Question Period Rewind - February 8 1989

Welcome to Question Period Rewind. I'm Donna Skellyy, speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. 1989, what a year. The legendary Daryl Sitler was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. In Ontario, the OHL season was fierce with the Peterborough Pets winning the J Ross Robertson Cup. But perhaps the biggest sports milestone for us was the opening of the Toronto Blue Jays Skydome. Now, let's see what some of the big milestones in provincial politics were at that time. [music] >> Oral questions. The leader of the opposition. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> [applause] >> Mr. Speaker, the uh Minister of Community and Social Services will no doubt know that employees uh uh from the uh union which represents many employees who work in group homes held a press conference this afternoon just before question period. And I want to focus in my questions on one particular request that they have made of the minister. And I want to ask him why it is that he has refused to guarantee that no worker in a group home will in fact be working alone either during the day or at night. It's such a basic request to quote from the union that is unless it is met it will mean that there will be more Celia Ryros and more Christrists and the government will be responsible. I wonder if the minister can tell us why has he continued to reject that very fundamental request from the workers who are whose lives are in fact at stake uh when it comes to caring for these kids. >> Minister, >> Mr. Mr. Speaker, uh as I indicated to the honorable member, I believe it was on Monday, but I can't be sure that we had uh we had immediately uh sent out word to all of our offices across the province to in turn contact all of the agencies that uh that deal with young offenders and ask them to uh to review their staffing practices in light of what they believed were particular needs. and that if they uh if they had that need then they should uh they should respond to it. However, in terms of making a blanket uh statement with respect to that issue, I've indicated that we are launching a review for that very purpose. >> Supplementary >> the workers who are out there can't wait for 90 days. Why wouldn't you? If you think it's a problem and if you've recognized it's a problem and you have because you've started the review, surely [snorts] that leads to the obvious question, why not do something until the review is at least completed? Mr. Speaker, if I could ask by way of supplementary, the uh male social workers who work in a group home where there are which is either mixed or where there are where there are women uh have asked and it has been decided that there will in fact be two always on staff at all times in order to protect people against any charges of sexual assault. Now, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the minister if it's good enough for the men who are being put in those situations, why isn't it good enough for the young women who are being put in situations where clearly now, and we know this is no exaggeration, their lives are in fact at risk, their health and safety is at risk. Why are you not doing the same for the women who are in those jobs as in fact the homes are doing for men who are in those jobs? Minister. >> Um, Mr. Speaker, uh, if I understood the honorable member's uh, first part of his question, uh, he seemed to be indicating that the decision has already been made that, uh, every worker in a in a single situation is automatically in danger. Uh, I don't know that and as a matter of fact, that is the purpose of the review. >> The the difference Listen, listen. >> Final supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, 15 years ago, there was a controversy about whether or not there should be one or two policemen in a police car at night. An arbitrator ruled that there should be two policemen. The lawyer in that case representing the police association is now the attorney general. The attorney general was persuaded at that time when he was in private practice that police officers who picked up criminals, police officers who picked up criminals and enforced the law, including the Juvenile Delinquent Act, needed to have two people because their lives were at risk. It's now a general practice in most municipal police forces that there are going to be two police officers in a police car at night. I want to ask the the Minister of Community and Social Services this question. If it's necessary that two police officers be on staff when picking up a young offender at 1:00 in the morning and it's been deemed that way since 197374. I wonder if the minister can tell us what is the logic of having one 19 or 20 yearear-old young woman on her own caring for that same young offender after that young offender has been put into a group home. Just what is the logic of that of that clearly discriminatory practice? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, the uh honorable member makes a an automatic connection which is not necessarily so. Uh I would uh I would expect that in most cases when that young offender is picked up at 1:00 in the morning, he would be put into a secure facility, not into an open custody facility. The second point is he makes the uh he makes the reference to the police. I would also have expected h although I don't know for sure that there was a reasonable thorough review before that decision was made. I am going through exactly the same process. New question, leader of the opposition. >> The fact of the matter is is that while the minister gets educated on what the problem is, people >> question. >> The question to which Minister Speaker, and I have a question for the Minister of Health. >> Um, Mr. Speaker, I've read numerous statements by the minister that she's made over a number of of years that basically the problem of shortages and the problem of uh of of weights and the problem of delays is essentially a Toronto problem and that in fact there is no there there other communities don't face these problems. Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the minister about a case of a woman in Thunder Bay, Mrs. Laura Forsight, who in May of 1988 was put on a waiting list for knee surgery. Uh she finally had her operation on December 30th, 1988, 7 months later. Uh Mr. Speaker, in correspondence with my colleague from Lake Nipagon, who's going to be asking a supplementary question, the administrator of the General Hospital of Port Arthur states that, and I quote, "Mr. Mr. Speaker, the waiting list for necessary orthopedic implant surgery in this hospital is very long. And she says, I can also tell you that in this hospital, we've experienced a shortage of anesthetist which has had a considerable impact on increasing the waiting list for all types of surgery. >> Question. >> I wonder if the minister can tell us is it still her view that this is essentially a Toronto problem? >> Minister, >> in fact, Mr. Speaker, I've said in this house to the leader of the opposition and to others that uh waiting times are not new and nor are they unique to Ontario. What I have said regarding Toronto is that even in Toronto, waiting times vary from procedure to procedure and from hospital to hospital >> supplementary. >> Speaker, I don't think the minister dealt with my question with respect to waiting list in Thunder Bay. Perhaps the minister could focus on this issue for a moment. The doctor involved who finally was able to perform the operation on Mrs. Forthise after a seven-month delay again writes and he says, "It is true that waiting lists have escalated almost to intolerable levels, which means that we have a problem of a different level from ones we've had before. At the present time, I have 90 patients waiting for total knee replacements. Patients that are waiting to be booked for surgery, but who as yet do not even have a specific date. I want to ask the minister again. In light of what I've just told her about the situation in the general hospital in Port Arthur, is it still her view that this is essentially a Toronto problem? >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh in the development of provision of health services around the province, we acknowledge that services are provided as close to home as possible and in many communities across the province. The choice of uh institution or hospital, the choice of physician. in fact uh can vary in the length of time that people wait and we know that physicians do their very best to priorize based on need. I can tell the leader of the opposition that the purpose of the independent health facilities act is to allow us to free up hospitals to do what they do best and to provide inpatient services and those services that require a hospital setting. But many of the new procedures that technology allows us to do in alternative ways, in fact, I believe will be addressed by that act and that that will be a benefit particularly in Northern Ontario as we look at many services that can be provided uh outside of the traditional institutional setting. Final supplementary, the member for Lake Nipagon. >> We've been telling the minister that there is a problem with waiting list for essential services uh in health in Northern Ontario. Mr. Speaker, the minister doesn't seem to wish to be intended on listening. Perhaps if she hears the word of a practicing surgeon in Tund Bay, the point will at least begin to register. This is what Dr. Porter says in his letter addressed to myself, Madame Minister, on January 26th, 1989. The surgical services provided at the Port Archer General Hospital traditionally over the years have been second to none in Canada. But these services are gradually being eroded away because of hospital cutbacks. The outlying physicians in Northern Ontario are increasingly becoming frustrated with long delays in getting into surgery and are consequently beginning to rely on other centers such as Winnipeg and areas in the United States for prompt service. In the latter course, Madame Minister, the so-called two-tier health system, a situation your government has been universally opposed to, will most certainly develop. My question to the minister is this. When will at long last the minister act to ensure that northerners are entitled and are the beneficiaries the recipient of a first class system, not the two-chair system that inevitably under the present system they risk finding themselves into. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we discussed at length during estimates numerous initiatives to uh provide uh access to effective quality care to the people of Northern Ontario. I'm particularly proud of the Northern Travel Grant Program and to the number of medical specialists that have been placed uh in communities in Northern Ontario and supported. But I would say to the member that he mis he misinterprets if he suggests that there have been any cutbacks in budgets in hospitals in this province. That is absolutely not true. The truth of the matter is that every hospital budget has increased since 198485. We have increased hospital budgets by $2 billion. This year there will be an additional $500 million taking the total to six billion dollars. Not one hospital budget has been cut back. >> New question. The member the member for Sarnia. >> Order. >> My question is to the minister of health as well, Mr. Speaker. And uh in uh anticipation of the debate that we're going to have uh later today with respect to the crisis in healthc care uh we have in fact been in touch with a number of the health providers and professionals in this province to determine from those who are on the front lines exactly what the problems are. And just to give you three examples madame minister of the concerns that they are expressing to us in our party. The on Ontario Chiropractic Association have indicated that there are significant legislative changes being that are taking place without warning or without consultation with their particular profession. The Ontario Nursing Association is concerned about a lack of interest on your part and the part of your ministry in resolving the nursing problems that we have been bringing to your attention in this house. the Ontario Medical Association. I don't think I need tell you that the doctors of this province have lost trust and confidence in the manner in which your ministry has dealt with their profession. The most recent example being the rather arbitrary increase that you gave them of 1.75%. My question to the minister is this. How can the minister hope to solve the present problems and the present crisis in healthcare when you and your ministry are seen as part of the problem rather madam minister than being part of the solution? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh to the leader of the third party, as I've said before in this house, we don't consider health care as a partisan issue. And in fact at the uh the meeting in Monton yesterday, ministers of health and finance from across this country agreed that in fact the challenges facing us in every province of this country are the same. We also agreed to work together cooperatively and to work together in consultation with the providers and the professionals in all of our provinces to seek the kind of innovative and affordable solutions that will allow us to maintain and preserve and enhance access to effective quality health care and appropriate health care in the future. >> Supplementary of quality health care. You also have to include in that context, Madame Minister, good management and good planning. And on August the 25th of last year, you indicated to the hospitals of this province that you were going to assist them in identifying certain areas where either cuts or reductions or some uh some types of uh of uh improved health delivery systems could be implemented in their particular institutions in order to help them meet the budget guidelines that you and your ministry had developed. Now, something longer than 6 months later from that date, you still have not followed up on the promise and the commitment you made to assist the hospitals in attempting to get their budget in below the guidelines that you have established as the maximum. How can you expect these people to have trust and confidence in the system when you don't fulfill the very commitments that you make to the health providers, in this case, the hospitals of this province? Minister. >> In fact, Mr. Speaker, the leader of the third party couldn't be more wrong. We've been working cooperatively with the Ontario Hospital Association on a transitional funding formula to make sure that the hospitals receive fair share of resources and that we have fair and appropriate funding for our hospitals. I would say to him that the level of consultation and cooperation with all of the associations speaks to their commitment to working with us cooperatively. The results of the conjoint review have been implemented and I can tell him we are making progress. >> Final supplementary. >> Well, I guess it's the old case of the minister not speaking to the same people that we're speaking to because certainly the people that we're talking to in the health field do not see that level of consultation, that level of trust and confidence that you seem to think is there and which is certainly not evident in the health system. Let me give you another example, Madame Minister, of why people are questioning some of the statements being made by you and your ministry with respect to how the health system is being run. Two years ago, your predecessor, who sits very close to you, made a promise to construct a new hospital in the Orangeville area. And your ministry now is indicating very clearly that you're not about to follow through on the commitment that was made by your predecessor. Now, if that's wrong, will you in fact commit again to the construction of that hospital? Or are we in fact in another position where two years ago one statement was made, namely that there was going to be a new hospital, a hospital in Orangeville, and now you're indicating something different than that. Those kinds of mixed confused signals cause >> order. The question was put Minister >> again, Mr. Speaker, the leader of the third party uh is not fairly representing the facts. As with other capital projects, the ministry provides twothirds of approved cost. In this case, in the case of uh Orangeville uh and the Duffren area hospital, the ministry committed to provide $20 million towards a $30 million project. It is very important for communities to plan within available resources and to work within the ministry's planning process. I can tell the leader of the third party that in fact ministry staff are working with the board to achieve that goal. >> New question, the member for Perry Sound. >> Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health as well. I'm sure that we all recognize, including the minister, the difficulty with waiting lists, time, number of procedures being performed with respect to cardiovascular surgery. Would it make sense to the minister to consider merging two of the three adult cardiovascular surgery units we now have in Metropolitan Toronto, namely TGH and the Western? Does it make sense to her to even talk about the merging of those two cardiovascular surgery units which would result in less procedures per year being done in Metropolitan Toronto? >> Good question, >> Minister. >> Mr. Speaker, uh in fact, I I'm not familiar uh with the premises or hypothesis that the member presents. I would say to him that we rely uh on advice from planners to uh who present proposals and recommend to us how we can best uh and most appropriately determine the services that should be available and how they can be provided in the most efficient and effective ways. If he has any suggestions or has gotten into hospital planning, I'd be interested to hear his ideas. >> Supplementary. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, if the minister's unaware of this, I find that rather alarming to say the least. Um, there was a think in on January the 24th. >> There was another one on February the 6th. There's going to be, for your information, another one on February the 11th. The recent record of cardiovascular surgery procedures in Metropolitan Toronto over the last few years since your government assumed power. Let me read them to you. 1985, you did 279. 1986, you did 2687. 1987, you did 2612. In 1988, you sunk to a new low of 2558. Last year, St. Mike's was capable of doing a,000 procedures. They did 650. Last year, Toronto General was capable of doing 1150. They did 950. And last year, Toronto Western was capable of doing 950, they did 958. A cardiovascular surgeon in the city estimates that the combined total of TGH and Western which was just over 1,900 last year. If those two facilities were to be merged, as is being proposed or considered by the hospital board of the Toronto Hospital, the best they could do is 1500 procedures a year. That's 400 less than they're doing now. Does this make any sense to you at all? >> Order. Order. >> Order. Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I cannot comment on a proposal by the Toronto Hospital Board uh which has not been presented to the ministry for review. He knows full well that the hospitals are given global budgets and they then allocate resources. My concern is the capacity in the whole system. I can tell him we know at the present time that the capacity in cardiovascular surgery in six centers and nine hospitals across the province is approximately 4,400 and is being increased as we know that the capacity needs have increased. I can tell him that at the present time we are reviewing that to determine that the hospitals who are uh able to provide that capacity are doing so in a coordinated and cooperative fashion. We're working together. Mr. Speaker, >> final supplementary. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, I find it very difficult to believe that the minister is not apprised of this situation because everybody else in the medical community seems to be apprised of it. >> That's right. >> In fact, the the nurses at the cardiovascular intensive care unit at Toronto Western Hospital wrote a letter to the members of the Toronto Hospital Board on February the 3 and they are very concerned about this proposed merger of the two cardiovascular units. Their unit ranks among the best. It is the best in Canada. It's among the best in the world and they have excellent morale. They sent a carbon copy to Mr. Vicory Stoutton. You will remember who he is, will you? Well, they say in part in their letter, "We strongly believe that the best corporate plans are based on strengthening one's assets, not destroying them. Recent media attention has highlighted the length of time patients in Ontario must wait for heart surgery. In healthcare, we have an obligation to be responsive to the needs of the public. We firmly believe that moving this and efficient program would impair the quality of care that we currently provide. It would take years to develop a program at the TGH site which incorporates >> order. >> You have a questionn are you going to assure us that this merger will not >> minister? >> Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member opposite and the members of this house that my goal is to make sure that people have access to the care that they need as quickly as the doctors say that they need it. I can tell him that the ministry has recently taken a program approach so that we can look across the province in the area of cardiovascular care as he knows in emergency health services and others such as mental health services to make sure that our coordinator in this case cardiovascular care knows exactly what is available in capacity across the province. I can assure him that this approach will result in the most coordinated and effective delivery of services across the province. We have improvements to make. We're moving forward and I'm seeking advice from experts. >> New question. The member for Riverdale. >> Yes, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the programmed Minister of Health. My leader, the members of our caucus from Northern Ontario, and I just came back from another seven days of hearings in the north uh concerning healthc care. Uh as I got into the car on Monday morning in Wawwa for the 3 and a half hour drive to Sue Staint Brie, I picked up a day old uh Sunday star and uh read under the headline vision holds Kaplan in a tough job that in fact the nursing shortage is very much a downtown Toronto issue. Uh Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health is wrong. Speaking to uh over a hundred individuals in Northern Ontario has convinced me that the Minister is wrong and that the minister might do well to listen to some other voices. Health care professionals, hospital boards, nurses themselves have said that there is a shortage of nurses in the north. and I want to know what it is that the minister is going to do about the nursing crisis in the north. >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, as the member would know, vacancy rates in nursing vary widely across the province from relatively no vacancy rate in some communities to some 7% in downtown Toronto. We know in fact that there are special challenges in meeting the needs of Northern Ontario and that is the reason that we establish cooperatively uh a membership on the U northern healthc care manpower planning committee. I can tell him that these issues are being actively addressed. supplementary. The member for Al >> Minister must know I hope she knows that there is a 25% vacancy rate for nurses in horn pain on on top of that where we have a nurse practitioner practicing in Dubraville an isolated community at great distance from the the nearest hospital. Her ministry is continuing to harass that nurse and the operation on the basis that $80,000 a year to operate that nursing station is too much when in fact it is less than a number of other nursing stations in Northern Ontario. Why is the minister continuing to take this position in instead of supporting the nursing station operation in Dubville? continue tell why does the mis minister harass this this nurse in Dubraville >> speaker I would suggest to the member opposite and he knows that I've traveled extensively through the north he knows of our commitment to the provision and access to effective quality care as close to home as possible he knows of the numbers of initiatives that we've taken in the north I can say to him is if he has a concern about a specific issue I'd be pleased to look into Question. The member for Perry Sound. >> Speaker, I have another question of the Minister of Health. I'd like to talk to the minister in the House this afternoon a bit about lithotripsy in the province of Ontario. And we know that the minister uh has responded on past occasions as waiting for task force reports. Well, we have a copy of the interim Scott task force report. I'm surprised you didn't announce it in the legislature this afternoon. I just want to quote one paragraph from this report. The members have reviewed the published evidence on the use of lithotripsy in the treatment of kidney stones and there is general agreement that expanded facilities for lithotripsy in Ontario could produce significant cost savings and provide the opportunity for more efficient relocation of resources by reducing average lengths of hospital stay from about 12 to 3 days per patient and by reducing disability time from about 30 days after open surgery to less than 5 days. >> Right. In the near future, madame minister, it says in the near future, lithotripter should be located in or under the direction of regional teaching hospitals that have educational programs for both urologists and technicians. When can we expect you to make an announcement about additional lithotripsy units in the province of Ontario? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the member would know if he were uh paying attention in the house, I announced a task force on lithotripsy expertise from across the province to advise me on uh the specifics uh of introduction of new technology in lithotripsy and I expect to have their report by March the 31st. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, this issue was first raised by my colleague from Burlington in the legislature about a year ago, >> right? >> Nine or 10 months ago. We've asked you about this in the House last fall, last October. Part part of the Scott task force recommendation. The very line before the portion I read to you says the background material on which the task force recommendations are based has been referred to the minister's committee on lithotripsy. The minister's committee on lithotripsy was supposed to give you an interim report by your own statement by December 31st of 1988. We're now into February of 1989. When are we going to get some action? Surely there is no doubt in the minister's mind now that we need additional lithotripsy units. Will you commit to this? >> Thank youvince of >> You have already asked a question. >> Minister, >> speaker, the member is wrong again. I announced when I convened the committee that they would be reporting by March the 31st. The Scott task force gathered information and have forwarded to the lithotripsy committee. I can tell him that I'm expecting their their report by March the 31st as I asked them to. >> You question the member for Nep. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the treasurer and minister of economic affairs. >> May I say first of all, >> it's a member for Markham is making it very difficult to order. order. >> I >> I think it's only fair that the members are allowed to ask questions >> even the liberals even when they're here >> and the member for Nepian. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> My question to the treasurer relates to an open letter that I wrote in December to my federal colleagues in Eastern Ontario. I urged them to lobby the federal government to resume funding for infrastructure costs as they did up to 1984. I've also asked the library research office to give me the figures on how much money is being lost nationwide because of the federal government's cutback. And according to this report, $200 million was given between 74 and 84 towards the neighborhood improvement program. 128 million towards the municipal incentive grant program, $400 million towards the community services contribution program and $230 million question towards the urban transportation assistance program. Given the magnitude of these dollars, may I ask the treasurer whether he has brought up this matter of federal contributions to its municipal infrastructure costs with Mr. Wilson and with his own provincial colleagues. >> Good treasurer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate notice of the question having been given and I can uh which is the appropriate way uh if you want uh if you want the details of the information that are requested. Actually, I wrote to uh the honorable Robert Dotree, Minister of Regional Industrial Expansion on October 6th, 1988, and wrote him again on January 5th, asking that we at least initiate discussions leading to era of programs that would do precisely what the honorable member has suggested that uh under the previous federal regime, that's the Liberal regime, there was a spectrum of programs designed to assist provinces and municipalities to maintain ain infrastructure. But in the last few years, because of the offloading programs at the federal level, these costs are now going back to the municipalities and to a great extent still reside at the provincial level with really zero federal assistance. >> Feds are doing this again. >> No, the regime or what regime was that? >> Order. Order. >> Order. >> Supplementary. The member for Nepian. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the actions that the treasurer has taken. Uh I'm just wondering whether in view of his very rich political experience that recently we applauded in this house and in fact even moved by the leader of the third party. I would like to ask the treasurer whether he has any advice on the members of this house as to how we might convince the federal government to resume its contributions towards this very important uh matter of municipal infrastructure costs. >> Thanks again. >> I'm not sure how you can convince an intransigent government that should be assisting the provinces far more than they are. I think the honorable member is aware that because of initiatives taken at the federal level that this province uh is uh short a billion dollars this year alone in support of Medicare programs and uh post-secary education. We however have uh taken some substantial local initiative in in um establishing a program administered by the Minister of the Environment. It's called Lifelines and it is designed to assist municipalities in rebuilding uh the infrastructure in the communities across Ontario. It's designed uh to assist over a period of 10 years and we have allocated a billion dollars to it. I wish there were more and I would expect in the future that however this is financed it will uh require a good deal more money. It's my hope along with the honorable member that the federal government will see their way clear to assist the municipalities in Ontario and right across Canada in this essential and worthy program. >> New question, the member for Al. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Health again regarding the assisted devices program. Uh during our uh visit to Elliot Lake, uh a Blind River pharmacist described a case of a veteran named Orville in Blind River who was re had been receiving costly disposable osttomy appliances from DVA and then later Green Shield. When the ADP took over the program, uh it required a an application for authorization of the vendor. It needed two recommendations. The closest registered authorizer was 142 kilometers away in Sue Staint Marie. It took four to 5 months to process this uh application and by the time it was completed the patient had died. >> Good question. >> Uh as Mr. Kenipal put it, Mr. Speaker, the ADP has reached 100% administrative purity. All the money is spent on administration and nothing on service. >> Question. What is the minister doing to end this bureaucratic nightmare in the ADP program to ensure that patients receive the devices they need when they need it? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, um as I acknowledged in this house during estimates, in fact, the assisted devices program has experienced some growing pains. But I'm proud to say that our government has expanded the assisted devices program to cumber to cover a number of assisted devices for residents of all ages. In fact, I would say to him that funding for the 8788 program increased some 40% over the year before and that that program alone supported 135,000 purchasers from over 800 vendors. I recently just announced an expansion of the uh program to cover hearing aids which will benefit some 35,000 uh people in this province at an increased cost uh taking the program from 1 million to $16 million >> the cost of traveling I think >> supplementary the member for Riverdale >> speaker these bureaucratic numbers don't do much for me >> uh in terms of the ex of the growing pains of the ADP Mr. speaker. Uh the growing pains extend all the way from uh from Elliot Lake to Sue St. Marie where in fact a person who lives in Elliot Lake must go to get a registered authorizer to sign the damn bit of paper so that they can get their assisted device. The cost of getting that signature is about $80. Mr. Speaker, the device may be worth $10, $20, $25. All those costs are picked up by the taxpayer and they provide a huge pain for the supplier of the assisted device, many of whom don't want any part of the government's expanding program. What's the minister going to do about it? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge and have said on numerous occasions that in fact the program in its massive expansion has experienced some growing pains and I can tell the member that I'm confident that we can make the kinds of adjustments necessary in our program so that uh people and clients can receive the necessary treatment as quickly as possible. There's more to be done, but we are making progress. >> We question the member for Markham. >> Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation. Our party has raised this issue on a number of other occasions, but my question deals with the Minister's so-called first priority for rapid transit in Metro Toronto, namely the Shepherd subway line. You've refused to live up to your financial uh commitments for the Shepard line. You've abandoned Metro Toronto, and quite frankly, you have dumped the responsibility of transit needs back on Metro. I would like to ask the minister why has he made this major departure in financial arrangements for rapid transit and why has he not lived up to his commitment for the Shepherd subway line? >> Minister, >> uh Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the uh the member's question, but as often as the case, he's badly misinformed once again. >> Here I once again >> that several times. That's often >> I think I think Mr. Speaker, the only intelligent question that came from that side of the side of the legislature was from my colleague from Scar Elmir >> who uh who asked the same question about a month ago. There has been absolutely no change in the financial arrangement with respect to this government funding transit projects. >> Well, you wonder who's wrong, Mr. Speaker. If only we could get the facts, then we'd all be right. But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, people now realize that the $100 million being spent for a onemile extension to the Spadina line has everything to do with Toronto's Olympic bid and nothing to do with Metro's transit needs. Will you admit that you have renegged on your commitment to make the Shepherd subway your first priority in your Metro transit strategy? And will you admit that your overall strategy, if you have one, rests on the IOC decision in September of this year? >> Confess that. >> Minister, >> confess, >> Mr. Speaker. Uh we we >> know who is correct and who is incorrect and the member has demonstrated that again that he is incorrect. In the absence of facts, you can't put in a costefficient way a subway line on Shepard without affecting how the cars get there. The member from Scarra Ellir asked the very same question in an intelligent way some time ago in this house unlike today. >> That's right. >> And he was not misinformed. I would suggest the member the member who had shown no previous interest in transit in and around Metron Ontario certainly not as a member of the former government. He did not uh perhaps ask some questions and be briefed by my staff. Nothing has changed in the financial formula. We have an excellent relationship with members of Metro Council and the transportation committee. Mr. Speaker, the member is misinformed. I think he should take a look at what it is we have said with respect to affecting the Shepherd subway and the Spadina extension and I can assure him that the IOC have had nothing to do with our deliberations. >> Question the member for High Park Swansy. >> Mr. Speaker, my question is for the treasurer. >> Mr. treasurer, there's a growing public consensus about the repercussions of abusing our environment. And within our highly industrialized and materialistic society, there is an increasing recognition that as consumers and often inadvertent polluters, we all share responsibility for the environment. In addition to a strong desire to use less hazardous products, people are prepared to pay more money in order to have a cleaner environment. Mr. Treasurer, in the next budget, will you introduce a significant new tax, an environmental protection tax on all products made or sold in Ontario, which create or become hazardous waste, are not practical to recycle when disposed of, or which involve unnecessary packaging? >> Treasurer. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank the honorable member for notice of this question. Uh it's a very useful one because um I'm sure all members of the legislature share the concern of the government for seeing that our environmental programs are adequately funded and that they are allowed to expand to meet the needs of the community. In this connection, the premier's excellent statement today indicated the leadership in which uh this province has taken on a North American basis and is certainly much to be congratulated. So the uh I think we should be aware that uh in the past three years we have increased the budget for the ministry of the environment by well over 50%. And year over year this year compared to last the increase has been 10%. Uh if the minister were here instead of being busily engaged at cleaning up the environment elsewhere the uh the uh he might be the first to say that even that very generous uh allocation is insufficient. and we would certainly try to do better. >> Such a happy >> supplementary. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Uh the treasurer will know of my interest in uh environmental matters and I have pursued that with him on a number of occasions and we now have substantial evidence including public opinion polls which indicates people are particularly willing to pay more in taxes whether through an environmental protection tax or ordinary taxes if they know the extra money will be spent fighting pollution and helping to clean up the environment. In addition to what we've done in the past, Mr. Treasur, in the next budget, will you commit the government to a significant increase of the financial resources of the Ministry of the Environment? >> I think the honorable member is aware that the uh that the increase in gasoline tax for leaded fuel was granted or was greeted with considerable enthusiasm in most parts of the province as an an as an environmental tax. And as the honorable member knows that the money has gone toward environmental purposes uh in a in uh in every respect. Uh the concept of specially related environmental taxes is an extremely interesting and valuable one. The honorable member as a leading proponent of environmental programs would know that many of the people who share his enthusiasm have written to me personally and indicated that there might very well be uh additional taxes for example on um disposable diapers. I for one do not favor that, but a person who looks at the uh environmental effects there might see that there was some rationale there. But it's certainly a matter that bears uh a very careful consideration so that we can continue to allow the environmental budget to grow at at a substantial rate. >> You question the member for Sue St. Marie. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to bring to the attention of the Minister of Health a release from her own ministry in August 1986 in which the Minister of Health at that time, Murray Yelston, committed to 176 new chronic care beds across Northern Ontario at a cost of $25.3 million. The people of the North are wondering what happened to this promise. I would ask in particular with respect to a commitment to 28 beds to the souset marie general hospital with construction to begin in about two years. We are 6 months past that two years and the ministry spokesman said last week that they are in the preliminary stages of review. What is happening within your ministry where you can make major announcements like that and then sit on them and do absolutely nothing? Where are these beds for Northern Ontario? >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would say to the member opposite that the uh announcements that were made by the former minister in 1986 are going through the normal planning process. >> That itakes takes time. Preliminary stages. We'll just wait until the interjections die down. >> Order. >> Supplementary. The member for Sudbury. >> Supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I have to wonder how long the planning process is going to take. Of the 176 new beds promised in 1986, 60 of those were due to go to the city of Sbury. The district health council agreed that those beds should go to Lurentin Hospital. In November of 1987, I met with the hospital administration because they had not heard a word from your ministry about when the funding would flow for those beds. At the end of November, they were advised that the allocation of beds and the necessary capital funding had been approved. Last week, in spite of all this, hospital representatives and the region came before the task force to say they had no new news on the 60 chronic beds and wanted to know when the funding was going to flow. And I'd like to ask the minister when we can see the establishment of the 60 chronic care beds in Sudbury. >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the member opposite knows, and as we discussed on numerous occasions in this house, we have a sevenstage planning process uh uh within the ministry. She knows as well that concerns have been expressed in some communities that often the parameters within with the planning uh was begun changed uh during that planning process and cause sometimes lengthy and frustrating delays. It's one of the reasons that I encourage communities to plan within the parameters originally set and established and approved by the ministry so that the planning process can be expedited. We are of course as you know reviewing the process itself to make sure that we plan for the future to meet the needs of the people of Ontario. >> New question. The member for Cochran South. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Labor. Uh the the minister will be aware that the hearing officer's appeals for the widows of uh minors who have died of lung cancer have started in January of this year in Timmans and in other northern Ontario communities. You'll be aware of the fact that those appeals have started. And as a representative of of these families, I have therefore been involved in the hearing processes and have had access to the information on the files of the claimants. And I would ask the minister why in virtually every case there is absolutely no information on the file with respect to exposure calculations in order the miners can qualify or not qualify in terms of exposure units. Why there's no information on dust levels in the various mines that these miners worked on. Why there's no information on ventilation systems and the dates that these ventilation systems were improved. Why there's no detailed medical information including necessary autopsy reports and pathology reports. Why there's no explanation of the X-ray order. >> That's four questions. Minister, >> speaker, you're right. Of course, there are a number of questions there and they're uh they're interesting questions. Obviously, this isn't the appropriate place to raise them because uh the Now, hold on a second. I say to the leader of the opposition because the the member from Cochran South is talking about an adjudicative process that's happening within the worker compensation system. If he would like me to raise those questions with the board and bring back an answer, uh I would be perfectly willing to do that. But to suggest, as I think he's doing behind his question, that somehow the Ministry of Labor or the Minister of Labor should influence that adjudication process is inappropriate. And I think my friend from Cochran South knowing the system as he does does acknowledge that. >> Supplementary. >> I don't think it's inappropriate for the minister who has responsibility to the people of this province for the operation of this system intervene, which he's been asked to do before, to provide for some better system of adjudication. Even your hearing officers are saying that they do not have adequate information on the file to make these decisions. I have written on two occasions to the board with copies to yourself asking for generic hearings so that we can expeditiously deal with the claims of some of these widows who have had appeals pending for nine and 10 years. There has been no response from the board or from your ministry in order to expedite these hearings or provide basic information that widows and their families are entitled to. Now, are you going to intervene and provide for full disclosure of all information for these families so they can get a fair hearing in front of the system or not? >> Minister. >> Uh, Mr. Speaker, let's just step back uh a couple of uh steps and go back to the uh to the origin of this issue. It was about uh it was about 18 months ago uh that the board finally arrived at a policy uh which would lead to appropriate compensation for some widows who had I acknowledge to the member from Cochran South been waiting for a very long time and those who advocated on their behalf did an extremely good job of finally making the case and in the end Mr. speaker, when all the stuff is done, there will be some $30 million paid out in compensation where uh in appropriate cases. Now, if there is problems with the adjudicative system, I want to make sure that the board is dealing with those problems. So, I will take the questions that the member from Cochran South raised as notice, I will bring them to the attention of the board. But I want to assure my friend from Cochran South and every member in this house that I and no previous minister of labor, liberal or conservative, would interfere with that adjudication process. >> Your question, the member for Wentworth East. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Minister, as you know, the Hamilton Airport, located in my writing at Mount Hope, is increasingly becoming a viable alternative to Pearson International Airport for many Ontario travelers. For some time now, the airport has been trying to offer the amenities of an international airport. However, there are no duty-free liquor sales available at this time. >> Would the minister inform the House of the actions his ministry has taken in regard to securing duty-free liquor sales at Hamilton Airport? >> Ontario wine. >> Minister Uh, Mr. Speaker, I thank the honorable member for the question and uh, the member has brought to my attention privately in the past the uh, her concerns and her desires to have the uh, to have the Mount Hope facility upgraded. Uh, the problem is, Mr. Speaker, as uh, as the honorable member may know that uh, the the non-licker duty-free tendering process that took place in effect in effect there was no tendering process. And what we have done uh, Mr. Speaker, is to offer to the uh, uh, to Mr. Stout who owns the uh t the uh non-l liquor duty-free outlet. We have offered uh him uh the ability to uh tender for both liquor and non liquor duty-free outlet uh should he relinquish the uh the uh the office that he now has. He has uh he has refused to do so. And so uh to move this matter forward in a way which I know my my friend wants uh so that the uh the airport can attract more international flights, the chairman of the LCBO in early January, I believe, wrote to the airport manager, Mr. Ainsworth, and has offered uh to open up a uh a uh duty-free uh outlet run by the LCBO. Uh and that's where the matter stands. That offer is now under consideration. >> Supplementary. Minister, could you inform the House as to when the travelers using Hamilton's Mount Hope Airport might expect duty-free liquor sales at this facility? >> Minister, >> well, we have made some progress, Mr. Speaker. As I understand it, that airport is undergoing an expansion which will free up some space which was actually needed before we could even consider this matter. Uh there have been uh letters, as I said, going back and forth. Mr. Ainssworth has replied and has referred in his reply only to a uh a duty-free uh liquor tendering process uh which is not what uh what what the chairman chairman Akroyd had said in suggested in his letter to uh to the airport manager earlier. Uh we are currently undertaking some discussions. I want to move this matter forward. Uh but I must suggest to the honorable member what what we want as assurances of is that the tendering process which we've established in this government an open and above board tendering process in which all people will be asked to tender uh will be followed in this case but that at the end of the day the uh the Mount Hope facility will have the same duty-free uh facilities uh as we enjoy in several other airports in Ontario. >> New question the member for Lake Nipagon. >> My question is to the minister of health. The minister says she is quite proud of the um medical necessary travel grant for Northern Ontarians. And I see the minister nodding her head in acquiescence. While she has a right to be proud because she will remember very vividly that it was indeed New Democrats that are responsible for the work and therefore the grant. However, Mr. Speaker, the the limitations that the minister places on the grant makes it virtually impossible for people uh living for instance in the townships of Shriber, the townships of Terrace Bay who must travel 200 kilometers to Tund Bay for medical services are not being compensated in the lease. They don't receive one penny of assistance from the provincial government for medical services. And the same thing applies for instance madame minister to the 5,000 resident residing in Wawwa that must go to Sue St. Marie. >> You have a question. >> They're not getting any money. My question to the minister is this. Will you give serious consideration, Madame Minister? By virtue and reason of the fact that the economy in Ontario is doing very well, the revenues are up, taxes are up, but so are revenues of course to lessening the amount of miles to fit the criteria so that the good people of the north, the people that needed the most could finally have access to health services that >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Minister. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Speaker. As the uh as the member knows, the purpose of the Northern Travel Grant Program is to ensure access to for Northern residents to services of specialists which are not available in Northern Ontario. uh that grant I'm very pleased to say was uh introduced in December of 1985 by this government and in fact there have been over a 100,000 people who have had travel grants uh made available to them in uh total accessing some over a million $700,000 better access. In fact, since the beginning of that program, the travel limit has been reduced from 300 km to 250 km. We are always reviewing that and in fact the the kilometer guideline is uh uh established taking into account the distances that people in southern Ontario travel as well. >> Mr. Speaker, supplementary. >> Supplementary. >> Thank you. Thank you. How you doing? Right. Everybody knows what >> not at a point of order. >> No, no, Mr. Speaker, although probably I could think of one if I have to. >> Everybody knows what the purpose of the medically necessary travel grant is. What we're concerned about is the limitations this government has placed on the travel grant. In addition to the mileage limitation, there are three other serious limitations that were raised by people in the north. One is that the travel grant of course does not begin to cover the cost of the travel. >> Two is that unless you're under 18, you don't get any money to take a companion with you. So you can be blind or deaf or never have left your hometown, but you don't get a companion, at least not one that is compensated for the travel. The third thing is that when you get to wherever you're going, say you've gone from Elliot Lake to Toronto, you have to get a hotel here and you carry the freight for that yourself. What's the minister going to do about those limitations? >> Minister, >> in fact, Mr. Speaker, I think it's important to note that as the program which we believe is is uh working well has changed and we have added I would say to the member travel uh assistance for addictions program, travel assistance for some uh dental procedures and for some uh optometric procedures. As we review the program on an ongoing basis, we also have to take into consideration the fact that we are also trying to make doctors in the north aware of what services are available in the the north because in fact one of our goals is to encourage specialists to trap practice in the north so that people will have services available as close to home as possible and we know sometimes people are being uh referred out of Northern Ontario when those services are available. So, we're doing what we can to let doctors know what specialty services are available in the north and those have been increasing and uh continuing to increase as we have constantly reviewed the travel grant program which I would say Mr. Speaker is working quite well. >> This sounds as if >> sounds as if the orchestra is a little out of tune. >> New new [applause] question. The member for London North. >> Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. Mr. Minister, we in our U search around one of the tragedies this weekend have been given some information and we were wondering if you can confirm it or or enlighten us. Uh, two facts have come to light. uh one is that um the agency involved has been given the authorization and the funding to have two full-time individuals working at the home at night and that's the home where Christa Sep was killed. And the other fact that uh has come to our um attention and one that we're concerned about is that under the Young Offenders Act, staff at halfway homes do not have the right to search young offenders when they return from workplace assignments or other outside trips. And I'm wondering, Mr. Minister, if you could confirm or enlighten the House as to both of those pieces of information that we've received that we're somewhat confused about. >> Minister. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, um Kark being a uh service for children with serious emotional disturbances uh has always had the authority to increase staff if in their judgment they believed it was necessary. Um that that's a decision they must make. You will recall that about a week before this incident, in fact, they did double staff in that house because they felt that there was a a a possible concern. Uh that was recognized and the funding is there to provide for that. I've al also indicated to the honorable uh member, excuse me, to uh another member uh that we have advised now all of our agencies to review and if they have a particular uh need then to deal with it as they feel is most appropriate. So that that opening has been there that and it was a it was a decision an internal decision. Um with respect to the uh the second question that she asked, I I'm sorry I I don't have that information. and I can't either confirm it or deny it. >> That completes the aotted time for oral questions and responses.