Old Chinese 7: Chinese Historical Phonology | Guillaume Jacques & Nathan Hill | Leiden 2026

So we're trying to figure out what pronunciation is implied by the script itself, which means by the fact that a character has a certain other character as its phonetic. Yeah. So then we looked at this series and we said, well, maybe it means same initial, same rhyme. Yeah. Then we found out that that is too strict. It actually it kind of works with with well some series. Yeah. But um uh so we looked at this one and we said well it's homoorganic initials with the same place of articulation. uh and it's uh it's it's pairs of rhymes modulo and equivalence relationship that can be extracted from the shing right where where and this is what I this is where I'm getting my equivalence relationship through rhyming right so each sheshung series has two rhymes one type A one type B where all type B means is has an I in it right and that's the point is you just look at we go back to this series and you say in this series there are two rhymes one type one type A one type B right everyone's on board with that >> yeah and they have homoorganic initials so it's the same place of articulation um does everyone know the word homoorganic >> okay good yeah all right uh and then we saw that the pair of rhymes seemed to be the same rhyme in the triging so Now we have the hypothesis that uh to put it uh you know strictly a single Shang series has readings with homoorganic initials of the same place articulation and a single rhyme that manifests in middle Chinese as two rhymes as conditioned by whatever the type A type B distinction was in old Chinese. Yeah. And I think I think a a lot of people are having trouble with the abstractness of type A, type B talk. Yeah, if you have if that bothers you, just think of type B as having a medial Y. >> We don't think that's what it was, but we did think that for a long time. So, um, actually, I think for >> for longer than any other hypothesis. >> Yeah. Uh, >> if I may just Yeah. to make a a link between what you present here and pre previous week. >> Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So yeah this uh so if we present the the rhymes with the uh grid that I presented last week we had four categories. We had the year with year. Yeah. So this would be type B. We had not no year but is type A. Yeah. So >> and only three and four have A and E. Yeah. So only >> what do you mean only three and four? What are three and four? No, no, no, no, no. Something different. >> It's K. Sorry. >> Okay. Let let me let me fill in this rhyme. This this Yu this is called So this is uh nonrotic. Yeah. And this is with non rotized. And this is rotiz. So rot says as Nathan has explained yesterday you can one way of of writing it is to say that there is an R here. Yeah. So in this rhyme we see R here. Yes. This is in middle Chinese. Yeah. And you see Y which is this. So this is transcribed as I in N. And with the uh BA transcription user J. Yeah. So I I put it like this. >> Um so basically you have y here and here. Yeah. >> And here you will have this one. So this is ma or this is confused with the yu. This is and this is basically you have something like this. Yeah. So here uh whatever in in this rhyme in fact you have this year right this is the the b type because it has a year here you don't have a year so it's for first second and here you have third in both parts yeah and you always have uh division three here >> for this one >> for this uh group >> right yeah I won't go too watch it. But here the division three is neutral. You don't have division for for this one with the rhyme. >> Yeah. Although it exists with uh another rhyme. Uh yeah. And uh yeah. Well, that's two. >> Yeah. Maybe what I should let's say kind of in retrospect if Guom and I had coordinated a little bit more closely what I should have done is is is said uh each Shang series has four rhymes in it. One >> one one you know plus or let's say one minus y and minus rodic >> one plus y and plus rodic one minus y and plus rodic and one plus y and minus rodic >> and sometimes some more rhymes depending on the initial consonant. >> Uh labials and non labels they say it can be as we've shown with the up >> uh yeah but or like ah the >> yeah yeah >> yeah that's maybe why I don't do it that way it's it's I want to I want to start by just saying are like this one yeah this is this is the kind of series that makes us formulate the shank hypothesis >> yeah so this theories >> only the two the so so this this what's represented here is only the two cells above yeah there's no example of the two cell below but that's fine >> yeah so it let's say in fact it's just this series doesn't have that yeah >> uh but let's say in terms of the methodological point like you you find a pattern then you believe in the pattern and you force the pattern on other data yeah that's how I think we make progress in science yeah so the pattern we notice is homoorganic initial with the same place of articulation and that that there's a single rhyme in in the shing that becomes two rhymes according to the AB distinction. Yeah. Okay. Uh and then actually I'll I'll even say like okay like if if there's any risk of you being confused, turn off your ears for just three seconds. Yeah. But um it's actually like nasal initials tend to be uh set off. Yeah. So so something is is either p-p or it's m. >> You don't get very much mixture across nasal non-nasal. Yeah. >> So so maybe me saying homo organic with respect to place for articulation is already a little bit more um expansive than it needs to be. Yeah. >> So in two ways. >> So here here what is meant specifically because pomorgani can be understood in several ways. So we can say pomorganic clusters when you have a cluster all the place. It's not what's meant here. Here what is meant is that all the po they have place of articulation same place. >> Okay. That's simply that. >> Yeah. Yeah. They say have this they have the same homo is the homeo in Greek same and then organic means uh uh origin right. It comes from the root gen which is uh what gives us >> No it's organ. >> Oh organ. Okay. >> Okay. the different >> organ I don't know >> I think it's the tool >> to cool yeah >> yeah same place yeah well here is in terms of the articulator maybe I guess >> no but isn't it like like what's organic food why is it called organic >> I I don't know but I think organ here is the tool you use to make the sound >> oh okay articulator same articulator is the yeah articulator is the tool yeah okay yeah Uh yeah. So it's a so >> uh so then I zoom ahead to where I articulate this this is the uh you know so so now this is our belief it's called the chichang hypothesis. Yes. >> So it is >> meability too. I'm sorry. >> That's my Yeah, >> that's my that's that's my interpretation. >> That's my conceit is what I would say. It's [laughter] I I have studied how Champolon deciphered Egyptian and it worked, right? Yeah. Uh and so uh Chinese like Egyptian is a dead language that nobody knows how it was pronounced. Yeah. So let's try to to study it using the same methodology. Yeah, >> just to stick with the light motif the the and I have a lecture about this uh you know Marx says that the uh correct methodology in science is the ascent from the abstract to the concrete. So you need to have you need to start from the correct abstract concepts and then by the overlaying of different abstract concepts you determine the manifestation of the concrete. Right? So my question is what are the correct abstract concepts to do uh philological interpretation you know of of phenology and and so I said well let's look at Champolon and then abstract from his uh behavior and this this is also I think like how let's say how mathematics works right you you you look at something like the integers and you say what does it mean to be an integer. It means that you're closed under one operation. Uh and you're commutative. Yeah. So then you say those are my abstractions and now I look at everything that behaves that way. Yeah. Anyhow, I feel like I'm getting too far from Chinese so I reign it back in. >> This is the uh this is the hypothesis. So now we are going to see all future data through this lens of the shang hypothesis. Okay. Uh and then and then here is where I just wanted to and this I feel like is really worth emphasizing. It's to say the AB distinction exists in old Chinese. Yeah. It's in it's built into the structure of the characters. Now this isn't a claim that all Shashan series distinguish it. That's far from true. It's also not a claim that all nesting in shang series is explainable by the AB distinction. That's also not true. Yeah. It's just to say we have sufficient evidence from the structure of Shang series nesting to say whatever the AB distinction was and let's say it was palization and IB it was it's old. Yeah. It doesn't come from uh what 1010 when the Yun Jing was written. It comes from the Joe dynasty. That's the point here. Yeah. And and I do feel like from this side of the room when I presented it yesterday, there was a little bit of hesitation here. So is everybody happy? You you you you accept that the AB distinction is real and is old. Let's take a vote. Who says who says AB distinction is real and old? [laughter] >> Okay. >> Okay. No. No, no, I'm not. I I'm not agree with that. It's it's just my personal taste problem. It's not I reasonable and because I I go into that field that the Asian Chinese it shows a character way. So I I'm not from the phenology way. >> No, but I'm going through the character way. >> Yes. Yes. I I know that what they are doing here. But because I do not know the terms that I have to speak in Chinese. >> Yeah. Okay. Go ahead speak. So my question would be like so there was kind of so when the Chinese character develop so there will be some kind of expectation. So me why so >> okay >> yeah because that's why I'm not so like it's not my taste but I agree that there is a kind of phenomena and it's kind of rules. So yeah, so the the the thing is how do we know that these um different characters are not some random changes is because we see the same vowel correspondences not just with this series, >> but you can find other rhyme and have also the same rhymes in that that share the same u phonetic elements with a with a variant that's specific to one um one middle train is right and we say see the same pair of rhymes in several phonetic series with the same pattern. So we know that it's not just a random change of character or let's say taking a character and using it to write a completely unrelated syllog. >> Yeah, this happens. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Especially this is called the sh. So when you have a phonetic element that's um reduced for instance. Yeah. And you can have a phenomena where a phonetic element is used for something already like for example >> yes >> and we know why but I won't go into detail but that's not that >> okay >> the two phonetic elements you have here >> had the same rhyme in all Chinese >> and we know that because if it were just a random alternation this a um correspondence would be only in this series but you have a dozens of other phonetic series where you have exactly the same pattern. Erh so so uh this is a little bit of a side but uh the way we write Sumerian is to actually distinguish in the romanization between the phonetic component and the semantic component >> and I think it would be useful to do this uh when we write Chinese. So uh for instance we know that everything in this series >> use several colors. >> Yeah. Okay. >> This is a red one. if you need. And there's a blue one. Yeah. So, use colors. >> Okay. >> Okay. Then I'll I'll write this uh in red. Uh yeah. So the so well so this is the primitive uh uh element of its series. Yeah. It's the mother of the series, right? So it has no semantic components, right? So I write it just the way it's pronounced. Yeah. And then you you have to just take on faith for the moment. This is how it's pronounced in all Chinese. Yeah. So then this one uh >> maybe write the yang with a different color because >> the young in >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to do that. Yeah. So So this is the word she. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's on sitting on top of it. So what it's telling you is like when uh one of the ancients invented this character, what he was saying is I mean the thing that sounds a bit like nay and that has something to do with a sheep in the pronunciation. Yeah. Sorry. In in the meaning. Yeah. So I write it o for ois which is the Latin word for sheep. And uh like this. Yeah. so that you can read it exactly the way the ancients would have read it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's a kind of psychological uh reproduction of the the phenomen phenomenological experience of reading on the part of the ancients. Yeah. So this is a I don't know this is how I like to write Chinese. >> Sorry I I have to interrupt. Yeah. So so there is a kind of war and the e on the side. So I I can understand that the is the left size center character relationship with it around but when we build up this kind of e so is that the sound of e is related to the y no no >> okay only okay >> because in middle Chinese it's >> okay >> so this y is >> whereas the is >> and a and Y could rhyme together in all Chinese. >> That's the whole point. >> Well, and I just have showed that already, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's useful to repeat this point. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Uh now I will say that uh it's my belief uh which I also think you should try to believe and see how it feels that all Chinese characters have uh are either uh simplex what uh Shushan would call uh when [laughter] >> Yeah. Oh yeah. uh or they're complex. And if they're complex, they have exactly two components. One of which is the semantic and one of which is the phonetic. So you will come along and say, "Oh, this character has two two phonetics." And I say, "I don't believe it." Yeah. >> It what you're doing is confusing the bracketing structure, right? Because now if I come and uh now if I come and make some other character, I'll just uh make it up. I like to make up characters because I don't know very many. Yeah. So what's the the semantic? It's just this and then the phonetic is this. Right. So that's this nesting behavior, right? >> So so the the relationship between a character and its phonetic is always a proximate relationship, right? And that's why Shashim series are nesting. uh and this is as the ancients found that they wanted to make further and further specific uh uh distinctions in terms of pronunciation. Yeah. >> Uh anyhow, but for for now I just want to make the point that uh at least the AV distinction is built into the structure of Chinese characters. Yeah. In in the thing I sent you, it's like 60 pages or something. I actually what I actually do is retranscribe something every time it gets used as a phonetic to further specify the uh the pronunciation. So and then the way I would write that is like I actually write like this something. Yeah. Where the B is saying type B. Yeah. uh and you can just look like if if you want to get a feel for what kind of substructures there are in Shaun series then you can look at this document that I circulated uh before the class and also you can uh you can criticize it because I made it uh with AI so there are there are mistakes in it yeah uh so although actually before you criticize it you should ask for a new version because I think I'm I think I made a new version before after I sent you that one. Anyhow, uh let's move on. The point is we have the AB distinction in the script and we have the Shang hypothesis. Yeah. So then we uh then we have these problems, right? Whoops. Yeah. These problems which are all apparent violations of the Shashan hypothesis. So we have paladalss and dentals occurring in the same series. We have dentals and and ya occurring in the same series. We have h and nasals occurring in the same series. And then we have verers and uh glottles let's call them occurring right occurring in the same series. So now who remembers how we fix each of these problems? Although we haven't done the last one yet. Let's go around in a circle. How do we fix the CT problem? >> This this one actually we saw last week. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. This one. This one. How do we solve it? >> Well, how would you solve it right now? >> How would I solve it right now? Okay, I'm so nervous. >> Well, I mean, look, the easiest thing. So, you have three choices. You can turn turn one of the things into the other one, or you can turn both of them into some third thing. Yeah, those are your options. So, how do you make all of the initials have the same place of articulation? >> I I I I probably would um sorry, I I would propose something that would turn into both of these. >> Okay. Like what? Um, >> what turns into t and cha ta and cha. >> I'm just at the same time that you was thinking. Yeah. I'm just drawing the same thing but with the uh same grade that we studied before. Yeah. So here the ch that would be equal to the ch. Yeah. The would be equal to that. Yeah. And so you would have here cut you here cur. And here you have ch. And here you have to. And here you have a y. You have ro size. Yeah. And non ro size and not. >> Yeah. I'll give you a hint. How do they say subway in England? >> Metro. >> No. >> The tube. >> They say Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. They say the tube. But tube. Okay. The tube. Okay. >> Yeah. So, >> is is that what we're trying to get at? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ch in this example is coming from what? >> Um, >> how do you spell tube? >> Tube. Yes. >> Yeah. You don't spell it c h e wb. >> Yeah. >> Tube. No, [clears throat] >> you you spell it t u. What? He's so we [laughter] so I don't know. So, so, so what's your suggestion if if Chinese worked like British English? >> So, there would probably be a a ch sound that would split into um a a a t sound and a a s sound. >> No, no, no. I or I don't I don't somehow I'm not explaining this well but so tube is how I would is what I would call something like for me actually they're two different words right the tube is what you take underground and a tube is something that you like pump water through right but they have the same spelling yeah [laughter] >> uh so I think maybe the t changed to a ch when it was palized by a medial yah yeah that's what that's what's happening in the word tube right because English people put a y before all oo vowels vowels. That's why they say they how they call someone Stewart >> instead of >> We used to do that too. Stop. >> Well, sure. But we we stopped doing it. Yeah. Um give me other examples. >> Tuesday. >> Tuesday. Yeah. So, so what's happening is you have the t followed by a u and then that becomes tube. So the the palatal uh medial is palatalizing the initial. Yeah. >> So it's a very normal thing to happen around the world. So that's what I think happened here. Yeah. It's also was covered last week. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so yeah. So so how about the retrlex? Let's >> Yeah, that's [laughter] gonna say I was gonna say I'm not sure which English dialect to invoke here, but uh >> but [laughter] okay, but uh but actually we talked a lot about retlexes yesterday, right? Yeah. >> So So where do you think the retroflex initial came from? >> I'll give you a hint. Look at his his his thing here. >> It's in the rodic. Yeah. So it's so it's an R. So it's like tr becomes dot. Yeah. Anyhow, um, so here's what I proposed. Yeah. >> Yeah. I somehow I don't know. I guess I went through this way too fast yesterday cuz I I didn't expect to have to do quite so much review, but uh >> let's How about uh let well just Sorry. So, talk me through uh Whoops. >> Beyond that, >> yeah, >> talk me through Josiah. What's going on here? >> Well, it looks to me like there's uh multiple different kinds of of conditioning environments for a single consonant, I will say. >> Okay. >> And I'm going to say that it's probably L. >> Yeah. So, more detail, please. L becomes blah blah under blah blah. >> L becomes Y. Um, is this is this a type A syllable? Type B syllables. >> How can you tell? >> I don't know. >> Because it has a >> Oh, wait. No, because it has a Yeah. >> It has an I in it. So, so in my beautiful transcription of middle Chinese, all type B syllables have an I in them. >> So, they're dead easy to spot. Whereas in Baxter's it's a J, a Y or >> a >> pal initial. Yeah. >> So then so then the first one is like from or something like that maybe. >> Yeah. Sure. Yeah. >> The second one is from the ra. >> Yeah. >> And the third one is just >> uh the third one is an irregular syllable. >> Uh yeah. Well, you know, um, >> things happen. Now, this is a real problem, an unsolved problem with middle Chinese. Yeah, >> because it has a type three syllable in front of the dental stop. >> And it's the only vowel only syllable in the whole middle Chinese lexical. >> How do you say environment? >> How do you say environment? Like they >> in in the fall. Okay. >> Now, uh, okay. Now, this one is maybe hard to ask you to explain because there's no problem. It already uh works in terms of the uh the the the hypothesis. But can you if you remember like why can't we reconstructed L and and and how should we reconstruct it otherwise? So I give you a hint. What did Josiah just reconstruct? >> L. So can we use L for this one? >> No. So what should we use instead? >> Something that's close to an L, but not quite an L. >> I'll give you a hint. >> What is it that the Japanese confuse with an L? It's a it's an R of some kind. Yeah. And it's a good uh so I'll say to you because you'll understand it's a good uh suggestion because the liu uh is never in uh ardang. Yeah. >> So if two things are in complimentary distribution we can combine them as one thing. So then we say both liu and ardang come from R. >> So it's nice, right? >> That's actually a much that's a that's a positive reason to reconstruct R. >> Yeah. Rather than just L was already taken. Yeah. >> Yeah. And actually this one I don't know does do in picking do they >> do they question >> do they do how do they reconstruct the alignment? Probably just they say lighten. It's always been lighten. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. So how is there any reason that the in peing they think that there's no uh ardong with the lu? >> Yeah but they don't reconstruct the media. >> Yeah. So what is the reason they think the liu is incompatible with the ard? No, actually you can speak in Chinese if you want and GM will sort it out. Okay. Right. Yeah. Now Um, So, so uh we we let's say that's uh enough Chinese for now because other people won't understand. Uh but please this is your homework is to figure out >> how Wong Lei explains the incompatibility of Limu with Ardong. Yeah. Okay. Er okay so uh yeah so there we go okay so now uh how do you account for this series yeah >> u we say it's um d cluster which can be preceded by a thick I think I don't remember it got lost >> well let just state the problem with this series >> well you have something which needs to move both of lateral and Ver. Yeah. And so how did we do that? Um >> well and noticed that uh this is actually relevant. Notice that the first four readings are all division two syllables which means that they're what GM is classing as rodic syllables. >> No no they are even three syllables. >> Yes. Sorry. Yes. Okay. Let me let me show a table like yes last >> close enough. Yeah. Okay. So in last week we saw this table and actually we saw the tangu. Yeah the yangu sorry. So we had yang here. So that's the one that's written as uh this one. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh so this rhyme corresponds to yan that we it's a type rhyme that only occurs before great initials. We saw that. Yeah. And I explained that we had this. So you had this before grave initial before labial and vas. Yeah. And you had this before coronals. Yeah. Here you had an and you had Yeah. Okay. This was what we learned last week. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. >> Yeah. And >> this is what you observe here. Yeah. >> Yeah. I will give you like if if some of you want the uh I I want to make a like in in uh in Buddhism we have this sense of like there's the very very slow path and then the you know somewhat faster path and then the like >> instant path. Yeah. So if you want the instant path, I'll just say that uh and this is something that uh all three of the uh middle Chinese transcription systems that we've been using share in common, which is uh this vowel and this vowel. So we could also write them in proper IPA if you want. Uh they both come from some kind of medial R. Yeah. So like if if you don't want to mess about with with this terminology of Chinese like >> uh is it uh this division or this you know blah blah blah you can just use this as a >> shortcut. Yeah. >> Uh so uh so how do you propose to reconstruct this type of shaman series? Uh we have um >> why fricives? Why? Why a fricative? >> I don't know. Something to see. >> Oh, I see. You're saying like maybe it's a maybe it's a that becomes sometimes uh G and sometimes R. Yeah. Is that what you're proposing? >> Yeah. I'm trying to remember what we said yesterday mostly. [laughter] >> Okay. in a certain point of a resonance or stuff like that and then >> there is >> well well I do it more mechanically right like uh I just told you that these vowels you can get an R you have a measur >> why not just yeah and >> and like or something yeah so we don't need the fricative idea I don't think yeah >> um >> well we could try to >> yeah you could try this could be your homework Yeah. Yeah. >> No, I mean it's very serious. It could be interesting just like with the we had the uh uh leod dental hypothesis for for for for last week and that was very interesting. >> Well and actually the particularly what would be good about like let's say ver fricatives as an answer here is is so let me just move to what what I reconstruct. Whoops. Too fast. uh is as I pointed out yesterday, we've only sort of solved this series. Yeah. Because uh because because it's I don't even know how to to like let's say contact between R and KR is less weird than contact between K and L. Yeah. But it's still not all from the same uh uh point of articulation. Yeah. And actually uh in the past uh Lauron Cagar would uh uh just say more or less mechanically put a verer prefix on the like with a schwah in it so that you would have something like this. Yeah. in order to account for the fact that they decided to put this particular run in a K series. Yeah. >> Uh but this was in like 1999. He really was happy about this idea, >> but uh they don't do it anymore. >> Yeah. >> With lean this one. So you you notice that in Tibetan you have a >> with a Yeah. to to be cold. Yeah. >> To be cold. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so that's you could say you have gr in Tibetan. You have here but you maybe want to put a C because it accounts better for the Tibetan. So >> yeah, maybe maybe a word. Well, so here's what I would say is I actually >> uh like this idea >> from a purely mechanical uh perspective, right? Which is to say like it does solve the hypothesis. And I don't know why cigar backed away from it >> except that I would say that they are trying to be realists in terms of actually reconstructing what they actually think things are pronounced. And I don't like that at all. I'm kind of let's say >> at this moment I'm more of a nomalist, you know, like just let's let's do whatever we have to to fix the shang series and then see what other sources of evidence give us. Yeah. >> Uh so I quite like that idea. >> Yeah, actually it's a smart idea. The the thing so if >> well I think it's it's worth spending a few minutes on this idea. Yeah. So the only problem if you have this idea is why does the gamma changes to c sometimes to go sometimes and to zero sometimes. No no but it's you should try to make it work and see how far you can go. >> But even I mean if it's a place where articulation could be the same. >> Yeah. >> Only the place where articulation needs to be the same. It could just be the fricative in in the bottom >> you could you could imagine. So, so with these rhymes, let's say this is zero, this is our medial, this is zero, this is medial. Yeah. So, when you have basically you have two medial or and vow is so if you have >> in middle Chinese then mechanically we expect something like that. Yeah. Okay. Now, if you want to say that instead we have a fricative maybe we could say that. Yeah. would change to uh to G. We have that would change to right and I don't know her change to zero. >> Well, I mean what what what Ryan was saying was was extremely simple. Yeah. >> We just have goes to C. >> Yeah. >> And G goes to G. >> Yeah. And >> and >> goes to just R. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I see the idea. Extremely elegant answer. >> Uh and and I would actually personally I would rather reconstruct something to index the fact that this is a live move from a verer series. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and I would say mechan like let's say like methodologically speaking I think the the mechanical choice that I would favor would be like a like a capital K or something to say I don't know what the hell it was but >> it's a conditioning factor for the fact that this line is from a ver city >> right and and and so and so if I correctly so for the uh works a the bottom one. Um, uh, it is actually borrowed into into Tibetan. >> No, it's not. No, no, we think it's cognate. We think it's cognate. >> Okay. Yeah. >> But it's gr in Tibetan, which is to say probably at the Sino Tibetan level. >> There was some kind of dealer. I mean, I'm not going to >> unless the girl is a prefix in Tibet. Very very much like how is it written? Is it written like separately or is it >> No, it's written like it's written like this. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. It could be a fossilized prefix, but it's probably not a recent. >> That's the only way you can prefix a G to an R. >> Yeah. But but you can also write a G to before. >> No, you can't. Oh, you can't. >> No, you can for a Y, you can do both of those, but not for an R. Okay. >> Um, >> and actually, if you want to read an article about how gy next to each other is different from GY vertically, there's there's an article by a certain Nathan Hill about that. >> Okay. uh questions in the chat speak or does any can anyone else look at the for me if I look at the chat it's going to be a buck okay >> uh okay so now let's keep going around the room so uh >> so how do we make the top character start with a nasal of some kind It's from >> Can you say it again? >> So from H to So So it's the place to >> So it sounds to me like you're saying we change from ha to na. >> Yes. >> So So you think Okay. So, I just uh point out uh what the problem is very clearly and then you tell me your answer. We have one character with Na. >> Yeah. >> And one character with ha. >> Yeah. >> We need some way of making them from the same type of >> uh Yeah. Uh same same uh place of articulation. >> Yes. So what do you think now was? >> May I rise? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. >> Yes. And or or like maybe Yeah, it's a good suggestion. How about this one? >> What do you think it was? >> Uh so maybe more simplified than this one. >> Just write something than you think it was. >> Like do you think it was a P? >> No. No. >> No. Okay. So, >> oh, >> you think it was a K? >> No, >> it would work in terms of it organic. Yeah, >> but but under what circumstances do you think K changed to H? >> So, no, >> no, it's not a question of whether a K can change to an H. Of course, it can change to an H. But what was the conditioning environment in Chinese? Yeah. >> Because otherwise if all K is changed to H do you would have >> then we would have no K. Yeah. Yeah. >> So I don't do you have any thoughts this like like if I say this K >> then then then where do these K's come from in >> this series? >> Because these ones should all be H now. >> Yes. So, do you want to stick with K as your idea? >> No. Okay. >> What do you >> what's the alternative? >> What's the alternative? >> Well, if I may say something >> Yeah. uh Calbr's solutions uh the earliest solution for these phenomena was whenever you have two consonants uh that are present in the same phonetic series he believed that there was a cluster combining the two so if you have and then maybe you can put them together and see what comes out >> like and effectively that's what we do think it is >> but we write it uh like this, right? >> Yes. So, Colg would write it as a key. Yeah. Or something. >> Oh, yeah. He he would write like >> Yeah. >> something. And then the one who thought well that's ugly and doesn't make sense because just stacking sounds randomly. And so he had had done field work on mian languages and he had heard aspirated nas and and he said why can't we use these for Chinese? >> Yeah. >> And then I mean a ton of languages from the region have these. >> Yes. >> Including lots of Tibetan although it's very uh rare in lots of >> it's people didn't know that at that time. So the kind of knowledge we have now of the typ phonetic typology was not as widespread in the mid 20th century. >> Okay. Now remember >> uh some yeah uh so now I'm going to whiz through and basically say we use the same solution right for all alternations between uh h and nasals. So, uh, here's this this Yeah. So, so here's, you know, this one we just looked at. Here's another one with also verasal. Here's with M. Here's with Okay. Sorry. Mia. Yeah. In type B and so on. H. But now, uh, this is not an H. It's a T. Yeah. But the the this is kind of a what? AAM's razor, right? We've given ourselves the machinery already of voiceless nasals. So why don't we use them for everything that we can. Yeah. So uh in this case it's we we haven't had to use N in type A syllables so far, right? Which is to say uh think of it this way. Um if I have something like uh like uh like I say this becomes h then I might predict that this also becomes h right but actually I don't need it never comes up yeah so if it never comes up but I do get some some some t in series mixed with natals then why I propose this because because because I have because to have the machinery already available, right? Um, so so now I will just uh uh just let me get to uh whoops to this slide. Yes, what's the question is anyhow relevant in serious issues for like >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because uh Okay. So uh so actually the um um there's two uh so the famous example is right >> okay so this means the sky right >> so uh we think uh I don't I actually I don't know of a shong argument for this you can help me out if if you know one but we think it was pronounced like this and it's type a right uh so we think it was clin in uh in uh old Chinese. And then what happened was in the east uh this goes to uh T just like with we saw with N. Yeah. But in the west it goes to uh well H. Yeah. Just like in the other uh just like the M and the the did. Yeah. So that's why you get it in uh uh the uh >> the word for >> the word for India is uh >> yeah tenju which is hinduk right >> hinduka yeah so yeah it's exactly this is this is a piece of con confirming evidence >> yeah another piece of confirming evidence is the ancient word for zoroastaster Austrianism that's written with so with this character. Yeah. So, and it's in middle Chinese. >> It reflects a western dialect from Canu that had this pronunciation form. So you have and in fact with the other series that Nathan has shown you also have a sometimes. So for example, >> yeah, it's it's but it's it specifically refers to origin an area spoken to the west like yeah south of south of so it's fairly in the west and it's an area where the ancient change to her instead of so it's a direct feature and you have some degree of direct mixture in middle That's the reason why you have a few coming and this reading is preserved also in uh in pie. So the in for for >> so there's a dialect of Chinese actually that had a uh this this correspond and so you mentioned the series the association series but there is a um word family relationship of TN with other words. So the word for shun for instance >> well why why do we reconstruct with an L at all rather than an okay so it would be so it would be like this in your transcription I guess and it comes from me >> and you have also another word at the end which is that comes from l Yeah. So and are all related uh uh ethmologically. >> Yeah. >> It's uh Yeah. >> So the city in Austria nowadays would be pronounced as >> Penins Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Now you know >> I thought you were talking about the the town of Tiki. Yeah. [laughter] >> Okay. >> Lince. Yeah. >> So now your homework is to translate L to into old Chinese. theater. [laughter] >> Okay. Oh, yeah. So, I just wanted to show this. This is the overall summary of how how we use this is how I say how we use voiceless nasals to clean up shan series. Yeah. And I think it's nice because you have uh to use this you know terminology that Baxter uses that comes from Roman Yakabson the grave initials that's to say the the labials and the veers they oftenimes do the same thing in the development from uh old Chinese middle Chinese so they both become h whereas the acute or the coronals they become t uh and then as we discussed the the the sha in type A syllables is a little bit bizarre and uh it bothers Marine and it also bothers me but uh look it fills a slot and uh it's useful machinery to have on hand. Um okay so that's where we ended yesterday and now I move on to the future. Yeah. So uh we have some shang series that mix veers with uh other stuff. Yeah. [laughter] Uh with with uh let's call them gutturals or anyhow the glottle stop and the the y initial. So so let's just think about y. You know we already used it for L so we can't maybe use it for L here. Actually, you might even say like, oh, it like a maybe it should be uh well, let's look an example. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so, uh so let's let's just say okay. So, what what do we have here? We have uh okay, we have K uh we have global stop. We have uh h and we have the yeah so this one was let's say in IPA X and this one in IPA V gamma yeah so um actually in in if if we're happy to reconstruct uh if we're happy to reconstruct um fricatives in old Chinese the only real problem is the gallto >> right because these fricatives are veer yeah uh but then you do have to ask yourself why is it some series have this kind of contact and some don't because we have a lot of pure verer series or we as you saw we have verer series with lateral or whatnot. So you know but anyhow the real problem here is the glottle stop. Yeah because glottle stop is really not the same place of articulation as uh a lever. Yeah. So does anyone have any thoughts about what it could be? >> Could be a lingial. Could be a lingial lurel. >> Well, I don't know what you mean by lingel in articuly phonetic term. You mean like like they have in in um Arabic? >> Yeah. Can can you actually we have an Arabic specialist. Can you make some lingials for us? >> I I do how many lurils do you have available to you in in Arabic? >> Two. >> Two. Okay. Is there we need more than two? Haida has Haida has four and five. >> Okay. >> As well. So, >> but I'd rather not do >> you can't do that as well. >> I mean, I can, but I I don't want to contrast them. >> Okay. >> So, uh so yeah, like actually that's I mean for all intents and purposes that is the the idea [clears throat] that that we have. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. But uh any other ideas? You know the question the question is really where do global stops come from you >> for me at least >> yeah that's I mean >> that's actually I I honestly can't think of anything else personally >> you could think of a t clusters yeah the complicated clusters that we end up with >> can you think of like an a parallel from typology >> or adjectives are becoming >> oh okay yeah so it could be objectives yeah >> yeah but only having an objective uh would be really >> there's a hand up in the chat by the way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I >> you can you see that? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Who who is it? Well, you >> uh please go ahead and just uh unmute yourself and ask your question or make your comment. >> Oh, me? I had two comments uh that um that that I mean it's not shouldn't be considered that weird that that u could become a glottle because I mean it's happened elsewhere where in the Alaskan dialect of dialects of haida the the the the uvular posa becomes a a fingial that can be stop a stop or fricative and then in Arabic I was like only two like I was thinking with the lenials like unless I misheard something else with that cuz I was thinking the gloss of the the and then the oh just I don't know the I just got confused sorry that was >> that's no no it's fine I think let's say you're agreeing that one source of gl is ubvulars yeah uh and uh the other one we have is adjectives so >> yeah it's not weird >> yeah so so then you can just take your pick do you want adjectives or do you want uh Chinese uh and then I would actually say that uh this is another question I would ask from the the other side and I mean anybody here like Schustler or uh or um you know Wangli or something. How do they explain the occurrence of the glow stop in the inmu in uh in genmu style uh series >> fanatic series and I think people say ah you know glottle ver not so far apart it's just not a big deal yeah um but what I would say is that means you're giving up on the ch hypothesis and you don't have any way of determining when you should give up on the chan hypothesis you say now I now I insist on now I just give up. Yeah. So why give up? Why not just >> Well, let's see another possibility is that well I'm not I don't think that's what Wii would be proposing but let's say glotop stop is the base uh of the series and then if you have a a prefix K that occurs in this series then K eats up the clos and ends up as the main consonant. That is in fact one of the things that Baxter and Cigar propose. Yeah. And I hate the idea. Uh >> because I think it they've given themselves too many ways of doing the same thing, you know. >> Uh uh but also >> like [clears throat] like just say, you know, like so for instance, they have they have a reconstruction like this. >> Just say it for me. Or no, but there's a little vowel there, right? >> The glove stop. >> Yeah. Okay. Maybe it's not so bad. I don't know. >> I don't like it. [laughter] >> This is right. >> As an actual cluster, I think it's impossible to say. >> This is Camar. This is like a Camar Cisco. >> To me, maybe very quickly. Maybe it's that I don't like the it's maybe I haven't been sufficiently reminding myself that there's a vowel there when they put a period there. So it looks to me like a clutter and then it looks impossible. >> Anyhow, uh let's just say um so I'm going to say let's go with uvular as the source of the glottle. >> Now of course I have to make Yeah, >> because you have u in other language of family not adjectives. Maybe that's >> that's a good reason. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't Yeah. Yeah. That's a good enough reason. I mean I I Uh, adjectives aren't from the same place of articulation either, right? You have adjective T, adjective K. >> They're secondarily articulate with the >> But yeah, but if you would only only have them for videos, that would be >> that would be weird. Yeah. So, yeah. So, I I think the objective story would say, what are you going to do with your adjective T and your objective P and whatnot? Uh, and we don't have objectives in this part of Asia, whereas uers are >> Suzuki everywhere. >> Yeah. This this I'm going to have to edit out of the video now. Yeah. [laughter] Okay. Uh, we have a colleague who finds things that no one else can hear. Yeah. And he unfortunately doesn't ever record his fieldwork. So, that's a little bit uh uh of a problem. But uh how about then we take the the x the back to a Yeah. And why don't we take the back to a a >> Yeah. I'm I'm not very good at making these sounds. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So then here's what we have. >> Q QH and capital G. Yeah. Uh and then you say what about the the actual K what does the actual K's come from and I would say let's not worry about it now the answer is is backar reconstruct cluster yeah so uh but but I'm trying to stick to simplex initials uh for this presentation uh anyhow uh so uh then A well let's just look at here see so here we have type A capital G becomes uh is it shamu >> shamu >> yeah uh but type B capital G uh is a way we can get R Y only before front vowels and actually this is one of the things that I think is I don't know a really nice feature of their system is that here they've they found something that actually looks like a sound Right. That makes sense. Yeah. >> And now it's an empirical question like uh do do you really only need it before front vowels? Yeah. And then of course uh what's a front vowel requires that you understand when they reconstruct front vowels which I haven't talked to to you at all about. Uh but any case I think this is this is actually my favorite proposal of theirs in terms of it really is like a linguistic proposal you know uh okay and then um well anyhow here's some more things these are these are for uh label viewers and we haven't actually reconstructed label viewers in general yet uh but we >> pardon >> we have hinted at >> we've hinted at it yeah [laughter] we've hinted at it but basically just let's say you've got the medials. They have to the medial W's, they have to come from somewhere. Yeah. Uh if you want to know more about why we reconstruct labor wheelers, uh you can talk to us during the lunch break. Yeah. Um and >> can we go go up really quick? Two two up. Um okay, I'm trying to see um inside the syllables. >> Yeah. I was like, "Couldn't we just get um the uh from from from the voiceless club like does it ever do you get a lot of stop in in type these syllables?" >> Wait, what do you want to >> Oh, okay. So, Oh, yeah. No, you do. Okay, never mind. I see now. Um, no, wait. So, in uh right, we have uh um Oh, no. That's a type symbol, isn't it? Yeah. >> Yes. Well, it has a little a right now, but that's can't be you guys. So, that one because there's an e in there, but [clears throat] >> Oh, >> that's a good question. >> Yeah. >> Uh, >> I didn't get it. >> Okay. So, >> yeah, I put an a there, but I've written it with an I. So, so is it a type A or a type B syllable? >> Uh, yeah, this is a type B syllable. >> It's a type B syllable. So, it's just a mistake on my PowerPoint. And then and then my secondary question would be can uh so so the the the u stop that occur in uh in >> type yes I guess it does occur in type of yes okay yeah never mind also in type eight yes okay >> so uh >> no I'm I'm good >> so I mean I'm going to sum up what all the uvular developments are in I would say on. Yeah. >> Okay. So, uh and then I I will say that uh Baxter and Cigar kind of use capital G uv labio labio u voiced label uvular as their default reconstruction for what do you call this thing? >> Yunu. >> Yunu. Yeah. >> Yan. Yes. Um, and I feel a little bit uncomfortable with that. >> Me too. >> Uh, >> because you don't have a word anymore. >> Yeah, >> this would be originally reconstructed a W. >> Yeah. So, Schustler reconstructs it as a W. Uh, I mean, I'm not sure that it it like I'm not sure I like. So, here's a typological question for the typologists in lang. Do languages that have labouvulars also have initial W's? >> Yeah, I don't know. Like we won't be able to answer that here. >> Lots of Caucasian languages. >> Yeah. Well, but the the question is like I should have asked it the other way. Are there any languages that have labial uvular that don't have an initial W? Because that's what we're proposing for old Chinese. >> Yeah, that is >> and and that seems odd. Yeah. So uh and then also I'll I'll just point out that uh y uh can come from L and can come from capital G. >> So Baxter cigar do not end up with any initial y in old Chinese. And this is something that Guom objects to. He and Shustler, it's maybe one of the things they agree about is agree is is that old Chinese did have some syllables that start with ya. But I'm very pleased to tell you that uh Sagar is going to come back and take revenge on the people who [laughter] who who object to there being no yuzu in his old Chinese by accounting for all of the cases that uh that the opposite side has put forward and that will be in a in a soon issue of BSAS. So okay, please subscribe to BSOS in order to get in your mailbox this [laughter] exciting article. >> Yeah, >> if there is no Yeah, I'm also slightly less worried about there not being a Right. So So I mean not having is kind of weird. Uh not having a word is kind of weird, but and if you don't have a year, I'm okay with also not having a >> Okay. Well, well then as long as Marion is happy, I'm happy. Yeah. Uh I don't personally I really have no intuitions about this kind of typological stuff and I would say like you know like uh if I were back I would say look if I if I can get everything I need >> with what I have then AAM would tell me not to keep adding more initials. Yeah. Uh and and that's fair, right? >> Now GM would come along and say like, well, Tibetan has uh these cognates that have yah. Uh and then if I were back cigar say, yeah, they used to be a voiced uvular. [laughter] >> Yeah, it's changed into y. >> Uh okay. Um but uh yeah, I just mentioned this. Yeah. So here's uh some uh examples of uh like Wong uh Wong is you know the most common surname in China. Uh and it started with a voiced ubvular. Uh indeed a voiced labio uvular. So you know next time you can talk to someone you can say you know. [laughter] Okay. Uh uh right. Uh okay. So where did this idea come from? It was an idea of Panvu Yun. Uh although he does it a little bit differently than Back Cigar and the details are not very interesting. Uh so and then Baxter Cigar uh actually well I just say what they do in 2014 but they have an article also I think from 2009 where they say oh we really like this idea of Panguans and we're going to implement it this way. And then they implement it a different way in 2014. And one thing I would really criticize them for is they never tell you why they've changed their mind. They always just say, "Well, now we've decided to do it this way." And then you're like, "Well, that's funny cuz you convinced me in 2009." >> So now I feel very skeptical of what you're doing. Yeah. If it Yeah. I feel like I'm being uh just uh you know what's the taken down the garden path or something. Anyhow, uh but uh I've asked them about that and they say, "Look, it's we're just life is too short to always clean up after yourself. You you have to you have to move ahead. Yeah. Don't look back. >> Yeah. Okay. And then I will mention uh I I don't know how strongly you want to take these but uh Sasha Vvin uh said uh gave some positive evidence for the uers by saying look there's some uh some of these kind of titles uh and I find the second one better than the first one uh substantially but so and this is actually a word we have it in uh in Mongolian data isn't it isn't it what's in ulb no that's not That's >> but they do have but they do have >> they do have this word in Mongolian as well. >> So something like Yeah. >> Uh so I think that's I think that's nice. Yeah. >> A bit weird that that the voice series is being used to borrow what is I think it's voiceless in Turk, right? >> Well, it's probably not borrowing from old Turk. >> Yeah. From a parongolic language. >> Yeah. And would they have been >> I don't know. You know, I'm not I'm not an expert in uh in pre era Mongolic. Yeah. >> Uh >> uh and then I will just point out that there's there's something wrong with the uh you know the in the first one. Yeah. Like it's it's not a very it's I don't know it's a provocative comparison but the first one has phonological problems as a comparison. >> Uh and I don't know where he's getting his protoan from anyhow. But >> may I ask you are you will be the second one in because there is a lot of >> huge ch >> Yes it's definitely chan because so this character has three ten and chan is used as a p personal name. >> Yeah but never was pronounced like that. So how do we know? Because we have we have a so not show but we have uh commentaries on for instance that provide you uh readings for some characters and here everybody knows that it's in V in middle Chinese. >> Yeah. >> Uh okay. So then uh here is my summary of the development of uvulars in type A. In this case, it was kind of more convenient to put them on two different slides. So, these are type A syllables uh where basically you just debalize them, right? >> So, I actually also think that's just quite elegant, right? Like it's like >> you basically have one sound change, debalize your uvulence. Yeah. Um uh and then here's one uh which is a little less uh elegant uh but also makes sense if you think of type B as uh kind of um facilitating palletization or in fact maybe even having a pal. So it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I may if I may add we so so you see that for the in type A you have in type B you have this YMU and both andu are restricted to specific division. So only occurs with a type. So first second and third division and only occurs with third division anyway. So this the sound anyway you couldn't have possibly a a changing to uh in a type syllable anyway >> because because they just don't have Yeah Chinese [clears throat] >> uh >> is are we out of time? >> Uh how much time we still have 10 minutes? >> Still have 10 minutes. Okay. Well, I will say that uh Okay. Uh, I'm I'm going to say something, but I'm worried it will sound like nonsense. So, let's try it. We know uh from a whole variety of sources that in the Han dynasty, the verers in typea a syllables were pronounced as ubular. >> Mhm. >> So, uh those include those those evidences. You can't say that in English, but there we go. uh >> those pieces of evidence >> those pieces of evidence yeah [laughter] include that uh loans into mongen from typea a syllable verers are pronounced in mongen with uvillers so that's one type of evidence and and mongen would have been in contact with Chinese primarily from the han period >> uh and then another type of evidence is Buddhist transcriptions use only type B characters to write veers. So that must be because the type A ones sounded like uvers and there aren't this >> there aren't. Yeah. So uh uh so there are yeah anyhow uh yeah and this is actually linked to this this there's a very exciting article coming out soon in diaphronica about the pronunciation of middle Chinese that I think will argue that yeah in in even in in the chun period the type a uh vers were pronounced as ubvulars. Okay. So I just want to point out that that means the uvular the inherited uvular must have been well and truly gone by the time uh the the veers started alphonically to be pronounced as ubular. Now has does anyone feel totally confused? >> Very confused about the term. So what's coming? Okay, I will write this and uh people people who know people who know Chinese characters better than me can uh provide some Chinese characters. But let's say from old Chinese, we had ca and uh just to kind of keep keep it real, I'll say and ca and we had ca and ca. Yeah, but this we'll say in like the Joe period. Okay. Now in middle Chinese we have uh a and ha and still ca and c right now I am saying that in the han period this one uh in let's just I'll make it so we're only talking about type a syllables right that will just to make our lives easier. Yeah, this one was pronounced I put it in square brackets to mean pronounce as in the Hong period. We know this from uh and I'll say from from uh which is yeah uh loans and Buddhist transcriptions transcriptions. >> Yeah. And then Okay. So, so to explain the Buddhist transcriptions, Sanskrit doesn't have u right. >> Okay. So now I explain about the Buddhist transcriptions. Sanskrit CA is only ever transliterated with Chinese type B. >> Let me get some examples. >> Yeah, >> maybe Sakya like the the Shakya like the Shakyamuni. >> How do you write Shakyamuni in Chinese? Yeah. So, I don't know. Come and write it. >> But this one has in in in Sanskrit. So, >> you wouldn't need a car, right? >> Okay. How do you say >> in parallel shotgun? >> It's okay. In practical shotgun, it wasn't shot. >> Oh, I see. Okay. Yes, that's a good Okay. Okay. >> So, this is this j is a t syllable, right? I think it's I think it's in in middle trans. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, so okay. So, so, so now now I can tell you find me a type a verer initial syllable in Buddhist transcription. So you have here >> homework. Yeah, it doesn't exist. >> So you have here a table of these kind of transcriptions. Yeah. By initial consonants >> and you can see for yourself. >> Why is this? >> This is from my course the course I gave. >> I I send it to everybody. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, so, so the argument is the reason they always use type B syllables to write Sanskrit verers >> like sounds like C is because the type A syllables were pronounced as B. Okay. So if in the Han period this K was pronounced already Ka then these ones must already have changed to uh >> to to to something other than K. Yeah. So probably to what they are in middle Chinese. So that's just a question of relative timing. We have to have lost the ubular by the Han dynasty. Yeah. So you see here the the sent the the syllable G transcribed as G in middle Chinese. Yeah. And never with a well in this case it's also because G wouldn't you don't have a G but even with the the so for instance uh here are place names from C. Yeah. And you it's an exercise actually from this course. You have to guess what's the Sanskrit behind it. Yeah. So that's for your homework. Yeah. >> And I'm mistaken or f does not I he means rate of fraction. >> He does not put the I in. >> Yeah. >> No, >> this is middle. So So actually he puts it in his middle Chinese but not in his Han Chinese. >> Yeah. Yeah. So um yeah, actually I will say his f Chinese is very useful. >> So convenient. >> Yeah, it's kind of like if you just take Chayun and you and you rewrite it as conservatively as you can, then you get his Chinese reconstruction. >> Yeah, >> those are the type B. Here's the type A. >> Yeah. So those ones are really elegant because they just debugalize. Is everyone okay with debalization? No. >> No. >> How do you say debucalize in Chinese? >> Uh, well, I'm not too sure. [laughter] Yeah. You can think of it as as as uh the articulators no longer close. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So like rather than P, you would get P and rather than you know uh you would sorry T, you would just get I don't know. >> H. Yeah. >> It's it's it's it's kind of this Yeah. Um, >> I have a question. >> Yeah. >> How do you know in dentistry it's in early Buddhist language? It has a >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. >> Okay. >> I just uh repeat it with just the the the two syllables. Okay. So we have type A CA and type B CA right only this one gets used for Sanskrit. So Sanskrit had a a ver so that means this type A1 must be something else. Yeah it's it can't be a a Ver. Now, now the question is what is it from Buddhist evidence? You have no idea. Yeah. Maybe it was a billeial trill or something. Yeah. Uh but in Mongen loans, it is. So these two pieces of evidence go nicely together, right? So this one, this one in is and this one in Sanskrit is. And you never get the arrow going this way. Yeah. So that's why we think it's uh in uh yeah but I will actually say that this is a point that there's absolutely no controversy on as far as I'm aware like >> whether you're from the six vow school or not or any everybody thinks Han dynasty verers were pronounced as u type a syllable and >> and the type comes from as we saw right >> no yeah or let's say it's from ka >> no no Chinese terms Yeah. No, in all Chinese terms, it's it's just it's no B >> like still. >> Yeah. You you you also would have and both in type A and B. Yeah. >> So, >> it's >> B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B is just a thing that leads to paralization in general. Yeah. >> But actually, but actually it's like it suggests this transcription that it hadn't paralyzed by the Hond, right? >> So, this is maybe a problem with us reconstructing immediately yet. But anyhow,