Old Chinese 10: Chinese Historical Phonology | Guillaume Jacques & Nathan Hill | Leiden 2026

Yeah. >> So with the MR cluster um >> you can pick. >> Yeah. So in in in the Yang >> meaning Yeah. So um if I mistake correctly that that is at least in the slide attributed to and probably by way back since I got it as dialect of mixture with one oppose and the other a further removed prefix but um I mean there is this word at least in Japanese but I I think it also exists in in um in Chinese um so Um, which to me looks just like I mean it seems unlikely to me that you get like this compound um where one is from one dialect, the other one is from another. >> No, no, no. That's not what it's going on there. No, that is >> that is a ling ling. You say it again. >> Uh, and uh, actually I'll say something about these words and then see what you think. Yeah. So, um, uh, I guess there must be some that are very old, but but you you really start to go hog wild with these kind of things in, uh, Han Dynasty rapsid, right? The fu poetry. Yeah. >> And, um, uh, the the I don't know the uh, I was actually talking to uh, uh, where is he? Ah yes [laughter] I was talking to him about uh these lingmings yesterday and the Chinese uh scholars like to classify them in terms of their let's say reduplicated bomes is maybe a word for them >> uh and uh some have the same rhyme some have the same initials some have both the same initial and the same rhyme um but the way we uh like to um uh think of them is like I'll I'll just uh imagine you know we have >> you have to turn on the video. Oh >> yeah, let me do that. >> Sorry. Yeah, >> I'll start writing anyhow and then the video will turn up. But imagine we have um >> uh we we we have, you know, uh Batman and Robin are fighting the Joker and one of them, you know, hits the other one and then we have something like Yeah. Okay. Then uh if we want to actually use it, you know, in a full poem, then we can say like uh we can say, well, I guess we could say k bam. Yeah. >> And we could also say something like oops, come bam. >> Yeah. Or something like that. Yeah. >> Uh and uh Yeah. And then and then uh there are uh a lot of examples of this where it's something like I don't know I'm going to give you the the word river in some form. So you would get like >> Yeah. And uh and and these are the examples we were discussing yesterday where uh where where pretty like let's say uh in in in in the I don't know in the tradition that we're in these kinds of words are seen as evidence of uh you know um per se. Yeah. And actually like I I'll just give you an an example because it's in my mind about how this sort of thing has been used is that um uh Z handle has pointed out that there are a lot of these that have a ver and then a and then an L. Yeah. In middle Chinese. Yeah. But there are none that are a dental and then an L. Yeah. So I'll say it like this. So then he has argued that uh that with dentals uh that basically we shouldn't reconstruct uh uh this which is what we what we have been reconstructing in this class. Yeah. But instead you should reconstruct this uh and that would uh account for the fact that there's no uh uh that have this kind of structure. Yeah. So that's you know that's an example of how somebody kind of recently has used these reduplicative bomes to argue about how old Chinese works. So to use your example, uh we would have something like um we would have something like the the word in old Chinese was well no it should be yeah would be oh of a rather than because e would be in >> oh yeah you're right. >> Yeah. >> Um uh and uh and then in another dialect it was mang. >> Okay. So then this one went to Whoops. went to just lang. >> Mhm. >> And this one went to just you know well no it would be like yeah >> okay. Uh and then you have noticed a lingu where you know in middle Chinese what you have is something like uh ming ling uh where this can be whoops this can be understood as you know I don't I like say I don't know in in some kind of let's say quasi old Chinese something like uh you know raining. Uh, oops, I should do Yeah, it's raining lane. And >> now, you know, I there's all sorts of questions I would like to ask. Like my my own observation I I'm not much of a philologist when it comes to to Chinese but my own observation is that these uh don't like the very oldest Chinese doesn't really have this ling so probably it they actually start being used when the constant clusters are sort of on the way out >> as a kind of way of >> reinforcing the constant clusters for certain pragmatic ends. Yeah. Um but then also like how are they used you know in poetry uh and and like what is the semantics of these formations I I don't know much literature about this and actually I would say one of the biggest problems in our field in general is that the >> the people who work on phenology are over here and the people who work on like text interpretation and text are over here and there's effectively zero communication across these uh different >> uh you know disciplines. Now there's a little bit of a sign I would say that among you know your generation that this is starting to break down. So that's something that's extremely >> happy making. Yeah. [laughter] >> So yeah. >> Are you satisfied? Yeah. My my question. >> Okay. >> All right. Any other questions we go? Okay. So we had this nice discussion yesterday about whether it's Oh. Oh. Can I minimize this? >> Yes. Uh let me do >> uh about whether to use cognates and uh I I would say let's say you know I don't know for the purposes of getting through my slides I'll say it's fine to take inspiration from um from uh from cognates from other languages and why doesn't it go forward? Okay, try again. uh so we shouldn't let cognates change our theory of the phenology or phonotactics like as as you know in the first instance uh but we can let cognates especially resolve ambiguities in particular etmologies I I think right so uh I'll just I'll give you one little example that actually g alluded to it's extremely hard to tell the difference in uh in old Chinese between various things uh I'll give you a >> professor I'm not sure people can't hear you because that seems to be frozen like the the the little kind of No, no, to the left. >> Oh, so so now it's moving again. >> Okay. Um >> I can hear someone. >> So, uh let's say like sing versus sing. Very hard to tell apart in old Chinese because there's a sound change of in to in that happens really early. Yeah. Like like before the shing was written. Yeah. And then I'll give you another example that actually I was talking to Oh, Josiah's not in this. >> Oh, yeah. I was talking to Josiah about which is the word for fly. Uh >> yeah, >> you you mean the word for for no >> for fly? >> Yeah. Well, I I'm not very good at characters, so it >> um so it's reconstructed. >> Is this right? This is space. This is fly. To fly, the verb to fly. Yeah, I understood the the the insect. Okay. No, no, no. Yes. P is in. >> Yes. So, um, so Tibetan has pur >> maybe with the book. >> Yeah. So, in old Chinese, it's extremely hard to tell the difference between uh between and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh so >> because let me just say because you remember last week we we learned that the schwah so in open syllables yields yo when it's preceded by a label. So you have sim similar things in in closed syllables. Yeah. So that's that's the the one of the problems. >> Yeah. So so these are very hard to distinguish and these are very hard to distinguish. Yeah. Uh so I am perfectly happy to uh to say that that the word for firewood must be seen because the Tibetan cognitive is she. >> Yeah. >> Because like from the perspective of Chinese it's kind of six of one half a dozen of another. There's no way to tell. So we might as well go with the one that just makes our comparisons look better, >> right? I mean as long as you know that's what you're doing, I think it's okay. Uh for this one I like for this particular word is interesting because what's the what did you say the malone word is like something like pi yeah >> is not here. >> Oh he's not here. >> He he think the malone word is is pi. >> Uh so this would go much better with >> yes >> than with Yeah. So it could be the Tibetan actually you know changed into let's say after like after labials you know something like that. Yeah. So you have to be a little bit careful. Um but um yeah anyhow uh >> sorry I have a question. So why do we reconstruct the air like the R at the end of the syllable? >> Because you want it to be a a y. You want it to be this. >> What do you want it to be? >> Oh no no no. It's not a division to a syllable. >> So how do you make >> what's what's the middle Chinese? is it's like it's like pi or something. >> No with a >> I with a bar. Yeah. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> So, it's a way the one discovered by one. >> Yeah. Okay. Um I don't want to talk about the final art with your >> permission [laughter] >> because otherwise we will only talk about that this morning. >> Yeah. But it it but it has nothing to do with uh medial to sorry with with division two. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So yeah, you can pretend that I was doing it with final J the whole time. >> Um yeah. So let's look at some cognitives. Ah yeah this is actually from work of Giamac and his students. So um yeah so here are some some cases. So so this is actually it's nice that I introduced this idea of Zev handles. The idea is is maybe uh both these uh are sources of division too. Yeah. So how do we tell them Oops, I wrote the same thing twice. Uh so we've been telling you that it should be um always medial R that gives division too. Yeah. But as you you saw that Zev handle argued on the basis of religion. So maybe sometimes the R was actually at the beginning and that created the rodicness of the um of the syllable. So here are some examples. So um Baxter and cigar reconstruct uh for uh this word mass. Yeah. Okay. Uh and uh Japok has Yeah. So here the japoke seems to confirm that indeed the medial R is a medial R. Right. Uh and then here is uh a C2 ch word. uh tandu. So it seems to confirm this word claw through. Yeah. Uh that is again it's a medial r. So this is actually so so far it's kind of what we were already doing like medial r causes the division too. And now you see that there are some very nice cognates in in other languages. Yeah. And then here's another one. Uh so su chok has I don't know how to pronounce the upside down a. You you do it. uh >> cap. Okay. Uh and then we have pratz in uh in Chinese. Yeah. >> It's not completely. So this involves some hypothesis about sematic changes. But >> yeah, but I mean look, if you break your enemy, >> what does it mean? Yeah. Um, okay. But we also have some cases that suggest maybe it was a pre-initial R that made division 2. And here are some examples. So uh maybe so so back cigar would hear reconstructum. Uh but we are proposing like or I am proposing right here right now. Maybe it's Yeah. And then that would uh match with uh sidu say tap. Yeah, >> tarpam. >> This is a tone mark the circumlex. Yeah. >> Uh okay. And then here is uh eyebrow. So actually back would be would construct. Yeah. >> Uh but uh japok has tma t. Yeah. So maybe the r was pre-initial r. Yeah. Um, I I I just feel this like sense of discomfort coming from somewhere in the room. Is Is it the case? Oh. Oh, look who rocked up after I I was talking about the malone word for fly and uh you weren't here. Yeah. Hi. Yes. Okay. >> Um, >> yeah. So, I I don't know. I'm getting the feeling that that people either are aren't following or are emotionally disturbed. Yeah, [laughter] >> it's fine. It's it's very it's very shocking like as a Chinese speaker to have seen this for the first time. It's fine. It's perfectly fine. >> But you but like is is more shocking than >> definitely less. So I would say ra is is very shocking to me to see this for the first time. But it's >> Oh, okay. Well, >> I'm glad to hear you are fine with Yeah. >> So, so yeah. So, let's say that for those who have not done or Tibetan are perfectly fine those languages >> perfectly normal but >> yeah yeah yeah I'll actually give it well I I I well I think we're getting to it but why don't I give it right now let's just look at the word for horse. >> Yeah. Uh so uh and this one is one of the characters I can oops I can in fact write >> it's still wrong but it's still [laughter] okay. Uh it's in old Chinese it's Yeah. Uh it's in Okay. This is a asterisk right? >> Yeah. Type a >> type A. Yeah. Uh so the old Tibetan word which is not cognate. It cannot possibly be cognate. >> But uh and why not? Because horses aren't 5,000 years old or something. >> Those who saw the lecture yesterday evening know why. Because the horses were domesticated between 2,700 and 2002 before common era. and they reach China only the domesticated horses reach China only by 1,00 400 300 something. >> Yeah, I would actually say kind of for all intents and purposes uh the script was invented at the same moment that the horse arrived which was 1250 BC. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, so so they can't possibly be just for on archaeological grounds, they can't possibly be talking. But anyhow, here is the Tibetan word. Okay. >> One Tibetan. >> Yeah. I mean, but look, we also have in English steed and marser, >> you know. Um, >> so uh it would be convenient if we could move the R to the front, right? That's um and let's say that's one thing to say, but the other thing to say is, you know, Tibetan add the word. They said, right? Like so these kinds of uh they >> still do in both of them. They still say >> they don't because they don't have this word, do they? >> Okay. No, but I mean I mean for the the initial R is still there. >> Yeah, the initial R is still there. Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't know about that particular word. >> Yeah, this word is only in old Tibetan. It it's lost in classical Tibetan. >> So are you proposing old Tibetan just directly got this from Chinese given that the Chinese had first? >> No, not at all. I I I mean I wasn't at the lecture last night, >> but I think and you heard it here first that both of these words are borrowed from uh arvant in uh in in Sanskrit basically and and I don't know that much about Indo-Aryan but the uh nominative singular of this word in uh protoindo is apparently ar which means >> a horse. It means a horse. >> Yeah. So if you just look at this, it's it's perfect, right? Because if you hear, you know, as [clears throat] N, you get M. Yeah. And this is effectively the Chinese form. And then if you hear the nasalization on the vowel as a ver nasal, you get the Tibetan form. Well, that's what we think. And we as Honest Fner teacher and your humble servant. Yeah. Um, so that's where I think it comes from. >> And then since I'm talking about this, uh, I'll say a little bit more about the word for horse. Yeah, it's appropriate because of the talk last night. >> Um, so so the horse arrived in China the same moment the script came. So I think it's worth wonder asking ourselves whether maybe they got the horse and the script from the same place. Uh, and there's a single civilization. Let's draw a little map of I don't know this is Eurasia, you know, here's Japan. Yeah. Um, so there was a civilization that I forget the name of archaeologically, but it must have come up yesterday. Uh, and uh, >> well, but the Ox civiliz archaeological complex. >> No, I don't. >> Yeah. Is it? Yeah, it's >> Andronovo. Yeah. >> Yeah. Or it's it's either Sashta or Androno. Yeah. Uh but anyhow uh we have a a a horse like sorry not a horse we have a chariot from the tomb of Fuhao in the Shan dynasty. >> It has the same kind of axle as a miniature toy chariot discovered in Armenia. >> Uh and and and this civil there's one archaeological civilization that at that time went from uh Anatolia here >> to China here right with Armenia sort of here. So we have exactly the same kind of chariot kind of here and let's say here. Yeah. And we know what language this culture spoke because here they were the uh upper class of the um of the Hurans. So they were the Matani. Yeah. The Matani were the upper class of the Hurans and they spoke Sanskrit. So we have good reason to think that this whole they spoke kind of pre-sanskrit or sort of parasanskrit. So we have every reason to think that this civilization uh is so the right time, right place, right language, right phology. Uh and I would say that this is the way I would tell it. These people didn't have writing. Yeah. Uh and they didn't need writing because they were uh central Asian step warrior types. Yeah. But here in in Hurya they interacted with kind of uh I mean to use it in the technical sense civilization right like please people who had cities >> and then they interacted with China. So what I imagine is somebody you know came to China and he said oh it's funny you guys have whatever slaves and uh and palaces and taxes. uh you're just like the people in Mesopotamia, but you seem not to have this thing writing. And then they're trying to say, "Oh, what is this writing?" And then they said, "Uh, well, you know, it's like somehow you draw pictures to make words on write on on, you know, that's uh I think that's my theory." Yeah. >> And just to be clear, it doesn't mean that like we can look for uh commonalities between let's say kuna form and Chinese. It's more like Cherokee. It's like the idea of writing itself. It's not makes sense >> the particular characters. Yeah. >> And then it independently went into old Tibetan. You're saying like >> Yeah. Independently went into old Tibetan from from the same people wandering around at the same time. >> There were there were probably Iranian speakers at the very western edge of the Tibetan plateau. Not not probably there were they were right into the like actually you know um >> um uh >> what is the code >> no just a second the the apenages of so when when the Mongols took over Tibet they they they divided Tibet like most of the world into what are called apenages where you sort of say you know my cousin gets this one you get this one and uh western Tibet uh was part of the ilk. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So like Yeah. So yeah. So you know, iron is not very far from Tibet. Yeah. In a sense. Okay. Back to uh work. Uh but I hope I've scandalized you because that was the point. Yeah. >> Uh so uh now uh face. Oh, this is a great word actually. Yeah. Uh uh uh because we have it because it Tibet has the R too, right? >> Tibet has M. >> Yeah, >> I'm not sure it's cognitive. >> Uh well, okay. >> So in Japan. >> Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. [laughter] So there's faith. Uh okay. And then here's steel. Okay. Actually, it doesn't need the R. It's a it's a position. It's a it's a word in which you can't tell. uh because because the the R and the non-R merge. But let's say if there was an R, let's put at the beginning because then it matches Tibetan and Japok. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And then uh how about this one? Shell or bark. Uh so how about we say instead of uh uh and then let's uh uh compare it with this C2 word turco. Okay. And then I just need to apologize here. Uh I'm using Baxter and cigars uh notation where this means type A. Yeah. >> And don't worry about its pronunciation. Yeah. And then no thingy means type B. Yeah. >> Um okay. So uh yeah, cognates also so maybe I don't give the example of horse maybe I thought it would be too controversial or something but anyhow uh cognates can also help us rule out the rodic. So I told you there are circumstances where we can't tell whether Chinese had the rotic. Right? So one is this word for uncle, mother's brother which is maybe it's goo, maybe it's g. Yeah. But if you look at cognates we have aku uh in in Tibetan and we have aku in uh in uh japuk. So um >> uh sorry in bragbar in situ. Yeah. Uh so uh probably we don't need the R in Chinese, right? Let's get rid of the R. Yeah. Uh and then here's another one to bend where in old Chinese we can't tell was it croc or was it Well here japok has uh so meaning to curve. So let's get rid of the r. Yeah, I think this is these are all legitimate things to do with cognates because they're all cases where the old Chinese is underdetermined. Right. Okay. And then here's one belly which is either p or pr in old Chinese. So maybe it means so so then we have in situ chok we have the pork and in Tibetan we have ps. Uh so maybe it's has no r. Yeah. Okay. >> If I may it could also be puck or Yeah. So it could be also puck. >> It could be puke. >> So it disambiguous both the r and the vowel. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. Could it could be awah. >> Yeah, it could be awah. >> Uh, okay. So, that was what I was going to say about cognates >> and maybe it was the most I don't know titillating part. Yeah. >> Um, so now on to loan words used by Baxter Cigar and I will look at these for Vietkic, Mongen, and Krai languages. Okay. So, uh, Gom will be very excited about the Vietic ones, I suppose. Uh, so, um, so, uh, other than Vietnamese, Vietic languages are like woefully underdocumented. So, if any of you wants to go document some Vietc languages, that would be a great service to mankind. Yeah. >> Uh, so, uh, >> and actually, we sent, uh, this station by Albert. Yeah, we sent Albert. >> Yeah, you >> I sort of was under the impression from Albert that he was a little bit disappointed to not have found more prefixes, but uh you know Yeah, >> it's okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh so here is the word for bed which backstory cigar reconstruct is because of this word in mangro kajang. >> Yeah. and like and and let's say I think these cases should be uh less problematic because these are borrowings from Chinese right so they got the C from somewhere and then either you have to explain that in Malang bro morphology the C is innovative or you have to say the Chinese had the C on it right >> how do we know it's not the other way around that we got it from maling bro >> do you think the Chinese like got the idea of sleeping in beds from the from the Malang Bro, >> there's like there's like 500 people who speak this >> live in the forest. We live in the forest. Oh, okay. >> By the name of >> Yeah. I mean, or >> I would say if you want to argue that way, there will be a certain part of the Chinese internet that will pay you some attention. Yeah. [laughter] >> So, so, so I'm just saying that methodologically it's just based on empirical observation. There's nothing in principle that prevents it going the other way. It's just highly unlikely. is is what I'm trying to get. >> So it's possible that some words with prefix indeed are from non-Chinese language into Chinese, but this would be the exception rather than a rule. I guess to be specially >> but I would also say like if or I may have to say this twice but but if >> Chinese borrowed words with prefixes then Chinese had prefixes, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So I win either way. Yeah. [laughter] uh you know unless and then what you could come back and say is no they borrowed the word kachang as yeah and then I think like yeah fine but then the the the no matter what we want to say about this we need to figure out more about maling bro right like uh uh what what is the historical phenology of maling bro and does it have any productive c prefix and all of this stuff isn't known because this language is not very well uh understood. Uh but let's uh well let's move on to uh so so I I tried to be exhausted here exhaustive here which is I think maybe the only time they use ma or the word bad. Yeah. >> Uh so here is the word the language satch and they use it for >> s. Yeah. Okay. >> Okay. I I don't know how to pronounce Vietnamese. Uh so here we have the word lamp and the word bed uh which are uh and in this language. Now you notice actually bed we have now more than one language where uh uh yeah but I still maybe uh the the maybe the proto Vietnamese gave the bed to China. Yeah. Uh it's possible. Yeah. Um and then lamp and then I would also say lamp and bed are technologies, right? So it's it's very hard where one thing that I think is important to to to have is a you know a historical consciousness you know historic bust design. Yeah. So the so remember there was a time when beds were new. There was a time when lamps were new. Yeah. When uh when there was a time when everything was new. Yeah. Nothing was there in the beginning. [laughter] >> Uh so [clears throat] uh okay now let's move on to pong. So in the language pong uh we have uh we have these two words uh mallet and uh which means meat or flesh. Uh and actually this is a nice one for me because a a as a Tibetanist I look around the world and I see inir in Burmese in Tibetan all of the words for meat are sha yeah or sa or something like that and then Chinese has this totally crazy word for meat >> uh oh that so I'm arguing that it's borrowed I guess from [laughter] >> for those who believe that meat cannot be borrowed because it's a basic word What is the word for meat in Japanese? [laughter] >> So they borrow the Chinese word and it's not felt as a Chinese boring anymore. Yeah. >> So >> well also I mean >> I was just looking up whether >> Yeah. There is but never heard of it. Yeah. >> Uh yeah. And I mean we have I think it's very easy for like you know in in in English both the word flesh and the word meat are inherited from from protogermanic but but all kinds of meat are French. Yeah. So so if you imagine you know beef becoming a generic word for meat then we would be borrowing our generic word for meat from French. And uh it's very normal to have your generic word like a specific word become a generic word. And I even feel like there are examples of this for food in English, but I'm not. >> Yeah. And you have muscle. That's a borrow too. >> Oh yeah. Muscle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Although you don't you would never really say like >> I eat muscle. Yeah. >> Yeah. All kinds of basic body part even as a >> Yeah. Sure. But this is not a so so there are two cases. So was that uh body parts that refer to part of the body that you you would not necessarily have as a specific word like body very often borrowed. All humans have a body but the word for body is massively bored across the world because they may have words for body parts but not for body and the internal body part that you can't see like vein is more something that people will so either butchers will know these words >> or doctors >> or doctors and so they will have tendency to be borrowed too you can see that right >> but you can borrow red because uh in many languages The word for head is B because it's the upper most place in the body. >> So there are many reasons we can have to borrow. >> That's funny because cuz you're you're saying it can be borrowed because it's a it's uh soy. >> A lofty. Yeah. Whereas actually you know often times it's it's a word for jar or something. >> But it goes in on the other direction. So once you you can borrow it. Yeah. Yeah. the so so phrases the the word for Yeah. Yeah. So >> I mean like so you you know this but cuff in German and Tet in French are both words for jar. >> Yeah. >> Uh as is show in >> toe. Yeah. To toe is also jar >> word for head is cognate with a cookie chain word for pot. >> Oh great. Yeah. Yeah. >> Perfect. >> Yeah. It's because everyone says that jar head. Yeah. So this is the slang entering the main language. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh but in in in so actually in Chinese this is a Baxter's argument. Why do you start to say toe? It's because it's very confusing to have a hand and head to be the same word. Yeah. Uh and and show is hand and head. Yeah. So as the word for hand and head became phologically sim similar, it was necessary to have a different word for either hand or head. Yeah. Uh and so they they took the word that had meant jar and change it to toe. Yeah. To mini head. Yeah. >> Actually that's a question also for the people from the V is already think about these two words because they are most middle Chinese. One is we reconstruct with the lateral the head. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And the hand we nasal. >> Yeah. >> No new. Yeah. So if you don't believe in these hypothesis, you are forced to reconstruct homophonist words for these two body parts. >> That's the question. You see, >> yeah. So I'll just repeat it for clarity. Uh in middle Chinese, the word for hand and head are homophonous. Yeah. Uh does the Wong Lee school reconstruct them as the same in old Chinese? I think that's question one. And question two is, does the Wongly school not think that's odd? Yeah. Because having the same word for head and hand would be inconvenient. Like uh like if you >> look at my [laughter] Yeah. I think I have a bug on my Yeah. >> Let's shake hands. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. [laughter] Okay. Uh, so, uh, now another language, Ken, uh, kapang. Oh, oops. Kapong. I shouldn't have changed that. That's me o overchanging things into my transcription. So, we have the word for chopsticks. Uh, and now here's a funny one because Baxter Cigar reconstructed with an unspecified prefix. Why wouldn't they reconstruct with a T prefix? They give this data. Mhm. >> So, this is this is one problem with their system is that there's a lot of like their own psychology built into it or or that they have like hidden reasons for things they don't say cuz presumably >> they, you know, presumably they considered reconstructing a T prefix here. >> Uh I would reconstruct a T prefix. Uh yeah, that's what I just uh said here that they do not take pre-initial T as evidence of T per se, but as evidence of an unpecified thing. Okay. Now, Rook, for some reason, we I guess have more data about Rook, even though it's also a language spoken by like a very small group of people who live in the forest. Uh so paper uh so we think it's in uh old Chinese seed so we think it's kong in uh Chinese they have this word kick for strength so maybe it's kak in uh in Chinese and then sunshine uh uh kang so maybe it's kang in in Chinese and then I can't read the last. >> Yeah, I've got >> I want to specify that you have cogn of this in in Vietnamese. >> In Vietnamese, you don't have these three syllables, but you have linian. >> Yeah, you have. Yeah. >> And you notice the word for paper. Well, that's something interesting because paper, we know when it was invented. We have a date for that. And it was in a high. And this word doesn't have an obvious in Chinese anyway. So, I'm not seeing here it comes from Vietnamese. The point is whatever the ethmology of paper it has this unexplained cur invented which means that in a dynasty there was still so what we're constructing here know so preoto Chinese yeah it's really Chinese the so in Vietnamese in modern Vietnamese this is the word for paper is yeah with a with a z initial but this z initial is what we expect when you have a three syable followed like it's written as GI. >> Yes. Gi. >> Uh yeah. And then I'll just say like if you have any doubts about there being like three syllables in Han Dynasty Chinese, just read the pan. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's full of them. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh okay. So, how about liver? So we have tak uh and yeah this is again they reconstructed >> I don't know why they don't do yeah >> well the idea is that you cannot have s as a precedable >> in in this language okay there are um there is evidence of um and s changes to t in uh in in >> oh in vic in vic languages >> so it's not a problem really >> it may be yeah I think that there may be evidence for it in uh in yeah tun script or something. >> Uh I will mention that R changes to N kind of uh probably before the Han dynasty in Chinese. So the the N final is not a problem in Rook. >> Um >> yeah and the the reason for borrowing a B body part like lever maybe linked to the the fact that it's a delicacy food. >> Oh see I was thinking it was because you use it to read the future but >> Okay. No. Yeah. Maybe you don't do that in China. >> I see it rather maybe as something that has to do withinary >> culinary culture. Yeah. >> Like actually I don't know some of the non-native speakers here, but if you go to a fancy restaurant in the Anglican world, the whole menu is in French. Yeah. >> So, uh it can quite >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Okay. So, then uh then how we have this near. Yeah. So to be near uh and this is a nice one because rook has I don't I can't say but they have the but they have the nasal prefix as well as the T prefix. So the T prefix we think comes from an S as we were just saying. Uh okay. Yeah they yeah it's always say they they point out that rook lacks pre initial S and then Gong has pointed out that S changes into T in Vietnamese. All right. Uh and then we have uh an M initial in Muk. So uh for instance in the word for fly they have this word malang uh which really beautifully matches morang in in old Chinese. Yeah you know this is a fly not to fly. Uh and then actually I'll just point out this is a doesn't quite work actually but the Tibetan has this word is as well as uh and the change of MR to BR is regular in Tibetan. again. Uh okay. So then Vietnamese preserves uh R and L but normally Vietnamese linian or spiritization is evidence of an urstwhile Chinese pre-initial. Yeah. Uh so loads of examples of this. So here are uh here are R and L. Yeah. So this is nice. Like why am I mentioning R and L as simplex initials at all? It's because we had this whole discussion about like is lu from L or R or what? So Vietnamese just has what we are reconstructing. Yeah. Like like today's Vietnamese. So like to to reject is ry and it's it's the same in Vietnamese. Uh rem is bamboo curtain and then it's rem in Vietnamese and so on. And then we have this one at the bottom. Uh, exuvia. [clears throat] I don't really know what like fluff sloughed off skin. Yeah. Is it? >> Yeah. Yeah. For so insects like uh like the cicadas when they grow they have to leave their former skin to be able to grow. >> Okay. Yeah. So so that is called lot in both old Chinese and in Vietnamese. >> Okay. And then uh then now I have the the examples of uh spiritization in in Vietnamese. So Vietnamese has some kind of fricative and we take that as evidence of a pre-initial in Chinese and we know from the other viatic languages that the the spiritization in Vietnamese is coming from lost pre initials. Right. So like where rrook would have you know or something then uh Vietnamese would have yeah so here are examples uh I just I'll just say the English to kind of force your eye to follow along the page. So uh to be near uh and that's a nice one cuz right you see that both you see the the relationship between the rook and the Vietnamese. Yeah. Uh and then we have uh to come together. We have to strive. Um okay. Now uh we have uh knife and this was so nice. Uh what's the word for knife in malang? >> Katau. Yeah. Uh you G mentioned that in this class a few days ago, I think. And then Albert uh happened to show up during during the coffee break. Yeah. who's the guy who wrote his dissertation about malang and we just asked him what's the word for knife in in malang he's like yeah >> uh so um so uh so actually I mean I don't know then we can probably reconstruct a k in yeah so we can we can reconstruct a k in old Chinese because m I guess they didn't know about this word mlling yeah um so then we can change this tao in Chinese to kau and mlling preserves uh katau And then Vietnamese has uh zho because the linen has happened when the k was lost. Okay. >> One thing I should add is that all these words in Vietnamese they may not be perceived as Chinese own words >> and they have they are Chinese so the literary sign of Vietnamese that is for for corresponding to each of these words that pronounce differently. Yeah. So for instance for this word you have thou in Vietnamese alongside zo. >> Yeah. So but only thou will be considered as real sign of Vietnamese. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean the way to understand is like all languages in this part of the world they they at some point probably in the song or the tong or something they have this huge uh increase in literacy and readings of Chinese characters. Right. But then there are some really old words that are not perceived of as being uh Chinese that uh yeah that are from Chinese. Yeah. And actually I don't know I was talking to somebody uh in this class about this yesterday uh where Japanese also has uh I you know I think probably um horse borrowed from Chinese probably ume plum is probably borrowed from Chinese >> uh and I think probably tora tiger is personally I think borrowed from Chinese. So um you know all these languages have many layers of Chinese and we're interested in the oldest layers. Yeah. Um, okay. So, so yeah. So, here's paper again. Yeah. So, uh you can see the again the rook has a K prefix with the uh the the the Vietnamese having the linen. Uh and then uh some more uh bandit. That's a nice one. Yeah. Kuck. Uh okay. Actually this the the the the vocabulary that belongs to this layer in itself is informative the nature of the relationship between the Chinese people and the protovetic people. >> Yeah. The protovietic people got wells and roof piles and bandits from the Chinese. Yeah. >> Uh >> you also in the same layer the word for lazy. [laughter] >> Yeah. So I do have this question. Maybe it's a little bit technical, but why does Vietnamese distinguish type A CT and type BCT but not type A and B for TS? That's seems weird to me. Yeah. >> Um, so with type A and type B in uh with a I guess with a T and u you you have a a change to an R right. >> Yeah. Whereas with the T, it remains in middle Chinese. It doesn't change in terms of uh uh the place of articulation. Just add a Y. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. So, it's it's correctly reflecting middle Chinese here >> in some way. Yes. Something intermediate. Yeah. >> Yeah. This is a this is but I'll say this is a thing that I noticed reading back's book that I wish they had commented about. >> Uh okay. And then uh here are some examples with s. Yeah. >> Yeah. So s becomes this should not uh yeah it's roticization. It's like in many languages >> just like in English. >> But but in English so in Germanic you don't have it in word initially I would say. Yeah. So here what's weird is that you only have it word initially. >> No but you don't really but it wasn't originally word initially. >> It wasn't. Yeah. It was uh because it was preceded by syllable that brought. Yes. >> Yeah. And this applies massively to native words anyway. >> Uh okay. And then uh we have V for something before P. So here are some uh examples. Uh actually this this first one's kind of interesting too, right? Because you say why would the Vietnamese borrow a word for tree trunk? Well, they don't use it to mean tree trunk. Yeah. They're using it in a metaphorical way. Just like just like in English, we borrowed chef from French. >> Uh but we don't use it to mean head. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> we we don't anymore. >> Yeah. You don't either. But uh >> but actually do you like because sometimes these things like when when when Ratzinger became pope uh I opened the and it had a picture of the cardinals all going like this and it said the cardinal like right there in the newspaper. >> Okay. >> So I don't know do you not use chef even if it's about cardinals? Well, you you can use a chef uh in a there is some some some kind of >> register where he can film in head. >> Yeah. >> Uh okay. Now we're done with uh Vietnamese. So we move on to mom. Uh so uh so uh yeah. So uh evident. So, is what we use primarily for nasal prefixes. Yeah. Um, so here's a word for tree. Uh, and so it's uh this is where I don't I don't think these are very beautiful looking reconstructions. Yeah. But I I I don't have anything other to say than that. Yeah. So, I'm not going to pronounce them. Yeah. Um, but uh anyhow, here's a word for a tree. Uh and uh back I think that the you know but I I mean like why why does it have a nasal final? Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. Um and then the word for pillar and the word for narrow and the word for straight. Okay. Yeah. And uh Chinese has ML where protoen has blah. Okay. That's not at all surprising. We get change like that in Tibetan and in Greek where you have the epathetic bee. Yeah. Uh so uh so for instance glutenous millet, what species of millet? >> I think this is um uh this is this is probably the uh type. Uh well anyhow it's it's it's uh and and this is an example actually where archaeology tells us that the Chinese had millet before the right >> maybe not >> maybe not okay uh okay anyhow uh and now how about krai evidence for uh pre-initials so uh I don't know if everyone knows kraai is the language family with Thai and Jang and the like yeah >> okay So uh lakia here's paper look they have k. So uh that also helps. So you see a lot of the same and and this is nice because these are the same words as in protovetic in a totally different language family. These are in krai right? >> Uh so then we have bandit uh and then needle. Yeah. And so so to better appreciate this form, I think it's necessary to specify that in native words, you have this sound change whereby a pre syllable eats up the following syllable. Yeah, this is a very regular sound change that only occur in Lia and not in the rest of the sub called it belong it belongs to. So if you compare Lia to neighboring languages, you you see a lot of these words. I mentioned I think the word for dog which is ma ma in Thai from ma in prototype and it's kama in proto camu and in most camu languages it ends up at na or or ma but or with a little stop in sweet but in in it's >> and so the c it's up the and the nasaliz in the for so here we have the same just not just in Yeah. So we know that actually from that that these borrowings must precede that sound. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And you likely it's so important because it's the only language that uh where the the main consonant was weakened and and eaten up by the prefix whereas in the other languages the prefix dropped. >> Yeah. >> Uh okay. And then how about protocra? Uh this word for pillar. >> Mhm. I I will say that it's probably because they're not cra specialists, but back are a little bit I would say um mercurial where they're like, "Oh, now I take protocra. Now I take protocra, now I take la in in in in a very haphazard way." Uh and I find that also a little bit irritating, but you know what can you do? Okay, now this is exciting. This is the exciting part. Lone words. Actually, we already had I need to add this uh this Malang uh example to this section, but loan words not used by Baxter Cigar. So, oh, now I've just gave this all away a few minutes ago, but Indo-Aryan loans into old Chinese. Well, I just told you all about that. I think horse arant is uh is a borrowing into Chinese. Yeah. And it allows us to specify that we had R before the main consonant. Yeah. And then of course with the horse comes the chariot. Yeah. So uh this is ch and uh it goes back to let's say [laughter] and uh >> so actually you could uh I think the story is that they think maybe it's they don't allow in the system. Uh yeah, they don't allow >> but uh so the way uh explained it to me and maybe it's not explained this way in the book is that they think it's from maybe Iranian >> the precable changes to and you get >> yeah they're but they're wrong it's not from Iranian it's from protoindoarian because >> there are some issues with the Iranian proposal as well because in protoindoarian the the stock was probably more of like a pal stop like a >> but then by the proto Iranian period most people think it had already become like a a or something like that like yeah so >> I don't know if if would have been borrowed as the empress maybe like with an s or something >> look what what I would say is like when the curtain goes up >> horses and chariots are there right we have chariots in Jagawin we have a chariot >> like preserved physically from the time of winging yeah so it's got to be from the same source as horse. Yeah, >> it could be from some other unknown extinct indoor road. >> Yeah, I I do find the the deal was a little bit disturbing like if you just have a K. So I think I kind of like doing it or at least an adjacent >> I would be much more happy myself to say that it has to be from Indaran and the problem is with the uvula. >> Yeah. like uh and and I am very happy to change it to a fricative if you want you know like I don't know uh we need to maybe have I don't know a whole dayong yes event with Indo-aranists and Chinese archaeologists and whatnot to really hammer this out. Yeah. >> So just some background on this reconstruction. Why would you need to make to to reconstruct here a a a villa or or villa? Because you this character has two readings and two. Yes. >> So mechanically this ch would uh could originate from >> Yeah. And the ch would originate from of Yeah. And this uh alteration uh uh is explained by supposedly cluster. >> Yeah, that cluster otherwise you have two unrelated uh onsets in the ceilings. >> But but why don't you have a but why couldn't you have it with a verer actually? >> I pardon >> why couldn't you have it with why couldn't it be rather than >> Okay, that's okay. Did you want >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. I think it's >> so this uh hinges on what we said last week. Yeah. So you remember you was uh like that. So we had uh uh Yeah. So here you have for you. Yeah. You have Yeah. Okay. Here you have R. So M R And here you have three possibilities. So here you have your or you and here the same and you but you remember in a poem that we studied we had also a few words with yeah so which would be yeah we had Franc this one. Yeah. Yeah. Which has two readings and and we saw that in the form from from we had this this reading reading. Yeah. Or this character. Now so we know that this can rhyme. Uh but I didn't explain why you had either Y or Y. Yeah. Okay. So in fact um this y in this context so which appears only in in front of um of acute uh initials so it doesn't occur in front of labials etc uh is reconstructed as a big r in middle which doesn't mean anything. So now the two readings of of of ch and ch would be ch and this would mechanically go back to here with a possible r in middle Chinese. This would mechanically go back to here big. And so here the idea is the big r is somehow a trace of r somewhere. Mhm. >> Okay. But not medial R as usually uh as you have here. So basically so you would have uh so the so so this means that there's a problem with this reconstruction and that's and we we have a VA and a dental so we need to do something with it. So here you have a CR or either crea or CL. Well, that would be type B. Yeah. And so you need to do something that may have an R and has uh something with both C and so you could argue that it was a that ended up as that or that you had. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what they do and they therefore I guess something that uh would would account for for for these two. Yeah. Yeah. So they are drops without yielding a true initial. Yeah. So yeah I don't know why they reconstruct us. >> Yeah. So that's so yeah. So so so let's just reconstruct a K instead of Q. Yeah, we can't we can't figure out why they want a U right now. >> Okay. How about old Chinese loans into tokarian? All right. Well, here's uh you know man uh one. Yeah. Like it means 10,000. >> Yeah. >> One. Yeah. Okay. So in tokarian the word for 10,000 is uh let's just go with taman. Yeah. >> So probably borrowed from Chinese. Yeah. It's it's not it doesn't look Indo-Uropean, >> but they borrowed it with a T on it. So uh >> Bob's your uncle. >> Yeah. >> Tummans. >> Toumen in Turk. Yeah. In Turk they also say Tmen probably also borrowed from Chinese. So also with a T prefix. So, and that's a nice place where, you know, sort of basically back cigar uh pay mostly attention to the southeast. And the reason why they pay mostly attention to the southeast is because polyblank and kind of earlier generations paid mostly attention to the northwest. >> Uh but now I think we're going back to the northwest the uh and so here's a case of uh we can uh put a t and then actually in their book they reconstruct capital c ms. So now we know the capital is a tongs. Yeah. And then uh yeah the that's what I just said to allows us to change uh you know capital C mongs into. Yeah. Okay. Now how about rice patty? Well the definitely the the tokarians did not introduce rizulture to the Chinese. Yeah. >> So the uh the the the the tokarian word for rice patty is clue. Well, they probably get the K from the Chinese word. Uh, and I haven't altered the reconstruction here because I wasn't quite sure how to, but >> okay, maybe I should say a few words here. >> Okay, >> it's also a place where I disagrees with Lon and Beex. They believe that the type A L had a vill quality and that was as therefore borrowed as clip. >> Oh, it was a sort of a dark L. >> Yeah, I don't think a dark L would end up as clip personally. world. No, I I I don't think so. Yeah, it seems to me, but there are a few other words like that that have a K. Uh, for instance, the verb for for peach is a cloud in in in >> uh you have exactly the same correspondence. >> So, what do you think? >> I think there was a K here. >> You think there was K? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, if it was just a dark out, we would probably expect it to be borrowed with just a lowered vowel. Well, and it is funny that you know in this case like back and cigar usually do not restrain themselves. Yeah. >> But in this case they're they do. Yeah. >> Uh okay. So the tokarian suggests Yeah. This is what I say that can be added to the whole Chinese. Yeah. Uh and then we also have this uh year end uh sacrifice uh which is uh you know I don't know it helps us say that yes it's an R in in Chinese just like the Vietnamese said yes the lu does come from R and not from L. >> Yeah. So here last month of the year in uh tokarian B is rap. Yeah. Okay. So, um, and then I also say maybe this puts the prefix into question. Maybe not. I don't know. But, okay. How about tokarian loans into old Chinese? So, now these won't be into the oldest Chinese. Of course not. But, uh, they will be in like maybe prehawn Chinese. Yeah. Uh so uh we have this one a kind of woolen fabric uh uh which and actually this is a fun one because in their book uh this is yeah this is funny. Yeah. In their book they write it like this. >> Yeah. [laughter] And and uh and Harpsy makes fun of them and says, "So the only thing you're sure about is the hyphen." [laughter] But uh but it turns out actually they were right about everything except the hyphen [laughter] because because [clears throat] allows us to to recognize that the s is not morphological. >> Yeah. It's part of the borrowing. Yeah. Uh so so [laughter] I think this is a yeah a funny outcome. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh and uh actually uh I I I could tell you all kinds of interesting things about the uh archaeology and cultural history of this word and this contact but I don't need to because Hannes Felner has given a whole lecture about tokarian Chinese uh contact on my YouTube channel. So you can watch it there. Yeah. Uh but I'll I'll just tell you it's uh it's not G-rated. It's, you know, for adults only. [laughter] >> What is the name of the talk on the YouTube channel? >> I don't know. Just just look for honest uh >> uh actually anything you find that honest has done on YouTube is worth watching. Yeah. >> Um yeah. So this I just mentioned he they had it as with all you know. Anyhow uh okay. And then uh the word for honey uh you know the the Chinese do not have what do you call this uh melaculture. Yeah. Uh before [clears throat] a certain period and they seem to get it from the cryptocarians. So they borrow it from and actually there's a whole literature about this where where you were wrong right? Yeah I didn't quite follow I quite like your arguments. >> So I still think there's a problem. So first of all, as you can see uh here, the protocurren looks less like old Chinese than Atestto, which is a bit weird because at this is too late obviously be a source of Chinese and >> so you would have to suppose that ma was brought as meat why not so the the main problem is that in l you have a word with the ML initial and that's why I propose that maybe This uh meat word uh reflected not the uh meita word but uh um no not the medu word >> medu word word but the me word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So another borrowing uh but so well the details are a bit complicated anyway >> but any people wrote an article saying Gom was wrong and Guom >> didn't respond >> changed his mind. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The middle Chinese resembles more the prototarian. Yes, exactly. >> No, in middle choice it's miz. >> Yeah, but in protocarian you have a polalized end. >> Yeah, >> I don't think that's a big deal. Yeah, >> but I'm just saying like I don't know what the dating of >> the first attestation of myth to my knowledge in literature is truth one of the truth poems and I think there are maybe a slightly older excavated text but it's tranquility. >> How did how how do the people who disagree with you explain the lia? >> They say it's a different word. >> Yeah, it's just not from Chinese or >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No, it's a different Chinese word maybe. Oh, >> also which was borrowed from me or something like that. >> Uh, no no no no from something else unrelated. >> Uh, okay. Let's uh move on. And this is always a fun one. Uh, this is uh asafetida is how we say this in English. And I find that a lot of people don't know what is. It is delicious. So uh please uh you know if you have never tried a vadita you should leave class and go right to an Indian grocery store restaurant and order king. Yeah h i n g. >> It's really extremely tasty. Yes. Um so uh anyhow and then this one's very interesting because the old Chinese if we just mechanically reconstruct the old Chinese we get something like you know I Yeah. And that's clearly not particularly related to the uh to the tokarian. But if you kind of move it forward a little bit into the kind of Han period, let's say, where the then it starts to look better. Yeah. Where the the the NQ would be just a ver nasal. Yeah. So then you get uh something like Well, it's actually almost perfect on. Yeah. Because also the the rounded vowel hypothesis. Maybe I should actually just try and write my effort at a Han uh version, a kind of late Han version. You the the the the gaboo would already have been a and the uh Yeah. And then we would get a nasal uh and then the sorry the would become we uh and then the s was maybe still round. >> Yes. So uh this would be a kind of Han period reconstruction looks very similar to the to the tokarian right uh yeah and then I I point that out the tokarian suggests that at the time of tokarian Chinese contract this kind of a uh dissimilation of rounded vowels uh before uh coronal finals had already taken place. How are we doing on time? >> 13 minutes. Okay. uh and this also shows that the boo had changed to ah from I >> before the tokarian contact. So some interesting stuff we can conclude. Uh and then yeah does it confirm this? Yeah a little bit. Yeah because they have a K in there right they it's not just an it's yeah >> so uh >> so that's nice. How about some other loans? Yeah, I already mentioned these as uh examples arguing in favor of the uvular from uh from Sasha Voven. Uh yeah, and it maybe allows us to delete the R from the second word. >> Uh and then here's uh tartan. Uh and uh maybe it allows us to delete uh the the R from the second word. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. And that's it for uh for my for my loan words. So uh so now I'm not sure what to do because I could jump into the other presentation, but it's way more than we'll be able to get through in 10 minutes. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um I don't know. Any questions about the lone words? >> No, you have better questions. >> Back to the wine and >> Yeah. I think the original meaning of the character one means a war. >> Yeah. >> So so >> yeah I I that this is Yeah. You go ahead. Yeah. >> Okay. I'm not so so indeed. So the phonetic element represents a kind of scorpion. >> Scorpion. Yeah. Yeah. Scorpion. And you have indeed in the same series a t uh yeah so you have a words that refer to bugs >> I think >> what can be reconstruct to something like to to to mats or something >> yeah there there's um so so there are two questions here I think that if it's a borrow so whatever uh the relationship ship between bugs and and so maybe it's a multitude of uh the way you could relate the two meanings is a multitude of insects and being used as a metaphor for a uncountable number something like that you if we are charitable with this idea yeah why not >> well I had just assumed it was like this is you think about in the very ancient times you want to uh represent an abstract concept like myriad Mhm. >> And your word happens to be tongs. Then you say, well, myriad is a very hard thing to draw a picture of. So why don't I just use the symbol that I already have for scorpion, which is which is kind of more or less similar in pronunciation. >> That's that's how I would explain it. And then and then you do have a problem of like well scorpion has a t and uh and myriad has an n and this is not uh the kind of thing we like to have in our future series where actually then I'm tempted to go in two directions. One is keys do pretty frequently invade n series and this is actually one of the phenomena that that I find is is interesting because it's obvious like like you know you just look at a bunch of session series you see it I have never seen anyone write about it anywhere >> and I assume it's because nobody has an idea of how to explain it. So um so let's say one one thing I could say is he's coming into n series happens and I have no idea why but this is uh I have reduced it to a known problem. Yeah. The other way I can just say is this character is so old that they didn't have very many options uh of of how to write tongs yet. Yeah. So they could be looser than the strict sha hypothesis. >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is the child world. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um yeah. So yeah maybe so you can so anyway even if we uh concede that maybe the word for myriad was derived from uh this word for for bugs uh as a metaphor something of a lot of creepers crawling in the same area and they can't count them because they're so numerous. You you could it doesn't matter for the for the tokarian ethmology. Oh yeah, >> because by the time it's borrowed into tokarian this whatever the word had in Chinese is is >> irrelevant >> irrelevant and the only thing that's relevant is the phonetic form of the word. >> Yeah, >> I don't understand why there's the second syllable inarian. This is probably like a Tokarian internal problem, but the the way and the are difficult to explain. If the protoform is >> Oh, you Oh, sorry. You're talking about a different word. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> Uh, does it have anything to do with that superscript s? I I don't know. >> Ask Connor. Look, I just told you there's a whole YouTube video about this. >> Um, >> I don't know anything about Yeah. What made me need white to not anything else? Because of course you cannot be indoor Iranian because it's you already have met to basically. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's all right. But then why not something proto uh Iranian how would I because in in India and long wars they all are from northwest. So the lack of the final bubble is not a problem because that wasn't in >> So here's my effort at it is is is like when did this is where the kind of material culture matters. If the Chinese got honey with the horse and the chariot then fine but they didn't they they got it much much later. >> Okay. So we have archicidence. >> Uh well no literary evidence it's just when is honey first attested in Chinese? >> It's uh it's Han dynasty. And so there will be option. >> No, it's late. >> Well, you said truths truth mostly Hong dynasty, isn't it? >> Well, okay. Okay. I don't know. Yeah. >> What? Sorry. What's this? >> I I I would say still early third century BC. >> Yeah. some of so I'll just say I'm not a philologist as I said but I uh embarrassed myself once >> uh because I had breakfast in a hotel in Shanghai with the expert on the chutza in the >> in the west at least. Yeah. >> And I said like why don't people use the chutz more in uh old Chinese reconstruction because it's quite old right and he said they don't use it because it's from the Han dynasty. Everyone knows that. Yeah. So >> school believes that. >> Okay. Okay. Well, I'm not a a chologist. Uh but uh I met this guy and he thought it was a the Germans was you know it's a totally like come on all the all the teenagers know that is from the dynasty. So people say >> yes people from the western highly critic a lot of the materials that you you use for Asian Chinese and this example much later it's >> I mean let's say this gets intoological things and and I'm happy to hear that some people think that chutza is older because because the only chutsu expert I happen to have had breakfast with in Shanghai said said it Honda dynasty. So I guess I need to >> He was a western person. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So I guess I need to eat at more hotels in Shanghai. Yeah. [laughter] [clears throat] >> This is completely theoretical. How would that feeling something from being borrowed in? >> No idea. >> M or in two syllables because in time was from Indic. >> Yeah. >> Just make m because they don't care about the final vowel. >> Yeah. It's because the final vowel is gone in Gandari. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> What about um >> Well, I think what doesn't work is the vowel. >> No, no, ignore that. I'm just curious how how about how would I borrow >> mu >> mu babic babic words. >> Uh my my gut tells me as something like mu. Yeah. Or mu. Yeah. Because the u isn't dropped in gandari. Right. But so you have something like that with later. >> Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. >> Yeah. It's not >> where does futu come from? >> But it's from Buddha. >> Yeah. But that's not later then. >> No no no it's not ancient >> because one of the earliest Buddhist loans. >> It's it's it's ancient enough uh that the the a is transcribed as >> Yeah. So this is >> it's western han. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. This is you you have corresponding to R. You see because this is this one now. Yeah. Yeah. This is R. Yeah. >> So Fuh is from Bu >> which is from B. >> Yeah. So but that's not the period you referring to. You were referring to a much earlier period. >> Yeah. Yeah. But that's the oldest thing we have of dilabus from Sanskrit. >> From Sanskrit. Yeah. Yeah. >> Or some Hindi language. >> Well, you and we've talked all about there's there's one there's one document in the Taiisho tripa which is from the western h which we can tell from the hell names, right? >> Yeah. That's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's >> so >> I I I agree that the most economic conclusion is to say it's the legislation even maybe other >> uh and you will be publishing about it soon >> when gives me the green light. >> Oh for god's sake. So now you have to wait another 20 years >> going to send emails. I sent him one before Christmas and he was like, "Yeah, then I did this and that, you know." >> Okay. Yeah. Um I don't know. Now we're probably out of time. Or maybe >> Yeah. But if if I may maybe some administrative things. So about the assignments. Who wants to do an assignment? >> Raise your hands. Hi. And yes. One, two, three, four. Okay. Four. Okay. My hand is raised too. >> Okay. May maybe you should uh talk to us in the in in in the I think the lunch isn't doesn't work. So the coffee break. >> Yes. >> In the afternoon. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and uh so yeah >> and then and then we will and then and then after talking to us then write an email to confirm your understanding of the talking to. Yeah. >> Yeah. And uh so the idea would be to write a how many pages paper? Uh >> we always say 5,000 words. I don't know how many that's 10 page paper. Something like that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Like in a month. >> Yeah. I mean if you write a page a day, you finish in 10 days. >> Okay. [laughter] >> 5,000 words in a month is is not that much. >> It's not that much. >> But like like >> you can ask Chaki to write mostly. But that assumes it's like the only thing I I have to do. >> But well, my advice is is then find a way that you can do this, >> you know, at at the same time as something else you have to do. Yeah. >> Like maybe you have to walk your dog. You can walk your dog and write your paper at the same time. Yeah. [laughter] >> Give your dog a nice ultra. >> I mean, actually, the truth is I do this by listening to audiobooks myself. Yeah. >> Yeah. Then I can walk the dog and do the dishes and read as well. Yeah. >> Do you have a dog? >> No, I don't have a dog. But but I but I do have I do have dirty dishes. Yeah. >> As most get a dishwasher. >> That might overtake my severe anxieties. Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. >> I can't afford to hire someone to do my dishes for me. [laughter] >> Yeah. I I was just making a joke about the ambiguity in the word dishwasher. Yeah. Actually, I actually have a a a dishwashing machine, but I'm only one person, so it's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Doesn't make sense. Okay. And and on that uh extremely important uh observation, we'll end. Yeah. of the day. >> Yeah. Uh so Guom in his in his youth actually used to say uh that uh linguistics is the only branch of linguistics that has been vindicated by uh by prediction you know in the same way that like what say the capernac model of the universe you say I predict this or or like Einstein's theory I predict what a photograph of a of a of a solar eclipse will look like and then you take the solar eclipse >> chsian impacts predicts a lot of stuff But that's it's separate discussion. >> So I don't actually so this is something that we talked about over lunch uh a few days ago. I don't actually like the and this is probably my own you know uh like epistemological naive but like in the in the case of mianing Greek you know we predict labioveers and we dig something up and it has labiovea so it's a very straightforward >> sort of vindication >> whereas uh in in in syntax you predict something and then you like look at a currently living language that exhibits it so it's very hard for me to know that somehow how it's not secretly circular, you know. >> Okay. >> Because because there isn't a there isn't the clarity of this inscription has been underground and no one has seen it ever before, right? >> Okay. Okay. Okay. >> It's like maybe >> Yeah. But >> like doing field work, right? you go like like like syntacticians who now do a lot of fields a lot of work like they can successfully predict like what what types of sentence structures this particular corpus will contain >> will probably but then you need to find a way of telling a cute story like we do for Lindels >> or uh or but but anyway about Laval right like that that that was where >> uh well so I mean I agree with everything that Josiah said but what I'll say just about Laval personally is he a phase where he was worried that his uh >> his work contradicted the neoarian hypothesis and wrote a couple articles about that. Yeah. >> But then like 10 15 years later he actually felt like his work was totally compatible with the neogarian hypothesis and he also wrote essays about that. So I would just encourage you if you're interested in this question just read lab's own work. >> Yeah. because because he also published a book with uh Beijing University Press in 1997 when he did like some sort of dialogue with a Chinese guy I think William Blam in Hong Kong and that dialogue was recorded and then turned into a book and that book is now like extensively quoted in China as some sort of like >> undermining of the neo. Oh, well, I would look at he his basically a bunch of his work was collected, I think, in the early 2000s as sort of, >> you know, the the the Omnia opera of of Lab and then he also did a you know, of of it. So, >> I would look there. Yeah. >> But but but you were never personally bothered by reading what he has to say. >> No, but but look, I think I actually first >> Can I interrupt for a sec? I just want to again say thank you and goodbye. >> Yeah. >> And have a good trip back and >> thank you very much. >> Enjoyed it. >> Yeah, it was great. And I uh Yeah, I'm very happy that you're running this Chinese section. And uh yeah, and thank you also for making such a nice dinner and inviting us all over. Very nice. Our >> pleasure. Okay, so I go to the old sorry interrupting. No problem. No, no worries. Yeah. Uh yeah, Labov. So I read Labov's work saying that he agreed with the neoarian hypothesis before I read the stuff where he was questioning it >> in my like so in terms of >> so it's idiosyncratic to your own circumstance. >> Well yeah so in his biography he had a question of a period of like 10 years where he questioned it >> and then he reconciled himself to it. Yeah. But then I read the later work first. >> So it was never a question for me because by the time I read the stuff >> that where he was questioning the New York GM hypothesis, I already knew how he was going to >> change his mind. >> I see. >> Change his mind. Yeah. >> Yeah. So you directly jump to the construction. It's like just like the uneven and >> combined development. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, it's true. >> Well, actually this is >> you didn't experience the whole intellectual history to the most the latest one. >> But I mean this sort of happened to me also with the let's say uh Chskian stuff in general where like I read a lot of American descriptivism you know from the mid 1950s. >> Yeah. >> And I loved it and I had this vague awareness that uh you know the Chsky people didn't like it somehow. >> Of course. uh and then I read uh corpus linguistics and and and sort of computational linguistics stuff where for instance they actually I'll just tell uh about this famous sentence uh what beautiful no um >> colorless green ideas leave furiously. Yeah. Okay. So um so uh actually so my intuition when I read it was that it does mean something and it means something like um boring jun hypothesis refuse to stay put. Yeah. [laughter] And and I thought it's a great sentence to describe generative syntax. Yeah. [laughter] >> And uh Uh and then it it turns out actually that uh and it's always nice I think when you when you realize you haven't thought of something right. So it turns out that no less a man than Roman Yakobson also as soon as he saw the sentence thought that's what it meant. And he Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> And and he wrote a little article where he he he he gave parallels of each combination of two words like colorless green green ideas ideas sleep puriously where he he found attestations of them all in Russian poetry. Yeah. Uh which is also a very you know Roman Yakabson thing to do. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I sort of think that you can you can pretty easily conceive of like a more nonsensical sentence than that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. It's not like the best. >> I mean but but but but the the the point being made still sort of stands which is a grammatical a grammatical sentence that is full of crazy word combinations invites you to assign a meaning to it whereas an ungrammatical sentence doesn't. Right. Um but actually I also read the textbook on computational linguistics where they just they just calculated the probability of it. Yeah. And of course this is the way probabilities work. You know whatever other sense he had like uh frog the in tomato philosophized or something. Yeah. That one uh that sentence you turn No, I turn off mine. No, you turn on you. Yeah. Um, so that sentence of course has a non-zero probability because everything has a non-zero probability in statistics, right? Um, but colorless green ideas curiously has a much much higher probability. So so so I think that the like one one difference between >> some of us some of us and others of us is is I don't think anything in reality is categorical, right? Like >> I disagree. I mean >> I think the the phological uh distinction between voice or voicing for instance it's categorical >> phology >> oh yeah but but phenology is not is not reality in the sense I'm talking about reality >> okay maybe I I got wrong what you meant >> but like because phenology is already a I don't want to sound like an idealist but it's like a methodological abstraction okay >> right >> but you you can perception tests where you you slightly change the vote frame. We're talking about VT in this course and you make them here to the speakers of their languages and they will have a S code. Yeah. And there's a threshold when you reach it you hear the other the other the other sound fact the fact that it's a test curve already shows it's not categorical per >> exactly >> it's a continuous >> no no and and and the the thing is like we would say in mathematics that it's smooth right yeah or an S-curve is smooth in any case right >> okay >> but that has a diff that like >> is there derivable yeah Yeah. Yeah. It's derivable. Yeah. But uh but you know, let's say some things can be more uh >> so you would you would for for something categorical you would like to have a jump that is >> Yeah. It go >> Okay. You don't have that in the mix. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's >> syntax you do. You have it all. >> No. In syntax you do >> like exp hippotasi in the same way you do in in phenology but it's just it's it's an abstraction >> that's that's methodologically fruitful. Yeah. >> But it's not a description of reality in the first instance. Now, >> if you like you could argue, and I'm happy with that, to say there that um >> uh this is Robert Brandon's uh uh uh uh example is always copper. If I say like the coin in my pocket is copper, I'm also saying that it melts at like I forget the number, but 1,1° >> centigrade, right? >> Uhhuh. Whether or not I know that it's a claim I'm making because it's in the meaning of the word copper, right? And it's not in the meaning of the word copper as a socio- linguistic convention about English. It's built into the nature of reality, right? So that that uh that reality has uh kind of relations of non-compatibility and material implication. Yes. Yeah. So I'm okay with saying at a certain there's a certain level of abstraction that's in the world where there are categorical uh distinctions but but that's a kind of uh that's a level deeper than kind of reality in the first instance is what I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and I think that the uh I think that the Chstines have a lot of trouble uh or they set up a dualism between like performance and what is it called and competence, right? So they set up a dualism between them where where like if you if you have a if you have a sufficiently stark dualism, you're you then there's no relationship between the two extremes. Yeah. You can't explain one from the other. Yeah. And I think that's a problem with uh Chsky in linguistics. But the other one is that they give them two onlogical statuses, right? So one is ideal and one is real, which means they believe in fairies. Yeah. >> They believe in Plato. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh fine. Whereas what you actually need is like a a you know in in in when things are working then the the what Hegel would call the griff the concept of copper is in reality is reflected in the mind. Yeah. and and the abstraction which is arrived at uh in terms of epistemologically through through methodological abstraction uh you know predicts the the surface level of phenomena but the surface level is never going to be cable. Yeah. Anyhow that's my sure sense. Yeah.