Podcast: A Conversation with Benjamin Haddad, France’s Minister Delegate for Europe

This podcast [music] is brought to you by the IIEA, sharing ideas, shaping policy. And he will be speaking to us. I'm going to do the introductions, but before I introduce Minister Haddad, let me introduce myself. My name is Orla Quinn. I'm the interim director general here in the institute. And I'm the former secretary general of the Department of Enterprise, Trade, and Employment. So, before I do the formal introduction, maybe just some of the house rules. Um Our conversation today is online. We have audience online, and it's being recorded. So, again, just to to keep that in mind. If people have questions, the minister will say some opening remarks, and then we will have some questions. I have some, and you may have some. If you're on Zoom uh joining us, you can put in your question on Zoom. And um we'll we'll work that through as the event continues. We're very, very pleased to welcome you today, Minister. Uh it's a particular honor for us, and as we host the uh Ireland hosts the EU presidency, it's a great opportunity for us to really focus in on the many issues uh facing Europe today. And Minister, I know you yourself have been both a member of a think tank uh and a political researcher. So, let me just formally introduce you to to the group. Um as I say, you're a graduate of the Paris Institute of Political Studies. And has Minister has been a researcher in international relations, which he has taught. And indeed uh worked for 7 years in think tanks in Washington, including a senior director of the Atlantic Council's Europe Center. Uh up to 2022. Uh he's the Minister of Le Parti des Paradoux, La République des Trump et la fin des illusions européennes. So, again, that's a particular topic that we might touch on Minister in terms of uh the what you you would see as European strategic autonomy and sovereignty in the face of new geopolitical threats and US withdrawal perhaps or certainly a diminution. Um the Minister was the first national secretary of the UMP party from 2011 to 2014. He has represented the La République en Marche party in Washington and he was elected to the National Assembly in June 2022. He's a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and the European Affairs Committee. And on July 2024, the Minister was elected in the 14th constituency of Paris and on the 21st of September in 2024, he was appointed Minister Delegate for Europe. Minister, you're most welcome and I will pass the floor to you. >> Thank you. Thank you very much, Dr. Quinn. It's great to be here. Uh I the Institute for International European Affairs here in in Dublin. I just landed here in in Dublin um less than an hour ago for 2 days that are going to be I think very important uh with my colleagues of the General Affairs Council, the Minister for European Affairs. We'll be touching upon mostly the negotiations of the multiannual financial framework which is, you know, an acronym one of these many EU acronyms that you will hear in the next few months uh and behind what will be most likely very technocratic debate full of issues of governance and accounting uh first and foremost, it will be a deeply political and strategic conversation about the future of Europe and where we want to bring Europe in the next 10 years. The MFF is the budget of the European Union for the years 2028 to 2034. This is where we decide how much we will spend together and invest in agriculture and food security, in cohesion and territories, but of course in defense, space, AI, technological innovation, the green transition, all these areas that are critical for a continent to invest in its future, to reduce its dependencies, and to act and stand on its own two feet as a power on the world stage at a time where we see Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine, and Russia's hybrid warfare against our European democracies. The questions arising about the future of the transatlantic relationship, and the trade pressure coming from China destabilizing our markets and companies. None of this, I'm absolutely be convinced, and this is the message that I will convey to my colleagues, that our Europe, our internal market of 450 million people, our talents, innovators, companies, startups, is an incredible asset for us to defend a different voice, and to defend our own interests and values on the world stage. But for this, we need to strengthen it. We need to defragment our internal market that still today is too complex, filled with too many regulatory barriers between countries. We'll discuss this maybe later in the conversation, but this is at the heart of the competitiveness agenda, the Draghi agenda that uh we're um pushing the saving and investment union, simplification, investment, everything that we're doing to make sure that all the savings of European citizens that cross the Atlantic every year to fund US market, stay in Europe to support their own companies. European preference, that will be a key part of this debate both on the MFF and on all the text that we're pushing today at uh the uh European level. The idea that uh when we're facing subsidized overcapacities from China coming to destabilize our companies on EVs, steel, chemicals, and so many sectors, when we see the Americans, and they didn't have to wait for Donald Trump, by the way, to do the Inflation Reduction Act, the Small Business Act, to do protectionism and support their own companies, and we should not be naive. And also defend our own and support our own innovators and champions. Invest massively into our security, into our space sector, into our AI, all the areas that are absolutely critical for our strategic autonomy. I outlined this very briefly because I really want to share that behind the conversations that we will have in the next uh few months, it's really these issues, these geopolitical and strategic issues for the future of our continent, that will be at the heart of the choices that uh we will make. And in this respect, I think that this Irish presidency of the European Council comes at an extremely critical time. At a juncture where the choices that we'll make will really determine how we survive and how we assert ourselves as a power. As you know, I uh I'm I'm a a member of uh President Macron's party. I uh was um appointed 2 years ago by a prime minister that I think some of you have heard in this country called Michel Barnier, who has also been a good friend and mentor to me. Uh and ever since 2017, we've put at the heart with President Macron of European policy this idea of European sovereignty. This idea that Europeans should be able to defend their own values, their own identity, their own security. And I think sometimes some of the terms that we used European preference, defense and security, uh standing up, you know, sometimes on our own, uh on to assert our own interests were a bit taboo at the time. And you can see now a clear historical acceleration of these of these terms and of these of these issues. So, this is really what will be at stake, and I want to say I'm really glad to be able to have this exchange with you. You were kind enough to mention that I personally come from the think tank world. I spent 7 years in think tanks in in the United States working on these issues of European strategic autonomy and the future of the transatlantic relationship. I'm convinced of the role that think tanks can and must play in our policy conversation to build the bridge between the world of ideas, the world of academia, the world of expertise, and the world of policy making and decision making. So, thank you again for your invitation. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for that, Minister. You've touched on so many things that we can talk about. Um I think it's true, and you've pointed out, I don't think Europe has ever been at such a a stage of geopolitical uncertainty, and and Europe, as you say rightly, um establishing itself um to play that leading role. Um Ireland, I suppose, in terms of our presidency, we focused on security, values, and competitiveness. Maybe if I touch on security first, um because it's obviously hugely important, um and the the role of the EU in terms of that common defense. Could you just say a word how easy, how difficult it is to build those alliances across Europe? >> Mhm. No, thank you. First, I will say, I mean, we will talk about security, but it's interesting because when you look at security and competitiveness and you could add values, I think actually these concepts are deeply intertwined. When we talk about supporting our innovators and our AI startups, when we think about uh building the public investment that we need to be able to leverage private investment to support our own competitiveness and innovation ecosystems, that's now a security issue. You look at all these areas which we thought were sort of devoid of politics, trade, technology, energy, we see now that all these interdependencies have been weaponized and are now used as tools of and levers of power. And so, when we talk about integrating our internal market, when we talk about protecting our companies from unfair competition coming from China, destabilizing our our sectors, we're also talking about our own security and our own strategic autonomy. And this is why these debates about uh the Draghi report or uh the multiannual financial framework that we will have are also closely tied to our security agenda. But to respond really to your point, clearly I think there's been in the last few years a deep strategic awakening of Europeans. You know, I spent, as I mentioned, a few years in the US and I was there during the whole first Trump term. And what struck me at the time was the deep level of denial that you could see from many Europeans, basically thinking, "Okay, let's just wait it out. It's a bit of an accident of history. He was elected because Hillary Clint- Clinton ran a bad campaign or whatever." And then we'll go back to the traditional transatlantic relationship afterwards. And I think you see, a few years after that that now there's a deeper sense that something more structural is going on. And by the way, if you look at the other side of the Atlantic, it's Barack Obama who talked about pivoting to Asia, who called Europeans free riders of American power. It's Joe Biden who continued the protectionist trends of the Trump administration with the Inflation Reduction Act. And so the lesson we must draw from this is continue to engage with our US allies and partners, of course, but at the same time take matters into our own hand and take the steps to be able to invest in our own security. This is what first we're doing at the national level. So if you look at France, over the two terms of the Macron presidency we'll have doubled the defense spending of France. And even right now as we're struggling to reduce deficit and public spending and we will have a budget soon that will continue to tackle um public spending, we're continuing to increase the defense spending of our country. We're actually accelerating the deployment of our military bill to go even quicker in the increase in defense spending. But of course all of this makes sense if we do it also at the European level. Our neighbors, Germany, Poland and others are also increasing the defense spending, but we need to invest in cooperation, industrial cooperation in defense. I think a model that we've seen with what the European Commission has laid out with the SAFE plan is a is a very interesting and uh and pragmatic one. What is it? Basically, you pull together resources at the European level. 150 billion euros for the SAFE plan. We lay out areas, domains in which we have shortages in capacities, ammunition, long-range strikes, drones, cyber, air defense, etc. And then you give the financial incentives to countries and companies to procure, to cooperate cross-border to be able to invest. And this will be one of the key debates that we will have as well in the MFF in the multiannual financial framework. Uh the second pillar of that budget, the first pillar to make it quick and not too technocratic, but the first pillar is what we call the the national plans. It's where you have agriculture and cohesion. And the second one will be the competitiveness fund. This is really an innovation of this new budget. This is why it's so important. And this is where you will fund AI, defense, space, and here again work on cooperating together. One key condition for us in this debate will be, and I mentioned it, European preference. The idea, very basic idea, but I think common sense, that European taxpayer money should come to support European companies, European industries, and actors, and foster greater cooperation between them. And one last point on the security awakening because I'm talking about financing, I'm talking about uh industry and initiatives. But the key test of this, of course, is our support for Ukraine. This is the first security test today for our Europeans. And here again, you know, I remember very well where we were a year and a half ago when we had the meeting in the Oval Office between President Trump, Vice President Pence, and President Zelenskyy. And at the time, it was quite common to hear in the commentary that uh that was it. Um America and Russia would negotiate to deal without Europeans being anywhere, that Ukraine would be forced into capitulation, and that we just passively stand by while something that is, first and foremost, a security issue for Europeans was being handled by others. And we refused this. We actually stepped up, took care of our own security. Uh we created the coalition of the willing, first to shape the security guarantees for Ukraine after a potential peace deal, but also to coordinate our support for for Ukraine. Today, almost all of the support for Ukraine comes from Europeans. The 90 billion package that was finalized by the European Council a few months ago, we've already I think delivered about 11 billion out of these 90 billion euros. That gives visibility to Ukrainians for the next couple of years, both economically and militarily. Some of the the military announcements like the permission to um a product uh produce, sorry, Storm Shadows and SCALP missiles under licensing, you know, things like this that will give also Ukrainians the means to to defend themselves. So, I think this has been, you know, still a a test of resilience and long-term commitment, but this has shown really that there's been a shift, I think, in the last few years of Europeans taking security and defense matters seriously and and stepping up to defend, you know, our own interests. >> You You've talked there, Minister, um just the about the MFF and that balance and of course it's going to be a there will be very difficult compromises and I know certainly Ireland and France would have a huge interest in the cap vis-à-vis defense uh spending and I'm just thinking from the Irish presidency, what are your hopes and expectations for those negotiations? >> So, as I mentioned, the next few months will be really critical. And um we've said that our objective is to build the conditions to get to a deal by the end of the year. >> Yeah. >> But of course that depends on building consensus and having a budget that's up to the investment needs and ambitions that we lay out. If you look at the Draghi report, it's very clearly showing the lack of public and private investment, I think around 800 billion euros a year that Europe suffers compared to the United States. And we need that public capital to be able to create leverage and create momentum to bring in private capital to support uh these ecosystems. First, I think we should not oppose you know, the traditional policies policies like agriculture and investment into technology or or defense and space. Because if you look at the world we live in, all the relationships are being weaponized today and they become the tools of power. Uh Do I want to put into jeopardy my food security uh when, you know, yesterday we did the same for energy? Thinking energy is just a commodity that you trade on a market between uh clients and and different markets and then you realize it's become a a tool and leverage of power and of geopolitical influence. So, I think the the support for our agriculture is key for our food security. But of course, you also need to have the resources to invest in our competitiveness, everything that that we mentioned. And so, one issue that will be key to us in these negotiations in in next few months is to solve that financial equation. If we get a bit into the details, the today, the European budget is funded at about 90% by national contributions. So, it's member states who send a a check uh or generally a wire transfer every year to uh the European Commission. If we want to increase the level of ambition of our budget and of our investment, it cannot rely solely on national contributions. And actually, Ireland and France share the fact that they're net contributors to the budget. So, you know, we look at this also very closely. The only way to resolve that equation is to build the own resources for the European Union to be able to balance this. And the initial proposal by the Commission, you actually had a package of own resource. It's a good first step. It's about 60 billion euros a year. So, we need to look at this and debate it. Uh maybe even propose others. The European Parliament has proposed other uh own resources like tax on uh digital services, online gambling, crypto. Uh but we need to have this conversation and we need to have an ambitious package of own resource to be able to close the the budget. Because otherwise we would to be honest, we will not be up to that challenge. We will not be up to the historical moment that we're facing. We'll get into this conversation by doing deep cuts of hundreds of billions of euros when we need we need to invest to Everyone agrees that we need to invest in AI and space and defense or in the green transition. By the way, something that I should mention when we had a a terrible summer of fires in uh the south of France, unfortunately. So, once again, I think these technical discussions on building the own resources will be absolutely critical to be able to adopt the budget by the end of the year and really be up to uh the investment needs and ambitions of our continent. >> Could you say a word about Draghi? Some of the discussions we've had here in the institute that's there's great disappointment that Draghi hasn't been implemented to the extent that it should be. It's less than 10% I think at this stage. Just where can the drive or the push come um to actually really focus on com- competitiveness? >> Yeah. First, I think you have seen a shift in how we operate. But you're clearly right that it's too slow. And we need to deliver in a much quicker and much more ambitious way. Um between 10 to 10 and 15% of the Draghi conclusions have been uh uh implemented. And if you look at the details, they're mostly the ones on defense and on setting up a defense industry and the defense funds. We started doing a push towards simplification and I think that's good because it's a it's the balance that you find between keeping the same level of ambition, for example, on the green transition, everything that we've done with the green deal, but doing it with pragmatism and common sense, and working closely with our companies to make sure that we can accompany them in this way. I'll give you a specific example. Yesterday, I was in Lille in the south of France, and I met with lots of SMEs and and and French companies, and a lot of them are doing a lot of investment and efforts because it's it's also in their own business interest to invest in their decarbonization and technology and the environmental transition. But some of the initial text of the European Commission were so burdensome in terms of data reporting, in terms of paperwork, and was basically treating huge international corporations that have the means to be able to do this accounting and administrative paperwork and SMEs the same way. So, we've pushed to simplify a lot of these rules in the last few years to say, "Okay, let's at least lower lower the burden for the smaller companies so that we can accompany them." So, all this work needs to continue. And then, what's clear is that we have an internal market that's still too fragmented. I think, as I mentioned earlier, it's an incredible asset. 450 million people, so many talents, so many companies. But you know, when I go around the country and I talk to French companies and French entrepreneurs or startup entrepreneurs, and I ask them, "What do you think about when you think about Europe?" To be honest, they should be the most pro-European crowd. You know, liberals, open to the world, entrepreneurial, risk-taking. But what did they tell me? Number one, too much administrative burden. Uh and number two, they say, "You know, I've been successful in France. I have I've raised funds. I have customers. I've have bank relationships. If I want to go tomorrow to Ireland, to Germany, to Poland, to Portugal, I feel I have to restart everything from scratch. So, we have this, but at the same time, the solution that they're drawing is not a total say, "Let's go back to national borders. Let's abandon all of this." They say, "Let's make this a reality." So, this is why we've pushed very much and actually also with the Irish Commissioner, who's been at the at the heart of this effort, the 20th regime EU ink this idea that at least you should have a simplified way of incorporating a company that's dematerialized, no capital, and recognized everywhere in Europe if you want to expand and export on the European market. The saving and investment union, as I mentioned, you know, in French we have an expression that doesn't translate very well, but we say serpent de mer. Means a a sea snake. And it it's something that has been a recurring debate for a very long time and comes back from time to time and that is never solved. The saving and investment union is a bit of this at the European level, but I think clearly now you have a bigger sense of urgency. And we've worked with partners, with Germany, to create the first proposal. And build momentum among European partners to be able to to push for. So, all these pieces, the simplification, the integration of the internal market, the investment that will be linked also to large extent to the MFF debate, are now, I would say, under table. I think the next year, 6 months to a year, will be absolutely critical to deliver. We need to do so. And I would add land last one last piece to this. Let's be agile and flexible. You know, I talked about the coalition of the willing on Ukraine. This is something that we did with Europeans, also with non-EU members, the UK, Norway, Canada and Australia, countries that are not European but share a lot of our values and interests and wanted to contribute. On a lot of these issues, like the saving and investment union, if we don't manage to do it at 27 immediately, then let's have a group of uh countries that work together, integrate together, and create momentum from for others to join in. I think, you know, you can be deeply pro-European, like I am, without saying that necessarily you have to do everything at the 27 level all the time, otherwise you don't do anything. I think we need to show a bit more creativity and flexibility in the way that our institutions work. >> Can I ask you, and then I'll open up to the to the audience? Um I think Ireland scores one of the highest in terms of our um our enthusiasm for Europe. But, we have benefited hugely from Europe. Um and this country is a a different country than it was. But, we also at our presidency in 2004, we welcomed 10 new member states. And we've only had one new member since then. And yet, we have so many waiting in the wings that really want to join, particularly on the the the Baltic side of of Europe. Um could you just say a word about that? I was struck people saying they were disappointed that Iceland didn't pass the referendum, which I think we could all agree was disappointing. But, yet, we have so many members. North Mace- Macedonia is nearly 20 years waiting to join. Um and and other countries, just why that itself has been so slow? And I appreciate politics and regulation that comes in, but for Europe to to grow and to benefit from new new membership. >> I completely share your assessment of this. You know, I I deeply believe that enlargement is is an opportunity for Europeans. First, it's a geopolitical political to anchor peace and stability on our continent, especially when you see the level of interference that you have from predators and rivals. Russia and others in the Western Balkans Moldova, of course, the war of aggression on Ukraine. And you know I I don't have a lot of personal decoration in my office because it's not a very stable job, so you should not get too attached to to the place, but there's one poster that I brought from Sarajevo a few years ago from the the siege of Sarajevo in '95 that says Europe wake up, Sarajevo is calling you. There's one expression I never use I don't like is when people say war is back on the European continent when talking about Ukraine because it never left. We were a bit in denial, we outsourced to others but there was always war. And um and first it shows how fragile our continent can still be. Second, it shows the incredible opportunity that Europe not only can be for us in terms of anchoring peace but also for our neighbors. You know, I travel a lot through the candidate countries and talk to young people, talk to civil society, to leaders as well. And it says a lot about our institutions that you still have, you know, tens of millions of people who are going through deep reform deep work to be able to join. There are more candidates today to be the 20th member of the European Union than the 51st state of the United States. And I think that says something about our model. I was in Ukraine the first time in Maidan in 2014 and for the first time in history we saw young people being targeted at, shot at, killed because they were brandishing this European flag that was for them the promise of a better future. Now once we say this, it's true that it's a process that's very demanding. Because you need to integrate what we call the acquis communautaire, which is the body of legislation from the European Union. This is actually what guarantees that this enlargement is successful. Rule of law, independence of judiciary, protection of minorities, um free markets, etc., etc. So, you have countries that are moving forward I think really in the right direction. Montenegro, Albania, I think North Macedonia could be on that list, too. Moldova and others. Uh France, like a lot of our partners, sends experts in these countries to accompany the reform process in the administration, the ministries of justice, etc. But I think here again, I talked about our institutions being more agile, more flexible. Here again, we need to have a conversation about how we can make this enlargement process more flexible. Because as you see, there's a bit of a tension. There's a tension between the fact that we want to anchor these countries and these regions to Europe, but at the same time we must stay very demanding on the reforms in the rule of law. For us, for our institution and their the integrity, but also for the civil societies in these countries that we don't want to betray. And I think here, making the enlargement process um more gradual could be a way to answer this. Because the way it works today, it's a it's a light switch. It's on off. You do all the work for years and years and years, and you're not in the EU, and then suddenly one day you join and you're in all the bodies of policies of the European Union. I think if we had something more gradual where you say, "Okay, uh you've ticked the boxes on the fundamentals, rule of law, democracy, etc.," then you can already join certain blocks of policies. Whether that's energy, whether that's defense, whether that's the internal market, that's something we can figure out. You could sit around the council table without voting, but you can participate to the deliberations and debate. De facto, this is what Ukraine has been doing to large extent for the last few years. President Zelenskyy is very often around the Council table. So, I think thinking creatively, not betraying the integrity of the process, that is important, but thinking creatively about making this process more gradual as a way to go. We've made some proposals to open the conversations in in this respect with Germany. It's It's been I think well welcomed and received in in the candidate countries because they know it's We don't see this as an alternative to enlargement. We see this as building blocks towards full enlargement and final enlargement. I think that's a good way to think about it. >> Okay. Thank you for that. >> This podcast [music] is brought to you by the IIEA, sharing ideas, shaping policy.