Psychotherapist: 4 Trauma Responses That Control Your Behavior (Without You Knowing) | Meg Josephson

We're very hypervigilant of what do people think of me. When we are constantly doing that in all of our relationships, we lose connection with our inner world. That's trauma. She is a licensed psychotherapist, a certified meditation teacher, and the New York Times bestselling author of Are You Mad at Me? Today, she's here to break down how to stop focusing on what others think about you. What is the fawn response? >> When we're in [music] the fawn response, we appease the threat. We try to be liked by the threat. [music] We satisfy it, impress it, compliment it so that we can feel safe again. [music] And the other person might say, "No, I'm not mad at you. Yes, I still love you. Yes, I think you're beautiful." And temporarily, it feels like, "Okay, we're good then." But then it comes right back. >> Why do so many people ask the question, "Are you mad at me?" >> I think there's a lot of [music] reasons. I think I'm assuming a lot of people come to you who have dealt with being a people pleaser most their life. >> That was me. And I wanted to make everyone happy around me. I wanted to >> shift and change my personality to make sure someone liked me or wanted to hang out with me when I was a kid. >> Um I worried when my parents got mad at me. Uh I would lie so they wouldn't get mad at me. whatever I could so that people wouldn't be upset at me. And that probably built a pretty deep wound and a trauma response in me in my teens and my 20s until I was about 30 when I started my healing journey and realized, "Oh, I've been a people pleaser most my life." >> How many people >> in the world do you think are actual people pleasers? >> Oh, I think so many. But I think it's it's sneaky. I think the type of people pleasing that you're speaking about and that I think that are you mad at me as a question speaks to is this feeling >> of what do they think of me? Am I bad? Have I done something wrong? um it's it's such an internal experience whereas I think we hear of people pleasing as a more active approach as you know over apologizing and overextending which is all true but >> I think what's spoken about less is that internal experience of overthinking ruminating feeling like I don't know who I am because I'm morphing myself to be liked and I'm changing myself in every room that I go into so it's so common but in my practice I find that it manifests in such different ways for different people. So, it's not this blanket thing. It's so personal based on >> the home we grew up in and our nervous system. Uh but it is it's very prevalent because it's so rewarded. >> We're so applauded for, you know, this threat response. So, >> right. Why do so many people ask the question, are you mad at me? >> I think there's a lot of reasons. I think especially now there's a timeliness to it. We are being perceived in so many ways. We have so many ways to receive validation. They saw my Instagram story but they didn't rece respond to my text. Why is that? Did I do something wrong? Did my joke not land last night? Uh why did they only why did they put a period at the end of their sentence instead of an exclamation point? or why did they not like haha my message? So, we have so many ways online to receive validation that we're doing enough and that people like us and that I think that absence of those things can send us into that tail spin of insecurity. So, I think there's a digital element to it. Um and I also th the this um response this arumatomy thinking is quite a modern threat response. So >> we have fight or flight or freeze which are more primal threat responses but this one is called the fawn response. >> What is the fawn response? >> So the fawn response is when we are detecting some sort of threat. So that threat can be right in front of you. It can be like a lion in primal, you know, scenarios or it can be, you know, some some tangible threat right standing right in front of you. But it can also be perceived. It can be like, oh, my boss is being kind of cold to me today or my partner is being really quiet. Did I do something wrong? Or are they upset with me? That's a perceived threat. When we're in the fawn response, we appease the threat. We try to be liked by the threat. we satisfy it, impress it, compliment it, maybe even flirt with the threat so that we can feel safe again. >> Interesting. >> So, it's really about my safety comes from being liked. I need to do more in order to be liked. And uh it's really the only threat response that we're not punished for in society. We're applauded. You're such a good girl. You're so easy. You're >> um which reinforces the behavior. >> It reinforces it. I mean >> I mean there is something to like having good behavior and having good manners and like being respectable and like >> fitting in I guess into society in certain ways but also not over fawning I guess >> to say yes to every person's request >> and and not create a boundary or not >> make sure you're taking care of yourself as well. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> It's a balance and we're I always say this we're we're pro-social beings. We want harmony. We want connection. >> And healing the fawn response doesn't go away from that. It moves toward it because it allows us to have more authentic relationships and deeper connections. Because if we're people pleasing all the time, people don't really know us. They don't really know what we're thinking, what we're feeling, cuz we're saying like, "Yeah, no, no, that's totally fine. Whatever you want." We're not letting people in beneath the surface. And so, uh, healing this peopleleasing pattern really allows us to have that deeper connection and moves toward that. >> As I started to heal the people pleaser in me and started just saying no. >> Yeah. >> Or saying, "I don't want to do that." >> Yeah. >> Or, "No, I'm not going to go to your party." Or, "No, I'm not going to do this favor for you." Or whatever. for whatever reason. >> Mhm. >> It didn't go well in the beginning because for so many years I would overextend to make others happy, right? To try to be like, "Hey, I can be reliable at any time you need me." >> And I stopped being reliable to myself >> by trying to please everyone else. >> Yeah. >> So, how does saying yes to everyone else constantly disrespect ourselves? >> Well, when we're in this state of being, we're we're very hypervigilant. We're very hypervigilant of what do people think of me? Did they like me? Are they pleased with me? When we are >> constantly doing that in all of our relationships all the time, we lose connection with our inner world >> because in order to be so attuned to what's happening out here, we have to lose connection with our own preferences and wants and needs. And this isn't to say in healing this we're only focusing on ourselves or we are, you know, we're so selfcentered all the time and we're neglecting our relationships. No, quite the opposite actually. It's being in connection to what's happening in here at the same time as being in the world and in relationship to other people. So the cost of people pleasing with everyone all the time is that uh well a lot of things we feel like we don't know who we are. We feel resentful in our relationships. We feel like we're giving everything to everyone and no one's giving back to us. >> But it can be a little unfair because well people may not know what you need if we if you're not expressing it. Um but what's important to know is that this way of being for many of us is a safety mechanism. We're we're trying to feel safe. We're trying to feel loved. Um and sometimes we have to do that. And when we're doing it all the time, that's when it becomes totally exhausting and it's not sustainable. What's >> What is the solution to overcoming people pleasing so that you can actually feel safe within your body instead of trying to look outward and create false safety? >> It's a lot of things. I would say the most the core piece is increasing your tolerance for discomfort. >> Gosh, most people don't have this. I didn't have this for a long time. It's more the emotional. I could have physical discomfort. >> Like I could train and work out and like exhaust myself physically, >> but I lacked >> the emotional courage >> totally >> to look at someone or just say no and see them be upset with me. I just didn't know how to deal with that. >> It's so hard. It took years of training that emotional skill. >> It's still not enjoyable, but it's like something I can navigate with >> having fun. [laughter] >> But um >> you know, getting on the phone with someone who wanted to >> do a project with me and was like really asking me to do this thing and I was just like, "No, I'm I'm not going to do this." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and them saying, "Come on, I thought we were friends." And I'm like, "You haven't talked to me in 5 years. We're not friends. Like literally just saying we're not friends and that's okay. >> And I that means that doesn't mean I have anything against you. I want you to be successful. >> You should thrive and succeed. But we don't need to be false fake friends. >> Right. We don't need to fake it. >> Totally. >> We don't Just cuz we hung out 10 years ago >> doesn't mean I'm your best friend. >> Just cuz we live in the same city >> doesn't mean we need to [laughter] be friends. And and I remember when I had this conversation with this person, you know, years ago, and I was like, we're not friends. I don't think I'd ever said that in my life. >> Yeah. >> And it was like a little scary to say. I was like, it takes courage to be in discomfort, right? It takes courage >> to develop those emotional tools. >> It's not easy. [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> If you've never developed it, unless you had some narcissistic tendencies as a kid and you just said no all the time, I guess maybe that's easier for you. >> Yeah. >> But it wasn't easy for me. Well, and especially if you grew up in a home where you were on high alert a lot of the time. If you were walking on eggshells with your caregivers, if your if your caregivers were very unpredictable or critical, >> we actually learn it's unsafe for me to say, "No, I'm not allowed to have needs. I have to make sure everyone else is happy and it doesn't matter if I'm not happy." And so that's just a that's a safety mechanism that's learned so young and is then carried into adulthood. Yeah. >> Why? Because it worked. It gave us safety. >> And it's embedded in your nervous system. You can't just like break your nervous system like overnight. >> You have to go through an unlearning and a new learning healing journey, right? >> Such a practice. >> It's a practice. >> Such a practice. Cuz that younger version that learned, I need to people need to like me for me to be safe. >> Yes. >> That part is still in you frozen in time. That's trauma. That's what happens during trauma. And so when some scenario in adulthood is reminding you of those early instances, that part comes out and is like, I know what to do here. I will change how what I'm saying. I will say yes even though I want to say no. I will say no. No, no, no worries. If not, even though I'm really resentful. So it's very safety seeeking and understandable. [clears throat] If someone listening or watching is understanding they have this tendency, >> this peopleleasing or fawning tendency um where their nervous system doesn't have the courage to say what they truly want to say with people, whether it be people close to them or people semi-lose to them, >> how can they start a process of breaking free of that frozen in time, peopleleasing trauma >> in their nervous system >> and start developing the ability Yeah. >> To set themselves free >> because this is a frozen part like you mentioned. This is what that means is it's happening unconsciously. So we're not even aware most of the time that we're doing it. So that means that in order for us to break the pattern, we have to bring it from the unconscious into the conscious. All that means is pausing. Pause. Slow down. Notice that. Notice what you're doing. And it might mean you're still in the moment in people pleasing. You're you're still defaulting to your usual. But what the difference is you're pausing and you're becoming aware of it in a way that you weren't before. We can't heal anything until we've become aware of it. Um so having forgiveness too. This isn't a practice of perfection. And I think often because people pleasers are perfectionists >> and perfectionists are people pleasers because it's we find safety and control in you know uh being this like perfect curated versions of ourselves and that perfectionism can seep into our healing. Why haven't I fixed this yet? >> What's wrong with me? I've been to therapy. Why didn't this work? And excuse me. And it's not it's not about fixing. It's a daily moment to moment practice of just noticing what's happening, slowing down, pausing, and being curious about it. >> Um, it takes time. It's subtle, right? >> I I think developing a a new nervous system takes time of >> Yeah. >> integrating the healing practices and lessons on a daily basis. >> Oh, totally. Yeah. >> It is a a dayby-day integration where where you said it's like a stimulus happens, you have to pause. Yeah. >> And not go back into default unconscious like nervous system reaction >> and say, okay, what was I thinking about this morning in my prayer or meditation or my reflection about how I want to show up today? >> Yeah. >> And how can I respond differently with a little bit of courage today? >> Yes. >> You know what I mean? And then doing that day by day over time, you'll start to develop a new nervous system. >> Yes. And it's very subtle. And I think sometimes we can't even we don't even realize how much we've >> um changed until we look back from years before. And I think what's really empowering to know is when the when the brain is worried about the future, the past, are they mad at me? Did I do something wrong? The breath is always here. And so that is always our portal back into the real. uh if our bodies are stuck in trauma, being with our breath, we're telling our bodies, "We're not there. We're here right now." And that's very uh accessible. We can do it at any time. >> I heard someone once say um someone in the younger generation in their 20s >> say that every time they leave a room with people in it, they're always wondering what everyone else thinks of them. >> Yeah. What is happening when we're always worried about the perception of what other people think of us after we leave a room? >> Well, I think most of the time it is after we leave. And I think that that's what's really interesting and is kind of the what I explore in my book is it's it's in the aftermath because that's when we're no longer in control of ourselves. We've had the interaction. We've said the joke. we've we've shown up in the way that we did, but once we leave the party or we leave the work event, we can't control how we're being perceived anymore. And that feels very scary to someone that has found safety through being liked >> because how do I know if they like me? How do I know if what they're thinking of me, are they talking about me to their partner right now? I don't know. And that's really scary. But to me, that's the ultimate work is surrendering control because we can't control how we're being perceived. We can control what we say, how we say it, how we treat people, but how we're being perceived is really none of our business. And that's hard. >> So, how can someone create true fulfillment and peace and harmony in their life >> knowing they can't control what other people think about them after an interaction with them? >> I think it's being okay that it won't always feel peaceful and harmonious. Okay. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. >> And that sometimes people will be mad at us. Sometimes people won't like us. >> And let's of course separate this from we're still being kind people. And when we do something wrong, we're still taking accountability for our actions. But when you are being you and you're being the person you're proud of and there's someone that misunderstands you or misperceives you, being misunderstood or misperceived is the scariest thing to a people pleaser. And I think it's the practice becomes not how can I control how I'm being perceived, but how can I move through the discomfort of being perceived? Because we're always being perceived. >> The discomfort of how we're being perceived. That's right. And it's like the unknown. Maybe they like me, maybe they don't like me. >> I can't fix it. And then that peopleleaser part comes in. Okay, next time I see them, I'm going to be super on. I'm going to be I'm going to correct their perception of me. It's just the people pleaser part that's trying to find safety in doing more and being liked. And the practice is really is really surrendering that >> instead of thinking over analyzing and overthinking and over criticizing what you did or didn't do. >> Yeah. What can someone do on a day-to-day basis to show up as their full self and not worry what everyone else thinks about them? >> I think it's looking in and saying, "Did that feel true to me?" >> And be and because like I was saying earlier, we totally lose connection with how we feel and what we think. >> We a lot of us don't even have >> the knowledge of what me what is me what does me even feel like? I talk about this in my book. I gave an example of I graduated. It's so silly, but it speaks to this feeling. I graduated college and was looking at towels at Bed Bath and Beyond, and I was like, I don't even know what my favorite color is. I don't Am I just a medley of everyone's personalities? Do I exist? Who am I when I'm not being perceived and trying to be liked? And >> so, I think it's it's really taking that moment to look in. And that just that process of looking in is the healing because we're >> we're breaking the pattern of always looking out. >> Interesting. >> You know, >> when someone is a people pleaser, >> is it more they lack confidence, they lack self-worth, >> or they lack the understanding of knowing who they truly are? >> I think those are all side effects of the deeper behavior, which is not feeling safe. >> Okay. And so when we are constantly finding safety in pleasing others because that's what we've learned to do. And by the way, most people pleasers were parent pleasers first. And that's often the learned behavior. And then I think the not knowing ourselves, having low confidence, low self-esteem is the result of doing that for such a long period of time and makes so much sense. >> Um as opposed to like those being the >> the core the core of it. Yeah. 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Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. >> I'm a new parent. >> Yes. >> 6 month old twins. Thank you. Um, how can I approach parenthood to raise conscious, healthy, you know, young women >> into becoming their greatest self, >> but also being able to be resourceful and talented and and skill driven and emotionally intelligent, >> but not please their father. >> Yeah. or their mother or be a people pleaser, but also be a respectable human being and behave in ways that >> um uplift society, not hurting people. >> Well, I think first of all, you know more about this than I do just by virtue of being a parent already and also by virtue of you asking that question, you're already >> being a thoughtful, loving parent because you're concerned about it >> 100%. I would say though, the most important skill in parenthood and in any relationship is repair. >> Being able to make a mistake and to go back to that moment and say, "Honey, I'm so sorry. I messed up. I yelled at you. That was on me. That wasn't your fault." And if you want to talk about it more, I'm here. But I just want you to know I love you. I'm here. What ends up happening is for I think for so many of us, for me 100% conflict was very big, very volatile and I would go to my room, process it on my own and then an hour later it was safe to go downstairs again and my dad would say, "So what do you want for dinner?" >> You just sweep it on the rug. >> Under the rug? >> No. >> But >> no repair? >> No. Oh, never. Never. Never. >> You apologize? not even in the vocabulary, but there there's an effect that happens. When that is happening, >> when that happens once, >> it's probably going to be fine. But when that's happening >> every week >> again and again and again and again, that is something called complex trauma, which is these micro moments of not feeling safe, not feeling loved day in and day out, day in and day out. What ends up happening for a child is we make sense of that by thinking alone in solitude in our room whatever. Okay, I did something bad cuz he was upset so I must have done something bad. And that evolves over time to I did something bad to I am bad. >> And that is that feeling of >> I I'm a bad person. Maybe I'm a bad person. Maybe I'm secretly a bad person. Maybe I'm manipulating everyone in my life into loving me. And I see this so much in my practice. It's such a secret feeling. >> Um, and so repair cuts right through that. We're not saying parents won't ever mess up or won't ever yell or aren't ever disregulated. Parents do not need to be perfect. Please don't try to be perfect. [laughter] But to have the courage and the humbleness, I guess, to >> say, "I made a mistake about you." Yeah. And I'm a person and I'm I'm so sorry. That is so healing to a child. So I would say I would say that >> repair repair is the key. So would you say there's a significant link between people who have experienced some sort of trauma and then also becoming a people pleaser? >> Yeah. Big time. Big time. specifically this this what I'm speaking to of this complex trauma where if you grew up I write about this where growing up it was like a home was like a held breath like I I learned my dad's foot moods by the sound of his footsteps on the on the stairs >> like an earthquake sometimes >> 100% like even the cadence of his breathing I I could know what mood he was in >> and h growing up in a home where you were on high high alert you or you know on edge a lot of the time. I think that's a a really common scenario where people pleasing comes through because we learn okay what can I do I can be good I can be perfect and that works sometimes and for a child that is very empowering is to focus on you know the one thing that you can do. That being said, I share a lot of different scenarios and examples of homes that kind of feed that need to please. And there are different ways that it can show up for people. Uh, but also it's not just home, it's also uh people pleasing is a really big adaptive mechanism to bullying as well. Um, it's an adaptive mechanism to living in society, whether it's your race, sex, sexuality, disability, neurode divergence. Learning to be a chameleon and morph yourself to be to feel safe. >> Yeah. >> Just is such a brilliant safety strategy and it can uh manifest in a lot of different ways. >> Yeah. You talk about these different roles that people tend to play. The peacekeeper, the performer, the caretaker, and the chameleon. Can you break down what each one of these looks like in daily life and which one were you more prominently? >> Yeah, I think of these not as personality types but more they're descriptive of patterns and so uh you know you may see yourself in all of them. I certainly do. Or you might, you know, resonate with one more than the other. Um also I just want to say there's six >> six. Do you want me to go? Yeah. What are the other? Yeah. What are the other? Go ahead. >> There's a lot. >> Yeah. Go ahead. Tell me if it if becomes too redundant. >> No. Six. Yeah. Peacekeeper. >> Peacekeeper, performer, perfectionist, >> uh chameleon, lone wolf, and caretaker are the six. Awesome. So, the peacekeeper is the harmonizer in in the family. Um is really on high alert of what how others are doing. Wants everyone to be happy. And uh really the core belief of the peacekeeper is um I can't feel safe until everything is okay and everyone likes me. And that's true of the fawn response in general, but the peacekeeper is really focused on the harmony of the environment. >> Um the perfectionist is all about uh finding safety through being perfect for a child that's often achieving. um excelling in school, excelling in sports, whatever it may look like, because a child learns, oh, if I'm really good at those things, I get like a glimpse of joy from my parents or I get a they're proud of me maybe for a split second. >> It's probably also looking good, too. It's like you fit the right way, you dress the right way, you're like >> whatever mommy and daddy's perfect little boy or girl how you look and and >> very much it can it's very much image based in that way. >> Interesting. >> And it [clears throat] can be very lonely because >> uh does anyone know me who I can't let people see me when I'm not perfect and that's a very lonely experience. Um, and then we have the performer. Uh, this one is a little bit specific and that finds a lot of safety in just being on and maybe it's being funny. Maybe it's just, you know, cracking jokes to keep everyone happy. >> But I think of I while I was writing this, I thought of just comedians growing up in really dysfunctional homes and they found safety by >> humor, >> keeping humor, keeping everyone happy in that way. also very lonely because feeling like you need to always be on and uh putting on a show it's tiring. >> We're not supposed to do that all the time. >> Um and then the caretaker uh finds value in being helpful and maybe it's because you were the oldest sibling. Maybe you had parents who were immigrants and adjusting to a new culture or maybe maybe you had a sibling or a caregiver who had a disability. You had to step up. you had to take on a parental role in some way, but that can also just be because your parents just for whatever reason weren't able to fulfill those needs. So, you stepped up to fill that role. >> Maybe now as a adult you feel attracted to >> uh partners that make you feel like you're the parent. You because it's a familiar role to you. Interesting. >> So, you you tend to mother or parent or father your your romantic partners. Very common. >> Um and then chameleon. uh loses themselves what with whoever they're with. They they morph themselves to to match the people in the room to be liked by whoever they're with. Maybe they feel this sense of am I fake because I just tend to >> adjust to to be liked by whoever I'm with. Do I know who I am? And then the lone wolf, which I kind of think of as its own little category, which is I'm not allowed to have needs, so I will just disappear. I'm not gonna ask for help. Um, I'm not going to show that I need help because my needs don't matter. M >> and you may not think of this one as people pleasing because it's it's quieter but it really is people pleasing because it's others needs matter but when it I have needs I need to I need to disappear. So >> okay >> wow >> those are the archetypes >> those are the archetypes the things that we tend tend to play out in our lives. Yes. And worth noting when those are the roles that we've had early on in our life, that's often the role unconsciously that we're going to continue playing as adults. Not because we want it, but because what feels familiar will feel safe >> and what feels unfamiliar will feel dangerous. So unconsciously, we play out these roles because we're like, I've done this before. I know how to do this. I'm good at this. And so when we try to break it, it feels quite scary simply because we don't know how to. >> It's unfamiliar. It's unfamiliar. So there's a big difference between being kind and peopleleasing or fawning. >> Yes. >> How can someone tell in real time if they're genuinely being generous or quietly betraying themselves? >> That's such a good question. I think asking, "Do I mean this is a really good starting point. Do I do I mean what I'm about to say or do? And an emotion to look out for is resentment. When we are feeling resentful in a relationship, uh it's usually a sign that there's a need that isn't being met or expressed. And so when we feel resentful, we can pay attention to it. And let's be clear, sometimes that's going to be inevitable. Like people pleasing with your boss, sometimes you got to do it. You got to get a paycheck. you have to, you know, that's that's genuine safety seeking, but people pleasing with your best friend who would totally understand, maybe not as necessary. So, it's important to discern >> context. >> Context matters. >> Um, it's it's not so black or white. But I think regardless if we are people pleasing with your boss or your best friend, we can still pause and look inward. What's happening? What need of mine isn't being met? What if I could say or do anything, what would I say or do? Okay, now given the reality, what can I say or do? Um, I would start there. >> Yeah, there's certain people that for whatever reason, I don't know if it's culturally, >> tend to say, I'm sorry, after everything. >> Like >> if they're just walking through the store, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Like they didn't say something the right way. I'm sorry for for not saying this or I'm sorry I'm late. It's just like a constant I'm sorry. >> Yes. >> Is that a similar symptom I guess of people pleasing or where does that come from? >> Yeah, absolutely. Apologizing for Well, there's there's a self-lame element to that of me existing is an inconvenience and I'm I'm so sorry for that. It's definitely a tendency of the fawn response and that I need to show you that I'm small. Of course, there's a difference between, you know, genuine apologizing and taking accountability, but just I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. When we're doing that all the time, it actually asks a lot of the other person because the other person then needs to say you're fine. It's okay. They need to make soothe your discomfort of feeling guilty. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. And so that's why I would say people pleasing isn't really pleasing many people. It's it's tiring for you. It's tiring for the other person because it requires the other person to give a lot of reassurance. And there's a difference between validation and reassurance which I can certainly get into. But >> what is the difference between validation and reassurance? Well, reassurance seeking as a behavior is very common for people pleasers. Uh, it can sound like, "Are you mad at me? Do you still love me? Do you think I look pretty in this? Are we okay?" It's it's a lot of uh yes or no questions. And the other person might say, "No, I'm not mad at you. Yes, I still love you. Yes, I think you're beautiful." And temporarily, it feels like, "Okay, we're good then." >> But then it comes right back >> every day or every week. It's like, why? >> It comes right back. Why do people need that reassurance constantly? >> Because we're not getting to the root emotion beneath it, the anxiety, the insecurity, the feeling of deficiency. Versus seeking validation might say to the other person, well, we're first we're we're slowing down. We're saying, I'm feeling insecure right now. Hm, what triggered this? Okay, let me think about this. Like, what what's happening here? We're we're looking inward first, but we're having a conversation. So, that might sound like, "Hey, I've been feeling kind of distant from you in our relationship, and I just wanted to check in about it. I wanted to see if you were feeling it, too." And it's it's a conversation. You're not asking the other person to diminish the anxiety for you. You're letting both people share their emotions. Of course, the other person might say might give some reassurance. Oh my gosh, I had No, I'm not mad at you at all. I'm I'm so sorry you thought that, but it it's a slowing down with the emotion. Um, but it's really what we were talking about, being able to tolerate discomfort, being able to, >> you know, be with our own discomfort when that anxiety gets triggered and let it pass a little bit before acting on it. >> How does someone create their own self-reassurance and own self validation without seeking it from their partner, friends, or family constantly? >> Yeah. And it's a balance because it's okay to need people at the same time. It's okay to want to hear nice things from [laughter] the people we love. >> Uh but I think it's the the steps that we're taking. I think it's it's first pausing. Put the phone down. Don't analyze the texts or wonder, oh my gosh, where did I go wrong here? >> Allow yourself to be in some quiet. Identify what does feel soothing to you. Is it deep breaths? Is it taking a walk? Is it taking a bath? Is it cooking yourself a nice meal? Identifying what does feel regulating for your nervous system? >> Um, and reflecting what what's triggered this? What's happening here? Is this a pattern? Is this a one-off thing? Spending some time with it. Maybe it's journaling out what happened or maybe it's recording a voice memo as if you were talking to someone about it. Um and then yeah of course we can have a conversation with the person but I think it requires some reflection first. Yeah. >> What would you say is the most powerful emotion that most of us are ignoring? >> Shame. >> Um shame and distinguishing that from guilt as emotions I think is so important for people pleasers. Do you think most people are ignoring a shame that they feel? [snorts] >> I think people pleasers are ignoring resentment and anger and I think people pleasers feel a lot of shame. >> Ah >> um where do you want me to go? You tell me. >> Why do why do people pleasers feel so much shame? We feel a lot of shame because there's an inherent belief that everything we do is wrong and not enough because remember the fawn response finds safety in doing more. >> And so if we were to believe that we are doing more I mean sorry if we were to believe we are doing enough that would kind of feel a little scary to this part of ourselves that has learned I need to always try more and try harder. Uh it's it's challenging that core belief a little bit. So shame is really important because uh well self we've learned to use self-lame as a coping mechanism >> and we need to always make ourselves smaller. We need to always make ourselves disappear. We have this like I said that that sort of chronic feeling of I'm bad or I'm doing something wrong. People don't like me. There's just this constant critical voice that's happening for people pleasers. M >> um and I think recognizing that that voice is there, but it's not always true. It's rarely true. Our inner voice is a tape recorder. It's a tape recorder of all the things we've heard growing up from society. >> And so to have awareness of that voice without immediately believing it is the most powerful tool. >> Yeah. What is one sentence someone can say >> to set a boundary without feeling guilty? Oh, >> whether it be an email, whether it be in person, whether it be like, how can you say something to set a boundary? >> Yeah. >> To not feel resentful by pleasing and giving in. >> Yeah. >> But also, >> without feeling guilty. >> Well, I'm going to give you an annoying answer, which is that you might feel guilty >> simply because it's you're doing something new. And so if people pleasing has been our baseline, saying no will feel aggressive just because we've never said no before. >> You feel like you're a bad person. >> Yes. >> When you say no, you're a bad person. >> Let's define what is guilt. And then I promise I will give a direct question answer. Guilt says I've done something wrong. >> I've done something that is out of alignment with my values and my morals. And so I think knowing what guilt even is is so important because when you feel guilty, let's say, hm, let's say you were out with friends and you don't feel like drinking that night and so you were like, "No, I'm not going to drink." And then your friends like, "Come on, have some fun. You're so lame." So then you feel guilty for saying, "I'm not drinking." Well, pause. Are you doing something bad? Are you doing something morally wrong in this moment? Absolutely not. You are just choosing to make your own decision and your friends disagree, but >> you're not doing something morally wrong. >> What ends up happening with people pleasers, we take other people's discomfort and we absorb that as guilt. But it's not guilt. It's just hypervigilance to other people's dissatisfaction. Um, and so I think being able to actually discern when when is it when am I doing something wrong and when is it actually just a fleeting moment of discomfort that I need to sit with? >> Yeah. >> You know, [snorts] [sighs] >> takes practice. It takes a lot of practice. >> It does. Should I answer your question? >> Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> I guess I can do that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I think it's super important to start. You mentioned earlier that when you first started saying no to people, it didn't go well. I thought that was really interesting or that like people because people were so used to you being the yes man. >> It's so important to start with people that feel safe. >> It's so important with anything trauma related and in trauma healing. We have to start small and safe. Otherwise, we're going to shock our nervous system. For example, if you were to set a boundary with your like >> your parents or something, >> your parent that you have a very rocky relationship with, they're not going to have a good reaction. >> You may not be in their lives anymore. You know what I mean? It's like >> it might be destructive. And so what would happen is you would set set that boundary. They would have a huge reaction and then your nervous system would be like, "This is why I people please. What are we doing? Go back to what I know." Yeah. >> So, it's really important to identify relationships that feel safe like your best friend or your loving partner or if you have a close sibling relationship and it's even can even be a shared practice. You can let them in on what you're working on. >> I like that. Yeah. >> I've been working on something. I'm really trying to be more honest in my relationships because I feel like I kind of I'm not letting people in. I'm not show I'm not being authentic and I end up saying yes when I don't mean it and then I feel upset with myself and >> I just want you to know that that's something I'm working on. Um and then >> with the right person they're going to be really proud of you for saying no or for expressing a need >> the right person. Yeah. >> With the right person. But it's really important to start with the right person. And I think the way context is everything instead of just saying to your best friend who maybe you've had some resentments because you say yes too much or whatever >> and just saying you know what I'm going to start saying no to you when you want me to do this. You can't start with that context. It's got to be like >> you know I've really been discovering that I've been feeling this kind of frustration when I do this in life with people. >> Yes. >> And I want to be more in tune with myself in all my relationships >> and I love to practice this together. Like I don't want you to say yes to me on something you don't want to do. Also, like I want you to feel like >> you can say no if you don't want to go out to the bar and drink with me. >> It goes both ways, >> you know? It's like Yeah. >> Is this something you'd be open to practicing with me? >> Yes. Yes. >> So that I can improve in my life and this and that. >> Yeah. >> It's the context of it. >> It's definitely context. And I don't know about you, but in relationships that I can be really honest >> and the other person can be honest with me, I feel the closest to those friends because I'm never wondering are they saying something they don't mean. >> I'm always trusting that if they are upset, they'll tell me. >> And that's a big practice for people pleasers as well is to not mind readad so much. Oh man, >> because we often are like, well, maybe they meant this by this and they had kind of they didn't laugh that hard in my jokes, so maybe and and so we end up creating these scenarios that don't exist. >> Of course, if we've actively harmed someone, we we should be the one to initiate that interaction, but >> allow them and trust that they will come to you if there's something to be spoken about. >> That's a hard one. >> That's a hard one. You know those moments when you're ordering everything to your house from groceries, gear, random things you didn't even realize you needed until the last minute? 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All rights reserved. >> In your New York time bestselling book, Are You Mad at Me? You say on page 159 that pain travels through families until someone is ready to face it. >> How does trauma pass through our DNA >> through our families? Is this DNA or is this more just learned behavior in the environment? >> It's actually both. It's actually both. It's actually passed down uh in our DNA through these genetic markers and through these genetic codes. And of course it's also uh how we are raised is going to be unconsciously how we will raise our children if we decide to have them >> until someone becomes conscious of the patterns that have been happening and goes through the emotional labor of breaking that pattern. So >> one person has to say >> I'm going to break generational trauma. Yeah, >> I'm going to be the one to go through hell >> for however long it takes >> to regulate my nervous system. >> Yeah. >> To heal, to have conscious conversations, to have the courage to speak up and use my voice and to pass down a new language. >> Yeah. >> And new environment to the people in my life. And it takes a lot of work. >> And it won't be perfect. And I think that is >> what I see a lot as well is this pressure. Yes. to Oh, well, if I'm a if I'm a cycle breaker, I need to be perfect >> at breaking them. >> It's going to be messy. >> No. And messy. >> That's That's a really That's a high standard to hold yourself to. And it's not human. We're going to mess up. >> I'm sure my kids future kids will go to therapy for something that I did. I'm sure. [laughter] But I always >> You're a therapist. >> Yeah, of course. And I'm a person. And I'm sure that what I always like to say is I think a parent's weakness becomes a child's strength. Like there are things about my parents that I'm actively wanting to break. I want to be >> practice being a non-reactive parent. I want to practice taking accountability and owning up to my mistakes. And I'm sure there will be areas where I miss the mark and my future children will, you know, break that pattern. So we can't be perfect. Being perfect is damaging. Does that mean you're never being upset? You're never showing sadness? That's really damaging as well. So >> striving to be the perfect person is not is not the goal. >> Just doing our best. Exactly. We're just doing our best. >> What's the one thing you've learned through all the research in therapy and your studies and practices that you realize that you still need work on as a person? >> Oh, so much. A lot. I would say my inner critic could use some softening still. 100%. I I still I have such I've always had very very critical thoughts as I've said innervoice is a tape recorder you know I picked up on that but I think the practice that I'm working on and continue to work on is it's not about um erasing that voice but changing my relationship to it. That voice is still there because that little girl inside of me is still there. >> And so if I were to say what's wrong with me? Why don't I have a softer inner dialogue? I'm really saying, "What's wrong with this little girl? She shouldn't be here." And so to have acceptance that this voice is here, but to just not believe it so much. But I can get very very hard on myself. I can hold myself to a very perfectionistic standard that's I know consciously is unfair. Um, but just to give some space between that voice and myself and recognize that voice is just trying to protect me. Because if I'm perfect, maybe I won't be criticized or judged or misunderstood. It's such a self-protective voice. >> So creating just some distance between that voice, there you are again. Hello. >> Yeah. >> When the wounded girl in you um is feeling criticized or overwhelmed, >> what is she saying to you? >> I think just like stop taking life so seriously. It's not that deep. Uh yeah, I think zoom out a little bit. Uh anytime I then like I'll meditate for 10 minutes or I'll go for a walk in nature, I'm like what was I worried about again? It's just >> thoughts are very all consuming when they're loud and they're very believable. And that's why the practice of awareness is everything because we we're going to believe the fearful thoughts way more than the loving thoughts in our mind. >> Why is that? >> Because we're hardwired for safety. And so we're going to uh pay more attention to those thoughts because we think there's a threat of some sort. And so, uh, the loving thoughts feel very hard to believe, especially if our history is rooted in, you know, if we have a trauma history. So, it's just it's just human. Just makes sense. >> How can we learn to have more loving thoughts and believe them versus critical thoughts and believe those? >> There's two types of thoughts in my mind. There's like that unconscious voice, that subconscious voice that just chatters. It's that background noise that we hear all day. And those are often our critical thoughts. It's just >> Mhm. >> just there. >> Versus the there's a more conscious voice, a more intuitive voice. Do you know what I mean? >> Sure. >> Of when we're like actually consciously speaking to ourselves. If I'm like, okay, I'm hearing this voice and I'm saying to it, I'm safe. It's okay. It's everything's okay right now. I think those are two different voices. Um, so I I really use a lot in my clinical work, um, internal family systems as an approach of viewing this >> Dick Schwarz, right? >> Uh-huh. viewing this voice as a part. And I talk about this in my book of this people pleaser is a part of you that has found safety through pleasing and being perfect and good. We're not trying to get rid of this voice and this part. We're trying to actually create a relationship to it so it knows you don't need to work so hard anymore. >> Yeah. Yeah, we had Frank Anderson on here and he's, you know, kind of in partnership with Dick Schwarz or worked with him for a long time about the internal family systems. And for those who aren't aware of what this is, what is internal family systems >> and how does it make us feel more safe understanding that there's all these parts of us? >> Yes. On a broad level, it's that we are made up of a bunch of different parts that all play very important roles and functions that are all trying to keep us safe. These are like psychological parts, emotional parts. >> That's a good question. It's it's complex. It's both. It's all of it. Um, it's emotional, it's psychological, it's biological as well, but I think it's it's that these parts play a role in the system that makes up you, and they're all working hard to keep you safe. Um, but what ends up happening I think is when specifically through how I view the people pleaser part in are you mad at me is when we are stuck in this old way of being. This people pleaser part overcompensates and works so hard and is so exhausted because it thinks it needs to. And so the healing is as us true our true selves, the wise, grounded, regulated versions of ourselves to create a relationship with that part. Thank you so much for working so hard. >> I actually don't need you right now. You can sleep. I'll need you again, but I don't need you in this moment. We're not erasing it, >> but we're creating a relationship, too. >> Yeah. >> Speaking of relationships, you've had uh coming up, it'll be eight years sober for you. you were talking about. >> What is your relationship like with yourself now 8 years sober versus what it was when you were drinking alcohol as a coping mechanism? >> Totally. It's funny. I always say I don't feel like worthy of using the word sober because I didn't consider myself to get to a point of addiction. So, I almost feel like I don't deserve that [snorts] word or whatever or because I don't have a distinct date. I have just like a time frame that I stopped drinking. I'm like, do I am I worthy? Do I am I allowed to use that word? But yes, I I by definition, I guess I am. >> Um, >> so you weren't you weren't considering yourself an alcoholic before? >> Well, I think I just had I hadn't been drinking long enough, I think, to Sure. >> But when I would drink, it would be very black or white, like we were talking about of I was either not drinking or Yeah. or I was going all out even when I didn't intend to. And it's worth noting I grew up my dad was very much an addict with not just alcohol and my whole like I have very early memories of that. So that was my image of substances even though I consciously knew I don't want to repeat that. I don't want to do that. >> I I have this black or white tendency in me. And so a lot has changed in that I'm just first of all so used to not drinking at this point where I'm like why would I why would I want to go back to it? >> But I think for me drinking was uh I was so in control during the day. Um I struggled with eating. I struggled with overex exercising. Uh I was very perfectionistic regimented. that was just my way of coping with a lot of the unprocessed memories that I hadn't yet faced. Um, and drinking was kind of finally I can like release and let go of control. >> Um, but it was really triggering for me. Like a lot would come out, a lot of wounds would come out. All my fears, all my anxieties would just kind of pour out of me when I would drink. >> Wow. Um, again because I wasn't I was going hard, you know, like it was it wasn't just like a tasteful glass of wine with dinner. It was college, too, which I think is also complicated. It's like this context where it's fine. It's fine to be doing that >> society. It's not even fine. It's celebrated. >> Totally. >> Let's go out and party and do this or whatever, right? >> And you kind of like get ripped on if you're not doing that. If you're like if you're in that world. So, um I but I got a really bad concussion in college. Really? >> Yeah. Um and that I really feel I feel that was like a pivotal point in my spiritual process. I think that was meant to happen. Um because it forced me to stop everything stopped. I couldn't drink. I had to sit there in silence in darkness and it was a it was a pretty long recovery for me. >> Really? >> Yeah. Um and so that was really the first point where I stopped drinking in college and then after that the drinking just tapered. I never really went back to heavy drinking after that. Um and then yeah, eventually I was just like I actually just don't even want this at all. So it just stopped. How does someone learn how to not use drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism to release and relax and let loose and reveal themselves >> but actually be loose and free without drugs and alcohol or substances. >> Yeah. >> To be able to express themselves >> throughout the day. >> It's funny. I think whether it's drugs, alcohol, shopping, any sort of behavior where you feel you lose control of yourself. Binge eating there there's so many and again like with each of these it gets clinically I would view each of them differently and it it would get more complicated but >> there's probably a root wound under that's under underneath each one of these tendencies. Correct. >> Right. in that we're finding safety through this controlbased behavior where if if I'm if I'm honing in on this behavior, I don't need to feel the discomfort. I don't need to feel the anxiety. I don't need to face what is bubbling beneath the surface. Um, what ends up happening is we have this uncomfortable motion rise up and so we immediately grab a drink or we scroll or we shop or we overeat, whatever the the coping mechanism may be, >> porn, whatever it might be. Yeah, >> absolutely. Sex addiction, it's it it's all to me and I think of it quite similarly similarly but different of course. Yes. Um, and so I think the it's a layered clinical approach, but I would think of it as what during the day, how can you slowly increase that tolerance for feeling that discomfort throughout your day and feeling safe throughout the day so that the impulse control becomes less you have more control over your impulses? How do you start to feel safe when you feel uncomfortable >> with that pain inside or that >> Well, safety is slow and I don't I think we often think of well if I'm present I'll that means I'll feel good all the time. That's not true at all. I think presence often means >> feeling kind of >> And am I allowed to say that on your show? Yeah. Super bad word. I know it's really rebellious. Um, I think it's being with >> Are you mad at me for saying that? >> Yeah, very. [laughter] >> It's being with what is. And sometimes being present means >> being with that inner critic. It means being with agitation in your body. >> Of course, it's really important to take in that discomfort in bite-sized pieces. >> Yes. >> So that it feels safe to do so. But >> it it don't always feel good. >> It doesn't always feel good. You said that we can't change our past but we can shift our internal experience or interpretation of the past. >> And so what would you say then is the first step to shifting the internal feeling >> of being unsafe. >> I think it starts in the body. I and I for people pleasers for perfectionists it can get very intellectual. >> Yes. >> What should I be telling myself? What are the exact words that I should be saying to myself? And of course selft talk is very powerful but I think it's from the neck down. >> Uh it's it's slowing down our bodies. It's even just elongating the exhale sends immediate safety signals to our body. If inhale for four, exhale for six, it's immediately telling the body, you're good. We're safe here. >> And again, that doesn't mean it feels good. >> Uh it can feel kind of discouraging. Well, I took a deep breath. I still have I still feel anxious, but good for you. You're noticing the anxiety that's there and you're allowing yourself to acknowledge it. That is such a huge step. So, >> it's big. >> Yeah. >> If you could give your younger self one gentle reminder, what would it be? >> How young are we talking? [laughter] >> The time the time you feel like you needed that reminder the most? I would say you're doing enough. You're doing enough. I think I internalized uh the message early on. I just need to always be doing more and making, you know, achieving more and pleasing more and caretaking more and you're doing enough. And something that's actually, I think, important to mention with that people pleaser voice is when we have accomplishments, when we get an accomplishment done as a people pleaser, it's really common to feel kind of relief instead of joy of like I I did it. I I I did it. But we're not actually that happy with ourselves because we always expected ourselves. It was always our obligation to have to do it. Yeah. >> And so I think just that that message of enoughness can feel kind of cliche even, but it's so important because we remember we find safety in doing more. And so for just this to be enough is very powerful, you know. >> Yeah, you are enough. >> As a leading psychotherapist, what is your ultimate message to all people pleasers out there? >> Just one just one message. What would be your message >> I would say which is a chapter in my book nothing is personal nothing is permanent and nothing is perfect where we can uh remember those three pillars I think that's >> that's a good place to start >> good message yeah >> your book is called are you mad at me how to stop focusing on what others think and start living for you uh it's got a lot of different praise and a lot of great resources and tools to help people on their journey So, if you feel like you are some of this is resonating with you and you want some more tools, make sure to get a copy of Meg's book, Are You Mad at Me? Um, you're also all over social media, Meg Joseph Josephson on social media, Tik Tok, Instagram, Substack, >> which is called Peace of Mind, uh, at megosphen.com. Uh, I've got two final questions for you. This has been really inspiring. Is there anything First off, is there anything that we've missed that you feel like you would like to share? >> I don't think so. Okay. >> Covered good ground. >> Yeah, really good ground. Uh, this is called the three truths. It's a hypothetical scenario. So, imagine Meg, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on this earth >> in the f in the future. >> And you live the life of your dreams from this moment until that last day. >> But for whatever reason, on the last day, you have to take all of your work with you. So, this content, your books, and anything you create, it's gone. It doesn't exist. >> Doesn't exist on earth anymore. Hypothetical. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But on the final day, you get to leave behind three lessons, >> three truths that you would leave behind to the world. And this is all we would have of your content. What would be those three truths for you on that last day? >> Oh, well, I'm sure these truths were said by so many people that came before me that [clears throat] taught me those truths. So mine would just be paraphrasing what I've learned from other people. >> But uh a huge just my core principle is just that everything's fleeting >> and impermanent whether it's an uncomfortable sensation in the body or whether things are going really well. This is impermanent. uh and just to acknowledging that impermanence allows us to enjoy the good stuff and move through the challenging stuff with more ease. >> Uh second one I would say is this is something that I'm I'm [clears throat] saying this because it's just something I'm working on is just opening my heart. Be open. Um, I think it's really easy to be close off our energy for self-preservation and protection and, you know, prevent being seen and just practice being open. These are all things I tell myself. So, I guess that's what I'm imparting is what I'm telling myself. >> And then perhaps the last one would be I guess another uh, of course, uh, non-attachment. And of course many people before me have have expressed this but uh I just think so much of my personal suffering and a lot of our suffering comes from gripping on to our expectations of what this moment should be or what we you know think we should be doing or what we should be feeling or shouldn't be feeling and just practicing letting the moment roll off of us. Um >> knowing that it will change and that it is impermanent. >> Exactly. >> Is a constant practice for me. >> That's it. My my therapist says high engagement, low attachment. >> I love that. >> You know, be fully engaged and like >> passionate and excited about what you want to create, but >> not attached to it. >> Don't get attached to it. Absolutely. [snorts] >> Absolutely. It's a thing. Meg, I want to acknowledge you for the journey you've been on and I know you have gone through a lot growing up and you talk about it in your your book about your experience with your father and different challenges you faced >> and I acknowledge you for using your life to heal and to study so you can help others overcome their pain and trauma because >> it's a lot when a child goes through uncertainties on a a daily or weekly basis. Yeah. >> And the fact that you have made it your life's mission to serve others is something I really acknowledge in you. >> Oh, make me cry. Thank you. >> So, I appreciate the work you do. >> Thank you. >> My final question is, what's your definition of greatness? >> I've been thinking about this knowing that you would ask it to me. Um I think well I think greatness is uh it's so individually defined and it will look different for everyone and I think that is greatness is knowing what does greatness mean to me. Um but I think for me greatness is presence. >> Yeah. and being able to be with whatever is happening through the hard stuff, through the positive stuff, experiencing it because it's just means I'm alive. >> Yeah. >> Is being able to to live it. So >> there you go. >> I would say that >> me, thanks for being here. Appreciate you >> so much. [music] Appreciate it. Thank you. >> People will say to me, Dr. K, I I have no motivation. That's incorrect. You have a ton of motivation. You have a ton of motivation to stay home. You have a ton of motivation to play video games. There is [music] such a powerful drive to return to the couch. So identity shapes motivation. He is a psychiatrist.