Peter Crouch Opens Up About His Dark Times & Crying Himself To Sleep | E196

I've seen things that I'd never seen before you know the proudest moment of my life has been taken away because of that [Applause] the people that know me would say I'm a nice guy born to pitch I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed the top level players that I played with Lampard John Surrey Steven Gerrard I think look like they don't enjoy it constantly battling for the next thing were they intense so intense yeah and you know a big reason why I'm the person I am I pay for England and era where it felt like there was a huge pressure you know we had an opportunity to win World Cups and because we didn't it was heaped on players I've got my mum my dad and friends in the crowd and then you come on and get both at five seventy thousand it's hard to come back from that my mom was crying my dad had to have a fight I was thinking about giving up football I think I wasn't seen as what an England Striker should look like I was so scared I was just wanted to hide away in that phase you were turning to drink more than you should have been well I alluded to at that time you're not seen as people it's like you're well paid so you have to endure this abuse you know you put yourself in a position to be shot at but like what I've seen with certainly Harry MaGuire the criticism goes beyond criticism it's gone too far so proud to represent my country but before this episode starts I have a small favor to ask from you two months ago 74 of people that watch this channel didn't subscribe we're now down to 69 my goal is 50 so if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted if you like this channel can you do me a quick favor and hit the Subscribe button it helps this channel more than you know and the bigger the channel gets as you've seen the bigger the guests get thank you and enjoy this episode Pizza [Music] where do I need to start in your story to really understand you what's the most pertinent relevant things that someone listening to this needs to know about you to understand you um well right at the start I suppose I think it's everything comes from um your childhood right um I am who I am and shaped by by my parents and my friends uh and I suppose people see me now obviously like I had a determination to be a footballer a huge determination to be a footballer and then people see me now um as a footballer who has a laugh I suppose and that is my Persona um and but that stems from from my childhood really and being a little bit different looking a little bit different and having a maybe a defense mechanism um and that humor or probably that you see which is me now um yeah it was a little bit of a defense mechanism when someone came at me I'd always be funnier than they would be and then that stops whoever saying it in their tracks you know and then that being so tall at such a young age was was difficult at times but that kind of defense mechanism was I laugh at myself before you can laugh at me and that stood me a good stead and and even now that's you know that's the way I get through things when was that when was the first time that you that you realized that you were different because like I remember coming to the UK from Botswana in Africa and I was the only black kid in Norway school and there was like there's some day I think I remember specifically a comment that a kid made to win the playground which really put into like perspective that I was actually different to them it was something about my hair um I had like a little little like kind of Jackson 5 afro going on that I'd combed out and from that day onwards there was I kind of noticed that I was different can you recall a time where you've you realize that you being taller Was Made You Different yeah well I think it's only it's only people with with experience like older people that that notice anything like that isn't it really I think like as kids we just grow up everyone's the same aren't they and then um it's older kids so like when I was you know I was always the tallest in my class but my mum and dad may have never made a big deal of it up to me um I was always taller than everyone else and then when we started to play football and then when I started to be good at football you would hear things on the sideliner yeah but he's a couple of years older or yeah he's good but he's he's too old and um because you're only judged by your height at that at that age so I would hear things from the parents and then um you know I'd hear like little remarks like people laughing little Japes and jiving and um yeah because like people saying or you're skinny or your lanky is is seen as um it's sort of like you're allowed to say it in some ways do you know what I mean like it's just it's a describing word but like that's how it was for me um but I love it it feels to me like it's part of me it's me now I've always been taller than everyone else it wasn't as if I just shot up um and was different I was just always ahead above everyone else and that is a part of me now which I love Richard I was Richard Osmond who came on the podcast um was the first person who kind of stunned me into silence because I have to be completely honest I didn't realize that heightism abusing people for being tall was such a sort of consequential um thing for those people I was one of the people who who didn't didn't realize that someone who's lived their height being very very tall will be told about it everywhere they go every second and how that can impact someone and how they feel it honestly I remember doing that podcast I remember sitting here [ __ ] oh of course of course it'd be like anything else with me if I had the third arm and everyone said everywhere I go it would make me subconscious about it exactly right yeah um and you know it's because there's bigger problems everywhere you know there's bigger problems but my prob my problem or you know it was I think it was different was my height you know like I I recently you know added did a joke of like all the questions that I was permanently asked I had a a series of cards in my inside pocket to answer every single question that everyone the people I knew were going to ask me so it was uh what's the weather like up there um do you play basketball uh how tall of you um do you sleep in a grow bag is the weather different up there right five questions but I had all the answers in my inside pocket so before they even open their mouth I could give them a card um and it was just something funny you know that that changed the subject but it's amazing how many times I think it's less so now because people know who I am and know what I'm about but before um people I became well known um those questions were just constant what impact is that we joke about it as you know now but what impact does that have on a young man well it on an impressionable young teenager it had a it had a big impact um me now you know it's water for ducks back you know it doesn't it doesn't matter to me um but yeah as a young lad it was it was a little bit different I remember my dad getting you know really angry about it um because as a teenager you're going through things that are a little bit um you know you're always you're not comfortable within your own skin are you as a young as a young lad um so I was the same as everyone else but I found it difficult at times really difficult and especially football Terraces like as I got older and I was playing professionally um and then I started playing in the first team and all of a sudden it was like you know dealing with there's one thing dealing with the odd person in the in the street saying oh aren't you talking and another thing dealing with 30 000 people screaming like of Senate is that you you know taking the piss out of the way you look laughing at you that that was difficult when you say difficult what do you mean um in a practical because I read it like 14 and 15 years old you're crying yourself to sleep sometimes because of this and having conversations with your dad about it yeah yeah I think there was times where I thought to myself is it is it worth it is it worth going through this um why am I putting myself through this it's all I've ever loved it's all I've ever wanted to do but if people are going to laugh at me and take the piss out of me um what is the point you know um do I want it that much I was lucky I had a good support network around me you know I had good people around me my dad was was great with me he'd always and he was harsh with me at times as well but he was also really really good and at pulling me back up and sort of giving myself more confidence and um listen I don't look like your average footballer and I've known that since I was 10 11 years old you know when I watched football on the TV I don't see anyone that represented me um really like the odd like tour Andre Flo was was potentially one had good technique um there was a couple of players that but but not many so I thought to myself maybe I'm just not I'm not right maybe I don't look right I don't I shouldn't be a player you know I had all these things going on in your mind but ultimately if you know I had the determination and I had the ability to and I suppose the thick skin which you have to have to to go past it you said that there was thoughts in your head of maybe I should maybe I should quit maybe I should go do something else was were those like real considerations you had at some point oh without doubt they were that was um I I'm just I just think to myself is it worth it like why I always remember the game it was West Brom away and I came on and uh I missed the chance and nobody knew who I was I was just a kid you know I was probably the same height as I am now and probably about I was probably about nine Stone nine and a half Stone I was you know much skinnier than I am now believe it or not and I'm trying to be a premier league player you know it's just people just thought it was absolutely ridiculous and at times I thought it myself I thought well I know I've got ability but I'm looking at these big strong you know developed men like I can't compete with this um I always remember coming on people actually laughing at me and then um there was another game away at Gillingham where I just got absolutely abused to the point where you know people were shouting freak and does the circus know you're here like this these were these are the things that what people were saying and uh my dad was in the crowd I always remember it I was walking I was walking uh out uh at half time of the game and my dad was rolling down the aisle in in the Gillingham and having a fight with someone I thought oh my God this is not this is my first season in professional football I think my dad's having a fight I'm getting absolutely abused my mom's crying you know what am I doing why why am I putting myself through this of course I love football and that's you know what I want to be but is it worth all this how do you feel about those people that are shouting like freak at you when you come on the pitch and upset in your family like how do you like think about them and that kind of culture now like you know what like it'd be easy for me to say here sit here and go uh oh you know the brain dead this that but growing up in a football culture it was like I've been there myself on a football tourist where you you know and you hear things my dad used to cover my ears and stuff um let's go to Chelsea as a kid and um I don't know it's it's like it's like almost normal and I know it's wrong and obviously there's a line you know I mean obviously we've seen it recently you know with racism and you know there's certain things that go well over the line but you know being tall wasn't considered you know over the line so it was something that I just I just decided was that was the way football is you know can we change that can I change that I don't think so so I just got on with it um and how do I think about them now I think yeah it was Reckless I think I think I've sat down on a drillingham fan that was abusing me that day and I said shoot you know what you really like my mom was crying my dad had to have a fight I was thinking about giving up football I think you'd I think he'd say oh God I'm sorry I think he would but I don't think in that moment he saw us as as people it's like you're a footballer on the pitch and you're not seen as it's like such tribalism that you're just gonna enjoy you have to endure it for you know you're well paid so you have to endure this kind of level of abuse um and I think things are changing you know I'd like to think they are we're trying to help that but and certainly in those days it was a case of get on with it did that put a chip on your shoulder you know when you hear those things and you're running onto the pitch and you hear people abusing you or whatever else or you're aware of that that narrative in your head when you come on do you think to yourself I'm gonna [ __ ] show these people I'm gonna does it give you did it give you doubt or did it give you an extra bit of confidence it's a little bit of both I think like when I was like I I didn't know whether I was going to play for England or I was going to be a non-league player and either of them would have been fine like I wasn't on the map to go and play for England you know I wasn't Steven Gerald I wasn't Michael Owen I wasn't Wayne Rooney you know I had a different path I wasn't ready for the Premier League till I was 22 23 probably you know so I didn't know where my career was going to go so yeah there were times where I doubted myself but then I think you know I think I scored my first goal and uh and things just changed and I just it was well it was the most important moment of my life and it was against Gillingham again believe it or not funny how it comes around but I yeah chest the ball down and I've only disappointed I was at QPR and I knew then that I'd have a career in football like I didn't know I'd play for Liverpool I didn't know I'd play for England but I I didn't know what I want to achieve but I knew then I'd have a career in football and that was where my confidence grew and and then I thought no no I can do this your dad had he was um quite tough at times from what I read yeah yeah like really tough yeah um what does that mean well yeah I mean I think at times he probably went a little bit too too far but like I wouldn't I wouldn't be sat here having played for England or I've been playing achieving the things that I've done achieving my dreams without him being hard on me like I wouldn't would I go maybe to the lengths at times that he he did maybe not but what lengths uh well we um just certain things like I think the heart the harshest one was when he um it obviously left me at uh I was at the ball court in um at Tottenham and um I jumped out of a tackle and his thing was look I came from a nice background and a lot of kids were playing football to survive you know so I had to toughen up and that's the truth like was I going to go into a tackle like my life depended on it like the kids from from the estate around Edmonton or east London and probably not at that time so you know when I got up to um after the after training you're like my dad he'd gone [Music] yeah yeah so he left me and uh I had to get home I'm bearing in mind I grew up in in healing uh getting home from wildlame with an overground Seven Sisters talked to the circus Oxford Circus twirling Broadway and then walk home from there um oh it's probably about I was probably 13 or 14. but I hadn't been on a tube before I had but not on my own so it's a tough lesson did he tell you he was going no I went up there and he was gone and did you not think I'll give him a call tomorrow well I didn't have a mobile yeah yeah yeah it was different and when did you find out it was because if you weren't tackling people well I thought I thought it might be wasn't no I didn't tackle I think I remember jumping out of one particular tackle uh for my dad's gonna kill me for that uh do you know what though I never jumped out of a tackle again and you know like I say is a harsh lesson but I'm not gonna I'm gonna sit here and say it wasn't the right lesson I think it might have been a tad harsh would I do would I do that to my son I'm not sure I don't probably not but I think potentially I'm too I'm too easy on my kids a bit um it's it's a tough lesson to learn but I think if you want to be a top Elite footballer you need to want it as much as the next person and I did want it but I I hadn't had to fight as much as these kids you know and um and don't get me wrong these kids these kids are they're my friends now you know like I have some good some good lads that came from tough upbringings that went on to be really good players um you know ledley King I remember like ledley King Stephen Mills James Carter these boys that I met in the bull Court you know Nikki hunt they were the tough Lads you know from you know Bo in in East London you know an estate where like Ashley Cole grew up Lily King grew up and and I ended up playing in the ball court um where they grew up you know and that's a different kind of environment to where I was playing you know but I think when you can hold your own in there and you know you can go you can rough it up you can fly into tackles I basically changed my whole personality well I played football you know like I can sit here now and I'd like to say that I'm gonna I'd like to think that I'm a nice guy I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy but on the pitch I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed and then that was just one lesson when you got home from that little football game where you didn't put the tackle or jumped out of the tackle did your dad have a conversation with you about it about why he left yeah so he told you why at the end he said yeah listen there's a few things that like sugar remain privacy remember that but um let's just say I was I was told you know uncertain times to not jump out of a tackle again okay okay good and your mum what was your her broader influence on you yeah mum um she is very much like me uh yeah I think most of my my traits probably come come from my mum um you know obviously the love of football came from my dad and stuff and you know he was very good with me but my mum was uh was was very good with me and um you know she was I thank her every day about you know she's taking me to to matches I remember seeing her just you know she was the only mum on the side with the barley when it was lashing down and um she was incredible taking me to places she was like my shoulder to cry on she was the person that I would provide in um they're both both very very good and you know a big reason why I'm the person I am those players from the estate that you you played amongst one of the things I read about um in your book was how you could see how attitude played such an important role in who would make it because getting from like the estate to you know sort of Semi-Pro level and then getting to the Premier League is a long [ __ ] journey and there's only a few seats at that top table so when you think about like why including yourself why in terms of mindset and attitude some of of your colleagues and some of your peers made it and didn't make it what's your answer to that yeah it's funny like everyone every footballer that's played for England or played I've played with in the Premier League um they've all got a story all of them I've got every single one will tell you a story about the player that was better than them that no one knows um there's so many of them out there and it's sad um but for whatever reason injury you know there's lots of uh temptation as a young footballer especially when you're that good um you know if you're earning money you don't know how to handle that money friends and parties you know distractions of of all different kinds um you know actually will you know the determination dedication there's so many factors alongside ability um luck there's there's so many factors um but I sometimes think we don't you know a lot of the time we look at the negative side of football um but I think sometimes when you see the kids that have come from absolutely I'm talking absolutely nothing some of these kids uh who are now playing for England or you know and they make mistakes they make mistakes in the public eye they make mistakes high profile mistakes and everyone goes ass footballers you know that's what that you know that's what they're like if you'd have seen what they've come from to playing in a Champions League final like I think that's a success story you know I think sometimes we should celebrate that fact not not Kinder for making those mistakes that they've made um and yeah of course it depends what kind of if it's you know too too big a mistake obviously you can't condone some things but some of these players who have come basically with no mum and dad you know someone's picked them up with one particular player you know not had any boots I've been thrown on a football pitch and has ended up playing in a Champions League final but yeah he's made of mistakes along the way but I think sometimes we should we should consider that a success yeah we don't really have a lot of empathy do we when it comes down because it's because it's because it's a highly profession um you know and sometimes um you know there's a stigma on uh you know why are these why are these players getting paid so well um and I get I get that you know there's uh there's a lot of money in football and um you know it's just could it be spent Elsewhere on people in the NHS or you know people uh who've you are doing pretty much more harder jobs than a footballer but um it is what it is you can't change it but I do think um yeah there is there is that stigma Associated to footballers I sat with Tim Grover who was the guy that trained Michael Jordan and Kobe and he also trained some Premier League football players now gives them like coaching advice and one of the things he told me was how he's seen the pressure of being a high-level Premier League football player completely destroys some players and it's something that was the first time I'd kind of heard that because as a fan as I've always been you know all you know we're all tweet and we're all having our say all commenting we're all at the game shouting in our little mob mentality whatever but then we don't really think that the all of that pressure especially on like as you say a kid that's come from the estate who's 18 and isn't like doesn't have the tools to deal with that pressure how they can be going home out can severely impact their performance and how it can kind of like just cause them to collapse a little bit um I got to be honest I've seen a similar thing in my view with like the the mob attacking like someone like Harry MaGuire rashford had it a lot last year as well but um what's your take on all of that and have you seen that yourself in the dressing room yeah no I've seen it and I played I've played in um I'll play for England in Era where um it was it felt like there was a huge pressure there was it was the golden generation you know the players were the best we've ever had since 66. um you know we had an opportunity to win World Cups and you know because we didn't it was you know it felt like it was heaped on certain players um and that kind of pressure but when you're talking about rashford and and Maguire like I think we were all entitled to criticize players like we put ourselves in that in that position but like what I've seen with certainly Harry MaGuire I feel like it goes it's gone really too far I think you know it's it's harsh it's you know I'm just thinking of his family you know because I've been in that position I've been booed for England I've I've remember playing Old Trafford in the game and coming on and it's the proudest moment you'll ever have in your life and your home fans are burning you know I've been in that situation and it feels like Harry MaGuire is going through you know what seems to be a prolonged period of this and yeah regardless of form I think some of you know the Social Media stuff I see you know ridiculing um I think he's having a difficult time to as a player but I think some of the criticism goes beyond criticism it becomes um too harsh in my opinion having been in a situation where you've been booed by the fans of the club you're playing for what does that do to you what did it do to you when you came up was it for England yeah well that's devastating yeah I'm um I'm playing for England listen you know there might be an element of the fact I was my Liverpool player I'm an Old Trafford um you know obviously a lot many live fans um but it was during the course of when I I wasn't score of Liverpool and I was having a real tough time anyway I had 18 games where I didn't score for Liverpool and um the fact that it goes back to I I felt like within the land to be superhuman it goes back to the thing where because I look different a bit I I wasn't seen as what an England Striker should look like um and I think that was genuinely a thing but um I I then you know I'm so proud to represent my country but I've got my sister my mum and my dad uh all friends in the crowd and everyone's excited you know they're all talking to me before the game about you know makeup potentially coming on and making an appearance getting the cap and then you come on and get booed by seventy thousand of your own fans yeah so so what I'm saying is um don't ever feel sorry for footballers don't but you know don't don't have to we we expect that but my family like my mom was in bits um you know the proudest moment of my life has sort of been taken away a bit because of that um but you know we put ourselves in in the position there's no I'm not gonna I'm gonna sit here and and cry about it just it's just disappointing for my family more than anything what happens when the whistle blows the game ends on days like that you're going back and see your family is there a bit of an awkwardness to it a bit of embarrassment you know because uh you want to be the one who comes down with a with a champagne in your hand you know and everyone claps you in and your family gives you a big hug you know and most of the lads did that you know they've got a shirt they've got a cap like I'm I'll come down to the Players Lounge after and I'm a bit sheepish all right sorry about that Mom you know it's like you're apologizing for doing the thing that you've worked so hard to do your whole life um so that is that's difficult dealing with the the family side of it because I I know what I've done I've put myself in a position to be shot at I'm sure you feel the same you know doing this podcast whatever you do that's you know you put yourself in a position to be shot at but your mum hasn't you know she doesn't she doesn't need to hear that and it kills it killed her but it's funny isn't it when you're when you put yourself in a position to be shower I really like that phrase um and then you know you get shot at your family try and stand in the way of the bullets to some degree yeah and it's like no no please don't send me the Articles please don't tell me your thoughts on it and WhatsApp I don't need to uh like persuade you out of this situation and like sort of counsel you on why these people are saying this about me so how do you deal with that how do you deal with like um you know do you just part of the guard and pretend it's not happening it depends on the issue but I mean I'll probably get canceled once once every quarter for something I've said on this podcast or whatever um Dragon Center sometimes because the way it's edited it can make it seem like I said something I didn't say or whatever but um so my friends know not to send me articles just assume I've seen it yeah yeah I don't need my best maker have you seen that this is that this is something that happened like early on in my career and I was like no stop all that like I'm not I'm not reading new I don't watch match of the day if I haven't scored that's the way I deal with it yeah it's like you know that doesn't exist yeah yeah and when I do something good I'm like online be very selective in what you watch or listen to but was there a moment in Ukraine where you said I'm not going to read the newspapers anymore I'm not going to watch the Telly I'm just gonna yeah was that that Liverpool Facebook yeah that liberal phase was like radio silent no I was gone I was relaxed to the thing like everyone's the problem with now I could stop buying a newspaper I can stop watching telly I can do other things you know I can do but nobody can live without their phone now and this is the problem like for young footballers that are worried if I do I'd like you've got to worry about it because no one can put their phone down from no one can um Sony football is the same especially a young player you know you pick up your phone for it right I've got what's on the diary I've got a text message then you did you find yourself on Instagram on Twitter or on whatever you're on and you can't get away from it and they and no matter what the players tell you whoever they are I don't listen to it they they do they do you can't get away from what what it is now with the phones you can't everyone's got one and everyone's looking um with me to get through that yeah I didn't I didn't watch I was getting ridiculed that time where I didn't score for Liverpool was such a hard time like for me I was just wanted to hide away in in a in a dark room until I scored basically so I don't know what I would do if I was hiding away in a dark room with a mobile phone right you might as well just not you might as well go out and face it all because it's a lot harsher on the on the phone than it is when you see people in person if I was in your so you signed for Liverpool and then you go 18 games without screwing 18 appearances right well that's great um if I was in your household at that time if I was behind the scenes in your Camp what would have I actually what would have what would I have seen um or someone who's depressed I suppose I mean outwardly outwardly not I've never been that person to sort of to wallow in it you know I've always been the sort of I suppose a bubbly character I always see the positive in everything um but that at that time like it felt like I was getting ridiculed and it was really tough I had to sort of fight my way through it but what was so amazing was the Liverpool fans stuck with me and uh that's something that I'll never forget because I I swear to you any club in the world um having just won the Champions League in one of the best finals we've ever seen in Istanbul in 2005 they signed me right I turn up and I don't score for 18 games right I don't think there's a club a top club in the world that tolerates that as a fan base um apart from Liverpool fans and they stopped by me and it was like a Siege mentality it was like everyone else is attacking him but he's one of ours and we're um with him and it felt like every time I played it they were willingly to score and when I eventually did um you can see the the footage of it the camera's shaking and like the it's like we've won a European Cup Final like people wanted to score that much and I you know I'm thankful to this day that they they did stick with me and because I managed to turn it round after that and um it was a special moment uh at a special Club I was reading them in that phase you you were turning to drink more than you should have been a little bit after games and stuff yeah because my dad you know to be fair to him would say to me and I'd be like no I'm not going out don't even like you're going out like he'd make me go out after games and I'd be like I don't want people laughing at me but he dragged me out we'd have a few beers like it wasn't as if I was drinking at home on my own it wasn't like a dark kind of thing it was he was making he was dragging me out and he was making me have a few drinks and then I realized actually no one because it's I've built it up it's everyone's laughing at me it's my it it's my world that's you know not actually no one really cares you know they might have a laugh at you on a Saturday but they're going back to their own lives you know I've if I feel like it's everyone's laughing at me at all times you know you build these things up in your head and they're never as bad as you think they are so his way of dealing with it you know with me was to take me out for a beer and yeah I probably did drink a little bit more than I should do as a as a premier league player but I needed to at that time and you you bounce between what six clubs before the age of 25. yeah six yeah that's a lot of moving it's a lot of moving around yeah but I I classed that as um like if I'm if I'm at Liverpool or you know you're starting Manchester United or Chelsea you know Bayern Munich Real Madrid you don't have to move anywhere if you're playing do you don't have to the course of my career was very different to anyone else's courses of my career and those moves that I had where QPR was I had a chance to Showcase my talent you know I did very well the club went into Administration I went to Portsmouth and they bought me for like a record fee I then um did really really well in a championship and got a move to Aston Villa in a premier league you know I felt like my dream had arrived and then it didn't quite work out I wasn't ready for the Premier League um I always remember my debut was against Newcastle and Alan Shearer was up the other end of the pitch and I was at this end of the pit obviously the the opposite Striker and I thought if that's what I need to be a premier league player I'm not one I'm not one because he was so good and I and I I just thought I maybe I maybe I'm a championship player um so I ended up having to move again uh to Southampton to get games and then things took off so like all my moves were like for for a reason for the from a club point of view or for a financial thing for the club or for me having to go out and get football or for me to progress as a player so I would have loved nothing more than to stay at one club for my whole life uh but that wasn't that wasn't my journey you moved from um Liverpool to Spurs um how would you sort of summarize your time at Spurs um I I absolutely loved it because I started at Spurs as a youngster and I played in that book called White heart Lane and I tried to play in a youth team and I was in the reserves and me and ledley King came through together ledley when you obviously was there and I went throughout all this whole journey of Liverpool England QPR Portsmouth Southampton or Norwich on loan dulwich Hamlet alone and I came back to Tottenham and ledley was in the same place I left him which was another first team for Tottenham I'd come through there in the youth team I had so many players ahead of me I wasn't ready so for when I when I come back for 10 million pounds and I I'd already played in the Champions League final I played in a World Cup eyes achieve things that nobody in that Tottenham sort of dressing room at the time would would say I would achieve I wasn't even good enough for you know to play in their first team which is correct at the time so to come back it felt like unfinished business if you like so so then when I scored some important goals for Spurs and we got into the champions league for the first time and we had good success um that felt like it was almost like a coming home if you like and that ended a little bit to abruptly for your liking a bit yeah yeah it did um I I liked it at Spurs it was it was funny because I uh it was deadline day and um they Harry redknapp was talking about bringing Emmanuel alviorian and it's funny how it works for a footballer but I I went to work call it work for now and I left Abby and and the kids and I said um I'll see you I'll see you this afternoon and then this afternoon never came I never came home and I'll just give her a course if we live in Stoke now it's the life of a footballer I was happy he had a two-year contract left at Tottenham but I was just you know that bit came in of 10 million pounds for a 30 year old and I can understand from a club's perspective that they wanted to accept your father they wanted to bring added by Oren and I spoke to Harry and he said obviously yeah we do want to bring out a buyer in but Daniel Levy wants to accept this bid um obviously I wasn't happy about it you know I was happy where I was I was at a great club and I wanted to stay but um certain bits and pieces happened and uh I said to have where uh we're on the move how does Daniel he's a a figure that's talked about a lot as being quite a tough tough guy he does does very um what's the word tough business that's what I hear a lot well listen this is you know star River CEO right yeah if I was around the football club I'd probably have him in charge really yeah it is a harsh businessman right but is looking after you know a billion pound asset you know he's he's not necessarily the owner but he's running it like it's his own um and I think I understand that like the the bid of 10 million came in for me I'm a I'm an asset to the business and I know I'm a person but if you look at it purely from from a business perspective I'm a depreciating asset at 30 years old potentially I went on to 38 to be fair but in his eyes maybe um Wilson Palacios was was another six millions ago so 16 million they're getting four it's good money it's good business potentially but you know I'm not I'm not stupid either so I had two years left on my deal and you must have had it been over well if you think about it he's getting 16 million right yeah um it's not yeah it's not like I know what he's getting you know I'm entitled to to see some of that if you want me to leave I did okay and it worked out for for both of us um but I don't know I don't think there's many people that come out of a maybe an incident like that with Daniel leaving and come out smiling um because he is he is Harsh um but like I say you know I had my running with him and there were times where I said no it's okay I'm happy I'll see you in the morning I'm happy at Tottenham I was comfortable there and I just said I'll see you in the morning and uh you know I suppose you've got to be prepared to hang out the phone and say say that um and then he kept coming back and telling me that I wouldn't get a squad number I wouldn't um I'll be training with the kids trying to make my life difficult uh and I was like no problem what was that initial conversation he calls you in and says you're off do they not say I'm interested in the world of football like because in the world I'm from in business there's a high degree of empathy it's a very you know conversation there's performance reviews it's very but we don't have an impending deadline day either so I'm just trying to figure out if it's like a go get your stuff you're off or if it's uh but I think I think I think it would be different if you did have a deadline day you know yeah so I I think you know that rushes people obviously but um yeah definitely your scene like there's a there's this there's this whole thing about a player should show loyalty and but there's also works both ways you know you know Club clubs at times uh if you aren't performing or you're maybe having other issues or problems off the field uh sometimes that side of it doesn't get shown as well you know where the club will quite happily get rid of you um so yeah it works it works both ways um but yeah unfortunately the the business that they're in is what is fine and selling players and winning football matches and ears of Ruthless industry um but I went into that I've realized that very quickly to be quite honest um but I'll I'll enter that with with open eyes do you do you regret leaving Liverpool yeah I'll do a bit I had a I had a great time at Portsmouth though so and some of those memories were will stay with me forever but leaving Liverpool is a difficult thing to do and um I was playing for England at the time and I was loving playing for England I was playing well and I just thought we signed philando Torres alum on pragmatic I understand my role if you know what I mean as a player he was better than me right so what do I do now uh he's always going to play formed a great partnership with Stephen Gerrard um he's on absolute fire I still believe myself I still believe I can play for England I'm still a very good player I'm just not on torres's level so I think he's not he just wasn't getting injured the whole time I was there and then you know I'd left and then he he was sold quite quickly to to Chelsea and I saw players obviously that were playing Andy Carroll yeah I mean you know Andy Carrollton you know there was Warren in and Gog players that um I felt that you know I basically I felt like I should I could have played um I haven't said that I'll never looked back I've not looked back on any of my people even say to me now like do you miss football no I don't miss football that was a time that I had that was the best I look back with such fond memories of it same at Liverpool I don't think ah should have played there for 10 years it would have been nice but it was that I still cherished the moments that I had with Liverpool and also the people I've met some great people at Portsmouth and it's a such a good club and that was just off the back of winning the FA Cup and I really thought we'd get into the to the Champions League our team was that good so it was a it was a it gave me the opportunity to play and to enjoy my football and to carry on playing for England so do I regret it it's the one thing I look back on and think could I have stayed and could have I've been a top top club for longer but I love my time at Portsmouth as well you mentioned Gerard there and I've seen you um talk about Lampard and Beckham and Gerard and carragher what was it that made those individuals great in your view what did you see I saw something in like in those players that uh that was slightly different to me like I'm not gonna I enjoy it what I was doing like I looked at the the top top level players that I played with and they never looked like they enjoyed it ever like yeah Gerard carragher a class in that John Terry Lampard like the it was always the next game you know and I think that's the top level mentality you need to have like for me at times I'd go we'd oh we've won this Landslide let's enjoy this one a little bit because we had a massive game on Tuesday they would already be thinking about yeah that was good but it's about the next one it's always about the next one and I admire that in people um and I I had a I had a Steely mentality but I also thought what are we doing it for you know what yeah of course it's about winning trophies but also it's about this moment we've just won like a huge game like in the last minute let's celebrate this moment and deal with tomorrow tomorrow whereas sometimes the top level players right here yeah like Steven Gerard prime example of that um just a constant it looked like there was there was no enjoyment obviously it was enjoyment at times but it felt like it was just the next game was was more important than enjoying this one and yeah of course it was but I was always a little bit like can I just enjoy this one a little bit um which is you know I think separates the I'd class myself as an elite Sportsman I played at the top level but I'm talking top top um and that's why they're who they are were they intense so intense yeah yeah that's what but I think that's what separates people isn't it I think you know you've got to want to um sacrifice everything and you know I did when I was when I was younger and I did throughout my career but what I'm saying is that it's that point five percent that one percent difference of um I've just already thinking about the next game of you know managers Do It um and as players sometimes we of course enjoy that win and and think about the next game when it when it comes but the top level players that I've played with like you say Lampard John Terry Steven Gerrard Jamie carrigo I put in that you know the demo United boys like the consistent winners are the ones that I think look like they don't enjoy it and um because they are constantly battling for the next the next thing well we've got I read that you said um some players couldn't deal with the intensity of a Steven gerund and a carragher and that you also were much more orientated to try and please them than the manager which I think was Rafa at the time that's right you were trying to please more concern with pleasing carragher and Gerard who are the you know like Club Captain Captain whatever of the team than the manager yeah that's true I'm trying I'm trying to put myself into the changing moments and and understand why that is what were they doing um they're local boys right they're they're Legends at the club um when I think of Liverpool I think of Stephen Gerard and and Jamie carragher um like Rapha Benitez I suppose was a top manager and he signed me and I you know I I got only good words to say about him but absolute Legends of the club and um quite ruthless in there and and quite harsh in their appraisal of some players uh so I found myself in constantly seeking their approval and my training was you know I always remember the first training session when Steve wrapped a ball into my into my feet and I miscontrolled One and it's like it's like a one look would be you know you don't do that here you're in Liverpool now it's one one Bad Touch isn't tolerated here so he said it's only a look but it was enough to to make me not do that again you know that that kind of standards are different and I think you get that from from certain players like like Stephen and Jamie would they go individuals oh yeah yeah I mean it's their Club you know and I think some people didn't understand that um the level of passion that they had for the club uh and like there's players that on you know everyone's different like you you'll know only so well like in a in a place of work if there's no two character to say you know so you need to know what what makes people tick and um some people couldn't understand the level of of passion that they had for the club of standards that they had they might have come from a more relaxed Club but unfortunately if you want to play for Liverpool you have to have a certain um way about you in a certain standard and that you've below that standard then players like Stephen and Jamie would show you very quickly in front of everyone yeah yeah yeah I mean I've seen I've seen players be signed and be written off in one training session you know really 15 million pound players coming in and like he's [ __ ] really but I never like it died I mean that was you wouldn't get many chances um but then I've also seen players be written off and then come back um which obviously in their eyes would would make them a good good fit for for Liverpool what do you think of Liverpool right now uh got the new Nunez guy coming yeah I I like Nunez I think you know he's a bit I think it's going to take him time to settle in I don't think we've seen the best of him yet but um as a club what Jurgen klopp's done there you know I think I look at young kids now who just expect Liverpool to win champ the Champions League or win the leagues um you know I suppose 30 odd years before it was a long time and Jurgen klops just changed the DNA back into you know where they were in the 80s I mean is that it's that good and yeah they're struggling a little bit now um but what he's done for that football club has has been nothing short of incredible and you know we had some great players at my time at the club but um you know what they've done as a group has surpassed anything that um you know that that spell I had Has Done Quick One some of you may know we've got a brand new sponsor for this podcast it's American Express and this partnership still blows my mind as I'm an avid user of American Express so with that being said let me tell you about their new business Platinum Card benefits firstly new card members will receive a 200 pound annual Travel credit to be spent when you spend at American Express Travel online on flights hotels and car rentals secondly if you need help with your expenses then American Express business cards offer Amex expense which is simply a brand new and free expenses Management Service for its business 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funny because as you get older you can start to feel the things you're putting into your body more and more and more um and if I if I put something into my body especially things like gluten if I put those things in my body I feel them tremendously the next day my energy levels my sleep and everything in between huel has been probably the most important partner in my health Journey because I've been in the boardrooms I've been to their offices tens and tens and tens and tens of times I've seen how they make their decisions on nutrition and I trust it most of my team that are in this room with me consume it and get the benefits of it too so if you haven't already tried your do so Jurgen Rafa um how many managers did you work work under your time um with lows over the uh almost ten God that's probably more than that probably more than that for you from working with more than 10 footballing managers at varying different levels and also at the very very top of international and Premier League football what made a really good manager um I I think there's lots of ways to manage and you know I did my coaching badges just before I retired and you try and use a little bit of the good stuff out of out of everyone but you know obviously Rapha very tactically um you know Harry Harry redknapp was a great people person you know like he understood people and what they wanted and uh he made it a nice sort of environment you know Sven the same was so relaxed you know in a pressured environment when you were going into a World Cup you just spend out that aura of calmness around you which you you needed um so like yeah great managers that I've had along the way um but very very different qualities in in all of them what about the the opposite what was the instances where you thought that's not good management um well there were certain things like uh you know with rafroth there was a tendency to be too intricate to be too um methodical to um precise at times if you could mix a little bit of raffle a bit of Harry together off of it you'd have the perfect manager because with with Rafa it was like we're playing Wolves at home and we've got Steven Gerard Javier Alonso uh Fernando Torres we've got the best back four in the league at the moment um and one of the best goalkeepers just go out and beat them you know like I don't think it's that difficult I don't think you have to play with a couple of holding Midfield players and you have to have all you know this what we do if we don't just go and beat them we're at anfield let's go and express ourselves um and that was my only criticism you know like that that I could have I think there was too many times where we we're thinking about the opposition instead of saying we're Liverpool let's go and let's go out and Ambassador them who was the best manager you played for um what is you know there's so many reasons for for each moment Jerry Francis gave him my debut Graham Rex was a big influence on my on my career um you know there's good qualities of Sven I thought Rapha was at times was incredible when some of the work they did some of the sessions and someone that's things tactically were were really eye-opening um but Harry redknapp was I I don't think I'll be sitting here without him um just because he understood football he understood a player and he understood how to get the best out of you and I think he got the best out of me uh certainly at at Portsmouth you know at Southampton at Southampton I was struggling I thought I've just had a a horrible time at Aston Villa this isn't my time in the Premier League and it's not going well I'm not playing the manager leaves Harry comes in and he goes you know this is my last chance Saloon and I'm thinking right well maybe I'm just a championship player Harry comes in it just changes like that he says you and Kevin FedEx will be in my front too uh for the rest of the season you'll score us enough goals for us to stay up and uh just that confidence that belief and what like I suppose I uh I felt my height for you know for the first time that season and I went out and scored 16 goals I think after Christmas I was on absolute fire got in the England squad and moved to Liverpool at the end of the year um so that that little spell of six months was crucial um to my development as a as a player as a person and would I be sitting here without that you know there's lots of things you look at you know would I be would I be here without that without that and there's lots of really key important moments and that was definitely one of them Harry coming in it's crazy how much is like someone believing in you at some point where maybe you don't believe in yourself can have such a huge impact on how you're behaving and ultimately what results you get yeah if you're if you're getting told that you're you know you're this and you're that you're no good you're it's not I don't I don't think you have to be a real strong character to to be able to to cope with that um and when someone comes in and goes actually no you're you're doing great stuff you know keep you like yeah it lifts you it does it makes you feel it makes you feel better and um you know that's the way I would manage and that's the way I think you have to manage these days I think players are different to to to how it was when I was coming through it was very much quite harsh industry and I think now players are a bit more you have to be a bit more of an arm around the shoulder guy you know um crack the whip kind of manager when I sat here with like Patrice and Patrice Evra Gary Neville Rio Ferdinand they all say the same thing about Sir Alex the first comment they'll make when you ask why he was so good they all say Mana management and they tell this story of how he was kind of this bespoke almost like a unique shape jigsaw piece for each person so for Nanny he was one Sir Alex Ferguson and for like for Gary Neville he was a different shape because he understood everybody and understood which plans to press how hard he could press to get the best out of them and we tend to think of like management as one been one thing like being one uh one person to everybody but even from what you've said there and what they've told me it seems that great management is being like a bit of a shape-shifter depending on who you're dealing with I think that is exactly right I think you've hit the nail on the head there and the boys that you know you talk about there of uh it's spot on because you can't treat everyone the sort of saying well you can't even train the same way if you go in you know you're telling all the players to go in the gym and you know do this do a certain weight or you know be a certain speed you can't everyone is different everyone's a different character everyone's a different mold as a player um you know certain players you can like Canton are for instance you talk about Ceramics Ferguson you know not many players could could handle cancer Alex Ferguson got the best out of Canton are because he treated him different to how he would treat Gary Neville and it's not you know it's not rocket science but it's it's something it's a quality that not many people have they're not able to adapt it's like this is my management style everyone has to fall in line with it I I don't think as a manager that is the best way to go about things it's about adapting to to people that you might need to speak to on a regular basis certain people you might need to tell you know some home truths certain people that you might need to um you know constantly get into the office or you know let someone else deal with him potentially you know you might spot a problem that it might have off the field that needs addressing you know there's so many factors to being a manager um and I think Alex Ferguson was well he's proven to be the best at that reminds me of watching that Netflix documentary about Michael Jordan and called The Last Dance brilliant brilliant [ __ ] night changed my life now I think I like I've got like a Michael Jordan thing upstairs oh yeah yeah I always you know when people ask me if I was a basketball player I actually wanted to be there it was uh not a phenomenal documentary yeah changed really really changed I'll be honest and people will be surprised to hear this I understood that Michael Jordan made shoes but I didn't really know who he was before then and when I watched that it was one of those ones where you put it on and you watch the whole thing in one sitting I was it changed my life you're younger than me I remember him clear as day they're really playing with the balls yeah I mean he I think he's the greatest Sportsman that's ever been as a controversial statement you know there's so many Sportsmen out there but what Michael Jordan did was was was unbelievable and that like I loved that kind of mentality going into that mentality of like winning at all costs and um watching that balls thing because he wasn't just Jordan like that that whole that whole team was was special that's what I was gonna say like Dennis Rodman he was a character aware which sounds to look much like Cantona in a way where yeah he would go on Benders for a couple of days yeah he goes listen that's Dennis so honestly no I want everything yeah exactly but like that's what I'm saying you're like could you Dennis was a huge part defensively of that setup with the balls and uh if you didn't have him if you didn't I don't know let him I think this is obviously like you know that probably too far but let him go to Vegas for a couple of weeks at least you get Dennis back for those games at the end that are important and I think it's obviously ridiculous for him to do that but that was his in his makeup that was in his DNA and you know is it is it better for you to let him go to a rival or do you do you accept that and when the win the titles they did all the great managers like the ones we've talked about seemed to have instances where they were okay to make an exception I guess the risk is what message does that send to the other players it's almost a bit of an unfairness if how Cantona or Dennis Rodman or whoever can go and do that yeah you're having me [ __ ] show up every day and you're pressing me in a different way that's not fair well yeah I I totally agree with you um but I don't know if the boys told this story last time but um you know the story of of of Ryan Giggs um when they turn up for a team event and he's got no tie on and Eric Canton walks in with no title pair of trainers and uh Alex Ferguson's obviously absolutely you know Kane Ryan Giggs and told him to go home and get get a tie on like who do you think you are Eric walks in sits down doesn't say a word really yeah because is Sarah cancer now you know and I think Ryan Giggs was just a this is just capable of of winning a football match is there a cancer now but where you do where where this does fall down is when those players stop performing and I've seen that I've seen players get treated differently and that's fine until they're not Eric Cantona they're not Michael Jordan they're not Tiger Woods they're not constantly winning games for you because if you set yourself up like that you you better perform and a lot quite often they can because the top players but you are you are creating a problem for yourself I think if you if you don't consistently deliver but maybe that's the reason they do consistently deliver because they are wired up differently to a lot of the rest of us which kind of makes me think about Ronaldo and what happened the other week with him storming down the tunnel etc etc now me and my friends in our group chat we all have kind of different points of view on it you know people are saying oh Sir Alex would have let him do that this whatever whatever for as someone that's been inside the changing room and probably seen seen moments where a certain player was being disruptive what was your read on that situation and the impact of it but it's in all honesty it's nothing new I think it's because it's Ronaldo it's a huge story but I've seen it over the course of my career at players who aren't playing call it throwing the toys at the prom um you know being uh disruptive uh letting their feelings be known that they're not happy with the situation um as players it's constantly happening so you don't worry because it's Ronaldo it's blown out of proportion I've seen it many times I've seen it with a particular player we're playing in a pre-season match he just walked off the pitch while we're playing you know this is absolutely ridiculous he's literally walked over down to 10 men and no one even noticed he'd gone for the first couple of minutes and um just yeah like just just fuming um but my take on the situation is I I think it's disrespectful to the players that are playing still they've just won um or just they were winning at the time uh I think it was something that he probably regrets um and I think it's something that the manager dealt with and I think dealt with well yeah that's what I was going to say because I remember you saying that good managers that you've worked with could keep the respect and that being a keyword respect now if he doesn't deal with that properly without doubt I mean listen players are on every little moment like if you don't know the answer to a particular question lie and lie well because players will if they if they sense an element of you've been unsure about a situation they'll pounce on it um you know you're talking about a manager I'm talking about management managers you know players if you're if you're a manager and you don't have control of the dress room at all times it's hard to come back from that like you need to command respect and um it's a harsh industry like lots of players with egos uh and trying to manage players that aren't playing with those egos is a tough thing to do and when you've got someone of the stature of Ronaldo like managing him not playing in the dressing room is a difficult thing to do you know put yourself in 10 hard shoes it's a it's a situation where the club have I think I believe told me he has to stay because they want to play him now he's not playing and the window's shut how do you deal with that problem it's it's going to be a huge issue but I felt we dealt with it well I think the club potentially didn't do very very well if he wasn't going to play they should have they should have sold him but they're now in that situation where yeah he's done that he's been fined I assume and he's been dropped for the next Squad but it looks like he's potentially getting back in um and that is what is is the best situation for the club because you don't want Ronaldo training with the kids away from the um away from the first team you want him in and around it because he'll be an asset potentially at the end of games or or to start some games I'm really compelled by that point you made about like as a manager if you don't know the answer to maybe a strategic thing you're better off just lying than like losing the control of the room well like say if you're in your industry right if you're an employee of yours asks you what should we do here I don't know if it's this Cutthroat as football but I I think it's better to have an answer than to say you don't know yeah yeah right so even if you don't know because it's giving them confidence even if you don't know you say we're looking into that we've worked on that you know that's something that we you know just make the moment you say you don't know I think there's an element of um yeah I think and I think it was Guardiola who said it um you know these wise words didn't come from me personally they were they were quite the owner's words and I think it was something to do with um if someone asked you a question you have an answer for them um even if you don't know it you'll you'll go do your homework and come back to to that question because you you need to be seen as a level above um The Players you need to have you know more you need to be more clued up you need to have more um intricate details on the opposition you need to know about football more than the players do um so they have that respect for you was there other times you know you talked about losing the dressing room now I hear that on like from pundits I hear uh maybe it's not a dressing room you sometimes hear that from like other commentators online but I I wondered if that's an actual thing that happens that you've observed where you go man I just [ __ ] lost this now players start questioning him you know behind his back or yeah I think I think you can see it um when did you see it uh I've seen it at certain times I don't think it'd be fair to me for me to say names um but I have seen it in certain dressing rooms where a manager has lost lost it a little bit um we had we had the situation at Stoke where we had probably the best dresser room I've ever been a part of and then we added sort of some more talented players more than sort of hard-working honest players if you like and we had a for a spell we had a really good mix of that real quality and that kind of determination and spirit um and then it went too far the other way it was you know almost almost too much quality and not enough effort determination team spirit ethics standards they slipped you know and asking things that I'd never seen before um I talked about the player walking off the pitch that happened at in that in that season and it culminated in in relegation you know so when you talk about lost the dress room rather than so I classed myself in that in that scenario because I was more of a I was an older player then and maybe I let things go things go A bit as well you know like this not my standards personally didn't drop but I let people get away with things when I was an older player like I should have been the Stephen Gerard in this situation you know I should really reply that flagged it up maybe um that wrangles with me like I I let things go I know it wasn't my job to do that but I was a an experienced player um when you say you've not seen you saw things you hadn't seen before it kind of reminded me somewhat of what I remember Rio saying about when he moved I think it was QPR from Manchester United and he saw just a completely different dressing room culture yeah exactly right well let's ask our friends already I speak to him about that time feels similar feels similar in some ways like you you have almost too many um doing what they want um you know just being late or little little things like that like being like being like on the training pitch being like um for games you know not wearing the right suit or not wearing the right track suits again whatever they want you know wearing caps when you're not supposed to um just little things like that that makes you become lacks like and we won't go a goal down two goals down and you can see players sort of you know waving their arms around and not tracking back and I remember asking a particular player like you stop trying you stopped working and he said yeah I said what and he said I did yeah I said why he said we were three down [Music] I couldn't believe it that's that you know it's 30 000 people in a stadium right that paid to watch us play and you've given up and I know it's hot it's horrible those games they're horrible you just but at least you got those run round um and that's that's when I knew if we were in big trouble it's funny that it's the small the small things like just yeah they will light up does that not start with a manager though in those situations where the manager is just not calling it out enough he's not punishing you know he lets one thing slide let's two things slide before you know it you're at the bottom of the [ __ ] slope yeah that was exactly what happened um there was certain things that were let go and you're like well and then you feel like you can get away with more with more with more and there was a certain thing you'd have to run after a game if you didn't play so that time like I was on I was 37 years old you know I was sometimes I was on the bench and I'd be out there running and you know there was a younger player not not out after the game doing this Fitness work and I came in I'm like what's going on you know why why am I 37 I'm out here running after a game and this 25 year old is is not which I didn't want to he didn't want to didn't want to right so these are the standards I'm talking about so you've got to that's that's you've been asked to do it you don't pick and choose whether you do it or not but that was allowed to happen anyway it happened again anyways this particular player said right because he hasn't run after um the game we're all in on Sunday right so the whole team come in on Sunday um we were coming this is supposed to be our day off so we're all in training and the particular player didn't turn up for training right so we're all in because of because of him and uh and he doesn't turn up so I mean you can imagine what the what the lads are like but just little I say little things I mean that was a big thing but just standard slipping and listen you know it all ends everyone knows where it ends ends badly when did you decide that your football career was over tell me about that decision and that that time in your life uh yeah I was lucky I got the opportunity to get out of that that dresser room that I was in at slope which was difficult um and I got the opportunity to play for the exact opposite at Burnley and I finished in the Premier League and I knew that I was done that season because I was on the Venture lot and there was players playing ahead of me that I knew should have been ahead of me and my thoughts myself I am just a plan B now um you know I'm coming at the end of games and I still felt fit I still felt I could have an impact but I knew inside my own head so I told my family I told um you know I told Abby and I told you know the kids are still very young and uh we all went to the game so they you know they didn't all come out you know a young baby you know they didn't often come to the games now I didn't play much so they all came and it was nice because I knew no one else knew but I knew that it was my last game of football was against Arsenal um at at Burley and uh all the family came on and you know when he walked around the pitch at the end and I've got a picture at home on the wall of me and it was three kids we had at Target four now I believe what not but the three of us um on the pitch and a lovely picture of me walking out is my last game of professional football I must have played you know 600 700 games it was my last game I knew it but no one else did um but yeah lovely picture a lovely moment and then it just sort of comes flooding in that it's it's over 20 years I played I left school at 16 I retired at 38. 22 years every day of my life doing something that you laughed I looked back on it with such fond memories I was so lucky to have played um in an era that was was full of great players I managed to play for England and you know I probably exceeded what I thought I would could ever achieve so always look back on it fondly when people ask me um no do you miss it no I don't miss it I cherished the moments I had I knew that was your dad there that day I know you played a huge yeah that was there that day yeah and uh you know he was the one because he was there every single I don't think he missed a game and he was part of my Superstition uh bizarrely he was part of you know if I didn't see him before a game I feel unnerved you know like I'd feel like where is he and don't get me wrong there were times where I was on the bench towards the end and he got a season ticket QPR and deservedly so you know I didn't want to put him through that um but it was yeah I mean he was he was with me or stepping away he came to every game yeah yeah I really didn't I don't think he missed many handful you know of those 600 700 right from when I was a kid um so yeah it was like a comfort blanket when I saw and he would he would watch me not even a kickoff he would watch me he'd be the first in the stadium I would walk out at um before the warm-up and I'd see him and I'd always see him you know six or five I'd always be able to see him uh and he'd give me a little wave and he'd watch how warmed up and then after the game he'd even say like I knew you'd have a good game in the warm-up because he'd always watch even the warm-up so yeah when your career ended did you ever ever have a conversation with him about um about your journey in football I guess was there ever like a any conclusive conversations about how it all went and yeah you know what like uh we had sort of like a like a bit of a retirement um video if you like and I've got to cover a load of ex-players and managers that I played with which was nice and laid it put it on a big screen um but I don't think I've ever sat down and discussed at length um my career I mean life's too busy in it you know like I look at I've got a you know a wall like you have and a few sort of accolades matchables ignorant caps on the wall only in one particular room I only allowed like a little dungeon room um but I've got them on and I look back and I look got some pictures on there and I look at the moments and I think like they were some great times um but like I say life moves quick and I love I love what I'm doing now and I've gone straight into doing other things and I was very conscious of that like I planned I planned a little bit of that you know I planned while I was still playing I did the podcast and I did the the first book that I did I like and I did my coaching badges as well so my coach I thought you know maybe I'll be a manager I didn't know but I just basically I was so scared of waking up on that Monday because every player that I've I've ever played with says to me like when you're retired like you've forgotten like that you it's difficult it's hard to get your head around it keep playing as long as you can you always hear these horror stories so I was so worried about it I just thought right I need to do everything now before I retire and I think it was the best thing I ever did was to stay was to do things while I was still playing to to test things out and see what I want to go into and start building that bridge I guess a little bit Yeah to the other side if you like and um like I say the book and the podcast just went bang and that I just got propelled into a into a world in the in the media really was there ever a moment when you were after you'd retired where you where you had a bit of a down day and you thought you know because I remember reading I think in your book where you talk about how you spend those 20 years like everything sorted for you your schedule sorted you know where you're going to be you kind of know there's so much structure in your life and then suddenly the structure's gone and a real clear sense of like orientation and Collective purpose is gone was there ever a post-retirement moment where you go ugh I don't think I've had that really and I feel really lucky like because I know so many players that have really struggled since they retired and I feel so lucky in in what I'm doing now like I'd love to sit here and I've got to be honest with you no I can't I I have I haven't had that and what I what I don't like is not having that that structure like for for instance I know exactly where I'm going to be on September the 16th on you know February the 12th I know where I'm going to be I know where I'm going to be training like now I couldn't tell you what I'm doing next week like things come up things change um I don't like that I like I've been institutionalized if you like I'm in a I like getting told on a Monday we do this and I don't wanna it was I suppose for 20 years I didn't have to grow up yeah you know now I do um I came straight from school to people no they should take our passports offers you know we won't even allowed to they didn't trust us enough to to get ourselves to the airport you know it was that's how football is everything's done for you so you can purely concentrate on football and I I quite like that in a weird way because you you solely focus on one thing whereas now there's lots of different things that I do um and lots of choice choices yeah like lots of decisions yeah it's like being an adult it's not great was the guy who was um imprisoned when he was younger for a crime he didn't commit sentence to life came out and he was telling me it was like honestly when I came out it's like I went to a supermarket and there's like seven types of beans yeah and he stood in the supermarket and what the [ __ ] do I do what do I do he hated it him and his partner would Clash because he was never used to making decisions in prison you get one type of [ __ ] beans so true love and I like that I honestly like with with football like you are you that you are told what had to be what to do at all times until you're on a football pitch or even something really that as well you know your manager's telling you what to do but I quite liked it in some ways but obviously the freedom is great in other ways you know like I have at Christmas now I can spend time with the kids if I choose to have a week off it during the winter I can have that you know there's there's pros and negatives to both are you a workaholic um I think I've got a good work ethic definitely um without doubt I enjoy it I enjoy getting up and having a purpose do you feel like you're out of balance though yeah I'm finding the balance really tough okay yeah same really tough yeah um obviously you know speak to other about this as well because we I struggle like I'll have one week where I'm constantly on the go and um and then we'll Wicked you know a little bit quieter but yeah I sort of soldered the dream of retirement as being retirement and it hasn't quite worked out that way because I love doing what I'm doing where did you sell her well I sold it like we'd be getting the gym every day you know little juices it would be on dog walks I said you know they're just Rome yeah we'll go through we'll go quality time um and yeah it's not quite worked out that way but she knows I'm passionate about what I do I'm very I love what I do now and um I'm still involved in football which I love you know like I like I say I do the podcast that I absolutely love doing and various other bits and pieces come up and I'm in a fortunate position I know I'm in a fortunate position to be able to pick and choose the stuff that I do and I do it purely for enjoyment um and of course you know I try and make it as the best it can be and so I can earn off it but the the main focus was the same as my football career really was to do something that you enjoy and I'm lucky in the fact that I I can still do that is your main um dispute in your relationship because this is the answer for mine is is this issue of quality time it's like that's the thing I struggle with most is doing all this stuff and constantly and then being there to be to give this person quality time that they want where you just go for the [ __ ] walk and you just do nothing it seems like nothing but obviously there's something it's something picnic but you must find that hard like I I find that hard to but she's the same you know like um I think it'll be easy to say that uh I don't know like there's a misconception of um maybe footballers wives that you know they're just relax all day and you know she's so driven and she drives me to be honest and she's uh I run all my decisions past her and I don't think a lot of people know that about her but she's like uh she's on it and um you know so that's that's good in the fact that if we go for a walk together we'll have some quality time together but we both won't switch off together you know like we're still bouncing ideas off each other and um and I'm glad that I can have someone like that so you know yeah of course we switch off at times but we we're still we're still very on it both of us so your podcast absolute smash here a lot of a lot of ex-players ex-athletes have started podcasts I can't think of any that have risen to the heights that yours has risen to Mike Tyson has a great podcast in the United States um it's really been a bit of a cult phenomenon the show and as you kind of said you know I've heard you talk about the drivers here a few times and it's always you're always you know saying very nice things and saying that you know our production and stuff is is um is great but it is like a couple of lads in a pub chatting yeah I suppose that is that is our thing I I think it was it is a reflection of me it's what I like to do so and I think I suppose we could now because things have gone well upgrade our setup a little bit um but it doesn't it feels like we need to stay where we are we love being in the pub we like um you know having a bit of a drink while we do it um and it feels certainly during lockdown you know we have lots of comments from listeners and people writing in and they feel like they're in there with us you know and it feels like obviously this is a different kind of whole class you know more serious more enlightening maybe um but I try and I try and take people inside the world of what it's like being a footballer and it's a mad funny world it is and and of course it's light-hearted but hopefully it's a little bit informative as well and uh when I say I love doing it it's genuinely the most fun when I say to web um I'm going to work she's like are you joking I've been there with the four children and I'm going to uh to a pub in town um to record with uh Lads that I get on really really well with and um just talking football I suppose that is that is the you know for a lot of people certainly in my world that's the ideal job and I'm I feel very fortunate I've got it the podcast offers people that kind of that sense of connection and Community like they are in the pub with you um which some people don't have unfortunately these days and in a world that's getting lonelier but at the same time it's not just like it's not just banter I remember seeing the episode with Prince William and where you talked about mental health and um those kind of topics and I think one of your your co-hosts I can't remember which one shared um some of the feedback that you guys get from the audience that are listening that particular episode with Prince William how the [ __ ] did you get it from a fresh start how did you how did you get Prince William to come on I have a point with you on the podcast there are points in this podcast like obviously like where it all started from I Didn't Have You know I was just telling a story I don't know what a podcast was you know obviously now I know that you know there's a huge industry of things but I I was just talking literally as I was talking to my how I talked to my mates and uh obviously yeah we built up like a like a big following and then people started calling us about coming up about coming on um and that was a call we had from the palace was was I promise you it was you know we had we had there was one point there was like we had Elton John I'd called and uh and Prince William had called not not personally but you know their team of people had called us about coming on and obviously uh without no that's a different story it was funny but um with Prince William you know we made it happen and we ended up going to Kingston Palace um which was an amazing day out because we we took it you know our our group of lads and we had a we had a beer over the road well we went in and then um you know Prince William I talk about the samrat you know the Indian restaurant um that I used to go to with my mates as a kid and when Prince William brought in the delivery um and put it down and I was thinking if what you know my mates if you used to go there as kids my family and you know he's doing this and it was just so surreal um but like you say we got to talk about a range of topics and I suppose you know certainly in football there's a lot because there's a stigma in football of um you know it's very Macho and you have to you know you have to be um you have to man up you know like you you have to there's this stigma and I think that this is why sort of the target audience for Prince William and his heads I think his heads together or heads up Charity um for mental health is targeting the right people if you like the people that don't speak out um so I think he wanted to tap into sort of our audience that would be very much uh don't show any weakness um you know that football world if you know what I mean so yeah I think that was something that he wanted to to touch touch base with I've done something with him called a um uh a a team talk I think it was a royal team talk I think it was called on BBC and we talked about you know mental health and stories and football that's the first time I shared my issues is um you know I'd never ever talked about anything I was one of those people that kept everything so yeah it was a nice it was a it was great it was a great experience for us as a podcast and and I think hopefully it helped a few people as well you talked about on that podcast going into the changing room and like opening up to your teammates at one point yeah I mean I I found it really difficult to um I'm one of those people that keeps everything inside right I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't talk about I see Abby every single night like picking up the phone to my friends and chatting about anything I mean I just don't do that I don't I wouldn't dream of picking up the phone and and ex you know talk about a problem um but since these kinds of things that I've done since that podcast since uh you know I've done a a various you know the um November campaign I've worked with them I've worked with uh various kind of men's mental health Charities and they it is it does make you think and you know I have started doing more stuff I have started you know reaching out to my friends and you realize actually that people aren't always people say they're always all right but they're not there's something I've realized I think the quote from that from that podcast with um Prince William was you gone into the dressing room you'd shared how you were feeling with your teammates and instantly you kind of felt lighter because of it you felt better for opening up yeah that's that's something that I definitely found like I've when was that um no that was the royal team talk we opened up so it was me yeah Thierry Henry um Danny Rose who was quite open with his mental health problems um Gareth Southgate uh I think Dan Walker that was the presenter and Prince William and like when when you actually get like a like a group of lads there talking like Prince Prince William wasn't Prince William you know Thierry Henry wasn't Thierry Henry it was just a group of blokes talking and you know Prince William's talking about bereavement and you think you know oh my God like you don't I don't know it's like that's not real it's like a not real life but you think actually when he's sitting there he's just a lad he's lost his mum like yeah like it was an amazing talk because you're not seeing her as Princess Diana and you're not seeing him as the Future King of England you're seeing him as a man who's struggling who's lost his mum um and I think sometimes when you read things and you you look at things like I say it's that it's that thing of playing football and not realizing that they're actually it's on a human level it's just he's just a fella that's that's lost his that's lost his mum and struggled with that over time and you when you say you you opened up you're referring to the stuff you've talked about today with yeah me personally yeah I opened up about uh yeah looking different a bit you know like and getting the heckled and being sort of that impressionable teenager and sort of dealing with that with that kind of pressure of looking different if you like um bizarrely that's become sort of like my superpower now uh it's become sort of me it's like unrecognizable I am um I think people understand like all my insecurities if you like I've been what has probably made me successful in in the stuff that I've gone on to do when you do look back at your success and in hindsight and you go okay maybe this was a big part of it this was part of it what are the the key things that in hindsight you go that's why I was successful because earlier on you said like most of the football players especially the strikers didn't look like you but you were still successful you still played at the very top of the game you still had the England caps you still scored all those goals for England so what was it about you um I I listen I had I had ability you know I did I did I felt like I was a good player and I worked on that like that was something that if I was going to be tall I wasn't going to be this what everyone thought I was going to be you know um which was that big Target you can lump the ball up to you know I wanted to have technical abilities I worked on that I constantly worked on that um so that was obviously something that stood me out um and then I had to work on my on my heading um because I was incredibly tall but I didn't have to jump as a young lad and then when you get to play professional football you then realized that you know people are going to jump they're going to beat you in the air and it looks ridiculous if you're six foot seven and you're losing headers so I had to work on on my heading and obviously it's determination it's the the world to succeed um it's the desire um it's the ability to deal with knockbacks um that stand you out probably from from the rest not backs ever did you ever have a experience with especially through the period with Liverpool where you when it's 18 games without scoring and the various twists and turns throughout your career did you ever experience anxiety uh yeah I'd say so I mean listen I'm not an expert on this field um I I wouldn't say I'm an anxious person um like I say I'm a glass half full kind of person but um I would say of course like in football in terms of course I was anxious I was snatching at uh chances um and was I anxious off the field yeah couldn't switch off from it couldn't stop thinking about it couldn't sleep so couldn't sleep yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't have been able to sleep um certainly after games but I found that difficult anyway that the kind of buzz that you get from playing a match under lights especially is so difficult to sleep after that I think physically impossible at times where are you now in terms of your mental well-being and your mental health yeah good good yeah like I would never I would never um I don't think I'd ask myself as ever as having problems um I've had issues that I've had to manage personally like everyone has I think but I'd say I'm in a good place I just need to get the balance right between um you know this new field that I mean if you like and and family life you know I need to I need to get the right the right balance when I'm working enough to sort of satisfy that that hunger to keep going um and not miss what is important you know which is my kids which are at the door and I want to see I want to see grow up um and I want to be here at the Forefront of that I want to be hands on you know so I've got to try and work that balance out something that's my biggest problem I always you know I think I always hear this voice which is like when is enough enough like when is enough going to be enough like podcast is going great business is going great you've done achieve loads of things like um what else do you need when is enough enough it's difficult one because I I think it's that for me it's about it's about like the work but I was about enjoying it and um you know if it stops being fun and I think that's the time to to call it quits crouchfest 19th of November yeah 19th of November it's um I mean I've seen it because I watched all the videos from like 2019. yeah that's right [ __ ] life guys this is so much fun yeah but the thing is like people buy tickets and not have a clue what they're letting themselves and um it is one of the one of the best things that we've ever done and we just thought we'd scale it up this time last time we had Liam Gallagher on I had Catherine Jenkins singing the Champions League Anthem or the fella that wrote The Champions League Anthem spoke to us uh Tom Grant and knew me at six we had um you know people dressed as referees fancy dress um it was absolute Carnage and uh yeah now we're at Wembley Arena we've scaled it up Wembley around Wembley Arena yeah so I mean we've probably bitten off more than we can shoot but yeah great guests and and looking forward to it so much what what what are you promising for this Crouch first well what that's the thing we don't promise anything okay so you don't say anything you really don't say a word to anyone and we've got obviously I mean some of the things that we've we've been getting up to has been uh a lot of fun and some of the knockbacks that we've had have been been priceless because we're asking things that Wembley Arena has never seen before um but yeah I'm honestly I can't tell you how much fun the last one was and if it was hot if it's half as good it will be it'd be a great event well everyone listening can there's a few tickets left so you can go they're probably they might not be by the time this comes out but you can go buy tickets online for Crouch first it looks like I mean I watched the highlights from 2019 and it looked like it looked like a huge group of mates pissed having a laugh that's exactly what it is yeah I can't dress it up anymore but you're welcome to come if I'm here I'll come for sure for sure they look really really good what is is what is your goal now what is next for you you've all these things going on in your life the media stuff you're presenting on BT etc etc you've got the podcast you've got this amazing book you've just written well it's just come out in October I believe how to be an ex-footballer um the reviews for this book are insane much of the stories you've told um told me today some of them are in here some of them are in your previous book but both books are Sunday Times top bins bestseller um what is next what is this yeah I like I say like this um I'm finding my feet I have no clue I had no clue where I was gonna go I I didn't know what angle to to go for um I I'm doing things because I enjoy them and like when you say what is your goal it it I don't want to come on here Diary of a CEO right and everyone's got a goal everyone's got a purpose everyone knows what they're gonna do I have to be honest with you I don't I don't have a goal I I don't have I don't want to be doing this in five years or that in five years my goal was achieved like all I wanted to be was a football player all I wanted to do was be uh was do it at any level every single day and then I felt like I did that I achieved it I achieved more than I ever thought I would and now everything is you know that that's happening to me is is the things that I'm enjoying and their roots and avenues that I'm taking but there's no particular goal um I don't know that might be difficult for you to not to to understand but I I just can't I'm I haven't got a a motive or a plan I'm just living each day and enjoying each day um that I'm given and I feel like I'm blessed in the situation I'm in but this is genuine that is the most genuine thing I can tell you I don't have a an end goal I think you'd be surprised how um common that is I've you know I think people think that I have everything figured out or so like a North star a God but I've said on this podcast a million times that I've never written a business plan in my life it's really about like doing my best today and doing that every day and kind of being open to the things that come along because goals can also be really unhelpful in the sense of like it might make you miss an opportunity if you had a goal when you left football to become a coach you might miss the opportunity to do the podcast or all these other things well I feel like it's also now reminded in some way you go like you have the end goal but like you say these missed opportunities like every like I did the book I did the podcast and things took off and then opportunities come off the back of that and as long as those things are going well the opportunities will continue to come and then you might find that you enjoy something else or a different Avenue and that is where I'm going I'm on a journey that I have no clue where it's going but I'm enjoying it and a long way at last at the start you mentioned that the way you were treated when you're younger looking a bit different meant that you used kind of self-disparagement criticizing yourself making a joke at yourself first as a defense mechanism much of the reason why people love your books love your podcast is because they're like really really funny and they make people laugh and even from like hanging out with you today for a couple of hours whatever you are one of those real funny people I mean on the front of your book it says a comedy genius I didn't like that by the way yes you did it no but I it's interesting I just find it interesting as an observation that the thing that people criticized you for created equality in you which is seems to be from my very naive assumption like critical now to your success and why people are so fond of you is that an accurate assessment oh there's a spot on um you know I sort of I my kind of like humor and being able to laugh at myself was a was a self-defense mechanism where people were trying to take the mick out of me I would take the mick out myself in a better way than they were about to do so that makes me self self-deprecating and I think that is very uncommon for a footballer to be self-deprecating it was groundbreaking and I don't think it should be but let's be honest I think it probably it was a bit you know not many players that play for England let their guard down at any point or want to criticize themselves um or have a laugh at themselves and that and that that is something Navy that has set me apart that I'm aware of um from other players and that is not me being contrived or you know trying to force an agenda I think anyone who has played with me over the course of 20 years will say to you this is the person that they they knew in the dressing room but I think I'm able to to Showcase that a little bit more by being less guarded because I haven't got a football club uh telling me to not talk too much or you know you're a footballer shut up you're like now I can do whatever I like and fortunately I've been in a position where the hospital is the general public or fans that are are buying into what I'm doing are enjoying it and um you know for as long as they are enjoying it I'll continue to do it and when they're not I'll [ __ ] off it reminds me a lot of um Lewis Capaldi who I sat with where he's just seems to just be doing whatever the [ __ ] he wants to do yeah admire him so much you know like he's the kind of thing that I you know I love to see like and I watched it obviously recently I think he was on Jonathan Ross and uh I was brilliant like he's hilarious and he looks like he wants he's enjoying what he's doing and um you know he's himself and I think that is what I'm doing and I'm thankfully um people are in hopefully enjoying it 100 they are enjoying it I think that's a huge understatement and it seems to be the case from the people I've sat here with on this podcast um seems to be the case that those that are themselves that are able to build a life based on being themselves are living the most sustainable and fulfilling lives it's [ __ ] difficult not being yourself for a long period of time and it's not fun right yeah well you can't get tripped up if you're if you're being yourself yeah you caught the guard never slips does it but it feels like a risk to some people well let's see why yeah it's a risk if not hey you're right you're actually right it's only a risk if you're a [ __ ] but you're completely right um be someone else if you're one of those [Laughter] we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they're gonna ask it for and the question that's been left for you is what moment has caused you to be the most afraid in your life it's difficult I think I've been in situations where um none of this matters does it let's be honest right I I'm thinking about football terms I was thinking straight away I went to like what about when I didn't score when I did this when I wasn't going to make it as a footballer like or like none of that matters does it um your family's the most important thing and when you have a a scare personally or you're one of your you know close people your wife or your kids has an issue um that is when you're the most scared that you'll ever be and I think you know I've had I've had those those worries um and and that's when you you really realize what's what's important obviously when the you know the the pandemic and you know we were in lockdown and that kind of thing and you realize actually none of it matters you know like it was just it was I had my family and we were fortunate obviously to be in a in a nice house and I just thought you know what we are incredibly lucky even if we don't have if we don't have anything we've got each other you know and that I think that was I think some most scared when someone when when you have a scare with someone close to you which we have had and um you get through that that's that's the Michigan that's exactly what came to mind for me it was when I think it must have been 10 and my mum called me and told me I believe she called me and told me she had cancer in her breast because she had found a lump and then it transpired it was assist it was fine but that period of like several days believing that my mum's gonna die when I'm 10. yeah nothing I mean everything else in comparison and you realize that [ __ ] all matters as you said yeah like that like it's so weird like I went to like football then like straight away then you actually think oh wait a minute that doesn't matter does it no it's really scared I've been is when you have a scare in the family without doubt Peter thank you thank you for so many reasons thank you for inspiring me in this podcast you've been a big inspiration for us you know like the production is one thing I know you've commented on the production before but what you have is something that's so like authentic and Brilliant and that's the impossible thing to create to find like a authentic formula that's resonant with with the audience that you have and give so much to them it's like it's it's a lot and it's not [ __ ] easy and you know I I watched your playing career I've watched you know I've watched you play in all the clothes you've played in the thing that I'm like that is [ __ ] unbelievable is actually what you've been able to do since you know and that says a lot because you've got to Champions League finals and you paid for the best clubs in the land but watching what you've done since I think is even tougher um that's just my perspective and I've taken a huge amount of inspiration from that your book is amazing Crouch first is obviously going to be amazing because you guys just have a magic that is like um impossible to replicate and so you got you know like it's fun to watch you guys it's really really fun to watch your journey and to not know where it's going to go I mean like Prince William walking in you're in this Pub toilet like oh you know I just don't it's [ __ ] brilliant and it's it's perfectly authentically brilliant so thank you for coming and doing this it's a huge compliment to us that you come and do it and it's been great to chant you and meet you no my pleasure thanks for having me I really appreciate it I'm just laughing because I like smiling I'm not a professional setup [Laughter] so much [Music] as you know Intel are now one of the sponsors of this podcast and I'm here to tell you about one of the latest Intel Evo designs I've been recently using this laptop and honestly I've been blown away by how user-friendly it is to use Intel has spent thousands of hours studying the way people use their laptops and then collaborating with leading PC makers to co-engineer optimize and test these laptops to create the Intel Evo platform which delivers the ultimate mobile experience laptop designers only received the Intel Evo badge after they've been rigorously tested to pass Intel's own strict requirements and deliver an ideal combination of features such as long lasting fast charging battery Wi-Fi connectivity standards and a super slim design the result is a premium laptop that delivers an ideal combination of features in the coming weeks I'm going to break down exactly what features you get when you buy an Intel Evo certified laptop and how they've made my life on the go 10 times easier to find out more about the Intel Evo platform go to intel.co.uk Evo and let me know how you get on if you see me wearing jewelry there's one thing thing you will know for sure this has been the case since before their sponsor of this podcast is that I'm wearing crafter Jewelery their pieces are my favorite they are my favorite and as I said if you ever see me wearing jewelry I guarantee you it's crafted jewelry their new collection here is my favorite ever it's the most affordable brilliant versatile wonderful high quality jewelry I've ever seen and as I said the meaning of the pieces as you can see if you look at some of these pieces for me of course it's interpretation but optimism um Freedom those are the kind of hints I get through my favorite piece of Crafters of all time is actually a similar piece to the one that Conor McGregor has Conor McGregor has a crafted piece um and it's of the lion if you're looking for male jewelry maybe for Christmas or Black Friday or something like that and you're looking for stuff that is high quality that is high in meaning and that is aesthetically beautiful and on Trend look no further than crafted [Music] oh [Music] my God [Music]