected with their ancestors. The government also regulates when rituals should begin, when we should start sowing seeds, when we should go into the forests, which rivers can be used for washing, which one you can use for drinking, and also where you should uh plant crops because there is ancestral protection in place. And if you do that, when there is protection, you may then have become ill or your mind may be affected if you do not respect its rules and even your mind may be removed. This is what makes indigenous systems very close and intergenerational means of subsistence between every human being and some 50,000 hectares of forest still protected and which populations can appreciate through the community. THANKS. The situation in your region, as you have just described, is very worrying. I have a follow-up question which is a little different in that a single forest region of Indonesia may be threatened by different governance jurisdictions. We are talking about Indigenous systems, we are talking about the provincial dimension and also the governance of conservation systems. So how do indigenous peoples actually manage to cope with this overlapping of systems? And how can they ensure they maintain authority over their territory? Good for the river and the Lingbang. This is the primary generation of mapping defined in the [grunt] 80s 90s. Support, we are only talking about the bad influences of technology on indigenous peoples who want us to fight against modernization. But uh, but in Indonesia, we also rely on technology as a weapon to do digital mapping of remote sensors. This has already been implemented for both rivers, and has been since the beginning, for the last 40 years. And that is why all the stories, all the memories of their land continue to be shared. And that's also where the governance system works because we 've already agreed on the spaces that need to be managed. What are the spaces that are considered sacred spaces for the ancestors and to protect, and this is something that we follow, that we must follow carefully. In August 2019, we accompanied a group of young people from all corners of the world, from Russia, from all regions, to visit the river. And on the last evening of their visit, they were outdoors, and one of them said, "If all indigenous people lived like this, we would all be living in a happy world. The government is only there to cause problems, and that's what happened to the river because forest governance isn't just about governing the forests; it's a very complicated system in Indonesia, and here it's defined as two types of forests: forest areas and non-forest areas. The rest is then divided into concessions as national parks, some of which can be used, as well as non-forest areas. So the river is in Lingtang, an indigenous region that has been defined by four forms of governance according to government instructions. Some areas are considered non-forest areas, one is considered forest area, and another is protected forest and forest production. So they keep trying to do everything, to change everything, and it can change at any moment. But why is the river important? Because from the Initially, they had the map, the available maps. Every time a company wants to set up in the region, it's refused. All they really want is to be left alone. So that's why Aman and our goal is to ensure that the maps are rigorously respected and followed. And the government must recognize that the forest areas must be returned as customary forest. Based on the constitution, the forests belong to the indigenous people. Of all the government governance categories, the only ones that apply are customary forests. That's why nearly half of the region has been returned as customary forest because some of them are still threatened due to the lack of legal recognition. That's another problem. The problem we have is with NGOs that want to develop so-called " social forests," but these are forests that belong to the indigenous people. Now they want to obtain permits for social activities and carbon permits, and that This is a problem for us. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ra. We can applaud our speakers. You may return to your seats, but please leave the microphones on your chairs if possible. So, we'll come. Thank you all. So, we've just heard three very different visions of territorial governance: in the Amazon, the Congo Basin, and Southeast Asia. And there are two things that have already struck me: none of these systems is simple or static. It's not a single law or a single leader that allows this system of governance to be maintained. There are different levels of exchange. We're going to look not only at how decisions are made in governance systems, but what makes these decisions sustainable. So, we're going to ask the territorial people to come and talk to us about this. I'd like to invite our second group of speakers. I'd like to invite D. Montier from the Indigenous People and the Local Network for Forest and Ecosystem Management to the stage. Central Africa. Thank you, Diel. Diel is from the learned Bambouti people. We also have Liva and Sucré Romero, co-chair. Liva is the co -chair of the Global Alliance of Territorial Communities (GATC) and the executive director of the Mo-American Alliance of Peoples and Forests. Léviille is from the Bribamanca Indigenous community of Costa Rica. You'll see there's still one seat available if there are people in this room, a young person or an elder who belongs to a territorial leadership organization who would be interested in sharing their field experience and answering the questions I have. There's still one seat available if someone would like to take it. Brooka, you've already spoken, so perhaps not you. Is there anyone, a woman, or a young leader who would like to speak again on behalf of a territorial organization who would like to join us? This is your opportunity to share your thoughts, your ideas. Very well, perfect. Come on, come on. The question I'd like to ask is... The question I'm asking you all is, when you consider communities in terms of how decisions are made and how everyone reaches an agreement, and consider communities where there are strong territorial leaders who have endured year after year, this isn't something that has been developed over the years. So what is the secret ingredient? What makes it work and maintains the cohesion and strength of this community? I'd like to start with you first. Thank you very much. I am Mr. Di Miré. I work in Central Africa, in the Congo Basin, and particularly in the Democratic Republic of Congo. This question is too profound, as the decision concerns our very lives. When we make a decision, it directly affects our dependence, our very lives. And this means that, if you had understood my predecessor, I tried to review the legal decision-making mechanism, which, in my opinion, has impacted decision-making processes within the indigenous system for years. I can To assert that we were in a situation where others made decisions through legality, through states that decided our very lives without us. But with the current community forestry system, if we utilize legality, if we utilize the law, we are going down to see how to internalize these traditional decision-making mechanisms. For us, it is oral and visual transmission that is our responsibility, that touches us. Our sensitivity is linked to our lives, that is to say, our forests, our lands, which constitute our identity, to safeguard and govern them. We have traditional institutions that are there to ensure the implementation of decisions made by the community, through established and known traditional rules. That's what I can add in terms of sustainability, and that reassures us about the intergenerational transmission of our traditional knowledge. Thank you. Thank you very much. Sorry about that. Thank you very much. I know you said it was a complicated and difficult question, but I think you You did a fantastic job answering the question. Thank you very much, Levi. Can I come to you now? Well, I agree with Diel that the question was very profound, very complex, and to answer it, I would like your help. And to do that , I would also like to ask you a question so that you can understand my answer. Which of you would destroy the only home you can live in? For us, we believe that the forest will be preserved if the people want to preserve it. If you reconsider the three commitments made at COP30, this reality— the fact that the forest will be preserved if the people want it, and that the people will become a reality if the three commitments are respected—if you consider these three commitments from COP30, the FTFG, the FF, and other decisions, what happens with that? We must recognize that the TFL very timidly acknowledges that Indigenous peoples have their role. They recognize the need for direct investment, but it remains very low for the Maintenance and preservation of forests. That's why we at GATC, through the mechanisms we're developing, are working on measuring the impact of this 20% of direct funding. Do we want to share this? We want this to be known because what we need is for future commitments to be measured not only by the quantity of forest but also by the number of people who live around and in these forests. So how do we do this within our communities? That's the answer to your question. Here I share and agree with you how profound and intense this question is, and how to find the secret ingredient. We were asked, so the first of these ingredients, I would say, is the daily practice of our ancestral traditions within our community. The second ingredient is inclusive dialogue. Inclusive dialogue among leaders, between our youth and women, and territorial leaders, is what allows us to be involved in governance. Governance that goes beyond the laws imposed upon us. It's about dialogue. It's this dialogue that allows us to truly govern well. The third ingredient is the use of ancestral practices in our production methods. You won't find us working with monocultures and chemicals. No, that's not us. And another important point, which isn't ancestral in nature, is the dialogue—the daily dialogue, again and again—that we try to engage in with our governments. Today we 'll try to do it, and tomorrow we'll try again; we do this year after year. This is what allows us to fulfill our functions. And here we have the four ingredients that are important to give you a concrete and specific answer to your questions. Thank you. Thank you very much. These are very tangible, very concrete ingredients that you've shared with us to help us reflect on what we need to strengthen governance. So, could you introduce yourself and then share your Reflections on what we've heard, and also share any other secret ingredients you'd like to share with us? Hello, my name is Cat Patachot from Ba do Sud in the municipality of Potoseguro, Brazil. We had the colonization of this place in the year 1500. We were colonized by the Portuguese, invaded, we were deprived of our system of territorial governance, and the Portuguese brought their traditions, and they [clears throat] entered our land and invaded everything. They took our language. They stopped our culture. We were forced to speak another language, a foreign language. We had no rights. We couldn't even believe in our religions or have our customs. So that's the context. We couldn't live, we could only survive because of this system of massacre. We also had very harsh political situations. We even had to give up our homes, and now the youth are seizing the opportunity to go to university and educate us about the laws, the The constitution, the legal world, and now we can have our territories again, we can reclaim them, and as my colleagues have said, our home is the forest. The forest is our home, it's our life, it's our livelihood. If we don't have forests, if we don't maintain the forest, if we don't protect it—the same goes for the river, the ocean, the seas, nature—well, nothing can develop. We must ensure the survival of all nature. We have 800,000 to 72,000 hectares for local communities and Indigenous peoples who value life, who recognize life, and scientists have even stipulated that the PACL (Protected Areas of Local Communities) contribute to the continuity of the planet, to ensuring the planet's survival through our protection of nature. There will be no one on Earth without the cultures of Indigenous peoples. We have our own systems of health, medicine, and remedies, thanks to the forest. We use the forest for our livelihoods, but without destroying it. We are developing also ecotourism and a wellness system where I live in South Bayant. And we have survived despite colonization, and I am delighted to contribute to the land's survival. Thank you. Thank you very much for all these contributions. You can sit down and leave the microphones on the seats. We have heard from different people who work in different governance systems, and that this is done over several generations, years, and relationships; it is based on trust, and it can be difficult to establish, but there are people who contribute to supporting this creation of trust and relationships. But before we move on to the next step, I would also like to share some thoughts from people who are online. We have over 100 people connected online, and I will read some reflections. There is one that is very short. It is based on what you have said. He said it is an experience we also have in India that is very depressing: solidarity. So I am sending you a message of solidarity following these very difficult. We also have comments from Sarah Tolbet online responding to what Alphonse said. She said that in my experience in eastern DRC, even though logging concessions are free, in reality they are very expensive to implement. That's why today concessions are created with NGOs. NGOs are necessary but sometimes play a very problematic role in these concessions because they control the information communities receive about the logging concessions. And because of this, I've seen that a lot of power is given to NGOs, much more than to the communities, which is far from ideal. There's a question. What are some examples of community interest in forest preservation? So this isn't a Q&A session, but I just wanted to share this question. We've heard from those in the forestry system. Now we'll move on to the third step: researchers, donors... funds, academics. And the question we have for you is based on what has just been discussed and what truly strengthens local governance . And what more should we do to support them in the future? To answer this question, I would like to invite the following: Sergio Guzman, from the local communities of Etou, Guatemala, and head of Guatemala Carbon for COFOP; and then two other speakers. If you are a funder, thank you very much, or an academic or conservation partner, this is an opportunity to share your thoughts. It would be good to have a woman, please. Thank you very much. So, based on everything we have heard so far, what do you think are the key elements that truly strengthen local governance, and what more should we do to support them in the future? Let's begin, and I ask you to introduce yourselves if you are new. Thank you very much. Hello everyone. Yes, indeed, I am from the local community of Etou, Guatemala, and head of AkoFOP. We have 24 community associations. We are also members of AMPB, the Mesoamerican Alliance, and we have received support from several donors. So today's event by Tier Facility, the Ford Foundation, is very relevant. There are many people, many organizations that have supported us over the past 25 years. So, what have we done thanks to this support? We've heard colleagues say that forests are where the people are, and it's the same for Guatemala. If you look at a world map in satellite view, where are the forests? Where are these green spaces? Where are the Indigenous peoples, the local communities? And Guatemala is no exception. We have 40,000 hectares of forest in Guatemala, which may seem very small compared to Colombia. But for us, it's enormous. We are a small country, and for us, our forest governance has worked thanks to the support of the donors who have worked together with us, who have provided us with Support with drones, technologies that allow us to care for and protect forests. And we also received the land rights model without which it would be difficult to continue protecting forests for future generations. So sometimes we spend on market opportunities such as carbon credits, and that's why the INIA is so important. So how do they help community governance models? They help us in the area of French rights to better use technologies, and another thing, we have to work with governments, whether it bothers us or not. Governments are governments . They have the political power and the management. But of course, those who truly manage the land are us, the Indigenous peoples. So the role of donors could help us fill these gaps and work more closely together. There are people who don't like to mix things up. No, we can't use our resources in the political sphere. But ultimately, that's what we have to do. We have to work together. We have to have this collaboration, this It's a mix. Sometimes it feels like we can just have meetings and that there are always limits, barriers. But I think it's very important to continue this advocacy and to do it in all the spaces we have. And another thing that has helped the forest governance model is focusing on sustainability. When we work with communities, we strengthen sustainable management. What does that mean? Focusing on the trees, for example, making sure the forests have a long life. No, that they live for hundreds of years to come. Forests know how to live, but when we take care of them , when we use them sustainably, we contribute to their longevity . We can't cut down trees without noting where they were because otherwise we'll lose them forever. So we need sustainable management. It's really key, and financially as well, because we're talking about job creation here, because who pays to maintain the forests? No, the Communities do the work, and they may or may not be paid . Often, different resources are used, such as forests, and then there's something else, like climate management and working with biodiversity credits. Uh, all of this in that area... a, support there is really very important and as Lév said, we can't just talk about carbon credits or targets. We must talk about people, about individuals, because without them, we will have no success. Yes, thank you for wanting to introduce yourself. Good afternoon. Salama, I'm going to speak in Indonesian. Hello, I am Annie Parlan. I am the lead facilitator for Forest Initiative Indonesia. To answer the question of what we should do, I would like to talk about the struggle of indigenous peoples in Indonesia. It's a very long struggle. We have faced many challenges, not only on a territorial level, but also with businesses, the presence of businesses, and we are being expelled in the name of development, right? and mining and all sorts of so-called development projects. Then there are housing projects, bridges and so on, and there are many challenges that always come back to the same story, development, development. And it's really not easy for us because the government says this project is meant to help the people in Indonesia. It's something for development, but in reality it destroys the environment. Especially for us, our sustainability, our future is really affected by this. We are talking about the destruction of our way of life, we indigenous peoples and local communities. That's the first point. Secondly, after the struggle, we see that in Indonesia we have a population of almost 300 million people with 27,000. It's not easy to wage this struggle. So if we want to fight for the rights of indigenous peoples, we cannot work alone. That's why we're developing [clears throat] coalitions and that's why we have this coalition with 50 organizations. Is that enough? 50 organizations? No. But we must continue, and it is also about communicating well, and I completely agree with what Roua said. She had spoken about the forest area and customs. The forests belong to the indigenous peoples. We also need to talk about terminology, and government policies as well. This is a whole conversation about the value of indigenous peoples. We know it's not going to be an easy process. This will only be possible if we work together. So, another point, my 4th point and the next one. how to work together formally and not only that but also with a favorable mechanism within the community and also with several with an interreligious dialogue. We have five religions in Indonesia, more than 96, uh, 100, one religion. So it would be very important to be able to talk with priests, with imams, with all religious leaders. So we not only need legal support from NGOs but also from religious institutions, and we have that support. Then, establishing a campaign and a team that focuses on that campaign is important so that the public can understand what we are doing. THANKS. First of all , I apologize for being a white man on stage again, but I am somebody, I care deeply about the Amazon. I am Patrick Cunningham. I work with a charity that supports the Shingu community in Brazil. So earlier, we were talking about governments in a broad sense. Governance depends on several things. For example, formal structures. But what is important, perhaps more important, are the power structures within these formal structures. And it is very important that Indigenous peoples have their position recognized in relation to the fact that they have quite little power, which is due to a lack of funding or financial support. I think we really need to balance this power because indigenous peoples are the first to be affected by these scourges. And that's all I wanted to say because I think it's the most important thing. We have a structure in place to provide financial support to Indigenous peoples who are on the front line. But it doesn't work in cops and high-level meetings. There are pledges, promises, commitments, hundreds of millions of billions of dollars in support and so on for the climate, and of which much less than 1% reaches these frontline organizations, and this is due to a lack of formal structure and the two-tier system in which this money passes through several national and international organizations, banks, NGOs, and then what arrives on the ground is very little, and this is something we must address from the top down, of course, with the participation and in conversation and dialogue with the indigenous peoples who have the initiative and the capacity to be part of this process and who absolutely must be consulted and be part of this dialogue. To do this, you need funds, funds to really bring about real change at the structural level, and of course, you need the financing for these indigenous organizations. I'll stop here. Yes. Thank you so much. Yes, you may sit down. We will go through this session. I wanted to read another thought, another comment from people online, but the conversation doesn't end there. uh you can uh have a ter coffee uh d'or and continue the discussions. I think that uh Patrick really shared well to conclude and then Patti online Patti Rohayu gave three specific suggestions. First, spiritual practices and territorial maps must be formally documented and recognized as a right to support Indigenous sovereignty. We must also pay attention to identities which are sometimes difficult to recognize in current systems because we often forget these close communities. Scientific research and digital technologies can help strengthen, preserve and support indigenous knowledge while respecting property rights. And I think it's really very important to use technology, but there's always this question of who owns this technology, who can use it. So I think that's also a very good way to end this morning's discussion. Bravo, let's applaud everyone who came on stage to contribute and thank you to those who are here online. I will now hand the floor to Carlos Juan Carlos to conclude. OK, he has to leave. So Margaret, I'm going to ask you to wrap things up and give us that overview of this morning's conversation. Thank you so much. First of all , I would like to thank you for your energy. discussion today. So, a few points to highlight before leaving the room. From all the speakers, it was very clear that customary systems of governance have always existed and will continue to exist. What we do to strengthen them will be essential for the preservation of forests. A governance system that is not inclusive will never work and will not help us in the future. that the support we provide must always contribute to this spirit of inclusivity. It must be recognized that traditional practices and actions are based in spirituality and faith which we need to use more and better understand because it shapes the knowledge and understanding of forests as a home and nobody wants to destroy their home. We do everything possible to ensure that where we live, our identity is preserved and to make it endure. And lastly, technology and science are not an enemy, they are our partners. and how to use and integrate it into our monitoring systems and how we use forests and keys for forest sustainability in the future. So a big thank you to everyone. Thank you to this audience who has so much energy and thank you to the moderator. Thank you very much for the closing remarks. What we have heard today and what the exercise of authority looks like, not by decree, but by practice, through rules that the communities themselves have written, through decisions that are defended not only in the courts, but also in the valleys, the forests and at community meetings, I want to thank the organizers. You can see them. Global Alliance, the Global Alliance, Land Portal Facility and the Ford Foundation. There will be another Land Portal event, a dialogue about the land. So if this topic interests you, I invite you to participate in this event. We are coming to the end of our event, but I hope this will not be the end of the conversation. I hope we can continue the discussion on how to protect these systems we have and how we can contribute to them. Thank you very much. pleasure of being