On the Record with Nat Winthrop

Good afternoon and welcome. I'm here with Nat Winthre who has just written a new book on the record, Vermont journalist Nat Winthre. And this is a compilation of articles he's written in the past and then revisiting them. They're all so interesting and we're going to get right to it. Nat, thanks for coming today. >> Thank you. Good to see you. >> Good to see you. So, we've known each other a long time and way back to the Vanguard days, but your history really predates the Vanguard. And I was really interested to hear um about your time at Goddard because Goddard um Alternative Media Center has a big role to play in the history of community media and the work that we do here. So, I was curious what you found when you went to Goddard in the 70s and why you went there. Uh um I went there uh for an independent study master's program that I called uh educational media or something like that. Um, and what it was was uh essentially film making 101. Um, and again it was independent, so I was hardly on campus at all. Uh, I had a couple mentors including Robin Lloyd and Dorian Craft who were making films back in the mid70s uh mid to late 70s. And uh at the time I thought I wanted to be a high school social studies teacher. So, uh, I did a teachers internship as part of that program and got certified as a secondary school teacher, but in the uh [clears throat] internship, I decided that I really wasn't cut out to be a high school teacher. And then I had an epiphany uh later driving up from visiting a high school friend in New York City where I'm originally from uh thinking that my American studies degree from Harvard uh prepared me pretty well for journalism. So this friend and I and my wife, my pregnant wife and uh uh very young son went down to uh Biz and Guatemala, partly for a vacation and partly to uh try to get some articles published by uh my photographer friend and myself, which make a long story short, we did we were successful and got three articles published in national uh outlets. >> And what was happening there that you were covering? >> We were covering the 1978 uh presidential elections in Guatemala. We also did a couple of articles about biz, which at the time Guatemala claimed as part of Guatemala. Mhm. [gasps] >> It was uh previously known as British Honduras and was a a protectorate of uh England. >> And why were you drawn to that story? um just because uh I was always interested in following uh US foreign policy and uh misuse of uh governmental power overseas starting with Vietnam. Uh >> well maybe starting way before then >> anyway. Well, I mean I what's interesting about that and that you chose that story and it that aligns I think with your book is that you cover a lot of big themes in the culture in the past 50 years whether it's healthc care or economics or the law or progressive activists you have there's a kind of themes and um I wonder what's your observation I mean my my general set of questions has to do with you know what has changed and what stayed the same And so, you know, in reference to the work you did in Guatemala, what kind of echoes do you hear today from the work that you did there then in the 70s? [sighs and gasps] >> Well, under the current administration, uh, where do I start, you know, uh, obviously Iran, uh, I I don't know. That's an awfully broad question. Uh I'm afraid I'm at a loss for how it relates to today. >> Well, let's take something smaller. So, one of the pieces that you wrote about in here that you reported on and then commented on had to do with following the congressional delegation in Washington. >> Yeah. >> So, you went down and you >> followed Ley and Jeffs and Sanders around. We did that too. It was so interesting. But >> um tell us a little bit about that experience and and how that's changed. I mean how you imagine that access for a reporter would be different or the way they do business down there is different or the camaraderie. >> Oh yeah, very very different. Um Jeffs uh was um representative in the US House back then, a Republican. We were the only state that had uh No, he was a >> He's a Republican at the time, right? >> Yeah. But he was a senator, wasn't he? >> He was a senator. Bernie was a rep. >> Bernie was the rep. Right. So, we were the only state who had a Democrat, a Republican, and an independent representing us in Washington. And uh >> I should say he was still a Republican at that time. Jeffs. Yeah. >> Yes. and Jeffs. In my postcript to that piece, I point out that uh Jeffs and Lehey worked very closely together and Jeffs claimed to be President Clinton's favorite Republican in the Senate at the time. So, he was a moderate to liberal Republican. Um, and uh, when I was there, I got to be in the same room with a lot of uh, both when I was covering Jeffs and Ley. Uh, they were conferring all the time with uh, uh, their colleagues across the aisle. Mhm. >> So obviously that has changed uh very dramatically and yes to have a uh reporter from a a small weekly paper in Vermont. uh I didn't have to show any credentials when I went into the capital or the committee rooms or wherever I was tailing them to. Um >> I mean we had to get credentials to to be able to be a member of the press. I remember we had to bring our Vermont credentials and get congressional credentials, but to move around you had pretty much carlage >> within the the building and there weren't metal detectors and >> exactly >> that kind of thing. So that has obviously changed dramatically as well. And uh I was grateful to the three people in the delegation for allowing me such full access less so with Bernie uh than with the two senators. Um >> yeah, you mentioned you felt you were a little bit of a nuisance. Yeah. But you know, he was like that. He's never really been warm and fuzzy and >> no, >> he hasn't had a really deep love for the Vermont press, which I wonder why that is. >> Yeah, I can't [snorts] answer that question. We were the only uh news media, maybe besides you. I You probably don't do endorsements, election endorsements. >> No, we didn't. But I have to say, we did stay at Bernie's apartment when we went. >> Oh, >> Nat and I went down. We went down twice. the first time he had just gotten there and it was a little bit it was it was a little like a frat house but we did stay there. [laughter] >> So you did mention that you know Jeff's invited you to his home and he was incredibly hospitable and Bernie didn't invite you to his and so much because he didn't really do the dishes. That might have been why. >> So let's move on to healthcare. >> Okay. Um you talk about the um the health care system and Howard Dean's efforts to create a singlepayer system. So tell us a little bit about what was happening in healthcare at the time that you wrote and then your perspective on what's happening now, how it's changed and stayed the same. That article I think was well first there was sort of a prologue which was excerpts from a interview we did with Governor Dean a year earlier. I think that was 93. And then my main article which focused on the merger of uh Fanny Allen and I I forget what they were called back then >> medical center >> um in Burlington uh to form by far the biggest uh healthc care facility institution in the state. they were already big of course. Um so uh Howard Dean um being the only physician governor in the country at the time the early 90s um got together with Ralph Wright who was the speaker of the house as you know uh and um they actually passed a uh singlepayer bill. Uh I think it was in 93 but thereabouts. Uh however, it did not pass the Senate. Uh the there were opponents in the Senate u on both deans left and right. Um and there was uh intense lobbying uh against singlepayer which uh would have involved a significant payroll tax. So uh businesses uh tended to oppose it back then. Um but then the merger of the two Chitten County hospitals basically uh derailed any at least for Dean decided that uh he decided that uh he would not be successful in trying to revive it and that a lot of what he was trying to accomp accomplish was uh at least in Chittening County and environs sort of uh accomplished by this merger. >> How so? >> Well, >> I mean what what he thought what did he think versus what actually happened? >> Yeah. Um, since that was 30 years ago, I don't uh recollect uh exactly what Governor Dean was thinking. Uh, the the main article did not focus on Dean. It focused more on the merger. Um, >> do you think that the merger accomplished containing health care costs? Was that with the idea that he had? >> That was certainly part of his idea. Yes. Um, >> and do you think it has >> clearly? No. Uh, which is which I cover I try to cover in the postcript. um where in the past I don't know several years, five years in particular, um things have spiraled uh out of control in terms of health care and especially hospital uh affordability. Um, as you well know, uh, it's focused largely on the UVM Medical Center, uh, but also, uh, there seven days just did an article about, uh, last week about, um, birthing centers uh, closing. >> Yeah. >> All around the state, three or four of them. and in small hospitals have been uh on thin ice in terms of surviv survivability at all >> for so many reasons. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Um so uh >> it's really interesting the this this is a history book in a lot of ways, don't you think? >> Right. Yes. Because when you read about it, for example, you read about the Supreme Court or you read about Jeff Amtoy or you read about social service, human services policy related to young offenders. You know, this is background that is the foundation of so many of the policies and discussions that we take for granted today, >> right? And I was interested in, you know, in one of them where you cover young pedophiles who are called sexual offenders. Now, one of the big points that you make, which I think at that time was a very big point, is that young sexual offenders typically have been abused themselves. And I was that kind of a new idea at the time when you talked about it? >> Yes, I would say so. Um before 1980 this this piece appeared in 86 uh before 1980 uh I don't believe the Oxford dictionary had the word pedophile and uh the number of prosecutions for child sexual abuse in Vermont was like 10 or 12 or something in that ballpark. a year. Uh but then I think it was in 83 [snorts] the uh department of it was SRS, do you remember what that stands for? >> Social rehabilitation services, >> right? Um >> rehabilitative services. The legislature passed uh a bill making it mandatory for anybody with SRS or uh school officials or nurses or whomever. uh it was mandatory if they came across any instances that they suspected involved child sexual abuse, they had to report it to authorities. And that precipitated a >> exponential rise in prosecutions for that crime. >> And uh it wasn't focused primarily on young offenders. It was a spectrum of uh offenders who >> victimized children. >> Victimized children. And often it was children that they uh they knew um >> through professional contact or you know such as being a teacher or a boy scout uh leader. There were an awful lot of boy victims as well as girl victims. Um, and I focused on Rutland where uh there were the most prosecutions in the years leading up to the article from like 83 to 86. Uh there were a lot that were prosecuted by the state police as well and police agencies around the state, but uh and uh states attorneys around the state. >> Was that an example of Vermont being in the vanguard in terms of how it was handling those cases or not? >> I'm afraid I don't know. I didn't I wasn't aware of what was going on outside of Vermont >> because it's interesting that um some of the stories that you cover show how Vermont was um unique in the way it handled even how the Supreme Court worked or Jeff Amtoy's efforts or you know that we kind of that play a vanguard role given the size of our state and our ability to experiment and our ability to adjust where we're going at different times. So that's pretty interesting. >> Yeah. In the Supreme Court story, which was separate from the Jeff Amostoy story, Jeff was attorney general and then he became he was appointed by um Governor Dean, I believe, or was it Cunan to uh the chief justice position at the Supreme Court. But the Supreme Court story, I made an effort to compare contrast uh what was then an allmale, all uh older male uh you know, people who were born, justices that were born during or before World War II. Uh and they were all Republicans. >> Vermont Republicans. Vermont Republicans. Thanks for the clarification. >> Yes. Which meant that two or three of them were moderate to liberal Republicans in the Aken uh tradition. Um I'm blanking on his name, but oh Gibson was the other one. Uh Justice Ernest Gibson, who I got to know a bit. uh his father and grandfather were either governors or or senators. Um >> well, what was so interesting about that story is how their decisions were based in the Vermont Constitution. >> Exactly. >> Which trumps the federal constitution as a vanguard constitution. Right. because it was written before the federal constitution and that must still have legs in the state in terms of judicial >> um opinions and their impact. Yes. >> Right. >> Yes. And later, which I profiled uh in the article about Jeff Amostoy, um that led to uh a couple groundbreaking decisions, including the one that immediately was linked to the legislature. Uh I think it was the no Baker or was that the educational decision? Anyway, there were major decisions that were based on the Vermont Constitution that were really uh that that generated national headlines >> and turned into legislation which be then became again a vanguard for national legislation. Right. >> Absolutely. Yes. And there's so many people in our state that are so interesting in this way. And you have a obviously being um an alternative progressive left-leaning person, a soft spot for the good troublemakers. So you have stories about Dave Dinger and >> the bread and puppet founders and of course Ben and Jerry's and tell me and then even sort of the whole group of them. Tell tell us what you've what your experience with these people, what they've taught you, and what kind of legacy you think they leave for the state. >> Oh boy, that's a big topic. Um I I was uh by the way, I've I've never lived in Chitten County, just so your viewers know. >> Well, you know what they say about Chitten County. >> It's so close to Vermont. >> Yes. Uh I've lived in Montpielar since 1981 and I lived in Vermont before that. Um anyway uh I was publisher of the Vanguard as you mentioned and then Vermont Times where some of these articles appeared and I uh basically retired from uh being a newspaper publisher in 1995. And the articles you just cited uh were with the exception of Ben & Jerry's who maybe you did not mention that was at Vermont Times but the articles on Dave Dinger and his wife and uh Bread and Puppet and these other uh senior activists who met in the 60s in Greenwich Village and then all gradually uh immigr migrated to Vermont uh separately. Um and that has something to do with Goddard as well. But uh anyway um >> it was a hotbed. It was a magnet for progressive people at that time. Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. Which is why I started there because I was sort of interested in that environment. But you're talking, you're bringing it in now. And they came to Vermont drawn by the magnetic force of our state. >> I became a filmmaker uh shortly early in this millennium in the as um and >> finally after studying at Goddard in the 70s. Right. >> Exactly. >> Right. with the Freedom and Unity Project. Is that >> Well, a little before that. Uh but yes, that led to the six-part uh collaborative film spearheaded by Norah Jacobson. Uh that that consumed about six years of my life. I was executive producer of that series of films about Vermont history. Anyway, before that, I had been a sort of foot soldier in the uh anti-Vietnam protest movement back in the late 60s and early 70s and uh I was exposed to Dave Dinger specifically back then. Um, and then I got to know him as uh through Toward Freedom, Robin Lloyd's uh human rights, international human rights uh publication. Uh both of us served on the board together and uh so did uh Dinger's wife Elizabeth Peterson um who I also got to know and Jay Craraven who wrote the preface for the book uh helped recruit Dave and Elizabeth to come to Vermont. >> Oh that's interesting. What stands out for you with Dave Dinger? I mean he's one of this group of activists. What? Why was he important to you as a friend and as a beacon? >> Um, well, I have somewhat mixed feelings about Dave uh which comes through in uh my postcript to the article that appeared uh I think it was in 2001. At that time, Dave had just been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Um, and speaking of 2001, there was 911 and he sort of went off the uh what's the metaphor? uh the left uh cliff or whatever uh in thinking that the CIA or some entity like that was behind those bombings or 9/11. Um >> but before that >> which I did not uh >> subscribe to before that you know I had read his uh biography which is called from Yale to jail um about how he had been a conscientious objector during World War II and uh taken a lifelong vow of uh poverty. uh and he always believed in making intergenerational connections with younger activists witness the Chicago 7 and the trial that uh he was that made him famous >> and then Weski 44 wasn't he involved with them >> I believe so yes >> yep >> yes >> and so was >> so I followed him from a distance uh as you you know, a subject for uh my journalism. And then uh I got to know him and Elizabeth uh and that led to my doing the feature story uh first for the Vermont Sunday magazine of the times Argus Rutland Herald and then uh the one that you cited that's followed that couple along with Grace Paley and her husband and um Peter and Ela Schuman uh for seven days. >> So these people are very much part of the fabric of our political consciousness in Vermont and you're very much part of it because you have been, you know, we might call um, you know, a weaver of these stories in the role you've played in supporting the alternative press. So you're, you know, you too are an icon in this work and we would not have, you know, we, we had the Vanguard that survived for as long as it did, large part because of the role that you played. We have Vermont Times, the predecessor to Seven Days. We have Seven Days, which is >> the successor to Seven Days. >> The successor to Seven Day. Well, Seven Days is >> I mean successor to the Yeah. Vanguard. Yeah. I'm sorry. you know, while you can't take credit for seven days, you lay the foundation Yeah. >> for, you know, a a continued um infrastructure that we enjoy in this state. So, in closing, how would you characterize the health of the Vermont in media environment today and what what do you hope for? Well, uh I am astounded by uh the success of Seven Days. I take my hats off to Paula Routley and Pamela Pollston and and now the other publishers and editors there. uh and uh it's one of the most successful not just alternative weeklys but weekly papers in the whole country which I'm somewhat familiar with because I was involved in something called the uh institute for alternative journalism uh which launched uh alternative news service called alternate [gasps] >> in the internet era let's just say it was that was a big breakthrough. Alternate people should know that. But keep going. Sorry. >> Yes. And um Paula continues to going to those national conventions of alternative news weeklys every year and has been cited uh in the form of too many awards to count for the work that they've done. And I'm I'm so impressed that uh rather than take the profits for themselves that uh Paula and her colleagues uh who are who she's gradually handing over ownership of Seven Days to keep plowing those profits into, you know, they started as basically a cultural newspaper and they expanded to be uh a hard news newspaper. As soon as they had the money to do that, they hired those kind of staff people. Um so >> make you hopeful I mean even though they're >> I mean they're facing a lot of financial strain just because of the economy and being a paper. What makes you hopeful about the future when you look not only at 7 days but other entities in the state? >> Yes. Well, of course you're much more familiar with broadcast media, but um in Montpielaria where I live, uh we have uh a daily newspaper, the Barry Mielar Times Argus. We have uh a small town community newspaper, the Montpielaria Bridge, and we have a shopper, the Washington World, >> and you have a community media center. >> Yes. >> Yes. I mean, so alto together does that give you >> it's vibrant uh and it's the exception to the rule nationally. I mean, the Burlington Free Press is a shadow of its former self and the the other dailies in the state are sort of hanging on by a thread or threads. Um but still compared to the rest of the country uh we have a very vibrant print media landscape you know daily papers uh in other parts of the state as well including uh Bennington and Bradboro. So >> so what are you hoping with this book? >> So you what are you hoping with this book? Is this your time capsule into the future? What were your thinking when you when you did it as we conclude? >> Well, it started off as a legacy project for family and friends mostly out of state >> who aren't have never been really much familiar with my work >> and I sent them all copies of the book as soon as I got them. Um, but it's luckily uh the Vermont interest in the book has uh exceeded my expectations. You know, I've had podcasts with uh David Goodman and Mark Johnson and I'm going to be on Vermont Edition with Michaela Lfrack in a couple weeks and you're interested. >> Yeah. VPR, Digger, uh, and so forth. Paula Rowley is gonna be talking about it in her publishers column next week. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so, >> so beyond the immediate, just thinking ahead, thinking in a very non-conrete way, what's your hope for this book >> and your own legacy? Well, uh, Paula gives me credit for, uh, helping lay the foundation for seven days. I I hope Seven Days, uh, continues. And after I'm gone, uh, I would love to be remembered as, uh, as as you gave me credit for, sort of a a pioneer of alternative press in Vermont >> and nationally >> and to a lesser extent, >> I get to say that part. >> Thank [laughter] you. Thank you. Yeah. with alternate. >> We really appreciate you being here and thank you for all your work laying the foundation for all of us and for being able to document this. It's a great piece of history, a lot of history in here and um it was fun for me to read because I lived through it also. So, I actually remember all these people, but even for people that didn't, it's it's really illuminating to know that we all stand on the shoulders of giants. So, thank you so much, Nat. >> Thank you again. >> Thanks for watching. Stay tuned here at Town Meeting TV.