Question Period Rewind - April 11 1990

Welcome to Question Period Rewind. I'm Donna Skellyy, the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. The year is 1990. It might chug your memory because it's when Nelson Mandela was released after 27 years in prison. On the radio, you were probably listening to Nothing Compares to You by Chenade O' Connor. Now, let's take a listen to what the House was talking about. Oral questions. The leader of the opposition. support of my colleagues. >> In the absence of the minister of health and the premier, I have to stand on my two questions. >> They know the third party. >> Well done, >> Mr. Speaker. This may be somewhat unparliamentary, but ditto. >> We shall resume our normal rotation questions. >> The member for Susi. >> Yes. In the absence of the premier, I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. >> Here's the premier. Let the leader go. >> Can I stand this down and will we revert the leader's question? >> We revert to what we were supposed to do a little while ago, leader of the opposition. >> Back to 60. Speaker, >> Mr. Speaker, uh my question is to this the this morning is to the minister of health. The uh minister will no doubt be aware that the international joint commission uh has produced a uh devastating report on the degree of pollution in the Great Lakes and for the very first time the commission has stated uh clearly and categorically Mr. speaker on page 15 that the commission must conclude I'm quoting from the commission report the commission says we must conclude that there is a threat to the health of our children emanating from our exposure to persistent toxic substances even at very low ambient levels. Mr. Speaker, the commission is clearly stating what many others have said for a long time, but what is now said officially by the International Joint Commission, saying clearly that that the extent of the pollution of the Great Lakes is such that the health of our children is threatened. I want to ask this minister when is she going to join the fight for the establishment of clear standards for drinking water in this province as a health issue? as an issue that it relates to the health of us and of our children and of our grandchildren. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would say to the leader of the opposition, as someone who is particularly concerned as I am with the the health status of the people of the province of Ontario, the opportunities for prevention of our children that I will undertake to uh speak with the federal minister of health and welfare when I next meet with him as the establishment of standards are fed a federal responsibility. >> Oh, then why is your >> Mr. Speaker, the minister knows full the minister knows full well the minister knows full well that the health of the children of this province is her responsibility and is the responsibility of the government of this province. And I specifically want to ask this minister when we know that there are over 300 companies that are directly discharging into the Great Lakes system and when we now have an official report showing that on the basis of studies in in in Michigan on the basis of studies around this province that there in fact is a problem with respect to what is happening. I want to ask the minister again. You have the international joint commission which is an official body established to monitor the uh the uh treaty between Canada and the United States and to which the province of Ontario it's very much a party to everything that's gone on with respect to the joint commission. I want to ask the minister when is she going to take her responsibilities as the minister of health to ensure that the health of our children in fact is protected rather than constantly being being threatened by the pollution of our environment. >> Minister, >> thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to say to the uh leader of the opposition that in fact along with my colleague the minister of the environment we are uh working with the federal government wherever possible to ensure that they establish the kinds of appropriate standards. Uh they have that responsibility uh for all of Canada and I would say to the leader of the opposition that I'm the first one to acknowledge that health is far more than simply the treatment of illness. that there are many opportunities for prevention of illness and that we work together with the federal uh minister and if he can make representations as well to ensure that they accept their responsibility to establish a standard in Canada which is appropriate. >> Last supplementary >> Mr. Speaker, the province of Ontario has a responsibility to ensure the health and safety of its children. That is a fundamental responsibility that all of us have in this legislature. We know that the Misa program is a joke. It's not working. We know that zero discharge. We know that zero discharge, which is the objective of this report, is not being met in Ontario. We know that there's direct pollution into Lake Ontario that's taking place right under the nose of the Minister of the Environment. And now we have a statement, Mr. Speaker. We have a clear statement from uh from the uh from this document which says that the dangers posed to the ecosystem including humans by the continuing use and release of persistent toxic contaminants are severe. This is the strongest statement ever that has ever come out of the international joint commission that's ever come out of any government report with respect to the pollution of the Great Lakes. This is the strongest possible condemnation of inactivity on the part of governments we've ever seen in this province. And I want to ask the minister when is she going to take her responsibilities to protect the health of our children seriously. >> Minister, >> thank you. >> Mr. Speaker, I would say to the leader of the opposition that there has not been a minister of the environment in the province of Ontario that has the kind of reputation that our minister has, that has brought in the kind of programs that we brought in in Ontario. And I would say to him that everybody else would do what we're doing. We want everyone to be doing the kinds of things that we're doing here in Ontario and that we will redouble our efforts to work with our federal colleagues. Wouldn't you be happy if our neighbors national proud of the achievements of this minister of the environment and the reputation that he has to do what he can do here in the province of Ontario. >> A question for your rep your >> Mr. Speaker, a question to the premier. I want to ask the premier why it would be when uh uh his bill on insurance is opposed by so many so many groups including representatives of the disabled uh including representatives of the of the police, representatives of uh literally uh uh hundreds of groups around the province have indicated their strong opposition to what the government is doing. I wonder why the government is persisting in its demand that debate on this critical issue be shut down. Why are you doing that? >> I think uh the minister can tell you what's gone on and why how this debate is progressing. He'd be very happy to tell you that. >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I will have to admit that I was uh momentarily distracted by my friend from Sarnia as we were talking about his next potential question. And might I have a brief repetition for my uh for my benefit of the question? >> Repetition. >> Same question again. >> Mr. Speaker, uh for the benefit of the minister, I'd like to simply ask him this simple question. You have representatives of the disabled. You have representatives of of police associations around the province. You have literally hundreds of groups around Ontario which are very strongly opposed to what you are doing to their rights and what you are doing to the whole system of insurance in this province. The question that I had for the premier who refused to answer was a simple one. Why in the face of that kind of opposition would you be persisting in your demand that debate on this matter be shut down? >> Minister. >> Uh Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question, I thank the honorable gentleman for the repetition and editorial that he connected to the repetition of the question. Let me say this about the people in the province of Ontario, Mr. Speaker, that they have required the province of Ontario to move very quickly and with uh resolve to deal with the issue of price with respect to auto insurance. And in fact, that is what we have done in the context of what our task has been, Mr. speaker, which is to ensure that the people who require auto insurance, which is every driver in this province and in fact every person who rides in an automobile and in fact anybody who is involved in any kind of an action associated with an automobile that we are to ensure that there is the ability to buy the product that in fact it is affordable and that it in fact provides the relief which people need quickly so that they can get back into the workplace or back into the home environment. So what we have done is put balance to the issue of auto insurance in this province. And Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of a people in Ontario, we have put forward an entire package, not just a bit of this and a bit of that. We haven't just criticized. We have put together the first paragraph, the second paragraph, the third, the fourth, and so on until we came to the conclusions. And our overall package, Mr. speaker will be criticized by individuals on very minute details from their point of view >> and there are significant concerns about our threshold. I acknowledge that. But Mr. Speaker, when we as government must address this, we must assert an entire policy. And we have asserted that the policy which we have brought forward will address the needs of affordability, availability, and the ability of people to receive not only adequate compensation, but more than adequate compensation to allow them to get over the dislocations of auto accidents. That's what this entire policy does. And all of your nattering, Mr. speaker to the members of the people opposite will not deter us from addressing the key issue of affordability and the balance of cost with benefits and that is what this program does. That's why we want to implement Bill 68 and the Ontario Motortos Protection Plan for the benefit of the people. >> Mr. Speaker, >> I didn't hear an answer to my question. Mr. Speaker, your the the premier of this province the premier of this province told the people in 1987 that he had a plan to lower rates. Since that time since that time rates have gone up, rates have gone up nearly 20%. Mr. Speaker, nearly 20%. You said you were going to freeze the rates. They went up 20%. Imagine what's going to happen when you unfreeze them. Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister again is this. Why? When you have so much opposition to a plan, which is clearly a plan designed by and for the insurance companies of Ontario, there's never been a plan written as closely by the insurance companies of Ontario. Why would you continue with your with your Maloney like approach, which is to say it's either my way or the by way, and if you don't go along with it, we're going to shut down debate. Why would you do that? Why would you be shutting down debate on this? >> Uh, Mr. Speaker, >> how much should the rates go up in? >> Honorable gentleman's uh >> suggestion, Mr. Speaker, that we are shutting off debate. >> Let's listen to what type of uh statistics there are with respect to debate. >> You look at the amount of debate that has occurred. There is no debate, a filibuster with respect to the activities of the member from Well and Thoral. There is no opportunity for an exchange of views or ideas with respect to what he has been saying. Mr. Speaker, this particular process that we're going through has long traditions about allowing a member to stand in his or her place and address the concerns from their constituents point of view without being taken hostage by a member from the opposition minority party that there can be a real exchange of desires of expression of the benefits and Mr. Speaker, there are no no limit to the number of people who wish to beric about the >> order. >> Order, please. >> Order. >> Order, please. >> One question at a time. Order, please. supplementary. Mr. >> Speaker, the the the >> I had not been allowed to answer the question. May I answer the question, please? >> No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot I in in fairness, I was I was shouted down by the opposition. I must I must ask >> owner, please. The member for Nickel Belt will be pay more attention to the parliamentary language, please. >> Order, please. >> It's your time. >> Supplementary. You minister will get a chance to answer then. supplementary. >> So, Mr. Speaker, >> this >> Mr. Speaker, the fact remains that this government has brought in legislation which is even even more in keeping with what the insurance companies wanted than what the insurance companies originally proposed. You gave them even more than they asked for. That's that's how that's the kind of balance that this government has established. They gave them they gave them more than what the insurance companies were originally asking for. The insurance companies have got more money out of this government than out of any government previously in Ontario and out of any other government in Canada. There's never been a corporate bum deal like this ever made by a government of Ontario. Mr. Speaker, never. I want to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, given that fact and given the amount of opposition from from people with disabilities, from from groups all across this province, I want to ask the minister, why are you persisting with a closure motion? Why are you persisting in insisting on a closure motion when you in fact know that what you're doing is shutting down debate and simply acting directly on behalf of the insurance companies of Ontario? >> Uh, Mr. Speaker. Um, >> he doesn't even believe that. >> Order, please. >> I was I was prevented by the New Democrats from answering the last question, Mr. Speaker. I sus I suspect that I'll be prevented again by those people from expressing my point of view, as is their way these days. >> But let me say something about lower rates. There, in fact, have been lower rates in this province because of the freeze that was put in by my pre predecessor. There, in fact, have been small increases over the last few years. And, Mr. Speaker, everything that has been purchased in this province like uh a number of companies virtually have gone up and there has to be increases in cost. >> We know unlike the people from the New Democratic Party, that you can't get something for nothing. That's what they propose. They want people to believe that you can get something for nothing. It has to be tame. Let me tell you, Mr. speaker that the reason that we're bringing this particular piece of legislation forward is it is a complete package that it does provide a balance of compensation at affordable rates, Mr. Speaker, and that is critical to so many people who drive automobiles in this province. They barrack, Mr. Speaker, about how they're standing up to protect the young people and the senior people and all others. But I'll tell you, Mr. Speaker, they don't even come close because they are allowing themselves to Order, please. >> Order, please. >> Minister may proceed. >> Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate, Mr. speaker that for the first time our no fault benefit schedule has been expanded to include more benefits but that there are costs associated with that but the balance that comes from those extended no fault benefits Mr. Speaker will include the fact that people will not have to go to court to seek the redress that they would formally have had to have gone to to recover and the one benefit Mr. speaker is that they can do it in a formal structure which allows them if they wish to not have to in uh get the costs associated with expensive court proceedings and outside of the adversarial association of court work which in fact has been a detraction for those people who have had to make Don't talk about running. >> Order, please. >> Order. >> Just wait. >> Order, please. The speaker is trying to get the members to respect the standing orders for those asking questions and for those answering questions. Leader of the third party. Is that a news tragedy? >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's awfully quiet in here at the moment, but I uh >> I do in fact have a question for the premier, and it's on a matter of uh very uh critical concern. I know that the premier has read press reports with respect to certain allegations relating to uh the St. Joseph's facility in Alfred. The premier has indicated his concern about those allegations and about some of the problems surrounding that particular uh home and the operations of same uh some three decades ago. I wonder if the premier has had any further opportunity to review the circumstances surrounding uh some of the conditions that apparently existed at that time and would he share with this house what his intentions are in connection with looking further and in more detail into the allegations surrounding the St. Joseph's uh situation. Minister, Premier >> Speaker, with your permission, I invite the Minister of Community and Social Services who has been extensively involved with this to to bring you up to date on everything that the government knows at this point in time. >> Minister, >> thank you very much. Uh, Mr. Speaker, uh, this morning together with my colleagues, the Minister of Health and the Minister of Correctional Services, we met with uh, Mr. McCann to discuss this issue in some detail uh, with him. And there were two major uh areas that we explored with him. And if I might uh bring you and the house up to date on those discussions. Uh in the uh first instance uh we reviewed what the needs were uh of those individuals who were coming forward uh and uh telling uh their stories with respect to uh uh what had happened to them while they were at the institution. uh we are moving uh in to provide supports uh in terms of working with the initially with the uh telephone line that the OP have already in place to bring in support so that people can be uh provided with whatever counseling is required. Uh we are talking with the different agencies with whom we work around these issues to ensure that that support will be there. Uh Mr. McCann had a series of other uh requests that he made of the uh the three of us in terms of of supports for uh him and for others uh who have come forward and we have agreed to uh to move ahead uh with those. I think that we made very clear to him uh that we want to ensure that whatever help is required uh will be provided and as soon as possible. In addition, I can inform the leader of the third party uh that we will be increasing the uh uh OP uh investigation uh of this particular situation uh so that we can get to the to the bottom of it as as quickly as possible. Uh the second uh key point which Mr. McCann raised was the issue of of a public inquiry. uh we discussed that with him and on behalf of uh my two colleagues uh I said that we would uh take back uh and report to cabinet to the premier and cabinet uh specifically uh on that issue. Uh by no means do we rule out the possibility of an inquiry uh we will be uh meeting with our cabinet colleagues and uh uh making that decision at a later date. supplementary. >> The minister is aware that in this particular uh situation there are potentially a hundred cases of abuse that are involved, perhaps more. I don't know how many the minister may have um brought to his knowledge at the present time, but certainly the matter is a very serious one and involves not only providing and I applaud the minister for this. I know that we do that all too infrequently on this side of the house, but to provide immediate assistance to those who need it now, who are potentially wearing the scars of what happened some years ago, I think is uh is a a very appropriate and proper move on the part of the government. I think as well, sir, however, there is a second step to this entire matter which is the focus of my question, Mr. speaker and that is what does the government intend to do with respect to looking into this entire area of concern and making sure that it does not repeat itself ever again in this province. My question to you Mr. Minister is this. Since you and two of your colleagues met with one of the former residents of St. Joseph's who shared with you uh the information that he had along with his personal observations. Did you in fact make a re or will you be making a recommendation as a result of your discussions with your colleagues? Will you be making a recommendation that the province of Ontario undertake a full and thorough inquiry as I might add was done in the case of the province of Newfoundland under somewhat similar circumstances so that we can look into this matter as it should be looked into. >> Minister, >> thank you very much uh Mr. Speaker. uh certainly in uh in exploring this issue with uh Mr. McCann uh he drew to our attention uh information that uh that he had uh and I think everyone uh shares in the desire to ensure uh that we know what has happened uh and that this cannot be allowed to to happen again. Uh one of the things very specifically that uh uh the three ministers involved in the meeting uh took uh from it was that we have to keep looking at our procedures and ensuring that they are as effective and as upto-date as possible with respect to the specific request for an inquiry. Uh as you know a number of uh of our colleagues have been in involved in different parts of this uh uh particular question. Uh I think that at this point uh I would certainly not rule out the possibility of an inquiry but I think it is important that I and my colleagues report back to the premier in cabinet and at that point we will uh take a decision. I would want to underline that I share completely uh the leader of the opposition's view that it is terribly important that we know uh uh what has happened uh and equally important that we ensure that those people who were affected uh uh by what happened receive the necessary support and help that is required. >> Last supplementary >> I want to by way of preamble to my question simply say to the uh to the minister that our party very firmly supports the need for an inquiry into this matter. We believe that if there were wrongdoings that they should be thoroughly investigated that that is the proper and the correct uh role and responsibility of government in connection with matters of this kind. Can we be assured Mr. minister that you will use your good offices to make every persuasive argument possible with your colleagues in cabinet that an inquiry is absolutely essential and critical in this particular matter and it's the only route for the government to go under the circumstances. >> Minister, >> thank you very much uh Mr. Speaker. I can certainly assure the leader of the opposition that in our discussions with our colleagues uh that we will review our uh discussion with Mr. can uh and uh ensure that the right and appropriate decision is made uh so that we know what has happened and that we know that this will not happen again. >> New question >> uh to the premier again uh Mr. Speaker uh in response to a question with respect to the St. Joseph's matter. The premier said and I quote, "I look at that and it just makes me weep and my heart goes out to them. I mean, think about it. Think about it in terms of your own kids. It's just awful. And obviously, we're going to help. And I agree with the fact that help is needed. And I think that those are laudable sentiments. But I want to bring to the premier's attention the fact that uh just a matter of days ago, I brought to the attention of this house children who are in need today, not 20 or 30 years ago, as serious and as critical as that situation might be. Let me if I might with the indulgence of the chair just read a couple of these cases uh before the house into the record. A male child age two sexually molested by father parent separated and the child displays hysterical behavior. These are taken directly from a report that was provided to your minister Mr. Premier. Female age three physically abused by a 19-year-old living in the household. male age three sexually assaulted by a male babysitter and witnessed to sexual abuse by sis of the sister by the same individual. I have many more cases here. I can understand, Mr. Premier, your concern about what happened in St. Joseph's in Alfred back some years ago. But there are some 10,000 children on a waiting list that runs anywhere from six 6 months to 2 years before these children who are with us today can receive the kind of services that are required. What is your government prepared to do about it? Sir, >> premier, >> I think the minister can tell my honorable friend of the things we're doing. >> Minister, >> thank you very much. Uh, Mr. Speaker, uh again uh we would share completely the concerns uh uh of the leader of the third party with respect to anyone who is waiting for uh uh needed care and I don't for any minute say that we are uh as yet satisfied with all that we've been able to do to ensure uh that that care can be provided. I think it needs to be made uh very clear however to uh my honorable friend that over the last three or four years we have made a significant commitment uh to the whole children's services sector not only in terms of children's uh mental health but also in terms of uh child welfare and the care of young offenders and I would remind the honorable member uh that on Friday last uh both the minister of health and I uh announced that we were increasing uh the amount of funds that would be going to all of those uh transfer payment agencies uh that come under our jurisdiction uh so that they will be receiving a 5.5% increase in their budgets. Uh I think that this is in uh part a reflection of our concern about the needs that they have and I also indicated at that time uh that we were going to continue to look at the issues which I had outlined to the honorable member uh earlier uh in answer to other questions. We view this as a most serious issue and we are committed to resolving it. >> Supplementary serious issue. >> Well, Mr. Minister, and I want to say to you and I want to put this in the appropriate context. There were there were measures taken by your government that increased the costs of the operations that provide these types of services. You provided a 4.5% increase in their baseline budget. That in and by itself is not an inappropriate amount. although slightly below the rate of inflation. However, what you did, sir, and I pointed this out to you previously and I stand by the comments that I made at that time is that you introduced the employer health levy and in addition to that pay equity which is impacting on these particular agencies. In one instance, an agency which operates in your own home writing and has seven branches is going to have a cost increase of a million dollars as a result not of the of the government's increase. And when that is meshed with the with the total global budget, but as a result of the additional costs that decisions by your government are imposing on top of on top of the cost of the of the operation, without the employer health levy and without the uh uh the um pay equity introduction, I asked the the I asked the minister, is your government satisfied that these particular operations can maintain ain the current level of service let alone look after the waiting list recognizing that you have increased their cost of operation. >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, uh I I would simply say again that uh one of the reasons specifically that we have changed our funding for this year and moved to uh 5 a 12% was after sitting down and talking with the Ontario Association of Children's Mental Health Centers and other agencies active in the child's uh services area, we recognized that there were greater demands and made that change. At the same time, we are actively involved with them in looking specifically at the question of of waiting lists and how we can bring that down. at the question of the salaries of frontline workers and at the comparability between the professional staff in many of those agencies and how they relate to the educational and health sectors. And we're doing this now. We have said very clearly that it is critical that we recognize the problems that they are facing. And I think it is very important to underline that when you look at the total amount of funding that we've put into this sector which has grown uh as I mentioned the other day by some 18 point $6 million above inflation that there is a real commitment on our part to help those organizations and we will continue to work closely with them and that is the commitment that we've made and we are going forward and I think as a good sign of our uh uh intent uh is the change that we made last week in terms of their base budgets. >> Last supplementary >> way that we can avoid a St. Joseph's situation from occurring 10 or 20 or 30 years into the future is to do something to help those children today. >> That's right. >> That's the only way that that problem can be dealt with. Mr. Minister, your government, as a result of decisions made by your cabinet colleagues, has increased the cost dramatically for the operation of these agencies. They are losing staff. They are cutting back staff. They are shutting down operations. One of which was, I might add, an operation in your writing in the New Market area where that had to be closed as a result of underfunding. It's not a question simply of increasing the budget. It's a question of looking seriously at what the impact of your programs are on the operating costs of these particular agencies. >> Are you prepared to maintain the current level of service and remove the waiting list of some 10,000 children? specific commitment to enhance services in the children's services sector. We have through the advisory committee that has been set up uh to look at the broad area to see how we can do that. We have increased funding in this area. We have done all of that and we did what we did last Friday in the face of a complete and utter withdrawal by your federal cousins in terms of any kind of funding under the Canada Assistance Plan for these programs. And I think that it is terribly important to recognize that we have always said that there are issues within that sector that we're trying to address and it's time that the federal government came back to the table. We're moving ahead. We're providing more funding and we're going to continue to work directly with those agencies to ensure that the kinds of things that you mentioned will not happen. That's a commitment proven by past experience and it's a commitment that will continue from this moment on. >> New question. >> Order, please. >> Too bad they didn't believe you. >> Order, please. New question. The member for Riverdale. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of >> in the absence of the attorney general, I must direct this question to the premier. >> The unhappy incidents that appear to have happened at St. Joseph's training school for boys in fact, Mr. Speaker, point out a failure of this government. As long as we have institutions, we will have the breeding grounds for abuse against people who are vulnerable. And there is no question about that. Mr. Speaker, my question to the premier is why has his government not moved on any of the teen reports and recommendations to implement advocacy services for vulnerable people in this province. Right, Premier? >> None of them. Speaker, I I I understand uh the temptation to blame the government for every problem society even though the things that uh uh were not in its particular time. I understand that easy temptation and uh I know if my old my friend thinks about it, he he will probably take another view on this matter and uh uh I can tell my honorable friend that that matter is uh is under review and there are things that have been done in that area. Um um but I can tell my friend there's broad ramifications for that and um I can't tell you at this point uh when that will be coming forth forthcoming. >> Supplementary. >> Perhaps Mr. Speaker, I should have an opportunity to elucidate the temptation of the member for Riverdale. Uh basically what this government has had before it is the Fram report, the Graham report, the O'Sullivan report, the Manson report, the Hilda Danielson inquest, and the Starkman work which of course did not result in a report because I understand Mr. Starkman uh left u before completing a report and every one of those reports, Mr. speaker said that people in institutional settings will be subject to physical, emotional, and sexual abuse, including having their faces rubbed in feces and urine if there are no independent advocates to protect them. >> That's right. >> What on earth, Mr. Speaker, is the government waiting for? So, more allegations because they're happening every minute. Premier Mr. >> Speaker, I I note a number of initiatives been undertaken as my honorable friend knows that there's been very substantial increases in the social services budget. There's a number of problems that have been trying to arrest and I appreciate the uh uh the views of my honorable friend on this particular matter, but I can say it's something that is under review. >> Your question, >> Mr. Speaker, I have a I have a question of the Minister of Health. Yesterday, uh, Minister, I raised during, uh, member statements the case that I'm sure you're aware of of Elizabeth Lou and the need to have more funding for more blood testing to save Elizabeth's life. The community has raised over $140,000. The costs to date are just under $280,000. In the scrum after question period yesterday, you were quoted as saying that you would like to help Elizabeth, but that you can't do anything about it because your hands are tied and OHIP system does not permit you to fund this type of blood testing. What are you going to You've had 24 hours to reconsider that statement. Are you now prepared to do something to help Elizabeth Lou? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, for the information of the member opposite, the Ontario Ministry of Health funds some 36% of the cost of a national registry uh which links not only Ontario but all of the provinces in this country as people seek uh matches for unrelated uh donors for such uh services as of transplant, bone marrow transplant and blood products. Uh we hope to see this expanded so we'll link internationally. uh and I would say to him that we in fact I think have shown great leadership in Ontario in uh accepting our responsibility and funding this very important registry which hopefully will help with the identification of people uh to provide this important uh service >> supplementary. >> Mr. Speaker, that information I'm sure is all very important but that's not the issue at stake here. The issue at stake here as the minister knows is that this testing has to be done in the United States by the American Red Cross and it has to be done within 24 hours and because of the volume and the number of people that have to be tested and the timeline that they have to do the testing and these people are going into an international registry. This isn't lost money. I note that you were quoted yesterday also as saying my heart goes out to the family. You're always concerned when we bring issues here on a very personal level sometimes asked by the family as I was asked to do in this case. I'm asking you on behalf of the Ontario government to do as much for Elizabeth Lou as the community is doing. Will you match them dollar for dollar and do something and don't give us your baffle gab while people are dying out there about what you're doing about something has nothing to do with this specific case. >> Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, I I think that the outburst from the member opposite is completely inappropriate. He knows he knows that in fact we want to do everything that we can in Ontario to make sure that people have access to the services that they need. I can tell him that there are some services which are not funded by the Ministry of Health. There are many things that we would like to do for everyone. We don't pay for tests for people who are well in these kinds of testing programs. We're always reviewing to see how the policies can be reviewed on a universal basis. He knows as well that there are many many new technologies and many new procedures which are in fact uh allowing people to to have the kinds of services that were never available before. >> And I would say to him and to the families of of all of those who are looking for bone marrow transplants that we know what a difficult time it is for them and that we all wish them well. You have a question. The member for Simco Center. >> Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. >> Um, with the advent of uh Europe 1992 and the opening up of uh Eastern Europe, uh there would appear to be uh many challenges or opportunities for the business community here in this province. uh and in the past number of uh years there's been considerable interest of European countries and investment in our province. As a matter of fact, Volkswagen has uh brought in a an innovative and highly automated uh automotive parts plant into my own writing and in Barry. But I would like to ask the minister, could he advise us with these opportunities there? Uh what is the province of Ontario going to be able to do to take advantage of what's opening up? >> Minister, >> Mr. Speaker, I'm I'm sure members will know that in uh 1992, Europe will become the largest economic block in the world with 320 million inhabitants uh possibly expanding even larger with the advent of Eastern Europe and other company other countries that are trying to gain entry into that. We are very aware of that and have been working very hard. We've uh had four missions to Europe under our urinex program which is new exporters to Europe. Uh we've published a handbook which uh outlines business opportunities in Europe 1992. Uh we have uh constantly received delegations that have come into Ontario and with all of these things we have been making companies aware of the opportunities that are there so that we can capitalize on this new and exciting market here. >> Supplementary Mr. Speaker be uh before the legislature resumed I had the opportunity of going over a number of uh business magazines and uh newspapers and I was very impressed with what seems to be done to in the United States and in Japan gearing up to uh uh enter and to compete in the same markets that I've earlier identified. And uh I appreciate that the minister is concerned but uh I would submit that the minister cannot do anything unless he has the support and the awareness of the industries of this province, the United States, various states, other countries in the Pacific sector are gearing themselves into this market. Uh could we have some reassurance from the minister as to the leadership which we can show to our own industries and make them aware of these opportunities? Minister >> a series of dinners >> speaker uh uh to answer that question we have entered into a special relationship with the so-called fore motors of Europe these are the areas in Europe that are very similar to Ontario and the fact that they are the manufacturing and economic centers of their respective jurisdictions we have a relationship with Ron Alp which is centered in Leon we have one in Boden Vvertonberg which is centered in Stuttgart we have one in uh Lombardi which is centered in Milan and we will be entering into one fairly soon with Catalonia which is centered in Barcelona. Uh these are areas in Europe where we can in fact gain access to those particular markets. I'm sure all members will want to know that the premier will be hosting a summit of the leaders of the four motors in Ontario in June and my ministry is working very closely to coordinate the business aspects of those meetings. >> New question. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the premier with regards to the Tomogamy Wilderness. The this the premier's government has disregarded both uh Aboriginal land claims and environmental concerns in this area. And his government is now threatening to destroy one of the province's finest economical economic and ecological assets, the Pine Wilderness here in Ontario. This government has refused to recognize the inherent sovereign rights of the Teamagami Ashnabi First Nation over this region of the province. Why at this time will the government not order a full environmental assessment of the interim timberment management plans for both the Tomogamy and Latchford crown management units? You premier >> I don't want to be under I don't want to be unkind to my friend opposite. It usually or at least sometimes is relatively moderate and occasionally even accurate. But you are wrong in a number of your assertions. You've said that we have ignored the Indian claims. This matter if you want to hear me I'd be delighted to explain it to you has been in the courts for some 12 years. The government's position has been supported at all turns. My honorable friend knows that and would want not want to give a false impression in what he says. He and he he would want to be accurate. He says that we've inv ignored the environmentalist. There have been ongoing discussions. There have been ongoing uh dialogue with the environmental groups. Uh uh this has gone through a whole variety of of uh discussions. Uh and we are not oblivious to their concerns at all. Just as my friend is not oblivious, I am sure to some of the concerns of people in Northern Ontario, he is not oblivious to the concerns of environmentalists either in this unique stand of timber. Now, I can tell my honorable friend that he probably knows it. There is a class environmental assessment going on with respect to our forestry practice across the uh the uh north. One of the most esteemed members of his of his group is one of the commissioners. Now, if you don't have faith in Eli, how can we uh how can we persuade you that we are doing the right thing? You know him far better than we do. You lived with him. And don't you have faith in his dise here. >> I think it's I think it is time for an election. >> Unfortunately, that environmental assessment will take a number of years before its completion. And in the interim, this government has uh tabled a uh interim timber management plan which reveals that some 88.2% of the total planned area of the harvest is to be clearcut that even in areas not to be clearcut many of the trees too many of the trees are being cut to ensure adequate regeneration. only some 18.5% of the area to be harvested in fact will be replanted and the forest resource inventory on which the longrange wood supply projections are made is today 23 years old. Given these clear inadequacies, shouldn't the premier insist that this area be subject to a full environmental assessment on a specific case basis to ensure that that resource is protected for the long run? Speaker, no one is talking about clearcutting olive tomogamy. My honorable friend is aware it's a very very large area. There is a specific group of sensitive trees of large of of large pine and we have said and I will say to you to my honorable friend, there will be no clear cutting of those old pine stands. That is just a fact of life. Now, I I know you understand that being a northerner, being sensitive, being an economist, and I'm sure my honorable friend would want to stand up and tell the facts on this case. He can't, being a member of parliament, being a rational person, avoid the luxury of of inaccuracies or just straight emotionalism when the facts are very there there and clear in front of you. Now he will know that the honorable uh the minister is reviewing uh the timber licenses independent reviews by a number of respected people Mr. Buck and others who are looking at the situation. It is under review. But I want to tell my honorable friend that he doesn't have to worry. He can sleep well tonight because there will be no clear cutting of those old pine stands. it anything that will be done will be enormously sensitively with the cooperation of the band if they are prepared to work with us uh and the Tomogamy Wilderness Society and other people who we've invited to give us their advice and their submission. So my honorable friend I think now that he knows the facts with respect to Tomagi would want to stand up and say that so he isn't accused of just being an extremist or emotional on a subject nor normally he's quite rational. >> Your question the member for Mr. Saga South. >> Mr. Speaker, my question is for the premier and I just want to point out to him that Mr. Ken Yarrow and Mr. Earl Haron from the Federation of Agriculture are in the gallery and very interested in your answer, Mr. Premier, to this question. Last August, you announced that the Greater Toronto area intram landfill sites would be exempt from the Environmental Assessment Act. And since that time, we have asked you and the Minister of the Environment a number of times to reconsider the exemption from the full environmental assessment of these sites. We feel that your government is going to be creating major environmental havoc around this province if that policy goes forward. >> Question. So I'm here to ask you again particularly on behalf of this one uh particular application if you will consider again your government's decision and fulfill your government's so-called commitment to the environment and make all the GTA waste disposal interim sites subject to the full force of the environmental assessment act. >> Premier >> Mr. Speaker, I am sure the minister would be very happy to tell you again what he has told you in the past. >> Minister, >> it's your announcement. >> Mr. Speaker, uh I would be pleased to answer that question on behalf of the premier naturally and uh I would say first of all to the member who I think is aware of this and the member who and I think that the members of the house must be reminded of this. The member who has consistently chastised or at least the party that has consistently chastised this government over the past five years for taking too long to deal with these matters of waste management whose leader putting forward a a point of view that he believed in. uh said uh to me and occasions gone by in all sincerity that he was chastising and saying the government had never approved a landfill site in the province of Ontario since we are in office. Uh that is is not the case at this time. But he was expressing that particular concern about uh the the problems that are created by not dealing with these matters as expeditiously as possible. But what we want to ensure, Mr. speaker is that any site that any site that is uh put forward for consideration by people in the GTA and this was an agreement that was made amongst the chairman of the GTA that this would be uh that any site that would be put forward would be going to an environmental assessment board hearing under the environmental protection act which takes into consideration all of the scientific aspects, all of the technical aspects, all of the environmental aspects of any proposal that comes forward. The board would then render a decision having heard from both sides. One of the sides being eligible for intervenor funding from the government of Ontario to help present their case and this would be on the interim sites. Any long-term sites of course would be subject to the environmental assessment act. >> Thank you. Supplementary. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, it's obvious that the premier doesn't know what's going on. It was the premier that made this announcement. That's why I was asking the premier the question. However, he's chosen to refer it to the minister. Mr. Minister, I want to talk to you about a site which Metro Toronto have nominated. It's an abandoned open pit mine in Memorial and they've nominated this as an intim site. It's a 75 acre mine. It's 600 ft deep. It has 300 ft of water in it. And I would I would like to tell the minister that your minister of natural resources has said that she is concerned about the potential of contaminating groundwater as well as the Crow and Mora rivers. Mr. Speaker, my question is this. Based on the concern of the Minister of Natural Resources in this province who said that to alter or destroy this habitat would require the authority of the federal government. And since the metro are very keen on having this as an interim site, I would ask the minister once more when it's obvious that there are serious environmental concerns in this site, I ask you again to give us your word that this site in Memorial and all intram GTA sites undergo the full environmental assessment. >> Minister, >> well, Mr. >> Didn't they tell you how to pronounce the name Marura? Mr. uh >> please Mr. Chairman in Marura. >> That's right. >> Uh there have been people who have legitimately expressed that member doesn't even concerns about the possibility of having their area used for a landfill site and that's certainly understandable that they would do so. That is why the attorney general that is why the attorney general through the uh act pertaining to this which allows for intervenor funding the intervenor funding initiative that was begun by this government for these purposes that is why that's available to them. >> I am certain that all of the I am certain that uh well I'm sorry but uh you and the government remember who built Darlington and built Pickering and built Bruce without an environmental assessment. So don't lecture me on the environmental assessment act. All of those all of those please. >> Anyway, to go back to your specific question, go back to your specific question. Uh all of these matters will be taken into consideration and I recognize I recognize, Mr. Speaker, that every site that is proposed in the province of Ontario for a landfill site will be opposed by members of the opposition. When I was in the opposition, I opposed all those sites in the in the province of Ontario because that's the role of the opposition. But they're not going to propose any specific site for it because of course then they would have to take the responsibility for that. >> What we have done, Mr. Speaker, is we ensure we ensure an environmental assessment board hearing for those people. We ensure that there will be intervenor funding. We ensure that all environmental considerations will be taken in taken into account before any decision is rendered by the independent environmental assessment board and that's a commitment that I give to the people of this province. >> New question the member for Peterborough. >> Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. Mr. Speaker, the uh the need for quality daycare has grown enormously in recent years and in fact is still growing at a very rapid rate. One of the reasons for that is that uh women form the largest new component to the labor force and as a result they increasingly need quality daycare. Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is simply this. What specific steps are being taken to fulfill this need for quality daycare? >> Minister, >> thank you uh very much, Mr. Speaker. I think that the commitment of this government and indeed the programs that have been brought to bear on the development of child care uh represent a tremendous uh impact on the whole child care sector. As the honorable member uh will know that over the last four to five years, our funding for child care has grown from something in the order of $89 million uh to close to $350 uh million. A significant contribution and increase. At the same time, the number of subsidized spaces, Mr. Speaker, have gone from some 22,000 more than doubled uh to 45,000 subsidized spaces. In addition to that, we have taken other specific steps. Uh for example, the uh in the support to employment program which was brought in last year under the social assistance reforms. We recognized clearly that one of the important ways of helping single uh women, single mothers uh to get back into u uh their jobs that they had had or into jobs that they wish to carry out was to ensure that they had funding for child care. And that initiative uh which began in the late fall is beginning to show real dividends in other areas. We have for example uh placed in child care centers the child the the posters the daycare posters would set out clearly uh what inspections have taken place when and is everything in order as it ought to be. uh we have uh reviewed staff training developing uh new training uh uh needs and and we have done more planning and preparation uh for the development of child care legislation and I would say we've done that Mr. Speaker again in the absence of the federal government they withdrew their child care initiative but that has not prevented us from taking vigorous action and going forward in this area. >> Thank you. Supplementary thank you Mr. speaker and I I'm very grateful to the minister for that informative response and but I wondered if uh he could now through you address his attention to the situation in uh in Peterbr. Mr. Speaker, as you know, my writing is a very diverse one. We have an urban component with very mixed industry and very mixed employment opportunities and there's a rural component and the city of Peter uh Mr. speaker is faced with the task of providing daycare not only for people in its immediate area but for those in the surrounding rural areas where quality daycare is particularly lacking and by the way Mr. Speaker particularly needed and I wondered now Mr. Speaker if the minister would address the case of Peter and its its surrounding area and I wonder if he could be fairly specific and if he can assure me that the present level of quality daycare in Peter Mr. speaker will at least be maintained and will much better hopefully be increased. >> Thank you uh very much Mr. Speaker and I know that the honorable member has been very involved with a number of the organizations in the daycare area in Peterborough and I think that uh there we have seen a real growth uh both within the uh the city as well as in the the rural area. Um, as the honorable member knows, in 1989 9090, uh, approximately 1,08 licensed daycare spaces were available, uh, in the Peterborough area. And of course, in terms of enrollment, it's even greater, uh, because those, uh, uh, represent in effect the actual subsidized spaces. Now, the amount of, uh, funding that we've put into that area uh, last year was approximately $3 million for subsidized uh, spaces. And the honorable member might be interested to know uh uh some of the breakdowns. Uh the direct operating grants, Mr. Speaker, over $425,000 was provided and that for the inst enhancement of staff salaries and benefits uh for uh program startup costs because again we are involved each year in starting up new programs. Uh almost $284,000 was provided for community development, public education initiatives, other startup costs. Uh $191,000 was provided to licensed child care programs for toys, equipment, uh minor renovations, and over $200,000 was provided to the resource center in Peterborough to provide training, education, and support programs for informal caregivers and families. I think, Mr. speaker that those amounts of of dollars, the commitment that we've made indicate that we view this as a critical area and we're going to continue to work with my colleague from Peterborough and others to enhance and develop childare programs throughout the province. completes the time allocated to oral questions.