Question Period Rewind - December 12 1989

Welcome to Question Period Rewind. I'm Donna Skellyy, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. Let's go back to 1989. The most significant global event was the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe, symbolized by the fall of the Berlin Wall that marked a pivotal moment in ending the Cold War. Back at home, the Canadian Space Agency was created and combat roles in the Royal Canadian Air Force were open to women for the very first time. Now, let's tune in to the conversations the MPPPs were having. >> [music] >> Oral questions. The leader of the opposition. >> Mr. Speaker, I want to go back to the attorney general again today, Mr. speaker and try to ask him a simple question as to why it is that when section 8 of uh of the act involving retail stores makes it very clear that the attorney general has the discretion to apply to the courts for an injunction when he has reason to believe that the law is going to be broken. I want to ask the attorney general why he is not gathering information with respect to which stores are planning to open on Sunday and why he is not himself bringing an injunction to make sure that these stores remain closed. >> Attorney General Speaker, the answer is the same as the answer I gave yesterday. >> Supplementary. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the attorney general can tell us does he is can he stand in the house and tell us what is the average length of time that it takes for uh uh a case to be heard in the county of Peele uh and in York region? Can he can he can he tell us how long he thinks it will be before any charges that are laid in the month of December 1989? How long it will take those uh charges to be heard? >> Attorney General, Mr. speaker on whether the accused is in custody or not, whether it is a bylaw enforcement matter or whether it is not or whether the matter is given urgency by the presiding judge. >> Final supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, I I can tell the attorney general from uh from my experience of uh cases that that I have known in in York Region and in Peele >> that first of all, you have uh cases are being delayed by as much as a year and a year and a half before they are heard. that in some instances cases are taking so long to come to judges that judges themselves are throwing them out on constitutional grounds and that argument is is being applied with respect to many charges that are coming before judges. I want to ask the attorney general does he not realize that the law is seen as a joke. it is seen as a scoff law that it's that its enforcement is seen as a joke that your actions are seen as a joke and that your failure to bring an injunction sends the clearest possible signal to uh to these stores that they >> seemed to be about three supplementaries in that >> I didn't hear any question I heard a certain New question. >> The leader of the opposition. >> Mr. Speaker, I think we've seen arrogance. I I the question was, do you not realize >> I I've seen arrogance I've seen arrogance in my time, Mr. Speaker, but never such. >> Mr. Speaker, order >> order. >> The speaker said there were three questions. >> Order. >> Any of the above. You guys back here. >> Have you all finished? >> New question. The leader of the opposition. And to which minister? >> My question is to the Minister of Housing. >> I'd like to ask the minister this question. There are now 42,000 families that are on the waiting list for assisted housing. There are at least 54,000 applications from co-op housing groups and nonprofit groups throughout the province for uh funding from the ministry for the future. Now, the ministry has just completed its program called homes now with its most recent announcement with respect to nonprofit housing. I want to ask the minister, does the government of Ontario intend to bring in a new program, an Ontario program funded exclusively by the Ontario government for the funding of nonprofit and cooperative housing in Ontario. >> Minister, >> well, Mr. Speaker, I would uh remind my honorable friend that at the present time, Ontario is the only province in Canada that has such a program and in fact is uh right on and in fact over the uh over the three-year period covering 88, 89 and 90 will be producing more nonprofit housing than all the rest of the country put together. So Ontario is doing a lot. Uh I would also point out to the honorable member that the uh that the capital cost of that program is in excess of $3 billion and the accumulated uh subsidy cost of that program when it reaches maturity in 93 will be uh in excess of $900 million compared with $150 million when this government was formed in 1985. So there's been tremendous progress there. Uh obviously the government is going to have to look very very carefully at its total housing uh policy and total housing initiatives uh over the next year or so to determine where it goes from here. That decision has not yet been made. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, uh no one denies the fact that uh that Ontario has a program which was negotiated during the period of the accord. No one denies the fact, Mr. Speaker, that uh there is a need. There are now there are now, Mr. Speaker, while the attorney general is laughing, I can tell him I can tell the attorney general while he's laughing and showing his general contempt for the rest of the world >> that there are in fact 20,000 homeless people in Toronto. >> There are 20,000 homeless people in Toronto, Mr. Speaker, >> back for another report, buddy. and uh these people as well as the tens of thousands more who are underhoused and poorly housed which led to the the view that there are in your report in 1988 that there are some 200,000 households that are caught in the cycle of homelessness. I want to ask the the minister why he wouldn't be announcing a continuing commitment from the government of Ontario so that people can know that in fact their applications are going to be considered and that their place on the waiting list means something rather than simply meaning they're on a waiting list for nowhere. >> Minister, >> well, Mr. Speaker, uh the honorable um the honorable member is correct when he said that the bulk of the uh 30,000 units for homes now have been allocated. I believe the last figure I saw was 28,000 out of the 30 are now allocated. But I'm I'm sure that the honorable leader of the official opposition is also aware of the fact that uh that is a long way from completed projects. He will he will be well aware of the fact that many of these allocations were given in 1988 and are in terms under construction. Now the allocations which were just given yesterday uh in many cases will not be completed uh during 90 or even into 91. So, we've still got a long way to go on the existing program and uh I what I tried to suggest to him in my first answer is that we have not yet uh formulated the next step in the entire affordable shelter program. That's part of the process that's coming up. But we're right now in the middle of a very very ambitious program and uh the 30,000 I would remind them started just last year and uh that's going to take us a couple of years to work that one through the entire system. We have a couple of years to decide what the next step is going to be and what form it's going to take. That decision has not yet been taken. >> Final supplementary. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, if the minister just said they have a couple of years, that's that's absolute nonsense. You don't have a couple of years. You've got a whole cooperative and nonprofit movement out there with plans on the books, with plans that are ready to go. You've got the cost of land spiraling and escalating in many parts of the province to the point where land is no longer affordable for many, many people. I I can't believe the minister honestly believes that he's got a couple of years. Is let me ask the minister. Are you seriously saying that when you've got 42,000 people on uh a waiting list, when you've got 54,000 applications in, are you seriously saying you can afford to wait one or two years before you announce your program for the future? Minister >> Speaker, what I tried to suggest to the honorable leader was that the program that is currently in place will take at least two years to work its way through and therefore and I'm not suggesting that we wait until that one is complete before we start the next one. I I recognize what the honorable leader is saying that there's got to be some lead time and decisions will be made in sufficient lead time as we uh as we have all the way along. I would uh I would also remind the honorable leader of the official opposition uh that we we have an ongoing um cost shared program with the federal government which is providing somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 to 6,000 units a year. We're still working on that. That's part of the process as well. Uh and the third thing I would point out to the uh uh to my honorable colleague is that uh I have met with the uh nonprofit association and the cooperative association and indicated to them that along with these kinds of projects, I want to work with them with with a with a wider range, a wider base of projects that are going to provide affordable housing. The nonprofit one is not the only route we're going. We're going to continue to go that route, but we want to expand it even beyond that into other types of housing. >> New question. the member for Cernia. >> With some degree of trepidation, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for uh the attorney general. In the spirit of Christmas, I want to ask the attorney general. I don't want to upset him and I don't want to get him angry. I simply want to know if the attorney general is aware that York Region has indicated that any charges that are laid in connection with the breaking of the law as it relates to Sunday openings will probably not be any of these charges will not be heard until February of 1991. Does that concern the attorney general? And what action, if it does concern him, does your ministry intend to take to either assist with that particular backlog of cases or to help correct the situation, which is obviously not a uh a particular problem that we can live with here in the province of Ontario. Mr. >> Speaker, that if I may say so without ruining the leaders leadership chances, that's an excellent question. Now it's >> it's the it's essentially the same question as the leader of the opposition asked. But the trouble with his questions is if it's going to rain tomorrow, that's bad management on the part of the government. If the sun comes up, it's because it was mentioned in the accord. So I'm really delighted uh to get this question from the honorable member and to explain that uh that in in New Market which is the regional town for York Region there is a significant backlog problem which has existed for five or six years which leads to out of custody cases being tried about a year 11 months down the pike. Uh a year ago we established delay reduction committees in the six communities in Ontario which have this kind of delay problem, this kind of historic problem which is connected with very large growth in those communities. Uh those delay reduction committees under the leadership of the local judge have been working well and because disposition rates have improved and delay times have been reduced often very significantly we have put new resources into those regions and the honorable member will know that I believe two new judges and three new crown attorneys have been promised for new market. Those positions are being filled at the moment and we hope to have those new resources in place shortly. I'm very grateful for the question because it allows me to remind honorable members about this delay. >> Thank you. >> Supplementary. >> Attorney General's even going to be more grateful for the supplementary. The supplementary, sir, uh is that recognizing that judges have rather arbitrarily established 15 months as a period of time in which they will simply dismiss charges because of the charter uh reservations that they have and the consequences of those delays. Can the minister give any assurance to this house that charges now being laid by the police forces in York and other regions where there are court backlogs that those cases will be heard certainly within that 15-month time frame or earlier if at all possible so that those who are illegally opening on a Sunday who are breaking the law who are causing havoc at the moment with respect to Sunday shopping laws will in fact be prosecuted in the appropriate manner. >> Attorney General, Mr. >> Speaker, I can give the honorable member the assurance he wants. I would just do so uh adding one reservation. The honorable member refers and we see it in the press to suggestions that judges have picked 15 months as the time be if there's delay beyond that which will lead to a dismissal of the prosecution. In fact, the appeals that have been taken from those judgments to the court of appeal for Ontario are not supporting that conclusion. And in fact, in the circumstances when the results of the appeals are looked at, it cannot be concluded that there is any arbitrary time or indeed that the time is 15 months. But I'm very conscious of what the honorable member says. I think we can give the assurance that he requires. Uh this government has made plain to communities which for demographic reasons have big population increases that if they will establish delay reduction committees to work with the bench within existing resources that when those committees begin to produce results as they have been doing. Delay times in Ottawa were reduced from 15 months to nine with no new resources. When those committees begin to produ produce results, new resources are provided as they have been in York Region. >> Thank you. >> Final supplementary. >> The attorney general U said some time ago, and I quote, "Persistent violators will be dealt with in accordance with the provisions of the legislation. The act now permits the attorney general or a municipality to apply for injunctive relief against persistent violators. I have no doubt that this route will be pursued soon as a sufficient case can be made for so doing. I would suggest to the attorney general that over 80 stores which have chosen to be opened over the course of the past few weeks illegally uh supports the position that you took in your statement that a case can now be made to vigorously pursue these particular individuals. I would like and and corporations. Would the attorney general share with this house whether in fact it is his intention to become more actively involved as is his right under uh bill 13 I believe it is but section 8 of that bill. Will the attorney general take the option that's available to him and vigorously pursue this matter in order to stop the kind of illegal openings that are happening each and every Sunday and have for the past few weeks? >> Attorneyary question. >> Mr. Speaker, we uh as I indicated to the honorable member yesterday and presumably will have to indicate every day until the Christmas shopping season is over. uh we have decided what the appropriate role for the attorney general under section 8 is and what role is appropriate for the municipalities. The honorable member will be glad to know that the municipalities in southern Ontario have recognized that and the regional municipality of metropolitan Toronto and the regional municipality of Peele have commenced those proceedings. We have indicated repeatedly and I'm delighted to uh emphasize again that if there are difficulties that the regional municipalities have as there appear to be in one instance as a result of the honorable Mr. Justice Pot's decision that we will be delighted to support the municipalities in advancing their case. As I said the other day, I've communicated that in written form to chairman talks in metropolitan Toronto and I make the same pledge to any other community that has commenced or is prepared to commence a an injunction proceeding. We will support them vigorously. >> New question, the member for Cernia. >> My question is to the minister of health. Madame Minister, as you are aware, as of January the 1st of 1990, your government will be introducing an employer health levy to cover what was previously known as the OHIP premiums that were paid by individuals. Some of these individuals who previously were paying their own premiums under OHIP will no longer be required to do so as of January the 1st of 1990. those that are receiving bills now for the first quarter of 1990, individuals I'm speaking of, if they refuse to pay and for uh whatever reason end up in a hospital January, February, March or April of 1990. You have indicated that they will have access to the health system. You have not indicated who will pay for an individual who has refused to pay the OHIP premium for the first part of 1990. Could you now clarify for the house who will pay that that particular charge if the individual ends up in the hospital or requiring the attention of a physician in that period of time? >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. And uh as I begin the answer to this question, the leader of the third party has asked this question before. I would encourage him and members opposite not to create confusion around this matter. And I'll try to be very very clear. All residents of Ontario will have access to health care services as of January the 1st and beyond as we are through the transitional period as we move from premiums to in fact taxation as a method of funding healthcare services. >> That's very clear. Clearly, all residents who will receive their last premium notice prior to January the 1st are expected to follow the instructions accompanying their last premium notice as is the reality today. Mr. Speaker >> supplementary. >> The minister in this house has said repeatedly that she wants factual information to be shared with the 9 and a half million citizens of Ontario. In the interest of pursuing that common goal of having factual information, will the minister state simply and remove from her her vocabulary the word access? Because I'm not at the moment I'm not at the moment asking a question about access to health facilities. I am asking a question about payment upon access to those facilities. If an individual refuses to pay because in their mind they're being double bill, Madame Minister, will they in fact be build in the first quarter of 1990 if they refuse to pay the OHIP? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the leader of the third party that I believe that the treasurer very aly as he always has and I'm sure always will uh has answered the question regarding the issue that the member opposite raises and I think fully to the satisfaction of most objective observers. for the interest of the um uh leader of the third party. We are communicating directly with residents regarding payment of their last premium notice during this period of transition. I would say to him again that I would encourage him not to create confusion on this matter and I would state again that in fact all residents will have access to health services in the province of Ontario. Final supplementary. >> Somehow or another, in spite of my attempts to remove the word access, which is a different question entirely, the minister has included that in her response. Let me try the question another way. Madam Minister, since you have consistently taken the position that double billing is not part of the format of the introduction of the new employer health levy, maybe the minister could indicate to the people of Ontario in order to keep this information factually correct. How much additional money are you collecting as a result of the change in system from OHIP premiums to the employer health levy? And before you answer the question, I'm going to tell the people of Ontario it's well in accessible. >> Thank you. >> Sorry, >> Minister. >> Today's the leader of the third party that I'm proud of the initiative of this government to convert from a premium to a tax levy. And I would say to him that that results in a $1 billion tax cut in the pockets of the taxpayers, the people OF THIS PROVINCE. THAT IS VERY CLEAR. It was recommended by the SAR report on welfare reform and he should be supporting this as well and I would ask him to stop trying to confuse the people of this province. We are committed to the principles of Medicare which are and I will spell them out for him. Universality. >> I think Andy needs another apple. >> Order. Order. Are you finished wasting the time? >> Order, are you finished? >> New question. The member for Rainy River. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The minister will understand that tourism is a very important economic activity in northwestern Ontario. Operators, tourist operators and community representatives regularly attend sports shows in several Midwestern US cities in order to market our tourism uh activities. They are somewhat dismayed, however, that your ministry, the Ministry of Tourism, does not attend many of these sports shows and does not offer marketing assistance or information assistance in order to attract tourist dollars from the Midwest of the US into Northwestern Ontario. Can you explain why your ministry has abandoned many of these sports shows? why you don't perform an aggressive marketing role on behalf of tourism. >> Minister Northwest >> Minister. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I should first of all tell the member that his facts are incorrect. I'm not sure where he's getting them, but he is obviously not getting the correct facts. >> My ministry is continuing, as it has in the past, to support tourism operators from across this province. is continuing through the OTAAP program to provide monies to regional uh for regional marketing programs. It is continuing to do marketing at regional trade shows across the United States through some of the television and radio advertising we do in the northern northeastern United States, those states which border northwestern Ontario. We are continuing to feature Northern Ontario and Northern Ontario destinations in our advertising. So, I'm not sure, Mr. minister where the member gets his facts but they are not correct. >> Supplementary you got it. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, maybe it would help if the minister attended uh meetings when the associations of chambers of commerce of northwestern Ontario come to Queens Park to talk to cabinet because they made it very clear to the premier, they made it very clear to the minister of northern development that they are quite upset that your ministry does not attend these sports shows. Your ministry used to attend them. Your ministry used to perform a very valuable specific function and that is explain regulations whether they be ministry of natural resource regulations or whether they be accommodation regulations. You used to explain these types of things to potential clients, but your ministry is no longer there. And so representatives of of the Northwestern Ontario Tourism Association and the Chambers of Commerce want to know why you're not there and why they have to do your job for you. >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to tell the member that the Ministry of Tourism still has a strong presence at trade shows in the United States. I'll repeat the comments I made earlier. We continue to provide marketing support through several media. Now, surely the member would not be expecting my ministry to continue to do things as it did two or three decades ago. Times change, marketing strategies change, the tourism market is changing, and we need to keep up to date. I want the member to know that I've traveled extensively in northwestern Ontario since my appointment. I have met with tourism operators from across the Northwest and will continue to do so and we're happy to work in partnership with them. New question, the member for Perry Sound. >> Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health. Uh, Madame Minister, in absence again today of the premier of the province of Ontario, I would like to return you to the issue of the Stella Laqua inquest and the juror jury's recommendations. On October the 12th of 1989, the premier said in this house, and I quote, "As I understand what the minister of health has just said, there is a system in place, but the system was not used." So the question is why was the system which is in place and to the best of my knowledge functions well most of the time not used? Beds were were available. The question is why was it not used? Do you still stand by your premier statement of October the 12th and yours of many subsequent occasions that there was a provincewide emergency care hotline number and system in place and Dr. Nazdouli and everybody else was at blame for not using the system because that's what he said. I just quoted what he said. Will you now not stand up and admit that you were wrong? >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Mr. Speaker, uh I think it's very important when we discuss these issues that we recognize that the existing system and we refer to our health care system as a system. We say that it is good. In fact, we know that some of the features of the existing system is that it is uncoordinated and fragmented and we are working in fact together to develop networks. What the premier was referring to was the letter that I tabled in this house from the Toronto General Hospital outlining the system that they had in place. The Toronto General Hospital at the inquest stood by as factual the information in their letter and I think Mr. Speaker that letter was presented to this house in good faith. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, the question may well have been the question is not whether or not the letter was presented to this house in good faith. Nobody's questioning that. Vickery Stoutton, the author of the letter, himself admitted during the coroner's inquest that there is no provincialwide system and there is no hotline. It's an emergency phone in the emergency department of the hospital. That's all it is. That's not what you said. I quote from you and I quote Madame Minister on October the 12th the emergency order >> order. I'm afraid the member is having to shout for some reason. Perhaps the member would place his supplementary. >> I am shouting, Mr. speaker to get through the minister's thick skull. >> Perhaps the member would just want to remain seated and not ask a supplementary because because we do have a standing order that we do not like abusive and insulting language. Do you have a supplementary? Mr. >> Speaker, first of all, I would like to withdraw the last comment. Second of all, I would like to ask my supplementary. >> Madame Minister, you have said in this house on many occasions that we have a worldclass health care system. I think that when your premier and yourself as minister of health go out of their way to make disparaging remarks in public about a med me member of the medical profession which have subsequently been proved by a coroner's jury to be inaccurate and infactual. The very least that you can do as Minister of Health is to stand up and be world class yourself and admit you made a mistake and publicly apologize. Will you do that now for the last time? Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, the quote that the member has read into the record in the House today is a direct quote from the letter from the Toronto General Hospital, which they stand by as being completely accurate and factual. It was presented to this house in good faith. I would say to him that in fact the evidence before the coroner's jury was that in fact that information >> order perhaps the member for Perry Sound I would remind him of standing order 20B every member has the right to be heard without interruption by any other member except on a point of order minister >> that information was made available from the Toronto Hospital Corporation Two hospitals outside of the province, the Midland Hospital had that information and Dr. Nezdulli said that he knew of the number and decided not to call. Those were the facts. I've never questioned medical judgment. That letter only stated what was in existence at the Toronto General Hospital. I would say to him I would say to him that I announced last June our intention to establish regional numbers to develop a network to share information. That's what we announced in June. That is what we are moving to implement. Mr. Speaker, I would say to the member opposite that it is very important when we talk about the health care system today to realize that in fact every hospital has their own system and that the health care system we believe can be improved by developing networks, sharing information and working together to provide the information that both doctors, hospitals and consumers need to make informed choices. >> Seems like a fairly lengthy new question. The member for Nepian. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. And we'll see whether my question will elicit as many interjections as the >> And to which me minister? >> It's to the Minister of the Environment, and he's always a pleasure with the opposition. >> Uh, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Minister, I was very pleased to learn that my own neighborhood of Bar Haven was recently the subject of a Ministry of the Environment study on plastics recycling. The study found that plastics recovery is feasible through the blue box program. However, some people in Ottawa Carlton and I understand also in the Toronto area are raising questions about the economic viability of plastics recycling. Can the minister comment on these questions? >> Minister, >> yes, Mr. Mr. Speaker, I certainly can and uh I want to commend those who have been involved in the Bar Haven uh project because I think it was particularly useful. There are several communities in Ontario that are involved in plastics recycling. I think Missaga and G and here in Toronto as well as the experimental one in Baraven. Uh the demonstration project I think uh certainly in my view uh proves that uh uh such a project can work without requiring onboard compaction equipment with only a small amount of extra time. Uh some people will point out well some people will point out this is a good point. I'm glad the member for the Ottawa area has brought this out because some people will try to point out that recycling is not >> uh cost effective. What they don't take into account are the following things, Mr. Speaker. They don't take into account the landfill site selection, the cost of expropriation, the loss of farmland, the operating the cost of operating a modern safe landfill site, the closure of the landfill site, and the perpetual care and monitoring. I'm convinced, Mr. Speaker, I am convinced that if people will take into consideration what the real cost of landfill or incineration is, they will decide that not only for the environment but for the bottom line that recycling is superior. Here exactly right, [applause] >> supplementary. >> Yes. Uh thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm glad that members of the opposition are taking an interest in this question which I think is of very great importance across the province. Mr. Uh, Minister, my neighborhood of Bar Haven took a great interest in this project of plastics recycling and I certainly hope we can continue this program. Can the minister outline what initiatives his ministry is taking to encourage new technologies and new markets as well for plastics recycling? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I could probably name many, but I'll pick a couple of examples only. First of all, our industrial 3RS program provides assistance for all industrial and commercial sectors to take advantage of new opportunities for waste diversion from either landfill or incineration. Activities eligible for funding include feasibility studies, process or equipment modification or evaluation, demonstration projects, and research. There are a couple. Custom Cryogenic Grinding Incorporated received a grant of 541,000 towards a recycling plant for plastic, rubber, and leather. The plants now under construction will be able to process 13 million pounds of plastic. Polymer Development Corporation recently received a grant of 610,000 to help establish a scrap plastic recycling operation of municipal, commercial, and industrial plastics presently destined for disposal. I won't go into the details of that. Mr. Speaker, except to say >> thank you. Thank you. New new question. The member for Riverdale. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health. Uh there is a panel reviewing the decision-making process uh about the merger between Women's College Hospital and the Toronto Hospital. The city of Toronto's medical officer of health is looking at the proposed merger from the perspective of access to health care, but we don't yet have the promised vision statement from the two boards and people are becoming increasingly concerned that the Toronto Hospital is being handed a blank check. Uh, will the minister tell us what her view is of the future of Women's College? Minister. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to say to uh my critic in the uh seats opposite that in fact I have confidence in the boards of the hospitals who govern the hospitals of this province. I often refer to them as nonprofit private corporations. Uh the ministry as you know has agreed to an independent review of the process leading to uh the uh merger decision. Uh it's my understanding that that uh team if it has not already been been announced will be very soon and that they will review the process that led to that decision >> supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, I have a lot less confidence in the track record of hospital boards involving the public in wide raging discussion about their futures than the minister seems to have. And quite frankly, I remember uh as a outside viewer a 1983 statement by a a gentleman member of this house who is now the premier of the province who said that there there had to be wide public consultation with all the people affected by the decisions being involved. He said that on February the 15th, 1983. and further that the minister and he he meant the minister of the day had an obligation to table in the house and share with everybody concerned all the facts about rationalizations or mergers of services. >> Sounds like a good idea. >> Would would the minister take the premier's advice and table in the house all the information that she has about this merger so that people can assure themselves >> Thank you. that the culture of women's college hospital >> question asked minister >> here >> uh I think I should declare openly in this house that I was born at women's college hospital just so that if that matter in fact comes up in the future uh you might know I would just uh say to the member opposite that hospital mergers begin as an initiative from the hospitals uh they are decisions that rest with the uh independent hospital boards. I want him to know however that the ministry and and I have been speaking about the importance of hospitals working together. They decide best how to do that. But in fact it is important that we look at how services are provided and focus our attention not only on the process of decisionmaking but ensuring ourselves that we are having the most effective quality care whose results often referred to as outcomes will lead to a healthier society. >> New question the member for Markham. >> In spite of the fact that the Minister of Health was born at Women's College we support it anyway. But my my question is to the Minister of Revenue. Mr. speaker. Uh on October 17th, I asked the Minister of Revenue on his views on Metro Toronto's proposal for market value reassessment. At that time, he indicated that the matter was under serious review by his ministry. It's now almost two months later and I would like to ask the minister once again where does he stand on market value reassessment for Metro Toronto? Minister >> Speaker, the matter is still under serious review. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, the Metro's commercial sector is going to be subsidizing Metro's property tax proposals. Commercial establishments will also be paying a new tax in the commercial concentration levy. A committee for Metro's finance officers has been established to prepare the implementation plan for market value reassessment. You as Minister of Revenue will be paying 11.5 million for a study to assess the property values in Metro. Is Metro's proposal for market value reassessment a FedEmplete? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, the proposal is just that. It is the proposal of the of the corporation of the um of the greater metropolitan Toronto area. It is a proposal uh uh similar in some aspects and and dissimilar in other ways to the more than 600 uh reassessments that have already taken place here in the province of Ontario. For a for a uh reassessment to take place, Mr. Speaker, the uh local municipality, the region or the county must in fact pass a resolution asking for such a reassessment to take place. The responsibility of course therefore lies with the local municipalities. >> The member for Markham had already asked a supplementary new new question. The member for Willowdale. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Transportation. We are all aware of the problem of traffic congestion in Metropolitan Toronto. And in spite of the federal government's cuts to VR rail, our government has been making great strides in encouraging people to use public transit. One way we have been encouraging public transit is through the expansion and promotion of GO transit, especially the concept of driving to the station and parking the car there. Your ministry has been doing an excellent job in this area, perhaps even a too good of a job. In one of the old commer go station Leslie Street, there is a very serious problem. There is a very limited parking. The parking lot is normally filled at capacity quite early in the morning and people who drive to the station often have nowhere to park. I have three parking tickets here from local residents who could not find parking spots. >> So, they parked at the side of the parking lot. >> Order, I think. Maybe the member should be careful with his request. However, I would like I'd like to uh I'd like to hear a question. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. They're not my parking tickets. They're parking tickets of constituents of mine. I want you to know that these people are parked at the side of the parking lot, not blocking anyone and not on a far route. As there is quite a bit of vacant land surrounding the go station, >> can we expect any expansion of the parking lots so that people can take go transit to work >> without the phasing every fines for supposedly I'm >> I have to ask the minister did you hear the question or would you like to hear it again? >> No speaker u Mr. Speaker, I should uh I should tell the um should tell the honorable member I received a parking ticket uh on Saturday morning while I was selling newspapers for the Good Fellows back in Windsor. And uh and I hope my friend from Windsor Riverside got one as well cuz we left at about the same time. And uh and I paid the ticket and I certainly wouldn't want to leave I certainly want wouldn't want to leave any impression that uh that uh I have anything but uh sympathy for the parking ticket. Please don't send it over here uh on the supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I can tell the honorable member that we do have a problem at Oldcomer Station and indeed a lot of stations on the go route as the very outstanding expansion of that system has led to some uh some difficulties in terms of parking. We are we are having a meeting uh I believe next Wednesday with the affected counselors indeed with those who are involved in studies uh in North York uh as phase two of the uh of the planning study that is now underway in terms of expansion of the uh of the parking facilities at Old Cumber Station. It is a problem and we're trying to resolve. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Speaker, even though the people, the honorable members of this house may think that this is a funny thing, it is not funny for those people that go to work to earn a living and park their cars there and they find a fine a parking ticket tag when they go back home. The supplementary is, Mr. Mr Speaker, in the meantime, can the minister ask GO Transit security people to use this question not to ticket cars that may parked illegally, provide, of course, they are not blocking anyone or interfering with the traffic flow? And furthermore, can anything be done to avoid those parking tickets that people have received from GO Transit? Thank you, >> Minister. >> Minister, >> well, Mr. Speaker, I I can say and and and and there is a there is a suggestion that in the spirit of the Christmas season that perhaps I should announce that all tickets are voided. But certainly, Mr. Speaker, GO Transit has the authority in this area uh to uh to hand out tickets and I wouldn't want to impinge upon their authority. I can say to the honorable member and to the house that that the officials of GO Transit, the enforcement officials who do on occasion give out tickets also on a lot of occasions do use uh their discretion uh which is given to them and try to show some sensitivity in this case. We realize, Mr. Speaker, that we have a uh that we have an important challenge. I hope that the public recognizing that we do have these challenges which we're trying to meet will also meet the challenge in their own way by enhancing the amount of car pooling that is being done in an effort to alleviate some of the problems that are that are occurring. >> Thank you. >> You resign. >> We'll just wait. Order. >> Order. >> Is that your friend? >> Order. >> New question. The member for Hamilton West. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question to the Minister of Community and Social Services. Janice Ryel, who is a constituent in my writing, 44 years old, nurse, afflicted with severe arthritis, has had to retire. She applied successfully to vocational rehabilitation for a program. But when she applied to family benefits for uh personal support allowance, she was refused because she has in excess of $3,000 in an RRSP, which arose out of the transfer of her pensionable savings as a nurse into an RRSP, which is currently in trust with a with a with a company. Is that fair, Mr. Minister? And what are you doing about the asset rules that would uh relieve persons like Janice Ryel from the kind of treatment that she's received in seeking to retrain herself for new occupation? >> Minister, now >> thank you very much. Uh Mr. Speaker, I uh am not aware of the uh specifics of the particular question you raised. I can say that in terms of the amount I know that that is at the limit of what is allowed by the uh the federal government at this time. We have received from a number of people questions around this and at the last federal provincial meeting of uh ministers responsible for social services. We raised uh this issue in terms of looking at how we could make some changes to reflect uh changes in uh in the world around us and and problems of the sort that you mentioned. I would be certainly prepared to look at that specific case, but it does go beyond uh what we uh in the province are able to do ourselves in making changes to those rules. >> Supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, this uh question was laid on the minister by the social assistance review committee. um he may recall and the legislation under CAP allows you as a province to determine what is or is not a liquid asset and allows you to establish your own asset ceiling. And secondly, the CAP guidelines permit assets above ceiling if the money is in a special fund or trust for purposes deemed socially important by the provincial administration. Isn't it important that Janice Ryell keep head have a hedge against uh being one of those single poor women who are one of the most important and difficult poverty sectors that we face? Isn't that a socially important consideration for this this administration? >> Minister uh Mr. Speaker uh indeed and I think that would be uh one of the directions that we we would want to go. I would have to say that in making changes to the specific uh rules and guidelines uh that we have to be aware of what the implications of those are. I can tell the member that I will look specifically at uh this case to see in which way we can uh uh help and and provide assistance and that we are looking uh and I say as well to the member that we are looking at that specific uh matter and it has been raised by uh different organizations with me uh during the fall uh and we are trying to come to some determination of how we can help. There are some areas uh with respect to this question where we I believe have been able to make some positive changes around the question of assets but we have not been able to uh uh fully deal with that issue. Uh so I will make the commitment to deal specifically with the individual in question uh and to continue to try to resolve the broader question. >> New question the member for Durham East. >> Thank you very much Mr. Speaker. And I have a question to the Minister of Energy. and a minister, my colleague from Lee's Granville had asked last week a question to the Minister of Industry whether he was concerned about the lack of electricity being provided to Ontario Industries. I've been contacted by the president of Lasco Steel located in the town of Whitby. I represent a portion of that municipality. He indicated to me that three days last week he had to shut his plant down, send 250 employees home because Ontario Hydro could not produce electricity. This is while Ontario Hydro is telling us to unplug Christmas lights. And at the Darlington generating station located in my writing, there's a huge billboard all lit up with Christmas lights saying season's greetings. Now, would you please confirm to this house that the reason Ontario residents and employees are suffering because of lack of electricity is that this government has not made adequate plans since it's taken office and since the accord in 1985? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, I will not confirm that interpretation of the facts. [applause] I did have an opportunity uh having returned to my own writing of Thunder Bay last Thursday when the Minister of Industry Trade and Technology was asked the question about interruptions of power to specific industries. Uh I had just returned from witnessing the signing of the Manitoba purchase agreement which is a part of the plans that Ontario Hydro is putting in place to ensure security of electricity supply in the future. And I heard the Ministry of uh Industry, Trade and Technology very correctly indicate that the only industries that had had their power interrupted were those who had a portion of their power purchased on interruptible contracts. Knowing that at a point of potential shortages, very short-term shortages, that that power could be interrupted for short terms. As you are, I'm sure aware those companies secure that power at quite reasonable rates in return for that prospect of it being interruptible. And Ontario Hydro has a a very remarkable rate of ensuring reliability of electricity and a very very rare shutdowns even to their interruptible customers. I'm also as as the member is aware, I am also aware of the plans Ontario Hydro is currently in putting in place to ensure long-term >> supplementary. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Well, speaking of the Manitoba agreement, how could you and your administration confirm into signing a contract worth billions of dollars when in the first place that kind of money could be spent in Ontario and the construction of a new station, for instance, at Darlington B? And secondly, why would you enter into the agreement before Ontario Hydro has even announced its demand supply study option which was supposed to have been announced in September and then October and then November. >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. I I'm sure that the honorable member is well aware of that negotiations on the prospect of out of province hydro purchases have been going on for some time. It was important to determine whether or not those negotiations could be successfully included both for Manitoba Hydro which is looking at a very major power generation project which is important to that province as well as to Ontario Hydro so that they would know whether or not the prospect of a purchase of out of province electricity could be a part of those plans which in fact they are going to table with the government very shortly. I think the honorable member will be well aware that we've announced an environmental assessment review process and the Manitoba purchase agreement will be a part of our environmental assessment review. As to the issue of why outofprovince purchase as a part of the options that Ontario Hydro will want to present, I think Ontario Hydro is looking at a diversity of options and I think that there will undoubtedly be other proposals that hydro brings forward in its plans. As far as Ontario jobs, there are in fact some very positive spin-offs, not only in terms of reliability of electricity, but in terms of economic opportunities for Northern Ontario through this possible purchase. >> New question, the member for Hamilton Center. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of the Environment. Mr. Minister, the development of Hamilton's waterfront is of great interest, excitement, and concern to all Hamiltonians. As the minister knows, our plans are wide ranging and diverse, and I was pleased to note his involvement in CHCH TV's recent program dealing with the waterfront. It is important to note that we recognize that environmental cleanup and restoration of our harbor is critical to development of the waterfront. My question is in this regard, could the minister tell me when he will be in a position to arrange a meeting with the city of Hamilton on the cleanup activities proposed for the lax lands? >> Minister, >> thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the member uh would know that uh the land was expropriated in in 1984 by the city of Hamilton for the purposes of recreational purposes and then in 1986 there was an undertaking and a uh actual processing of taking uh some contaminated soil away for appropriate disposal. It was discovered subsequently that there were some I think 13,000 tons is the amount of waste that still has to be taken away to make it usable. The city I understand has now put forward a formal proposal. I know the mayor Bob Mororrow is very enthusiastic about this and is eager to proceed with it. off offers a lot of opportunity for Hamilton and certainly I expect that I think next week we should be in a position to have the uh Hamilton District Office of the Ministry of the Environment meeting with the city of Hamilton to uh look at the details of that proposal and to come forward with a funding formula. I have already given a commitment uh in 1986 to participate on the part of the provincial government by providing funds from our environmental security fund to assist in this regard. That offer stands and I'm uh very pleased to know that in the very near future there will be a meeting between our officials to work out the details. >> Supplementary. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Minister. I'm looking forward to the outcome of that uh meeting in respect to the environmental cleanup of the harbor. Uh could the minister indicate the potential impact of the MISA regulations affecting the iron and steel sector? What is the status of the implementation of such regulations? >> Minister, >> well, it will have an impact. The first part is dealing with some remedial work. The second part was some preventive work and as of uh November 1st of this year, uh the MISA monitoring regulation went in for some seven iron and steel plants in the province of Ontario, including the ones that are located in the city of Hamilton. Uh final discharges to waterways will be monitored daily for four different substances. Three times a week for 12 contaminants and weekly for 8 to 12 substances. Monthly and quarterly monitoring for a very few large group of contaminants that sums 86 to 149 contaminants will also take place. There'll be monthly biological monitoring that will be required involving toxicity tests on mil effluence using rainbow trout and water fleas. And resulting from this, Mr. Speaker, with the results in hand, there will be formulated a very tough uh program of abatement, which is the second portion of the regulation, which will have the effect, the preventive effect of bringing further reductions in the contaminants that will be going into the waterway with in fact the uh >> Thank you. >> final goal being the virtual elimination of persistent toxic substances going into Hamilton Harbor. >> New question, the member for Al. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question from the Minister of Municipal Affairs regarding the $400,000 Niagara regional review report which was completed by Professor Harry Kiten of Trent University and to which the minister has requested reactions since the report proposes to abolish single lot severances of good agricultural land. a recommendation which d is directly contrary to the opportunistic suggestion of his colleague the minister of agriculture and food in a speech in the agra federation of agriculture in October 31st that restrictions on urban development of farmland in the agra region be eased the minister clarify which he or the minister of agriculture and food as speaks for government policy in this matter right on >> well Mr. Speaker, I I'm fairly certain that my honorable friend is well aware of the fact that Harry Kitchen's report is Harry Kitchen's report. It's not the government report. And when I went uh when I went down to Niagara to uh to officially uh u make the report public, I made that very clear to the people down there, including all of the municipal officials. And I must say to my honest my honorable friend that uh there was some strong difference of opinion. supplementary. >> Uh could uh the minister of uh of environment wonders why you left time for a supplementary? Uh could the minister indicate uh how long he intends to place the period, how long he intends to leave time for reaction and when he as the minister responsible will in fact be stating government policy with regard to land severances of good agricultural land in the Niagara region. >> Minister, >> um Mr. Speaker, we indicated last week that uh we wanted uh reaction by May the 31st of 1990 and that depending upon how uh how widespread the reactions were or how um how closely the reactions were would determine how long it would take me to give government reaction. >> And that completes the allotted time for all questions and responses.