Queer Histories Panel: An Evening of Resilience, Strength, and Storytelling

Good evening everyone. Welcome to the West Vancouver Memorial Library. My name is Cashelle Theen and I'm the communications coordinator here at the library. Thank you so much for joining us in person and everyone at home. I would like to begin this evening by acknowledging that the West Vancouver Library resides on the traditional ancestral and unseated territory of the Squamish Nation, Lelaywood Nation, and Musquam Nation. We recognize and respect them as nations in this territory as well as their connection to the lands and waters around us since time immemorial. Tonight's program is presented in conjunction with Love in a Dangerous Time, the Canadian Museum for Human Rights traveling exhibition that is currently on display upstairs in our main hall. Uh, this exhibit will be with us until September 15th, so you have lots of time to explore the info panels during your vid. Love in a Dangerous Time explores the history of the LGBT purge, a decadesl long campaign in which thousands of members of the Canadian Armed Forces, the RCMP, and the federal public service were investigated, harassed, and in many cases dismissed because of their sexual orientation and gender identity. And with that, it is my pleasure to welcome tonight's moderator, Chanel Tai. haven't even started yet. You don't know if I'm good. >> Hi friends. I'm Chanel Tai. She her. I'm very happy to be here. Um I do this kind of stuff all the time. I'm a um anti-racism and equity and queer inclusion consultant. Um so that means I get I'm a paid homosexual to be queer and to hang around with queers. and I'm very honored to be here uh with these particular queers. Uh tonight we're talking about queer history. And I think often when we say the word history, we think of archives, we think of the past, we think of something that maybe we weren't there for. Um today we have people who were there for it and continue to make queer history. And so I invite you on this little journey to talk about queer history, to learn about local queer histories and stories. Um, I have it on good authority that these three are talented storytellers, so we might have to stop them from talking. Um, >> so thanks for being here to talk about not only what queer people uh locally have endured, but what we've created, what we've imagined, what we've reimagined, and I'm so happy to hear what you wanted to say. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to these three homies. Um, we're going to start on the end with Miss Chantel Lee. Michelle Halei is a longtime community advocate. She's a performer and activist and a respected elder in queer and drag communities. And for decades, she's used performance, storytelling, mentorship, and community care to create spaces where queer people can gather and heal and be celebrated. Uh her advocacy spans HIV and AIDS, um queer seniors, trans visibility, and disability justice. She's also the past mixedgate princess, empress 52 of Vancouver, Empress 49 and a half of Calgary, which I think is more titles than most of us get in a life or something. >> So, your Majesty, thank you for being here among us. >> And uh we also have Jackie Hayward in the middle. Jackie has spent decades documenting, creating, and living Vancouver's queer history. She's worked in HIV and AIDS uh for nearly 30 years and was the first person hired by the Vancouver Vancouver persons with AIDS coalition. Um she she's also helped found found she founded the positive women's network and theater positive and she's created peer-led healing retreats for people living with HIV and we found out is also an author and a playwright. Um Jackie's part of HIV in my day. It's an oral history project uh which later again we found out became a plague um in my day. Uh and she continues to help preserve and share the stories of queer elders. Thank you Jackie for joining us. >> Thank you. And then last but not least is Glenn Teach. Glenn is a storyteller uh if you can't tell by the hat. Um, and he's a researcher specializing in Vancouver's queer history. Uh, you might have heard of Glenn because he created Vancouver's only gay history tour in 2018. Uh, and he's introduced thousands of people, right? It's a lot of people who come through your tours, >> of course. >> Um, and he talks about a lot of Vancouver's overlooked or kind of hidden queer history, the undocumented history of our past. Um, and Glenn does a cool thing where he uses archives and court records and oral history to um bring awareness to um our histories of queer activism and resistance and community life and community building in the city um all the way to the present. So, it's not just Vancouver's history, kind of Vancouver's current contemporary history, I guess, is what we call it. Uh and famous His tour was ranked by Trip Advisors as among the top 10 experiences in Canada. >> Oh, dang. >> And we have Niagara Falls. >> So, these are our three special guests. Um, shall we jump in? Yes. I have a question for all of you on preserving and losing queer history since that's what you do. You preserve the history so we don't lose them. Um let's start with uh let's start with the challenges. So what are some of the challenges involved in uncovering and documenting queer history that you've run into and what happens if those histories are not preserved? Well, sometimes it's finding people that want to listen and not thinking that that queers have a history that that was back in the old days and it's not interesting and let's move on and that's so I think that's it's not that important. Yeah. >> Okay. I talking with the younger generation we hear I'm so tired of hearing back in the days back in the days we weren't born then but I think the missing component is back in the days create today and what you're experiencing now came from back in the days. So there's that bridge that we need to strengthen between the younger generation, languages and interest with the older generation. I'm saddened to hear that the two of you have that experience of feeling like there's a disinterest because I found something different which is on the tour I often find young people who are desperately hungry uh uh to hear what their history is or what their lineage is uh but often don't know where to go to find it and uh that's heartening and and so I want to offer you that encouragement that there are young people who are who are hungry to know it they understand that there has been some kind of struggle struggle to get where we are, but they don't know what that struggle has entailed. But I will agree with you both that there is a generation gap. Uh and uh that queer youth aren't uh there's not a lot of opportunities for queer youth to be in the same spaces as queer elders. And so there there's a there's a gap. There's a chasm there. Um and I I think it's important that we find ways to try and bridge that gap. >> Yeah. I'm wondering if part of the challenge has this is not on my notes. So, um I'm wondering if part of the challenge is that young people that you two have um encountered think about the back in the day as negative, right? It's like all the difficulties that we've gone through as a people. Do you think that's part of the the challenge for them? >> You want to go first? >> No, because I don't have a good answer. Um I work with a lot of um age range in my movement in the community and what I have found is the sense of community is where it breaks down. Um for the village itself being the last three remaining village across Canada and North America. I find that the younger generation don't have a connection to that being born in a a a what I call the free world where you don't have to fight for anything. It's already there. and trying to understand the importance of keeping a community as it changes and not get rid of a community because you don't understand it. The community has always been the backbone and the driving force for a lot of movements and a lot of changes. And when you look around what's happening now as if a lot of it is being taken away and Canada is not too far behind. So I think the idea of keeping that community a a source of strength instead of fragmented is very very important. And we're having more and more talks between the gaps to try and bridge that. And I think that's what we need is more space like this and more conversation like this and having different demographic in the same space. >> Yeah. And we are lucky today there is quite a swath. I mean you know it's a diverse group. So yeah >> that's that's good news for us in the community building. Jackie do you have something now? Well, you mentioned the In My Day play, which is a verbatim play um that came from the oral history project that um you Vic and SFU took on and I'm skipping ahead. So, the in my day play uh was presented at the Colch. It was also presented at in the Phoenix Theater in Victoria and it was done by UIC students and each student played a person that words were verbatim from the in my day play from the HIV in my day oral history project. So that was pretty phenomenal. I went to that play and I was interviewed in the oral history project and some of my words are in the dialogue of the play as a character named Jackie who was played in Victoria by a young woman from the uh from the um UIC drama department and that was an amazing experience. We met each other and we both hugged and sobbed and laughed and so that was a crossover and I think it was very successful. All these young people played folks from the day with their own words from those folks. So there there's an exception and it was really high reward and it was intergenerational good feels all around. Yeah. Jackie, um I want to come back to something that Shantel said just now, which is linked to what you just said, Jackie. Um this idea that some people may have, and you're you're both kind of spotlighting younger generations, but it could be anybody. Um that we have arrived somewhere, and we don't need to look back anymore. uh is an interesting thing in in the current climate because we see our neighbors to the south losing rights left and right and we know that that is uh I don't want to call myself an older person but let's be honest um I only look this good in old but we know as people who have lived a little that your rights are not static right we can we can fight to get them we can also have them taken away at any moment, especially in marginalized groups like like ours, queer folks. So, it's I think I think you're right. I think it's important to have opportunities like like you offer, Glenn, to um and then you talk about with the play to have these intergenerational conversations and um and interactions because yes, we have rights now, but who knows for how long. It was really an amazing experience to sit in that audience and hear that young woman saying this words from my interview from my experience. It it was just mindblowing. But yeah, but that's a story. Don't guess what that's going to be the next question. Yeah. >> Um because I'm wondering, you know, like there's there is this piece of of course preserving that back in the day this is the struggle. Um these are the losses. These are the the rights that we have won through fighting. There is something important about that. But there's also something important about preserving stories of joy uh in the queer and trans community. And so I'm wondering storytellers if you have stories um you know a moment of joy uh from from our collective career history local care queer history that you'd like to share with our our audiences. As recently as 2015, uh, a shoe box was found near a dumpster in the West End and it had the photos and, um, memorabilia of a man who lived in the West End in the 1950s who was pretty clearly gay because there was some like racy postcards. Uh, and uh, so that shoe box found its way to a local uh, journalist. Uh, uh, you probably know Kevin Dale Mung. >> I read that. Yeah, you read about this and uh it was kind of discovered that he there was a membership card to a private members club called and this is very charming uh the happy time social club and this uh they were able to reconstruct that this must have been a previously unknown queer meeting place in the 1950s and it was right on Davy Street in what would later become the queer village decades before it was anything like a queer village and uh the fact that it was priv like that uh that it was exclusively queer because it was a private members club was really unusual for the time. Uh but it's also this is a place in the ' 50s when it was dangerous to be out when it was a crime and you could go to jail and lose your freedom and and uh it was unsafe to be out. This was a private place. Oh, and do you want to know where it was? It was in the basement of what we now call celebrities. >> So what would later become a gay bar uh down in the windowless basement was this private meeting place. So, a place where gay men could feel safe, they could connect, and they could perhaps uh make connections. And among those photos is a series of photos that show this man, Joseph, together uh consistently over the years uh with another man who was probably his lover. And uh and then there's a little scrap of uh of paper uh like a note that says, "Do you remember I forget what date, but do you remember the date of whatever date uh in my little old apartment?" And it just makes me emotional because this is an example of queer joy that that at a time when it was dangerous, these men found a place. It it seems that Joseph was able to find a measure of happiness at the happy time social club >> in the basement of celebrities where some of us still find some happy time. Um, for me, I think back to the gay games that were in Vancouver, 1990, gay games, and that was still in the height of the AIDS crisis, the the fear and the hiding and the death and the illness. the Gay Games came to town and there were 27 different countries represented and 7,000 athletes for me rounding my numbers. And there was 1,500 cultural um participants in the arts and dance and and theater. And um I performed during those years as a character, a comedy character named Lovey Sizzle. And um Lovey was hired to do a show uh during the Gay Games and it was at the I think it's BC Place. and she wears a hairet and a weird outfit and pointy glasses and and she's u irreverent and sassy and hot as can be. And so Lovey was on the stage in front of 2,000 screaming lesbians much like we had. >> And they weren't screaming to run out of the room, I tell you. And the bit was there was a fabulous woman who's a was a clown and that's she you could do all these juggling and things and lovey. So this gave me a lot of joy. Um and the joy under the tent I'll tell you. And so Lovey takes off her outfit to that tune of Gloria. Gloria. Gloria. And you can't help but move when you hear that song. And the the w the woman's name escapes me, but I'll it'll come to me like things do recently in about 10 minutes. Oh, yes. That was a baloney sandwich. So she took my clothes that I had taken off and she put them on and and clowned with putting them on and underneath I had a little flimsy thing >> and that that was brought me a lot of joy because it was during a dark times, hard times and there we were with 20 with 2,000 screaming lesbians. >> Sounds like it brought them a lot of joy, too. It's good to laugh and to hoot and to Yeah. So, >> do you think we could get a special appearance from Lovey Sizzles and have you done next? >> No, I can always wait. >> Um, mine is bittersweet. And I say that because it was at a time where the AIDS pandemic came out and so many of our friends were falling and a lot of family didn't want to do anything with them. And what brought me joy was watch our community come together, take shifts. If you worked night, you would be there during the day and would take shift to make sure this person is eaten. We had connection with nurses and doctors who would donate medications. Um would raise money for those that want to go home and they didn't have that money. Would put on shows and would raise a lot of money. would auction stuff off to get plane ticket to send them home to be at peace. So that I hold very dear to myself. Um and a lot of people do hold it very dear to watch a community in spite of everything come together and give somebody their last bit of joy. >> I like it. Oh, sorry, Henry. I'd like to add that the lesbians showed up. >> Yeah. Oh, yes. >> I mean, East Side met Westside, so to speak. The lesbians really showed up. When I was hired in 1987 to work at um Persons with AIDS Society, I didn't have one gay male friend. I lived on off Commercial Drive. I was hip deep in in boots and women and oh well not in that order but you know I was busy with commercial drive of life and I was serving my community and so the lesbians showed up and that's what you say the community >> they really came together. Yeah. >> Back then we didn't have all these different labels to identify people. It was the gay community. >> That's right. >> So when I use that reference, it includes everybody under that banner. >> And we had the community come out and out. And I was on night shift, so I would get day shift before going home to sleep to go back and work. I would do a show, scrub out, and then go to work sometime with the brows still on. But the community um brings me a lot of joy when I see stuff like that and remember stuff like that. And we still do it, you know, not to the magnitude as it was before, but our community still come together when needed. That's the one thing I can say about the LGBTQ community. They may not always be there, but they will be there. I don't think everyone realizes. I'm so glad you brought that up, Jackie, because I don't think everyone like people don't understand how siloed the gay and lesbian communities were leading up to the AIDS crisis and how much that changed during the AIDS crisis. And it was because lesbians stepped over the line and showed up and said, "We're we're a part of this, too." and that every step of progress that we have made since then as a community we kind of owe to the le it's because we became a more cohesive strengthened community and that was the the lesbians stepping up and that was us turning crisis into like a really ugly crisis into something beautiful. Yes. >> And you mentioned how people or one of you mentioned see bologn sandwich one of you mentioned how um families wouldn't necessarily accept people home that was rampant >> and that's where the community came together and so many men that I spoke to they they could not go home because they were sick or then everybody would know they were gay. >> Yeah. >> Or I remember one young man couldn't go home for Christmas because his sister had a new baby and they needed to keep the baby >> and Yeah. So there was a we all pulled together and um there's a lot of caregiving and a lot of bringing meals and um who could take me to the hospital and can you go with me and and >> we had a a a huge schedule to keep in the community safe and to make sure it wasn't spreading as badly as the media would like us to think. So there was information being given. We had um medical team that would talk to us. Um we could get certain pills that wasn't allowed to be given to us, but we had friends on the inside that could sneak a pill here or sneak a pill there. You know, it's what I say. It's beautiful to watch. Even though it's in the midst of crisis, it's so beautiful to watch an entire community without judgment, without segregation, without anything come together for one cause. Let's save our community. And there were doctors that would not take HIV positive men. >> But then there a cadre of doctors formed. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And then we all know their names, >> right? >> But >> I don't know if I can say them. >> Yeah. But a lot were turned away. I mean, we our organization um ran a bit of a smuggling ring across the border to get this particular product that was supposed to be the the best thing that was going to happen. It was egg leison was a nasty yellow substance and I had a freezer chest next to my typewriter because it had to be kept frozen and we couldn't get it in Vancouver and it's kind it's it's a fun story I could save till later but we were yeah >> we we jumped on anything that was even halfway >> an opportunity >> and that's the beautiful thing. Yeah, it was it was a great caper. I'm glad I remembered it. >> Me, too. >> I'm glad we're among criminals. This is fantastic. >> I'm I really love the way you answered the question, uh, Chantel, because I like, you know, you asked us about um queer struggle versus queer joy. But sometimes they're not that separate. Sometimes it's finding the joy in the midst of the like so much of the queer joy that we've had in our history has been through the activism and through the resilience. That's where we found our joy often as a community. >> Yeah. >> Right. Um I'm wondering so you've shared these moments of joy all of them about connection and community uh and in in the face of a world that that does not treat us well. Um, I'm wondering if you can be really explicit about why it's so important for us to preserve those stories of joy and care and friendship and community or just like ordinary queer life. Make a breakfast with your uh with your lover after a night in the happy time happy time social club. That's what it was. Yeah, >> that's what it was. >> Yeah. So, what what what's the importance you think keeping those histories? I mean, I think that's what all of the activism and resilience and fight is for is for that is is to if it's not for the joy and the and the love and and the freedom to be ourselves, then what else are we fighting for? I think that that's in terms of why it matters uh for preservation of history. If you don't have that element of the story, if you don't have that element of the history, then it's an empty story. It's a shallow story. I think that's what gives the story its heart is that we are a people. We're we're just like anyone else. We are a people who want to love and laugh and uh be be loved and be with our partners and be ourselves. That's what motivates us. That's what motivates the activism and the uh and the struggle. Well, I think it's to balance myths and stereotypes too that there were brave people there and there were people that died very young and and community came together and and they were not all they were not sissies. They rolled up their sleeves. We fundraised our butts off and we we broke through barriers. And I think that's that's important to to shine a light on on that time. >> I think we can learn a lot from any history. So we don't repeat it or we don't allow it to be repeated. I think not knowing where you the root of everything where it all started that yellow brick road if you are unaware of it makes it harder when things are coming to know exactly what to do even though you weren't born in that struggle. the fact that you have that freedom and looking at the history and see how far we have come you know and look at all the struggles that we've gone through to have this freedom I think you you look at your freedom completely different >> it it carries a lot more weight when you know the the backstory and know that I didn't have to do that but somebody did and now I can because of that person. It gives you more of a pride in how you treat each other, how you communicate, how you live, you know, it it it create that level of truth and respect >> and that's so important. That's so important to know where you have been, know where you are going. I I also want to again I'm not young though I feel young. Um but for me one of the things that was so helpful in my coming out. I grew up in a very religious household um from the Caribbean like very like very homophobic society. You know what happened over there. Um, and so for me it this like the struggle isn't history still, you know, like I lived through that struggle of finding a community, loving myself. Um, you know, when I started dating my now ex-wife, but when we started dating, gay marriage was not legal in Canada. And it never occurred to me that I could or should do that uh growing up or even in my even in my 20s, you know. So I think for me preserving that joy is also to help folks who aren't, you know, like it's not it's not a it's not a binary, you know, it's not people who have struggled and people who have all the freedom. That's not really what's happening in our in our communities because our community is diverse. But for those people who are still in struggle, to be able to see that queer joy that has has persisted despite the struggle is hope, right? And that hope is what we need, I think, to get us through whatever the struggle we're going through is. So, and I know I'm a moderator, so I probably shouldn't say things like that, but I have a mic, so I'm going to. >> It was good. I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. Thanks. >> Um Glenn, I want to come back to something that you mentioned. >> You talked about like the importance of preserving history as like a as its own kind of thing. Um I'm you know queer history is it's it's shared, it's preserved, it's kept in many ways. You know, today we're doing a lot of oral history. Um but there's like there's so many ways to keep queer histories. There's academic research. Um there's archives, there's court documents that you look at. Um there's art, there's activism, there's lived memory, there's community memory. And so this question is for Glenn. Don't worry, I'll ask you two hero questions soon. But um so for you when you talk about preserving all those histories, whether resilience, joy, or struggle, um how how do all the things that you look at to create your really big history tour, how do they um how do they strengthen each other and inform each other when it comes to preserving your history? Um I think that um I think it all sort of cross-pollinate like just in terms of different um kinds of research or different sources for like where the stories come from. I think it all cross-pollinates. I think that um if you're looking at uh so so like documented queer history has only really happened since the 1970s um when queer people started saving the stuff that they were creating magazines and newsletters or whatever because um uh because there was a shift in in criminal law. So prior to that there isn't much like um there is we're lucky to have what there is. Sometimes there's love letters or journals that have survived. Uh but often what you find yourself looking at and you reference this is like police records or whatever like arrest sheets and that doesn't tell you much. That just tells you when someone was arrested uh and what they were arrested for and that's all. Uh but at least it can be a starting point. So you're like all right well I have a name. Uh maybe I can find out more about this person. So, uh, so sometimes you can find records like that, but all of it, uh, what I'm trying to say is that all of it cross-pollinates. Sometimes you need, um, old police records or court records or that kind of thing to get you started, but then that does that's not going to tell you anything about what it was like for the queer person. Like, that's an official record from someone who was persecuting queer people. So, it's through the filter of bias. So, you've got to read a little bit against the grain. You've got to try and figure out from other clues what it was like for that person. Um, and uh, so and and then when when you're talking about more recent history, there's stuff in the archives uh, that's been saved. That's great. That can give you some clues. There's oral histories. Uh, oral histories are really useful because that gives you someone's lived experience. But then sometimes that can also be full of bias. Uh, people misremember things or they, you know, they remember themselves in a flattering way. So I I think you need like the rigor of a historian who's doing academic research, but you also need um the uh color of a of a storyteller, of an artist or or a novelist or a playwright or a storyteller, someone who knows how to uh take those historical details and then reanimate them and bring them to life so that it becomes a more vibrant living history because that's what people want. like some I guess there are academics out there who are just nerding out on the details, but for most of us, what we want to know is the social history, right? We want to know what it was like for people and how they live their lives. And I think that that takes the work of an artist or a storyteller or a a historical interpreter to bring those histories to life so that people understand what it was like. >> I like that historical interpreter. >> Yeah, I like that. >> Um, I'm going to skip you for a second, Jackie. Bright to Shantel. Wow. >> Um because you are a storyteller, right? And you have lived so many lives. And I'm wondering for you, um is there like we've talked about kind of a historical story of Re Joy. Um can you tell us a contemporary story from your life >> of joy? >> Of joy. I think I was about 17 when I um got into a relationship with my university friend at 21 and that lasted on the ground for many years without anybody knowing. um both families knew each other, but we were best friends and that's all there was to it. And we would have sleepovers. Um like any other kids doing sleepover. That's all I'm saying. Don't give me that. Like I clearly I took out of your book because >> it was fun sleepovers and I got to learn a lot in the broad sense and um it was something that I I still hold dear and we still talk to today. They're still around. um they're not married and um they never miss a birthday, a holiday. We still talk. We talk on the phone still. Um and that was my first love. >> That's so good. That's so great. You're still in touch with your first love. You had sleepovers. >> Um in fact, to put it a little bit further, I'm still in touch with all my exes. Good for you. >> And we're still good friends. I don't know how their partner feel about me, but we're still good friends. Um, they can call me up and ask me any favor and I'd still do it. Um, it's just for me those relationship never fade because we're not in it. The the love for me doesn't stop because we're not in a relationship. I love them, they love me, life happens, but we still carry a deep connection with each other even though we're not together. >> Yeah. And I think this is a beautiful part of of queer cultures is that we get to create these things that are are outside, you know, cis head culture that we're friends with our exes and that we still carry that love and connection. And of course, not every queer person is going to do it, but most of us are going to do it, you know. So, thank you for sharing that about your first love. I will ask you later for details. Not much. >> You got to wait for the book that's coming out. >> Um, so that Jackie, this is your question. Um, so you talked about, you know, this very raw and personal oral history and and we know that queer histories can start from a a very personal place like an oral history, a story, a photo, a shoe box full of photos and clippings. of course is misleading but I'm wondering because you basically you've took taken something very personal your history in the AIDS crisis and HIV crisis and turned it into something very public facing which is a really interesting way to preserve a history so I'm wondering what was the inspiration for you to do that how did you do it >> and Why? >> Well, the playwright really did it with um choosing. Okay. The oral history project had did 108 interviews from various people and one of the I'm getting here. One of the in people that were interviewed and was an interviewee was a man named Rick Wes who was a playwright and Rick had a side job of trans um that's what transcribing transporting transcribing these uh these um interviews and he said oh there's a play in here. So he took it to ZZ theater. I'm a board member of ZZ Theater. Go Zezy. And um and producers and they crafted the the play in my day and he chose some of my words from my interview. So Rick created that. Um but I do have um an interesting bit about it's not a sleepover. How many have had those kinds of sleepovers? Oh, quite a crowd. >> Um, I was invited as uh this is making changes and and making bringing people awareness of of a of gayness. I was invited to go to White Horse to uh as Lovey Sizzle to a conference. women women were awarding the frozen turkey award to the man and I'm sure it was a hatman uh a man who had made some of the worst misogynists or anti-feminist comments in in in government or in media and there was going to be a big conference and this this this guy was going to get a frozen turkey award so they asked Lovey to to present it white horse anti-feminist. Go get them. So, um here's the night and here's the the big um ballroom. You hear glasses clinking and people talking and of course changing in the washroom, right, sister? Yeah. >> Changing in the washroom and and to Lovey and then they came in and said, "Okay, it's time. It's go time." And so I burst through the the room and all the tables and came up to the front and got to the microphone and everybody like and I don't know where it came from but I tapped the mic and I said testicle testicle that gave me so much joy. Do we have permission to use that going forward? It it was great. It just it just what I needed and >> yeah. >> Love sounds like a hoot. So, I am I'm interested from the three of you, you know, like we've got all these histories that exist somewhere, whether it's in our hearts or in the archives or in the court documents or hidden away under somebody's bed. Um, but I'm wondering like whose stories do you feel like we're missing in the greater, you know, where history keeping uh saga would >> uh I think uh may I please >> okay um I have like a two-sided answer to that because on the one hand I think typically what happened in the ' 70s when queer people started like documenting their lives more and saving their stuff is that it was the people who had the ability to create stuff and then save it got their stuff saved. So, uh people who had means to create flyers or newsletters or you know events and rallies and then and promote them. So, people who um have those kinds of resources or access to those kinds of resources and then the resources to be able to save them like a basement or an attic or whatever like so some kind like usually that means some kind of stable housing. So, people with more like relatively more privilege um which usually means cis white men are going to be more in a position to be able to save their stuff and I don't think they were in necessarily in any way gatekeeping whose histories were being preserved they were just saving their own stuff and that's kind of how it happened and now and so I think that does create a gap in the records that we have the archives that we have which is why I think it's so important now uh that we capture as many oral histories as we can of elders who who are holding these histories in their heads, who are aging um and are uh passing away uh especially from diverse communities before we lose those histories. So that's one side of the coin. But I do want to say I don't mean to ramble, but I also want to say that here in Vancouver, we're actually very lucky because um the the guy who started keeping an archive here, some of you may know know the name Ron Dutton, or if you don't, I'd like you to meet him right now. Uh because Ron Dutton is a man who just started saving stuff in his apartment in the 1970s without any budget or funding or job like like he just did this. He volunteered to do it and he created what we now call the BC gay and lesbian archives. And he immediately recognized that we were at risk of that happening that we were going to get a biased collection if he didn't actively pursue more marginalized histories. So he created categories for uh indigenous queer people and people of color and people with disability and people uh like poor people and regional queer history like people of like rural queer history. He created all these um categories in his archive and then actively sought out to have those categories filled. So not every city has a Ron Dutton, but we have him and we we have this incredible archive that is probably more diverse than most. So isn't that amazing? He's not here. But can we just like have a camera done? Hold on. Hold on. >> This is a physical archive. Just one second. This is a physical archive that we can access or >> Yes. So for most like from the ' 70s until a few years ago, maybe 5 years ago, he kept it in his apartment in the West End. And I I got to go there. Cashelle, you got to go there as well. Uh we I think you and I were maybe some of the last people to go there while he was keeping it in his apartment. and I was using it to create uh the walking tour and you could just go to his archive like his apartment and there were like boxes like just boxes of meticulously organized things. He about 5 years ago donated it to the city of Vancouver archives where it is now housed. So now it's more accessible for everybody and they received a grant to digitize some of it. So the photos and the posters have been digitized which means you can access it online. So, uh, that's a step of making queer history more accessible for all of us. >> Good crap. >> Isn't it amazing? Yeah. >> Thank you for sharing that. >> I appreciate that. I have a lot of stuff. You know, >> Ron would like it. I say that some people we have missed are the were the deeply closeted I would say mainly men because that's a lot of my experience too the shame and the deeply closeted men that would that couldn't come out or wouldn't come out or would be dangerous or fear so many layers of white people don't come out. So I think that there's a a silence group that Yeah. >> that we've missed. >> That's all. I'm just I'm I'm hearing my partner uh speak and I'm just thinking to myself growing up in certain countries where it is so taboo and so much of there's a lot of pressure on living up to a standard and expectation and I know for a A couple of my friends in my age group dead, had to get married, had to produce kids, had to live that life, who are now divorced after the kids have been grown and out the door, and they're now just start living their prayer lives. And I think a lot of those stories you don't hear about as much is people did what they needed to do to stay alive based on where they're from and what the laws are there. And there was a lot of closets that doors could never come on. You know, they would sneak out at night or sneak out through the day, made up, do what they're doing, and then go home because that freedom to be you did not exist in their world. And in order to stay alive, you had to create a persona that everybody else can see and accept and approve. And I'm from one of those countries. And when I moved here for years, I looked over my shoulder because information going back home is just as dangerous as me being there. So for years and this is how I actually started drag was a disguise people not to recognize who I was and was brave enough to go out there and march in every single pride across Canada and do all the activism in face cuz back then you could be photographed you could lose your job destroyed families. There was so much negative connotation relating to exposure and I used drag as my cover up to be on the front to do what I do without being recognized. And it's beautiful. And 5 years later, I'm still doing it. >> Thank you. Thank you. And I hope you are making sure that story is is shared and excited. I do um I do a certain function every year and what I do is every chance I get there's always an educational component to all the shows that I do. So I'm always getting the message out there and that dialogue keep it going. >> Great. Yeah. I mean, and that that fear is real today. >> Oh, yes. >> It's still very real for many of us. >> Oh, yes. When I say years of looking over my shoulder, every time I see another person that looks like me, I have to wonder, do they know me? Is this information going to go back? Do they recognize who I am? I I can't be holding hands. I can't be doing this. And it took me years to actually shake that fear and be at a point in my life where I can say, you know what, take it or leave it. >> This is it. >> Yeah. >> Right. But for a lot of us, we still have that fear. even in today's world coming from certain countries and certain families where they just can't be themselves and I get it because I was one of those person. >> Yeah. And I think there are still young people who are are feeling that today. There's >> I I again am not young but when I came out it was very hard for my parents. Um and then and they of course told their friends back home and so I have not been back to my country since I was 18 which was at 5 years ago. >> We went to the same math school. >> Yeah. And so like that's that's a real thing I so loss that I I feel all the time you know that disconnection of culture and community that that exists. But you know like as there's there are reasons for us to to be >> and and stay in the closet. You know those men who you that we lament the loss of their stories. You know there's >> also no judgment there. People make the decisions they have to make. >> Yes. >> To survive in the in the realities that they live in. You know >> Glenn you were going to say >> uh one of the fascinating things that I encounter when I'm on the walking tour is um really diverse audiences. often it's locals, often it's uh people from elsewhere in Canada or in the States or in the Western world, but often from elsewhere beyond the Western world. So like I've had many occasions where like somebody from Poland is on the tour and so we between stops we talk about it and they're like, "Yeah, what what what you're describing is history here sounds like current events to me. I cannot be out at home. It would be dangerous for me to be out. So, this is my one big week basically of coming to Canada and being able to do something like a queer history tour, maybe sort of go to a couple of gay bars or whatever and be out for one week and then I'm going back to China or to Poland or wherever. I've had this conversation countless times with with guests on the tour. Uh, and this is what it's like for them. They get to they come to Canada to have a taste of it, but they have to go home and they have to go back in the closet. >> Yeah. And that's something the flip side like I can't go home or like I choose not to go home. Yeah. >> And they have to live in that existence, right? It's >> two sides of the same coin. >> So I'm wondering this is the final question um before we open it up to the audience. I'm wondering, you know, like what is what's our responsibility both as queer and trans folk, but also as allies to keep the histories of especially those histories that we're missing? What's our responsibility and what can we do to make sure that we don't lose any more history? Well, I've been involved with um creating along with Lisa Low, a playwright um an 8w week storytelling writing workshop for 55 plus gay or queer uh seniors. And we've had two great runs at these workshops and people have been writing and sharing and the stories that fill that room. >> It's probably about 10 or 12 and they work on prompts that and do homework and we have guests that come in and are fabulous Alan Morgan or Nora Randall and and and share their story. So we're right we're working some of us are working on right keeping those stories boiling and turning over and and being worked on. So I'm doing my part. >> Thank you for doing your fun. >> Yeah. >> What's the name of that? It's the NRA Collective. Um, for me being in in the spotlight in so many different ways, um, I have the opportunity of interacting with so many different beach group and I like to say it'll never be the same as you walked into my conversation going out. Um because at some point in that conversation, I'm going to be educating or exchanging information. So when you walk away, you're walking away with a little bit more than you walked in. Um and every function that I do, I try and input that um I have conversation with different age group. I want to know your story and hearing their story and sharing my story and others sharing their story, it keeps it alive. And I think um a lot of members of the LGBT does do storytelling in some way, shape or form. And I think a lot of it is being circulated and without asking. I I think it just naturally happens. I will add that in my day play is going to Toronto. It's going to be mounted at Buddies and Bad Times Theater in Toronto in 2027. So I hope I really hope to get there. I'm sure I will. hope to get there. >> It's amazing. >> Congratulations. >> But reports. >> Um I think uh can I jump? Do I answer this time? >> Okay. Um question. >> All right. What can we do to keep the history alive? Yeah. I think that there uh I think there's lots of things we can do. I think that what we need is ways to make it accessible to people because I think there's >> like there's such a vast chasm between gathering the history or preserving it and then synthesizing it in a way that is digestible for people. Like people aren't going to just go to the archives. I know I told you that the archives are like now accessible online which is great. Go visit them. I encourage you but also it's going to be kind of weird when you get I don't know if you've ever tried looking in an archive but it's not the same as a library. Like you have to know like archives are built for researchers. So you have like you're going to go find a document, you're going to find an arrest sheet or you're going to find a file folder of that you can you're going to flip through to find a you know what I mean? So there needs to be researchers who go to those archives who can pull out like extract the information that's there and then put it together in some kind of digestible format whether that is a book or a walking tour or a play uh or a show or or an art show or whatever it is. So, I think there needs to be more artists and storytellers and uh uh I know you like the phrase interpreter history interpreters uh people who uh who take that information that's been saved by Ron Dutton and by others. There's been lots of oral histories gathered. I you you were part of an oral history project. El Shenier, who was going to be a panelist here, created the lesbian uh I forget what it's called, but the lesbian archives. >> Thank you very much. Uh and Carmel Tanaka has captured oral histories as well. Do you know what those are called? >> The Jewish oral >> something something the Jewish oral history project something >> which is uh located at the Jewish the Vancouver Jewish archives within there. >> That's right. So all these things are there but probably most people from the public don't want to just go listen to hours of oral history testimony. They need people who can take those sources. And so that's kind of our job. like we need artists like us and more interpreters of history to uh I think that's the next step and there's a lot of work to be done there. >> Yeah. Because it sounds like things exist somewhere. Yeah. >> Which is great and maybe news to some of us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's good to know. the oral history project um HIV in my day through U Vic and SFU is open is available to the public and it's pretty easy to find the 108 interviews. It's pretty easy to to locate. So just go to UIC and and uh HIV in my day oral history project and yeah >> you can stop and start and yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like we need to both create interpret um and also we need to go out there and look look for what exists already. >> Yeah. Okay. Um I want to say into the mic what you said Kashelle that the um Carmel Tanaka's work is in the Jewish archives Vancouver. Great. And then what was the other one we >> archive of lesbian oral testimony? >> The archive of the lesbian oral testimony. >> Let's get it at SFU. >> At SFU that El Shier put together. to know people who are not in this room for you guys. >> I know she's working on Joe's Cafe. What happened at Joe's Cafe with the lesbian kiss in and so this is her cuz I see a lot of that on Facebook. Oh >> yeah. Yeah. What was the movie Better Than Chocolate? >> Yeah, Better Than Chocolate also has like a little was inspired by that. >> Um Yeah, there's a piece of that and a piece of little sisters. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's nice. It's not exactly history like a historical but it's historical civilization those events you know >> you know I think we can all watch a movie maybe in pieces but I think we can do it. >> Okay we are exactly on time. It's 7:35 >> which means it's time for questions from the audience both in the room and in space uh on the internet. So, if anybody's got their question written down, we won't be taking questions horally, but if you got your question written down, hand it to one of these people who uh are standing and Cashelle also he'll scoot around and to prove that I am not in fact young. It sounds like you're fishing for someone to tell you that you're really young and that you look great. What's up, boy? I know. I know. I don't need nobody to say it, but I appreciate that you said it. >> Um, so this question is, was there a particular queer movie or TV show or maybe a movie with a queer character that impacted or influenced you? I I have to say it impacted me um more than it influenced me because most of it I lived through. But to see them capturing the raw essence and the history and put that all into a movie was pot. And after I watched the entire thing, I've encouraged every single young and old queer person to watch it. It's like history on big screen. And a lot of a lot of it is so true to the date >> and it touched on so many different areas in our community and what we were going through at the time. And I encourage everybody to watch it. If you haven't seen it yet, it's amazing. Go out, get it, watch it. O >> I don't have one. >> Oh my god, I'm blank. >> But I remember a 1957 Ford convertible and two women and some great kissing scenes. >> And can I get any help from the audience? >> Desert of the heart, baby. >> Yes. Desert of the heart. Good woman. Yes. >> Desert Hearts as they read. Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm I'm I'm a car fan, too. Yes. Desert of the Hearts. Thank you. Jane Rule wrote the book. Yes. Or the story. Yeah. >> Jane R. Kelly Galliano. >> That's right. Yeah. Qu. >> Yeah. There's another one. A couple. Oh, dear. There's so many. Keep going. Okay. How about this question for you, Glenn? So, maybe there's not one that influenced you or uh inspired you. Is there one that you think, you know what, that's not a bad representation of of queers, our history community? >> There's plenty of that. I think probably one of the the best uh representations of the AIDS crisis that that I've seen was uh was it's a sin on Amazon Prime which was a TV series. I forget how many episodes uh it was like eight episodes or something like that. Uh but brilliantly done. Yeah, >> it's a >> great >> And for a fun one. >> Uhhuh. Burkage. Burkage. A fun one. Um it did touch in some reality between Christianity and accepting um LGBT and living together but hiding at the same time and not wanting to expose but trying to navigate all that. So, it did touch on some realism there. But for fun show, I know I've seen the play, the TV show, the original, but I think the one that I loved the most was Robin William, the new bird cage. >> Agreed. Agreed. You know, >> wonderful. >> I still see him. >> Right. >> The house boy was the best. could not walk in shoes, does it? >> We're playing it next weekend. So, next on the 29th on Saturday at 2 p.m. right back here, you can come watch. >> Okay. 29th at 2 p.m. in this room. >> In this room. >> Yeah. >> The Westb Memorial Library. >> Be here or be queer. >> Be here and be queer. >> Um, there's another question. Okay, here's another TV question. uh which is what are some stories that are tragically missing from TV and film since you know so much about queer histories. >> I mean I like how do you where do you begin? Like I think there's um so much of our like the stories that I tell on the walking tour I don't I'm not trying to say that the stories that I tell on the tour should necessarily all be made into movies or TV shows but I am saying that like none of the stories are known like people are shocked when they come on the tour and are like what this happened in Canada this happened here in Vancouver and this and it changed the national like dynamic like pe like the queer history in general and Canadian queer history in general is just like underdocumented, underknown. So this is I'm I'm answering this in a very sideways way because I'm not necessarily saying that these things ought to be made into movies or TV shows, but I am saying that the history ought to be more wellknown. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. There is um Oh, do either of you have things that we're missing in our in our media? I think um facts um a lot of what's depicted that I've seen and I've watched quite a few queer movies and stuff is that they depict us as horny >> um addicts. >> Yeah. >> Um drunks. Um orges. Not that any of those are a bad thing, but that's not what the community is. And I think a lot of time when they're doing these movies, it's always from a negative point. Even though they have queer representation, but it's never in a positive light where two people fell in love and they're not trying to kill each other, you know. um to be fell in love, adopt a child, and they're not trying to cut each other's throat or sniff stuff up their nose, you know, they don't show that positive light. >> Yeah. Or even the kind of mundane >> Yeah. >> light. Yeah. >> And I'm tired of seeing tough guys beat up on weak people, too. But there's always got to be here comes the guys in the pickup trucks and the hats, >> right? >> And they're gonna just take these guys out and Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Enough of that. We We get it. We've lived it. >> We need more positive representation on TV. And um until that changes, the narrative won't change. And I think the stigma will never change based on that as well. Yeah. I mean, we're making strides, but they're not there. We have still a very long way to go. >> Yes. >> Before the queer character gets killed off or, you know, >> what the bisexual is some kind of sex maniac or something. Um, okay. But, sorry, I have lots of questions in my lap. And, um, we're going to change tag just a little bit. Little direction change. Um, so historically and now, how do we access communities that are not accepting uh the queer community? This says immigrant communities, but I want to broaden that because there are all sorts of communities that are not accepting. So, how do we do that with our histories? >> I'm not sure I fully understand the question. Can you say read it again? It says, "Historically and now, how do we access communities that are not accepting?" >> Sorry, could you speak just a little louder? >> Yep. >> Historically and now how do we access communities that are not accepting? >> I don't know. I want to jump in here. I don't know if we really need to access those community cuz most of those community the few uh queer living people there find us they find the family they find a club we see them come on Dave Street they find us we don't find them and when you talk about a a community that's not accepting It's like swimming upstream. Can't fight against it, but the ones that need the help will find us and we will give them that help. We will give them the information required. Um last year we had one young man. He's from Middle East and his family wanted to get him married and do the whole thing and he ran away from home and he was sleeping on the benches at Gymniva Plaza where I normally have conversation with people and have coffee and we started talking and he told me his story and I'm like so what do you want to do? He doesn't want to go home but at the same time he wants to please his family. So he was torn between a rock and a hard place. So you know they will find us wherever we are and they will seek help. So he's doing better now. He now lives in Toronto. He has moved away from the family. He has a job and he's doing very well. And he's now in a relationship, not the one that was coming to marry him. >> So happy ending to that story. But for those community that are not accepting, for those living in those community will always step out of it at some point. And if we can improve the image of gay people to folks in small towns or separate communities and maybe do a little education there, then the person that wants to come out would not be seen as silly or over-the-top or girly or [ __ ] or what, you know, whatever is being being shown in the media or on television. vision. So if we can improve there, we could probably get better results at the other end. >> We have another question. This one is from online. Um it says, "After my grandfather passed away, I learned that he and his wife had hosted gay anonymous parties in West Van." Feels like a story that isn't told much. >> Do any of you have knowledge of these gay anonymous tell is smiling? >> What is this? What are these parties? >> I'm smiling because um and I'm not going to use the word back in the days, but in my younger years, like five years ago, there was so many underground parties. Um there was a specific color light to indicate that you are there. Um there was a lot of code to let you know where you need to be and it was like following breadcrumbs, you know, you got to know what you're looking for to find it. So there was a lot of underground parties and clubs. basement houses had some of the best parties and they had their bar set up and >> oh music and you know but it's also that risk of the raid but there's always one person looking out and um I don't know of that particular one because they never had a name but East Van had a lot of cool parties just Um, okay. Thank you. So, I'm wondering, this is another question from one mind, though. So, if we got these stories about these underground parties or pictures from the '9s or whatever, where can who can we give them to? >> Ron Dutton. >> Shout out to Ron Dutton again. Yeah, like I said, you can give them directly to the City of Vancouver archives because they now host his archive, but also he's still around and actively collecting things and would would be happy like Yeah. If anyone has stuff, >> make sure Ron Dutton gets it, he'll take it to the archives. >> D U T O N. >> Yes. >> D T O N. >> Okay. Um, last audience question. Oh, there's so many good ones. I wish we had a little bit more time. So there are two questions about the queer community coming together. Actually there are three questions about that. And so one of them is wondering can we come together without something as devastating as a mass as a pandemic or an epidemic? Um and if we can how? and can we pull together to address crises and situations that we are going through now there are a lot of organizations I mean there's hymn health initiative for men in Vancouver there are organizations and uh community and um aging queer aging BC C um and a ribbon community which is mainly for HIV AIDS. So uh Dr. Peter Center um there is Rainbow Refugee. There is Outton Street which is a young queer um film group that is in the film festival every year. Like there's no one central point to that question. Um we have now set up so many different arms out there in different communities that people are accessing it everywhere now. >> Yeah. >> So it's not just a central hub and they all are communicating with each other. So we all know what each other is doing and promote for each other. So it doesn't matter where you are, there's going to be some queer organization near there. >> Yes. >> Might be a town over, but it's near there. >> All right. So it it's not a central hub anymore. It's >> expanded. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Uh we've got a wrap. Um and I've got to kick those people who are in here out. Uh there are still a couple of questions that we didn't get to and I'm sorry we didn't, but I'm going to answer one as I invite you to make your way upstairs or log off online. Uh there's a question here about um is there who's telling these stories to the children? Um, >> Big Bird, >> uh, out on out on screens sister organization out at schools tells our stories to the children through film. >> That's great. >> Um, yeah. So, >> story time at the library. >> Story time at the library. Idream library also has like actual stories. Um, Idream library.ca CA I think uh has actual like stories of diverse queer um experiences, graphic novels from like K to 12. So they do exist. We are doing this work. >> If by children we also include teens, then lots of high school groups come on the walking tour as well, which is amazing. Get get a queer history education. >> Yeah. >> Fantastic. Okay. Uh thank you all. A round of applause for our panelists. Thank you to Westb Memorial Library for hosting us and putting this on. You had a student. Thank you. >> Will we do this next year same time? >> Thanks. Last >> No, I still No. Yes. Can we do this next year? Same time, same place. Oh, I really hope so. >> Oh, wonderful. >> Now, if we have some uh surveys going around, you can let everybody know how much you enjoyed this and uh >> they'll be emailed to you. >> They'll be emailed to you. And we've also talked about maybe a resource list as well on where you can learn more queer history. We just want to thank our panelists, our wonderful moderator who did such a fantastic job this evening. And I want to thank everyone who came here and everyone who tuned in online. When we first had uh knowledge that love in a dangerous time was going to be exhibited here at the library, I just had a moment and said, I really need to have a panel uh happen at the library that talks about the importance of queer history and share stories. And this just was so wonderful, beyond my wildest dreams. I'm so happy this came together and I appreciate everyone who came here to hear our stories and please take them forward.