Video summary
Palestine's Ambassador Zumla has hailed recent sanctions announced by the UK government against illegal settlements as a pivotal turning point in British-Palestinian relations, marking a decisive shift from mere condemnation to concrete action. He emphasizes that this move represents a long-overdue alignment of British values with tangible policy, particularly given the ongoing genocide in Gaza and state-sponsored terrorism in the West Bank. The Foreign Secretary's clear definition of the occupation as unlawful and acts of ethnic cleansing is seen as a crucial foundation for future progress, especially following the International Court of Justice's 2024 ruling that found genocide plausible against Israel. This development is viewed not just as a British moment but as the beginning of an international momentum, with twelve countries aligning behind the UK's decision to enforce international law more rigorously.
While acknowledging the significance of targeting settlements rather than the entire state of Israel, Ambassador Zumla clarifies that this is merely the start of a necessary process rather than a complete solution. He argues that once the illegality of the occupation is established, the focus must shift to identifying and dismantling the entire ecosystem supporting it, including the state actors providing weapons and tacit support for settlers. The ambassador notes that while previous governments targeted only violent individuals, this new approach addresses the systemic nature of the issue. He dismisses concerns about timing related to Israeli elections, asserting that the problem extends far beyond Benjamin Netanyahu or current political cycles, involving decades of consistent policy across various Israeli leaderships and a society that has yet to develop a critical mass demanding an end to the occupation.
Looking ahead, the ambassador outlines that the primary focus for the Palestinian movement should be on working closely with the UK government, parliament, and representatives to ensure these commitments are fully implemented and expanded. He stresses that while years of street protests and public activism have been vital in building pressure, the next phase must translate this support into practical political results through sustained engagement with Members of Parliament. The goal is to move beyond protest as an end in itself and instead use activism as a tool to inflict real change, ensuring that international pressure effectively cuts off the oxygen sustaining the illegal occupation. He draws parallels to the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, noting that dismantling such regimes was a gradual, incremental process requiring persistent international enforcement of justice rather than quick fixes or negotiations between unequal parties.
Ultimately, Ambassador Zumla expresses deep appreciation for the leadership shown by Prime Minister Keir Starmer and Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband, viewing their actions as evidence of moral courage and a genuine desire for justice in Palestine. He acknowledges that the path forward will be long, painful, and draining, but insists that this new beginning offers hope after years of stagnation. The ambassador reiterates that the Palestinian people's steadfastness and heroism have inspired the world, but now the international community must match this inspiration with decisive action to end the occupation. He concludes by affirming that true peace cannot be achieved through internal negotiations alone but requires the enforcement of a just peace based on international law, solidarity from the global movement, and the unwavering commitment to hold all responsible parties accountable for their roles in perpetuating the conflict.
Read the full video transcript
Ambassador Zumla, thank you so much for
for joining us today. Um, let's begin
just, I suppose, with your initial
thoughts on yesterday's statement. How
significant was that?
>> Significant. very a turning point in the
British Palestine relations in the sense
that after all these years, decades,
given the role of Britain in the agony
of the Palestinian people and the Nakba
and all that followed and the British
mandate, you have a British government
that came out and said, "Okay, let's
call a spade a spade. the whole entire
ecosystem of occupation is unlawful and
we must take the necessary actions uh to
match our values and to match our
policies with action that has been
lacking for a long time. Yes indeed it
is long overdue but it came at a moment
when we needed the most when genocide is
ongoing in Gaza. Genocide did not end in
Gaza when there is state sponsored
terrorism in the West Bank and the land
is being taken day by day. So the UK had
recognized the state of Palestine last
year as you know. But you cannot just
recognize a state that its land is being
stolen piece by piece. You need to take
the actions necessary to enforce that
recognition and to move from
condemnation to action and to move from
recognition to realization realization
of that. So it's an important moment. uh
language matter does matter and to see
the foreign secretary of the UK
clearly defining that this occupation is
unlawful clearly saying that this these
are acts of ethnic cleansing organized
sponsored by the state. These are also
acts of terrorism organized and
mentioning that okay the UK government
cannot decide on genocide. But talking
about genocide uh and referring to
international courts and you know that
the international court of justice has
already decided 2024 that the crime of
genocide is plausible to have been
committed by Israel and has placed
Israel uh uh uh uh on trial uh for that
crime and therefore yes it's an
important day it's let's not look at the
half empty today let's look at the half
full uh there will be loopholes
But I believe it was a very strong
foundation on which we can build and you
know the pull power of the UK of Britain
um which has seen 12 countries coming
together 11 plus Britain major European
countries international partners around
the decision of the UK. So this seems to
be the beginning of not just a British
momentum but an international momentum
which is very important. What matters
the most is that finally we see British
values being matched with British
action.
>> And yeah, action I suppose is the
important word there, isn't it? Because
lots of people who are supporters of
Palestine who have been out protesting
over the past 3 years and more. I think
many of them were concerned that Andy
Bernham would come in, Ed Milliban would
come in and we'd get a change of
rhetoric um ultimately because the
Labour party is scared that they've lost
so many voters. But when it comes to
concrete action,
you know, there maybe wouldn't be so
much change. But do you think that these
announcements sort of prove once and for
all that actually this is concretely a
very different government to the last
one that was in power?
>> It proves that Britain can. That's what
it proves and the international
community can. It proves what was
missing for all these years. We never
had an issue with the law. The law was
very clear. International law was always
clear. We never had an issue with the
institutions of the law, the UN, the
General Assembly, the Security Council,
the IC, the ICJ. We had a problem with
the enforcement of the law. And yes,
indeed, yesterday was a moment of hope,
Mike, of hope that finally great powers
are getting it or want to get it. It is
about enforcement. So action matters the
most. Yes, this is a new government only
seven weeks in and to see this momentum
and to lend our issue this priority. We
very much commend the prime minister,
Prime Minister Andy Bernham and foreign
secretary Ed Malibant for showing that
leadership, statesmanship, courage and
for wanting to see justice in Palestine.
Of course, we commend this and of course
we commend that it was not just another
statement. It was not just another
speech, it was action. And to say that
uh ban is not going to only be about
goods but also services and you know
settlements would not survive all these
decades without the tacet complicit
support of the international community
certain players and actors in the
international system including the UK.
But I have to say, Michael, today to you
and to your followers, it's a powerful
beginning and we have waited for it for
a long time. And we believe that this
government has provided something that
was missing for a long time and we
absolutely commend them for it.
>> And I take it from what you say that
you're disappointed by the line that Ed
Milliban said, the sanctions regime will
target illegal settlements and
settlement expansion, not Israel. So
you're saying they this is a significant
move but it hasn't gone far enough
because you would like them to target
you know Israel as as a country as the
government organizing this.
>> Well this will be a work in progress and
you know once you have defined that
occupation is unlawful. So who's doing
occupation? It is right. Once you say
that there are ethnic cleansing who's
doing the ethnic cleansing and there is
state sponsored terrorism and settler
terrorism. Who is sponsoring this? Who
is paying for this? Who's providing the
weapons for this? It was the Israel
security minister handed these settlers
the rifles in real time and I'm sure you
saw that Bing. So we will be discussing
all this. What we needed was a a moment
of clarification about definitions about
language and about action. Now, of
course, not all not all actions have
been declared, but if you think this
occupation is unlawful in line with the
International Court of Justice ruling in
July 2024,
then we will talk, we will cooperate.
Now, we are partners to see what other
measures that are needed to make sure
that this unlawful occupation ends once
and for all. You see for the last so
many years British governments have been
targeting even US administration have
been targeting violent settlers
individuals. Yesterday was not about
individual settlements. Yesterday was
about the entire ecosystem. That is what
matters. The rest is details significant
details. There is a lot of work to be
done. But once we have established that
fact I think the road ahead is clearer
today as it was two days ago. And I know
there's been a fair amount of push back
to say that this was badly timed because
Israeli elections are coming up and this
might help um Netanyahu if it creates a
rally around the flag effect in Israel.
I know you debated Malcolm Riiffken
yesterday who was suggesting this
announcement should have been held off
for 2 months or so until after those
elections. I mean what's what's your
response to that? From my point of view,
this has nothing to do with elections
and this has nothing to do with
Netanyahu himself even and this
government. This has to do with Israel.
This has to do with decades long same
policy. If people think the problem is
only Netanyahu, they need to think
again. Mike,
what else? Who are the main contenders
in the Israeli political arena now?
Eisen, I've heard him many times saying
that this is not a time for a
Palestinian state. We will not allow it.
Laid Laid who is seen to be the most
progressive was a prime minister and
during his time settlement expansion
increased in historic numbers
unprecedented. Bennett another main
contender was the chair of the
settlement council in the occupied West
Bank.
Liberman another main contender
lives in a settlement. So this isn't
about Natalya and show me where is the
the critical mass in Israel that really
calls for an end to the occupation, an
end and dismantlement of the
settlements. And show me a critical mass
in Israel that would vote for a
government that would actually bring
about a an Israeli government that will
say we recognize the legitimate rights
of the Palestinian people. We shall work
towards ending this occupation and we
accept and recognize the state of
Palestine. Until that happens, the
conversation should not be about
Netanyahu or elections. The conversation
should be why did the Israeli society
get to this point where they don't see
us. You know, there were many
demonstrations, hundreds of thousands of
Israelis recently uh four years ago
against Netanyahu, but all for domestic
issues, you know, the judicial reform. I
haven't seen a movement in Israel about
us, about ending occupation after all
these years. So that's the significance
of yesterday. It is related to changing
the calculus altogether. So hopefully
the Israeli people one day will realize
that you cannot have the cake and eat it
too. The aim of the game is to have the
international community put so much
pressure on Israel that they have to
actually change their policy. Does this
get us there? Can you imagine sort of
Israel actually changing their policy
regarding settlements because it's
harder to export goods to the UK and a
few other European countries?
>> There is nothing on its own alone that
can get us there. This is a long march.
It's painful. It's been long and
draining, traumatizing to us, to me
personally, to you and to the rest of
the world. Particularly watching
genocide in real time, watching 20,000
children being slain. Of course, it's
hard and and long. But look at South
Africa and compare. South Africa is a
very relevant example. Apartheid regime
in South Africa. Was there that
apartheid regime? Was it gone from being
normalized in the west and international
community throughout the you know 40s
50s to being ostracized in one go? No.
It took years Michael years and it was
gradual incremental. And guess what? The
anti-aparttheide movement emanated from
London from here from this city. This
was the hub of the anti-aparttheide
movement. And it took time for the
tacher government and the Reagan
administration. So we cannot be just
maximalist.
You see, we have to be principled, make
sure that everything is done equally and
comprehensively, but we need to build on
things. So, yes, I see yesterday not an
end. And I've been saying this since
yesterday. This is a beginning, but it's
a powerful beginning. When you have a
government that is not doing this
because they had to, but they are doing
this because they want to. When you have
a foreign secretary who's saying this is
his moral compass, he believes in this.
He really believe that the Palestinian
people have suffered enough and it is
upon him and his responsibility and the
responsibility of Britain and the
international community to help assist
show solidarity with our people. I have
to commend this and I must work with
that. And of course you've seen Prime
Minister Bernie, I'm sorry, Andy Bernham
yesterday and his statement clearcut.
We have been waiting. We haven't taken
action enough. Britain has a
responsibility and Britain can and
Britain will. This is leadership, Mike.
This is leadership. And you know what?
It's it shows that they wanted to do it
early on. There are many issues around
us. But to pick this and to show that
Britain can do what it does in Ukraine
for Palestine is a moment when Britain
is saying we are going to finally deal
with international law
equally and comprehensively. So yes,
it's it's it's not the end of the road
but it's a cornerstone.
>> I wonder what you think their the
priorities of the Palestine movement
should be in the coming weeks and
months. Is it to sort of pressure the
government to make sure they sort of
fulfill these commitments that they have
laid out? Is it to say they need to go
further in one specific way or another?
What should the focus be now?
>> Yes, to work with the government and to
work with the parliament and to work
with the representative uh to make sure
that this is implemented in full and
this is built on. Being in the streets
for all these years now, Michael, you
and I and many others have been very
important, significant because it has
shown this has become the longest and
the largest solidarity movement in the
history of this country for for for
solidarity with Palestine. And you
cannot imagine what does that how I feel
about it. And this is the the the reason
this is the cause of all that you're
seeing. Without the British people,
without the public, without the
pressure, you wouldn't have seen
yesterday and you wouldn't have seen the
the the Kistama government recognizing
the state of Palestine. So the public,
the activism, the campaigners is
crucial. The faith leaders, the trade
unions, they are the backbone of all
this. It just rebels up to the
government in the end. But we need to
shift. Our work is not just in the
streets. We are not just activists. We
are also oriented by results. We need to
see results. So, let's talk continue
talking to our MPs, pressuring our MPs.
Let's continue making sure that we
translate this public support into
currency, political currency. Otherwise,
we just enjoy being activists. No, I I
know that you don't. I don't. What we
did for all these years and will
continue to do is that to have activism
as a way of change, not just as an end
in itself. We're not active activists
for the sake of being activist. We are
activists for the sake of inflicting
change. And I believe change has begun.
It just begun because of you and because
of the movement. Nothing nothing is
credited more than two things. It is the
Palestinian people 100 years of
steadfastness, of heroism, of struggle,
of beauty. And you've seen and the world
was not only sad because of what they
have seen in Palestine and in Gaza. But
it was inspired to see the Palestinian
teachers, the Palestinian mothers to see
how this society came together under
genocide during genocide. That's the
first reason. The Palestinian people
have inspired the world. But the second
reason is the movement. So the the
biggest muscle we have is the movement.
But the movement now need to move with
us to make sure that we achieve the end
of occupation, not just protest it. We
need practical practical steps to
achieve this. and and read my lips. This
situation will not end internally via
another round of negotiations between
between the sword and the neck. Remember
that famous saying, between the occupied
and the occupier, the colonized and the
colonizer, the besieged and the
besieure, the genocide and the
genocided. It doesn't happen this way.
This asymmetry does not produce outcome.
What produces outcome is international
pressure. And look at South Africa
again. Look at Northern Ireland. Look at
everywhere the Balkans. Without
international enforcement of a just
peace, it doesn't happen. So it's big
yesterday. We need to enforce peace, but
we need to enforce peace based on
justice and based on the goodwill of
this movement. And that can only happen
through cutting oxygen off this illegal
occupation.
>> Hassam Zamla, I know you have a very
busy schedule today. Thank you so much
for finding the time to to speak to us
at Navar Media.
>> You're most welcome.