PFP336 | Doug French, Rothbard as Intellectual Inspiration (Mises University, 2006)

[applause] Thank you, Lou. Thank you, everyone above me, behind me. Jeff said this would be very uh casual and informal and actually I find it kind of intimidating actually to be surrounded, but uh I am going to talk about Murray, but that's going to come a little later. I think that there's given the conditions here in Auburn, I think there's someone that we really need to honor as someone who's critical to the Misesus Institute. Guy named Willis Havlin Carrier. No, he wasn't an Austrian economist, but he is recognized as the father of air conditioning. Carrier Carrier didn't invent the very first system to cool an interior structure. However, his system uh was the first truly successful and safe one and started a science of modern air conditioning. He and six engineers started Carrier Engineering Corp. in 1915 with only $35,000. That's not very much today. The equivalent today would be 650,000. But last year, carrier sales topped 122.5 billion dollars and the company employs 45,000 employees. Now, cooling for human comfort rather than just industrial need began actually in 1924, which is not all that long ago. They uh installed it in the JL Hudson department store in Detroit. And strangely enough, people flocked into the store just to enjoy the air conditioning. They then uh started putting uh air conditioning in movie theaters, restaurants, theaters, and shopping malls. And then it was very quickly uh began in 1928 um putting air conditioners in residential uh units. Now, William uh Carrier made a huge difference in people's lives. People that have never really heard of him. And can you imagine having the Mises University in August in Auburn without air conditioning? Would millions of people be moving to Phoenix or Las Vegas if there was no air conditioning? But that's what great entrepreneurs do. They make people's lives better and most of the time they receive little or no credit for it. In fact, the public's image of entrepreneurs and businessmen as conniving, miserly, greedy crooks has been shaped since the time of Charles Dickens, Ebenezer Scrooge to the modern-day Michael Douglas character of Gordon Gecko in the movie Wall Street. This image essentially puts a face on Marxist class struggle theory. According to the theory, the primary form of exploitation is economic. The ruling class expro expropriates part of the productive output of the exploited or as Marxists say it appropriates a social surplus product and uses it for its own consumptive purposes. Of course, this negative stereotype of businessmen is as false as Marxist theory itself. While millions continue to struggle and have struggled under Marxist and socialist economic regimes, entrepreneurs at are at work in the capitalist world, investing capital, organizing resources, and developing new products and creating jobs to make the world a better place. Misus wrote in human action, "The vehicle of economic pro progress is the accumulation of additional capital goods by means of saving and improvement in technological methods of production, the execution of which is almost always conditioned by the availability of new capital. The agents of progress are the promoting entrepreneurs intent upon profiting by means of adjusting the conduct of affairs to the best possible satisfaction of customers in the performance of their projects for the realization of progress. They are bound to share the benefits derived from progress with the workers and also with the part of the capitalists and landowners and to in to increase the portion the portion allocated to those people step by step until their own share melts away entirely." Now, a guy you haven't heard of, it's probably a guy named Ron Yonke. He was an entrepreneur touched thousands of lives. died a couple years ago up in Boise, Idaho. Yonke grew up working in his father's machine shop and took over the business when his father died. The Yonke machine shops now in its 64th year in business serving contractors, mining companies, and uh the forestry industry. Speaking at Yonkey's funeral services, his friend Tom Nicholson mentioned that there are a number of people that have worked for the machine shop for over 50 years. Yonke would do anything for an employee and in turn the employees would walk through fire for him. The machine shop business was just the beginning for Yonke. He owned two sawmills in Montana. Charter Air Service Company, a company that manufactures firefighting equipment. He was a rancher. He owned vast amounts of timberland in western United States. He developed a number of real estate projects, held significant ownership in a a mechanical contracting firm and manufactured housing firm in two banks. But Yonke is best known as being one of the three original investors in a little company called Micron Technology. Second largest memory chip manufacturer in the world and the largest private sector employer in Idaho. Yonke along with Nicholson and a friend Allan Noble funded brothers Ward and Joe Parkinson when they started Micron in 1978 in the in the basement of a dentist's office. From those humble beginnings, Micron's now traded on the New York Stock Exchange. It has 8 billion in assets, 5.8 billion in shareholder equity, and employs 19,000 employees worldwide. Reverend James Wilson said at the Yonke funeral that there was not a mean bone in Ron Yonkey's body. He described him as a gentleman in the true sense of the word, a gentle man. But Ron Yonke was, believe me, the hardest worker anybody had ever seen and the hardest player anybody had seen. As I can attest, when I went to on a little snowmobile trip with Ron Nicholson, his friend, amplified the point, telling the crowd that he had one speed for work and play, pedal to the metal. Now, Ron Yonke was a man of considerable wealth, but his tastes were not very expensive at all. He's a big supporter of the Boise State U football team and he would allow the coaches to use the airplane on the recruiting trips. However, when he would come down to Las Vegas for bank board meetings, he, his son-in-law, and his friend Tom Nicholson would fly Southwest Airlines. And after lunch or after the board meeting, we'd all have lunch at the soup at Salad Bar at a local casino. He also was interested in any free drink tickets any of us had for for Southwest. [snorts] Now, Boise Media um did not mention Ron Yonkey's investment in a community bank in southern Nevada after he died because in relation to Micron and some of his other businesses, the bank was really too small to merit any attention. But just in the case of Micron, there wouldn't be a silver state bank if it wasn't for Ron. Yonke and Nicholson invested five million to start the bank 10 years ago. Today, the bank has a billion in assets, employs a n uh 190 people, and that $5 million investment is now worth a hundred million. Now, I'm one of those 190 employees. In fact, I think I was employee number 11, I believe. But I thank my uh lucky stars for Ron Yonke and his friend Tom Nicholson for the opportunities that they created for me. And if it was not for people like Ron Yonke, the place the world would be not only a poorer place but an emptier place. Ron Yonke was a big man. He was he was larger than life personality. It's been said that he never had a bad day. And you should believe it. The only other person I've been around who was as constantly cheerful as Ron Yonke was a person very near and dear to my heart, Murray Rothbart. Of course, everybody in this room knows who Murray Rothbart is, and a few of us know him personally, and I I'm proud to say that I'm one of those people. I moved to Las Vegas in 1986 and I got the bright idea to pursue a master's in economics at UNLB. Why economics, you might ask? Well, I I minored in the subject um during undergrad and I kind of liked it, but at the time MBA MBA degrees were all the rage and they probably still are. I was advised that an MBA degree would be much better for my career, but I decided on economics anyway. By the fall of 1990, I had 12 hours of uh master's credit under my belt, and I was desperately running out of options in terms of of trying to avoid econometrics and statistics. So I was looking through the catalog, the UNOV course catalog, and I saw an entry, history of economic thought, Rothbart. Perfect. I mentioned this to one of my classmates um that I had be taking the course under Rothbart and he said, "No, no, you shouldn't do that at all. Guy's a cook. Don't want to think about." He said I should go um take the course independent study with another instructor. Now I didn't know who Murray was. I didn't know whether he was a cook or not. I didn't know what Austrian economics was. I hadn't heard of the term libertarian. But I worked all day at the bank and I was taking classes at night. And frankly, I didn't have time to go screwing around uh lining up an instructor for independent study. So I went ahead and took Rothbart. Well, the first night of class, Murray hit the door and he started talking immediately, like he had started his lecture out in the hallway somewhere. [laughter] And it was something about dumb politicians threatening the evil oil companies that were raising gas prices. Some things never change. I guess it was during the first uh first Gulf War, I believe. And from that thought, he just continued right into the history of economic thought lecture. He didn't take role. He didn't hand out a syllabus. He didn't have time for any of that. He had centuries to cover. [laughter] So the eight or 10 of us in class furiously took notes to keep up. And I didn't know it at the time, but only about half of us were taking it for credit. The other half had already taken the course. and they were just auditing because Murray changed his history of economics class every semester uh focusing on on a different aspect of economic history. And in the fall of 1990, the course had a financial history emphasis. And in fact, if you want to read essentially the notes from Murray's history of economics class, uh pick up his history of economics from an Austrian perspective book. As Murray uh launched into this uh lecture, I I knew that this was economics the way it should be taught. Forget the graphs, the equations, the other nonsense that I endured for previous two semesters. This was good guys versus bad guys, human action stories told at a pace of a Robin Williams monologue. He occasionally would uh you know punctuate it with occasional cackle and dozen or so reading references a night. Um he give you the book title, the author, the year published, the publisher name was really quite extraordinary. So I went I went ahead and took Murray um for US economic history following semester, but I didn't really know Murray at all. And and to illustrate that point, someone asked me last night um [snorts] uh the first book that I've ever read by Murray. I said, "Well, it's uh America's Great Depression." And really, why? And I said, "Well, I decided to write a a paper on America's Great Depression." And I went into Murray to see if he was okay with the topic. He said, "Yeah, yeah, it's great." He I said, ' Do you have any suggestions for sources? He says, 'Well, I wrote a book about that. You might want to take a look at it. I said, 'Is it in the library? He goes, "Yeah, yeah." It's a little tip for students. Um, if your instructor has written a book on your subject, you should probably uh consult it and uh quote it liberally is probably the way to do that. But uh [snorts] anyway, the the only time we spoke actually was one night um when there's a bomb scare at Beam Hall over UNLV and uh so I couldn't get into I couldn't get in the classroom. So I went over to the U student union and I saw Murray sitting with one of my classmates [snorts] and I walked up and I said, "What's going on?" And Murray said, "Oh, there's a bomb scare." And I said, 'Well, we should send some of the underassman in there to find it. [laughter] He goes, I like the way you think, Douglas. And that was essentially my my first, you know, kind of conversation with Murray. But I was getting close at this point to uh I I needed to make a decision whether to take a comprehensive test to to get a master's or or write a thesis. and and I was actually leaning toward taking the test, but uh thankfully uh somebody convinced me to um to write a thesis. Um but I still didn't know Murray well enough actually to to uh pursue him as a my thesis coordinator uh or chairman, if you will. Uh so I asked somebody else and another huge break that instructor turned me down. So, I went to Murray and re reintroduced myself to him and uh asked him if he'd be my uh my advisor and and I proposed a subject and and Murray welcomed me with open arms. And then he proceeded to rattle off about 20 sources on speculative bubbles to you know just get me going. Yeah. >> And away we went. Um, something else I was very lucky about there at UNLV they used to have something called the theory policy track and uh it was really geared for students who wanted to come and and study under Murray and and Hans Hoa. Um, and I think I was the last or I believe that I am the last student who was able to graduate via that theory policy uh program. Uh subsequent to that um the um economics department graduate coordinators and and others managed to dump that uh program to actually keep people from coming to UNLB to to study under Murray and and Hans. Um but it's really I really got to know Murray during the researching and and writing of my thesis. Spent a lot of time with him. Um but I really didn't realize his greatness greatness. He was to me he was just a good guy. Uh he called me the efficient banker because I was fairly adept at um getting approval forms signed and getting things copied and you know things like like that. Um probably because I wasn't his smartest student so he had to call me something. But uh anyway but over time I realized how brilliant he was. [snorts] And uh as a banker I meet a lot of people and I have a lot of people who are trying to convince me that they're brilliant. Whether they be other bankers, customers, regulators, they all think they're brilliant and they want to convince you that. Especially regulators. And um and talk to anybody who's made millions of dollars in real estate investment. They're all real smart. Just just ask them. But Murray was actually a guy who did know everything, but he didn't act like it. He he was never pompous. He never talked down to me or anybody else that I knew of. When I asked him a question, he'd start with an answer. Well, in my opinion or in my view, he didn't act like he had all the answers, but he did. And as for his uh professional sta uh stature, I really didn't have a sense of it until I u attended a Misa's seminar in um in Stanford. And when I told some people at the table, I didn't know anybody there other than Murray. Uh I told them I was from Vegas and they said, "Well, do you know Murray Rothbart?" I said, "Yeah, I'm actually a student of his." And then these people proceeded to beg me for my class notes. And uh I guess it was at that point it kind of hit me that this guy was something special. Of course, Murray was a walking bibliography. Every time I would meet with him on my thesis, he had more sources. Um just title, author, publisher, year published. I can't imagine uh a better weapon as far as having a thesis advisor. But actually Murray's best um advice came in concerned my writing. His initial draft my initial drafts of my thesis were were very wordy. I had these long complicated sentences and and Murray told me if you want to learn how to write well just read HL min. And that started my you know love affair with uh with Minkin. And I would urge anyone who's struggling with their writing to um to do the same. Now, as great as I thought Murray was, the department chair, Dr. Theer, didn't give Murray high marks in his 1991 annual evaluation. And although the chairman uh and the chairman by the way his uh claim to fame I think was a professional paper on the various uh uh potency of uh sunscreen and how that would affect that was his um contribution to economic literature. Dr. there. Anyway, he uh he criticized Murray for having only quote only limited contact with most economics students unquote. Incredibly, in the area of scholarly research or creative activity, they wrote, "Professor Rothbart's performance in the area of professional growth has been disappointing." They also wrote that Murray was disappointed in the area of service. there gave Murray an overall satisfactory rating, but he he concluded his evaluation with uh quote, "Also, we expect Professor Rothbart to participate in departmental affairs to teach more students to be available as a role model for junior faculty unquote." Now, you can imagine Murray blasted with this 30,000word comment, he called it, uh, calling Chairman Theer's evaluation an outrage. Uh, Murray pointed out 11 of his scholarly accomplishments in 1991 that for some reason they had overlooked. And commenting on the rating him disappointing for service, Murray wrote, "In the economics department, I have attended and participated in all department meetings and I have not refused appointment to any department committees. I don't know what chairman they means by seldom participating in the daily life of the department. Teaching courses, advising students, keeping office hours, attending department meetings. What other daily life am I supposed to be missing? The only clue in Chairman theer's remarks is that I am supposed to be available as a role model for junior faculty. Apart from wondering why Mr. there should possibly want someone of limited professional growth to serve as a role model. I must say that the best way someone including myself can so serve is to be allowed to go about his business as a scholar and teacher without being subject to harassment. along with chairman the uh the graduate coordinator Tom Carroll or the evil Tom Carroll as we called him was also antagonisting toward Murray and uh and Murray's students after I uh subjected my committee and the others who attended to my uh torturous one and a half hour thesis defense. Um, by the way, if you're ever defending your thesis, you want to thin out the crowd, keep the questions at a minimum, go for an hour and a half. Uh, especially in an unconditioned room. Murray handed me a uh after after the defense, Murray handed me a sarcastic memo that Carol had circulated to the economics department faculty. [snorts] It read, "On Thursday, April 2nd at 3 PM, Doug French will defend his thesis in room 518. Since he has not shared his thesis topic with me, you will have to learn that on Thursday. As far as I know, his committee consists of Murray Rothbart, Hans Hapa, Terry, and Terry Ridgeway." Nevertheless, all graduate faculty from the department are permitted to attend the presentation, ask questions, and make recommendations to the candidates committee. Now, the idea that Carol as graduate coordinator didn't know what my topic was or who was on my committee is complete nonsense. In fact, he signed off on my um thesis perspectus on October 2nd, 1991, approving my topic. He signed my appointment of examination committee on November 21st, 1991, approving my committee members. See, I'm the efficient banker. I kept all these uh records. Carol's memo clearly bothered Murray, but he didn't want me upset. So, he didn't show me uh didn't show me the memo until after I'd completed the defense. I also remember being quite apprehensive the day uh of my thesis uh as as the thesis defense approached and knowing that all the graduate economics uh faculty were invited. Um but but Murray calmed me down. He said, "Don't worry, you know more about bubbles than anyone in the room." Murray's mentoring didn't stop when I completed my thesis and graduated. I moved to Reno, but we did stay in touch by mail. I was actually talking to Jeff on on these this iPod thing we did today. Whatever an iPod is, somebody will have to tell me. But um a guy as busy and productive as as Murray had time to write letters to me, two and three pages long, single space, uh just staying in touch with an ex- studentent. It was really quite extraordinary. And Murray was very very generous um with his time. But Murray encouraged me to take part of my thesis that dealt with tulip mania submitted as an article uh for publication in in various mainstream economics journals. He felt I had a good chance for publication uh believing that I had made, as he put it, a a contribution. However, for whatever reason, none of the seven or eight mainstream economics journals shared Murray's view. [snorts] Um, and actually he wrote he wrote me in a letter in December 92. Your experience with the journals reminds me that every time I've been rejected by a scholarly journal, I've been infuriated. Not because of the rejection, but because the referees all seem to be a pack of morons and missed the point of the article. Hence, I rarely submit stuff to the journals anymore. But Murray wanted me to continue to try and mention three other journals to submit to, which I did. But then a year later, uh, after these rejections, Murray wrote me, "That's monstrous about these rejections. I might have told you that I've never received a rejection letter that further the alleged purpose of the offering of offering helpful criticisms." And I guess it's still a perfect record. If you haven't tried Economic Inquiry and the Southern Economic Journal, you might try them. if the Journal of MCB turns it down. If all else fails, don't forget the Review of Austrian Economics, which will certainly be receptive. I was back in Vegas in in December of of 94 and I I went to see Murray. I hadn't seen him a few years since I moved to Reno and uh went up to his office and and uh actually waited in the hallway as I had many many times for an hour to uh to see him. Um, thankfully over the years they've started putting a chair out there so you didn't have to sit on the floor. But, um, I waited for an hour. He didn't show up, so I gave up. Actually took the elevator down to leave. But, uh, the elevator opened and there he was. And, um, so we we went up to his office. We chatted for a while uh before he was going to give um his last final. And what Murray would do, he'd give his his last final. He'd grade all the papers. Um, everybody had to write a 10-page uh paper if I remember right, and all the exams, which were all um um all essay questions. And um and then he'd catch the redeyed in New York. And uh so I was catching him on that last night. But I told Murray about a Liberty Magazine conference that I had attended that fall. that was given uh by Bill Bradford, I guess the late Bill Bradford, um which was in entitled Why Libertarians Love to Hate. And the speech was essentially about Einran and Murray. And I told Murray about it. He just howled with laughter when I told him about it. And I had ordered the tape of uh Bradford's talk and we were actually going to get together when he got back from the holidays and uh play the tape. And you know what fun that would have been to to do that with Murray. Unfortunately, that's a laugh we were never able to share. He never made it back from uh from New York City. But uh u these gentlemen that I've talked about have had and continue to influence um lives even after their deaths. And that is true greatness. In contrast, um, the mainstream press is is gushing over, uh, Warren Buffett's $ 31 billion contribution to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. And although these guys are very astute at accumulating wealth, and now they want to they want to bask in the glow of the world worldwide praise, uh, they're essentially going to throw their money at solving problems that money's not needed to solve. Gates said he and Buffett are looking for problems that the free market can't cannot or will not solve. And Buffett claims the market system has not worked in terms of poor people. But I tend to agree with Doug Casey who uh wrote in his recent international speculator newsletter that he calls Gates and Buffett idiot savants that they are [laughter] anti- capitalistic limousine liberals. Buffett is uh on record as being pro- high property taxes and along with Bill's dad and Bill Gates's dad supports taxing the dead. And the Gates Foundation, by the way, focuses on world health and on improving US libraries and high schools. Ironically, one of the diseases the foundation focuses on is malaria, but as as Lou wrote a couple months or a couple weeks ago, it's already a cure for malaria, DDT, and the government's banned it. And as far as improving high schools, again, get the government out of the education business and that problem would be solved. Don't need Warren's 31 billion to fix that problem. Gates and Buffett should do continue to do what they do best, make money and accumulate capital. The accumulation of capital, no matter who owns it, adds to the demand for everyone's labor and so enriches everyone. If these billionaires want to truly help the poor and sick and insist on donating their vast fortunes, they should support the teaching of Austrian economics. What the world needs now are free markets and unfettered capitalism. Gates and Buffett should use their billions to spread that message. But something tells me they haven't dropped by the Misesus Institute to drop off a check. So, it's left to us to carry on Murray Rothbart's work. ideas. Ideas that will stop the devolution of society and allow entrepreneurs like Carrier and Yonke to make the world a better place. It is only free markets that can do that. Not increasing amounts of government interference, not billionaires spreading their money around perpetuating the same frauds or rich ex basketball stars being governor. John Mackey, the CEO and co-founder of Whole Foods, believes, quote, "Business has a much greater purpose than just profits and is possibly the greatest force for good on the planet today." He said, "When executed well, business increases prosperity, ends poverty, improves the quality of life, and promotes the healthy and longevity of the world population at an unprecedented rate. But man also thinks the left has the young audience captured because leftists are idealists who want to change the world. Well, I think Mackey is wrong. I think we have a room full of idealistic young people that want to change the world right here. You have your whole lives in front of you and with that you have the chance to change people's lives for the better either by serving customers as an entrepreneur or following in Murray steps footsteps as a scholar and teacher. Austrian economics is the intellectual backbone for the freedom movement. The Mises Institute is the wellhead for its education. You in this room are the best and brightest we have. The future of the freedom movement and Murray Rothbart's legacy is in your hands. I know you're up for the task. Thank you. [applause] >> I can. They're not hard. What was on Bradford's tape? [sighs] >> What was on Bradford's tape? It was essentially that that Murray and Einran um did nothing but create enemies. And that was that was essentially um instead of uh building consensus, they wanted to fight with everybody. And that was essentially his his take on on Mur both Murray and and Iran. Um I mean I think that u I think that Bill wrote once [snorts] that Murray was the best guy in the world to have a martini with but uh other than that I don't know if he had all that many good things to say. But um that was essentially the the thrust of his uh presentation. Is that right? Yeah. >> What's that? >> Well, actually, interestingly enough, I wouldn't call him a Randian, but um and I didn't know who Rand was at the time. In fact, as you can tell, I didn't know much of anything. um probably still don't but um uh Murray is the one who introduced me to to Einran and uh and since he was uh of course uh you know excommunicated uh from the circle you would expect that maybe Murray uh would be somewhat antagonistic about Rand, but he wasn't. He was uh uh very complimentary. Oh, you should read Atlas Shrugged. you should read fountain hit. Um, so when I talked to him about Iron Rand, he was very complimentary, but I I certainly wouldn't call him a Randy. So, you know, Rand picked her economist. Uh, she had a choice. Murray and Alan Greenspan. So, the choice was obvious. She went the she went the green span route. >> Yes, sir. Yeah. >> Yeah. I you know a few of them you know um Fetta uh forgot her last name. James Philin here. It's the only two that I can really remember that I that I think at all was have uh been associated with the Misus Institute. Um I know in one class we had uh I remember we had some MBA students and uh they were completely befuddled by um u a uh it was complete lecture and b the tests were um were essay and they were all used to multiple choice and so they did nothing but they did nothing but complain but um um there were number of people like I say that took it for for auditing uh purposes. Uh Leah Glo, Jeff Bar, you know, a few people that are around town. Hans and and Murray have been actually they produce a lot of lawyers for whatever reason. Uh in Hans's case, probably a good idea, but um [laughter] but not many economics instructors. So anyway, Yeah. >> Right. Right. I I mean UNLV is is uh known for its um gaming studies I think um in food and beverage I believe. So uh yeah there wasn't a lot of uh intellectual rigor going on um in terms of students coming from uh uh from other disciplines. So and there wasn't very many people in class. There were only about eight eight to 10 people. So >> yeah. Um, yeah, they it's cost me a lot of money actually. Yeah, you know, I took Murray and and then, you know, fell into the fell into this hook line and sinker. So, I immediately um thought I I was look I'm looking for a bubble around every corner and uh so I've been, you know, I buy gold and you know, so I was buying gold at 500 and watched it go down to 20 250. instead I was in Las Vegas and I should have been taking my money and putting it in real estate uh borrowing all I could. Um but I think that um in banking um certainly there is a there is an application in terms of uh a knowledge of uh the business cycle that um I think that a lot of people believe that um uh bankers are are smart um their average banker is smart and he's not and the average business owner uh that's out there um I think there was a question in the macro for a panel today about entrepreneurs, why don't they anticipate when things are going to be bad? And that's not the way entrepreneurs are. If money's cheap, and I've literally had real estate developers say this to me, I'm going to borrow money even if it's wrong because the money is so cheap. And um and they also uh will build until um they go broke. If it doesn't work out, then um um they they'll hit the wall and they'll start all over again. And I've I've heard the chairman of uh of the National Association of uh income property um essentially say that. So I think as a banker you get a better sense um for business cycles and that's especially uh probably the most handy thing about it. However, I think we tend to be a little early. we see things um and probably miss some opportunities and and that's why uh you can be sure folks that I've lent as many dollars as I possibly can on real estate in Las Vegas in the last nine or 10 years and and to this point it's uh been successful but I can't say you know what it will be in the next uh few years but u yeah there there are some applications um but as far as and I I have received emails um about whether it's better to get an MBA or or masters in econ. And uh I don't that's maybe an open question, but I I think that employers um an economics degree sometimes might intimidate them. Whereas an MBA I don't think intimidates anybody and it certainly shouldn't. had a former colleague of she thought the world. Um, I think that universally, um, the faculty thought that Murray was a good guy. Um, but that they, um, they certainly didn't, um, do him or or Hans any favors in terms of trying to, uh, uh, try to help them attract students. Um all of the publishing that was done was being done at the east end of the hall um uh where professor Hoa and Murray's office was. None of the other faculty were were publishing anything and I think there was a fair amount of jealousy because of that. But uh Murray was impossible uh not to like. I mean, they they liked the guy, but they certainly um certainly didn't encourage anyone to to uh become an Austrian. >> Guys aren't going to spit on me. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks, >> [applause]