Question Period Rewind - November 29 1989

Welcome to Question Period Rewind. I'm Donna Skellyy, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. Today, a segment from 1989, and that was a big year for film. Audiences saw the debut of the romantic comedy When Harry Met Sally, starring Billy Crystal and Me Ryan. There was also Dead Poet Society and Disney's The Little Mermaid. But the highest grossing film worldwide that year was Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade. What was going on in Ontario's Parliament? It had nothing to do with archaeological crusades. Let's take a listen. [music] Oral questions. The member for Atobbico Rexdale. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the um in the absence of the premier, I'll uh direct my question to the deputy premier. The um in the break, Vince, >> the municipal uh affairs staff prepared a cabinet submission to the then minister recommending a public inquiry into the into the development of York Region. We now know that the recommendation was killed by the premier's chief political fixer, Gordon Ashworth, in a meeting of February the 4th, 1989. And I asked the deputy u the deputy premier does he think it it's it's appropriate that the executive director of the premier's office would play such a role and have such authority. >> Deputy premier I'd like to ask the minister of municipal affairs to respond to the question >> to the minister of municipal affairs. >> Mr. uh Mr. Speaker, the uh the particular issue that the honorable member speaks to was one that was placed before my predecessor uh along with uh two other options. Uh at the time that the uh previous minister had asked his staff to define three options for him. Uh he clearly indicated to them that he wanted background information uh that he could use depending upon which option he moved forward with. Uh this was discussed with other people. He didn't uh choose to make the decision solely by himself. I uh at least in terms of the discussion. I understand however in talking to my staff, Mr. Speaker, at the present time that the the uh minister finally made the decision himself. Somebody else did not make it. He made it on the basis of the information that was available to him. He made it on the basis of the fact that the police had conducted a I believe an an 11-month review had not been able to substantiate what they felt were were serious concerns and on the basis of that decided that the most appropriate option to use was the administrative review which in fact would change the practices in the municipality under concern and that's exactly what happened. supplementary. >> This um this document which is a a cabinet submission did not was not submitted to cabinet. Instead, it went to Gordon Ashworth and I asked the minister he will know that the key players in the development industry >> order supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, the the minister will know that the key that the key players that the key players in the development industry in the region of York were also the biggest bagmen for the Liberal Party in the 1987 campaign. He'll also know that one of these people, Marco Muto, was instrumental in the purchase of the premier's family business. And I asked the minister, does the minister not agree that people would find it troubling that the premier's chief political troubleshooter would be the person saying no rather than the cabinet to a submission like this? >> Order minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I would uh I would point out to my honorable colleague that uh ministers on a regular basis prepare submissions to cabinet. That's not unusual. Uh I would tell him however that on uh numerous occasions they in fact do not go forward to cabinet. Therefore they do not become a cabinet submission. >> There are there are all kinds of reasons for that. There are there's information that's available at a point in time that doesn't doesn't carry itself out and the minister chooses not to uh carry it forward. uh it is it is not unusual for a minister to discuss with a with members of the premier's staff uh certain contingency plans or or elements of a decision that they're trying to make. But in the final analysis, Mr. Speaker, it is the minister himself or herself that makes that decision as to whether or not to proceed. It is not someone else who makes that decision. >> Final supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that the um I'm sure that the minister with his experience would would agree that if a problem is of a major nature that it would normally go to cabinet. If it is of a minor policy nature, it would at least go to the uh to the minister and have an extensive review by him and the final decision made by the by the minister. If it's a legal problem, it would have gone to the attorney general. But >> is it not true that the only problem that would be referred to Mr. Ashward would be a political problem, a problem then for the Liberal Party, a problem for the premier? And that's what's happened in this case. >> Minister, >> Mr. uh Mr. Speaker, I can assure my honorable colleague that that is uh that that is his latter statement is not the case. uh I as a minister for the previous roughly four and a half years on a fairly regular basis uh call up members of the premier staff uh to get some sense about particular issues and I can I can tell him very clearly that uh nine out of 10 of those calls would have nothing to do with a what he calls of a political nature unless he means small P politics which involves everything we do around this place. uh but uh we do consult I consult with other members of my uh of the cabinet on the impact that it will have on them depending upon the decisions I'm thinking of but in the final analysis I look at all the information that's available to me I make a decision and I think the honorable member would appreciate the fact that the uh the cabinet now meets uh uh used to meet once a week now meets once every two weeks uh we as ministers are expected to make the bulk of the decisions ourselves not taking them to cabinet That's that's our call to make as to whether we take it to capital. In this particular situation, the minister chose to make >> order. >> New question. The member for Hamilton. >> Order. >> New question. The member for Hamilton West. >> Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the premier, I'll direct my question to the Minister of Health. In response to a questioning on October the 12th uh of this year about the death of Mrs. LRA after a vain search for a critical care bed, the premier said in this house, Madame Minister, and you'll remember the words, "There is a system in place, but the system was not used." And then he repeated again, "It was there, but for some reason the people involved did not avail themselves of that service." And again, why was that system which is in place to the best of my knowledge and functions well most of the time not used? And again, but the system was there. The question is why was it not used? Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister uh in the light of the evidence that is now coming out into the in the inquest with respect to the death of Mrs. Lequa, are you prepared to admit that the advice that you and the premier gave does not in fact correspond to the facts of the situation? Minister. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As the member opposite knows, there is an inquest underway which is a factf finding exercise. I believe it would be inappropriate for me to prejudge the determinations of that inquest. And in fact, I would say to him that it would be inappropriate for any of us in this forum to comment on an inquest while it was ongoing. >> Supplementary, the member for Tobico Rexdale. [laughter] No. The member the member for Hamilton West. >> Mr. Speaker, the minister knows quite well and I'm quite astonished that she's not being straightforward with this house. At almost exactly the same date, she was telling us that it wasn't going to be until the year's end that the regional hotlines would be in place that would provide the basis for a provincial hotline service. She knows very well that uh that she can comment on facts that pertain to this situation. U may I ask her a second uh supplementary, Mr. speaker with respect to the real problem uh which is that uh >> the emergency ward situation that we're faced with is is a direct product of the shortage of nurses. We've had recent articles in the paper by people like Dr. John Oyon who have uh has been around emergency wards in this city for some time and and can testify to that among others. And the cases that we've raised in this house have repeatedly repeatedly indicated that nurses in neonatal care ICUs in London and Hamilton, trauma cases transferred to Toronto have suffered from this particular problem. Madame Minister, a ministry source uh tells us that uh you're aware of a study in your ministry uh that indicates that acute care and critical care nursing together account for 67% of all nursing shortages in Ontario. Can you confirm that figure for us, please? >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The member opposite in his very lengthy question suggested uh that in fact I was not being forthright with this house and I want to be very very clear in the question that he asked he uh he referred to the establishment of provincial critical care hotlines. I was very clear when in June I announced an $18 million provincewide program to enhance the quality of emergency health services. In response to that, he would know that my colleague, member opposite from the third party, said he didn't think that we had to spend $18 million to come to common sense conclusions and that any doctor uh that he had dealt with, that's the member from Perry Sound, certainly knows what hospital to call and what other specialized physicians to contact in terms of needing specialized care. And that's a quote. Uh what I would say to uh to the member who's asked this question is that in fact at that time we announced that we would be establishing regional provincewide regional critical care hotlines. I I'm told that the first regional hotline should be in place by the end of this year and that ministry staff are working to establish the others as soon as possible. >> Final supplementary. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister still is not being straightforward with this house because she knows very well there was no system in place that could have been used by Dr. Nezd Dolly has been repeated time and time again >> but I want to come back to the minister on the question which she failed to answer uh my second on my supplementary. Uh Mr. Madame Minister, you have in your ministry apparently uh a study which tells you that uh that there is a grave shortage and that in fact the shortage is so severe that with respect to acute care critical care beds uh the shortage is is at the level of 67% constitutes 67% of the nursing shortage all across the hospital system in in Ontario. Now are you going to confirm that information for us or are we going to have to try to find it out in more authoritative ways? Minister. >> Speaker, as I mentioned to the member opposite, we've taken a number of initiatives uh in the area of nursing. We've appointed a nursing coordinator. We have brought forward regulations under the public hospitals act to ener ensure that nurses participate and have a greater say in hospital decision-making. As well, I met recently with the ministry's uh uh nursing manpower advisory committee to discuss many of the issues facing nursing. Now, one of the things that the member opposite should know is that in fact we have enhanced and expanded services across this province in a number of ways which raises the issue of the importance of human resource and manpower planning. That's something that we are attempting to improve upon in this province not only in nursing but in the allied health professionals as well. And I would say to him that he can uh rest assured that with the uh the research that we're having done through um the quality of work life research and through our nursing initiatives and nursing innovation fund we will in fact gather the data that is necessary to ensure that we properly plan for the future in not only um uh areas of service delivery but also in human resource planning and in nursing in particular in this. New question, the member for Sarnia. >> Uh my question, Mr. Speaker, is for the solicitor general. I want to ask the solicitor general uh if he could advise this house at the February meeting that was held in connection with uh the York Region development questions. Could the minister share uh with this house whether in fact the OP were at the or in attendance at the meeting that was held with the the former minister of municipal affairs and the uh principal assistant to the premier, Mr. Gordon Ashworth? Uh are you aware of whether the OP were there, sir? >> Minister. >> Uh Mr. Mr. Speaker, in response to the uh honorable member uh leader of the third uh party's question, I'd like to uh clearly indicate that uh uh after this allegation uh was made that there was an investigation uh an inquiry made through uh the ministry, I have been advised that there was no such presence. supplementary. >> Further to that same question, I wonder if the minister could advise if he is staying with is saying without any equivocation that the OP were not in attendance at the meeting with the former minister and with the principal secretary to the premier. Could the minister indicate whether in fact there was any discussion and or dialogue at any other times in connection with the OP, the minister in question or the principal secretary, Mr. Ashworth uh regarding this subject. >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, once more I'd like to indicate that I have uh inquired uh dealing with this particular inference or allegation and I'd like to once again state that I have been advised there was no such presence that the investigation 13 months in duration was done in the normal and thorough course. >> Final supplementary. Well, I trust the normal and thorough course that the minister is advising this house that that particular uh situation took uh in fact covers the cabinet guidel guidelines as they relate to this particular question. And the cabinet uh guidelines, Mr. Minister clearly state that with the exception of the attorney general and the solicitor general in the performance of their duties, no member of cabinet may communicate with police officials concerning the decision by the police to lay a charge or charges. Now something happened, Mr. minister because in February there was a meeting that obviously resulted in a decision to not proceed further at that particular point when in fact the earlier memo that uh was shared by the Minister of Municipal Affairs clearly indicated that there were sufficient grounds upon which to proceed at that time. and there was an inquiry being made by the minister as to whether or not he should in fact determine whether a full inquiry was to be held. I wonder if the minister could share with us at this time to be absolutely certain that he will state without any question whatever that the OP had no contact with any minister of the government in connection with this question. Order minister the honorable leader of the third party may wish to ask me this question three or four or 10 or 15 times and you may wish to however wish way you wish to rephrase the question. My response will remain the same and that is that I have asked my officials to make that determination. They have advised me that there was no such presence. That the investigation was done in the usual and normal and thorough course by the OP as is done by all regional and municipal police forces across this province in dealing with any investigation. You may ask me the question as many times as you wish. The response will always be the same because that happens to be the fact. >> [applause] >> Due question, the member for Cochran South. >> Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question uh for the treasur arising out of his announcement today about how they how the government intends to allocate our tax dollars. Uh the treasur is aware that he has been responsible for significant tax increases that we all have to bear in the province of Ontario to the tune of $1 billion over the past two years. He's aware of growing concern in the business community and from average citizens about the impact of his tax increases on people's economic livelihoods and on the ability of many public institutions to deliver basic services to the people of this province. My question is the treasur has announced an increase this year to municipalities and unconditional grants of 4.8% 8% on top of a flatlining of the grants from last year at a very time when inflation by his own documentation his own statistics indicate inflation last year was 5.9% and this and this coming uh >> the question coming year will be 5.3%. Can you indicate how you can justify a 4.8% an 8% increase over a 2-year period in light of your own tax increases to the citizens of this province and how municipalities can carry on basic services. >> Mr. Speaker, the 4.8% uh we feel is a realistic and justifiable increase in unconditional grants. Obviously, I cannot say that it is keeping place with inflation. That speaks for itself. The honorable member said in his earlier remarks that he thought that the rule that he thought that I had laid down last year would indicate that the grant should be lower. But his colleagues who have already spoken on this indicate they think that the grant should be higher. I think perhaps you people should caucus and get your act together. >> Well, Mr. Mr. Speaker, in light of the com in light of the comments of the treasurer and the principles he used last year and the principles he's announced this year driven by the dictates of politics, it's he that should get his act together because he's got two inconsistent economic theories in two straight transfer statements in two straight years. So, it's the treasurer better get his act together and he better give a clear signal as to what his principles and policy order. >> Or order order. I I I appreciate that the questions coming. However, I might suggest that it's helpful if all members will place their comments through the chair and if you wish to point, please point at the chair too. [laughter] >> Mr. Speaker, can the treasurer indicate how municipalities are supposed to provide basic municipal services and at the same time meet the requirements that are now been foisted and offloaded onto municipalities by this government with respect to court security with respect with respect to uh with respect to Sunday shopping enforcement with respect to MISA with respect to the employer health tax with respect to the homes for the aged obligations they now have. How can municipal pay equity? How can municipalities even supply basic services to the citizens of this province and at the same time meet these additional responsibilities in light of your transfer policies? >> Treasurer. >> You know, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the municipalities have done very well under difficult circumstances in providing the services in the past as they will in the future. that these men and women are elected and they're often critical of decisions taken by myself just as they were critical and we were critical of decisions taken by the honorable member and his colleagues when they had that responsibility. But you ask more or less uh what rules we apply. I suppose they are rules of good judgment. The honorable member should know that in the unconditional grants, the minister of municipal affairs has consulted uh on this matter and has announced already a reform of a an approach to the grant system which I think is extremely important one and one in which the municipalities can see an improvement in their situation. But basically, I think the thing that might differentiate uh our decisions from perhaps our predecessors is that uh we do not want to allow our deficit to balloon as it did in the years when the honorable member was associated with the government. When we took office, the deficit was over three billion >> and now that it's uh about uh 570 million. We're proud of that accomplishment. So, we have raised taxes. That's true. No one likes to play pay those taxes, but they do like the services that the money provides. The other rule, of course, is one that uh we hold to uh strongly, and that is that we provide good service with fairness and equity. [applause] >> Supplementary, >> Mr. Speaker, it's not a reform of the policies that dictate transfer payments to municipalities that's needed. It's a reform of the treasur's attitude towards taxation and towards providing basic municipal services to the people of this province that we need. The treasur may relate very well to the consequences of of of his transfer statements over the past two years. He may relate very well to it. The consequences of it have been doubledigit increases in municipal taxation. Double-digit increases. something like the treasurer's own policy with respect to tax increases that we're all paying for now. Whether or not it be sales tax, gasoline tax, land transfer tax, personal income tax. He's great at taxing. He's great at offloading. He's great at encouraging municipalities into double digit taxation. >> The question, >> what will the treasurer ask the municipalities to do this year? Will they have to increase taxes again at doubled digit levels? Will they have to cut services? >> Order. Order. Would you want responses to the three questions or just the first? The three treasurer. >> Mr. Speaker, I uh would say that the municipalities uh and their leadership, the elected members of councils and the mayors and wardens and reeves have the responsibility to respond to these announcements and the checks that go out and support them as they see fit. I don't expect uh uh uh any particular response other than a business-like response and they have to establish the level of service that they want to provide and uh they have to establish the taxes at the lowest level constant with providing those services just as we do here and just as Michael Wilson advises his colleagues to do in um in Ottawa. The honorable member would, I'm sure, agree with us all that we do the best we can. Although it's difficult when we get the sort of advice the honorable member provides when he says we're taxing too much and not giving enough money to our transfer partners. I'm not sure what consistency there is in that advice at all. Take them away. What's your position? >> I'll have to apologize to the member for Beaches Woodbine, but there are some members that don't seem to want to allow you to ask a question. >> See, then I wonder the member for Beaches Woodbine. Mr. Speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. Last week, the Toronto Transit Commission announced it was raising uh transit fairs by an average of 6.4% effective January the 2nd, 1990. In actual fact, Metro passes and senior passes will go up by 8%, the single fair by almost 10%. All above the cost of living uh rate increase. What's worse, Mr. Minister, is TTC officials have warned of either another fair increase or a cut back in transit services if ridership in the system does not increase substantially over the next few months? Can the minister tell me whether he thinks such draconian fair increases or transit service cutbacks will get more people out of their cars and onto public transit? And if not, is he prepared to make sure that TTC patrons will not have to contend with cutbacks in services or a further fair increase in 1990 by renegotiating the provincial municipal TTC cost sharing formula >> whereby the writers pay 68% and the province pays 16%. >> Good question, >> Minister. Mr. Speaker, I no one of course, as I indicated in an answer to a question earlier last week, ever likes any kind of a a price increase. And certainly the TTC has increased has announced uh fair increases which uh uh which are uh for the base fair an increase of 9.1%. But a fair increase which which averages out uh to 6.38% if uh if all of the variations are are taken. Uh I note that the fair increase is uh is uh is 10 cents this year. It was 5 cents last year and 5 cents a year before that which may have been slightly below the rate of inflation. But the honorable member now asked, Mr. Speaker, if we are intending to renegotiate our support for uh for the operating deficit incurred at the Toronto Transit Commission. Uh I would only say to the honorable member that she suggests that our operating support is only 16% which isn't very much. I would tell her in real terms that that operating support will amount to $11 million next year. >> Supplementary. >> Well, supplementary. Mr. Speaker, the problem is that the most of the operating costs have gone up because of new provincial taxes on fuel oil, on gasoline, on tires, and the coming levy on parking lots operated by the TTC. >> Right on. >> And therefore, The minister has a responsibility to take a larger share of operating costs than he has in the past. And that's uh what many transit writers are wondering what they are getting uh from the provincial treasurer in the way of payback of some of these new taxes. They haven't got this these um shepherd subway line. They've got a minuscule they have a supplementary extension of the subway to one stop the Spadina subway. My question, Mr. Speaker, is will the minister recognize that he is not promoting public transit by the by not assisting the TTC in covering his new taxes. >> Answer that one. >> Mr. Speaker, you know, I I listened very carefully to my uh honorable friend's question, and it was it was interesting and ironic because last Friday I was in the uh in the community of Thunder Bay uh inspecting the uh the CANC car facility there. And as I was inspecting the facility, looking at the first of of 60 new bile level trains which we're beginning to build for GO Transit, I was also looking at the last part of the of the latest level of uh subway cars which are just being completed uh at that facility for the Toronto Transit Commission. And it got me to thinking about the kinds and volumes of capital support that we have given the Toronto Transit Commission. And I uh I just would want to note for the honorable member and I noted in my first answer that we supported the TTC or will support the TTC's operating deficit to the tune of over $100 million next year. That since 1985, this government has supported in capital and operating uh costs of the TTC. That support has total over $900 million. >> New question, the member for Carlton. >> Thank you very much. Uh Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. >> No doubt no doubt the Minister is aware of an article which appeared in the October issue of the Canadian Business Magazine listing the 50th 50 fastest growing public companies in Canada by province as compiled by Price Waterhouse. This annual list is a good economic indicator of the overall provincial economic scene. It's interesting to note that the province of Quebec is home of 28 of those 50 companies, more than half the list. In fact, Quebec counts accounts for four of the top five. Ontario is a dismal third place. We have seven out of the top 50 companies in all of Canada. Can you explain this, Mr. Minister? Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I uh I thank the member for the question, but I don't really feel that I have to sort of explain why certain companies are here or why they're somewhere else. But I should tell you that all you have to do is look at the record of Ontario over the last seven years. You'll notice that last year we had the most vibrant economy in the industrialized world. should tell you that 40% of all of the economic activity in this country takes place in uh this province. That is true. Better than Japan and better than any other jurisdiction in the world. So I don't think that we have to apologize for the economic activity in this province and we continue to be the leading jurisdiction in this country. >> Supplementary. [applause] Perhaps I can help the minister because in the Canadian business it states the fortuitous merging of pro business government policies and private attitudes that began in Quebec in the late 1970s continues to nurture the province's entrepreneurs. Ontario has become a very expensive province in which to do business. The average Quebec Ontario corporate tax gap, that is the average higher higher percentage of corporate taxes paid in Quebec against Ontario has narrowed from 9.6% to our advantage in 1985 to a slim 1.8% this year. The new commercial concentration act tax and the employer's health levy uh tax will likely eliminate any narrow tax advantages Ontario firms have now. >> Why, Mr. Minister, has TransCanada Pipeline moved to Calgary? Why are there now 7 million square feet of vacant office space south of Queen Street in the core of Toronto at this time? >> You finally got to the question. Mr. Speaker, >> whenever comparisons are made between Ontario and Quebec and any other jurisdiction, whether it be a sister province or a sister state, there is always one indicator or the other where you can show that they have an advantage one way or the other. But I can tell you that the treasur, his ministry, my ministry monitor what is going on in a competitive way. And we are satisfied that we are doing things that keep Ontario competitive. I can tell you that for everyone that you tell me that is moving out, I can tell you two that are moving in. >> And I can also tell you that we continue to enjoy the most vibrant economy certainly in Canada. >> [applause] >> You question the the member for St. Andrews St. Patrick. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Environment. Uh Mr. Mr. Minister, this morning I carried a number of glass bottles out to the curb for recycling. And like many Toronto residents, like uh many Toronto residents, thank you. I've uh heard reports that some of the glass >> some of the glass collected is contaminated with ceramics and other materials >> and must be rejected. Can the minister provide the house with an update on what is happening to the many tons of glass of various types of containers I might add which is collected in Metro through the blue box program. >> Minister. >> Uh Mr. Speaker, Mr. speaker. An excellent question I must say and uh >> here [applause] >> indeed I think I can assist >> the answer. Well, you can make the judgment after whether it is or not. Well, Mr. Speaker, there are always so negative >> conflicting reports about the fate of uh of glass that is collected in recycling programs across the province. As the member has mentioned, most uh municipalities are solving their glass contamination problems. However, I'm pleased to report and they're taking care much greater care at the curbside collection area. Even the large municipalities such as Ottawa are able to provide recycling companies with what they consider to be a good quality product. I'm pleased to report some figures compiled for the fall of this year and they show that mixed color glass from all locations outside of Metro Toronto had a 92% acceptance rate and that sorted glass had a 99 uh% acceptance rate. I would give some further information to the member that uh many of the successful programs have had strong public awareness uh campaigns which indicate clearly to the people what should and what should not go in the box. In fact, some minister >> Thank you. >> Thank you. There may be a supplementary and you could add some further information then. >> Uh Mr. Minister, I appreciate the information about the good results outside of Metro, but as a Metro member, I'd like to uh understand a little more clearly whether there is a specific problem with glass collection in the metro area and if so, what type of remedies should be implemented in Metro? >> Minister, >> being some operational problems which have been encountered here in Toronto, the city of Toronto chose a type of program. They did not choose what we call the class one program. And as a result, Toronto uses rear packer trucks rather than the special recycling trucks that are used in many other municipalities. Not only are the materials therefore not separated uh and contaminants not rejected at curbside, but all recycling materials are mixed and broken up in the trucks, making later removal of the contaminants more difficult. Recycled materials are picked up also only one day a week whereas in other municipalities they're picked up uh all of the days that garbage are picked up. Therefore, not everything arrives in the yard at the same time. Uh the clean glass collected from Metro and other municipalities uh like those municipalities which don't separate Toronto's for instance the contaminated glass in other words is mixed with the separated glass in the rest of the metro area. Therefore uh they run into problems with glass contamination. uh these can all be overcome. I'm very optimistic that with the some uh changes that can take place, these can overcome and uh in metropolitan Toronto, they will face, I'm sure, the same degree of success in terms of acceptance if the measures I have mentioned in fact have taken place. >> New question. The member for Hamilton, the member for Hamilton West. >> Mr. Why don't you move your glass? >> Mr. Speaker, I want to take the Minister of Community Social Services back to the issue of children's mental health treatment centers and in specific uh to uh address him to the Beach Grove Children's Center in Kingston. This particular center this year has had a waiting list as high as 430 with weights of up to 8 to 15 months. In the course of the recent months, suicidal cases have reached numbers 40 in number at one time without any psychiatric backup. And to give an instance, recently one of their cases viciously assaulted staff members and was a danger to herself and others. They called five or six psychiatrist. No one would come to help. They finally took her to an emergency ward at the hospital where she waited in the lobby for several hours. Wasn't until she bloodied her head, pounding it on the floor that the hospital acted. Is this the way kids with serious emotional problems, Mr. Minister, should be treated in the system which you're responsible for? >> Minister, who uh Mr. Speaker, the uh honorable member has uh underlined an area where there are many difficulties and and many problems which we are addressing with the Ontario Association of Children's Mental Health Centers. uh despite the fact that uh we have uh been putting a great deal of more money into this system uh we are experiencing in in many areas uh increased problems. One of the things that we are doing with the uh children's mental health centers is trying to identify clearly uh what the waiting uh list is and just how many young people there are out there who are in need of service and in of what kind of of service. uh during this month and next we are uh discussing with the uh children's mental health centers uh a series of uh of these issues and steps which we would be able to take uh to help them in providing the service. We recognize that obviously a part of that uh is funding but we believe that there are other elements as well. I think our our focus is the same that we want to ensure that these children have the help uh when they need it. uh and it's fair to say that at this point in time uh we're not able to do that to the extent that we would like. >> Supplementary >> minister referred to funding and the vast majority of these centers cannot afford any psychiatric assistance on their own staffs and you didn't provide any top up out of that $88 million last year for community- based agencies to help these particular people out. Mr. Ogden at the uh Beach Grove Center says the major problem with the centers who have older kids in particular is the split jurisdiction between yourself and health makes it difficult he says virtually impossible to get a hospital bed for stabilization period for an acute psychiatric case involving a teen. Health says kids are Comox's responsibility. Comtock can't get psychiatrists to work for the ministry and the kids are a very low priority list for health even in emergency situations. Given the interministerial nature of this particular problem, Mr. Minister, and given the seriousness of the situation, would you establish or secure from uh cabinet uh the establishment of an independent inquiry uh to investigate this whole circumstance of children's health centers and to report to you and to the ministry the best solution to make for this very very troubling situation. >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Uh I think that I would like to point out to my uh honorable colleague uh that we do have very close cooperation particularly amongst the ministries of health, education uh and community and social services uh to address particular needs and ways in which we can improve the way that we link up and provide service. Uh in addition uh my predecessor created a committee under Dr. Colin Maloney of the Metro Catholic Children's Aid Society which is looking at a number of the issues uh that you have addressed in your uh in your question. uh we are going to be getting a report from that committee in the in the spring but as I say we are addressing these issues now with the uh community mental health uh or children's mental health association and it is my hope that we can address some of uh of these particular uh issues uh and be able to make improvements and to improve coordination so that they can provide the service that they want to do. With respect to the particular case of Beach Grove, I can tell the honorable member that I will have a look at that myself. >> New question, the member for Perry. >> Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health. >> Madame Minister, on April 10th of this year, uh you announced with some fanfare the publication of your booklet, Deciding the Future of Our Healthcare. >> Oh, >> well, don't clap yet. just restrain yourself >> in the legislature. At that point in time, the minister said, and I quote, "People have been telling me they want to know more about how our system works and what choices are available to them." End of quote. She goes on to say she hopes that Ontarians would discuss this with their families around their coffee tables and with their neighbors over their back fences and hoped it would become a bestseller. So, she'd have to print more copies of the same booklet. As of uh July the 4th, uh the minister sent me a response to an order paper question I asked in May. She had printed the 50,000 copies at a cost of some $19,37.77 to the Ontario taxpayer, but had only received orders to date for 11,075. >> Could the minister tell us uh how many orders she's received to date? And in fact, has your publication become a bestseller? Are you anticipating publishing new copies, more copies? >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to say to the member opposite that the response to the deciding the future document uh as I've traveled the province and met with providers and professionals has been very positive. They tell me that in fact it's an important document because it lays out the strategic plan for the future. And in fact, I would say to him that with the establishment of a speaker's bureau in the ministry, which is available to all members of this pro of this uh legislature and all communities who want to hold forums on healthcare, I believe that this document, which is just the beginning of the discussion and the opportunity for communities to participate fully in understanding how our very complex but important health care system works. I believe that this will become just one of the important ingredients in fostering that important discussion in communities and I want to thank him for giving me the opportunity to say that we are making progress in getting that information to the people of this province. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. speaker. The minister uh studiously avoided answering the question as to how many more had to be published and how many more orders she had received. On the uh in the day that on the date that you announced this, April the 10th and in your booklet it also announces that you are going to publish six more of these in six specialties. We have been told that your ministry is now advising healthc care providers that the six subsequent booklets have been cancelled due to a lack of response to your first booklet. And I might uh refer you to a quote that the leader of the opposition made on the day that you introduced this in the legislature. I think the report makes the minister and the ministry a laughingstock. I hope it falls on its fanny. It deserves to. Which is it, Madam Minister? Is it a bestseller and you have to print more? or has have you and your ministry fallen flat in your fanny and you've canled the other six booklets? >> Well, Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the member opposite that in fact many thousands of uh this particular publication have been distributed and that for those people who have an interest in discussing the healthc care future of this province right across this province want to uh in fact meet with us and hold forums in their communities. But I can tell him that in fact there are a number of strategies for doing that. We held, for example, a a consumer workshop forum because we believe that the consumers and consumer advocates in this province should have opportunities to come together. And I would say to him that as we attempt to communicate, we are seeking the very best advice on how we can do that in this society of ours where in fact people want to have information and we are attempting to give them that information in a number of different forms and in a number of different ways. tell that he would support those initiatives because he would agree how important it is for the people of this province to know and understand how to appropriately use and access the health services in this province. I don't think the OMA should stick you. >> New question. >> If I can have the attention of some of them. >> New question. The member for Oxford. [applause] >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is the Minister of Agriculture and Food. During the fall of 1988, the Maloney government promised the people of Canada a land of milk and honey if we accepted the free trade agreement. However, Mr. Speaker, what we've ended up with is a land of ice cream and yogurt. That is American ice cream and yogurt. Mr. Speaker, earlier this fall, the United States obtained a favorable GAT panel ruling, which will allow for American access into the Canadian market in ice cream and yogurt. This ruling, if implemented, could have a disastrous effect on Canada's dairy industry and our supply management system. Now, I've received many inquiries from my constituents as to what the Minister of Agriculture and Food is doing to protect the dairy industry in Oxford County and the entire province of Ontario. Could the Minister inform us today as to the steps he has taken to ensure that we in Ontario continue to have a strong I >> Okay, Minister. Okay. >> Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to answer this question. I'm I'm most pleased to answer the question from my colleague from the county of Oxford, the home of many a good black and white cow that produces much good milk and good cheese uh in Ontario. >> I must say to the grinning member, Mr. speaker that who is proud of those dairy products that I just returned yesterday from Washington where I took up the case on behalf of Ontario farmers. [applause] >> We had discussions as I took along industry representatives from Ontario who are very concerned about the pork counterveail and also the GAT ruling that the member refers to. We spoke to legislators and people of the executive branches of government in the United States and also to industry reps and we found varying opinions on the farm bill and the GAT negotiations. But I think, Mr. Speaker, what became perfectly clear is that American dairy producers, for example, want to have unfettered access to the Ontario market. And I made it perfectly clear that we will be fighting to the last breath for supply management in this province. >> [applause] >> supplementary. >> Now I think >> I think it's time just to wait once more. >> I think it's time just to wait. And >> if you want to waste the time, go ahead. jail. It's all your fault. >> Right there. >> You're like a poor gesture. run them through. >> It's hard to imagine, but I guess that's the way it goes. So >> supplementary. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, I'm pleased to see that the minister has taken some proaction down to the states and see what's going on. Now, what else are you going to do? What else you going to do to follow this up? >> No deal. >> Minister, >> well, Mr. Speaker, it's probably it's probably good that I have a chance to clarify this because it might be advisable at least I'll fight on this to my second last breath. At least I think uh I'll save one breath. Mr. Speaker, I think it's important that we send a message to our federal counterparts and Mr. Crosby in particular that now is the time for Canada to clearly define and strengthen its position on article 11 of the GAT. It's very important, Mr. Speaker, that we articulate an action plan now and we make that public so that we bring great comfort to the people that are producing the farm commodities in this country. [applause] >> New question, >> the member for Rainey River. >> Mr. Speaker, in the absence of uh the premier, my question is for the minister of health. the uh as the minister well knows uh her ministry is shutting down the OHIP collection office in Kingston and a number of uh regular employees, permanent employees and a number of uh of contract employees are losing their jobs. In fact, as I understand it, at this point in time, somewhere in the neighborhood of 99 permanent employees and uh a greater number of contract employees are still without work. Can uh the minister uh tell us what is going to happen to those employees, especially the contract employees who, as I understand it, have no pension plan, no benefits, and uh are basically being told your job is over on May the 15th. Good luck, >> Minister. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In fact, the implementation of the employer's health levy and the elimination of OHIP premiums presents a challenge to the Ministry of Health. And I'm pleased and proud to say that uh we have been working cooperatively uh to implement the kind of program that will show that we are in fact a good employer with the interests of our employees and doing everything we can to assist them appropriately during this transitional time. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, uh the uh minister's remarks uh somehow do not meet with reality because we have talked with many of those contract employees and I'll give the minister some examples. >> Uh one lady who is 58 years old, she is a single parent mother. She has worked for your ministry for eight years. Never have you offered her or given her the opportunity to compete on anything more than a a contract job. She has no benefits and she has no pension plan >> and she has been told that as of May 15th, good luck to her >> after eight years. >> After eight years, another employee, seven years service, also a contract employee, 47 years old again after May 1990, nothing. Another employee age 51 years old, a woman self-supporting has worked for OHIP again. eight years, no pension plan, no benefits, and she has been told as of May 15th, good luck. I want to ask the minister, your government says that you're in favor of pay equity, employment equity. How is it that your ministry can take a workforce that is mainly women, you have kept them as contract employees for eight years, and now you're telling them to go out the door without any benefits whatsoever. How do you justify that, >> Mr. Speaker? In fact, the member opposite is not categorizing this situation correctly at all. I would say to him that the ministry is working very closely with the union that a uh a very significant package has been put in place to assist employees. Uh that there have been no layoffs and that in fact people are being given priority in job placement. I would say to him as well that we are trying to assist our employees. we care about them and that in fact I understand that change is difficult for everyone. But in fact, the Ministry of Health is attempting to be a very good employer in assisting their employees through what is a difficult and challenging time. But I would say to him that we're doing that in a cooperative way, seeking the very best advice of the union with us in Kingston. >> You're wrong. Perhaps you better just sit down and wait until they're finished. >> No, it's the attorney general is finished. So, >> that's fine. Then we'll just uh recognize the member for Missaga South now that she has things under control. >> Go Margaret. >> Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of the Environment. I know uh Mr. minister that you don't have time and I don't expect you to read all your news releases but there was one released this week on the 27th in fact two days ago that I think you should read. It's almost like reading Punch magazine. It's the one about the asbestous in the drinking water. The initial headline in this release talks about a six-year period which contained contained elevated levels of asbestous fibers in certain community and goes on to name them. Then when you get to the second page, it says that the the uh testing subsequently indicated that there had been errors made in the initial sampling and in the laboratory reading of those samples. I have to ask you what on earth is this release about and is there a serious problem and should we be concerned in those communities that are named in it? >> You have a response to one of those three questions. >> In fact, Mr. Speaker, this is a a historic uh summary as we put it of uh I have it right here of the sampling activity and data that was generated. It has been compiled and published now at this time to provide an Ontario frame of reference for reviewing a new proposed US asbestous and water regulation in conjunction with the current Ontario objective for asbestous in water. And uh the actual study took place or the actual testing took place from I think 1977 to 1983. And during that period of time there were some as the press release said uh there were some 371 municipal water supplies tested over that six-year period. Uh three of which uh which in the initial test showed some indication of asbestous. Subsequent to that uh they always retest to make certain they are per they are right >> and in fact in one it appeared and my understanding is that in fact that was cleared up some time ago >> supplementary [laughter] >> well I don't think that the the public are going to be very clear about the answer but I will ask you another question Mr. Minister, it also says in your press release that there is no Canadian objective for asbestous in drinking water and yet it talks about there being one in the United States. Are you concerned about levels or any existence of asbestous in drinking water in Ontario today or and are you concerned about the fact that they use asbestous pipes to transport that water? >> Minister, >> good question. Typically they have used that uh and what they've overcome it with member way may know in communities where there's high acidity in the water they simply use soda ash as it is called or uh sodium bicarbonate and that can be used to neutralize the corrosive effect of the water preventing the release of those asbests fibers. In fact uh we're very interested in the US EPA and what it is doing at this time. We wanted to provide some data from our point of view which is historic. The problem was solved a long time ago in MACtier. I don't know whether at that time there was a press release put out or something. It was number of years ago but that is the context in which it was released and uh we would like to see it with as many products as possible uh these guidelines established. That's why we're working with the EPA in this regard. >> New question the member for St. Catherine's Brock. >> Thank you Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the minister responsible for the disabled. Minister, on Monday, November the 27th, a major newspaper published a front page article which used outmoded, if not derogatory terms, not only in the headline, but throughout the article. The article detailing a abysmal conditions in a very poor province of China used such terms as shuffling It also alluded to the inhabitants of certain village as imbeciles and cretins. Minister, I have a number of disabled uh persons living in my writing, as we all do, and everyone whom I've spoke to over the last few days have taken some offense at this article. As Minister responsible for the disabled persons, what are you going to do to address this outrage on behalf of the disabled people of Ontario? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can tell the member from St. Katherine Sprock that I have seen the article. In fact, there have been several phone calls to my office expressing concern uh by people who were offended by the uh unacceptable language and the labels that were used in that article. The media of course can influence and reinforce a public perceptions of people with disabilities. They can use words and present images that create positive images and views by the public or those that create very negative views. Mr. Speaker, the greatest challenge uh to disabled people in this province of course is public attitude and the barriers uh that that present to disabled people and it's my hope that the media will become a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem. I can tell the member that I have written a letter to the editor of the Globe and Mail to express my concerns. >> Supplementary. >> Minister, everyone has a responsibility to help break down those barriers of attitude. And Minister, it's it's not the first time where I've noticed the use of undesirable terms in the media. And what is your office doing to correct the usage of these terms? Minister >> Speaker, the Office for Disabled Persons has published a lexicon of preferred terms of disability issues and it's uh called word choices. This lexicon was sent to all members of the legislature as well as all members of the media. In fact, the office for disabled persons held a briefing for the media to make them aware of this publication and to make them more sensitive to this issue. to answer the member's uh question directly. I can tell him that my office monitors the media regularly and when uh improper uses or terms are used to describe people with disabilities, we send a copy of this lexicon. Oral questions and responses.