Old Chinese 8: Chinese Historical Phonology | Guillaume Jacques & Nathan Hill | Leiden 2026

Okay, so this is just to review what we did last time. Uh, so the tu becomes cha in type B syllables. The dra becomes duh. Uh, in general, the duh becomes duh. And then laterals, LA becomes duh in type A syllables and L becomes Y in type B syllables. And then I will actually tell you uh that in the bongo which is a text I know well uh the the you can tell that the uh in type uh B syllables the LA had already become Yah but in type A syllables the L had not yet become duh. >> Yeah. So uh so you could so I don't know >> that's cool right? Yeah. in in by >> in in the well no in Chinese >> but >> but but because of their transcription >> because they're transcribing a language that we are not completely in the dark about uh we can use it to tell like do they use it you know so so in particular they use uh like they use uh I think the word tasty what's the word tasty is is >> it's something like >> it's lum in old Chinese I don't know what it is in ina >> I think it's Maybe h uh like uh uh yeah >> sweet or something. Anyhow, >> they use that to write the word house in bang with >> Oh, this Oh, yeah. That's what you mean. >> And and the word house in bang is yim definitely, right? >> So then we know the l had changed to a ya. Yeah, >> sure. >> Um okay. Anyhow, uh and then here are the voiceless resonance. You remember this, right? It's exactly the same slide as from last time. Hey, can we uh I don't know. >> Make it bigger. >> Yeah. Or no. Yeah. Like get rid of the side on the bar. >> But he doesn't have his glasses. >> So I I I see even worse than you now. >> Yeah. [laughter] Okay. Yeah. >> Well, but you still match. Okay. Uh Okay. And then here is the uvers. You know, I'm just reviewing the simplex initials because we need to have the we need to have a handle on the simplex initials before we go on to the complex initials. Right? So, these are the the the type A uvular. Here are the type B uvulars. Right? Okay. So, now I just want to in a kind of exogetical way like sort of just uh not empirically motivated just sort of teaching you the Baxter cigar school. uh they reconstruct these so-called pre-initials. Okay. Now, I have to admit that personally I hate the word pre-initial because initial means at the start. So, [laughter] so if there's a pre-initial, the initial isn't the initial, right? Yeah. So, if we ask like what's the initial of the English word spring, people would say it's an S. They wouldn't say it's a P, right? Um but uh I uh decided look like basically I tried for a few years to um to care about this and then I got too tired. Yeah. So now I have given up and I use these terms like everyone else. Uh and actually the the the the thing I tried to do maybe this is why I got so tired is use the Tibetan terms because the Tibetan tradition has very clear terminology for these syllable positions. Yeah. Um but uh anyhow so so if you feel uncomfortable with the the oxymoronic quality of the term pre-initial you have my full sympathy but you know what to do. Anyhow uh so they think there are pktm a under specified so it's not like you see capital n you might think it's an ugular n. No, it's it's a it's a homoorganic initial uh that's underspecified with respect to place of articulation, right? And uh s okay. And then they also say that each pre-initial appears as a tight which we write with a period >> and a loose which we write with a schwah. And actually now I suddenly feel vindicated because like K. Glosstop means there's no uh schwah in there. Right. Anyhow, >> smallerwallerwah. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh, and this has some, let's say, uncomfortable like like or one thing that's important to me is to show you the worst things about the Baxter cigar system. So that you know, if for instance, you go back to China, you can say, "What did Nathan uh, you know, if your teacher says, "What did Nathan teach you in lighting?" He he criticized the Backaxster cigar system. Yeah. Uh, and then he goes, "Ah, I'm very happy to hear that." Yeah. >> Okay. So uh so with R then we have three options T tr and t uh schwah r and they actually do use this whole machinery and I feel very uncomfortable with especially the difference between the first two like do we really have three different ways of saying ch in in old Chinese >> anyhow um and they don't say anything about the distinction between tr and t dot r yeah so shame on them Yeah. Uh there was another criticism I want to make. Oh yeah, maybe I'll get to it. Just let me take a Don't look. Don't look. Don't look. Uh no. Okay then. Uh then I will uh say it here. Uh cigar. I don't think Baxter himself has commented on this or back cigar really but they think that let's say cigar has said that he thinks each morphe in in old Chinese had like two forms the loose form and the tight form >> and I think that is is just an outright violation of neoarian principles. Yeah. You you can't just say like well every morphim had two kinds and sometimes they use this kind and sometimes use the other kind. Right. It's totally not against the rules. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, maybe there's a way to clean it up, but uh that cleaning up needs to be done. Yeah. So one way of of looking at it is saying like for instance from y point of view we could say well if you had a verb and it has some prefixes that we can't see because they have disappeared like a second person prefix for instance uh and when there was a one of these prefixes was in the very beginning of the word they had one form but when there was a prefix just before it then it had the other form. >> Yeah that would work that would work fine. Yeah, that would >> but the problem with this idea obviously is if is that we don't have evidence for it but yeah but you can have this argument without violating the new principle I think >> yeah I mean this is quite similar to what we were saying yesterday uh when we were just sort of chatting about grammatically conditioned sound changes it's totally fine to produce like to propose a grammatically conditioned sound change as long as you come covered in ash you know like like as long as you say as long as you say I know I have done badly. I will do better next time. Yeah. Okay. Then it's fine, right? So, Cigar does not cover himself in ash when he when he makes this proposal and and I think this is >> uh to be regretted. Yeah. Okay. >> And then I don't know does >> you you you cover yourself in ash when you're a penitence, right? Like that's okay. you. I just want to make sure the non-native speakers know what I'm talking about. Um, okay. So, another thing just kind of continuing to criticize back cigar. So, cigar um reconstructed in 1999 he reconstructed armpit is kalak. Yeah. And I thought, oh, that's a great reconstruction. Yeah. And partly he because he looks at Cantonese which has something like I'm not very good at reading IPA. Yeah. >> Yeah. Do we have any are there any Cantonese speakers in the house? >> Hello. Yes. >> How do you say armpits? >> Oh, beautiful. Okay. Now, do we have any Fujo speakers in the house? No. Okay. Uh I'll now I just as a as a proud uh servant of Trinity College Dublin I have to say we used to have a campus in Fujo and it and then it was closed in 1949 because of something called communism. Yeah. [laughter] >> But uh you know and but but we've had the good taste unlike uh I don't know Namingham or UCD to not try to restart some colonial project in China. No, we've said look, we stay in Dublin now, you know. Anyhow, Fujo, they also have a prefix. So, so his reconstruction can account for these these prefixes in colloquial readings. Yeah. Uh, but now they reconstruct it totally differently with uh an unknown prefix and then duck. >> Yeah. >> Probably look. Well, no, don't don't start trying to fix things before we've acknowledged how broken they are. [laughter] >> So, so I mean they must have good reason for it and we can look in their 2014 books, but suddenly these these these colloquial forms look really bad, right? Yes. Like >> so, >> you know, but like I said, they never look back. So they never tell you like, well, yeah, you know, we did do this, but now we think this and this evidence. No, it's just like here's the here's the new version. Like every year you get a new iPhone, you get a new >> I may they they write it with these um brackets, but in the system means we not too sure about that. So >> well, could could it be KL still? >> No, it could be KL still in this. >> But then why do they put a Q there? Like I >> the word for ampit which is yeah in middle Chinese. So it has a it has a use initial >> that would be in the view. >> Yeah. Stop stuff stop. The point is they you they take let's say two steps forward and one step backward and that's fine. That's how science works. But again you should cover yourself in ash when you do this. Right. Yeah. And they don't do that. Okay. And uh oh yeah, this is this is the part that I this is a slide that I should have had when I said the thing about neo grammar. So back to so cigar says that as working as assumption is that they have um they have that each morphim has a has an unprefixed a tightly prefixed and a loosely prefixed and that the three types uh of forms existed side by side in in old Chinese perhaps as stylistic or social variance. This is pure mats, right? This is like uh it's not how we should do. >> Please don't say that in front of >> Laur. Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. [laughter] So, um, so we can try to fix it like like you know by like anyhow it's worth I think just encouraging you to think about how you fix it because I because my own I don't know my own instinct maybe it's just because I love their system because I've learned it so well but is is uh probably this there is something real going on with these loose and and tight pre-initials but we have to come up with a a a orthodox I would say explanation. Yeah. Uh okay. Yeah. And then I will also say that uh well I'll just read it. See what I'd say. Yeah. Okay. So the primmaacia evidence of old Chinese pre pre-initials is weak. Uh but the theory embraces a wider variety of sources of evidence than other reconstructions of old Chinese and affords a notation system that allows a systematic exploration of the evidence. Yeah. So, so the nice thing I would say the nicest thing about their reconstruction which is what should be the the lowest uh hurdle to clear for any reconstruction system is it does predict the data it's supposed to predict right which Mata's reconstruction prisons don't. Yeah. >> And it's very unclear to me for instance whether Bob blusts do for Astronesian. Yeah. Um but uh yeah so anyhow you you can and I have done it you can change their reconstructions into middle Chinese in a totally mechanical way right so that's good it it it predicts the data and it predicts more data than um >> just middle >> than just middle Chinese yeah and this I would say is kind of let's say another point of difference between let's say the the Beijing school also we used to we used to be able to to say the Beijing school and the Taipei school. Yeah. But now there's nobody who follows the Taipei school >> is my impression. Yeah. So um >> um but uh yeah, which is that you know uh I think that in other traditions people say look I'm just not interested in uh loan words into mongen or Buddhist transcriptions or whatever sinoetan comparisons and in fact methodologically it's bad. You should you Chinese should be reconstructed with Chinese evidence only. Yeah, that's fine. But I think of it as extremely let's say as an outsider because I do think of myself, you know, I'm a typologist, right? It's extremely nice to have reconstructions that predict more information. That means they're just they're they'reformationally rich. Yeah. If you don't like some of that information, you can ignore it. But if you do like some of that information, then you can not ignore it. whereas other reconstruction systems just have less predictive power. Now that's not a that's not for me at least it's not a claim about realism you know >> maybe their reconstructions are all crazy yeah but they are predictive of the actual data and that is very important right >> what can I just add something more about the loose versus non- loose prefixes so in particular because this is something we saw just before in the Jbook class so the causitive prefix in Jbook has a lot of alomos so you have an element of Z just one consonant that occurs when you have a dyelic uh word whose first syllable is a uh starts with a sarant. So for instance for we saw this morning to go yeah with a replicate form of look is close to look close to God. Yeah. But if you have a monosabic form like put then you have s. So this z versus morphologicalation yes productive and regular might be an example of the kind of loose versus tight prefixes in the system. That would be one type of um um phonology conditions allorphy that could lead to the kind of phenomena that are mentioned by me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I mean we should we should have a discussion about this in the field >> and we haven't yet very much. Yeah. Um so anyhow so I'm a partisan of Baxter cigars theory system let's say simply for this reason like which is say I can turn back cigars reconstruction into reconstructions >> not the other way around >> but not the other way around. Yeah I could turn them into Carl's reconstructions but not the other way around. Uh I personally couldn't do that. I don't know Carl's reconstructions well enough. >> Uh and the same thing with Wong Lee but uh uh but any case >> you can write a transducers. Yeah, you you you could write a a program that changes one to the other, but you can't write the program the other way because then you would have to ask a question like what is it in min? Yeah. So, um I don't know this is a kind of information theoretic point, but like their reconstructions have more information in them. So I think for comparative linguistics that's extremely important because maybe the thing I'm looking at in Tibetan corresponds to a thing in their reconstruction system that just isn't there in anyone else's. Yeah. So um so I think for comparative research uh their reconstruction is uh is the best one to choose. Yeah. Okay. So now uh here is just kind of some anecdotal evidence that will make you believe that uh there were clusters in old Chinese. So first we look at uh this m prefix. Yeah. So we have this uh uh ode O 235.5. The five the.5 means stands of five. Yeah. Uh so uh I can almost uh read it. Woo n something. Uh uh anyhow you can read it. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. So it looks like it means do not remember your ancestors. Okay. And if there's if you know anything about Chinese culture, how likely do you think it means do not remember your ancestors? Yeah. So, [laughter] so I don't know may I mean this these come down to actually you know profound philosophy of science things like maybe I should say I you know look if the evidence says it don't do not remember your ancestors I should trust the evidence rather than letting my my assumptions about my prejudice against you know I was going to say against Chinese civilization >> about Chinese civilization uh dictate you know this. But anyways, see what you think. >> Yeah. So, the Mao commentary says uh when it says do not remember, it means remember [laughter] [laughter] uh so so back cigar interpret the m as a loose prefix. Uh that Oh, you wanted some morphology. So, I am here's some morphology. Yeah. >> Uh so it's a loose prefix that makes remember into a valitional verb, right? Because the the trouble is and this is true of most Asian languages actually. I would say uh non-valitional verbs like remember, love, you can't you can't turn into the imperative. This is like this definitely true uh in Tibetan uh is like I can't say love chocolate. It's just un-grammatical. Yeah. Because it's like either you love it or you don't love it, right? There's nothing you can do to to follow the order to love uh chocolate. Yeah. And actually, one thing that that one of the ways I amuse myself in life is is noticing advertisements in English that have imperatives of non-volutional verbs. Yeah. >> Um so [clears throat] I don't know. I commend you to this hobby. If if if you find yourself bored looking at an advertisement, you can think about this. Yeah. Anyhow, so maybe this was true of Chinese too. Remember is not a in general not a voluitional verb. Yeah. Uh you just remember like oh I just remembered that I left the iron on. Yeah. Um so uh if you want to make it into a voluitional verb, you have to put this valitional prefix. And there you go. Now we've explained that uh ma. Okay. Um here's another one. Uh, okay. It seems to say, "Not strong is the man. The four realms comply with him." Well, why are the four realms complying with the man if he's not strong? Yeah. Okay. The M commentary says not strong. I mean, strong. Yeah. Okay. I [laughter] like that. Charlie finds the the Mau commentary amusing. Okay. And then and then here Baxter and Cigar say uh that maybe this MA is spelling out the M prefix that they already proposed for this word uh to strive to compete. Yeah. Mrons. Yeah. So uh you know I don't know that's some primmaacia evidence. Now let's look at some evidence. So here we have um uh these Joe are greatly illustrious God appointed them and this Buddha is just totally unintelligible, right? Like it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. >> So the moral commentary says uh you know not duh means duh. Okay. And then you're like well what does duh mean? And then it says duh means de. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Okay. So it means this. So it's just saying that was somehow an alternate form of de. I don't have an answer for this one. Like like I I don't know maybe de was always de. Yeah. And they only write it out here or something. But anyhow, it's it's evidence like, you know, I'm kind of softening softening you up to the idea that it's uh that old Chinese had uh pre-initials. So, how about this one? Uh this one says uh I didn't give the translation. Actually, I didn't give the translation. Oh, well this says something like um not attentive not attentive are the horsemen or something not full are the kitchens. Yeah. >> And uh if you read the whole poem this is in I I go through all these examples in my 2019 book. Uh it's it comes at the end of this very long poem which which is like it's it's it's somehow some some some military expedition like returning home and they're like yeah we had fun out doing our military thing and then everything's great at the end. Yeah. And then you say the watchmen are so inattentive and the kitchens are empty. Right. It doesn't make any sense. So um so the Mau uh commentary says not attentive is attentive and not failed is failed. Yeah. So there you go. But um and this one is uh I don't I didn't find it. I'm sure I didn't find it but it's not in uh it's not one of the cases that back cigar uh discuss. Yeah. >> So [clears throat] and then I think this is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. So old Burmese has this word. Yeah. which according to normal Burmese historical phenology goes back to pling uh and this uh and people already thought this this yang which is ling in old Chinese >> was cognate with that. Yeah. But I think no one had pointed out that actually here you have it with the P. Yeah. >> So I think we can we have an exact match between old Burmese and old Chinese with the word for Phil playing. Yeah. And actually uh there's a guy uh what's his name? His name is this there's this Italian guy who did his PhD at Shaman University who lives in Japan. >> Oh yes. Uh Gio >> Gio >> something. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Well he got me a lot further. Okay. Uh he's very nice and very learned. He writes extremely turgid uh flowery English which is something that >> I I want to do but don't allow myself. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. [laughter] Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, really? Yeah. Anyhow, he he uh so I don't make the comparison to the Burmese in my uh 2019 book and I don't really remember why it's because it's not directly relevant. It's like the point is that the Mao commentary itself gives the evidence, right? >> Um uh but anyhow uh he he wrote a review of my book that was very positive actually. It's it's which made me happy. And but then he sort of says like I don't know about this uh prefix in old Chinese this plang example and I don't know where I was going this but I talked to him about and to me this like this Burmese cognate really like >> you know it's a slam dunk. Okay now you say this one is from Baxter cigar. You say look all your examples come from the shing and I want to return to that in a moment. Why are all these examples from the shing? But here's one from the show. Yeah. Uh and then I will just point out that showed means uh like declare the simplex characters and analyze the complex characters. >> Yeah. Okay. So this is the word brush. Uh and then it just is saying how it's pronounced in different dialects. Right. So that with which one writes in chu it is called mut in Wu it is called in yan it is called put in chin it is called put okay and actually this would be another great thing if you want to tell us how does the Beijing school analyze I know how they analyze this stuff in the treing yeah uh but how do they analyze this because this is really quite strong evidence of uh constant clusters Right. Um, yeah. So, I mean, now this raises many questions like why why is it different in the different dialects? What how did those different dialects treat clusters in general, right? But that's we're not going to be able to get there. But any case, we can see that we have we have it it's it's as if the Shushan wanted to say Baxter was sorry, Cigar was totally right. Yeah. because he gives us the the form with no you know the put form the put form and the form. Yeah. Uh although actually it's a little bit the the put form is a little bit weird because Yeah. Anyhow, so this has our tight and loose uh uh prefixes. And then uh here is from the comment in the Yanja Hun. Okay. I don't know about this text. Uh it's from back cigar. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a question? Yeah. >> Question just um why does the dialectal variation imply that there had to be a distinction between tight and loose? It could just be that you just had one type of cluster that became these people. >> Oh no, you're totally right. Yeah, but let's say in Shushan's time there were dialects with loose pre-initials. >> There were pre-initials. >> There were pre-initials and some of them were loose. >> In his time in some dial, >> not in the same language, >> not in the same language. Yeah. >> Yeah. No, you're totally right. Um, which is to say if you're if you're happy to have constant clusters but you don't like the pre and loose thing, you can just say some dialects loosened all their pre-initials. Yeah, >> that would be totally fine. >> It looks like a princess or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or I mean, but then you have the loose ones but not the tight one. Yes. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Which is say, okay, fair enough. The evidence from the choza proves there are pre-initials. It doesn't prove that there were loose and tight pre-initials uh in old Chinese. Okay. So, here's this example that I'm not going to go through entirely, but uh uh let's just read it. Okay. I have exhaustively visited the Shu region and they pronounce uh lip as pick but at the time they had no way to explain it. I said in the sun and the shenaned uh this word is written as uh by above B. So there I give you the character and it is glossed in both cases as uh lip. Yeah. And then they were all very happy. Yeah. I wouldn't I would say go home jackass. Yeah. But uh uh anyhow so here you see a kind of I don't know what to call it a synchronic alternation between it's I mean synchronic in a very broad sense. Yeah. uh between uh pick and uh >> lip >> lip. Yeah. So, actually there's there's a lot going on there, but uh you know, anyhow, maybe it involved a a P uh pre-initial. Okay. Uh yeah. And then uh here's their their back to scar's uh explanation which is that uh we have a pra initial and uh this is confirmed by protomin in their system. Although I think actually uh one of the areas where their system has gotten weaker since 2014 is in their use of min although I don't like like basically min reconstruction has >> has improved >> has improved and it doesn't seem to confirm their ideas. Uh but I don't know very much about that. Okay. So now before I move on to the shishing series which is what I wanted to do uh today uh I will explain why we think the churching is the only text that uh preserves this kind of phenomenon. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So when we talk about the and so is it also here in for example >> no you don't it's not like every negation marker gets to be a pre-initial. >> Yes. >> It's just that if you wanted to say um I'm just looking for a handkerchief. There we go. Have a run your nose. Yes. Um uh yeah it the thing is you know P and and M are like you like if you want to write them in Chinese you have to write them with a character. >> Yeah. So you write P with bu and you write uh m with moo. But uh this is you know our perspective is that they aren't negation. Now what you >> in this context >> in this context yeah of course they are negation usually. Yeah. Now what you could say is why don't you have examples of uh T and K prefixes in the shing. I think that is a good question. Yeah >> that's a good question. And I think our only answer could be well you know they didn't write enough poems. Yeah. Um so so that's a bad answer. Yeah. But I still think that the question needs to be answered. And I will give you I don't know what people think in in Beijing, but I'll give you Carl Grant's answer is he thought this was like um kind of uh rhetorically pleonastic negation along the the the side the along the example of uh let's say I'm a netizen in in China and then I interact with the great scholar Shang Bolin. Yeah. H then I assume because of his wisdom and uh well suggestity what not he must be Chinese. Yeah. And then someone tells me he's French. Then I might say uh he's he's not French. Where I where I'm not actually claiming that he's not French. I'm just saying it's surprising that he's French. Yeah. So that's kind of cognance like like like he he's saying like the kitchen is so full that I'm saying the kitchen's not full. Okay. >> Uh I I don't find this uh Yeah. >> particularly convincing. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh okay. Oh yeah. So yeah, I was going to say so why the shing? Well, uh the shing is extremely unique kind of socio linguistically whereas much of it in any case is uh not high poetry, right? It's like it's like uh folk poetry. >> Well, it looks like folk. >> It looks like folk, >> but it's supposed to be metaphorically referring to >> Yeah. We don't don't >> It's folk poetry. It's folk poetry that has been canonized in this very high style. >> I mean the part awful. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Now you can talk about where these examples come from. I haven't done that. >> Yeah. So the the examples you find here are from the many and andya parts and they are older sections of the of the and these are significantly older than the rest of the corpus in all Chinese in fact. Yeah much older than the or the or whatever. So the fact that they preserved in the script things that don't appear later is not surprising. Uh and also they have a fixed meter. >> See that that's important. Yeah. Cuz the question is why look okay so I I let's just try to do this very systematically. So the first question is >> well no the only question is why does this only happen in the churching? And then GM's first answer is because the parts of the shing that it happens in are extremely old. >> Yeah. >> And that doesn't explain why it happens in the shing. That explains why it doesn't happen in the or the lunu or whatever. >> Mao's little red book. Yeah. >> Now the question is, okay, but we have bronze inscriptions from the Joe. We have oracle bone inscriptions from the sh. Why don't they have this phenomena? Okay. Now you explain that. Yeah. >> Well, so yeah, you have a meter, you have a number of fixed fixed number of syllables and you need to fit in uh the these syllables and so I I think that even in this corpus these not all pre prescyllables were written. Yeah. But you could uh well one way of fixing the meter when you make your poetry is precisely to use a um uh a prefix and and as a full syllable. Um, so if I may, so once I uh was um at campfire with a speaker of Rwan and we he sung uh so we were singing on the guitar songs uh from France and and and he he was singing in Ron and I was uh surprised to to see the sesable so the the precables with a schla in how they were treated when you see and Actually most of the cases where this you have a I don't know the I don't remember exactly the words but let's say if it's like in JO the word for in JO for instance the word for star is shagan this would count as one syllable in a meter. Yeah. So you would have first you have two syllables counting as one. But you could imagine in a in a in a language of this type that sometimes when you want to write your poetry, you have the choice between putting the two syllables as one word or as two words. And you have it think like that in English, right? Like over as or yeah or you have >> I I was thinking of it. Yeah. I was thinking of in like in William Bird often times you get uh salvation as salvat salv like I can't even say the vowels right salvion. Yeahvation uh and and probably actually in William Bird this is my impression probably in William Bird it has to be that way. Yeah, >> but uh I I I knew a guy actually who was writing church music in like 2018 or something and he would put in uh salvation scanned as three syllables and I said like uh-uh right >> yeah and then and then he said well William Bird does it so [laughter] >> it's also reminiscent of of French sing >> ah that's I was just going to say that >> that's there there's lots of schw ones that are definitely not there. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yes. Yes. >> But I think in I think you have to do them when you sing in French. I don't know. >> It depend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, you do. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like you say uh like I was on an airplane once and there was this uh song sal is it or ah I don't remember salotance. Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's the always the example that comes out to me is you say in in clo France but in when you sing you say France. >> Yes. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> You have a I I I have a question. So so so so if you have a choice whether you want to um pronounce the um the um the first syllable as as a separate character just so you can occupy like a certain part of the meter. Then doesn't that logically mean that at that same time the character that comes after could also be independently pronounced without the pre- syllable? >> No. Why would it mean that? >> Because be because because like um uh say the like something like that, right? Like like if you can sing out single out the P and write it write it out as a separate character than the second syllable T, then that probably means it's already an independent character. >> No, no. You characters you shouldn't think of as an onlogical category, right? Characters are just a the question is what can you do when you're singing? Yeah. And what we're saying is suppose you have a word like >> like so the new word. Uh, no. I don't want to do the m I want to do the this one. >> Mr. Okay. >> So, there's uh there's a there's a a a verb in old Chinese which is pronounced uh I want to do it without the mang. Yeah. Okay. If I'm just talking, you know, I'll usually, let's say it it's not relevant, right? But usually I will not have the schwah there. Right. And if I'm singing, usually I won't have thewah there. But if I've painted myself into a corner in the metrics, then I can say mrs. >> Oh, I see. So it's pronounced actually twice in the reconstruction. >> Well, I think you could write it differently in the reconstruction actually. So because the fact that you have a G >> uh >> is already in the view indicative of the presence of an M. So >> yeah, I wrote it twice in the reconstruction because I was just mechanically looking up the reconstruction. We don't think it was pronounced twice. >> To be more specific, so this what Nathan wrote is a mechanic reconstruction of as if each character was separate, but in fact what you might have had is mank. >> Yeah. So this would give uh gang uh as the reading in middle Chinese. This the m would drop and you would end up with with in middle Chinese. Yeah. So but this is the the the the vu here represents this syllable when it's not read as clung to the verb. >> Yeah. >> Well, and I would actually just say I don't think I think it must have been with awah and not with an a. Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And that's also true. So it's like in French you can say put >> like small. Yeah. >> Yeah. Completely free variation. >> And that's sounds weird. I think >> no. If you tell a story, >> yeah, you don't say if you want to speak like a name in French. cigars. [laughter] Yeah. But but no really really the so from a French perspective having both [snorts] and cr fairly uh normal normal. Yeah. >> Well, it's just sort of probably you just have an initial cluster under language and you can just insert a squad as >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but the the the the issue is uh you know if you ask yourself what kind of uh like you wouldn't do this in a in a you know you in a in a formal bronze inscription >> that had no fixed meter or that you know or or like there there's an interaction of like the the social linguistics the timing And and and it all points to you would only expect this in the shing, right? Only the shing is old enough and has the right kind of poetry. >> Yeah. Where it needs to have a fixed meter, needs to rhyme, and it needs to be not super formal, >> I think. Yeah. >> Um and I'm going to just credit this is uh this explanation came to me from Shinkong. Yeah. Like >> Okay. >> Yeah. I I sort of said like why is it only in the he said I agree with him. Yeah. >> Um, okay. So, now finally, uh, on to the the, uh, shang evidence. Okay. And now, I don't know, uh, this will be, you know, like when you want me to stop, you just say like, no, stop. Okay, then that's fine. Yeah. >> Actually, this will, >> you will go talk about morphology here. uh implicitly. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um so uh I'm going to look at shong evidence for clusters. Uh and I will look at S initial clusters, P initial clusters, K initial clusters, T initial clusters. Uh and then stops and resonance which kind of you know have to be treated separately. Yeah. Uh and uh M andN before u end resonance they otherwise disappear. Yeah. because they become uh voiced. Yeah. So you can't you can't tell apart in a shank series if something's just a B originally or if it's an MP originally. Yeah. So we don't expect that. So uh this is the biggest case. Yeah. So tight pre-initial S as an origin of middle Chinese S. Yeah. So uh so here is uh Shaun series and then you you'll you'll I put pre-chin forms uh not because I'm making any kind of paleographical uh claim. I'm not a paleographer. It's just to make the shang relationship look more obvious to you. Yeah. So um so here we have uh a series. Yeah. So, mang mang and these ones you know how to reconstruct already, right? So, we have m, we have mr and we have uh you know Yeah. Okay. And then we have this word s with the same phonetic. So, somehow the ancients they wanted to write song with a m phonetic. >> So, probably it was. Yeah, that's the idea. Is any Is everyone happy with that? >> Yeah. Good. >> This is from Leon. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leang. Yeah. Uh but I I think it's this example already that that um uh Baxter and Cigar have a big fight with Yes. >> uh our man. What's uh Msulin? Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, the apparently there's so I can't don't really follow the pographic evidence, but there's pographic evidence that could suggest that this the oldest way of writing uh s would not have this m element. >> Well, I mean that's I don't care. It got there some at some point. Yeah, [laughter] >> they the the opponent would say that it's a it's a semantic here because of the warmth meaning also. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. >> Because some means the morning or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. More like actually we have a nice word for it in English. Obiquiz is >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. French word. is morning rituals. Yeah. Like not rituals you do in the morning. >> Rituals you do when someone [clears throat] you know has died. Morning rituals. Yeah. >> Okay. Uh so uh here uh you know another case. So we have uh goes back to and goes back to ma. Okay. And then maybe goes back to okay. Ah, here's a lovely one. Yeah. So, uh this is uh I think Lauron has written wrote about this a long time ago. >> Yeah. Uh so, uh the west uh so you have nay goes to n and nay goes to n. Fine. And then say maybe it comes from sn yeah. And I would uh again be very interested how the long school go back to this one. >> This one. Yeah. >> So here the idea is that found the s that you have here is a is a prefix that would be a cognate to the um oblique nominalization that you have in in Yeah. And it mean a place of rest basically. >> Yeah. That's Yeah. Yeah. I was >> because they there was this belief in of ancient China that the sun were like birds that flew in the sky. Yeah. And this the also the archer hoard and and so uh they would rest in the west and flow uh fly up in the east. Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's would account for thisology. >> Okay. Okay. And then uh I think there's there's been a literature actually there's a literature basically about each of these. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um uh I don't remember this one but uh there you go. So you have nyang goes back to n in the three cases. Uh oh and then I'll just tell you u I'm giving these numbers from shler. Yeah. So if you just want to look at the Shaun series, you can find them in Schustler because back haven't published an analysis of the Shang series. So the most uh I don't know upto-date easy to use uh list of Shang series is from. Uh okay. So uh yeah. So this here's a so maybe it goes back to Yeah. Uh okay. And then uh uh and this one's a nice nesting one actually. Okay. Yeah. So, uh yeah, this is a nice one. Uh because you see we have the word uh fish uh which in Burmese is so in old Chinese it's also yeah uh in type B syllable. Uh and then uh we have these other words that are similar would have been basically and then we have this sue which was presumably originally. Yeah. And then you notice that the last character is built from the second to last character. So that like subseries is all with initial S. >> Yeah. So this is where you know it's like the Shang series don't just keep track of the type A type B distinction. They sometimes also keep track of things like do you have a an S uh prefix. And then I'll also just make a kind of slight methodological point which is if that last character is late maybe it wasn't ever maybe it was just s >> uh because it was built you know because the because the relationship of like who's my fanatic is always proximate yeah I can't you can't jump over to the you know >> anyhow >> however if I may so so I want to comment on this last character. So we sing the S. Yeah. So to uh be aroused or something to be Yeah. >> So you you see here in first of all the vowel is the one we expect we we had already this um this uh u vowel. Yeah. Now in so so this s would be from s and eventually from sna. Yeah. Okay. And uh it just happens that in Japan which means to uh wake up. >> That's probably the cognate and that's supposedly single cluster in this world. >> Yeah. >> Lovely. >> Yeah. Actually, here's a if you're uh if you're taking both the class and this class, >> maybe you can look for Japo cognates for old Chinese words. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jacques, Jung, and and Lie have already done that. >> Uh yes. Uh you mean in the in the thing that was published in Russia? Uh the Yeah. But this is so old. >> Yeah. >> There are many new cognates that have been found in the meantime, right? Not so many but but I mean you can see it to at least to um >> to to to yeah to see how whether or not the data confirm or inform what's been proposed for Chinese. Yeah. >> But I mean I do have the impression that Yulfan has found >> maybe a few more >> a few more since then. And then also my PhD student Jinxi she finds cognates every time she looks at anything. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So >> yeah. >> Um Okay. And now uh and then I am doing you if you just look at the the the titles you know. So this is S goes to M in type A syllables and S goes to SM goes to S in type B syllables and then SN goes to S in type A syllables and SN goes to S in type B syllables. I'm trying to be very systematic, right? Because we found that the AB distinction matters most of the time. So far it hasn't mattered for S prefixes. Yeah. >> Uh okay. So we did that one. Okay. So how about this one? This is goes to S in type B syllables. So we have this and this net and then we have this. Yeah. So there you go. >> And now how about uh with L? So uh I should edit these more carefully so I don't have theialization. Sorry about that. >> Uh so uh yeah. So we have this or let's just look at the first three characters and we have yak uh heek and and day probably originally dex right you know from tonogenesis uh so it's a a classic lateral series we have d alternating with y so it's a lateral series and then you have this se and this presumably sex yeah >> uh so they're probably uh actually originally slacks and slack. Yeah. >> Okay. And now, how about with uvulars? Okay. Well, here's a uvular series. How do we know it's a uva series? Because we have basically because we have the the the the the va fricatives like we we motivated the uvular because of the glto stop, but then we found that that's the only way we have to deal with var fricatives. So, here's a ver fricative one. Uh so it's uh uvular series. It's actually it's uvular labio uvular because of the because it's it's hook basically. >> Um and then you see we have this uh swan example. So maybe it's a s before a labou right um uh okay and then here's in type b syllables also a s before a labouvular. Okay. And then it's not clear to me how Baxter and cigar decide between uh S QW and SQHW. Yeah. Because they both end up as S. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh and they don't comment on it anywhere. Presumably it has to do with etmological speculations. Yeah. >> Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. It's ambiguous. >> Yeah. So in fact according to their own writing they they should probably put the brackets the square brackets around because there are several possibilities. >> Yeah. >> But I mean I'm not giving their reconstruction here. I'm just giving the initials anyhow. >> Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. >> Uh okay. And there's no type B syllables that Baxter cigar reconstruct with an S prefix to u but without labelization. And this is where >> like it's just a gap. I noticed right so uh >> so it bothers me and now some gaps are accidental but I think it's always worth noticing gaps >> because uh >> yeah and that raises a question so you see the more complex you create you make your reconstruction the more gaps the more real gaps you occur >> and the more question it raised so by complexifying reconstruction actually you also create problems And if the more complex the reconstruction because the the number of problem increases then probably you're not on the right track. Yeah. >> Whereas as if the more complex you make it it solves the it makes a you know you're on the right track when there's a snowball effect. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you add something but then it solves more problem than it creates. Yeah. >> Yeah. And indeed I mean one way you can tell the story of Chinese historical phology is you know Carl Gren came up with a crazy reconstruction that had way too many uh distinctions in it and then uh let's credit it was several people actually but let's credit Lee Funquay in particular for just cleaning up Carl's system. Yeah. >> So now I think it's fair to say back cigar system is too complicated. Yeah. So we need someone to come and clean it up by noticing oh there's this gap and there's this gap and we can get rid of this distinction you know so you know I don't know that's something you can do for your final assignment if you want >> although it'll take you a decade yeah [clears throat] >> okay uh and then uh >> this one actually we mentioned in a class >> oh yeah >> because this is another example of s uh instrumental. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I will say I don't like this. I mean I don't know it's here. I really am giving their reconstructions and I don't like that they do one as u and one as verer. Yeah. That's not veryant. >> Yeah. >> Uh so you know but I also think it doesn't matter right like you could do the you could you could do them both as u and you could do them both as verer. And in fact, the fact that they put their kh in brackets means that they would be okay with you changing it to a newer. I think >> would be >> Oh, you're right. So that has to be a verer. >> Yeah. >> But then we >> or maybe they thought it would be with a prefix. They have this idea which I don't find particularly compelling that clusters with should give which I don't think it doesn't work like that. Well, but you have to like how do how do but you do you have an explanation for why vers intrude and u >> that's something that needs to be explained but just from what I've observed when you have a cluster u it doesn't turn into a v in any language I know >> but u do change to v sometimes >> yeah but when they do only when they're cluster yeah frequently you can just have it's not that weird >> yeah is very >> yeah the becomes or whereas has uh remains >> something like this going on in European actually which is >> okay >> I mean this is very long ago so I'm trying to remember this is there a thing that that the distinction between what we call the palers and feelers gets neutralized after s >> oh yeah >> towards you side of course >> yeah maybe yeah >> it doesn't it doesn't >> okay never mind this is this is old all old memories for me. >> Okay. Well, I mean maybe the in the in the Jacques Hill reconstruction, we can say there are wheelers that come from uers, but the explanation for them is not clusters. It's it's some magical thing that >> Yeah. It's some feature >> feature. Yeah. Yeah. That we need >> Yeah. that we need to >> to to figure out >> to figure out. Yeah. And use for some other purpose. Yeah. >> Uh okay. Yeah. Oh, I just said that. Yeah. Yeah. >> Exasperation. >> That's right. Yeah. Maybe maybe that was whereby >> Okay. And then here's a nice one, I think. >> So, we have a word for cat. Is it cattle or what's what's the middle one? >> No. Well, it's it's one of the tendant. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's actually one of the characters that launched a uh was uh under attack from several people in and people from picking school. >> Oh, this v character. Yeah. >> Because uh you have two homopones, right? You have this character and a word for five. >> Yeah. That has a no initial. Yeah. So, >> these two are not homophobic. So these two phonetic elements this and this uh five they come from different origins and uh so one of the arguments as we've said previously is that you don't have according to Bakar and Seagar characters that can be used with either of these as phonetic. >> Yeah. And so the two were separate at least in the early stages of the Chinese script maybe later confused only after the cluster was simplified to >> yeah so well that's an ongoing debate. >> Yeah. Although I let's say okay so I I think you may have missed that but uh >> but the the let's just take a slight digression. Yeah. >> So Baxter and so so there's a thing called Yeah. which is basically spelling variation is the way I think about it. So this is actually something I talk about in my inaugural lecture if anyone wants to you know uh see me lecture about it >> uh I give you the short version. Yeah. So in English we have uh night and we have night. Okay. at the point that uh uh well actually in this case it's very con convenient because um uh because um because uh old English poetry and let's say archaic style middle English poetry has uh alliteration. So in uh the let's say early 14th no yeah I think it's early 14th century uh knight alliterates with king. So then we know the K is still there, right? It alliterates with king. But then in uh some letters from Cambridge about a 100 years later called the stoner letters, you get uh you get spelled no. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that means that like and I'm oversimplifying because actually this happened in different parts of English at different times over a very long period. uh but uh basically we know the K was still there when this poem was written and the K was definitely gone uh when this uh letter was written. So we can try to use um spelling variation uh in middle Chinese sorry in Chinese in the same way right where if two things are kept separate then they were pronounced different and if they're not kept separate then they are pronounced the same. Yeah. So the example that I talk about in my lecture is these two characters. Yeah. So these are both in middle Chinese. >> Yeah. Or I should write it in my system. Um >> it is a K. >> Oh. >> Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Uh so uh so everyone agrees absolutely everyone uh that uh these two never gets confused and it's not even just these two characters no characters from the Shashan series built on these two characters get confused until the Han dynasty. So Baxter and Cigar think they must have been pronounced differently in order for them not to get confused for a thousand years. Yeah. Uh and then in Piking they say no basically they make a philosophical point. You can't use negative evidence in science. >> So the fact that they're not confused doesn't count for anything. >> The fact that there are that they are confused can be used to argue that they're the same. Yeah. So that's a philosophical difference and that's what my lecture was about. My inaugural lecture was about the philosophy of science implied in the bachelor cigar school versus the picking school. But uh anyhow uh so now help me out which one's u one. I think this one's >> this one is the first one is u >> because it has in it series some characters that have like for instance. >> Yeah. Yeah, there's also some some that have like some like with a that have a yeah different. >> Now I think there is something very nice about this which and I forget which actually can you write the character that that has the move? >> Yeah. It's the >> several I got right at more. >> Yeah. Yeah. There are several of them. Yeah. prettily. This is the wing on. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Maybe it's not more prettier. >> Yeah. >> It's bigger at least. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. And then this is I think it's uh >> right. >> Uh yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So this one has to go back to >> according to back. So what's nice about uh I would say just you know I don't know in very abstract terms what's nice about their reconstruction is we notice that this series has contact between veers and gadles and this series is pure ver yeah >> and in a sense that reconstruction of kong versus kong predicts that they would not be confused in uh in philology and in fact they're not. Yeah. So in this case in a very non-poparian way we make a prediction and then we find that the prediction is confirmed. Yeah. >> Uh so uh the other example that so this also gets talked about a lot in the reviews. Yeah. Axel Shler is very unhappy about it. Uh and then the other one is this one that Guom uh gave and I will have to look at the character to remember it. Yeah. Uh so this so basically the same argument applies mut mutatis mutanis. Yeah. So uh there is no tongja in very late. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um uh and then I will point out again right it's it's very nice where here you have to you know this uh this one uh this this character the the this one uh it has an h initial and there's no way to get so this is Nathan's age so it's x for y uh there's no way to get that back to aer Mhm. >> Yeah. So, um >> well, the only way would be a aspirated maybe. >> Oh, that's true. That's true. That >> it would be a bit more comp Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. You could do it. >> Um >> Yeah. Because it's a because it's a because it's a a ver nasal series, you do have two ways to get it. >> Yeah. You could have the first you could say it's a sn it would also work. >> Yeah, that's true. It's not completely impossible. >> Yeah. >> Uh okay. >> There's a question in the chat. >> Okay. What's the question in the chat? >> No, it was just somebody saying uh somebody said change shift to respond to something very >> Oh, okay. >> So, let's see what I say here. It's not clear to me. Oh, yeah. This is exactly what you were just saying. >> [laughter] >> It is not clear to me how Baxter Cigar choose SCA uh rather than SCA. You know, this is uh this is the point of again, I don't see how they can decide whether something's aspirated when it's covered up with an >> AS uh and uh and I don't see why they don't reconstruct this one with with a ver nasal. >> Yeah, it's also possible to do with a possible. >> Yeah. So maybe the reason they don't uh reconstruct with the veno is because there's no tonga between these two series. Yeah. >> Yeah. And also because you have Okay. So I think one of the evidence they take is this word is used as phonetic is the true. So uh and it would be more difficult with unknown. So the word for uh what do you say in English the uh when the >> no that's used to >> ple uh >> and what is it in middle pennies? >> It's true. Yeah, it's a it's a pron initial. >> It has a TSR and H. >> Well, but how how do how do they reconstructed then? Cuz you it still be hard to get it from a dealer. >> TQ >> TQ. Okay. Something. Yeah. >> Fine. Fine. Maybe we'll run into it again. [clears throat] >> It's not the most elegant u uh Yeah. thing you could imagine. Yeah. So, um yeah. Oh, no. No. I I I was wrong. It's au So it's a ch So no I was wrong. >> So it's in middle Chinese not >> okay but it's still >> it's it's still aspirated. So it would be >> in middle Chinese according to them. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So just I just write it for make sure that everybody follows. So, middle Chinese in my system. Uh, in system it would be something like >> that's a C, right? >> Oh, C. Yeah. C H I O. Yeah. And uh Yeah. And that comes from accordically come from H. Yeah. If you don't do anything, but they would reconstruct it as something like that. I guess. >> Yeah, this that's exactly >> Yeah, but actually >> Okay. Okay. >> This actually has to be a >> Okay. Sure. Sorry. [laughter] >> Okay. Uh Okay. And then my last comment is back cigar also proposed that s qh in type a syllables in a different dialect can become so. And now now I will really say this is where it's like you know they're doing the best they can but they allow themselves many tools to throw back into old Chinese and then they allow themselves dialect mixture as a explanation quite promiscuously I would say uh and that's you know that may be the truth is the thing right dialect variation does happen but it's not very satisfying okay how about uh s before How much time do we have left? >> Uh, we have 10 minutes. >> 10 minutes. Okay, then we can maybe we can get through S. >> Okay. How about S before T? Well, here's uh a Shang series. That should make you want to reconstruct an S before T. Yeah. >> Same clone change happened from old Tibet. That's >> Yeah, it did. Yeah, it did. Yeah. [laughter] >> Uh, yeah. And and maybe for that reason I find this series of proposals very credible. >> Okay. And then here it is in type B syllables. So we have this sit and we have this uh Yeah. Okay. So all of those were uh S pre-initial as an origin of middle Chinese S. And now is S pre-initial as an origin of middle Chinese SH. Yeah. Well, you won't be surprised that these are cases that involve a medial R, right? So, we have this uh Leo which comes from R. We have this Lu that comes from R. We have this Q rather that comes from and this that comes from S. Yes. out with just also defined. So >> yeah, it would be the same. >> It would be exactly the same. >> Okay. So the only reason >> so so maybe the period there is only giving morphological information. Yeah. Um, and I say they appear not to reconstruct any words with uh type ASR, although they do reconstruct type A S. >> Yeah. [laughter] And and th this I think is a place where maybe we can simplify it and just say that like after S the voicing wasn't distinguished, >> you know. I don't know. Uh but it's another gap I noticed where where I think maybe some cleaning up can be warranted. Okay. How about uh this one is a So we have this so it goes back to N. And then we have this uh which goes back to and then we have this goes back to Yeah. Okay. and they appear not to reconstruct any words with type a. Okay. So here is uh next is this sha. Yeah. >> So here I just uh give the overview. So uh st k skh they all go to sha. So just here um in relation with the previous uh lecture notice that this initial has several origins one of them being the and in the type. Yeah. And this is another origin in clusters and this is you found a different is mean basically. Yeah. So that's not made up. Here is one of the examples where you can actually something that has merged in middle Chinese can be disambiguated not just by phonetic series but also by comparative evidence. >> Yeah. Actually, I'll also mention it. Uh Julian and I are in the middle of uh writing a a proposal. >> Mhm. >> And our proposal is to look in particular about >> Tongja >> uh and to compare the EV the Tongja evidence for the different origins of >> Shu >> and the uvular hypothesis because this hypothesis let's say at least outside of China is not at all controversial. >> Right. Yeah. >> Whereas the uvular hypothesis is very controversial. So I think it would be very interesting methodologically to look at what is the tongja evidence for keeping you know sk and whatnot all separate >> versus the uvulars. So then you have some control on how unreasonable is the uvular. >> Yeah. So that's we are developing a proposal for such a project. Yeah. >> Uh okay. Uh and then uh yeah that this this is actually no surprise the sk origins of shu only happen before front vows >> because also actually I mean I I don't know how to state state it but the the the normal K also is weird before uh front vowels it it palizes very early this is the kind of there's sort of two waves of palization in in old Chinese. This is the early palization. So, so like ki uh let me just write it here like um I'll do it up here. So e and t merge. Yeah. >> So that's because t becomes I don't know chi and then later he becomes ch. Yeah. Mhm. >> Um yeah and the the precise conditioning environment is quite tricky and actually actual shrimper has written a very nice article about this problem from a while ago. Uh okay yeah and I just write that the restriction is a result of the first palization of old Chinese whereby veers become uh paliz before frontal. So it's a it's a corary. >> Yeah. >> Of the previous becoming becoming >> exactly. So actually so this is also something interesting in terms of relative chronology which is we know at the time uh that we know that the first paralization actually precede the loss of clusters. >> Right. Yeah. Uh and for a little while we must have kept >> uh we must have kept uh you know >> uh as Yeah. as a complex class. >> Yeah. >> So and and yeah >> yeah and that I just point this out here right yeah >> and yeah so so Josiah mentioned in Tibetan and in as we saw this morning we don't have exactly the same but you don't like cluster like that. So in it's the S that changes in but so so Tibetan languages don't like clusters or >> yeah I will point out so in Tibetan I'll just give an example uh so uh so the word etc which is sock in uh in uh in uh classical Tibetan is >> in old Tibetan. Uh and now the change uh this this change of cha is more uncommon but we do have the word uh tamch. >> Yeah. >> Which in old Tibetan can be written >> to >> Yeah. So that's also becomes show >> and >> Oh yeah. Yeah. That's an even better example. >> That's an even better example. Uh we have uh nishu is how you say 20 and uh it's kind of what you expect is buu. Yeah. Okay. So so if I can just allow myself a trick here. First you delete the prefixes and then you end up with nu and then becomes sh. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh I don't know that's doesn't have anything to do with Chinese, but is a similar sound change. >> Um okay. >> So, let's see. >> Is this Yeah, we can't we can't uh uh we can use min to distinguish the aspiration at least in some cases. Yeah. Okay. So, let's just do this one. So, uh this is a t. Yeah. So, st becomes sh in type b syllables with this example of uh this last character. Yeah. >> Uh and let's do this one too. Yeah. So, here uh we have c and sk, right? >> You get the idea. >> Yeah. And then I just mentioned that they do have this in type A syllables but not from patient series evidence. U >> yeah a lot of the examples they propose are based on word family. >> So words that are written with a different phonetic element but um >> yeah and then here's >> to be related. >> Here's another one. Yeah. This is this is skh uh and and here they're relying on Mandarin and Guangjo which is Yeah. which for the aspiration. >> Uh and let's stop there because now we're switching to S as a source of Z. >> Yeah. So, so far we've gotten S clusters to give us S, sh, and show. Yeah.