Nonprofit Leadership: Creating Space for Better Thinking

[music] >> Hey, welcome back everybody. It's another episode of the Nonprofit Show. We are delighted to be talking with Kate Goodall today. She's going to talk about the power of what? Slowing down. Uh Kate, I got to ask you, do you ever slow down? >> [laughter] >> I I'm really trying. Yeah. >> Okay, I just had to throw that curveball at you. >> That's fair. That's fair. >> [laughter] >> Well, she and her team have a really interesting project that they're working on called Evermay and I can't wait to dig into this because I think that it's going to be a very unique conversation and we are just delighted to uh welcome Kate and so that we can pursue maybe a new way of doing things. Um I want to make sure that we give it wonderful shout out to our presenting sponsors who are with us day in, day out and they include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, JMT Consulting, Third Sector Company, Your Part-Time Controller, and Martus. These folks have been with us most of them since the beginning of of our of our life, really, here on the Nonprofit Show. I'm Julia C. Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I want to bring up we've been doing something a little different. Um we have some episodes now called The Nonprofit Show Global Edition where we just focus in on folks doing international philanthropy and work cross borders. I'm going to be in London shortly working with our team um that that we partner with um and it's been really an interesting opportunity for us to learn more about philanthropy outside of North America and so um I just want to make sure that everybody knows that we're doing that. Kate Goodall, she is the founding CEO of Evermay and comes to us from the DC area. Is that correct, Kate? >> That's correct. Yes, by way of England, but yes. >> By way of England, I love it. Well, we are thrilled to have you here because I'm absolutely riveted by your concept, your program, and I can't wait to get into it with you. So, talk about the Evermay and Embassy. What is it? Where is it? Um, we have an image of a gazebo area and it is just lush and verdant. Talk to us about Evermay. It sounds wonderful. >> Yes, what you're looking at in that image is actually part of a 4-acre garden, um, which by itself is not unique, but when you situate that in the middle of Georgetown, um, uh, it really is quite unique. Um, and uh, what we're creating is an embassy for the future. Uh, and the concept behind that is that we all have a shared future that we're invested in. Um, and we want to make sure that we are of reconnecting the wisdom of our past, which is sometimes spiritual, sometimes secular, um, with the all of these amazing opportunities, uh, that are coming at us quite thick and fast, um, and and make sure that we are co-creating a future that we all want to live in. Um, and uh, and sometimes it can feel like it's just coming, um, and it's already been predicted and it's already been packaged and sold, and um, and we think that we have, um, some really unique sets of assets and and location, um, to be able to to deliver on some programming that supports both individuals and institutions to slow down and align and and really help hopefully get us closer towards a a Star Trek version of the future than a Wall-E version of the future, which, no matter which political side of the fence you fall on, you can generally agree that would be a good idea. >> [laughter] >> Right, right. You know, I'm from the West, and I think that when you go to Georgetown, um it is a sacred space. And again, no matter where you are in the political spectrum, it I defy anyone to walk throughout Georgetown and not feel that there's something that's gone on there, right? It's a the way the streets are formed, the way the buildings are, you know, the the for me, being from the West, the greenery, the vegetation, and it just seems like it's an overall area that kind of shifts your brain, that kind of like shifts your mind. >> It's beautiful, and it's historic. It's existed, you know, before DC was even a place, and and it's historic too in its history around peacemaking. One of the the pieces that we're leaning on here is the the history that Georgetown has of these great salons and great uh gatherings that would occur at some very famous houses, the Kennedys, the Kissingers, Katherine Graham's house, you know, the Washington Post, um and so much would get solved in Georgetown from people who publicly and during the day were at odds with each other. And you know, that is something like things that I think we can um hopefully revive a little bit here. We're certainly in a very privileged position. Georgetown is is a very wealthy part of DC, which is a very wealthy part of the nation. Yes, absolutely. But but we think that it's a really great corner to start to pull together people who, you know, maybe don't see themselves as aligned or or don't feel that they can get aligned. Um tend to help a lot of this happen. >> It's really interesting because um so much has happened about how we look at place, especially since the pandemic. And we've we've all gone, you know, to a digital space and using technology to work and commune and behave, socialize. Um I'm fascinated that you have this physical space. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about how we use physical space when things are going so fast, so fast. Um how do we take people out of the digital climate and just okay, here's a here's a physical space and you can still innovate. Cuz it seems to me like though there might be some people that are just like, if I'm not you know, on my laptop, I'm not innovating as opposed to pulling back. Is that Is that something you're seeing? >> You know, I think you really astutely um nailed the it's essential friction that we're working with here. Um you know, you on the one hand, you do have this constant pull to be productive, to be in front of a digital device, um whether that is to scroll or to uh create and connect. Um and I think that uh you know, that that pull can be uh extremely alluring, but the productivity um and and the speed at which it happens um doesn't necessarily mean it will happen in the right direction, right? Um and sometimes I think we're all starting to feel that we do actually need to slow down and be physically embodied and have a moment to make a sound decision, um have a moment to um work with other people. You know, in order to make good decisions together about what our future would would ideally look like. We really do need to slow down to the pace where we can align around our values and align around the right types of legislation that would be needed to bring that future into into being. And then you've also got the from a very individual perspective, a lot of neuroscience pointing towards how necessary it is for us to slow down as individuals and feel embodied so that we can show up as in integrity with ourselves, right? And make good decisions and be good to those around us. So So there's all of that that's sort of poured into um this idea, this concept. It doesn't mean that people aren't sitting on their laptops here, but it does mean that their you know, daily practices around sort of meditating in the garden or you know, learning a new way of being with each other and and testing each other's ideas for you know, soundness or or novelty. And and that being in community and being physical in physical space with with each other. I think where it feels like a counterculture move is actually maybe more necessary than ever. Um and yeah, we can we can get back into that at any point. >> You know, it's so funny. I think about I love the word embassy and I think about the legendary and famed Embassy Row in DC. And there are other Embassy Rows around this planet. And when you go to them or if you're ever privileged enough to maybe even stumble upon one of these Embassy Rows, they are very again to use that word sacred spaces. I mean, uh a lot of cultural things go on, a lot of, you know, breaking of bread, people that maybe hadn't anticipated ever being together, um kind of joining. And it almost seems like it elevates the space elevates us to be better and more civil. And I'm wondering if that's why you chose this word embassy, um because to me, uh I immediately think it's a place of import and it's serious and it's not confrontational. And I don't know if that's just me, but I see it as like a peaceful That's right. >> glad that's your that's your association, cuz that's absolutely part of the answer. It's a very historic and gracious house, right? It was built in 1801. So, you do enter it and you do feel like a sense of grandeur, but hopefully you're also feeling incredibly welcome and like you can let your shoulders drop and and um and that, you know, so much of what we do is to connect people across boundaries or perceived boundaries. Um whether that's through music or food or things that maybe um get people outside of language and the things that can separate us. Um and so certainly I think you encapsulated it really, really well, but that's why we chose the embassy portion. Um and it's interesting because, you know, yes, there's all these embassies in Washington and some of them are so amazing. This isn't an embassy of no nation, but all nations. And it actually has pieces from around the world in the garden and in the house. Um and you know, we might even add a few more to make sure that we have complete representation, um so everyone can see themselves reflected in some way. Um and I think that's that's obviously really important. Um and then the So, the embassy part is very important and then the future part, cuz the future it happen in an embassy. And and and these ones, right? We we need to be able to um uh tap into the best parts of ourselves so that we can create a future for all of the future generations that don't have a say right now. Um and a future that's worth having. >> You know, it's it's interesting, too, because I I think about layering in that concept of being an ambassador. We talk about that all the time in the nonprofit space. It's like, how do we build ambassadors for our mission so that they go out and they champion our work, right? Like, whether it's running a cultural institution or a dog shelter, right? I mean, it's like we need ambassadors to help us and to um you know, reaffirm and again, market, if you will, what it is we're doing. And uh if we don't come together to learn that, it that kind of dies. That ambassadorship gets hindered. And so, it's really a cool concept. I think just overall, the the embassy piece. Let's Let's ask you a little bit more about the concept of this change of space and how we can impact different thought. It's It seems like we're so fractured um and we're not meeting together. We're not We're not finding new places to meet. How does Evermade fit into that environmental aspect of changing minds? >> Yeah. Um so, I think my co-founder, my um uh Dr. Kunan, who's the person that that uh um donated Evermade to her foundation, um uh and really took this very private, amazing private asset and made it a public asset, right? Um which I think in and of itself is worth worth noting. Um She thinks of uh her philosophy very holistically and has always believed that if you can give the right people the right amount of time and space and in her concept of space, you know, inspirational space, that that anything is possible. And that has that has underpinned so much of what she's done in the world. And that's a large part of, you know, the the philosophy behind this. Um And then I think, you know, you you add in the people that are working on extraordinarily big ideas. When we say that, we mean ideas that they may shape the beginning of, but may not even be around to see it come to fruition. Ideas that impact not just them, but the generations ahead of them. Or ideas that, you know, will have the kind of outside impact that, you know, they will be considered game-changing ideas, generationally impactful ideas. You know, we're really looking for the next Einsteins, the next James Baldwins, right? And when when you take those people pulling them out of their everyday lives where there are, you know, so many frictions, whether they are you know, people of little means and therefore they're scrambling every day just to sort of make sure that they paid bills and that they're not getting swallowed alive by all of the the the daily pieces that pull at us. Doing your own laundry, like all of the things you have to take care of to just, you know, stay afloat. Um you know, whether it's from that end of the spectrum or or maybe they're they're already, you know, pretty privileged, but they still, you know, have um uh a suite of worries and and they still have to sort of, you know, feed their email inboxes and um you know, just do all sorts of things. When they commit to having time and space to dedicate to these big big ideas um with themselves and with other um brilliant peers that has also been selected right in the brain. Um that is you know, that is ex- plosive time. I mean, right? Right, like that's like time out time. Um and we do everything that we can to take care of all of those daily worries. Um you know, we provide all of the meals that are carefully calibrated to, you know, people's dietary needs so that you don't even have to make a de- You don't have to spend the time to make a decision and figure out how you're going to get lunch. It's just, you know, you can just concentrate on your idea. Um so it's a very hands-on method. It's It's taking, you know, an old estate that could have either been just been someone's home or a historic mausoleum and it's turning into turning it into a really useful space. Um you know, another program we haven't launched yet, but that we would like to is one that pulls together um people who uh you know, need time around a table together to uh negotiate an important um agreement. Um whether that's at the city, state, national, global level, um we'd very much like Auberge du Maine to become a space for that, too. And that's that's another um uh reflection of what it means to give people, you know, truly embodied space and time with each other and maybe even disrupting, you know, the types of methods that we've used to do that thus far. >> Right. And I love that because I think that's uh think about the great accords throughout history, modern history, >> [snorts] >> you know, was done in a different place, right? You have to pick a place in a different even type of table. Yeah, to get people out of their brains to think about things other than themselves and their ego. I'm really, really a fascinating concept, and I love that uh, you not only have the idea and the wherewithal to do this, but you have this amazing space. Absolutely fascinating. I We don't have a lot of time left, but I really want to dig into um, your future fellows program. This is such an exciting opportunity for for thought leaders, um, but also for creatives. I was really interested in reading about this um, on your website. This isn't just for poli sci majors, right? I mean, you have a lot of different types of energy involved in this. Talk to us about whatever May is working towards. >> I love your questions. Um, yeah, they uh, the future fellows program is designed to hand-select people who are working on these sort of, you know, game-changing ideas. Um, and those people by design are people who are working on something that is so cross-sectional that it doesn't actually necessarily fit into a legitimate box yet. Um, or um, it's just too early or too radical for an existing institution to want to pick it up. Um, or it's not going to move in a way that philanthropy would consider fundable or venture capital would consider investable. Um, you know, so we're really looking for um, the types of ideas that we would all recognize, right? Um, that have forever changed our world, but they still don't necessarily fit into our systems for how we develop them. I think it's particularly pertinent at a time when, you know, a lot of our R&D has is no longer supported in the way it once was. But, I think to your point that cross-sectoral nature, having people who are in psychology and art and technology and science and policy all together is actually invaluable. And they, interestingly enough, everyone who applied um requested it. You know, they said, "I I just really would like to be with people who are different than me, who can spot the holes in my argument, who can make my what I'm building stronger." And there's a high level of tolerance for healthy debate among the cohorts. Um and to anticipate perhaps another question, you know, we're they're working on everything from human augmentation to preservation of spaceflight knowledge to large model reasoning models instead of language learning models to the problem of our attentional literacy to how to heal ourselves from trauma through self-recognition. I mean, it's really it's as wide as you could hope for for a very first cohort and so exciting. >> So, talk to us about what this looks like in terms I mean, you have this physical space, you have people from all over the world that have really exciting things going on in their head. Are you bringing them together in a cohort physically in ever may for a period of time and then they leave or do they come back? How do you structure this? >> Yeah, they they can come for 3, 6, or 9 weeks. Um that's by design because we realized some people would really benefit from a long stay. Some people don't have the lifestyle where they can take that much >> Sure. >> So, we want wanted to make it a little bit uh flexible so that we weren't uh diminishing access. Um and I we made sure that um I that there's both a diversity through the cohorts of people on both on similar things. Um that was really important as well to sort of ensure that peer group success. Um and uh and then it during that whole first 3 weeks um you know, we really want to balance uh giving them time to themselves and providing things that are additive and useful. So, um uh you know, we do have a few um uh meetings with people from the Boulder Digital Community who could be helpful to them. Um that's sort of programmed in. Um we have uh meditation and embodiment workshops for them. Um but other than that, they're mostly unprogrammed and they can, you know, do what they need to do during the day whether that's work on uh their project or talk to each other if they want to set up something impromptu, or just, you know, go and get some peace somehow. Um uh and then at dinner they come together and and they've determined the the rules of the road as it pertains to their uh deliberations, but over dinner um they they get to kind of weed through what they thought about that day and um you know, how they can help each other and then that's um each of them at the end of their stay, whether that's a 3, 6, or 9 weeks, then also does a public presentation of their work. >> Love it. >> Um and that obviously it takes different forms because they're so varied. Um, but that's that's an opportunity for people to physically here, come and see them, or we will also put that online so that people um, who just want to dive in and see what it's all about and um, can do so. Um, cuz that's, you know, getting their ideas into the hands of people who could be helpful is is a really important piece of this. >> Great. I [snorts] love that because you don't know what you don't know, right? So, until you can get some new ideas, and I also like the idea of um, a new spirit of looking at for new ideas, right? I think that's a really great um, opportunity for people to say, "Yeah, you can sometimes you do need to step away. You need to not just work harder, you need to work smarter, and if that allows you uh, that opportunity to make that investment, I've got to wonder if this is a hard sell for people around these thought leaders to to leave your family, your work, your your industry for these periods of time. What are you seeing and hearing? >> You know, it's interesting. I uh, prior to this actually ran a residential incubator for social entrepreneurs. So, it was uh, it had some similarities in terms of um, uh, that aspect of things. Um, and for people children and spouses, you're absolutely right. That's that's asking your partner for uh, a bit of a sacrifice, right? Um, and that program was longer. And I think that's part of the reason that we, you know, we have this treasure and adventure option in terms of length. Um, and we do also make an accommodation uh, for a weekend if uh, partner would like to come and stay. Visit sort of halfway through. Um, which I think if you're if you're gone for 3 weeks and you get to see each other in the middle is not it it meets the sacrifice a little bit, right? [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, it I I think too, you know, we we need to have the support of those in our lives professionally and privately, right? Um and if it's just like, "Oh, you're going on vacation for, you know, 3 weeks, 9 weeks." It it's That's That's a tough sell. I can see boards being, you know, like, "What? We're going to send our leader away?" I mean, so yeah, I I love that you've built that in. I think that's really really smart. Well, this has just been such a fabulous conversation. I'm really impressed um with your concept. Um I encourage anybody who is is in, you know, the thought leadership, especially of the nonprofit sector, to check out uh evermay.org and and take a look at what their process is and and what they're working towards. Uh you know, Kate, it's an interesting thing. When I was preparing for this chat, I was thinking about this is not a new concept of going away and finding safe, sacred, quiet space. But for some reason, we have lost that, you know? So, it seems like we're going to have to almost like rediscover this concept. Um and evermay.org, you can learn more about it. It's very very interesting. I was telling uh Kate in the green room, I'm like, "Sister, sign me up." I mean, I just I just loved the the um the opportunity to get into a different headspace. But yet not What I find so interesting, Kate, is that you're you're marrying it with other thinkers. So, it's not just like go out in the woods and sit by yourself. It's like this engagement that's going to push and pull. Very interesting. >> Yes. Thank you. I really appreciate your thoughtful look into it and and and your questions. It's just been fun. >> Yeah, it's been just great. Kate Goodall's joined us today on the nonprofit show. She's the founding CEO of Evermay. And again, you can look at evermay.org and really dig into this and the future and how we can bring our ourselves and our people together for different opportunities that are thoughtful with as Kate said something really interesting in the very beginning that might come about after you are gone on this planet. You know, that these are long-term opportunities for structure and thought. Very, very interesting. You know, we get to have these fabulous guests like we've had on today's show because we have fabulous sponsors. They include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, JMT Consulting, Third Sector Company, Your Part-Time Controller, and Martis. These are the folks that stand with us day in and day out. Uh Kate, we have this saying that we leave we leave every episode with and today with you I'm thinking about it in such a totally different way. And the message goes like this. To stay well so you can do well. We'll see you again.