OEG Voices 099: Adéṣínà Ayẹni

Before now, before this current world that we are now, you know, the digital landscape, you know, the fast information space that we are now, the world has always been oral. You know, before the printing press was, the world has always been oral. No one was writing anything. Um, those that wrote something did it in form of pistos. you know the likes of um NCBD in Eboland in Nigeria the likes of you know conifform they are all like pictorial formats. So before printing press those are some of the means that information was being shared but a vast majority of the world share information in oral form. The problem um is that these people are dying. People will keep this knowledge because once you keep knowledge mind is stored in your mind, you know it's stored there. It's only when you share it when you speak that you tend to pass on the message. Welcome to O Global Voices. I'm your host and podcast editor Alan Lavine from Open Education Global. I'm very pleased to share with you this conversation with Adisha Ayeni from Lagos, Nigeria, who was a 2025 open education award for excellence winner as a leader. This is a fascinating conversation. We recorded June 15th [music] and it's getting ready to be published. Today is actually the closing day for the 2026 nomination. So, it's good time to get this conversation out there so you can hear what happens when someone emerges as a winner of this process. Of course, everybody wins, but I think you'll be fascinated to learn more about Adisha. He's been doing work as an open educator for a long time. He just didn't actually call it that. But you'll find out in his story, and you'll learn so much more about his interest, about the languages, culture, and folklore of Nigeria. Here we are finally after we've gotten to know each other for a long time. really happy to be talking to you today. First, I I want you to introduce yourself to our podcast audience. Let us know who you are, where you are, but because they're listening audio, if you can describe the setting, the room that you're in right now. All right. Thanks, Albert. Uh my name is Adishinoi, but I'm also known by the sodony, which literally means um the Euroba person. I am a Nigerian presently speaking from from home um inside my mini studio, my house studio where I spend most of the day producing audio visual creations or doing something else. So when I'm not out there, I'm always in this room creating something. Thank you. I'm very envious that you have a studio. Uh I I have a See, I'm already going off track. This will happen. I have a room in my house that I call the music room and I have my my u my old LP music and I've got a guitar and an old piano and I never use it. So, I'm envious and respect that you get to use um your your music rooms. I'm going to ask you where were you born and um uh where did you spend your childhood years and what kind of um student were you in school? Like what did you think of school as a kid? Yeah. So um first thing I was born in Lagos state, Nigeria. Um before the colonial masters came into Nigeria. Lagos was known as Echo. So which is what most of us the indigen still call it today. But if we try to um call it what the colonial masters call it, we call it Lagos state which is from Lagos de Kuramo is actually a Portuguese word. when they came to Lagos which was a co they saw that the landscape the the lagoon was similar to what they have in Portugal so they called it a similar name Lagos de Kuramo and there's also in Lagos in um Portugal according to history so I'm from Lagos Nigeria and my childhood was also spent in Lagos I'm a bonafide Lagosian as we say it that's someone who was born and b in Lagos Um I was a creative student and it started from elementary school. I usually participate in school drama. Um I was the artist of the school. I draw, I paint. And in secondary school, I was always on standby, you know, to draw diagrams on on the board. Whenever there's agricultural subjects, biology or any other science subjects, I'm always, you know, at the bacon of teachers. They just call me all around the place. Oh, go call addition to come and draw this and that. So, I'm very creative by say uh for me school is a place to develop what is inbuilt. A lot of people go to school to to learn new ideas or new knowledge. But for someone like me, I would say school is a place for you to develop whatever you have in you. You know, what is inherent in you? School is just somewhere to to make it um extraordinary, you know, to develop that thing that you have in you. It helps an individual understand how to think in different ways. You know, in philosophy class, there's a way you think like a philosopher. In sociology class, there's a way you think like a sociologist, you know, and so on and so forth. So, my best subjects are subjects that allow me to apply my creativity. Yes. So that is something I can tell you about my childhood and about school generally. >> Great. And uh did you always have an an interest in language? Where did the uh curiosity interest to become a linguist come from? >> Yes. So I will take you back again to my childhood cuz um the culture has always been in me. I loved the culture from my young age. So back then when we go on a long vacation holiday as we call it in Nigeria, it falls within I think July and we resume in August. It's like almost a month for him to stay back home. So my mother do take us to to the village where my grandmother and my grandfather live. Whenever it's the long vacation holiday, I'm always, you know, excited to go because why? I'll see things that I do not see in the city that not seeing in the urban area. I'll do things that I do not do in the city like go to farm see how crops are being cultivated how palm wine is a kind of wine in Africa is being tapped on the palm tree how ethano is being made you know a lot of things how palm oil is made I see everything firsthand so the zeal and the the the passion to get more involved started at that age however because I wasn't privileged to go to to a university a lot of people would be surprised but I went to a poly technic you know um had my certificate poly technic education as a mass communicator so when we were in school we did history we did um philosophy we did psychology and this subject actually opened my mind to wow our culture our language is powerful then I started doing research you know I started going to more festivals talking to elderly people, you know, to collect knowledge. I started reading novels written in Euroba language and voila, before you know it, I started creating content in Euroba language. I was part of the people who started putting out content solely in Euroba language, the digital space in Nigeria. A lot of people put content and digital spaces in English. But I was like, why can't we just have everything written in our language? So I started doing that and that was how I got deep deep deep deep into it and yes is history history happening and um for those like especially me who really aren't too familiar with the range of language in Nigeria can can you give us a large picture view of you mentioned Aruba is is that is that the most common language and I imagine there are so many languages that are spoken and what it's like to live in a a culture where there are so many languages spoken. >> I asked like five questions. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's fine. So, yes, um Nigeria is um a linguistically diverse landscape. Um I think we have over 500 languages. Um Ausa, I are the most widely spoken indigenous languages known as languages in Nigeria. So, this three languages also serve as major regional and cultural anchors. the other languages have their roots in the three major Nigerian languages. there's a portf of um what's it about the mixture you know of the other minority languages with this three major Nigerian languages that I've mentioned earlier Abu and Euroba um aside this minority languages English language inherited from colonial rule you know function as um the official national language although English is the main language used in in Nigeria for business for government education formal communication But some state governments for instance a states which is Lagos state which I said was a before the colonial um cion before the colonial masters came to our place it was known as a cole. So I think on Thursdays in the sittings in the in the house of representative they they speak Euroba language because Euroba is dominant language in Lagos. So, but English is still dominant. All over the place, all over Nigeria, people speak English. However, rural inhabitants tend to use ethnic languages more than English because for you to be able to speak English, you have to go to school. And most of some of the people, don't let me say most. I can say most because not everyone in the rural community are interested in going to school because they see school as something that you go there, you just spend money. And with the situation in Nigeria now, people go to school and there's no employment, you know, so they don't see school in the rural community that they should send their children to any longer. But when the Colin Masters were in Nigeria, they were like, "Oh, you have to go to school." So a lot of people went to school those days. But now as a result of the situation, unemployment rates, poverty, people are like, "Even if you go to school, will you get a job when you are done? Why not just start a business?" So um back to the languages. So um in urban cities like I said urban areas English is dominant and we have a lot of code switching because Nigeria is a multilingual um terrain. So code switching um is common and there's something which we call a bastardized English in Nigeria called Nigerian pigeon English. Um it is used alongside English alongside the normal the standard English. So if you don't understand English, at least you should be able to speak um the Nigerian pigeon English, which is a form of localized English in Nigeria. Um but that's also gone into mainstream. >> Oh, can you give me an example of what Nigerian pigeon English sounds like? >> Okay. For instance, if I want to say how are you, I will say how you do. >> How you? >> If I want to say um I want to drink water, I can say I want drink water. You understand? If I want to say um can you bring that table to me I will say you fit bring that table come my side. So it's a form of bastardized English. You need to strain your ears to be able to understand what we are saying and sometimes you may not even understand because some of the some of the the words used in in pigeon are invented by Nigerians. However, some are um like um a known word from English and the good thing about Nigerian pigeon English is that it is now being included in the mainstream English dictionaries just last month or last two months. Oxford English included over 20 Nigerian pigeon English into the English vocabulary. So that that will tell you how fast the world is catching along with Nigerian pigeon English. And now they are creating content in pigeon English. People are learning how to speak English. It's just as the Jamaican speak um was it called Pua how they speak. Exactly. Jamaican language is >> kind of similar but different. >> So these are some of the differences you know uniqueness of languages in Nigeria. However, there's still a challenge to the sustainability of minority languages in Nigeria because they face declining usage due to urbanization, the dominance of major languages um like English and even the educational policy in Nigeria is not helping things. Last year the minister of education scrapped a longtime agitation by academia by um cultural heritage promoters to haveation in Nigeria in indigenous languages. People have been fighting for that um bill to be passed and finally it was passed last year but unfortunately the minister of education said um we can't do anything with that now. We have to push it aside. education should only be solely in the English language. >> Uh it strikes me out the language is alive that it's evolving with the you know the pigeon language but at the same time you can be concerned about the loss of of traditional language. Um and then just the infusion of of what the world brings you uh you know through technology is good and bad. I want to ask because it's always been something I've been curious about especially for someone who speaks so many languages. Do you think in a language internally? Um do we think in languages or is there like some internal brain thinking that it's not a language? Language is um like I said earlier consist of the world view of a people you know talking about cosmology talking about medicine talking about science it is holistic. So when someone is um brought to this life, the mother gives birth to a child, the child automatically absorbs the language of the mother, which is why we have the mother tongue. So no matter how the child um develop memory, it is going to think like the question, he or she's going to think in the language of the mother, which is the mother tongue. Which is why it has been said that children or popios that have taught from their inut language tend to excel better than those that are taught in the second language or other language. Research was also conducted in Nigeria in 1964 if I'm not wrong or yes thereabouts by professor University of Ephair. Um they did a controlled experiment. They selected students um taught them pedagogy in Euroba language. There was also another set of people that were taught um in English. At the end of the experiment, those that were taught in the Euroba language came up with flying colors. So yes, um knowledge or thinking is in the indigenous language. So if you need to express or say something, communication needs to come about after you have processed what you need to say in your own language before you communicate or when you are speaking with someone, you would break down what the person is telling you in your own language for you to be able to digest and understand it. We're very interesting entities that can that can do this. You're doing it right now. You're you're having this conversation with me in English. Um but as a linguist and a professional translator, how do you see that translation and localization of language is helpful in open education especially in Nigeria? >> H with the issue of translation, people tend to see translation as um a second pain, you know, like a second hand or something of a second thought. Let's go back to the world religions. When I mean world religions, I mean cryentian Islam, Abrahamic religions as we call them. Um the first Bible according to history was not written in English. We had so many types of Bible before ones that we have now. And history has it that Greek and Hebrew were the first set of Bible. So if those documents like I call them the historical documents but some people not agree with me when I call them historical documents. They tend to call it religious document but I tend to say it is historical documents but it's talking about history. If those historical documents were not translated although sometimes there's something called lost in translation which happens when you try to translate from one language into another. Some of the meanings are lost in translation although that happens but that shouldn't be a reason for us to say that translation is not needed. So some people say oh translation is something to be the second thought but as someone who has been a translator who is a professional interpreter translation is needed in Nigeria where we have multiple languages in the classroom which is why the scrapped Nigerian policy for education is something that I'm still yet to wake up from the dream it's still like a dream research has shown that teaching in indigenous language is the best you know people would get the knowledge the information fast and easy than in another language but our government is saying no we don't want to have anything to do with continuous languages for education we should continue with English so in a landscape like Nigeria education no matter the type should be available in multiple languages not just one language or few languages and like I said earlier the world is diverse and multilingual multilingualism is is nature we are in a multilingual um why then should we um see one language should dominate or it dominance on the other in the education in particular. So translation and localization have a major role to play in reducing the barriers of jargon and terminologies from one language to another. It gives soft learning. So when a pop in class is being thought some part of the body you know for instance and the pop might ask what is that? Can you explain further? It would be more interesting and you know the student incuncate the knowledge more if it has been broken down in his in his or indigenous language. So terminology breakdown, jags breakdown that is what transition is for especially for a country like Nigeria. Transition in open education um supports knowledge sharing. It um makes the mother language or the mother tongue perform um better made student perform better than those taught in the second language. Like I mentioned earlier, um it is the work of translators to bridge language barriers and open education is multilingual multilingual context like Nigeria is the panacea to um quality education um ensuring inclusive equitable education and lifelong learning. So translation is something that is really necessary in Nigeria >> and what we're talking about with the importance of of the mother tongue. I'm thinking about um the project from India storyw weaver and African story book where the the focus is having children learn to read in their um mother tongue. Is there >> movement and interest of that approach in Nigeria and the the work that you do of um making sure that that when kids are learning to read, they can learn to read stories um in their mother language. >> Yeah, I have participated in some projects in the past and there's a website I forgot his name of the website. So what we did I contributed to the website by translating stories in other culture to Euroba language. >> The purpose of that project um is to ensure that the knowledge of other culture is available in other culture that's in other language because language is culture and I also contributed some of our own stories that was also translated by other people. Is it pangia? I can't remember the name of the project. So yes, I've worked on project like that and one of the recent project that I did last year uh which was sponsored by the Art Council of England was not about reading in particular. It was about um oral literature whereby I incorporated puppetry into stage art, music, you know, and um and um yeah, stage art and music for children. So the children are the one manipulating the puppets. They are the ones singing. They joining me in the story narration because breathing is one way of um taking in information. However, singing and music is a perfect way that makes knowledge sticks in the mind. M >> I remember back then when I was in primary school I can never forget till now I still remember the song when the teacher was trying to tell us teach us what is called um sto matter the dots on leaves on plants. Yes. So he was trying to explain and he was like okay which way is better for me to um transfer this knowledge to my students. So what what he did was to sing in Euroba language and I still remember the song today. I said he sang it this way. So it became music you know anytime anywhere you remember those are some of the things that I'm also trying further on although funding is one critical issue if there's no grant from somewhere I use my savings to push most of these things so yes reading is one one of the ways you for people to understand the language but also some other medium of passing on the knowledge. Traditional means like oral literature storytelling is something that is also um needed for us to preserve and um make the language sustainable. >> Yes. I want to ask too because you're a folklorist. How do you think oral literature is important in today's knowledge world especially with the impact of all the content and information that people receive um through you know the internet and and whatnot but how important is is that that oral language tradition? >> Yeah. So um before now before this current world that we are now you know the digital landscape you know the fast information space that we are now the world has always been oral you know before the printing press was the world has always been oral no one was writing anything um those that wrote something did it in form of pistoraphs you know the likes of um incda in eoland in Nigeria the likes of hoglyphics you know conifform they are all like pictorial formats so before printed press those are some of the means that information was being shared but a vast majority of the world share information in oral form the problem um is that these people are dying people who keep this knowledge because once you keep knowledge mind is stored in your mind you know it's stored there it's only when you share it when you speak that you tend to pass on the message um just last month I lost one of my library. I call her out my library which is my grandmom. I was narrating how I used to go to the village when I was a boy you know and she used to tell us so many stories show us so many things now she's no mom that library is closed forever so people like that you know who have this knowledge in them they don't know how to read and write you know they illiterates they are dying day by day and this knowledge is being lost so the responsibility is on people like us who are folklorist to keep and archive with these um historical narratives, this ancient wisdom. So oral literature is enriched um with wisdom that is applicable today. When you tell some people about historical event or practice that are ancient, they tell you that's ancient is not valuable for this common era which is pure fallacy because there's nothing new. Everything that has been created or that is being created now is a portfol of this existed before the computer was developed after looking at how the brain functions. The aircraft was developed after seeing how birds how birds take their flight when they fly, you know. So there's nothing new. You're just looking at something that has been in existence and create you know something out of it. So um this medium were once the medium you know used to um inculcate knowledge in young people um you sit around old people there's something called tales by moonlight I don't know if that still exists in Nigeria but when I was growing up in the evening young people go to an elderly person in the community when there's moon in the sky under a tree they sit around the old man they narrate stories of ancient time of past times is um useful age, useful time, the children ask questions, you know, they learn. These are some of the ways information are passed and is still relevant today. So these are some of the things that people like us tend to do or we are doing, you know, to ensure that oral literature continues, you know, it continues and the knowledge is being dispassed on the web because everything happens on the web. So we need to also put stuffs on the web as well. when people search they'll be able to find um some of these projects. I did a project in 2017 2018. It was also a grant by the fireboard foundation for anthropological research in the US. So I archived some oral literature of the Euroba people. They all on my website and on my YouTube channel. So it is needed you know oral literature folklore it's it's it's needed. they are not pristine you know they are still useful in today's um world and even in education when you pass on information in class using storytelling the pope or the student tend to have a grasp of the idea or knowledge faster >> so we have to become the library right >> exactly >> yeah how do you see the advent of um translation technologies um are are they some somewhat of a a concern to you for the work you do in language. Are they an aid or probably somewhere in the middle like potential versus um problems introduced by language translation automated? >> Yes. So um we're talking about large language models. We're talking about CAT tools, machine translation, human language processing and whatnot. Yes, they are good in their own instances or in their own um rights. However, minority languages like African languages lack sufficient data to train these machines. They are not useful for our languages. Now, >> there was a time I was trying to do a presentation to tell people that look these systems are not good for our languages now. If you use them, you just get, you know, jagons. You get mistransation. And I actually did that presentation. I did hands on went to chip, went to Laura, um, which other word again deep and I did all that. Yes, they were able to give some clear translation based on data that people like have created. That was why I mentioned earlier when I started putting content on the internet a lot of people were just putting English. I was part of the people started putting Euroba language and I've worked with um agencies and organizations that have used my data you know to train what we call machine learning cartoons and LLMs now. So the problem now is like I mentioned earlier we do not have sufficient data you know to use for this um machine which is why I've always advocating you know encouraging people to also put data out there in the indigenous language rather than putting English. there's enough data on English which is why if you go to this large machine um corpora or this um tools whatever you put in there you get abundance of responses from the query but when you try that with minority languages you get less you know output so yes they are good in their own right however translators I wouldn't or even the translation industry is not encouraging um people to use machine translation holistically value or in totality. When they do that, they now shown those data back to translators to do the tweaking, human translators to do the tweaking and do the correction and review, you know, quality assurance. But that's a lot of work because it gives a wrong context. There's something called um syntax, semantics, you know, grammar thing in language. This system don't understand those things. You know, they just translate anyhow and the output is always is always bad. But I was reading a book that someone published. From reading the first paragraph, I knew this was done by AI. So those are part of the things that um like a challenge, you know, or a drawback for what we do as translators. We are encouraging agencies, industries. I've worked with most of these big tech companies, you know, to create data sets not just in Euroba language, which is my language. I also coordinate other language projects, you know, as um lingua manager or coordinator, you know, localization coordinator. We tend to work more humans and we discourage the use of machine translation for now. But when we've had a lot of data, you know, put into these tools, they would be able to some extent because communication is is human. M >> so when you come and say you are now creating something that is using human language machines are not human so there's no level of training you would give them to be able to communicate like human and said it is human language processing so those are part of the challenges that um AI is posing um for the industry however we are always encouraging the tech experts or tech companies to go up with human translators so that these tools would um become better in the long run, not now but for posterity so that in 20 years, 50 years time there will be abundance of data at least to some extent for this um tools to work perfectly. when you mentioned reading something and having that good intuition that it was probably AI generated. I I wonder as language gets so intermixed if that is going to be harder to do um as it trains on itself or it trains on the mix of human and machine language. It's it's both an interesting time and and a little bit worrisome time for what what it means to communicate. Okay. So, um yeah, it's still based on data like I mentioned earlier. So, I'm a member of Global Voices. I'm the lingua manager for Euroba language. So, we at Global Voices being an open space, you know, um a community of human rights activists, you know, people who are agitating for um a common goal. We have um made our data you know our news stories open you know for people to use um to train um their systems you know their algorithms and and whatnot but the context of Euroba language for instance and the use of their critics you know we add markings when we write um words um is still a challenge for this system. So to your question I think um what was your question again? Oh, I don't know. Just I I speculate what it means for language when, you know, a machine generated language gets remixed with our own human language. Um, and whether it's really possible in the future to be so certain. Um, you know, it's based upon everything that we've trained our own brains on. I just I just wonder like people expect there to be automatic detectors, which I don't believe is possible. >> There are tools for English now. You know you write something like you say proof read understand it proof reads and you know correct some of those errors. Why is it doing that? Because that's been the tool has been trained abundance of data in that language. >> Yeah. So maybe in 100 years if possible if that would happen because what I've noticed now is the big tech companies are not pumping a lot of money into African languages. you know they want data but they pay me you know stipens you know something that is not applicable in other places and which is why the Nigerian institute of translators and interpreters which I belong to have been motivating you know and are putting out information out there to educate translators that see you don't need to collect you know stipens you know they give them abundance of data and they pay little you you know, so it may get there in 100 years, but even at that, I do not see um most of the minority languages, you know, being um used perfectly on these tools because like I mentioned earlier, they are peculiarities and their distinctions between languages. English is like a straightforward language unlike a language like Euroba because one meaning one word could have five meanings you understand which has to come down to context and one word could be used in multiple ways. So if the system does not understand how we think as Euroba people does not understand Euroba language is um poetic yeah let me use that word you know most of everything we say is like in form of music in form of um poetry in form of poem so it's going to be difficult you know for for machines to understand this this um oral form of literature so hopefully we may get there and we may But fingers crossed. >> Well, I want to talk some about, you know, in your world and where you live like what open education means because, you know, over here in North America, it's it has a certain context and meaning. But um to to like people in education or just the the general like human population does does openness itself or open education like what does it mean in in your context and do you have to explain it to people if you say open education? Let me just do a trajectory of how I got to know about open education. So I can't actually remember how I came about open education in the first instance but what I remember is we started when I saw open education for a better world or mentoring program in 2020. So and I applied you know and participated in project and that was how we started. I was like oh wow this is nice. Oh open education sounded fresh to me. However, but when I looked um in depth, it is something I was I was doing before, you know, it's similar to what I've been doing since 2020 2012, which is putting out educational information for free on the web. So, I started more research, attending seminars, more workshops to and being the know of what open education is. Uh I love the fact that open education removes barriers you know to pedagogy and allows anyone anywhere you know to take advantage of educational resources. Um we have open university in Nigeria which is the pioneer um open education um establishment in Nigeria is owned by the government and while I was participating in that open edition a better word project I did open education world mapping there's a there's a site like that I'm sure you know that site um open education world mapping or something like that so I was the one who um entered um the data for all things open education in Nigeria Yeah, even governments that have resources and document that are open, everything was loaded on that site. So when people search and they're looking for materials that are open in Nigeria, they can actually get on that website. So for me, I would say open education is sharing knowledge openly um without any constraints on on dissemination. >> Right. Right. [clears throat] And I can appreciate so much that when you learned about it, you felt like well actually I've been doing that. That's very common. Um, and so, you know, um, very pleased to share last year that you got the the awards that we give out as a leader and I imagine a lot in the work that you do, you're trying to encourage, um, other people to have that same kind of passionate interest in preserving language and translation. Um, you know, do you see yourself doing that a lot and what how is that important to the work that you do? Yeah. So, um I have organized so many projects, you know, to encourage people and bring newbies on board. Um I started Nigerian languages data sc conference in 2023. It's going to be in its fourth year this year. So what that conference is all about is to bring linguists, academia, journalists, um tech experts and what have you together to discuss and deliberate on the way forward for um indigenous languages and I have um two WhatsApp groups where I have over 800 um um linguist where I mentor them you know on how to be um language advocates how to be a cultural heritage promoter, you know, so as to ensure that what I started, you know, continues even when I'm no more, there are still people handing on the bat, you know, like that like that. So, yes, it continues just like I was talking about um cultural heritage and and folklore, you know, I'm a folklorist and almost everything I do is about folklore because you get the the folktail from someone then you pass it on. So they to become folklorist in the long run. And I just want to personally thank you for your enthusiasm when we first communicated about the award and and I appreciate that you're going to be participating as a reviewer for this year. That's tremendous. Can you share some of the media projects you're working on, you know, in your studio like Well, thank you again for listening to Global Voices podcast. enjoyed our conversation that we had with Yasha Ayani and look forward to more podcasts just around the corner. Just so you know, uh we Global Voices is a podcast produced by Open Education Global and we try to bring you the voices of open educators from around the world. If you are interested in being on the show or want to suggest someone that we should feature, please let me know. You can find all our contact information somewhere out there on the internet. Every episode I pick a song, open licensed music, different music from the free music archive. For this episode, I had selected a track called Universal Language by an artist named John Shoemaker, and it's shared under an attribution non-commercial creative common license. Just in case, I've been asking Adisha if maybe he might share some of his Nigerian music. And in fact, he did send me the Nigerian music you hear now, a track called Congo Adepro [music] that he recorded in the same studio he was sitting for our recording. I hope you come back for more episodes of OE Global Voices. We're getting into the season where the determination happens for the Open Education Award for Excellence. There'll be a whole new slate of future podcast guests. I'm still catching up on last year, so there's never enough time to record all the conversations with the fabulous people that are out there. And it's our pleasure to be able to bring you their voices here on OE Global Voices.