NEMO European Museum Conference 2025 | Panel: Collective care - Museums, communities, and wellbeing

Okay, so we're back after our coffee break and we're on to our first session which is about collective care, museums, communities, and the practice of well-being. And I'd like to pick up some of the some of the thoughts and ideas that were shared this morning. One of the speakers said that museums can heal. And that's an interesting reflection. We also heard from Elizabeth about three potential futures which concern tech, human connections, and systems. She also told us that systems are hard to change. Most of us know that but there's also a public concept of museum that is also a challenge in itself. So the questions that we'll be trying to find an answer to would look like or read like what care looks like whose well-being we are really talking about and practice how museums can embed collective care within within their practice. And I'd like to introduce three seeds from the present that we can water and I'll be introducing them. So there's Mia Listed. Hope I got your surname right. She's the the director of the Ovarachi Museum in Denmark and she's led this museum in Aros since 2004. We've also got um Roberto Casaroto. He's the founding director of dance well and co-dire of co-irector of waves Italy and he has developed numerous international dance initiatives. He'll be telling us a lot about that. And then there is senate rice who is head of education and public programming at the national gallery in Ireland and she'll also be taking us through an interesting project that they have been working on at the national gallery. So without further ado, I'd like to invite Mia. >> I'm always hopeless with names, so I'm want to make sure that I get through the stage. >> Thank you. >> To tell us more about the project. >> Yeah, sure. Thank you. >> Floor is yours. >> Thank you. >> Hello everyone. Uh and thank you for inviting me for this conference. I've been looking forward. we have at the museum. But I will start with a small video. So I hope this the technique is with me. Museum of Vatasi has its roots in the old psychiatric hospital of Ous established in 1852. Back in a time where long-term hospitalization was the main treatment, patients spent their time in the psych ward creating art and artifacts. These unique creations continuously formed the collection of the museum. A restructuring of the Danish hospitals meant a relocation for the museum in 2023. Now we reside in the northern part of Orus in close proximity to the new psychiatric hospital. Relocating has been a great opportunity to rethink and redefine our values, our educational activities and our social value approach. Now we are a part of a process of urban development transforming a bleak area to a more lively cultural city quarter. With our temporary exhibitions, we bring young artists to the museum focusing on current societal topics. Our permanent exhibition now includes more interactivity, direct questions to the public, enhancing reflection and discussion. Historical artifacts from Danish psychiatry tell the tale of the reality met by former patients. Here we challenge the definition of gender, norms, identity, and imagination through the artistic universe of our most known artist, Ovatasi. Was a psychiatric patient hospitalized for 56 years, diagnosed with a complex mental illness such as schizophrenia. A skilled painter, he created countless artworks during his stay at the psych ward. Besides its artistic qualities, it acts as a prism. It allows us to see the development in how the psych psychiatric patients are treated then and now. >> Another important part of our DNA is the creative workshop for people struggling with mental health. Welcome to our creative workshop. We open 4 days a week or year round and uh you can join different kind of the workshops. Here we have the ceramics. Yeah. Over here people are working the decopage and leather sewing drawings. At our workshop you are not defined by your diagnosis. Just come as well. We know you are amazing. We love to encourage creativity with our creative activities. We try to demystify mental illness for the young generation. For the young adults, we have an open approach with projects tailored to their wishes. Here, young participants get to set the agenda of exhibitions and events. They are our ambassadors for the future. As a small museum, we are grateful for our circle of volunteers who come with creative ideas, helpful hands, and big smiles. Authentic social inclusion is what characterizes us. The Museum of Aasi is a museum for everyone. Thank you. And of course uh we have to show you this um logo from from Mia because this spring we uh received a an award. So we are very proud and uh happy. Can I do the slides? I do. We have some slides as well. Thank you. Um I can just start here. Our vision and our activities at museumachi are inspired by the artistachi as you met here. Uvatachi was a psychiatric patient for 56 years in creating art east his mental struggles. He created more than 800 artworks, paintings and sculptures now on display at our museum. His art is deeply relevant today because through his colorful life, his identity and gender in flux, he challenged the definition of normality. We have a unique narrative with a focus on art and how creativity and inclusiveness can better the lives of people struggling with their mental health. Our main task force task therefore is to force foster understanding and remove the taboo around mental illness. This focus is a huge opportunity for our museum because this topic is more relevant than ever. We make it possible that many people feel better through art and culture by walking new paths. How do we do this? We reach out to unconventional venues, projects, and new audiences who are not part of the local cultural agenda. We bring art to public spaces, libraries, hospitals, and even to public transport. We invite young people in to set the agenda in workshops, events, and even as curators of exhibitions. and we organize a collective gardening project including yoga and mindfulness sessions. We strive for social impact through art and creativity. Focusing on every single person is our main goal because for us everyone is unique and special. Our everyday practice, everything we do is influenced by our social responsibility. We operate based on three core values. Accept, respect, and trust. Accept. At our museum, you can come as you are. A teenage spy once came up to us, Hudian, and said, "I like coming here because I can just be me." An important part of our community is our creative workshop daily visited by 10 to 20 individuals who are vulnerable or living with mental health challenges. Respect is not just something we say. It is how we greet people, see them without judgment and make space for them to contribute. We avoid labels and don't put people in boxes. We make room for imperfection in people, in art, in our spaces. Our building is full of lounge zones and people from all walks of life. Trust. We believe everyone has resources and something to give. We work closely with the municipality of to offer a range socially responsible employment models from flexible jobs to internships. This gives us an inclusive and diverse workplace. We trust people to contribute in their own way and they do. But why does this work for us? Care and social responsibility is not something we add on. It is embedded in who we are. Our collection of outsider art and psychiatric history makes visible those who have previously been excluded, overlooked and misunderstood. The the life and art of the artistic transforms how we think about ourselves and each other. Our sensit our creative workshop has been in an integral part of the museum since the beginning now not as an outreach project but as a core practice. So we look forward to welcoming you and museum in August and we know that you are all unique. Thank you. >> Thank you Mia. That's that's inspiring I would say. I mean a museum with a holistic social value approach. That's quite an interesting uh project and I'm I'm really curious. I have already lots of questions and I'm sure also the audience has much more to add. So I would like to invite Roberto next to give his presentation. >> Can I speak from here? >> Definitely. >> Great. Thank you. I'm Roberto Kazarto and I would like to thank Nemo for having me here and the speak the people that spoke before me this morning. Um I've been very lucky because in the last 15 years I've been part of teams of dance artists, museum experts and scientists that have been exploring what dance can do or how dance can inhabit museums. We've done it in massive institutions and the tiniest little museums across Europe, Japan and Hong Kong. And in this journey uh some scientists helped us to discover the neuroesthetic um experience. When we uh are exposed to beauty, beauty enters into our bodies through the senses. And when we dance, we activate more than 21 senses at the same time simultaneously. So the neuroesthetic experience um or the exposure to beauty um somehow triggers some neurotransmitters that boost the use of physical, mental, emotional, empathic, imaginatives um possibilities that anybody has. Bodies of different ages and bodies with different abilities. With this in mind, we've developed some programs that have explored dance for people living with Parkinson's, dance for people that live and are beyond cancer, and most lately uh some dance practices for uh people, young people, teenagers that live with psychological vulnerability and depression. And I'm going to focus on that in a minute. But before maybe I share with you what is a dance practice. Um basically it's an embodied uh action where we uh look at the body as a site of knowledge, learning and experience. We don't divide the mind from the flesh. Um, we've been trusting the ability of uh processing through physicality, through motions, through emotions, information and to read the reality we live in with this knowledge. So I would like to ask Rebecca to introduce you to future moves. Future Moves is a brand new experience that we are developing with the municipality in the northeast of Italy, a city council, uh the museums of the city, um the local health um national agency and two foundations that are supportive and an organization of dance artists called Aventi Dancer. Future Moves introduces contemporary dance practices in museums to group of teenagers. They are invited to move and express themselves in the exhibit spaces during the opening hours using imaginaries, images, dialogues with architectures and works of art. They navigate experiences that are both individual and collective at the same time. Future Moves offer young participants tools and skills to face the challenges and the critical issues that often accompany growth. It is aimed at engaging mixed groups of youngsters, some of them living with psychological fragility and oppression. The dance sessions are held regularly every week and are offered free of charge. The practices are led by experienced dance artist who have been working cross-disciplinary for many years and are designed to activate soft skills. Teenagers choose the specific artifact that will inspire each dance session and they take turn in describing that artwork to the group. They are encouraged to co-design the activities to develop their own narratives and to discover new ways to engage with arts and heritage. The involvement of a scientific team is particularly relevant in addressing the dynamics, the looming critical issues, and the challenges that impact young people in adolescence. Together, we explore new territories of action, how dance can impact well-being, health, and social dynamics. We look at limits as opportunities, enhancing different and alternative definitions of beauty, and excellence. Since May 2025, the civic museums of Vicensza opened their doors to welcome young people and dance, placing the human body in motion at the center of new forms of immersive dialogue with art and maybe I can share some glimpses of what's happening in this museum. Um most of the times uh at the end of a dance session when the participants the the dancers the teenagers start to describe what um an artwork from 500 years ago uh resonating them. They they may orders and and art historians, but they really um engage each other and often the visitors of the museum to the point that the people that guard the rooms have to ask us to leave because the time of our session is over. And this is of course something new for that museum because it's very hard to convey teenagers and it's even harder to keep them in a room concentrated and engaged uh to the point that they don't want to live. So what we've been doing um from the very beginning was to involve all the parts that are involved in this project. So people from the municipality, from the health care system, from the museums and also from the supporting uh sphere, the uh foundations that are allowing us to make it happen. And from the very beginning we discuss the fact that when we start these kind of initiatives like the ones for Parkinson's and people that live uh with cancer we don't put an expiring end and we we tend to call them processes because they have such an impact on people's life that it's very hard to say it's over or it will end. So this is another concept of um sharing responsibility and building shared strategies to make it sustainable. Uh on the other hand, we are also um aware of the importance of sharing protocols of behavior rules and assuring the people of the museums that the dance artists can bring knowledge. they can manage a room uh where people are dancing and suddenly you have a group of visitors. So in real time they can adapt and change what they are proposing and coexist. Most of the times the visitors join the class as you can imagine and uh and also what it is to practice empathy uh especially from the perspective of the personnel and how they can you know uh in some ways um empathically experience with the participant what we build together. >> Fantastic. A round of applause. Thank you. That was great, Roberto. I really find your project interesting because it's not about the museum becoming a space for dance, but the point of departure is the collection, is the artwork. And I really think that's a that's an interesting take. But without further ado, let's have Senit present her project. >> Okay. >> Which is about a journey towards collective care. a slow journey. Um, I just wait for it to be brought up. I'm distracted now. I I think this happens to everyone now. I want to dance and I also want to go to our house. So, my own work now doesn't seem uh I want to do something else. Um, so yes, good morning. My name is Chenade Rice and I'm a head of education and public programming at the National Gallery of Ireland. And I wanted to take you on a little journey about how we are slowly getting towards uh more of a sense of collective care at the gallery because we do care. Um absolutely but it's a slow journey. So just to start because the more I work with Nemo and the more I meet people from different museums around the world and across Europe I realize how important it is to be able to give context to where we work because it does really shape what we are able to do and how we do it. So, the National Gallery of Ireland, which is over here on the screen, um is located right in the heart of Dublin city center in one of the most affluent parts opposite a beautiful park. On uh to the left there are our Houses of Parliament and to the right is Trinity College Dublin, which is a very famous um institution. It is quite classical in terms of style in terms of Georgian um architecture uh that would have been seen in the United Kingdom at the time and uh the collection reflects that also. So the gallery always had education at the heart and this is reflected in the very first minutes from the board of governors and guardians in 1854 after an act was passed by parliament to set up a national galler of Ireland. And they said that the chief object of such an institution as an educational one demands it should be open to all and free of charge. And it is. And when it opened 10 years later it was open to the public. Students came in and drew from the collection. Um they copied from the masters. And today it is open 7 days a week, 362 days a year. And like all the national cultural institutions in Ireland, it is free of charge, which is fantastic in terms of overcoming one barrier. However, even though education was at the heart of it, it wasn't until 110 years later in 1974 that the first education officer was appointed at the museum. After that an education department was established in uh 1990 and with this we had a shift to people first programming moving away from just the care of the collection and into care of people also and something that's been really important for me as I've gone on this journey trying to think about collective care and where we get to that is that it is a slow process and we can only be where we are now myself and my team within the institution because of all the work that came for a long time before, such as, as you can see on the screen, very early tours for new mothers in the gallery in the 90s. Things that kind of, I suppose, uh, were radical at the time in terms of bringing lots of children, glass, jars of water, people in to work in the galleries and in the rooms and draw in the rooms themselves and painting the rooms themselves. And in terms of working uh finally going beyond the walls and into outreach programming, we also began in the 90s going out and working with hospitals as well, which you'll see in this beautiful image of this little girl in a children's hospital in Dublin city center. And this work very much paved the way for the work that we are trying to do today in the education department at the gallery in terms of fostering that culture of care. So we are now hopefully at a point where within the institution we're a collective focus on community health and well-being. A strategy for the National Gallery of Ireland. One of our key aims is to be a gallery for all. And as my colleague Bina Casey who's here today as well pointed out last night, the education department live and breathe that ambition at the gallery. Our mission is to provide accessible inclusive opportun opportunities to learn about make and explore art. And this is very much anchored in that ethos of expanding accessibility to the museum's collections and leveraging art for societal well-being, which I think is really important in the context of this conference and in our work generally. Collectively, we are we decided as a team in order to advance these objectives that we needed to commit together to working on-site, off-site, and online. And this is over the past 10 years we've been doing this. This is very much to try and achieve a situation where no one person is responsible for outreach but we are all going beyond the walls to try and engage the different remmits that we have responsibility for and working more collaboratively to do so. We decided to identify and address barriers and prioritize research where possible. We wanted to strategically support underserved vulnerable communities and respond to societal needs. And when I say strategically, I mean that also we make it a strategic priority to do something. If there is a limited budget, collectively we decide, okay, we're going to focus it here because we've said that this is something that needs to be addressed. We avoid parachute programming at all costs so that we don't go into a community deliver something and then disappear as uh we know this to be quite detrimental at times. It's a challenge obviously with funding but this is something we strive to do. We have embedded equity, diversity, inclusivity, and we really strive to uphold our public sector duty in relation to discrimination and human rights. We have developed dedicated arts, health and well-being strands, and we've really worked to make well-being an objective in other core programs. And fundamentally, we are advocating for a more inclusive institution, accessible, welcoming, and culturally competent. This has allowed us to enhance some of the existing programs we have. And one such here I'm blocking it on the screen sorry but this is uh I'm I'm in the way of the text. Oh sorry thanks. Uh this is a longstanding partnership we have with the children's hospice in Ireland where we have gone out provided restbite um services within the hospice delivered programs and projects not for just for children uh that are uh at end of life but also for their families and caregivers. But working in this way has allowed us to enhance that program. This is um an image from a major project we've now run for a couple of years with our national theater, the Abbey, where a whole production happens. The children are involved from the outset and it is quite transformative in terms of a day for the parents and children themselves. It's allowed us to learn. It's allowed us to be a bit brave and do programs we may not have done. And this is a still from something from there, a three-year program and national community project working with people who were living in direct provision, which was a center for people seeking asylum who were waiting to be processed in Ireland. Um that was created again by my colleague Bina. It has allowed us to push in terms of what we already do. So we have a long-standing commitment to providing a service for um people with dementia and their caregivers. But earlier this year, we worked with a contemporary artist to show a film about dementia, to create an um an installation with time- based activity in the gallery and also to have um a full program where even the activities we were running for very young children spoke in some way to memory loss um which enriched the program in the round as well, not just for people to mention their caregivers. >> And it's allowing us to lead and to learn and to lead. Um so a project that we're very uh happy to be able to discuss with the support of Nemo in particular with uh Margarita through the learning and engagement network is our work in art psychotherapy and the museum and this is a program we've been running for over three years now. We began with a pilot where we worked with uh women who were experiencing domestic violence and a uh service provider for them in Ireland. And we worked in collaboration with a art psychotherapist who's here again today my colleague Andrea to develop a program where we could put art psychotherapy right at the heart of the museum respond to the collection uh do art psychotherapy workshops and provide a really valuable service that our frontline services weren't able to do. So, no words is this program and there's um ample material on the gallery website about it and my colleague Andrea is going to run a workshop tomorrow that I know some of you are going to which specifically addresses it. But it's a collaborative project developed in partnership with our art psychotherapist and it provides those sessions at the gallery for vulnerable people. It can and does deliver far-reaching impact of mutual benefit which I think is really important both for participants and the institution alike. And the model, just as you were saying, which I thought was really interesting as well, some of the best programs we have are agile and adaptable and can be taken to different spaces. Um, the model can be adapted to support a highly diverse range of cultural spaces and audiences of all ages and abilities. And in fact, no words is a wonderful title because you don't need to have a common language to engage in these sessions because the language is really through the process of making art. It has led to the appointment of the first and only cultural arts psychotherapist in residents in a museum or cultural institution in Ireland and it provides opportunity for partnerships with a myriad of organizations, services and communities and for enhancing our existing programs. This program for me almost defies defies categorization because it can work for so many people and it is enhancing what we already do. In the future, we are looking at collaborating with higher education institutions to develop accredited modules um on art psychotherapy and museum based art psychotherapy and consult on post-graduate arts and health courses. And we are currently authoring the no words art psychotherapy in the museum learning and engagement um in museums and Nemo publication in 2025 and my colleague Brienne here today is currently writing that at the moment. I want to end with a quote from our psychotherapist um from our art psychotherapist Andrea because this for me really sums up what we're talking about today and how we've got to how we are getting to the point where we are properly embedding a culture of care in the museum. And Andrea says, "I've learned to trust that together we can hold and support even the most vulnerable people within our society to safely find a creative space that is traumainformed and protected. That to me is success when art care and community meet in a way that sustains hope and everyone therapist, participant and artwork alike is changed by the counter and thank you very much. Great. Lots of things to to consider to think about. If we had to site the future cone that Elizabeth has shared with us this morning, these are possibilities. These are happening. This is the real thing. And I'd like to kickstart the conversation with a question with a general question to you all. So in your case, Mia, it's a it's an art museum, but not quite. It's a museum that is focused on health and well-being, but not just in your case, you're working from outside the sector with with, you know, with curators and and with museum people. In your case, it's a national museum. So, there's an one other level of of connections and the politics of it all. My question to you would be, what are the challenges that you have encountered? I mean I'm sure that the audience here would be interested to know not just that it's doable but how what challenges did you had to engage with and how did you also tackle those Mia? >> Wow. Yeah. What challenges? Um at first our one of our challenges was that we had to combine you know we are an art museum with with all the uh responsibilities for the different subjects collection uh communication everything. Uh but when we started this new museum actually we had the two collections also a historical part. So our challenge from the beginning was to um make this um uh work together. Um we found the way. So we are still nowadays an art museum uh with roots back in the historical part of our collection and the psych the psychiatric history. Uh the challenges nowadays um could be to communicate to communicate um who we are to the public because people will say that well what are you then are you an art museum are you a cultural or you do all these kind of creative things. So what kind of museum are you as you ask us we would say that we are much more than a museum. So as I said we do not add it on because we are this kind of museum but we are much more because we we believe that we have a certain uh spirit um within uh the organization. So this is mixing our daily uh work is mixing all these ingredients you know uh communicating art uh working with the young people working with children uh the the uh art studio. So it is a part of our daily life you know the way we see uh this the world outside and the people visiting us people who come to our place. So it's a it's a kind of thinking and um yeah uh we also have the chalice of course sometimes when we are with the e economical part again because we we we put beside between two chairs sometimes uh we do not uh say about ourselves that we are a theraputical we do we do not uh use the word therapists at all because we just do this kind of work as a normal part of of our daily work. So sometimes the definition can be quite hard. So we want to be a museum and much more than this >> than a museum. >> You're beyond definition to some extent. >> We are fantastic. >> Yeah. >> Where to start? Um >> that's a good sign. Um I think one of the things that Elizabeth highlighted before was the um importance of um identifying what is a priority and what to measure. So one of the things that uh intuitively we try to do in these um programs is to um have different layers of uh research around the impact. They are initiatives that literally change people's lives and that's tangible, visible, measurable. also the scientists that work with us because we have teams of scientists that across Europe have been for example exploring which dance practices are more impactful and uh a fantastic Lithuanian um neuroscient recently um confirmed that improvisationbased practices boost the neuroplasticities more than copying an existing choreography. So you you you source the information from different perspective and with a multid-disciplinary approach you try to build um evidence and um measurements or um narrations around what what you bring into a museum and how a museum can can somehow um host make blossom some of these initiatives. Um so first of all the uh the choice on what to focus. For example in future move we have uh a team that is um studying the development of soft skills that the teenagers will uh uh go through uh throughout the sessions that we do. Um at the same time we are in dialogue with the museums around how is their perception uh when new narratives are built by young people about their historical works, their collection and sometimes they clash with what you can provide as an institution. Um, what is the impact on the people that work in the museum when they have suddenly, you know, some some music and techno music sometimes in a or the reenactment of a rave party in inside an historical um building. Um, so yeah, it's a learning process. The other thing is that because it's such immediate um and so um storytelling in a way uh when we come to the impacts a lot of institutions come and approach us and say oh can we do it in our museum and then the conversation starts how long are you open to stay committed to this initiative it's not a tick in the box action how can we um guarantee that artistic level of the practice because when you start to move across countries and areas, you need to source artists that have the tools, the knowledge that go through a common training to understand the different layers that are behind the uh conduction of an experience. So there's scientific knowledge, artistic knowledge and um and many many other tools. Um there's also the topic of sustainability of course because as I said we try to engage organizations institutions in uh in a collective journey. So again to bring an institution to work collectively with other small organizations other forms of organizations is not always easy but when it comes to happen it's fantastic. >> Great. So in a sense your practice is also about interpreting artworks. Did I did I get it? It's a yes and no. It's a different perspective. It is it is about uh taking inspiration from what is available in a space and of course a museum is a fantastic playground and uh it can trigger imagination and build imaginaries and through those images and imaginaries we trigger movement. So the miracle of seeing a person that could not lift an arm uh because of health condition happens all the times. Suddenly they become one of the images that are offered in the space and their body reacts in a unexpected way. Doctors always get surprised and they say oh we should diagnose heart attacks here when we use you know loud and upbeat music. and suddenly there's a collective dimension that supports the individual experience that's another layer of uh of what we do. So it is reinterpreting what it is available in a in a museum but it's also working together to build new meanings for what is held in a museum. very interesting sen challenges as a national institution there's >> um there's a lot uh I think definitely one of the biggest ones that I find is um while we all obviously have umbrella strategic objectives for me as head of education and public programming a priority may not align directly with someone else's remmit or responsibility and we are people first in education and learning and engage engagement and I know my presentation really focused on that but that is because that is my area but also I would say within the national cultural institutions in Ireland and I see some colleagues uh from other ones here today um when we talk about a culture of care when we're looking at health and well-being when we're looking at these initiatives that is where it sits it tends to sit within education what we're all trying to do is stop that just being the case that it doesn't just sit within education in the past also for example EDI or access would have been considered uh the domain of education we're trying to push that out to change the culture of the museum um that is a challenge because there's only so many resources there's only so many hours in the day and I think it's about allowing people to be experts in their field and showing how it can enhance and benefit what they're doing we have a wonderful example from um when we ran our um our pilot program for the art psychotherapy in the museum, the cultural art psychotherapy, we worked with um women in domestic violence center. And when we first proposed it, there were many questions. Is this the role of the National Gallery of Ireland? Why why would we be working in this way? and genuine concern and I absolutely recognize that because there is a fear because you have to be able care for you have to honor your agreement and we needed to be able ensure that we could keep these people safe that we could protect their identities that we would deliver as you say through to the end. It can't be lip service. It has to mean something and it has to mean something throughout the institution and the it it took time for that to happen. So everything is slow like very slow and especially in old historical institutions it's going to be slow but the reward is fantastic when you see it come together a huge moment for us was that um Andrea our art psychotherapist brought the expertise that we don't have and that came up this morning as well in terms of museums uh working outside of the museum sector you know working with uh healthcare providers with social workers And Andrea actually was a social worker before she became uh an art psychotherapist. And my colleague Bina that works with me is a psychotherapist in has her own private clinical practice but also is in works in education in the museum. So these are unusual things to have that you should lean right into. Uh I'm a qualified secondary school teacher in art. So I lean into that as well. And you we we pulled expertise but it gave a robust space and that gave confidence and we did it as a pilot. And from the pilot, we emerged something that could not be argued with in terms of its value. The strength of the pilot and the word of mouth that came from that and the interest from the public, from um health care practitioners, service providers, frontline service providers, which in Ireland are always struggling and I'm sure it's the same everywhere else. There's never enough money. Uh we had the thing this morning where if hospitals are going to keep going, we have to think of other ways to work. we are able provide a service that some of our frontline services simply can't. It is incredible to me that a domestic violence um service doesn't have the capacity to provide therapy or therapeutic initiatives. They just don't. They are keeping the lights on and keeping people safe. So for us also as a civic institution, public servants delivering a public service, it's a very different space, but there's no reason why it can't happen and it has. So the the struggle is kind of getting it over the line in the first instance and then accepting that what my belief is the most important thing is not always going to line up with somebody else's but then maybe demonstrating very clearly um why things should happen and then also it is incredible to meet other colleagues because one thing I should say is since we began the research for the publication which we are doing with the learning and engagement um working group for Nemo uh We thought we were quite isolated and then you dig and dig and we're not. But what is very visible often times in museums unless they are wonderful spaces where I suppose the human um experience is front and center they're not as visible. So this work is happening and has been happening in much more places than we realized but it's not visible because what is being communicated by museums a lot of the time um uh is not necessarily a balance of people and objects. It may be objects heavy or it may be that that's where the research is and we're trying to create a shift now in that and ripple and lead to a bigger culture of care. You know, >> very interesting. You inspired my next question because you're working with young adults and as most of us know here that's a tough category to engage with. Yes, I'm hearing a >> quite quite some consensus coming up from the audience. And what is your experience bringing young adults into a museum? And perhaps you might wish to add Mia and Senate. >> Well um acknowledge that they are autonomous >> uh human beings um trying to bring uh people that facilitate the dance that could be close to their age. Uh Anna is here. She's going to lead one practice tomorrow. >> There's Anna over there. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, um, one of the things that we didn't say in the video yet that is coming is that they will start to organize some guided tours in the museum and it's going to be their own um, design, their own choice of which artworks they want to share with others and so on. So again making them feel that the museum has a civic uh identity and making the museum uh realizing and and questioning what is the civic uh role in these days when we're facing the fact that you know after covid wars depression is uh going everywhere um so and the British medical journal on 14th of February 2024 changed our life because they said the physical practice to do when you're depressed is called dance. So suddenly we had you know a paper that we could bring everywhere and >> and convince people about that. >> It helped a lot to reach them because uh there's a lot of uh stigma there's a lot of uh um concerns around um also being part of groups that deal with these topics. But the fact of creating a mixed group in all the programs that we did for Parkinson's, for cancer and for depression helps a lot. You're never asked when you come to the museum, do you have any pathologist? I mean the the the people that lead the practice, the artistic practice know how to identify some things. Of course, there's uh uh dialogues with um some doctors that may send uh some of the participants, but there's always this situation that really builds solidarity, mutual understanding, active listening. This is what you encounter in a dance practice basically. So yeah, um sharing agency, um making them feel that a museum is something that they can own. Uh it's so important and that's what creates the legacy of these programs. >> Yeah. >> And not just with young people I think. Yeah. >> I mean uh when you you know when you talk about problems as well I showed you where Dublin is which is this or not where Dublin is sorry where the National Gallery is within Dublin and it is in a very affluent part of the city but you know two streets over is an area of real socio economic deprivation. And so we have people who could be in the gallery in two seconds but they don't come because they don't think it's for them. And again this program has broken down some of those barriers. It was always an ambition where people would gain confidence in their own autonomy coming to the institution once they completed the program. um where they felt safe enough themselves that then they may come independently or with their children but also that it could start through word of mouth and other people thinking oh maybe that can be somewhere I would like to go or that can be somewhere I trust but it's built slowly and similarly with uh the young people we work with in the gallery that autonomy is hugely important um it's just it's it's wonderful to have these spaces and yesterday I visited some incredible spaces here too and even but even if you're in a in in a situation where it's open seven days a week and it's free of charge. There are always going to be people who need a little bit more help and then obviously decide whether we want to come or not. But I think creating something magic for different uh different audiences, different opportunities and just different ways of thinking about health and how we live our lives is really important and museums can do that. they can lead the way in doing that and take us away from which is really important some of the much darker conversations that are happening you know not just you know across the globe at the moment and I I I think that's where we can hold on to what it is to be human actually and have you know real moments shared experiences in society and I'm sure that happens absolutely with your two institutions >> Mia would you like to add to that >> yeah I was thinking about um um our guests our um people who who visited the museum but also our studio the creative part. Um we never ask them uh about diagnosis because as I was saying that we would want to get rid of the taboos but um in the exhibitions and in the museum but actually we never ask about diagnosis and never speak about diagnosis or treatment. So instead um just an example Maria as you um met in the video uh she will take um the people the the ones who visited wanted to work with us uh in the exhibition or in the creative part. She will bring them along in the exhibition and they will have um a talk about still not diagnosis or why are you coming here and what do you want but uh about the art uh pieces. So um suddenly the art is getting you know like a mirror. So they're they're talking about the art, but M Maria, she will um you know get some she'll get to learn the person she's uh talking with. So we always use the art as a um third part of our work. >> Okay. uh speaking into it, uh taking parts out of it, uh all always um um bringing the the art into our uh kind of work and um yeah, I think uh it also meant a lot that you know the people who visit us coming for u working at the the creative part uh they're not walking into a special activity um uh established from the uh healthc care. uh they're walking into a culture institution into a museum and it is um it's a different >> yes >> you know so it's not a special it's not what they meet so often in their life doctors or respectful of course but doctors p treatment persons uh because they're walking into a culture institution is makes a lot of difference to them psychologically So, so it's also important >> to be an institution for culture. >> Yes. >> In this area. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. I'm sure there are a lot of questions already coming up. I I've got one last question for you. Um in short and then we'll open the floor to to the audience. And my question is this. I mean if museums really want to embed collective care within their know in the practice what is that one piece of advice that you can give them based on your project your experience that one piece of advice >> Mia >> sorry >> okay >> yes >> if museums want to go your way you know they get inspired by your project what is that one piece of advice that you will give them to get there in the future there. >> Oh, it's a hard one. >> A hard one. Okay. >> You probably asked some some some questions, you know, to this effect. What needs to be done? What do they need to do? >> Um, they need to be um what do you call when um they need to strive. >> Okay. Strive in the sense of struggle or be persistent. >> But they really want to do it, you know. They need to be convinced. >> Yeah. And they need to be uh to really have a good working team uh around you. >> Okay. >> Uh with the same spirit. Uh they need to be open-minded and um have a look at um the next person, your surroundings, you know, all the the people that you mixed with. um have a good look at the the world surrounding you and um ask yourself uh what can we do here um to meet people who they are because I I believe that this is the glue this is the starting point is the glue you mentioned >> the glue yeah um seeing people and um listen to them and uh ask yourself what kind of museum would I like to be how do I meet the world outside in the best way >> I would suggest to identify an action and to practice it together. So at all levels all the staff try to practice something together to understand what cares mean beyond intellectual and um mental trips uh but really put your body in the action uh collectively and probably you will understand a lot. Okay, it >> I I agree with both of those and especially uh so I'll stop but almost like practice what you're preaching and I meant to say >> I think that's really important that we we share those experiences within our institutions for me fundamentally it is about coming back to what it is to be a civic institution because that for us that is what we are we are a civic institution and I come back to that time and time again but the best way is to learn from each other also and to put yourself in it and for example a colleague a curator at the gallery did one of the uh sort of taster sessions that um our art psychotherapist run ran and bravely the uh Andrea our art psychotherapist went to that curator's exhibition uh for this part of the program and the curator told me herself I didn't think there was anything I didn't know about that that's my exhibition that's my show I've put it other and then after the session said I saw things I hadn't seen >> and experienced it in a different way and I was so grateful to her for giving us her time for being part of it because she also now understands that that program can be super relevant not just in terms of obviously just the therapeutic service but also seeing the gallery in a different way and it again can bring it back to that civic responsibility in terms of who we're serving and how >> great I'm sure there are questions questions. Yes, quite a few h raised hands mics. Thank you, Margarita and Maren. >> Okay, first question. Claire >> um Claire Bam Arts Engage podcast. I can't see you all, but I'll peer around. Yeah, there. >> So, thanks to all of the panelists for um talking about their work. Super interesting. I have so many questions. I'll limit it to one. Um, so Chenade, you you used the phrase parachute programming, which I thought was um really good. Uh, could you perhaps all of you um respond to how you um I'm losing my words, maybe it's nearly lunchtime. How you um how you ensure that you don't use parachute programming, that idea of going in, delivering, and then disappearing. How do you ensure that this process is perhaps ethical and sustainable? >> Yeah, that's a question. >> Um, so I'm very fortunate in that uh there are certain things I can put in place that unless we had a complete uh you know overhaul of our current country as it is, we're pretty secure. We're funded by the state. So the the gallery is funded by the state and then we also obviously seek um you know external funding uh corporate partnerships etc. >> But what we this was what I meant about us making a decision collectively within the education department which also then had to be supported by senior management and the director of the institution is that this is a direction we're going to go. So if we only have this much funding we'll guarantee that this is going to happen anyway. this is how we're going to do it. So that we're not going into a community and then saying actually we don't have the money to go any further with this. Um on a base level even if we have external funding for a project we will find a way then to make that part of our core program. Again I'm very fortunate as another colleague reminded me only a couple of weeks ago because we have this core um public fund to come back to. However, within the staff then within my team, we always operate on the basis that while we might be doing something at a higher level with lots of money, if some of the resources are pulled, we will strive to still deliver it, although we may have to pay it back. So, it has I suppose the the best way we do that within my institution and with my team is that we all have to collectively agree that that is going to be the direction we're going in because otherwise if we're all trying to achieve different things, it's never going to happen. And collectively if we agree that well-being or health or care or that uh prioritizing that for a significant period of time until it becomes embedded in the fabric of the work itself that's how we negate that happening at least um and also I would say another thing that we've done is a program might begin with one person a community outreach program for children in a particular area um that program might finish but actually then there's an opportunity for it to become part of an afterchool program or it can lead into the parents participating in a program that we run for adults for example. So we try also to I suppose prop up the work we're doing through our other areas even though the audience remit may appear to sit with one person in the first instance there's capacity then for it to go out further and it comes back to the idea of trying to really create um uh autonomy for people where they feel confident and welcome coming to the institution independently themselves also then so there's layers you can have something that's very in-depth takes a huge amount of time and budget But out of that program can be something that's quite light touch then and that also prevents parachute programming happening. Um that's from my side. >> Interesting. There's another question. Yeah. >> Hello. My name is Tio Kristoff and I have question. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Hello. I have question about because you talked on different approaches of what programs did you uh deliver and my question is how do you choose the targets the target people you're going to deliver and my question is for all of you but especially for Chenid because uh as a national museum you said and I'm also working in a national museum and it's for everybody but when you're doing a program you should narrow it down to a certain group And how do you choose which group you are going to do a program for? Thank you. >> Thank you. Um so I suppose a lot of it in terms of a specific program like this one, the art psychotherapy um program. This is where we are working with partners in the first instance and then based on people coming to us who want to deliver it or us reaching out. So we have a core program. We program what we call cradle to grave. So we have programs from everything from babies that are not yet walking right up to kind of um later stages of life or uh even hospice care and everything in between. And that core program runs consistently. Sometimes there are peaks and troughs but that is the way we try to cater for everybody. So in that program we try to be as inclusive as possible and that tends to be uh very considered but slightly lighter touch when it comes to a program like this. So for example the reason we worked in the first instance with the domestic violence services is that these conversations had already started beginning and then um our colleague Andrea uh the art psychotherapist had also had a relationship. So there was a position of trust with which to build from with that particular service provider. When we completed the pilot program, we had a launch at the gallery where we shared a short film about the project and I interviewed the three key project participants. So the director of services from the domestic violence center, uh Andrea, our art psychotherapist and my colleague Bina who managed the program um who is education manager for special projects. On the basis of that event, we then had an outpouring of requests from other frontline services, um, community organizations, healthcare providers where they were interested then in participating in this program. So, at the moment, we're in a situation of supply and demand. >> If we were to run it seven days a week, we could provide a service seven days a week. That is the interest in this program. We don't have the resources to do that and then it gets difficult. So what we what we try to do then is access or assess who will be capable of committing to the program also because a major thing for us is not just participants are interested but that the the organization or the service providers can support it throughout also. So they may come and do some training with us in the first instance. We need to know that they're very comfortable referring their clients or their service users to us. Um and so we have a waiting list at the moment which uh we were only talking about the other day of organizations and um uh I suppose service users that want to participate in that program. But there are other ways as well. So we may instead provide training for example for the organization leaders as opposed to just the participants which is a way in lie of participating in the program in uh I suppose beginning the conversation around what cultural arts psychotherapy will be so that their service users can understand it a little before they come to us while there is a delay. Um honestly it's difficult to do and what tends to happen is it's in order of who is available for x amount of time what dates will work with certain people and then also sometimes where it seems to be the pressing need maybe because as I said I can't think of anyone that this isn't a value for in the same vein that you know at the moment it's young people but as you said there's any any audience can engage you know >> absolutely would you like to add to >> yeah how do you prioritize >> I think the question was also addressed to >> to the whole panel. Oh, >> please. >> There are also more questions. >> Yes, I can imagine. >> Hello and thank you so much for um the contribution during the panel today. Um I'm Sophia Vidman. I'm from Museum Booster and uh we manage a major applied research project called Future Museum where well-being is going to be one of the major focus areas in the next two years. And the question that all of our participants have is how do you measure the impact concrete impact of your programs in order that they can be justified and funded by insurance companies. Um also referring back to Elizabeth how measuring what you prioritize. So do you use any kind of psychiatric measurement like bag depression inventory to monitor the continuous progress and do you also attend the psychiatric conferences to integrate museums into their landscape? >> That's an interesting question. Would you like to go first? >> Uh yes, I can start. Um we realized soon that some of the brain health topics that we were dealing with through dance could not be measured with the um standard protocols that the scientific community is applying. So there's a whole movement led by different scientists from different universities across Europe. There are people in their 30s and 40s that start to redefine those protocols and likely they are engaging artists and people that study and measure the social impact in their new designs and studies. Uh this is a new movement. uh they realized that they could not rely on past uh structured protocols and um there's also an approach that is more and more um appearing which is not to consider the individual and the individual pathology but to look at the collectiveness around a person with Parkinson's with cancer with depression so we're working together and this again is why we work with mixed groups because sometimes you may have a person with Parkinson's that come with other people that don't have Parkinson's but together they're going through a process of um support or healing or um social engagement. Um so again the multiddisciplinary approach seems to be very very relevant in the context of Parkinson's. There's one of the most known um scientists that have developed a multi-disiplinary approach. It's called Baz Bloom is based in the Netherlands and he's starting now to um scientifically uh design a new format of collections of storytelling because he says that that's an an important evidence the scientific community have always not considered. So there's there's a there's new waves of understanding. So I would imagine that if a museum would engage in these um journeys, it could be very relevant and important because of what your voices could bring in this path. >> Yeah. about um it is talking about challenges. It is a challenge also for us to um get it into a kind of scientific um project because uh we can of course we have been trying to measure it um in a small scale just inside the house. uh you know we are asking people before they um starting working at the at our place and the with the creative things uh how do you feel today and they can make some marks and when they go home again we ask them how how do we feel now in a way so we can of course measure the difference um but not uh not in a scientific way. So it's still waiting for us to be uh um to be done actually. Uh we can every day we watch people growing um and uh every month uh we um we we get more and more people uh coming and visiting us uh and using our uh uh creative parts and uh studios and the projects. But but it's still it is a a hard um area to measure um the stuff. So we can listen to people what they say when they are coming back or writing uh it for us but um it's not in a scientific um way still. >> Okay. Would you like to add to that or perhaps we take another question? Yeah. >> Thank you. Uh my name is Roland. I'm currently from Germany I would say. uh spent most of my life uh working in museums without museum objects but full of real people. Um but when I I lived about 2 years ago in Denmark and I had an aha alipis as we called it in Germany there was an article published in the Danish newspapers the national newspaper say nobody's normal we all are patients and we have research to prove it they had research to prove it this was a scientific article saying 80% of the people in Denmark have recently either been diagnosed have been using medicines or whatsoever It's not normal to be normal. The norm is to be a patient if you want to call it that way. So >> what is normalness? I got >> Thank you so much for that reflection. >> Hi, my name is Cena. Uh I have a question probably especially for you Chenade. Uh it's about the the line of arguments you can use as a museum director if you want to implement projects like the one you have with with the victims of uh of vi domestic abuse and etc. Because many times uh everybody would say that that's a nice agenda but what does it have to do with a museum and how does it what is why is that relevant in a museum context? Couldn't it be everywhere else? So what is it specifically you would use as a line of arguments for saying how do you connect this with the art or the objects cultural heritage etc. Um, so I would say for uh in particular I I'll answer I'll answer as well as I can but to really give context to this project we have it fully scoped on the gallery website with the film and a full report and just in line in relation to kind of measuring for the pilot program we did we employed an external evaluator which was crucial because it wasn't just me then saying look you know see what's happening. we had this very well-informed document with you know looking at things like social uh return on investment and also looking at other measures because as institutions were constantly asked how many people and what did it cost and uh for me it's really difficult to move away from that because I would I mean my background is visual art practice and education and storytelling and the qualitative is where I live but what I'm asked for is what are the KPIs and what's going to happen and so this was never going to be about big numbers. It isn't going to generate revenue at all. Uh it is a risk in terms of if you're if you're looking at what a risk is, it it is a risk to run this program in the first instance. But we came back always to the fact that we are a civic institution. And just to say uh it's also I feel for any of us in terms of leaning into opportunity and the reason why my presentation spoke to how I got to this point is because it didn't spring out of nowhere. We were a long time building trust not just with the communities we worked with but also within the institution that my uh the director of collections and research who is my own boss and then the director of the institution are in a position now where they trust us to deliver the programs and so I leaned into that but also for the initial pilot program we ran we had a phenomenal exhibition of an incredible um uh artist Levvenia Fontana uh on her work >> point of departure And that was the point of departure where we looked at this phenomenal woman who lived in the 1600s but had 11 surviving children and a incredible artistic career. >> And we looked at the barriers that she faced even though she had this incredibly successful career and her husband stayed at home with the children which I still can't get my head around. She had a marriage contract everything. I'm like 2025 that'd be great. Never mind 1600s bolognia. But uh she was exceptional and we decided if we were going to do something we wanted to make it for women and we wanted to make it about empowering vulnerable women and then serendipitously we had had this conversation with this exceptional art psychotherapist. So everything came together but we we funded that initially from Bank of America because they were they were sponsoring the exhib or they were funding the exhibition and they had a separate funding pot we could apply for and it was put to us. We feel you could pay it back. we feel it could reduce it and we we stood our ground and said if we're going to do this we need this amount of funding and we have to do it this way and I think we led with conviction but I do think also our track record to that point really helped us so that our director also had the confidence to go to the board or speak to the department to say we believe this can happen and when it was delivered it has now led to the conviction that yes we should continue this work and we can in confidence continue this work and actually what has happened is it has achieved so many other objectives for the gallery because it is absolutely addressing discrimination. It is the first time working through this program is the first time we've had a real conversation about class in the institution which we simply haven't had before and it has brought people to the gallery that just have never come. Um and so it started with Levvenia Fontana and women and grew into this art psychotherapy program which is now core at the institution but is changing slowly is changing how we think so that's also helping the argument because not just I am starting to think well why not my colleague says all the time we care for objects we can care for people these two things can be true you know >> no problem >> great more questions coming up. >> Yeah, over here. Uh, thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience. So, I'm Donna. I'm with the National Museum of Ireland. So, I know Chenade. Hi. >> Hi. Hi. >> We can see you. >> Oh, there you are. >> Um, but yeah, my question's open to anyone who'd like to speak to it. Um, we're talking about kind of creating a culture of care and how we're doing this in our outreach and engagement work and how we connect with communities. Um, but I always think the staff um and those working in our organizations, we're also a community as well. Um, and we need to be kind of thinking about how we create a culture of care amongst each other as well. Um, and I think this can actually be really formative to how we connect with communities in general. Um, so I know we do often have kind of limited resources and that's something we're very aware of. Um, and we shouldn't be expecting staff to kind of be providing for all of the support needs for each other as well. I'm aware of that. But I do think there's things that we can do to kind of build a culture of care in our teams, whether that's two people or 100 people. Um, so I'm wondering, do you have experience of any kind of meaningful strategies or initiatives that kind of created a culture of care amongst staff or amongst peers within the organization? So yeah, thank you. >> Would you like to go first? >> Oh well, yeah, thank thank you for the question. Well, I think um an important starting point could be uh asking questions. >> Asking questions. >> Yeah. Because um relevant questions, you know, which um I think everyone would be thinking about. for example, asking the questions um who am I, who are we, where do we come from? So this re kind of relevance uh is something that that um everyone could relate to. So if you're young, if you're an adult, uh if you are in a staff, uh so asking questions which is relevant for you uh relevant um to this uh world we are living in um for the future for example. So I think a good starting point would be asking questions um to get started >> started. Anybody else would like to get to that? I would suggest a 45 minute session every Wednesday morning where you dance together in the gallery. Just that. >> Yeah, I'm actually going to write that down >> and bring it home. Um, >> you have fabulous artists in Ireland. So, you know, and everywhere. So, >> I think it's a brilliant suggestion to dance. Uh, I think I'm really Don, I can't see it, but I I heard you. I'm really glad you Oh, hi. I'm really glad you brought it up. was in my notes, but I couldn't see them on the slideshow because it's really important to be honest as well because >> um I'm wrecked and even, you know, carving out the time to come here was huge. Uh committing to the programs we commit to you, you can't work, you can't talk about care and vulnerable people and kind of collective care in any kind of flippant way. If you're committing to it, you have to commit to it completely. But as a member of staff then not just me but the whole team I work with. That's huge. That's a lot of pressure. You're carrying you're you're acutely aware at all times of the vulnerability of the people you're working with and you are responsible for them. And so it it's a lot. And I would say as well that once you start doing these programs anything that you think the amount of time we've allocated will triple 100%. Um there's no way on earth in my experience that you can say I'm going to prioritize this research and I'm going to carve it out because all the other stuff keeps happening. So it ends up being on top of instead of instead of and I don't have a hard and fast answer, but the thing that I'm trying to do all the time is just be really honest about it and be open about it and not pretend that it's clean. It's actually a lot of the work we're doing is messy sometimes because it takes a huge commitment and we are in old institutions where well in the gallery for example you know even the majority of artists are not living artists it's a lot of um historical artists and then objects are safer in some ways not all the time but you know whereas if you're dealing with a child or an adult or whoever and they are vulnerable and you have a commitment to them as we should as a civic institution, but absolutely that commitment has to be to ourselves as well. Um, and it's something I'm trying to figure out because honestly the more we do this work the more challenging it is I think. Uh, so if anyone has a strategy or solution, I'd be really interested. >> We take the last two questions. >> Yes. >> Dance definitely. >> Sophia Tidu from uh from the Greek Ministry of Culture. Thank you all three uh for your wonderful examples of socially based practice and for valuing collective care as a priority. My question to all of you is how has this work that you've been doing affected you personally and professionally and has this work in the intersection of art and healthcare transformed you in any way and what kind of impact does it have on your own health and well-being and your team's health and well-being? Thanks. >> I'd ask the pen to be brief so that we can take one other question. Mia, whoever. Yeah, Roberto. Um, I think it really helped to question what kind of meanings we build with what we do in society and at the current time how we can still in our environments build spaces where people can meet as humans beside the polarization, divisions, conflicts and uh proliferations of enemies uh around us. These are the questions that I take from these projects. Yeah, >> I think that's wonderful. >> It sorry for me it's reminds me what it is to be human all the time and that that is what ideally we should try and focus on and start from that point of supporting each other and using our civic spaces to enhance uh society and not uh tear it down. But also it has opened my eyes to so many uh issues in society in Ireland that I knew a little about but not enough about. Um but that has a real impact. You don't just you know switch off uh as we had in the first session. You it doesn't just do that. >> Yeah. But um I would say that it gives completely new energy you know to uh to look to experience that people are growing. uh they are we we're doing something good for other people when we can watch them change in a good way and um help them uh on their path for the future. Uh then it gives us a new energy for our daily work and uh we said yes uh things are functioning and we are um doing a a bit a little difference in in this world. >> One last question. Hi, thank you very much to all of you and Palamos from Spain, Madrid from National Museum of the Aquatic Arts, also a civic museum funded by state. So quite a tight budget and we've been doing for a nowadays 15 years several projects with people in in risk of exclusion. But still I have the the feeling that not not a fall not a fall of our staff we have around 40 50 people including the gallery people and I am very happy to see that many of us have the same feeling of how we evaluate it to convince to explain to justify that's why I signed up to the to the workshop this the one because it was difficult to to choose the workshops. But the one the workshop uh this afternoon and in evaluating uh because I only two times we had the the the budget to have an external evaluator which is well but what if you don't have it? We've been doing it very homemade and and also my colleagues they are they say oh oh it's very nice it's very cute you did it well but I I don't think think I think that most more of the times they say oh this is palama stuff they not feel engaged totally engaged so all the things come first and this not become a priority although my my aim this all the time and that this is mainstream. Thank you very much. >> Reactions to that? >> Sorry, I'm not quite sure about what I think. >> It was more of a reflection. I understand. >> It's more than a reflection. >> It was more of a reflection. Yeah. >> Question started. >> Yeah. Okay. In one sentence, please. >> Yes. Thank you. Um I would suggest to study uh publications where there is uh different forms of evaluation and maybe see if something can inspire you. There there's quite a lot uh I talk about the dancing. There's quite a lot of that because they have less supports than museums I guess. Um so maybe have a look. I can share with you more uh information later. Or perhaps your museum won't allocate the money for an external evaluator, but perhaps they would commit to a member of staff attending training in some form of more socially engaged evaluation and that may be a way then for it to to stay within the organization. It doesn't lighten the workload. uh so you know but it it might be an opport it might be something else you can do or to collaborate with a PhD student or somebody who is looking for something to evaluate and you give it to them and then maybe it's more likely that it can happen in that way >> or you could yeah sorry and or you could invite for a dialogue you know it's um to invite the local area for a dialogue invite them into yourself and be a kind of as it we use we should be very democratic You know, so even when you feel you are heard, you're listened to, uh it's a it's also an a way of inviting people and they have listen to what they really want or what is going on their minds um and then try to switch a bit in your program maybe. >> So that's it. These were our three seeds from the present. I'm sure that you have many more questions and that could be the right opportunity to catch up over lunch break. But thank you so much and I'm sure that was inspiring and very useful. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thanks Andrea.