Question Period Rewind - December 13 1989

Welcome to Question Period Rewind. I'm Donna Skellyy, speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. 1989, what a year. The legendary Daryl Sitler was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. In Ontario, the OHL season was fierce with the Peter Burough Pets winning the J Ross Robertson Cup. But perhaps the biggest sports milestone for us was the opening of the Toronto Blue Jays Skydome. Now, let's see what some of the big milestones in provincial politics were at that time. [music] >> Oral questions. the leader of the opposition. >> Mr. Speaker, I I was uh hoping to ask this question of the premier, but uh and was told that he would be here. Uh but since I understand he isn't here, I will uh go with the uh next best thing, the Minister of Health. >> We vote on that. >> I'm asking you a question, >> Mr. Speaker. I I uh I know that the the minister has already issued a press release and answered uh a question in the house uh with respect to the inquest into the death of Stella Lcroy. But I have some questions for the minister about uh her answers to the uh statements that are found in the inquest. Mr. Speaker, the uh the inquest states categorically that Dr. Nisdulli is to be commended uh for uh and the nursing supervisor for their dedicated and sincere efforts on behalf of their patient Stella Lacroy and that recognition should also be given to Mr. Shy of the integrated trauma program for offering his assistance when he was by no means required to do so. Now, Mr. Mr. Speaker, I want to give the minister one more chance to explain to this house why she and the premier are not willing to at least apologize for having left the clear impression with the entire public that a system was in place which these dedicated professionals failed to use. >> That was the impression left by the by the premier and by the minister. I want to ask her, will she at least do the decent thing now and apologize in the face of the findings of the jury in the court's inquest. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would say to the leader of the opposition that I have at all times spoken of the dedication of all of the health providers of this province. I commend all of the caregivers who attempted to assist Mrs. Laqua and I commend the jury as well who sought out all of the facts in this case. What I would say to the leader of the opposition which unfortunately often becomes >> we remember how he defended the doctor. Just because he says something doesn't mean that factual just because he leaves an impression doesn't mean that that is correct. I would say to him that I never blamed anyone. I never at any time suggested that there was a provincewide hotline in service across this province. I was referring at all time to the system at the Toronto General Hospital and to a letter which they gave to me which at the inquest they say they stand by. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, uh I I cannot believe that the Minister of Health fails to understand the implications of what she said and did in those short days after the death of Stella Lcroy. Every member I think in their in their heart knows exactly what took place in this house. The premier and the minister left Dr. Nisdulli out to dry. That's precisely the effect of what they said in the house and what they said outside. And thank goodness the coroner's jury has come to his in his defense. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the minister one particular question relating to uh to the inquest. uh page three of the inquest that there's a a very specific recommendation that is made by the jury and that is that nurses be compensated for specialized training and secondly that the Minister of Health together with the nursing association and hospital administrations address the shortage of nursing staff in the metropolitan Toronto area. The situation has reached a critical stage and seems to be a hindrance to the availability of continued quality healthcare in southern Ontario. Mr. Speaker, uh the uh question >> health manpower study of the ministry shows how serious how serious the shortage of nurses is in the latest ministry survey. I wonder if the minister can tell us is she prepared to provide the hospital administrations with the funds necessary to compensate nurses for specialized training. >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make clear to the leader of the opposition that there are more nurses working in Ontario's health care system than ever before. >> Nurfing nursing staff concerns often relate to the difficulties in specialized units or in certain geographic areas and that is because we have in fact enhanced the system significant. There are a lot of politicians changing over the course of the last number of years. hospital-based budgets and hospital funding generally has increased very very significantly. The treasurer just announced for this year an 8.7% increase for hospital budgets across this province. I'm sure that the leader of the opposition will say that is inadequate. We know that he criticizes as is his job everything that we do. But I want him to know that all issues relating to pay, >> salary and income are issues of the collective bargaining process between the nurses and their union, the Ontario Nurses uh association and the employers, the hospitals through the Ontario Hospital Association. He knows that. Mr. Speaker, >> final supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, I can't believe the minister is rejecting the most basic finding of the of the jury's of the jury's statement. The jury said that uh that there is a particular problem in metropolitan Toronto and the jury suggested that the way to deal with that problem is uh for nurses who are involved in the most critical areas where there are the most critical shortages to be paid enough to keep them at at in those jobs. >> Exactly. >> That's that's basically what's being suggested. Now, your own survey, Mr. Speaker, shows that there are 1,900 nurses. We're 1,900 nurses short across Ontario. That we have a vacancy rate in Metropolitan Toronto of 9%. And that in some hospitals, it's way above that, and that in critical care, it's way above that. If the minister doesn't appreciate that there is a nursing crisis in some hospitals and in some areas, then she is completely missing the point of everything that's happened in Ontario and healthcare in the last two years. I want to ask the minister, is she prepared to fund the hospitals to the degree necessary to end this kind of a shortage? >> Mr. Speaker, >> since 1985, there has been a growth in both the absolute numbers of registered nurses in Ontario and the number of nurses entering the workforce. There's been an increase of some 6,300 RNs registered in the province since 1985. I would say to him that our recent nursing initiatives which I announced a five-year $15 million program to improve no both nursing recruitment and nursing retention involve very six very specific areas. Uh one is a five-year $5 million nursing uh in innovation fund as well as annual nursing birth. >> Remember what the NDP did to the nurses in Saskatchewan? issues are very very complicated. But I would say to him that I will be referring the recommendation of the jury and be sure that it is brought to the attention of the Ontario Nurses Association who bargain in the collective bargaining process with the Ontario Hospital Association. I wanted to know that last year as well Ontario hospitals received $6 billion dollar 223 hospitals in this province some $6 billion dollar but that the nursing wages are established as part of the collective bargaining process. Surely he's not suggesting that we intervene in that process. >> New question the member for Riverdale. >> Not to the same minister seeing as how we're doing so badly. Uh we we get from uh the Minister of Health a uh a version of the have a nice day wish chant that people are familiar with and that's the quality care as close to home as possible wish chant. Uh I was speaking this morning to a man who uh is in great anxiety in Brford, Ontario because his father is in Ottawa, Ontario. Same province at least, but about 300 miles away. And his father is there because the cancer referral center referred him there. The problem is, among many problems, is that he was referred there on November the 22nd and the Ottawa facility has said, "Maybe we can start your radiation treatment in January." >> The question, >> the quality care is close to home doesn't work. Minister, what about the the care that they need when they need it? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, the uh critic in the opposition knows full well that my priority is to see that people get care when they need it. That's the reason that we are working with our partners to see how we can improve the system to see that people are referred to a location as close to home as possible. He knows as well that I'm always prepared to review individual cases to see if appropriate action has been taken. We rely on doctors to use their very best judgment. But my priority, my priority always is to see that people have access to the services that they need, effective quality services when they need them. >> Supplementary. >> The other option, Mr. Speaker, was Thunder Bay, >> which I think the last time anybody I know drove there was 17 hours from Brford, Ontario. as opposed to five hours from uh Brford to Ottawa. >> My uh caller and correspondent says this, it is extremely difficult to accept the diagnosis of cancer to begin with. And at a time when having the support and love of family and friends is so important, the only hope of survival and apparent apparently immediate treatment lies 300 miles away. Has the minister anything better to share with this house than her understanding of that kind of anxiety? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, you know, I think that uh there isn't a person in this house or across the province that hasn't experienced the tragedy or the stress or having to deal with serious illness. Uh we know that uh the support of of family and communities is very very important. Uh these are very stressful and difficult moments and at those times we expect an awful lot from our health care system and we want it to be perfect and Mr. Speaker, it's not perfect and we're always trying to improve it and to work together to improve it. But I want to say to the member that what we want to know first and foremost is that the very best possible care has been made available. And I want him to know that we're working at to the establishment of kind of standards and quality assurance programs so that people can be assured that wherever they access care across this province, they will be receiving appropriate and optimal care. >> Final supplementary. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, there are some a number of understatements in the minister's response. It clearly is not perfect. Uh the cancer was uh spotted in June of ' 89. My constituent, and I say that in a generic sense, was sent to Ottawa in November the 20th. >> The uh I wish the attorney general would try and calm himself. I know it must be really irritating to be an attorney general for that kind of government >> supplementary. >> Somehow somehow, Mr. Speaker, five months elapsed before the referral center could even find a place to send the person suffering from cancer. And once he got there, he was then told he was going to have to wait two more months. M Mr. Speaker, there's a huge irony in this and and the minister will probably know if she has read her history that Dr. James Hillyard comes from Bransford, Ontario, that the member from St. Andrew St. Patrick knows that because he comes from Bransford, Ontario, it's not just the home of the telephone. It's the home of radiation treatment and a manner. >> Do you have a question? and wait too much for nothing. >> I don't know if there was a question there or not. Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Mr. Speaker, uh I think it's important for all members of this house to realize that if something seriously has gone wrong that there are highly effective procedures, processes and organizations like the college of physicians and surgeons who will thoroughly investigate any particular case. I do not question physician judgment. that I have to say to the member opposite that if the College of Physicians and Surgeons receive a complaint about the care that any individual has received from any doctor in this province, they will investigate and best advise the patient as to what to do. I would say to him that in fact >> we are always trying to improve. I understand the frustration and I would say to him that if he has any advice, he knows that I'm always open to his suggestions on how we can make the system a little bit better tomorrow than it was yesterday. >> New question, the member for Sarnia. >> Mr. Speaker, my question as well is for the Minister of Health and I I have to say to the Minister that uh and I say this with respect that it's uh almost painful the way we have to extract answers to questions to clarify policies in the part of the Ministry of Health and I want to attempt once again today because of some confusing signals, Madame Minister, that you sent out yesterday in response to questions and answers that you gave both inside and outside of this house. Now, inside the house, in response to my question, you indicated that in order to be assured of health coverage after January the 1st, those individuals who had received bills during the latter part of 1989 for their OHIP premiums would in fact have to pay those premiums in order to have health coverage for January, February, and March of the new year. outside of the house. You indicated even if those premiums were not paid that those individuals would have access to the system and would not in fact be charged for any health related expenses should they uh turn ill sometime in the first three months of the new year. Could the minister once and for all clarify the position of your ministry and the government in connection with this whole premium policy? Minister. >> Thank you very much, >> Mr. Speaker. I would say to the leader of the third party that if there's any confusion in this province, he bears responsibility for it. I will state very, very clearly, as I have before, that all residents will continue to have access to health care services in this province during this time of transition. It is extremely important that we not confuse this issue. I would say to him that my concern is that people have access to those services. And if he wants to play games with double speak and innuendo, then he should bear the responsibility of the confusion that he has created >> supplementary. >> The word um Mr. Speaker, the word access crept into the minister's vocabulary. still another day in spite of my attempt to assist the minister yesterday in how confusing that particular word was relative to the question that I'm asking is the minister saying and I will give her a specific case is the minister saying that if someone does not pay their OHIP premium for January February March which they must pay sometime before the end of 1989 9. And if that individual slips on the ice and breaks their leg and is hospitalized but has not paid for their premiums for the first three months of 1990, is the minister saying those health related costs are going to be covered? >> Simple question, madam minister. >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would say again to the leader of the third party that I would encourage him >> not to in fact during this time of transition from premiums to a tax funding system for the health services of this province to confuse the issue in the minds of people. I want the people of this province not to worry as we change the system and as of January the 1st, all residents of Ontario will be covered and all residents will have access to the services that they need and they need not worry. Mr. Speaker, >> final supplementary >> already established, Madame Minister, that in addition to a transition period in which you are changing the method by which you're going to be collecting money from the Ontario public that you will be at the very least collecting an additional $300 million from the system. You will be replacing 1.8 8 billion in OHIP premiums with 2.1 billion in the new employer uh health levy which your government has determined is the better way to go. If in fact it's the better way to go, let's just assure the Canad the Ontario public that they are going to be hit with an additional $300 million. Why don't you do the right thing to clarify and and perhaps to simplify how this whole matter could be uh clarified in the minds of the Ontario public by bringing in that that change of premium and in fact the coverage on April the 1st of 1990 and tell the Ontario public that with or without premiums they're going to be covered for January, February, and March. Now, in so doing, I recognize your government will lose the bonusing that the treasurer has built into this new scheme, but you effectively will balance the books. Why don't you do that and come clean and tell the Ontario public that you're not going to collect that extra money and cover? >> That's a very good speech, Minister. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I know that the leader of the third party could understand this if he put his mind to it. the employer health tax will be used to raise revenues to provide the services that the people of this province need and require through the Ministry of Health. He knows as well that uh this change from a premium to a tax represents a $1 billion tax cut for the people of this province. He knows that it's been explained to him by the treasurer. He does I I would suggest, Mr. speaker that maybe he doesn't want to understand, but I think he could if he put his mind to this. He knows he knows how important it is to ensure that health services are appropriately funded. My commitment is to see that people have access to the health services that they need. I want to reassure them that as we change from one system to another, no one will be denied access to the services that they need. and I ask him during this time of transition to try and lessen the confusion by giving the people the facts. >> New question, the member for Cochran South. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Revenue. In the absence of the ability of the Minister of Health to answer simple questions put with respect to Bill 47, the employer health tax. I mean, the doctors can't extra bill, but the Liberal government can. I guess that's what the message is that the Minister of Health has given. Mr. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Revenue. Can he do something that they refused to do for an hour and a half yesterday in the legislature, and that is confirm what Mr. Raycraft, the parliamentary assistant to the treasurer, said to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs last Thursday, December the 7th, when he indicated that $500 million would be collected for January, February, and March of 1990 under the employer health tax levy system, while you would be collecting $435 million in OHIP premiums for January, February, and March of 1990. Will you confirm Will you confirm this double collection that what Mr. Raycraft said was true. >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, let me quote from U Hansert of October 19th, >> 1989. Let me quote the treasurer. Mr. Speaker, let me quote what the treasurer said to a similar charge that was made by U by the opposition at that time. and I quote, "Because we count the dollars and they are not doubled, I can assure the honorable member that the cash flow coming originally from insurance premiums that end at the end of December and the tax that begins on the 1st of January will be identical except for the 3% increase that is associated with moving the support from 13% which which is where we are now to approxim imately 16% where we will be next year and that is more or less the identical answer that I gave to the honorable member yesterday in committee. Mr. Chair uh Mr. >> supplementary mr speaker last Thursday the standing committee on finance and economic affairs examined bill 47. We demanded answers as an opposition from the spokesman from the government with respect to the collection of OHIP premiums up until the end of December for the period January, February, and March of 1990. At the same time that you're taking the employee health tax, payroll tax for the same period of January, February, and March. Mr. Orsini, an official of your government, indicated that for January, February, and March, you were collecting $435 million in OHIP premiums. >> That's right. Two minutes before then, Mr. Raycraft, who had called on Mr. Orsini, indicated that the that the payroll tax would give to the coffers of the province of Ontario $500 million for that same period. Now, will you confirm that you're double taxing the people of the province of Ontario? Confirm what the Parliamentary Assistant of the Treasur officials told the members of that committee last >> minister. Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Speaker, that question has been answer uh has been asked a number of times. It's been answered a number of times. It is very clear, Mr. Speaker, that uh one system ends on December the 31st. Another system begins on January 1st. There are not double dollars that go to the Treasury, as the treasurer stated to the legislature on the 19th of October. But, Mr. Speaker, the facts are the facts are that well over 270,000 individuals and well over 300,000 families will not have to make OHIP uh premium payments in the future. they will have their OHIP uh uh covered under the new employer health tax which will which requires all employers to make a fair contribution with a special half rate for small business >> final supplementary mr Mr. Speaker, the minister, like the Minister of Health, over many days of discussion has refused to confirm information given to members of a committee of this legislature by their own representatives. >> Shame. >> He refused to confirm this double taxation. The minister has inadvertently made a an incorrect statement to this house just now. He said that the OHIP premium system ends on December 31st, 1989. In fact, Mr. Orini who was called upon by Mr. Raycraft to to give information to members of the committee last Thursday said there are no premiums collected in January February March period but the payments made for January February and March OHIP premiums would amount to over $400 million approximately $435 million. How can the minister stand here and deny that people are not paying OHIP premiums for January, February, and March of 1990 when his own officials told a House committee last th Thursday that this was the fact? How can you deny the truth of double taxation when it's there for everyone to see? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, uh that's exactly right and that's what some of the members opposite wanted us to do last night. They wanted us to increase our expenditures in healthcare. They wanted us to take in less revenue. They know uh the they know the facts. Mr. Speaker, they have tried to distort the facts. They would Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, if OHIP premiums, Mr. Speaker, if OHIP premiums had not been frozen in 198485 by this government and if they had been indexed to the con to to the consumer price index, OHIP premiums, OHIP premiums today would bring in to the government $2.6 billion, not the $2.1 billion that is going to be brought in by the employer health tax. >> New question, the member for Hamilton East. You want the government 84 Raymond here in 84. Are you ready to allow the member to ask a question? Thank you. The member >> new question. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister for Skills Development, I'd like to go to the premier. The government of Ontario has established provincial statutes dealing with apprentices and journeymen in the construction industry through the Ontario Tradesman's Qualifications Act. These statues have unfortunately been given to the Minister of Skills Development to implement, govern, and enforce. And that simply hasn't been happening, as the hundreds of uh trades people that were outside this building this morning can attest to. In light of recent evidence that problems are developing with respect to both apprenticeship training and health and safety programs, can the premier tell the House if it's true that we only have five enforcement officers working for the ministry trying to deal with and regulate over 30 regulated trades covering thousands of workers in the province of Ontario. >> Premier, >> speaker, I I'm sorry I can't answer that question specifically about how many enforcement officers um there are. Certainly, I'll inquire with the minister and he could report to you specifically on that question. >> Supplementary time. While inquiring of the minister, if the number of enforcement officers is there because the ministry feels that they're competent to deal with the act, can we also find out why with some dozen applications made for prosecution under the act, none have proceeded with and there appears to have been no prosecution since 1966. And how can the government so flagrantly ignore the very real issues that are facing skilled trades people in the province of Ontario uh in this province? And what is this government prepared to do about it? >> Premier, >> I'm sorry I can't answer the specific question the honorable member raises. I I do know that there was a a demonstration here today about I gather the the rat shows with number of apprentices to uh u to uh trades people uh today. As you know that entire matter is under review by a number of [snorts] committees sectoral committees looking at the various trades and it is our view as well on one hand as my honorable friend knows there is a shortage of skilled labor and uh that will pro that will continue in the future unless it's addressed and we believe that uh the labor movement has to be part of the solution. uh as you know as well a number of programs are being developed through the premier's council in conjunction with labor that we hope will we say share the ownership and the solutions to some of these problems and they are all complicated and interrelated but I can tell my honorable friend the broad question and I sorry I can't answer a specific question is under review at the present time >> new question the member for Terry Sound >> Mr. Speaker I have a question of the premier as well uh Mr. Mr. Premier, I'm sure that you will now be aware of the uh the coroner's inquest and the coroner's jury's recommendations with respect to the death of Stella Laqua. The first recommendation being that the medical staff of Heronia District Hospital with particular emphasis on Dr. Derek Nesley, Sh nurse Sharon Nun, and nursing supervisor Dennis Lahi be commended for their dedicated and sincere efforts on behalf of their patient tala. Both yourself, sir, and uh the minister of health on October the 12th of this year made remarks in the legislature that there was a system in place that all Dr. Ndolei had to do was avail himself that system and his problems would have been solved. And for the life of you, you didn't know why he didn't use that system. I think that's a disparaging remark with respect to Dr. Nisdulli, especially in light of the coroner jury's recommendation. >> Question. >> Your Minister of Health refused to apologize to Dr. Ndolei yesterday. Would you do that today for us, sir? Premier think that the minister can answer your question and I have very confidence in this. >> Order. >> It's been referred to the Minister of Health. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the member office that the last June when we announced that we were establishing regional trauma and critical care hotlines across the province, that member said they weren't necessary and that all doctors knew exactly who to call. He knows as well that simply because he says something doesn't mean that he's either informed, correct, or has the facts. He knows full well that all information was shared with this house in good faith. That no one on this side of the house blamed anybody for anything. We said we wanted all the facts to come out. I commend the coroner's jury and everyone who was involved in helping to get all of the facts out. And I would say to him that he does no one a service by trying further to uh inflame that which was never inflamed in the first place. supplementary. >> What an answer. >> Mr. Speaker, >> I don't know what that was, but it certainly wasn't an answer to the question that was asked. >> The question that was asked was a question of the premier of the province of Ontario about a disparaging remark he made publicly and in this chamber about a doctor in the medical profession that a coroner's jury is subsequently found to deserve a commendation, not criticism, by the Minister of Health or the Premier of the Province. I asked for an apology. Numerous members have asked for it several times. I have no supplementary. They've got no class over there. >> New question. [applause] >> New question. The member for >> You deserve an apology. >> Order. >> Order. New question. The member for Simco Center. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labor. Uh, as the Minister is aware, there have been considerable concerns expressed in our area about the possible hazardous working conditions at a former Robson Lang. >> Order with respect. >> Order. Order. The member for Simco Center. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, as as the minister is aware, uh, there have been concerns uh, regarding resulting possible health problems and even deaths uh, as a result of alleged um, and possible uh, working conditions at the former Robson Lang Tannery in Berry. And I'm pleased that the minister has uh had an inquir and investigation instigated. But there are u media reports which are quoting certain sources as saying that there are substantial deaths and health problems. There are other reports saying that there are not uh any uh concrete or specific results coming out of the study. And I'm wondering if today the minister could give us some guidance or uh tell us what is the status of the investigation, what is the information which is evolving this investigation. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I very much appreciate the ongoing interest by the member of Simco Center from the outset of of the matter. The single most important thing perhaps is that that all the individuals involved feel comfortable and confident in the process that's going on. And what we've done, Mr. Speaker, is to establish a study. The Ministry of Labor will coordinate it, but it will involve also the injured workers, the the union that's been involved in the in that particular tannery and the tannery association to conduct a thorough analysis of the situation. And as I say, I think that's the most important thing that all the the parties that are involved feel a part of that study, be involved in that study, be a part of the design of that study. Frankly, what we're looking for now, Mr. Speaker, are names and addresses of individuals who worked in that institution over a per longest period of time we can possibly find so we can conduct the most thorough possible study. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the minister appreciates that uh because of all of the publicity and concern, there are many people who are going through a great deal of anxiety uh with regards to what has happened to them, what has happened to their members of their family. I'm wondering has the minister any idea as to the time that might be involved as to when some results or information might be available to either tell them that there is reason for concern or that there might not be reason for concern. When might they get some information that could uh satisfy them as to what the risks have been? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. This study will not be one that can be done real quickly. What uh what we've also done, Mr. Speaker, is we've asked the the tannery association for names of individuals involved in other tanneries. We've asked the former head office of this organization for names and I think we've gotten 800 names from them because in order to do the kind of comprehensive study that we're going to have to do, we're going to have to we're going to require a fairly large number of individuals and and a fairly sophisticated study so that in terms of of being able to comfort people that this can be done quickly. I don't think we can do that, Mr. Speaker. I think it is going to require a number of months. In the meantime, I believe there's been, I think, 80 individuals who have submitted claims to workers compensation and I would encourage that process to go on as well. I guess the reassurance that I can give the member is that the study has the involvement of the effective parties will be the results will be known and and then and will be a matter of public record and I hope that we have enough involvement in the development of the study that individuals feel confident that they have a say in that study. >> New question, the member for Lake Nipagon. My question is to the minister responsible for u for native affair the human rights code Mr. Minister of Ontario says the following and it's very very simple and please with respect listen very intently it says every person has the right to equal treatment with respect to services goods and facilities without discrimination because of race ancestry place of origin color ethnic origin citizenship creed sex etc. How does the minister explain in this year of our Lord 1989 on the eve of Christmas that Aboriginal people in Northern Ontario have little or no running water, sewage treatment, garbage disposal, adequate housing, ambulance service, care for elders, midwife service, education and preventive programs, programs to deal with substance abuse, spousal abuse, etc. How do you explain that position that discrepancy between what the code says and what is the reality the sad reality of today >> minister [applause] >> I take the honorable member's point and I think it's a sound one but he will recognize that >> that resources are not provided unhappily equitably all across the country or across the province for that matter people who live in rural communities do not get access to some services that are available to people who live in urban communities and our native people have been the victims of that kind of difficulty in remote communities and in urban communities for many generations. It's a serious difficult human problem that we're trying to address and as I did try to address the other day when the leader of the opposition was jeering at me but I understand the nature of the problem and we are trying to respond effectively. >> Supplementary the member for Al. >> Thank you Mr. Speaker. I won't jer at the minister. I'd like to draw his attention to uh a report recently published by the uh Thunder Bay District Health Unit uh on prenatal mortality in northwestern Ontario, which they relate to the kinds of conditions my colleague uh from Lake Nipigan uh delineated. On the first page, it says, "Using a 9-year average for the District of Thunder Bay and Ontario." Thunder Bay average 16% higher perinatal mortality rate than Ontario. The other two districts of Northwest Ontario, Canor and Rainy River, inflated northwest Ontario, the Northwestern Ontario rate by an additional 11%. The per natal mortality rate rate for natives is estimated to increase the district rate by 12%. The study goes on to relate this to the high incidence of teenage pregnancies, lack of access to medical care and preventive health programs, alcohol and substance abuse, and the smoking of tobacco. What is this government doing to respond to this terrible situation where infants are dying at a much higher rate because of the poor living conditions and social conditions that the Aboriginal people of northwestern Ontario experience. Minister, >> uh, as the honorable member knows, the Minister of Health has been active to provide a series of resources and a series of programs to assist native people in Northern Ontario and in other parts of the province who are uh for whom we are obliged to provide services. One of the difficulties, as the honorable member knows, is almost all medical services for on reserve native people are provided by the federal government. Uh I will be glad to take up any individual case that the honorable member has where uh the responsibility is provincial. As I said to the honorable member the other day, I know he didn't accept it and I understand why. Uh native people are concerned about assuring themselves that the federal government which has a constitutional obligation toward them does not recede from those obligations. >> New question. The member for Burlington South. >> Thank you uh Mr. Speaker and water. >> If you can respond to a crisis in the third world no just relax. We'll wait. >> You would treat your dog that way. New duck gets better. Let's face it. >> New question. The member for Burlington South. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Housing, and it has to do with your uh rent registry, which is part of your government's new rent regulations act. As the minister will know that the registry is responsible for recording the maximum legal rents that are allowed to be charged in this province. Your ministry has been promising all Ontarians since May of 1987. And I quote from your annual report that tenants will be able to call their local rent review office to find out any available information recorded on their computer systems. Minister, millions of dollars have been spent on computers, millions of dollars on software programmers, and on new staff. Could the minister please advise this house today after 3 years of operating the rent registry just how many rental units are accur accurately recorded and available on computer to Ontario residents when they phone your offices? Minister >> Speaker, I uh sorry I don't know that number, but I'll get it for the honorable member. But I want to tell him that uh when I became minister, I instructed my staff to redirect all staff resources and including away from the rent registry and that was a decision that I made towards uh reducing the uh the waiting list for rent review hearings. uh I take full responsibility for that and uh it was simply a choice that I had to make and uh we've now got the number down from roughly 27,000 I think to about 9,000 and I want to get it down even further and as soon as I've made that kind of an impact I will reassign the staff back to the registry >> supplementary >> minister you need and apologize for that decision that that is the very reason why you were appointed to that ministry that so desperately needed the leadership and management skills because of the mess that rent registry is in in this province. However, there is a fundamental point of conflict between what the legislation promises a tenant in this province. Section 660 of the act gives tenants certain rights so that they are notified by your government through the use of the NR form. Your government has decided not to issue these NR forms. Not thousands, hundreds of thousands of forms. And I now have come to uh be advised that there is a report on your desk that the whole program be scrapped because of the rent registry program because in fact we're looking at millions and millions of more dollars in order to make it work. Would you please confirm to this house as you have graciously confirmed the other tough decisions you've had to make that you will be making this decision and very soon and you will advise this >> minister? Well, minister, I want to uh uh assure the honorable member that within within all ministries of government, uh we are being asked to make some some decisions like that and it's a case of uh where are we going to put the resources that are available to us. That decision has not been made. Uh I can't tell them whether or not it will be made, but it uh it's, you know, obviously it's part of the legislation and I can't just dismiss it. Uh but I can tell them that there's a couple of other parts of the regulation that I have not proclaimed yet simply because I don't have the excuse me, it's not that I don't have the resources, but I've chosen to put them somewhere else, at least temporarily. And until I've got a better fix as to how long I'm going to need them someplace else, I can't make the the decision that he's asking me to make. >> New question. The member for Kitchener. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of the Environment. >> It is estimated that this province produces about 400,000 tons of newsprint per year. And if all that were recycled, we could save about 6.8 million trees a year. We're currently collecting about half that in our tremendously successful blue box program. But I'm only aware of a handful of newspapers who are actually using recycled paper. the Financial Post, the Toronto Sun, the Brford Expositor, the St. Katherine Standard, and the Kitchener Waterlue Record. Many Ontario newspapers are still using unrecycled print, and I'm wondering if there's anything that we can do to encourage our newspapers to use recycled newsprint. >> Minister, >> most certainly. The member the member certainly raises the the uh leader of the third party wants a yes or no answer, and he knows it'll require. >> He always does. He'll it'll require some uh elaboration. Mr. Speaker, >> this minister has a great deal to say about >> Naturally, Mr. Speaker, it would be desirable if uh the new newspapers across this province and I understand that in fact uh a good number of them intend to do so would in fact adopt as a policy uh recycled content in their paper. Now, some have had their contracts already come up and have been able to do it in a new contract. And there is one company in the province of Ontario, the Quebec and Ontario Paper Company in Thorald, which has a de-inking plant which is now able to produce paper which is both virgin fiber and has in it a component which is recycled newsprint. I expect that the major newspapers in the province as their contracts come up will in fact be stipulating that there will be recycled content in that newsprint that will be very desirable. Certainly a lot of municipalities would be favorable to that and uh our ministry's meetings with the newspaper publishers association. We have in fact ensured that they know of that message and we have had an undertaking that they would be proceeding in that direction at the earliest point in time. >> Supplementary. >> Supplementary. Mr. Speaker, one prominent newspaper had the nerve on Sunday to feature a story about the marketing problems of recycling goods, particularly newsprint, but they neglected to point out in this paper that they are actually printed itself on unsy unrecycled paper. I'm wondering if the minister is prepared to legislate the mandatory use of recycled fiber newsprint so that newspapers who are not cooperating with your suggestions will be forced to. >> That's free. >> Minister Speaker, as the uh member may be aware, uh the option that is always available to us when people do not enthusiastically embrace recycling and reduction and reuse in the province of Ontario is the opportunity to regulate the member would uh sorry recycle uh regulate no regulate. I have the I have the member over there the trying to trying to confuse me on the other side that's >> the former environment minister trying to confuse me Mr. speaker. But anyway, I will continue to say that the option of regulation is always there. We have had such enthusiastic support for recycling in the province of Ontario and certainly we have had an undertaking from the uh newspaper publishers association that they are actively pursuing this. I personally have uh been at a meeting where the representatives of the three major dies in in metropolitan Toronto were present to discuss this matter and certainly there seem to be enthusiasm amongst those people to proceed in this direction as their contracts come up. Naturally they're not in a position at this time to break a contract as their contract come up. >> Thank you. New question the member for Nickelb. >> Thank you Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the premier. The premier may or may not know, but according to the daily food daily bread food bank, there are between 80 and 90,000 people per month using the food bank in this worldass city of yours called metropolitan Toronto. I wonder if the u if the premier could tell us what plans his government has to make food banks nothing but an embarrassing memory for this province. here. >> Premier Mr. >> Speaker, we have very extensive plans that I think the Minister of Community and Social Service could bring you up to date on >> to the Minister of Community and Social Services. >> Mr. Speaker, I think that uh none of us are at all content to see that food banks are there. And indeed, that's why what we've been trying to do is to focus specifically uh on the issues of of poverty and how to provide more assistance uh specifically to uh single parents to children uh so that those uh kinds of services are are not required. If you look at the major reforms which uh this government brought in in the spring which are now being implemented through the fall and uh with further uh increases in January uh we believe that that is going to be putting money directly into the pockets of those who who most need it. Much more still remains to be done, but in our view that is the most effective way to deal with this issue, which is to get assistance uh to those at the lower end of the economic scale so that they have more money for food and they have more money for shelter. >> Supplementary. >> Um I'm not uh I'm not convinced that what you're going to do will will be nearly enough to to get rid of food banks in this in uh in metropolitan Toronto. And if I could remind the minister as well that approximately out of that 80 and 90 between 80 90,000 people who use the food bank around 14,000 are the working poor in metropolitan Toronto. Could I ask the minister if he's done his job of lobbying the treasur to make sure that people who are working and still receiving income below the poverty level will no longer pay provincial income tax in the province of Ontario. Have you done your job in that regard, >> Minister? [applause] Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that we have been looking at a number of ways in which we want to help those who uh uh are not able to help themselves or who are at that uh that edge where it is difficult to make ends meet. Uh the reforms that we announced, the the step program by which we're putting people back into jobs and phasing in the way in which they receive assistance before they move on to uh uh help. uh the kinds of uh of programs that we're bringing forward in terms of developing uh better jobs and and providing assistance for better training so workers can have uh improved jobs. There are whole series of things that obviously have to be done and we have to keep talking not only as a member of cabinet to the treasur or to other colleagues but we also have to carry that message out to the broader public in terms of the recognition of how important it is that we ensure that uh we make changes so that people are receiving more adequate compensation. >> New question the member for Stormmont Dundas Bengary. >> Thank you Mr. Speaker to the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Mr. I'm sure is aware statements made by one of his parliamentary assistants, my neighbor and colleague, the member from Cornwall to the effect that a family farm interest rebate program would likely be restored next year. Mr. Minister, can you tell us now what sort of a program will it be and get farmers ready to be to be able to utilize to best advantage this anticipated program? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. I I think we can accept the remarks of my parliamentary assistant who, by the way, I'd like to say uh is doing one heck of a job at representing Eastern Ontario and agriculture and for me. And I'd like to applaud him for doing that, Mr. Speaker. But I I accept those remarks in good faith, Mr. Speaker, as encouragement to me to review as I am all the financial uh programs we have within the ministry. And I'm looking at the farm financial programs of past and present to come up with a very good package of farm programs later on this year. That's good. >> Supplementary. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, surely, Mr. Minister, you will be aware that farmers need a little bit of lead time to get prepared for this. Federation of Agriculture has lobbyed long and hard. So has this party for a replacement of the OPER program. We have higher interest rates now than we had when the program was initiated. Mr. Minister, tell Ontario's agricultural community now when this program will come about so that we can get ready for it. Minister. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, my my friend in the third party obviously is aware of the budget cycles and that it's impossible for ministries to announce programs at the end of the budget cycle. We prepare our planning now for the next budget cycle that begins April the 1st. And it's impossible to say now what we're going to be doing, but I am obviously consulting with all those groups that uh are talking to us and giving them their views. And we're listening. And I think the member is going to be pleased uh come the spring with all the announcement this government will be bringing to help all the people of this province. >> That's good. Even as a tourist. >> New question. The member for Durham West. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Energy. And I would like to ask the minister if she's aware of the situation at the Pickering Nuclear Generating Plant involving radioactive water, specifically drums of radioactive water and other materials that are crammed in the corridors of that plant. The Atomic Energy Control Board recently criticized Ontario Hydro for poor housekeeping at the Pickering plant and said that poor maintenance maintenance at the plant could lead to doses of radiation that are not absolutely necessary. Could you comment, Madame Minister? >> Uh yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um I was indeed aware of the concerns that have been expressed by the Atomic Energy Control Board, which as the honorable member knows, is the monitoring and regulatory agency uh for the Pickering plant. As for other uh nuclear generating plants in the province of Ontario, uh I certainly did not have to bring that concern to the attention of Ontario Hydro who've been made well aware of it uh through the report of the ECB. Uh they have responded uh to the concerns that were identified both by increasing their staff at at Pickering and and at Bruce to deal with the backlog of maintenance work uh specifically related to some of the housekeeping issues identified and they are also taking a new approach to the storage of trilated heavy water. I would also recognize of course that once the uh tridium removal facility is is fully functional that the actual storage of treatiated heavy water at Pickering would be reduced to a minimum. >> Supplementary >> my supplementary Mr. Min or Mr. Speaker is that because safety factors are so crucial at a nuclear generating plant. Can the minister give us some idea of what action will be taken in the future to ensure safety at those facilities? Minister. >> Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would recognize, of course, that the u operation of the facility is very much within the jurisdiction of Ontario Hydro and again that the monitoring and regulating and the concern for inspecting the safety of that operation lies with the atomic energy control board. I think it's very important that we continue to stress the role that that independent body has in ensuring the safe operation uh is being supervised. Um specifically in relationship again to the storage of treatiated heavy water. Uh Ontario Hydro is going to be receiving new bulk containers early in the new year and those are going to be stored in a special storage area and I think that that will relieve the concerns about the safety of storage of those minimal amounts of treatiated heavy water that would continue to be stored at Pickering. >> New question the member for Wellen Thoral. >> Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Financial Institutions. Mr. Speaker, Larry Stanley is a uh young family head in Well, 31 years old, two children, a wife that he supports with his job uh at local industry. Now, for some good chunk of time now, who has had his auto insurance provided by Wellington Insurance. His uh wife, you should know, Mr. Speaker, is an epileptic and her epilepsy was under control by virtue of the medication that she took last year when she was pregnant with uh with the Stanley second child. She was sick. She vomited on a daily basis and was unable to keep that medication down. As a result of that, she had a seizure, the first one she'd had in a considerable period of time. Not while she was driving a car, uh, but a seizure nonetheless. Her doctor appropriately reported that to the ministry, and her license was suspended. Her driving privileges are suspended. She cannot drive a car. Notwithstanding that, Mr. Stanley gets a letter from his broker telling him that Wellington, because Mr. Stanley's wife is an epileptic that Wellington is no longer going to insure him. They are denying him insurance coverage and he's being forced into facility. Mr. Speaker, now uh that is the gross injustice. I ask uh I asked the minister does he in any way find that acceptable and quite frankly what's he prepared to do for Mr. Stanley? >> Minister. >> Um Mr. Speaker, actually the honorable gentleman, although sort of uh clandestinely sent me a copy of the letter from the broker area, it was addressed to Murray without an indication where it was coming from to surprise me, I suspect. But I do appreciate him bringing the letter to my attention. I don't find it acceptable in my view uh that they would use this particular uh um serious uh medical problem for a reason to disentitle Mr. Stanley. I will uh Mr. Speaker, follow up on the letter which my friend has just provided to me uh dated November 25th and I will proceed to ask the people at Wellington to provide me with a full explanation of the reason uh which they have uh uh in their minds, the legitimate reason that they have in their minds for excluding the the husband driver of the car. I don't find it uh very good at all. That completes the allotted time for oral questions and responses.