Nurget Stadnick and the New Era of the Hells Angels | Full Interview w/ Toronto Star's Peter Edwards

Original Gangsters News with Scott Bernstein. >> Welcome to the Original Gangsters News Network and Podcast. We are once again going to welcome in one of the all-time great investigative reporters and journalists from the Great White North, our good friend, Peter Edwards. Thank you for joining us again, Peter. is twice in the same uh six weeks, I think. >> Oh, thanks for letting me back on. Thank you. >> Yeah. Well, uh, we had, uh, we had you on, uh, last month to talk about, uh, what's what's going on in Montreal with, uh, the fastest proof disappearance. But uh today I wanted to bring you on because last week uh in the Toronto Star Peter's newspaper uh he did a excellent uh expose investigative uh article on Walter Nurgot Stadnik, the shadowy [snorts] Hell's Angels Canadian president, the Godfather, and how under Nurgat in recent years and we've talked a lot about this on our pod and I'm excited to get your insight and and have you kind of take us through your reporting um about how the Hell's Angels have underwent uh you know a generational shift uh from you know kind of old school biker mentality in the way that a act move to a a new school more techsavvy uh approach and the the title of the article is Ontario's original Hell's Angel member is a surviving in a ch is a survivor in a changing underworld how Walter Stnick helped the Hell's Angels move from clubhouse into cyberspace. Uh, excellent, excellent reporting, Peter. Uh, take us through your, uh, your process if you can. >> Um, I was just wondering what ever happened to Walter because the thing is he doesn't he didn't have a high profile, but he was always there and he um, you there's no book of great quotations from Walter Stanick. Like he doesn't he doesn't really talk a huge amount. And so I was wondering when his conditions ran out, what was he up to? And there was a big gathering in um in Windsor in July and I was wondering what did Walter have to do with it. There was um a couple big things happening in Quebec. I was wondering what did Walter do and uh people and everybody always has to be off the record. Nobody wants to Nobody confronts him. Um, but just whatever happened to him and did he fade away? And then I was wondering how do you leave the Hell's Angels at at 74 when you've got all their secrets and and so just asking around he there but he's still um low profile and um he where he gets his power from is he he can just read the room. He can read people and he doesn't um doesn't need to to pound on a table and have everybody bow down to him. There's and a lot of people will chew over, you know, why is he so powerful? Is it is it bravery? Is it reading this? Is it reading that? But um it it's just accepted that um that this is a guy who um he's sort of like our pyramids or our spinx or something like he's just he's just around and he won't go away. and you have all these changes and he goes to prison and he's he's still there and he's still doing it. >> Yeah, he went to he went away for about 10 years uh in the in the mid 2000s to the mid 2010s, right? >> Um a little more than that, but he he um and then he was on really strict parole and he wasn't allowed to have more than one cell phone. He couldn't hang around with bikers. he couldn't um really really strict conditions and he had a construction job and I I checked about that and I I you sort of assume it's a no-show construction job especially construction you just think okay someone did him a favor but he actually was working at it like he he did take that seriously um and it was like everybody was curious but there was kind of a bit of fear there too and um there about a year and a half ago someone who had been his bodyguard, um, uh, Craig Mcrillam was was murdered outside of a, um, a buffet restaurant and, um, there was like kind of a no-show for the funeral. No online um, real mourning um, from from people in the area and and that that sort of had the whiff of um, Stnick at least knew about it, like how did he not know about it? And is that a threat against Stadnick or is that a flexing of muscles from Stadnik? and and people who really really know this stuff um are kind of shaking their heads. And the the people who act like they know, it's almost like a sign of someone's an idiot if they say they know because they don't. You know, this is a guy that uh really kind of defines the words mythology and mystique. I use, you know, I always use the word shadowy with him. Um he's he's more reclusive now than he's been in the past, but he's always been somebody whose word moved mountains and and and please correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't uh he he's somebody that likes to or that embraces delegating. uh he he while being hands-on to a degree, he's also someone that's uh not threatened by empowering the people around him. I I think about right now with Marty Rober uh in Quebec who who seems to be uh empowered by by Nurgot to go out of the country or even you know uh province to province within the country and speak on Nurgot's behalf. you know, people have this, you know, accurate view of him as uh as almost like a uh, you know, a a a superhero or a a Bond villain, a James Bond uh movie villain or a you know, somebody that uh you at least now in modern times, you hear more about than See? >> Yeah. And he he didn't have it easy coming up. I mean, he's 5'4. He um uh which the outlaws just rejected him on size. Like he didn't he didn't he was um just not wanted. Um John Pelia, who probably was the biggest mafia guy in Hamilton where he grew up, he did not want bikers in the city. Like he wanted it to be a mob town in his mob town. And so he was very um very very against anyone um coming up as a biker. He was he had a little group called the Kasaks who were kind of it it kind I think is a bit of a tip of the hat to his Ukrainian background where he um they had helmets with toughs of hair sticking out of the top of them which is kind of bizarre. And then he had something called the Wild Ones and they they were constantly um sort of under someone's foot. Then he he and another guy just rode off to Quebec and decided they're going to be Hell's Angels and he didn't speak French and you it's sort of a um people are still kind of shaking their heads about that. It's sort of um like he did it and you wonder did he just just decide to do it and he ignored, you know, blanked out all the threats or did he have them all figured out? But but along the way um uh some cops have almost almost have Stockholm syndrome towards him. Like they're they they kind of think it's cool they're in the game with this guy and then other ones um just wonder you know you know is he a genius? Is he Mr. Bean? Like what is he? And um but he he just sort of keeps on going and it it sounds pathetic but for more than 20 years I've tried to find out what his nickname means and nobody knows. like it's now they're I went into that article having two theories and I came out with three by key and he just and I was talking to his lawyer and he said no no he won't speak and I said can you just give me the nickname you know like that that I'll be happy enough with the nickname and he said nope and um and like he he just doesn't give anything away and so you keep wondering did he was he really smart was he really lucky did the stars line up the right way that day But the even um the only time he was almost killed was by a priest who um was was at the papal visit and crashed into him and he was returning from a biker funeral and they set him on fire like that was the only time he was almost killed and there's the priest's fault like it was um and so I mean there's that joke about heaven and hell meeting at that intersection in Quebec, >> right? and um and he [clears throat] kept on ticking. Um there there's something odd about him where it's just there's an indestructibility and I thought it was a good time to take a look back at him. Um just where is he now and how do you leave the Hell's Angels? Like I've seen a lot of people leave them and they don't seem to keep anybody in there for that long, especially um outside of Quebec and um so there are a lot of former Hell's Angels and uh really really high turnover, a real generational problem and and yet he's still there. Um like he just seems to kind of either ignore the problem or conquer the problem, but he keeps on going. and with Martan Rober who's got the Kremlin tattooed on his chest. Um, big big guy in the biker world. When I was looking at him, it wasn't a clash with Stadnik. The the feeling I got was that Stnick allowed him to rise up because it was good for Stadnik. And um, >> so his his he knows when to step aside and let someone else have the spotlight, but he's he's always there. Um, >> there just something enduring about him that um that was I found fascinating. Um, >> so we know that uh Nurg patched in to the Hell's Angels I believe in 82. >> Yeah. >> And at an era where he was less reclusive, less shadowy, more on the scene imposing his will. And really, and always feel free to correct me if I'm off base, uh, you know, his legacy, in addition to being the the national president now going on almost 40 years is that he spread 81 around Canada. He took it from Quebec and brought it to Ontario, brought it to uh Manitoba, brought it to British Columbia. you know, he he was somebody that is personally responsible for the Hell's Angels having the status and stature that they do in Canada right now, which I I've become a broken record to a degree, but I'd be remiss if I just didn't say this and point this out, especially to people on on this side of the border. The Hell's Angels in Canada is a different breed than the than the Hell's Angels in the US. Uh, at least in terms of perception and in terms of standing with other groups. I mean, and hell, you know, in the US, they're still the the elite of the elite when it comes to 1% clubs, but in Canada, they they kind of stand at a higher level than almost anybody. And that's just not the case here. The the in the US, the the Hell's Angels kind of got to kind of share the room with a lot of other people. And other than the Rudos and I guess some mafia clans in Ontario as well, there really isn't any group that can equal the status in the standing of the Hell's Angels. >> Yeah. And he doesn't really even have a title anymore. He just sort of is like he just he's sort of hit the level where he doesn't need the title. um like he doesn't need um kind of the um something to introduce him. The in Quebec to like um Quebec nationalism is a is a really big deal. It's a real thing and um um I like I did French immersion there and you have to at least try to speak the language to to get through with people. Uh he he stabic I mean he obviously speaks English but he doesn't even speak English that much. He definitely he didn't go there as some um French language scholar but he just got through to people like he he somehow connected um uh he a lot of body language um bit of interpreting he got a so he he's very very hard to get on tape because he just doesn't he's not a big talker. I mean, I' I've heard him say a little bit, but but that was a like a little joke and to someone like he like there's not anything that um that you can stick him with. His his name online is Gertrude, which is shows a bit of a sense of humor. Um he I I heard of one um when the Satan's Choice patched over to the Hell's Angels, one of them went to Quebec and came back and and told people this is real organized crime. Like this is the real stuff. um you know don't like this isn't play fighting this is for real and um someone got to the top of that heap and he without speaking French and I think I told this joke before but I asked one um one guy in the Hell's Angels when he was away from everybody else how did he do that when he doesn't speak French and he said well he doesn't speak much English either and it was it was a joke but it was true and I um uh it's just Um it's sort of it's sort of odd that he he um just being able to read the room and and he didn't when he tried to call attention to himself and he used to wear this fulllength wolf coat and then he had a a gold belt buckle with Hell's Angels on it and he got into a fight with police like he he will fight. He's not the biggest guy in the world but he'll he'll mix it up. and um a police officer broke or bent the buckle and he sued and and he won. Like it's sort of a he's got these odd little little victories or things that you just don't expect. Um I I want to if it's okay, I want to read the first three paragraphs of your story. I think it really uh illuminates a lot of the points that we're making here. Um, and I think it also delineates between at least the Hell's Angels in the United States and the Hell's Angels in Canada. Just the way that you you set the scene here. Uh there was a there was a time when Hell's Angels Walter Nurg Stadnik was a spectacle to behold with bodyguards standing watch as he strutdded into Toronto's finest restaurants dressed in a fulllength wolf coat sporting a snakeskin money belt with a solid gold belt buckle bearing the Hell's Angels Death Head logos. And now you quote, is it Gee Willlette? >> Willlette Willlet Wlette. >> Yeah. Who was a biker investigator with the SQ or was he said that Hell's Angels, they would order $2,000 bottles of wine. The best without even thinking about it. The Angels ate at the best places in town. They stayed at the best hotels. You know why? Because they know the police with their little budgets can't afford to stay in the same places. Is that smart? Meaning like it's like a rhetorical question like >> yes, it's smart. Uh, but I think it also like that sounds, you know, if if if you didn't say Hell's Angels and you just took out the word Hell's Angels and I read this to somebody in the US, they would think you were talking about a mafia don because Hell's Angels in the US, now I don't want to paint too broad of a brush stroke here, but they're they're not going necessarily to the best restaurants and staying at the best hotels and ordering the most expensive wine. I mean, that that's that speaks to how the Hell's Angels are viewed and act in Canada. And that's why I've been so like a moth to a flame in in um learning about these guys and reporting on them and getting sources within them because uh I just think it's a it's a whole other ball game in in regards to uh how crime is done, how organizations are built, how empires are built. Um, and there was never a Hell's Angels presence in the greater Toronto area until you know, Nurgot was able to cap a what would you say was about a almost a two decade quest to achieve the goal of getting the the Hell's Angels into Toronto and then he was able to do that in uh in the big patchover in 2000. >> Yeah. And then it became the highest concentration in the world. I mean it went from from two Hell's Angels Ontario and you've got him and his um sidekick um and that's it. And everybody's kind of wondering is he going to get shot and he wasn't and their um Hell's Angel central where they're 110 within I think it was a half hour or an hour drive of the can tower. it. They were like tripping over each other and um it it was because he pulled it off and and a lot of people didn't want to join. A lot of groups um Satan's Choice, Vagabonds, people thought they'll never go over and um uh some like the Loners just um were happy being what they were and and yet it happened. The Quebec part when he went into Quebec, it wasn't as if that was um sort of this happy little summer camp. I mean that VTO Rudo was a big deal and his father was a big deal and his son is considered a big deal who's in prison now and um he just went into the heart of that. I I started writing about this stuff because I I just thought it would be good as a as a reporter to learn about the biggest mafia group in Canada and that brought me to looking at the Rudos and then I I had to look at the Hell's Angels because they were just so intertwined. I you go in there thinking that you're going to be looking at the guys who do the heavy lifting and no it was equal decision makers or even higher up and so um and they evolved like when when they started off they were you know doing the dirty jobs and um now um if you had to pick a top Hell's Angel or or a top mafia guy and say who's more powerful I don't I don't think you could or maybe you'd have to go with the Hell's Angel you definitely wouldn't have them as the um guys that carry the water. >> Um c can we kind of now drill down on this? Um would you say it's a generational divide that that he kind of uh is able to bridge the gap for or would you say this is something that all of 81 nation in in Canada are all kind of pulling on the same side of the rope where there's been a decision and again we've talked about it in regards to Marty Rober. This is more of a uh a macro discussion than a micro discussion that there's been a concerted effort to diversify and kind of take the the breadandbut money-making endeavors that you know kind of for a long time for bikers everywhere kind of centered on selling drugs and pimping girls and doing muscle work for other organiz and now the Hell's Angels in Canada specifically like you said they've gotten into cyerspace they've gotten into the tech world they're into the cryptocurrency I hear they're uh making a big push into the white collar boardroom gangsterism >> yeah and they're moving out of the clubouses too like you can't um uh you know park across the street from a clubhouse with a long lens and see everybody going in and out. You know, it's not happening. The um what was the biggest clubhouse doesn't exist anymore. The um and and a lot of a lot of people are getting into the Hell's Angels like Damian Ryan, not because everybody loves them, but because it's um like Lyndon Johnson said, it's better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. And um yeah, pardon pardon me for quoting your president in such crude terms, but >> yeah, >> former president, but I mean there is something to that like with a Damian Ryan. Do you want to fight him or do you want to just have him standing beside you irritating other people but not going after you? Um and so there there's a lot of people going in and going out of the Hell's Angels. There are also um uh people spying on the Hell's Angels by pretending they want to join and um the United Nations has done that. And so they're um it's it's not some ironclad thing and it's not like it's um stocked with rocket scientists, but but just the direction has shifted and um now it's less obvious things. And there's some things where um uh what's their connection with with um Russian um criminals? Like nobody really knows, but that's a that's a real thing. Um um people have world tattooed on them. And is that just bragging that they're a worldwide club or is that pointing to something bigger? Um uh the I mean there's rumors. I have not been able to confirm these rumors, but I know that these rumors are coming from people that are tied in and have the ability to have this type of knowledge that he might have a personal relationship with Vladimir Putin. >> I mean, that that's that's the level. Well, I should say Marty Rober. I don't know much about Nurgot, but Marty speaks for Nurgot uh when he's out of the country from what I'm told. So, I mean, that's uh you know, to be dealing with heads of state is is a lot different than uh selling crystal meth on the corner uh uh or you know, breaking up bars with uh with with brawl, you know, and and brawling or >> Well, River has the Kremlin tattooed on his chest. I mean, it's really prominent. It's actually a pretty good tattoo. Um, Putin is ridden with something called the Nightwolves and they're nicknamed Putin's Angels. And then people wonder, okay, is that >> a tip of the hat to Hell's Angels? There is a Hell's Angel charter in Russia. So >> in Moscow, yeah, >> this isn't stretched. Yeah. So this isn't a stretch thing. Um, what's the connection? Um, a lot of them when they get in trouble just leave the country and pop up other places. Um, I don't think Statenik's passports under his name has been stamped too much, but I think Marty Rober has been around quite a bit. And, um, uh, with the Wolfpack Alliance that gives them another another group that has real reach. Um, it's sort of odd, but um, there's just a whole bunch of things that Stadnick's done that he shouldn't have been able to do. He shouldn't have been able to ride to Quebec not speaking French when he couldn't get into um Ontario clubs like the Outlaws and go to the absolute top like like it shouldn't it's like you're cut from university football so you play for the Dallas Cowboys instead. >> Yes. Straight >> analys Yeah, it shouldn't work that way but but it did work. Um and then you won the Super Bowl. Like it's it's sort of >> So people like me I mean it's it's interesting to watch but I can't I can't say okay here's the reason. And um this is what exactly what happened. And a lot of a lot of people who should know are fascinated, but they just um shake their heads and smile and have another beer. Like they don't bother trying to figure it out. Well, you know, I think you you and I are cut from the same cloth, too, where maybe we're uh you know, we're so eager to report and we love reporting, we love investigating, sometimes maybe we don't even realize what's, you know, best for us or I I you know, when I was working on my uh my docu series Kingdom Come with with Vice a couple years ago, which we did a you know, a huge um investigation and historical retrospect perspective on uh the Hell's Angels in in in Canada and I was one of the only people that would speak on the record about Marty and Nurgot. Um and I and you know some of the people that I was producing with were uh wow you you really you have a you've got a lot of balls to get in front of the camera to talk about these guys. And I guess I mean I just kind of see it as part and parcel to what I do. I mean Peter, do you have you had any other uh journalists in Canada that kind of look at you and be like, "Oh, wow. You're uh you're pretty daring to to go down the these corridors in in your uh reporting regarding 81." >> It sounds odd, but sometimes it's bitter just not to listen, you know? Like sometimes it's better just to zone things out and um >> and who knows until you know and then it's probably too late anyway. And and when >> you hear why people did things I mean I heard that Michelle Oier was shot because his logo picture had a smile and that mom Bush thought he was laughing at him. Like who knows what the psycho gods are saying to the psychos. And right >> you can't run your life worried about what someone's interpreting on what. And um I try not to read the comments at the bottom of stories because generally they're it's like a I I don't want to get in trouble with the paper, but they're not the finest of our readership and um and they're not the bravest people out there. And um some sometime and sometimes you just don't know. And sometimes you end up talking to people because they don't know either. Like I got talking to Hell's Angels when I reported on the Bandidos and a massacre and when six of them killed 10 of them. massacre. >> Yeah. And some of the Hell's Angels were wondering what happened there, like how did they get so stupid? And I thought, you know, what where did that come from? And so people would talk to me more wondering, you know, what happened? And they the one guy really was brave. Like one guy, um, John Machedri, he he laughed at Wayne Callstine just before he was shot because it was like, you're ridiculous and I'm not going to be like you. And he wouldn't join his side. And uh some people in the Hell's Angels were were kind of amazed that this guy who didn't make the cut and didn't get into their club at the end um was so brave. And it's sort of odd, but I mean the biggest thing I've learned about reporting is sort of be quiet and let life surprise you. Like don't don't predetermine anything. And you know the cliche about two ears, one mouth, you know, like maybe there's a reason. Um >> I mean I I think I for you and myself and other great reporters in in Canada. Uh Felix and Dan and and uh Paul, Adrian, Antonio, Kim, I mean, I I think we're just doing our job. I think a lot of our reporting and is reverential if you if you kind of take a step back from it. I don't think anybody's trying to uh put anybody in prison by their reporting. So, I don't again, maybe I'm just too stupid for my own good or too smart for my own good. I don't know. I just uh I don't I don't really even think about it as something that is daring or or uh um you know something that I you know I'm I'm I'm skating on thin ice or you know I just want to tell a good story and and these people are you know they're they're icons and it's historic. It's historically significant. there's a, you know, history's at stake in terms of chronicling this stuff. And if I can >> for >> Yeah. For me, like it's just like a real thing and why ignore it. And um but I mean I like I'm starting talking with with a a guy um right now where the first thing is don't tell me anything you don't want to see in print and don't invite me if you don't want me. And so I there are things where um you might think I'd be allowed in because it's not a controversial thing, but I'm not allowed in. But it's because if I see it, I'll write it. And if I see someone breaking their parole, I'm going to write that. And if I like I don't um it's sort of like don't give me a check I can't cash. >> But but I'm dumb enough you can probably trick me. Like I'm dumb enough if you don't tell me that I probably won't know. Um, and so there are some people who um, it's really blunt. You know, if if you lie to me, then I'm going to write that you're a liar, but um, if you don't tell me, I probably won't know. Um, and what I don't want to do is keep a secret, and then the secret comes out somewhere else and someone says, "Oh, you ratted on me." Like, I I don't want that. That's my I I don't want to be called deceptive. I don't mind being called stupid. I don't mind being called anything else, but I don't want to be called deceptive. I don't want anyone to say, "You tricked me." Um I'm pretty straightforward and it's um don't tell me things I can't report and and for them um generally a lot of them they don't want to put anybody in jail. Like they don't want to if there were four people committing the crime and I only know three. They're not going to give the name of the fourth. And um >> it's my job to find that. I if I if I know it I'll write it though. I wrote um that Dominic and Pat Musatano, two mafia guys, um were trying to get money from the government for a tire recycling plant when they weren't environmentalists and they lost a a really big grant and Pat was extremely upset and >> it's sort of, you know, what do you expect me to do? Like I'm going to write that. And he he went off his tree on that one, but you know, I'd do it again. >> Rip to Pat and Angelo. they uh met violent ends and I guess you know you live by the sword, die by the sword. Um, can we uh get into what you learned about this past summer? I believe it was July, maybe it was late June, uh, Hell's Angels had a some type of meeting or group of meetings by where I live in Detroit, c right across the border in Windsor. And, uh, I I reported that a Nurgot made an appearance and there was a lot of anticipation. I mean, I was talking to law enforcement in Windsor for weeks before the actual event. There was, you know, newspaper articles in the uh local media about what the the locals should expect. You know, if you if you see a bunch of, you know, cuts and and bikers riding around town, you know, this is why. Uh were you able to learn in learn anything that we don't know about what was going on there? >> Um the big thing for me was um was Stnick involved and yes he was and I've got it from um you know more than one good source. Was he >> was he high-profile? Um no. Um but but he didn't he never was really that high-profile and so the big thing was that he was there that he hadn't stepped away from that world that he's in his approaching his mid70s and and still actively involved and it was mandatory. So if he hadn't been there that would have been a statement um things were were happening um uh there's quite a bit going on in Quebec right now and so this would there's there's no way in the world he's there and he's not paying attention. I mean, he doesn't go there just to look at the bikes. And so, um um that that gets you wondering, okay, what what's going on? And that he um if if you were trying to run a group and Stadnick's there, it unless you're working with him, but undercuts you like he's he's just too big, you know, you want to get rid of the old boss before the new boss can come in. He's he's the old boss's boss. And so um what it what it said to me is there's a certain amount of stability there. Um and then things did happen in Quebec something. So that you you think about that. Now my big question is um the upcoming um Leonardo Rudo trial where Hell's Angels will pop up a lot. where what to the hell's um >> one of the relationship >> one of the prominent Montreal Hell's Angels is is sitting at the defense table with them race. >> Yeah. and the they there were a lot of little subgroups um like people a mafia guy would have his favorite Hell's Angel and then you're kind of judged by the person you're with and so you you really have to hope that in the disclosure um you know the person you're connected to doesn't look bad isn't cutting something um Leonardo Rudo is a pretty bright guy too he's a lawyer and he's believed to still be having a lot of influence even though he's locked up suggests a lot of connections >> and uh it you know sometimes perception can be reality and sometimes what you see can tell a story and this is just this is speculation but the guy that has been running the street for Leo Rudo now he's locked up with Leo Razudo but up until they got locked in June of 25 had been the Rudo mob street boss David Barb uh Baldi Barbario. David Barbario um you know if you look and I say this with all respect because he's cuz Baldi is a you know he's an OG and and is the the um the real deal. But you know he looks more like a biker than a m guy. So, you would think that or well I know that he has really close relationships with with bikers and you know sometimes you have a guy like Marty Rober who looks more like a mafia don than a biker but then you have a actual mafia don and Baldi Barbario that looks more like a biker than a mob boss. It's it's it's uh it's pretty it's pretty intriguing stuff. Well, the best picture we have of Robera is in a tuxedo, right? I mean, he looks like he's going to take the stage at Las Vegas. He doesn't look like a biker. >> Um, and the the case is hanging on a um a hitman um Silva who >> Silva. Yeah. >> Yeah. And he I mean he's somewhere under pawn scum. Like he's about as low as you can get where he But he brags up how bad he is saying that he did 65 murders when it probably isn't possible that he did that many. But but on the other hand, he's done enough that he you know, he has done bad things, but do you believe him, you know, on so that the crown or prosecution, they they need other people to bolster him? Like he's not good enough and he's definitely not likable enough and he can't um start crying and say he fell in with a bad crowd. I mean, it's way too late for that. And um that's going to be a really telling trial and you you just wonder what's come out in the disclosure. like a lot of a lot of these guys their um their legal connections are pretty shaky. There's a guy Sid Leman who was kind of the lawyer to the bad guys and I remember um someone predicting he's going to get shot and then he got shot and it was >> he got killed by the cartel. Right. >> Yeah. And um Doug Jorski phoned me up. He was one of the um the guys who flipped and I I did a book on him. He he predicted that he'd get shot and then he I was trying to figure how to end the book and then Doug phoned and he's screaming away. Sid got shot. Sid got shot. And I'm not proud of it, but my first reaction was there's my ending. Like like now now I didn't know how it and I you always wonder when these guys are talking to you, are they lying or not? And if they pull you in on something, do they start pulling more? And Doug was saying that Leman is really central and that they're going to kill him because he took too much money and didn't deliver. And it turned out Doug was totally right. Uh I I this is again this is just an observation but I'll repeat it. Perception is sometimes reality. Often times it's reality. And I'm going to throw this out there and then I kind of want to get like do you agree or disagree? I I think the Hell's Angels especially in the last year to year and a half since the Rudo leadership has been under siege by not just the government but by Arab power and uh Tupac Antna and his guys. the the Rudos once again are on the ropes. They've been very resilient. There's been a lot of people writing their obits or you know since uh uh the war originally you know initially broke out and they they keep on bouncing back. So I'm not I'm not predicting the end of the rudos. But I do what I see and hear from my sourcing and I've read some reporting on this is that with the majority of the risoto mob leaders behind bars fighting this Project Alliance case, it's allowed the Hell's Angels in Quebec, in Ontario, and other areas to fill vacuums and and gain standing for a group that already had quite a bit of standing. Um, to make a long story short, they've benefited from the problems that the Rudos have encountered and this is two years removed from them ending their little feud that lasted for a couple years. So obstensively they're on, you know, they're on the same team, but it seems like they're whether intentionally or unintentionally leveraging the Rudo's downturn to propel what what Nurg and Marty are doing with the with the Hell's Angels forward. >> Yeah. And that the Hell's Angels are they're more horizontal like they you can sort of pick someone and say, "Okay, I think he's leading them." And you you can be reasonably sure, but I mean, if um if Robera and Statenic went away, they'd still be there. And with the >> with the mafia, it's more of a pyramid, like there's someone at the top. And so it's sort of odd and it shows my age, but I mean I've covered three generations of the Rudos and um you know the it it's a definite pyramid. It's a definite person at the top. Um Hell's Angels, it's kind of um what the group is thinking now and then there's someone smart enough to pick up on that and steer that. And I think that's part of what Stadnick's done is is being able to read the room. I think he can read a room really well. The and the smart ones um and I remember once I talked to a guy um Real Samard who was a hitman for the Catronis and he he said there's enough sunshine for everybody and he wasn't saying a happy summer camp thing. He was saying that there are enough potential drug addicts for every drug dealer and the smart ones know that like you don't have to um fight over who sells at what corner. you can, as long as there's a spot for you to sell what you've got, then, you know, don't complain. Just keep on going. I I did hear um with Stadnik that as much as he's feared that he'd rather buy you a beer than, you know, set up a sad ending for you, and so he he wants to get along, but but he's not going to stay up at night crying in his pillow if he doesn't get along. Like, he'll he'll move on to the next phase if if that's necessary. Can you um discuss you know any detail that you can add or any perspective you can add to this I don't want to call it a divide but this generational issue where you have the older guys like Nurgot and Skyling Gua and um Salvatore Kazetta Uh, and the guys that have been around forever kind of have been there either since the start or or close to the very start. I mean, Sky was one of the founding fathers in in 1977. Um, you know, Cazetta led the Brock machine and didn't join up until the 2000s, but it's still an OG. Walter came in in ' 82. And then the guys that have come in or patched in in the last decade, uh, there was some reporting, I'm I I always want to credit, I don't know, I think this was Felix, but I apologize if this was Dan, but there was some reporting uh in the French Canadian press uh a couple months ago about how there's been a series of of patchins uh more more than normal in uh in 25 and and 26. 2025 and 26. >> Yeah. I think there's just a big gulf between um how comfortable people are on screens. So, some of them some of them grew up with this stuff and they're really comfortable with AI and they'll fake court documents and that sort of thing. And then other ones, say if you've been to a prison 10 years and you're out, you you're you can be totally lost on the internet and you just don't care. like um you can have it so that your wife sends your emails and you don't send many of those and you just you just can't be bothered and you want to see people face to face and so um I I think I mean it's a common thing in almost every job like in in journalism it's the same thing you know where um some reporters are totally happy online other ones like to meet people face to face I' I'd rather talk to a person than read typing and wonder is it a real person typing >> yep I'm so it you you get these divides and you can also it means that you someone can work around your back on online and um so there's a sort of more mistrust and there are just less um uh shared experiences so that you you don't have that the brotherhood is a pretty hard thing to maintain when you don't know if um if you're even messaging the right person. >> Yeah. Everything's everything's digital as opposed to everything being face to face which it was for a long time. Yeah. And it's easy to be um brave on a screen, but face to face is a different thing and face to face at 2 in the morning um is a way different thing. Um and and so there all these kind of divides and in in Canada the um English French one is is there too. And there's um I I don't see Quebec bikers being bossed around by by American bikers at all. Like I just don't see that as being a a real thing. It's sort of odd, but I don't think Donald Trump has has helped law enforcement, you know, like these guys aren't um um they're just not going to listen. Um so you you have all these natural splits and it has to be that you're useful at the time and when a lot of people are in with the group and then they fall right out with the group and if um someone can control the room and swing swing people against you, then you're you're gone. And so I think it creates an opening for a little little new groups or it also um there's some people there's one guy I know who everybody's afraid of them but he's not in any club but he he'll do terrible things and um people are just afraid and so they don't want to be the guy who um he unleashes you know his anger on and so um there's just a lot more fragmentation and people come together you know that the idea that um there are no shared friendships, they're just um shared interests or I've kind of misqued Marquee Valley, but the idea that um if we share an enemy, then we're we get along as long as we share the enemy. Uh there's a lot of that and you get groups like the I think the new models are more the Wolfpack and United Nations where uh they're more of an association and they get along um because they share an interest. looser looser connected groups as opposed to more kind of paramilitary style. >> Yeah. And not looking at it for the long run. Like not thinking um this is what I'm going to pass on to my grandchildren. Like the Nick Rudo, you know, down to Leonardo Rudo. That's not going to happen again. People don't think that way. Um Vita Rudo, I think he got the top job when he was 66 years old. Like that that patience isn't there. some of these guys um rise up and flame out, you know, long before they're 40. >> So, uh before we wrap up this part of the interview and then we we close out, I want to talk about the death of George Shvalo, the Canadian uh boxing champion that passed away uh over the weekend. Um and just get maybe a couple anecdotes from you uh and his interactions with some 1enters. Um, but before we jump to that, my final question in regard in regards to this investigative piece you did, please everybody go check it out. You can get it uh online uh from the, you know, Toronto Star. I think there's some other people that have um reposted it, but it's one of the the best investigative pieces that's been done on organized crime in Canada uh in recent times. I loved it. So, everyone go check it out. What's the what do you see the as the future for 81 in Canada? >> A lot better by say November. I I'm really um they'll they'll keep um lower profile, more power um more overseas. Um less on the street. You're not going to see them running down the street scaring, you know, mothers aren't going to be grabbing their children and running into their houses as the bikers go by. It's going to be um and then more guys who can't ride bikes or don't aren't even interested in bikes. So they'll more more power less visibility would be the um the short answer. What to me personally is the most compelling aspect of this younger generation of bikers, guys that I would say are under 40, is that the bikes themselves don't play much of a role in the allure. It's the brand. Um, you know, I've coined the term the Sons of Anarchy effect, you know, after that show. You know, it's people want to be a part of a group like the Hell's Angels more so than they want to be a gear head. It used to be, you know, the gearheads are the ones that became the Hell's Angels, the ones that were, you know, uh, bike afficionados. And now there's people that want to join up that don't ride. >> Oh, and they're prder of having a Lamborghini, right? like they'd rather, you know, have a yellow ram Lamborghini and cruise slowly down the street than they would have some loud bike that they have to worry about people cutting them off and have some actual skill in knowing how to ride it, >> right? Uh so just as we wrap up, uh you were the one who told me I I didn't even see it that over the weekend George Shavalo passed away. Uh I I you know, I was a big boxing fan in my youth. There's not a ton of boxing to be a fan of now, unfortunately. uh you know the the big combat sport is MMA worldwide. But even though chaval was kind of before my time, I was someone who always studied the history of of and I got I started to get into the boxing in the mid 80s. Um, Shiovalo was a was tough as nails. He stood toe-to-toe with Ali Foreman, Joe Frasier. Uh, he he he wasn't an easy out. He was somebody that you were going to get uh, you know, everything that he had, he was going to leave in the ring. And he and he was a um, he would fight tooth and nail. He was uh just a very very scrappy feisty pugilist >> and he was never off his feet. He was um Canadian champion for 21 years. Never knocked off his feet. I remember when I was a little kid listening on the radio to him fighting Ali and that that was when there were 15 round fights and Oi was at his prime and so >> to be peppered by shots um by Ali for 15 rounds is amazing and he just kept kept swinging back and wouldn't go off his feet and um uh Ali at the end said that was the toughest guy he fought and Oi was urinating blood. I mean, it wasn't and there's some talk that, you know, the Rocky movie kind of rose up a bit out of that, but he he was what Canadians want to be. Like, he's if he had easily won a title, but it had been kind of cute and funny and tricky, that's not as much what we wanted as he gave us what we wanted. Like he um when you think of people that Canadians really admire, he personified it. And um Oie went into that first fight um mocking him like he called him a little washer woman. And then he came out of the fight saying the toughest guy he ever fought. And and then there was Fraser and Foreman who weren't exactly I mean they're both Olympic gold medalists and they weren't pushovers either. And he same thing with them. And he didn't beat them but he was there all the way through. And uh if the whole goal is to get respect then he got the respect. And um I don't think you're going to read anything about um about him that doesn't have the word tough in it. Like he he's as tough as it it got. Um anyway, when I was writing a a book on Bernie Gwindon of the Satan's Choice, um he and he was a really accomplished boxer. He got a bronze medal in the Panama Games. I I phoned um I I phoned he he came up and just um uh just just asking um Chevelo what was he like, how good was he, and he said he had a leaping left hook that was really good. He said that if he hadn't gone to prison, he could have really done something as a pro. And then he said that he had a personal problem where someone someone had a drug problem and he went to Bernie and Bernie helped the guy out and um and so he was and it's funny because as a little kid Shiovalo I mean I would have fainted if I saw him. he was that big and to have him being super polite and happy to talk because he's grateful to Bernie Quinn and that that's not what I expected and it was um and he would have talked on forever if I let him you know that how grateful he was and it's just not what you expect but Chavevel wasn't um hiding because oh this guy's a outlaw biker I don't want to wreck my image he he just just said it and he didn't qualify it and he didn't say don't quote me but or anything like that. It was a gratitude. And it it got me thinking that sometimes um some of these guys let their image go bad just because it scares people away and it leaves them alone. You know, they want to be left alone. And so, I mean, they're I mean, that was a a really good thing that Bernie did, but he wasn't bragging about it. He wasn't even really saying it. And uh it was kind of odd that he even found it out. >> Well, we you know, it's we'd be remiss whenever we were talking about, you know, the history of 1enters in Canada. You you can't have that conversation without talking about Bernie the Frog. He was the original the the first true biker Don in Canadian history. Uh he kind of started the entire movement phenomena. uh you know in in your neck of the woods, you know, in the US you had the Sunny Bargers and the Taco Bowman's, but it all begins and ends with with Bernie the Frog when you're talking about Satan's Choice and the birth of uh that renegade 1% lifestyle and and uh you know who represented it and and and it all it all started with Bernie the Frog. he's still alive. Um, Harley, his son, is is uh, as most people know, has uh, brought back the Satan's Choice in the last year and, uh, we've been, you know, we've been covering that and following that and shout out to Harley and shout out to Bernie. Um, but, uh, thank you so much, Peter. I, these are always my favorite episodes when I get to bring >> enjoyed it. I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you. when I get to bring on the writers that I grew up reading and and pave the way for what for what I do and guys that I aspire to be and then now I can say I have a you know you're a contemporary I hope I I'm not uh you know that just to be able to call you a contemporary makes me very proud. >> You have no idea how old I am. I'm a [laughter] >> written six books. Uh, Peter has uh has doubled me up. So, he's got over a dozen, you know. Go uh go get one of Peter's books. Read him in the Toronto Star. Still fighting the good fight in in a in a world of journalism that's getting getting ripped apart day by day by the economic forces at play here, the changing media landscape. But Peter still is doing what he does and he and he does it so well. We pay a tribute to you, Peter. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Oh, thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. >> So, we'll we'll bring Peter back if not by the end of the year. Definitely. Um, you know, by the winner. So, if if Peter's game, um, we love having Peter on. Again, these are some of my favorite episodes. So, uh, go check out his story in the Toronto Star about Walter Nurgot Stadnik. Uh, last thing I'll say, the the two people that I've spoken to about the nickname, and some of this was in the story that you wrote, um, one of the things that you you have in the story was about Nurgot being kind of a um, a play on the word nugget. Um, I also heard from somebody that claims he was there when when the when the when the nickname was uh birthed. And I don't know if this is just this guy talking and making up making this up or if there's some threads of truth in it, but he he seemed to believe it had something to do with a uh like a a piece of marijuana. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I there's the there's the candy one, the nougat, there's the >> small but valuable, and then there's the little um little batch of cannabis. And it sort of that >> I started off with two on my big investigation. I ended up with three. So, it didn't really I didn't really get any further. I I think >> the enduring mystery of the of the Walter Statnik nickname. >> Oh, and he's not going to give it away. I mean, I I I his his lawyer um he said it can't help you, and I I don't know if he's a nice guy, but I don't think I don't think he's going to stay up all night figuring how to help me on that one. Um >> the only the only comp in uh the US when it comes to this kind of stuff in the Italian mafia, uh there was a godfather of New England, uh Louis Moninocio, and everybody called him Baby Shacks. And to the day he died, I think last year or the year before. And everybody in Providence in the obit, everybody was, you know, bringing back the old debate about where did the nickname Baby Shacks come from. Then they never got nobody got a definitive answer. >> There there's a mafia guy who I put his French name in the paper and people are happy with it, but if I translated it, it means butt, >> right? >> You know, and um >> I I think I'd get edited out if I put butt in there. Think I have to keep that one in French. >> Well, thank you so much, Peter. Enjoy the uh the start of fall and uh you know, keep holding it down and and doing what you do, man, because uh it's important. It really is. It's important to still have people like yourself with your skin in the game and and holding people accountable and and giving, you know, these great investigative pieces. I'm I'm so thrilled that your your uh editors are still letting you do this because a lot of editors around uh I'm guessing around the world, but definitely around North America are are really cutting into important slices of the community that need to be written about. and and a lot of that uh space is being eliminated because of, you know, resources being cut and and I'm just so happy they were able to still still do it. >> I'm really grateful for my for my platform. I mean, I um uh for a long time I was trying to get in. Now that I'm in, I don't want to leave the boat. >> Yep. Well, thank you so much, Peter. Thank you for producing. >> Peter, have a great uh rest of the week. I'm Scott Bernstein, Original Gangsters News Network and Podcast. Please like, share, and subscribe. 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