Psychotherapist's Hacks on How to Change Your Life | Lori Gottlieb on Impact Theory

Everybody, welcome to another episode of Impact Theory. I am here with Lori Gottlieb. Lori, welcome to the show. Oh, thanks so much. So nice to be here. Absolutely. Uh I was blown away by your book. I was moved emotionally deeply. I cannot remember the last book that had me like that sort of raw and emotional. Um and I was very taken by surprise. As a a therapist, what why isn't this book more pedagogical? Why did you like really dive into this sort of human side of everything? Yeah, so in the book, I followed the lives of four of my patients, and there's a fifth patient that I follow who's me as I go through something in life and then go to my own therapist, and I really wanted to tell stories because I feel like we see ourselves reflected most clearly through the lens of other people's stories. And so, I feel like, you know, if someone says to you, "You do this or you're like this or this is the thing that's keeping you stuck," we say, "I'm not like that. I don't do that." But when you read people's stories, you see yourself reflected in them, and then you say, "Oh, yeah, that's me." There were two it's just so much more powerful. Yeah, I I would agree with that very much so. And there were two things in the book that really hit me. One you just mentioned, so this notion of getting unstuck and being there and going through you as you pull yourself out and, you know, begin to change your own self-narrative and the way that you're looking at boyfriend and, you know, everything that shook down there. Um and then the other is death. And that was really powerful. And we'll get into that in a second, but I want to start with this notion of getting unstuck. So, is that a core like if you reading the book, I felt like that was a core part of what therapy can help with is people get very rigid in terms of how they view themselves, the narrative that they're telling themselves, and therapy is sort of slow about slowly reshaping that into something more useful. Um, does that feel accurate? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I did a TED Talk about this recently about how we're all unreliable narrators. So, when people come to therapy, they come in, they have a story, they're very sure that this is a very accurate version of the story. Um, but it's a version of the story. And there's so much more to the story, and the reason that they're stuck is because there's something faulty about their narrative. There's something about their narrative that they're not able to see. They can't get to the next chapter. They're like stuck in this chapter. And so, I feel like my job as a therapist is almost to be an editor, where I help people to revise the story, the faulty narrative that they came in with, so that they can move forward. And if you don't do that revision, you're just going to keep going in circles and never move forward. How malleable is our personality? Like some of the people that you um, you catalog in the book, especially John, when you first begin talking about him, it's like, "Whoa, is this guy really going to be able to have" because he felt like such an archetype. It felt like that Hollywood executive um, that we've been told so much about in countless movies and TV shows, and I just was sort of waiting with baited breath to see if he was actually going to be able to make that change. So, in general, how malleable do you think our personalities really are? Yeah. I mean, I think that we're born with a certain temperament, but I think that there's so much room for change. And that's where people don't realize how much agency they have over their own lives. They kind of feel like, "Well, this is just how it is" or "This is the way I am." But no, you're actually making choices. Every moment of every day, we all make choices. And sometimes we make choices that don't serve us. Can you give me examples of the kind of choices people are making? Sure. Uh, you know, the whole like, "Well, you know, we call them help rejecting complainers, right? We all know people like this. So, they're the people who are like, you know, well, yeah, I really hate my job, but I can't switch jobs because and every time you give them a suggestion, they're like, yeah, I can't do that because this or that or the other thing, right? Or yeah, I'm not in the right relationship, but I can't, you know, I can't get out of it because or, you know, whatever it might be. We make choices all the time about what we want to do. Even even things like, you know, I really want this or that or the other thing in my life. And so, we say, well, here are some steps you can take. Well, I can't do that. Right? So, what is that? What is that about? And that that's the stuckness that I'm talking about. Do you confront that head on? Like when somebody walks it So, here would be my temptation as a therapist to be like, all right, let me let me just give you sort of why people come to me. They come to me because they're stuck. Their narrative is not working. Let give me your narrative. Let let's hear what it is and then we'll massage it and, you know, we'll be out in 45 minutes. Um, that very much does not strike me as the approach that you took in the book and I'm guessing is not what you take in your practice. Why not and what is the approach that you take? Well, I think the first thing is that when people come in, they want something to change. That's why they made that call. Um, usually what they want to change is someone else or something else. And so, they don't realize, you know, wait a minute, I'm going to have to do some heavy lifting here. Um, and so, it's not just like you come to therapy, you download the problem with the week, the therapist says, yeah, that's right, that was terrible, you know, these people are terrible and you leave. It's what is your role in this? What is not working about this? How are you contributing to what's not working? And that's not to say that there aren't difficult circumstances, of course, or difficult people out in the world that impact what's going on in this person's life. Um, I remember when I was training one of my clinical supervisor said, before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by [ __ ] right? So, so it's like, yeah, you might be surrounded by [ __ ] in your family or whatever, at work, who knows. Um, but then what is your response? And how are you, you know, what are you doing with what's going on? Do you need to stay in this relationship? Do you need to stay in these relationships? Can Are you contributing to why this person is being an [ __ ] Right? Are you doing something here, too? Um, do you have, you know, the same argument over and over with your partner? And you think that it's all them, because part of it is you. So, that's what happens. So, when people come in, it's like they want something to change, and we have to help them to see, well, what is it that you are willing to do to change? You've talked about therapy and people's need for therapy to sort of breaking out ultimately into two buckets, and you've got freedom and change. Um, I'm curious to hear more about that. How are those the things that people get stuck on, and then going back to what we were just talking about, instead of saying like, here, tell yourself this narrative, this is going to take you where you want to go, you're always doing these sort of little nudges trying to get people to, um, maybe recognize for themselves, have the epiphany, and then sort of go off and change as a result of that epiphany. Um, why do people struggle so much with change? Change is really hard. I don't think people realize how hard it is, because often when they think of change, they think about making positive changes. And so, you say to people, well, obviously, making that change would would improve your life, so why is it so hard to do? But then look at New Year's resolutions. We make those all the time. That's something that might improve our lives, and yet they don't tend to last. And the reason is because, first of all, change is hard because change involves loss. So, even though you might be moving to something better, what you do lose is you lose the familiar. You lose your comfort zone. And a lot of us are very worried about going into a place of uncertainty, a place that we haven't been before. So, some of us, like sort of human nature, would rather stay in the familiar place even if the familiar is miserable or unpleasant than to say, "I'm going to risk something and go to this place that makes me really uncomfortable." They can't tolerate the discomfort of the uncertainty. And I think another reason that change is hard is because there's a big misconception that you make a decision to change and then you change. It doesn't work like that. There's a a chapter in Maybe You Should Talk to Someone called How Humans Change, and it's about all of the steps that we take before we even make the change. And so, there's pre-contemplation where you don't even know you're thinking about making the change, there's preparation where you start preparing to make the change, there's action where you're actually making the change, and then the most important step in making change is maintenance, the maintenance phase. And the maintenance phase is once you've made the change, how do you maintain the change? That's where all the New Year's resolutions go awry. Um and what people don't realize about that is that you're going to slip back. And what people normally do is the minute they slip back, they think, "Well, that didn't work, so I'm just going to give up." You know, like, "I'm going to eat better." And then, "Oh, look, I just had two pieces of cake, so forget it. That diet didn't work, right?" Um no, it's you have to know in the maintenance phase that you're going to slip back and then you just get right back on track. How do you begin to help people get more comfortable with the willingness to change? I think that it has to do with timing and dosage, right? So, when you talk to people about change in therapy, when they're telling you something that they're really upset about and I have in my mind, "Oh, here's what's going on and here's where they're going to need to change." I'm not going to say that right away because they're not ready to hear it. Um so, I might plant some seeds. And so, that's sort of the the timing. And then the dosage is how much, you know, how much am I how many seeds am I going to plant in that one session? Um and so, you know, I I I have a quote in the book that um most big transformations come about from the tiny, almost imperceptible steps that we take along the way. And that's what you're doing in therapy. That someone doesn't necessarily realize that some change occurred in that session, but by the time they come back the next week, something has shifted. Do you have like um uh an informal or formal, I guess, list of like here are the the sort of self-realizations that people are going to need to have. Um so, for instance, I wrote out the when I was trying to teach my employees how to think in a way that would allow them to become successful, I wrote the 25 beliefs that I had had to adopt to go from employee to business owner and and be successful at it. And so, you could encounter somebody and be like, "Okay, well, I get what they're tripping over. I get which one of these beliefs is their biggest problem or, you know, where we need to start." Do you have sort of a rough guideline of how people need to think about themselves or how to the elements of a self-narrative that will allow them to be successful and sort of begin ticking off the boxes as we go through therapy? Yeah, I'd love to hear what those are that you gave your employees. What what were some of them? I I have some I'll share with you. Amazing. So, the some of the most important ones are human potential is nearly limitless. Um you can do anything you set your mind to without limitation. And then the next one is that's a lie, but it's an empowering lie. And another one is we do that which moves us towards our goals. We don't do that which moves us away from our goals. Um and on and on, just trying to I'm trying to get people to believe that the average human is an adaptation machine. That what we are literally designed to do is to acquire skills, that skills themselves have utility. And so, if you put time and energy into getting skills, you're actually going to get better at something. You've shown that in your own life, you know, with the all the different paths that you've gone down. It's pretty extraordinary how, you know, you've lived sort of all these different threads, but pulled them together into I mean, your your work is extraordinary. But, I think it's a result of you having gotten skills in writing and gotten skills as a therapist and gotten skills as a storyteller. And now you're, you know, you're able to bring that together. So, that's basically what the beliefs are are trying to get people to understand. Skills have utility and you can gain new skills. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I've always been interested in story and the human condition and so I just looked at it through different lenses. But, I think the one thing that, you know, when we look at, you know, if I could make a list, I think what I would put first on that list is self-compassion. So, I think a lot of people don't realize that, you know, when I when I give talks, um and I'll I'll say to people, um you know, show of hands, who's the person that you talk to most in the course of your life? Um you know, is it your is it your partner? Lots of hands. Is it your sibling, you know? Is it your best friend? Is it your parent, whoever? Um well, the person that you talk to most is yourself. And what we say to ourselves isn't always kind or true or helpful. And so, we don't even realize that this voice is there. So, what happens is we are holding ourselves back because of this voice that some that we internalized from from, you know, a long time ago. Um and so, I I had this therapy client who um she she didn't realize how self-critical she was. And so, I said, "I want you to go home and write down Listen for that voice and write down everything you say to yourself in the course of a few days and come back to me and we'll talk about it." And she came back, she was very skeptical, and she came back and she started to read the list and she said, "I can't even read these things to you. I can't even say them out loud because I am such a bully to myself." And she had no idea. And so, when I think about what helps people to change, it's self-compassion. People think that you need to self-flagellate to move forward. They think like, I have to be really tough on myself or I'm not going to hold myself accountable. Well, that's just not true because what happens is when you self-flagellate, you have a lot of shame. You're basically shaming yourself for not being good enough. But when you have self-compassion, you hold yourself accountable because you can be kind and gentle to yourself so that the shame isn't there and if you can wash away the shame, you can take action. If you're bathed in shame, you're going to be so afraid of everything because you don't want to be further shamed by this voice in your head that's going to be like whipping you, right? Um and so I think that one thing that I think is really important early on in therapy is to make sure that people are noticing how they talk to themselves, that they're being kind and gentle with themselves so that they can hold themselves accountable to make the changes they need to make. So now the question is how do you develop that self-compassion? What does that look like? Is it self-talk? Um is it replacing the like you write down the negative things that you say and replace each of those with something that's more affirming and gentle? You know, um I had this patient whose um mother would always make her feel incredibly guilty about every life choice that she made and I said to her, "Just because she sends her guilt, doesn't mean you have to accept delivery." And you know, she can she can keep sending it, but you don't have to sign for it. Um and I think the same thing is true about that voice in our heads, right? So every time you hear it, that doesn't mean that you have to let it in. You don't have to invite that voice into your head. So when you hear it, you can kindly ask the voice to leave. And you have to be really aware. You know, in the beginning, it's really an exercise. It's really I need to notice what this is. You know, it's just things that we say to ourselves all day like, "Oh my god, you're so stupid." for like something we did that if a friend did that, we would not think that person is so stupid. And we would certainly never say to them, "You're so stupid because you did this instead of that." Um you know, or just like we wake up and we look at ourselves in the mirror or walking out the door and we're like, "God, you look terrible." Right? Like if your friend looked like that, you would not think that your friend looked terrible. So, we do it constantly. It's incessant. And so, the first thing is like getting that under control. Do you um use any of the tools of like cognitive behavioral therapy to help people begin that pattern interrupt? Yeah, I mean, I use a really eclectic approach in my work. Um most of what I do is kind of in the here and now, which is what is going on right now in the room with us because in the room, what we're doing is a microcosm of what goes on out there. And so, in the safe space of a therapy room, you can do all the things. You can let your freak flag fly, basically. You don't even know you're doing it. That's what's so funny. None of us do, right? We're We're just acting in ways in the world and we don't realize it. And so, you can really um kind of take it apart in the therapy room and then go out there and do something different. So, sometimes, you know, there will be like a a very sort of cognitive a sort of CBT-like exercise that I will give people to do, but I'm not a CBT practitioner. Mm. So, what are some of the the homework assignments that you give people that So, we we covered writing down your negative thoughts. What are some other things you do to help people other begin to develop self-awareness or to deploy the tools that you've taught them? Yeah. Well, it's so interesting cuz I have a podcast now. Um it's called Dear Therapists and um I have a co-therapist on it, Guy Winch. And we have to do in the span of an hour, you know, what we would normally do over time in the therapy room. And at the end, what we do is we give people actionable homework to do. And so, we go through a therapy session with them. We give them the homework. They have 1 week to do the homework and then they have to report back to us. So, there's the accountability. They have to report back to us how it worked out. Um and I and I think there's something about um having a concrete task to do that will reframe what you've been doing. Cuz usually when people come to us, whatever they've been trying has not been working. That's why they come to us. So, it's very specific. It depends on what the person's situation is and where we're trying to get them. There's no sort of one-size-fits-all homework assignment. Mhm. Are there um sort of main groupings? So, self-narrative seems like one that's probably going to come up a lot. Um another one you talk about in the book that I thought was really profound and speaks to So, those two buckets, change and freedom, um you bring up um Victor Frankl and that his notion of freedom. And I'm not sure entirely when you said those two buckets if you were referring to that type of freedom. Um what did you mean by that? And is is that something that comes up a lot? Yeah, so it is. It's that, you know, his his quote is um between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space lies our choice in terms of how we respond and in that choice lies our freedom. Um and and I think that's what I'm talking about is that sometimes we're so reactive, right? So, like, you know, someone says something or does something, we make meaning of it in the moment and we impulsively react. And so, if you can just take a breath, right? Just take a breath to like give yourself that space that he's talking about. And in that space, we can choose. How do I want to respond? Do I want to respond in a way that I know will lead to more chaos? Or do I want to respond in a way that maybe will lead to something different? It's kind of like especially you see this in relationships where two people they're always doing a dance with each other. And you know, you can you can just like if you hear their arguments or their disagreements, um the content might be different, but the underlying way that they argue is exactly the same. So, it doesn't really matter. You know, you can just change the content up, but it's the same thing. Um and so, if one person changes their dance steps, one person does something different, then the other person either falls flat on the dance floor or has to change his or her steps, too. And usually what happens is the person changes their steps, too. And then it's like it's it goes back and forth. So, now they've changed their steps, and now you're going to change your steps, and it just it leads to a completely different way of being. But back to your question about like other homework assignments, um another thing that's really common is asking people to perspective take. So, often what happens is people are very invested in their version of their story. And I will have them write out the other person's version of the story. Like, if you could forget, you know, forget about your version for a minute. Like, let's just say your version is valid in the way that it is, and that they have an equally valid version. You don't have to agree with the points, but can you get into their head, imagine if they were sitting on my couch right now and telling me their version of the story, what would they say? And that's so eye-opening cuz so often we attribute all kinds of motives and intentions to other people that actually aren't there. Um and so, if you could say, "Oh, wait. The reason that they did that might have been this." Um you know, if you can go from a place of again, compassion, and and really write out their version of the story, you're going to learn a lot about what you were missing, and there's probably some truth in there, and there's probably also some some place of overlap where you both actually agree about something that you didn't even realize you agreed about. When you first have them do that, do you tell them, "Hey, you should be coming from a place of compassion. When you try to teleport yourself into their shoes, don't just give back all the same things you've already said from your side. Try to to really look at it with warm and loving eyes." Like, what is that instruction sound like? Well, I think it's more about um let's assume that this person's intentions were good. That this person was acting in good faith. Why do you think they got so upset? What would they say? Like, what would they say was the problem here? What was the thing that triggered that? Um and once you start doing that, you know, you start and you and and we I like a lot of detail in the story. You know, it's like the more detail you put in, the more you can kind of get into their mindset. We've actually done this live on the podcast where you can hear um you know, an example of someone going through this perspective-taking exercise. And do you find that people start usually from um like the because they're frustrated, because they're upset, that in the beginning they're sort of giving them negative um motivations uh or something that is, you know, bad or broken about themselves. And so, that person is attacking them for that thing and that you have to move them over or is it in the specificity they cannot sort of help but steer themselves to sort of more realistic um emotions, motivations? Well, I I think where people get tripped up in the exercise is at the beginning where they're trying to defend themselves. So, it's it's hard for them to write out the other person's perspective because every time they write out, "Well, the reason this person might have done this." But then, "Oh, but I had very good reasons for doing that." Um and so, they're trying to defend themselves. And so, it's it's about you are that person while you're writing this. If you were sitting on my couch, your homework assignment is pretend you're that person and then come back next week as that person. Right? So, you've written out their perspective and tell me what they would say. You're not here to defend yourself. Just tell me what they would say. One thing Um you learn a lot. Go on. You learn a lot just from having to step in. You you learn a lot about yourself, about your assumptions, about um the other person that you didn't you know, you you there's you get a lot of warm feelings toward the other person that you didn't have before. Um and and I see this so much in couples when I'm seeing them in the office. And you know, somebody will say um you know, something like, well, you know, you never listen to me. And then I'll say to that person, how well do you listen to them? Right? Because the other person has the same exact complaint. And so you see that you actually have a lot in common. Usually both people feel unheard, unseen, alone, um misrepresented. Right? How do you begin to chip away at that ice? I know a lot of what you do is couples therapy. You know, let's say there's like a real betrayal. Let's just make this nice and juicy. So they come in, there's been real infidelity, and there is just heartbreak and ice and anger and bitterness. How do you begin One, do you tell people, hey, like maybe we should just go our separate ways at this point? Or do you sort of always come from a place of this can be worked through? If you want to work through an infidelity or a series of infidelities, it's so important that the person who cheated is willing to take responsibility and do the work that's necessary to repair the relationship. And so, you know, one of the first things that I want to find out is is that what the person wants to do? Because if they don't or they're not willing or able to, then no, it's not nothing's going to happen there. But often people are and I've seen so many relationships um you know, where there's been this betrayal and the trauma of the betrayal um you know, really thrive after they've done the work and and become these incredibly strong relationships and marriages. I've got to know then, what's the work? Like how do we Cuz that's the one thing my wife and I have always said, yo, that is a that is a bridge too far. Right. Yeah. Um you know, and and I think again, I think that nobody imagines that they're going to do this. Or very few people do, let's put it that way. You know, most people who cheat say, "Oh my god, I I it it goes against everything I believe in. It goes against everything that I ever promised to my partner or to myself." Um you know, most people are not sort of setting out to do that. And there are all these reasons that they do. And so, um you know, I think in those cases when people are really able to examine, "Well, what happened for me? Why did I do that?" And you know, to really take responsibility for what happened, understand what happened so it doesn't happen again. So, if I'm taking responsibility for that, I'm just saying, "Hey, look, I let myself get into this situation. I felt totally disconnected from you. I didn't think you loved me anymore. I didn't think you wanted me you're blame you're blaming the other person right now. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Like, how do I How do I How What does that process look like? about you did something. It's not about you did something and you made me cheat, right? And And that's the thing where I think is it makes it really hard to repair when somebody says like, "Yeah, what I did was wrong, but you know what? You made me feel like this." But no, you didn't You know, nobody made you cheat. You know, there are lots of ways to deal with feeling alone. There are lots of ways to feel with to deal with feeling disconnected. Um you know, cheating shouldn't be one of them. So, um you know, so so it's really about understanding, "Well, what else was going on?" And usually it has something to do with maybe how they were feeling in the now, but often it's something about um how they were how they felt about themselves in the past and how that came into the relationship. There's a saying that we marry our unfinished business. And if you Right? It's true. If you don't take care of that unfinished business, you are going to bring every sort of psychological obstacle that you came into the marriage with into that marriage, and it's going to get in the way. And so cheating is often a symptom of somebody who hasn't dealt with their unfinished business. Oh, can we get specific? Like what what is example? Like is close to common and maybe this is all just It's so unique. Everyone's like a snowflake, but if there's any sort of typical patterns, um I'm so curious to know like what what that thing is that that person that cuz like when I was giving you the example, I didn't feel like I was blaming the other person. So, I realize, okay, that would be sort of realization number one is like you've just got to be like where is this coming from totally within myself. Yeah. So, I'd love to get an example of unfinished business that one brings into a relationship. Um unfinished business is somebody's parent just died and now all of a sudden they're, you know, they go and have an affair. Um there was something unresolved in the relationship with their parent. Um and now it's sort of like coming out in, you know, they're acting out in whatever way they're acting out. Unfinished business is I don't know how to tolerate um being alone. And so when I feel alone in this relationship, I have to go find it somewhere else because when I was alone when I was young, um it was it was not that kind of alone where you're in the house with people that you know love you and have you in mind, but I felt utterly by myself in the world. And so every time I'm alone, I feel that way here and I'm blaming you for that, but maybe it's something that I'm carrying with me from my past because I never learned how to be with myself. How much of this is and and not just infidelity, but how much of like this, like the need for therapy or just your everyday run-of-the-mill dysfunction is childhood dependent and how much of it just it could come anytime? Yeah. Um I see both. I mean, sometimes there's something happens in the present, like there's a big trauma, there you know, somebody's uh someone close to somebody dies. Um you you there's um there's some kind of loss. Usually there's like a big loss in the present and so people come in for something like that. It might be um you know, the death of a child or the death of a spouse or um you know, a miscarriage or you know, what whatever it a job loss, right? Something like that, some kind of loss. Um it might be you know, usually there's some kind of way that they're going through the world that is not working and that's something that's longer term. That's something that they came in with. And usually that's because they're still kind of toggling between their childhood self and their adult self, no matter how old they are. Um they haven't really let go of whatever was holding them back in the past. So, it's kind of like wearing clothes that don't fit you anymore and they don't even realize they're wearing them. They're wearing these childhood clothes. And so and so that stuff just keeps popping up and so it creates a lot of um difficulty in all kinds of you know, relationships, both professional and personal. So, staying on infidelity for a second. So, responsibility, that that's huge. Just cuz this is infidelity and death are like the sort of just earth-shaking. I can't imagine how hard it must be to get past either of those. Yeah. So, you've got taking responsibility for yourself as the person that that cheated. Where does forgiveness fall into this? And does it, I guess. Yeah, I love that you asked about forgiveness because so there's a whole section in the book about forgiveness and um it's about this idea of there's a there's a mother in the book and she did not protect her children from their father when they were young and they as older adults um now or young adults now, but as older kids don't want to talk with her. They don't want to have a relationship with her and she keeps wanting their forgiveness. And what I tried to explain to her was that the more she kept trying to get their forgiveness, the more resentful they were going to be. That she could be the mother that they needed now and see where that relationship goes without any expectation of their forgiving what happened in the past. And so what ended up happening was, and you know, a little bit of a spoiler, but what ended up happening was that um three of the children um decided that that they wanted to have a relationship with her because she was able to be the mother that they wanted now, but it didn't erase their pain and they didn't forgive her. They had compassion maybe for her in a new way, but they didn't forgive her. And so we have this saying, forced forgiveness. That a lot of people say, oh, forgive the person who did X, Y, or Z to you and you will be free. That's not always the case. And so it I it really bothers me when people are forced into this position of, you know, you have to forgive when they don't actually feel forgiveness. So when it comes to infidelity, I'm not about, you know, you have to forgive the person. I think if anything, the person who who committed the infidelity has to come to a place of peace with with themselves, right? It's not like your partner has to do this. It's sort of like apologies. I think about this a lot when I see people in therapy where, you know, who is the apology for? So when you say I'm sorry to someone, are you saying you're sorry because you'll feel better about yourself? Or are you saying I'm sorry because, you know, then you you're hoping that they'll forgive you? Are you saying I'm sorry cuz you truly feel sorry and will it help the other person? So sometimes you might want to say I'm sorry, but the other person doesn't want to hear that from you. Right? Um so the thing about um you know, when we've done something that we regret doing, whether that's infidelity or something else, how do we come to terms with ourselves and then let the other person come to terms with you however they want to. Woo! Okay, so Rita, the woman that you're talking about from the book, one of the most extraordinary stories in the book, absolutely gut-wrenching when she is I mean this this is a much older woman, is fascinating in its own right for, you know, is your life ever really over as long as you've got air in your lungs? I mean that's incredible and and her journey to being able to reach out without wanting to be forgiven. Like got it, that but super powerful. Now let's go to a couple that is staying married and not forgiving the person who cheated. That seems like a recipe for disaster from my naive not a therapist mind. How does that work? Like how can you be with somebody that doesn't forgive you? Like I could see not forgiving the act and sort of like setting that on a shelf to the side somewhere or something, but like ooh god, I don't think I would stay in a marriage if the if I had done something that the person couldn't forgive. E- E- even if rightly so. I just wouldn't want to be in that stew if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean I guess that it depends on how you're defining forgive. So I I I think if you're holding a grudge, no, that's not going to work. So you you need to come to a new place vis-a-vis the other person. Can you define forgiveness then? Yeah, I mean I think forgiveness is saying like, you know, you got a get out of jail free card. Like you know, like I I forgive you um I I I'm not I'm I'm okay with it, you know, I'm okay I've come to a place of sort of peace with it. Um I think you have to come to a place of I understand it. Um I understand what happened with us. I understand that you did a lot of hard work and you understand more about you. I had to do some work to understand more about me. Um but that is always going to be something painful for that person. And and that doesn't mean that you're going to lord it over them. That doesn't mean that it's going to come up because that's not going to work. Uh, meaning come up like every time you have an argument that oh, when you did that thing that really hurt me. We call that, you know, bringing out the kitchen sink. It's like every time you have an argument that like you bring out like every other argument that you've ever had. Um, but it's more about hey, that was our marriage then and now we're in a new marriage. And you know, I I I don't think you you know, there are lots of people who say, you know, I I don't I don't forgive that, but I'm I'm so in love with this person and and we both grew and we both created a new marriage together and we're stronger than ever. How do people begin to build back that trust? Um, through actions. So, words really don't mean a lot when it comes to trust. Actions over time. And it takes time. And so people really have to be invested if they want to rebuild after an infidelity. And when you're beginning that process, what like is there and I mean this I guess could go for anything it doesn't have to be infidelity, but when there's that real sort of palpable coldness between two people, like so I'm I'm thinking of in the book John, um, was an extraordinary journey and I want to set aside Gabe for a second cuz that I really want to talk about that. But John just is like the coldness that it developed or the distance that it developed between he and his wife, um, how like what are the techniques to when two people truly want to come back together, they've got a shared history, they've got a shared life, they've got the reasons to want to overcome that, how? Well, I think in John's case, you know, his whole thing was and I think a lot of men feel this way. They feel like I have to be the rock, right? There's something that that happened to was a trauma in their lives and you know, I can't fall apart because if I fall apart, the whole house of cards will come down. And so, um you know, and I I I I see this so much, you know, with with men in my practice where um you know, and and I think this has to do sort of related to infidelity, too. Um both men and women cheat, of course. Um but often I'll see that men aren't able to speak up. Um and and part of it is this you know, the cultural messages that they get. So, men will come in and they'll say to me like, you know, I've never told anyone this before. And women will come in and they'll say, I've never told anyone this before, except for my mother, or my sister, or my best friend, right? So, they've told some people, but it feels like they haven't told anyone. So, in couples, when like, let's say it's a heterosexual couple, and the woman will say to the man like, you know, I really want to get to know you. I feel like there's this distance between us. I feel like you don't share your inner life with me. And so, then he does, and he starts to open up, and he starts crying. And he starts really crying. And often she will look at me like deer in headlights, like I don't know what to do like I'm so uncomfortable with this, even though it's what she asked for. It's like, I don't feel safe when you don't open up to me, and I don't feel safe when you open up too much to me, when you start crying, you know, and and I start to feel unsafe. It's like Goldilocks. It's like not too much, not too, you know, like like not too little, like there's just sort of this right amount of of emotion that a man can share. And so, I I I hope that's changing in our culture because I think both men and women would be much happier um if we could all walk the walk, which is um you know, if you say you want men to be vulnerable, give them the space to be vulnerable. Where do you think we bump up against um nature on that one? And I I am well aware that trying to tease out nature and nurture is, you know, in any sort of delineated perfect line is is impossible. Um but I I will say I believe, and I'll be very curious to hear what you think, that so science points that we are roughly 50% hardwired and 50% malleable. And if that's true, I would say that certainly some of that hardwiring has to do with our sex. And like when you tell the story that um you know, guys will say, "Oh, I've never told anybody this." And girls are like, "Oh, I've never told anybody but da da da da da da." Like I don't I don't feel, and I could be totally wrong. I'm willing to accept that. I don't feel like I'm I feel that way. No one ever told me not to cry. In fact, my mom always encouraged it. Um but I would there are many things that like anxiety for instance. It took me so long to tell my wife that I felt anxious. And some of that for sure is like I wanted to be tough, but also like when I say when I got around guys that that were tough for the first time in my life, I took to that like a fish to water. Like I've been waiting for it my whole life. Like there was something that spoke to me in a way that being, you know, very well raised, I would say, by my mother to be open and vulnerable and all that, it didn't have that like glowing orb of resonance that it had when I finally got it around guys that were a little bit more rough and tumble. And that like where the where the sexes begin to differ seems important enough at least as a person to reflect on yourself like where what lane would I feel more comfortable in. And so I'm curious like how that plays out. If you think that there really is like in this particular example, and I've heard you talk about this before, and I'm so glad you brought it up now cuz I'm so curious to to get your answer on whether you think like there is just a certain amount of like women will have some kind of reaction if the guy doesn't have a certain amount of stoicism. Nobody wants to be dating a rock, but like a certain amount of stoicism like if somebody rolled up and was physically threatening that the guy isn't going to crumble. Mhm. Yeah, I mean I think these are these are sort of like cultural expectations that we have. With no biological imperative. Oh, I don't know. I don't know, but I can but I can tell you that when men do come in my office and they do open up, the the kinds of things that they think about, that they worry about, that they feel are very similar to the kinds of things that women think about and worry about and feel. Um, you know, what does it mean to um you know, what does it mean to be loved? What does it mean to love? Um, what does it mean to be accepted? Um, what does it mean to be a good parent? What does it mean to be a good um you know, son or daughter, right? Um people have the same concerns about life. Um, you know, what does it mean to um to succeed? All of those questions. Um, what does it mean to be a good friend? So I I think we just don't give men the space to talk about some of these things. I'm not saying that men and women are are wired exactly the same. I'm not saying they're exactly alike, but I will say that there's so much more commonality and that when people can be open to that commonality, I think that the relationships are much richer. I wish that we had 7 hours. There are so many things to to go down with you. One thing I would stab myself in the face if we didn't have plenty of plenty of time to talk about is Gabe trauma. Mhm. Tell people the the John and Gabe what their relationship was and how it came out and then I was going to ask if if you saw it coming. Yeah, so um so not to create a whole spoiler in the book, but um for those people who haven't read it, but uh John is this person who when I first meet him, he is incredibly successful in his work. He works in Hollywood and he he's very unlikable. He's very abrasive. He thinks he's better than everybody else. He's having trouble sleeping. He's having trouble with his wife. And he kind of feels like everybody is an idiot and he knows better. And and and I you know, people said to me like why would you treat him? Why would you see this person when he was so insulting to you from day one? And it's because I think that people's behavior speaks the unspeakable. And he definitely, you know, when you talk about Gabe, that was the unspeakable. So there was something that had happened in his life that he had talked to nobody about. And he also had some sort of stuff from his childhood, you know, that that, you know, he lost his mother when when he was young. And and so it was really about just, you know, I knew I was going to have to figure out what was what was the source of his pain. Because people act a certain way because they have to keep you at a distance so that you can't see their pain. So he could keep everybody at bay with his obnoxious behavior, then nobody could get close to him and nobody could see his pain. And you know, when I found out what it was and it was it was, you know, I I wasn't expecting what it was. You know, it was it was really traumatic for him and and he'd been carrying this around for years. And he talked to nobody about it because he felt like he had to be the strong person in the family. He had to be the person who couldn't, you know, what he called it falling apart, right? Um And and what he came to learn was that it actually weakens people. So when you when you think you're being strong by pushing down your feelings, you're actually, you know, your psychological immune system is like in overload. And you're you become incredibly shut down and you can't really live. You're like alive but dead. You're alive, you're going through the motions, but you're not living at all. And so it was once he was able to feel the pain and experience the pain and share that, um he was able to live again. And so it's like sort of, you know, counterintuitive. We think, "Oh, I I I will die if I feel this kind of pain." No, you will die if you don't feel this kind of pain. Yeah, that was so well articulated in the book. And Lori, I have to imagine people lavish you with praise for how well the book is written cuz the book is written freakishly well. The way that you interweave the stories, um uh I I was truly moved. And for people that watch my podcast, that they will sense my sincerity to my toes. Um it was just handled so so well with the way that you're sort of parallel tracking the different lessons and how what you needed to learn in therapy is tied to the people that you're being a therapist for and like the way that the the different realizations begin to unlock things in your life and their life and oh man, it was just absolutely crazy. And like trump childhood and trauma freak me out. Childhood freaks me out because I don't like that you can't undo something, that there's this magical period in your childhood and if that's [ __ ] up, like, "Hey, sorry." It's just like you're in trouble for the rest of your life. Well, no. So, I have a really different view of that. So, I think that a lot of people Yeah. Well, yeah, because that that was such a grim view of life. Um you know, some people feel like they get into young adulthood and they feel like they want to redo. They want to redo on their childhoods. And you can't move forward until you accept the fact that you don't get to get You don't get a redo on your childhood. And if you can live with that loss, right? I don't get a redo on my childhood, but here's what I get. I get the freedom of adulthood. And you will not be free in adulthood if you are holding on to this hope for a better past. You cannot move forward to a better future if you are holding on to the hope for a better past. So, that's the work of therapy. The work of therapy is you're not going to get a redo. How do we deal with that loss? And then, how do you use the freedom that you have now to create the kind of present and future that you want, that you didn't get to have? So, how do you deal with that loss? Do you just have people reframe it? Is it focusing them on what they could have if they were willing to let go? Is letting go the right word? Like, what is that process? there's this fantasy. There's this fantasy of, you know, if my past had been this way, then everything would have worked out perfectly. And I think it's helping people to see a more balanced view of their lives. Um, and I think it's also to help them see the, you know, what they have learned from the experiences that they've had so they can integrate that experience into their lives. So, you know, when we talk about moving forward from the past, we're not talking about, um, you know, forgetting it happened or pretending it didn't happen or saying I don't feel pain around that cuz you will. But it's more about how do I integrate that experience into my life so that I don't compartmentalize it and it comes out in all these unconscious ways that where I self-sabotage left and right because that's what people do when they're not integrating the experience into their lives. They self-sabotage in all kinds of ways. But how do I integrate that into the experience of my life so that I can make some kind of peace with it even though it will be painful, and then move forward so that I can taste the freedom that I never had. Thank you so much for coming on the show. When Where can people find out more about you? You've got so much going on. Oh, well, first of all, I'm so glad the book resonated with you in that way. Um, you know, so many people have talked about how even though their situations might not look anything like the people in the book, and that's why I picked those people specifically because it seems like all five of us are so different from one another and maybe even from the reader, but we can all see ourselves in every single one of those five. Um, so people can get the book anywhere they get their books, um, you know, independent bookstores, Amazon, uh, Barnes & Noble, wherever. Um, and, uh, people can watch my TED Talk, uh, at ted.com. They can, uh, listen to the new podcast called Dear Therapist, um, on Apple Podcasts or anywhere they get their podcasts. Uh, they can read my weekly Atlantic column, Dear Therapist. And they can follow me on Instagram, Twitter, um, you know, wherever they feel like, uh, catching up with what I'm up to. Very cool. Well, thank you again, Lori, so much for coming on the show. It's amazing. I will definitely continue drinking deeply of your world. I think it's really, really extraordinary. Uh, I look forward to seeing what you do next. And speaking of things that are next, boys and girls, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. The word dharma means a lot of things, and it's always hard to translate ancient Sanskrit words into modern-day English, but the closest two definitions are your true nature and your eternal purpose.