Question Period Rewind - March 26 1990

Hi everyone, welcome to Question Period Rewind. I'm Donna Skellyy, the speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. Get ready to travel back to 1990. The Hubble Space Telescope launched into orbit and at home, technology was starting to evolve. Everyone was excited to try the first Microsoft Office released for Windows, bundling Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. We also saw Adobe release a new signature product, Photoshop. Now, let's see what the house was up to. Oral questions. the leader of the opposition. Mr. >> Speaker, I I have a question for the uh Minister of the Environment. It's about water quality and it relates in particular to the uh to findings uh of chemical contamination uh in wells in the Hagersville area. Uh, I want to ask the minister why it is that officials from his ministry are telling farmers that there's no problem uh with uh they're using the Sandus Creek uh for their uh farm animals when in fact we know that uh the carcinogen NDMA has been found at 14 parts per trillion in a private well uh near the site. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if you can tell us, the minister can tell us why his ministry continues to say that there are no problems when in fact the evidence of chemical contamination is there for all to see. Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, the >> know that in fact uh our ministry indicated some time ago that we would be on the site and the adjacent area for some period of to come to uh be doing all of the extensive testing necessary to ensure that we're able to detect any contamination either on site or adjacent to the site. And I can assure the member that we will continue to do so uh indefinitely. I mean for months and years to come to determine whether there is migration and if there is uh any migration from the site itself that we will ensure that uh it is part of the cleanup >> supplementary speaker I don't think the minister answered my question so perhaps I can try uh another route uh it's been reported to uh to us Mr. speaker that levels as high as 1,900 parts per billion of benzoapyne which is also a known carcinogen have been found in the runoff water from the site before the treatment at the on-site treatment plant and Mr. Speaker, the question that I have for the minister is, can he give us today the categorical assurance that the water that is coming out of the treatment plant is in complete compliance with the drinking water guideline being used by thee that there should only be 10 parts per trillion of benzoapy. >> Minister, >> well, Mr. Speaker, our uh treatment plant, as you know, is down at the present time for maintenance because the as you know, when you have carbon filtration in a a plant of this kind, you must continue to uh replace the filters uh from that particular plant. And we uh do the testing of the uh water first of all as it goes in. It's water that's already in there. And the water then that would be prepared for discharge. And uh I can tell the member that our uh people who are on the site have done that very extensive testing and uh have assured that it meets all of the necessary water standards before there's a discharge. I can tell the member as well that uh on the site itself there will continue to be replacement of any of those filters and that's what happens with a carbon treatment system as it becomes necessary to ensure that in fact there's a catchment system for any contamination. >> Final supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister can uh perhaps uh clarify something for me. I I I from Missouri in this regard. Back in 1985, the uh leader of the Liberal Party, Mr. speaker, who is still the leader of the Liberal Party, responded to the Project for Environmental Priorities, and uh when he was asked the question, "Do you support the establishment of a safe drinking water act which would guarantee Ontario citizens the right to safe drinking water?" The leader of the Liberal Party responded with a definite yes to that simple and direct question. Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister will know that the federal government only tests for some 50 chemicals and that the water the the the water guidelines for Canada which are established by the federal government do not cover over 900 chemicals that have now been found in the waters of uh of the Great Lakes. I want to ask the minister this simple question. Why would an answer given in 1985 when the leader of the Liberal Party says yes to the question about safe drinking water and the need for an act in Ontario, why would your answer last last week when you said, "Oh, no, that's not up to us. That's all a federal responsibility." Why would you give us that kind of a falderall when just 5 years ago your leader was ready to say, "Yes, we need standards for Ontario and they need to be enforceable." Why the change? >> Minister. Uh first of all, I want to uh I I guess I'll answer the last question first. Uh Mr. Speaker, to say that we of course have adopted in the province of Ontario a drinking water surveillance program which looks for some 180 potential contaminants and measures in such things as parts per trillion and parts per quadrillion of any substances that might potentially be found in water. and it's the most extensive program I think that you'll find virtually in any jurisdiction that allows us to have a good look at the drinking water in the province of Ontario and take any remedial action necessary. Uh in regard to his other questions, I uh Mr. Speaker, I know that uh an advisory was given to area people on the use of Sandus Creek advising that it not be used. I know as well that uh it's my understanding that there is uh no benzoapyne in the treated water that would be discharged uh from uh that particular plant in the area. So uh I can say that with the very extensive program that we have in the province of Ontario with the considerable amount of money that we're spending on such things as uh uh the member would be aware of uh both water and sewer projects in the province of Ontario and with the uh activities that that we have undertaken in terms of of uh the cautions on waste management and the comments on on new developments that take part in the pro take place in the province. I can assure the member that that has a very positive effect on the protection of water. >> You're here leader the >> minister of community and social services. >> Uh Mr. Speaker, uh before the house uh came into session, I was uh uh in Ottawa uh meeting with uh many many groups of people who are running uh centers that uh provide food uh of an emergency kind to uh people of all ages. Uh nearly half the people who use the food banks and who use the grocery services and the emergency services in Ottawa, as in the rest of the province, are uh are children. Mr. Speaker, question that I have for the minister is uh all these groups have come together, Mr. Speaker, because many of them have been cut off, denied access to funds from the ministry uh and indeed many of them are no longer able to provide services that they were providing up until uh the end of February. I want to ask the minister, does he really think it either fair or wise to cut off the emergency programs, Mr. Speaker, with regard to food, when we know that the need in fact has not fallen away, that the need has not declined, that there are people who are still hungry and still in need of emergency services when it comes to eating. >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the uh honorable member is aware, uh a year ago, uh it was decided that the emergency program in terms of the food portion would be uh phased out uh because of the major reforms that came in in terms of the social assistance review uh with the additional dollars that were going to be provided for basic shelter and for basic needs including uh food. Now, that was a program of some $415 million. the emergency program was approximately 1 and a half million. I would say to uh my honorable friend that a large portion almost half of that will be continuing in terms of providing assistance for uh those uh centers that are providing a variety of uh of daycare uh programs. But it was our belief that where the money should go in terms of food was into the basic uh subsidy and to provide more money for the basic shelter >> supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, you've all the minister turns out all you've done is when bringing in the program, the SARKC reforms is you've you've taken money away from from shelters like the Shepherds of Good Hope and you've transferred it over. But you still haven't solved the basic problem. Mr. Speaker, between 86 and 89, the Shepherds of Good Hope, which is a a refuge in uh in Ottawa, the number of uh of people served by the grocery program rose from 20,000 people to some 41,000 people in 1989. Now, Mr. Speaker, they asked the government for nearly 340,000. They've got 44,000. I want to ask the minister, do you really think it's good, fair, or right to take money away from these programs and from these people when the need is still there? You don't have any reason to believe that your program is changing the demand for food. It isn't. >> Question. >> Mr. Speaker, I think that uh in deciding to go the route that we did with the social assistance reforms, it was precisely because we believe that that is the way to have a real impact on the needs that people have around shelter and around uh uh emergency assistance and around shelter. And we are beginning to see as was stated before the uh committee the standing committee on social development uh that the number of of people who are on social assistance who are seeing their income grow during uh the course of the last four or five months uh is significant and that is going to provide more money in the pockets of those on social assistance to provide for uh food and other necessities. We realize that that and that by itself has not resolved the entire pro problem, but we're convinced that the best way to approach this matter is through key focused long-term reform uh and not just by providing small sums of money in individual programs. We think the results are starting to come in and that those will begin to show a decline in the need for these special programs. >> Final supplementary, the member for atobico. I'm sure the minister will acknowledge that his social assistance reforms that he has implemented do absolutely nothing for the single, for the working poor or for the disabled and many of these people are the ones that are using these food banks at the present time. Is he aware that uh at the Rexdale Food Bank there hasn't been any decrease in the number of requests for assistance in either January or February and that as of March 31st that food bank is going to have to close as a result of his cutbacks? What does he intend to do with all of those people that need food in Rexdale and so many other communities, the working poor, the single, and the disabled? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would not accept that the social assistance reforms do not uh benefit all of those who require social assistance. In fact, uh we can see that the amount of uh of funding that is going to individual recipients uh has gone up since they were implemented. And remember again, we're talking here about a program of some $415 million. Again, uh we've said that those will not totally resolve all the problems around poverty. You say that none of this will help uh the working poor and yet if you look at the support to employment program that program very specifically is an income supplementation model of program where all people who apply for that and are eligible will be able to receive assistance. I think one has to look at the broad front on which we moved in terms of those social assistance reforms and to see that they are having an impact where there are individual or specific problems through our area offices. We will continue to work with those centers to try to help them in the best way we can. But I believe that as a government we have said that our priority must be to go at fundamental reform of the system. >> New question. >> The member for Leeds Grrenville. >> Uh thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Financial Institutions. The minister will know that the Canadian Bar Association has a legal opinion from an eminent lawyer, Gordon Henderson, whose work the attorney general is quite familiar with, stating clearly that there is reasonable doubt that Bill 68 is constitutional. Yet the legislation and uh is urging you to refer the legislation to the court of appeal for a reference. As well, the government has refused to provide us with a copy of its legal opinion on the matter. Uh Minister, is the government prepared to be fair to everyone and refer Bill 68 to the Court of Appeal for a reference? >> Minister. >> Um Mr. Speaker, we will not be referring the bill to the court of appeal for reference. As the honorable gentleman knows, that's an unusual step and very seldom in fact used uh uh by legislative assembly. We likewise have opinions and uh have found that uh the bill is constitutional in accordance with the opinions that we have received. >> Supplementary. Now, Mr. Speaker, innocent accident victims who suffer psychological uh injuries will have to wait two or three years for a for a constitutional decision on this matter. Uh these accident victims already have one strike against them with the disabilities they will have to endure. Yet, the government is bent on creating another strike against them by forcing them to to wait for a constitutional decision. Why doesn't the minister have the attorney general refer the bill to the court of appeal for reference? Why don't you do it, >> Minister? >> Uh, Mr. Speaker, >> thing to do and you know it. >> Oh, sorry. >> It's a >> Sorry, >> Mr. Speaker. It's um it's the usual practice uh for me to try and set the honorable gentleman straight about the merits of Bill 68, the new auto insurance bill. And in fact, I should do that now at the outset to indicate that the bill provides better compensation for people who are injured in Ontario than was previously been the case. as he knows, we've moved uh from $140 a week now to $600 a week. That we have long-term care, which goes from uh instead of $1,500 a week, as it previously was set, up to $3,000 a week, so that people who have problems associated with accidents will receive those benefits uh without having to prove uh through the court system uh their uh their uh disabilities. He knows full well that those are new benefits in place now without having to go to the courts and he should acknowledge to the people of Ontario that there is a new way of providing compensation and support for those people which was not in existence at all uh prior to this bill coming forward. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that he should uh very clearly state that this is a better way of providing support for those individuals. that in fact it takes the burden from the shoulders of people who used to have to wait four or five years to figure out whether or not the courts would provide any assistance whatsoever. In this case, those people are going to receive >> final supplementary. >> Speaker, the minister and his colleagues haven't only failed to set me straight on this issue. Obviously, according to the Angus Reed poll results this morning, have failed to uh to influence a majority of Ontarians are strongly opposed to your legislation. Mr. Mr. Speaker, the uh the president of Kingsway General Insurance Company, Mr. William Starr, has put the premier on notice that should the government proceed with Bill 68 without a court reference, his insurance company would hold the province responsible for all claims or costs it would have to pay should legislation be ruled unconstitutional. Mr. Speaker, we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in claims. If the minister is not prepared to ask for a constitutional reference, is he prepared to compensate the insurance industry and innocent act accident victims? And if so, where's that money going to come from? >> Minister. >> Uh Mr. Speaker, I'm aware of the letter which was sent by Mr. Star at the urging of one of the directors of his board uh Mr. Glstein, as I understand it, who is a member of the fair committee. Um we have information that indicates quite clearly that Mr. Bxin has been advocating with the parent company um that in fact such a letter be sent and he obviously has had his way with with Mr. Star and I feel I I don't feel that there is any real uh problem in accepting Mr. Gluten's opposition to the bill. He has stated it very specifically and very thoroughly before and we accept that as a as a presentation. We do know this Mr. Speaker about the bill. We do know that it will provide quicker compensation for people involved in accidents. We know that in fact that it does provide disincentives for people who cause accidents by ensuring that there will be increased premiums being paid by those people responsible. We do know, Mr. Speaker, that there will be better support both in supplementary medical and rehabilitative services and long-term care. We do know that that all goes into this bill. And we do know, Mr. Speaker, quicker payout to those people means a better way of taking care of ACT accident victims in a more humane fashion. >> Thank you. New question, the member for Sarnia. >> Uh, thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Energy. Uh, Madame Minister, you're aware that there is a strong possibility that a hydro strike may occur within the next week. You're also aware that uh uh coming on the heels of that there's a possibility as well that the nuclear system could be shut down as early uh as Thursday or the latter part of this week in anticipation of a potential strike. Uh could you indicate to us what role the government is playing in connection with attempting to resolve this matter prior to it uh uh arriving at a position somewhat similar to 1985 when in fact at a great cost to the province there was a strike that took place. Could you bring us up to date on your actions to date? >> Minister. >> Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And uh the honorable member's question uh as he's phrased it might most appropriately be addressed to my colleague the minister of labor because indeed the ministry of labor has been very closely monitoring the collective bargaining situation in fact has a mediator working with the situation. Uh there is in fact an offer being voted on at the present time and uh I think we have to have the focus on um the expectation and hope that there will be a resolution at the collective bargaining table. >> Supplementary. Well, I'm glad you didn't refer the question, Madam Minister, because my supplementary was for you as well, obviously, and it relates to the positions being taken by Ontario Hydro and the Union in connection with what might happen. Ontario Hydro is indicating there there will be a strong possibility of either blackouts or brownouts occurring as a result of part of the system not being available for operation. Uh, primarily the nuclear dimension to the system. The union is indicating that surplus power can be purchased from Quebec, Manitoba or US uh jurisdictions in order to make up the shortfall. I wonder if you could indicate since there is a potential tremendous cost to consumers, homeowners, industry, if there is any disruption of power flow to uh residents of the province of Ontario. what contingency plans are in place uh with respect to power needs that we can anticipate and secondly who is right either the union or Ontario Hydro in connection with what's going to happen if there is a strike >> minister >> well thank you Mr. speaker and I think clearly the difficulty would be one of attempting to predict a situation which might be in place if in fact there was not a successful resolution of of this issue at the collective bargaining table. Again, our focus right now is on the collective bargaining process and our hopes that it will be resolved at the collective bargaining table. There is obviously a concern that should in fact that resolution not take uh place and should there be some disruption uh in in work that we would have to have and expect hydro to have in place contingency plans to deal with any interruption of service. However, the the very nature of the contingency plans that would be required would depend on such factors as would there be in fact a full work stoppage. Uh would it be would it affect different areas um differentially and also what would be available to hydro at a particular time. Hydro has felt it appropriate and I would agree to advise their customers that in the event of any work stoppage there could be some disruption in service. We would expect that they would minimize any disruption through contingency plans. Final supplementary, the member for Durham East. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary to the Minister of Energy. Following along my leader's first question, Madam Minister, I had the opportunity of being visited my writing office on Friday by three representatives of QP Loco 1000 of the Darlington generating station, Mr. Melnik, Mr. Begs, and Mr. Tutluck. and they indicated to me some concerns of Ontario Hydro bargaining in good faith with their representatives. And I too have similar concerns because I want to remind the minister that over the last number of months, Ontario Hydro and my own municipality of the town of Newcastle have been at continual loggerheads with all kinds of press concerning the dialogue over the emergency plan process at the Darlington generating station. And I had the opportunity of forning the chairman of Ontario Hydro asking him to meet with the mayor of the municipality to try to start a dialogue. He has yet to do it. So I too am concerned. Have you made any effort so far to speak with the chairman of Interior Hydro to ensure that his and his staff's approach concerning the possibility of a strike will be in an open fair manner and very amicable to negotiating the possible settlement before the strike? >> Order. Order. I'm sure there was a question there somewhere. member uh places the supplementary question. I'm rather regret that I had not referred the question to the minister of labor because again the question focuses on what is a collective bargaining situation taking place right now. That is the government's focus as I know it is the focus of both the union and the and the management of Ontario Hydro and that is an appropriate focus. Uh I have had opportunities to talk with both union representatives as well as management representatives so that I'm fully apprised of of the situation. My focus as Minister of Energy will be to ensure that Ontario Hydro does in fact have contingency plans in place to deal with any eventuality. But as you correctly suggest in your question, the focus right now is on the collective bargaining uh table and the successful resolution of the issues there. >> New question, the member for Scarboro West. Mr. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education and Colleges and Universities and regards the asbestous problem that has been identified recently in the Metropolitan Toronto uh separate school system specifically but elsewhere as well. Uh Mr. given that the uh the province is responsible in general for health and safety of its uh citizens and that it establishes the standards and procedures uh for asbestous uh removal and and abatement. Uh and since in the past the provincial government has in fact paid money out of its budget for the cleanup in the schools especially between 1979 and 1984. Is it the minister's intention to work out a arrangement with the boards of education of the province in particular in this case uh to uh to uh put provincial dollars into the abatement of this obvious problem which is causing a great deal of males out there in in society. >> Minister >> Mr. Mr. Speaker, uh through you to my friend from Scarbor, I can tell him that he is he is right to observe that over the past decade, the uh the Ministry of Education has paid out, I think, close to $40 million to school boards, uh as part of an asbestous abatement program. And it is also true that the Ministry of Education uh is still quite prepared to accept uh submissions from school boards through their regular capital expenditure forecast for uh for additional asbestous abatement requests. >> Supplementary. >> The minister knows of course that trying to put that into your capital forecast given the difficulties that are out there for boards these days and renovation is is enormously difficult. You're also the minister of colleges and universities and perhaps I can redirect to him uh around his his responsibilities because I have a letter here from President Arthur's at York University as of last December about some of the problems at Osgood Gos Hall where asbestous has been identified as a problem and he indicates to me that the coou the council of universities indicates that they estimated recently that the cost of removal of asbestous and abatement of asbestous problems at the university level would be $84 million. Does not the same principle apply that this government has responsibility not those institutions or those boards in particular but you have responsibility for making sure that those students are safe. I don't know about you sir but over the last number of years I've had friends die of misotheloma and of asbestous poisoning suggest that we don't >> question was asked minister >> speaker I want to assure my honorable friend from Scarra and the people of Ontario that the government uh takes very seriously its responsibilities in so far as the the monitoring of the asbestous hazard and its uh its um redress. We have uh as I indicated earlier appropriated uh tens of millions of dollars uh in the school system to address the needs and I quite prepared to entertain submissions from both the elementary secondary part of education as well as the post-secondary uh uh institutions as well. I'm sure that my honorable friend would have heard this morning uh uh Fraser Mustard uh who I thought reviewed the findings of the Royal Commission of some years ago uh uh to very very great effect and I can assure you I thought uh I thought Dr. Mustard's observations were very telling and I intend to deal very very directly uh with requests from both colleges and universities and from school boards in consideration of their concerns in this in this matter. New question, the member for Burlington South. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Labor. Today, over a thousand children will not be attending Our Lady of Victory and St. Mary's of the Angel Schools in York Region because their parents are afraid of the uh potential risks of exposure to uh friable asbestous. According to a press release issued by your ministry uh dated March 2nd uh you indicate that uh all school boards have submitted documentation I quote directly from your own press release and that was compliance uh and documentation with respect to the risks at the uh and identification of specific schools. Can you uh tell me uh minister given that you now have this information, can you tell the parents of these two schools whether or not uh they are in compliance with uh with your regulations? >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And uh it was yesterday, I guess, that at uh at one of those schools, Our Lady of Victory, our inspectors completed their work and uh their conclusion was that the school is safe for the students. I might add that the the very extensive Royal Commission on asbestous recommended Mr. Speaker that in virtually every case it is best to manage the asbestous within the building rather than remove it. So in this particular case our inspectors have been through that facility in some considerable detail. uh we have have uh satisfied ourselves that the facility is is safe for the students to be in and we have informed the school board orally of that and I think we'll be doing that in in writing today Mr. Speaker >> supplementary. >> So apparently the position of your government is that the concerns of parents are unfounded at least in those two schools. But my question to you specifically was was with the actual information which school boards have given you minister with respect to compliance with your regulations. I mean you have regulations for a reason. We would assume that it has to do with the safety and the health of the children and the teachers and workers in a given school, any given school in Ontario. You have the list. You can identify the schools. Will you make that information public so that parents can distinguish between those schools which your own regulations tell them are at risk and those schools are not. You have the information. Will you make it public today? >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I I I begin my answer by uh assuring the parents at the at the of the students at Our Lady of Victory of the of the work that our our ministry staff have been doing and that uh which has been quite a thorough investigation of that particular facility and that in our judgment after that investigation that the school is safe. Uh we also have reviewed with the Metropolitan Separate School Board their program for complying with the regulation. We reviewed that as recently as I think Friday and we are satisfied that that program uh properly implemented will indeed ensure that the school board complies with our regulations. Thank you Mr. Speaker. >> New question. The member for Ottawa West. >> Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services. As the Minister would know, last fall his ministry provided funding for capital and startup costs for a muchneeded and very appreciated nonprofit multicultural child care center in my writing of Ottawa West. Having visited uh this new center myself, I know firsthand that the new facility is now up and running successfully, and for your assistance, the community is truly appreciative. However, Mr. Minister, in order to ensure its continued financial viability, it is my understanding that this center along with three other new facilities in Ottawa Carlton are anxiously awaiting an announcement regarding the provision of subsidized spaces. Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is this. Given that these new centers missed out on the 1989 90 subsidized space allocations for Ottawa Carlton, what is the possibility of the minister preflowing 1990991 allocations to these very needy and deserving facilities? >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I'm delighted that the new multicultural center is is functioning very well. As the uh honorable member is is perhaps aware, over the last uh five year five years, we've seen the uh growth in the Ottawa Carlton area in child care spaces of uh some over 2,000 from 2400 to 4,400. Uh and the amount of money that has been going into the Ottawa Carlton area from uh some 8 million to almost 19 million. We recognize that the demand continues. One of the factors that we have to consider in the allocation of spaces is that as some of the major urban centers were quick off the mark in terms of uh obtaining spaces, now many other parts of the province, particularly rural areas, uh are also making their demands known. But I can assure the honorable member uh that we are trying to meet the needs that are there and that while this ministry does not preflow funds, we are at that point where we hope very shortly to have all of our allocations in hand for the next fiscal year. >> Thank you. Supplementary. >> Yes. My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, uh to the minister is this. At the present time, these four centers are operating without any subsidized spaces whatsoever. Uh can the minister give these centers any comfort at all that in the foreseeable future they will have some subsidized spaces? >> Minister. >> Uh Mr. Speaker, uh that is of course an issue that we're looking at very carefully and as I said we hope to be able to make an announcement on that uh shortly. Uh I would say given in particular that it is the Ottawa area that the honorable member is speaking about uh that it would do well for uh those active in the child care uh uh area to uh speak with federal members and with the federal government about the fact that they have cut the uh funding that they're making available under the Canada assistance plan and they have not as yet come forward with any new proposals uh since they unilaterally withdrew the child care program that they had promised to bring in. >> New question. The member for Alma. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the premier regarding the devastating economic situation in Elliot Lake where Rio Algam has announced 1600 workers to be laid off at the end of this year and Dennis and Mines's 450 workers by the end of August of this year. Um, in 1982, Mr. Speaker, uh the premier when he was in opposition questioned why Ontario Hydro under the previous government was not prepared to pay quote above the world price to Madawaska mines for uranium to keep that community bankraftoft going unquote. In view of the position taken at the time of the Braftoft closure, is the premier prepared now to make a commitment that Ontario Hydro will purchase the uranium it needs for its nuclear generating plants in this province as long as it is operating nuclear generating plants from Ontario sources, specifically Elliot Lake. >> Premier, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the honorable question, the question the honorable member raises. as as my honorable friend knows um the problems in Elliot Lake are not just a function of Ontario Hydro's contracts but other contracts around the world as well. And I know and I know he knows that and I also know that he knows that Ontario Hydro is paying a very considerable subsidy. In other words, way above world price. I'm sorry I can't tell my honorable friend exactly the figures now, but as I understand it, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, it's roughly double the amount that uh that um uh where uranium can be purchased on the open market, particularly in other parts of Canada, as my friend will know in Saskatchewan. So in in a sense, Ontario Hydro, the consumers of of hydro are paying a direct subsidy into that community. That's something that's gone on for a long period of time, and it's been a matter of long discussion. As my honorable friend knows, I think there are one can make an argument that there are enormously good reasons for purchasing things inside the the province of Ontario, but obviously my friend will be aware that that's a source of irritation with some of our other sister provinces who feel that they should be bidding fairly on uh on on uranium and have access into our purchasing power. So there's there's many sides to this question. One of the re other realities is that Elliot Lake is a wonderful community with a highly developed infrastructure and really quite a a wonderful place to visit and it's a great tragedy to see this massive uh these massive number of layoffs that are coming there. I don't have a quick and easy answer to my honorable friend's question except to say that I know there will be some purchases by Ontario Hydro. I can't tell you exactly the mix. It is imperative that they are sensitive to the realities of that community. I can tell my honorable friend that a number of my colleagues led by the minister of northern affairs and and others uh are working closely and and the the and the member uh from Aloma Manatulan as well is working very very closely with that community uh looking for alternatives and looking for solutions. We've had other problems and sorry >> thank you >> supplementary Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the premier and with regard to the efforts of the minister of northern development and my colleague from AO Manatulan in conjunction with the people of Elliot Lake and the Northshore. But wouldn't the min the premier uh agree that by making such a commitment by Ontario Hydro uh the communities of Elliot Lake, Blind River and other and the Northshore would have more time to adjust and to uh work out strategies for diversification if they had some idea of a length of time and and volumes of purchases that Ontario Hydro was prepared to make so that we could move ahead and try to alleviate the devastation of the economy that will result from the company's downsizing due to world prices for uranium. Premier >> my honorable friend raises a puts forward a suggestion and it's and it's a constructive one and I can tell the honorable member the member from government of Manito has been working on these particular matters and obviously it's imperative that Ontario Hydro was sensitive to some of these realities and giving time to adjust as I understand it and I just can't recall again the information my fingertips some of these contracts are coming up for renewal in the not too distant future and there and that is why we're going to have to uh go through the entire matter but I can assure my honorable friend that this government will respond in every way it can. I just see by accident that the mayor of Kirkland Lake uh is in the um is in the gallery today and I'm sure he would be the first one to tell you that when he had troubles in that area and tomogamy and Kirkland Lake area that closed down the mines this government responded with a number of programs of diversification diversification we want to be very very sensitive to the communities that are subjected to these kinds of problems. So I can I know I can count on my honorable friend's advice and help along the way as we develop these alternative strategies. >> He doesn't have the problems you have. >> New question. The member for London North. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services. Uh Mr. Mr. Minister, you know, um in the field of mental children's mental health that we've had waiting lists now for over two or three years for some 10,000 young young children. And right now in Ontario, the mental health centers are telling us uh in fact that these children are have been subjected to abuse. Um they've been subjected to family violence. Uh they're having trouble mentally and they really need desperately our help. They have a right to treatment, Mr. Minister, and right now if they were looking for health services like a broken leg or cancer treatment, they would get that service right away. But they're not. It's called a mental health problem. and they don't have the kind of access that you and I would like them to have. 10,000 children over three years. What is the minister deciding to do about it? We need a plan of action. >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I thank my honorable friend for her question. I think there's a great deal that the ministry and and the government are doing in working in the broad range of children's services. And I think it's awfully important that in looking at the problems uh in the children's mental health area that we recognize that there are problems throughout the children's services area. And the way we're going to resolve those is by bringing all the players together and coming forward with a comprehensive approach. It was this reason uh why my predecessor created a special advisory committee on children's services uh which is uh is meeting and we'll be bringing in a report. It's chaired by Dr. Dr. Colin Maloney and what that committee is doing is looking at particular problems in the children's mental health area and children's uh welfare area uh young offenders across that broad spectrum. Now I have uh met with the executive of the children's mental health uh association of Ontario. We've looked at a number of specific things that we can work on in the interim uh and I have agreed that once Dr. for Maloney's report is completed that I would be quite prepared to sit down with them and look at how we can go about moving on the recommendations of the Maloney report. >> Supplementary. >> Thank you uh Mr. Speaker. Mr. Minister, I understand that you are meeting and having discussions around the Maloney report and I guess my plea today would be speed it up while we're talking while we're talking about what we already know about and have known about for some three years right now. There are more children added to waiting lists right across the province of Ontario and I can speak specifically for Madame Vanet Children's Center in London which the premier should know something about and certainly the member from London South and I can speak on behalf of other members of this house Mr. Mr. Minister as they have been as it has been brought to their attention from the children's mental health centers in their own areas. I guess my question to my right now would be when are you going to finish your discussions with Mr. Maloney, what we really need is an overhaul of the system with new mandates for this special service for children's mental health. When will you do it and when can we expect a brand new review independent of the one that's going on now? >> Minister, >> thank you. Uh Mr. Speaker, I would say one of the specific things that we are doing with the uh Children's Mental Health Association uh is working together very uh directly on the question of the uh the waiting lists and to see how we can uh uh assist various centers that uh uh with the waiting lists and having people perhaps treated in in other centers. Uh we're also looking at some specific problems around uh uh funding and around salaries of people who work in those centers. the Maloney report uh I will be receiving that uh in June and uh what we want to do is to uh move fairly quickly with that report precisely because it is going to be looking at the the broad area and what uh we've asked is that all of the major players uh work together work with us uh so that we can go forward and implementing recommendations that come from that report because I think it is in all of our interest clearly to try to provide the best help for all children uh who require mental health services. >> New question. The >> the member for Hamilton Center. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> To the Minister of Labor. Mr. Minister, the St. Elizabeth Nursing Home in my writing is due to close in August of this year. The nursing home was taken over by the Ministry of Health in 1987 and subsequently three local nursing homes were awarded replacement licenses to locate the residents. The question of staff relocation is not settled and is resulting in frustration and fears amongst the workers. The workers are represented by the Ontario Nurses Association and Local 532 of the Service Employees International Union. It has been reported that Local 532 is applying to the Labor Relations Board for succession rights. Would the minister provide me with an update on this representation to the Labor Relations Board? >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I know this is a a matter of some considerable interest to the member and so I I would be pleased to bring her an update on the on the situation as I understand it. I I believe that last week the union did in fact apply to the labor relations board uh under the appropriate sections as well as I'm told under the successor rights of the crown transfer act. Um, I think the member would appreciate that because that is now before the Ontario Labor Relations Board, a labor relations officer uh has been or will be appointed shortly to deal with the matter that that now is a matter that the the uh labor relations board will be taken under consideration, but uh as of last week, the union had brought that uh that proposal forward to the labor relations board and is now in their hands. Mr. speakers >> supplementary >> the need uh for confidentiality and allowing the board to uh pursue its own uh um uh procedures. However, I understand that there is a an obstacle in terms of being able to act proactively and that is that uh applications may be accepted only after the transfers have taken place. Could you clarify me for me the rules governing the timing of applications for succession rights in these or similar circumstances? >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I I believe that both the labor relations act and the successor rights act provide that in the event of a sale of a business or a transfer of undertaken within the meaning of the acts that any existing collective agreement andor bargaining right should continue in force until the relevant board or tribunal declares otherwise. So I know that your concern uh the member's concern Mr. speaker is around the rights of the of the uh employees and if in fact they fall within the meaning of of the appropriate uh relevant sections of the act those collective agreements would continue in force until the appropriate tribunal has made its decision. >> New question the member for Nepagon >> Merc. My question is to the minister of energy. The minister will recall vividly that Robert Franklin, one of your friend Minister down here at Ontario Hydro, the chairperson of Ontario Hydro announced last week that hydro rates for Ontario consumers 9 months from now, January 1st, 1991, will go up by a minimum of 12%. An increase of this magnitude, Minister, is nothing short of a devastating effect for the people of the north. It hurts the people of the north. It hurts their economy. it urged their future. When will you take your responsibility and stop this unfair gouging at the expense of northerners? >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Um, I am aware of the reference the honorable member makes to a speech that the chairman of Ontario Hydro gave in which he indicated that rates could be as high as 12% increase for 1991. But I would want to inform the honorable member and the house that Ontario Hydro has in not in fact tabled its rate increase proposals for 1991 with me at the point of time at which they do that and I would expect that to be by the end of April. We will refer that to the Ontario Energy Board for their review of the various factors that would have to be considered. It would be appropriate for me to comment more specifically at that time. >> Supplementary. >> Thank you, Minister. The humor becomes the minister. The fact is, Minister, the sad reality is that Ontario Hydro can pretty well do whatever it wishes. That's right. >> For instance, last year the Ontario Energy Board that you referred to recommended 3.6% for electricity rate. And yet the taxpayers of Ontario paid a full 5.9%. Because of climatic condition in Northern Ontario, because of the rate structure in Northern Ontario, the rates are often double what they are in southern Ontario. Double standard indeed. Who's running the rate structure in Ontario, Madame Minister? Is it the jacko whose appetites are insatiable down the line on University Street? Or is it the premier of Ontario with the cabinet? Who's boss here? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I would certainly uh contest the suggestion that Ontario Hydro can do whatever it wants in terms of its rate increases. Ontario Hydro is mandated by the Power Corporation Act to provide power at the cost of providing that power. And in fact, the record has been one of considerable success in providing power at quite reasonable rates. However, I think that there are some realities that we have to recognize in the set of rate increases that may be proposed. And one of those realities is certainly the goods and services tax that has been introduced by the federal government. This will mean, Mr. speaker that for the first time electricity is taxed and that the cost of this tax will have to be incorporated in the rates that are charged for electricity in Ontario. That is obviously a concern to us in the effect that it has on an increase in electricity rates not just in Northern Ontario but across the province because we recognize that reasonable rates for our electricity is important to our economy both in Northern Ontario and in southern Ontario. >> New question, the member for Wellington. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is Minister of Environment. Minister, I understand that your ministry is in the verge of proclaiming new regulations to the Interior Pesticides Act, which would impose major conditions on the storage and transportation of all pesticides in Ontario. If your government is open, why would you refuse to consult with farm organizations who represent a major sector of interior's professional pesticide users such as egg care, agriculture groups concerned about resources and the environment? Why minister? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, uh when developing any regulation changes uh whether they relate particularly those which relate to the pesticides act uh we are always made aware by people who are interested in it the opinions that they happen to have on these matters. I get communications from time to time from a variety of people including those who uh are in the farming community as to what they believe should be done in the future uh where they the direction in which they feel we should be moving. In addition to that of course we have the pesticides advisory committee which uh has a representative there from the agricultural community and also consults with people in the agricultural community. I think there are representatives from the University of G for instance who are uh involved in uh uh many items related to agriculture and are familiar and in contact with the uh farming community. So I'm always interested in those opinions and uh would encourage people to bring those opinions uh forward. Supplementary >> supplementary Jeff Wilson, chairman of A Care, an organization which represents 45,000 producers, requested a meeting with you last spring. They're also waiting for a written confirmation of your oral commitment of April the 17th, 1989 on mandatory cert certification for users of agriculture pesticides. Minister, do you want their input? Have you any intention of meeting with egg care >> minister? >> Uh as the member may be aware of the relevant people within the ministry from on many occasions meet with the uh people who have specific concerns about specific regulations specifically those who are involved in the uh pesticides branch or the branch of the ministry of the environment that deals with pesticides. And I know that they have ongoing meetings with a number of people who bring forward their concerns. two people who are directly involved in the drafting of those regulations or suggestions on what might be in those regulations. Uh so we certainly encourage them to uh to do so. In terms of the other question that the member has uh our ministry has certainly given that undertaken. I was I was very pleased to see the kind of support uh from the farming community particularly of that mandatory uh aspect of of dealing with that problem because I've recognized that in in so many cases and you as a member representing a an area which has a large agricultural component would know that uh many of those people uh have been most helpful in encouraging others within that community uh to be more conscious of the potential problems with pesticides and indeed >> have been some of the best people in terms of assisting us in that regard. >> New question, the member for Durham West. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health. Madame Minister, the Ajax Pickering community has grown very rapidly to a population that is now over 100,000 people and is served by a hospital which has not seen substantial improvement since 1964 when the population was 33,000 people. I'm sure that you know that there's a great deal of support in the community for the expansion of that hospital, an expansion to meet the needs of the 90s. The Durham District Health Council has indicated that the Ajax Pickering Hospital expansion is their number one priority. Can the Minister reaffirm for the families of Ajax and Pickering the status of the hospital expansion? >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First, I'd like to acknowledge the member from Durham West. She has been an active uh representative on behalf of her constituency and making sure that the needs of her community are well known. I'd like to make it clear that the 14.7 million commitment from the Ministry of Health stands. We are aware that uh Durham Region District Health Council uh has identified the expansion of Ajax Pickering as its number one priority for Durham Region. uh as as she knows and as she says quite correctly uh the region has experienced rapid growth of particularly young families over the last few years and I wanted to uh say to her that as part of the ministry's capital framework we acknowledge the need to strengthen hospital services to meet future demographic growth projections >> supplementary >> thank you Mr. speaker and thank you madamit for clarifying the situation with the hospital. >> One of the things that's happened recently was a uh newspaper article in the uh local paper which stated that the 70 longterm care beds which were part of the hospital expansion had been cut from the plans. I'd like to know what is the status of long-term care for Ajax and Pickering and for Ontario and how we will meet the needs of our elderly and chronically ill in the future. >> Minister, >> uh thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and again, I'd like to thank the uh member from Durham West for the question. And in fact, the Ministry of Health together with the Ministry of Community and Social Services, the Office for Disabled Persons, and the Office for uh senior citizens is uh participating in long-term care reform in order to ensure that appropriate services are delivered in communities across this province in the best possible setting, whether that be uh in the hospital, in the institution, in the community, or in fact in people's homes. uh as the member mentioned uh I believe that there is a real opportunity that exists for Durham region to make the kind of decisions which will lead us all confidently into the next century. Uh there has been numerous consultation and after discussion with the district health councils and the hospital an agreement was reached to defer construction of the 70 long-term care beds pending the outcome of long-term care reform. I would repeat again that the capital commitment of $14.7 million stands firm and we are committed to meeting the needs of the people of Durham region. >> New question, the member for Cambridge. >> Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health. Minister, your responsibility is to ensure the proper health care of all the residents of Ontario. Do you as minister know the percentage of mentally ill inmates or inmates with psychiatric disorders requiring treatment that are being currently housed in our detention centers and provincial jails and who are not getting adequate psychiatric care. >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As the member opposite has uh referred to people who have been uh confined to correctional institutions, I would refer this matter quite properly to the minister of correctional services. >> Mr. Speaker, the minister cannot >> I I don't see the minister. >> Was that your answer? Well, supplementary to the answer, >> prefer this treat this this issue to the to the Minister of Correctional Services. The union studies estimate that 20 to 25% of inmates in provincial jails are actually mentally ill and are not receiving the treatment that they require. When will this Minister of Health recognize that incarceration without proper treatment simply means the warehousing of sick people getting sicker? And when will you as minister refuse to be a partner in the cover up and the neglect of the health needs of these inmates? When will you demand Thank you >> that these inmates receive the treatment they require? >> Supplementaries minister. >> Mr. Speaker, as the member opposite knows, it is not within the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Health to decide when a person is sentenced to a correctional institution. A psychiatrist recommends whether or not a person should be referred for inpatient treatment or to a mental health center. And he knows also that the courts decide whether or not persons are sentenced to jail or whether they are sent to psychiatric hospitals. People in psychiatric hospitals are not inmates, they are patients. >> New question, >> Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the solicitor general. >> That's how they're treated. >> Concerns replica handguns. >> That's how they're treated. an Ottawa city uh councelor uh Daryl Kent is proposing a bylaw to present to Ottawa council meeting uh next week which is similar to a bylaw which they have here in the city of Ottawa or city of Toronto which was implemented in January. That bylaw bans the manufacturer, sale and distribution of replica handguns. >> Canadian police chiefs as you know have been lobbying for this kind of legislation for some period of time. Why are municipalities having to bring forward their own bylaws instead of this government taking some action with regard to this matter in provincial legislation? Will your government call out my colleagues bill 145 which limits the sale of replica handguns for third reading as it is now in front of the legislature? >> Minister. >> Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. And I think the the member opposite raises a very important uh issue. I am well aware of the uh the member's piece of legislation and is certainly one which I have uh been looking at very closely. I think that we have to recognize that in dealing with the particular piece of legislation uh as to what uh its object is, what it is designed to accomplish. Currently, there are provisions within the criminal code of Canada which very much would address many of the concerns raised uh in the uh member's private piece of legislation. I think the member opposite should also be aware that in fact this is a matter which is very much within the scope and the jurisdiction of the federal government. Currently, it is a matter which uh I believe is one which could be uh best addressed and handled by the federal minister of consumer and corporate affairs in the whole question question of how these uh particular uh uh items are in the in the area of packaging. But I would like to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that is one which we have uh looked at that the criminal code of Canada currently does address much of the issue that uh is in the private members bill. And I believe that that is uh the best place and the most appropriate venue for this particular issue to be addressed. >> Excellent answer. >> Completes the allotted time for oral questions and responses.