NEMO European Museum Conference 2025 | Deep dive: Rethinking care in trauma-informed museums

Hello. Um, I hope you all had a great lunch and um, a great break and we are here for a session which is a little bit different than the ones we had so far. >> My name is Pawina Floranovich. I'm an member of the board of Nemo and I have a great honor to be moderating um this afternoon's um panel. And so far we talked a lot of well-being that many of us understand or perhaps misunderstand as the need to be happy. Personally, I strongly opposed to this concept that we must be happy. I think that it can actually cause a lot of um uh mental um misunderstanding as many people who do not feel 100% happy think that something might be wrong with them. But there is another side of that coin. Those really traumatized who seek help also in museum. And this trauma might have different origins or causes be individual or collective. So, our guests today are Jolene Posthumus um from the Netherlands, trauma therapies and mindfulness consultant for museums. And Jo Jolene was um also appointed the first program manager of mental health in the um 2022 EMIA winner u museum of the mind and she also is the project leader and and runs the museum um art museum on prescription project. So welcome here today. And our second guests working as a as a duet are Marina Bohush and Yuri Horpinich. Um both from the um National Museum of the History of Ukraine in the Second World War. Marina is a senior research officer and acting head of department for exposition exhibition work and Yuri is the deputy um of director general. Welcome. Before I give you the floor, I would like to say that this session is personally very important to me because I come from Poland and um so far um based on the studies, we are the most traumatized society in Europe still due to the trauma of the Second World War. um study from about 10 years ago showed that up to 38% of then living um World War II survivors in Poland have PTSD symptoms while in other European countries um it usually is no more than 2%. So and this is also an intergenerational trauma that goes on to successive generations. Actually today there is another conference opening in Warso Poland in the Museum of the History of Poland entitled um country of prolonged grief. So we are very much into the topic that we will be discussing today and um many of our museums which are also memorials landmarks of the most horrific moments in 20th century his of 20th century history and which is the result of the two totalitarian regimes that we experience deal with this topic of on daily basis. So I would like to invite Jolene to give us a scientific background on what trauma actually is, how and um perhaps why to deal with it, why it is it so important and how can museums sign up in this process and help in the healing. Please, the floor is yours. >> Thank you so much. I'm hoping that my clicker is working. Good to rem meet everybody at the beginning of this day and now uh coming to the close of this day and I want to start by giving you the same invitation as I did this morning to take care as best as you can for yourself especially now diving into trauma maybe some personal relationality to that so I go back to my first slide yes so when we talk about trauma we don't per se talk about the events that is happening happening. Trauma has much more to do with the process that is happening in our own body. The moment that we experience an event and our body was not able to process that properly, it can leave marks in the body that causes suffering maybe for one lifetime or several lifetimes as you have mentioned and those marks can be triggered at any point which make us come into a fight, fight or freed modes. So there are various types of trauma. You can talk about war trauma. We can talk about sexual trauma, interpersonal and collective trauma. And it's maybe good to have an understanding of the trauma can arise in two ways. It's either something happening too fast, too sudden or lasted too long which you could not cope or it was the absence of something there, something that made you feel safe, made you feel heard and seen or was supporting for you at that moment. the moment that we have absence when we experience this horrific moment. This also can um involve trauma. We know at least 70% of all people worldwide will at least experience one traumatic event in our lifetime. So most likely one of these days they will step into our art and gallery spaces and memorial center. So how can we respise respond wisely and skillfully to that? In my work, what I do is always want to come back into something that we everybody can relate to, to come back to sort of a common ground, something common humanity where we can relate to. And talking about trauma, this might be our window of tolerance. When we talk about mental health and our well-being, it has, like you have said, not so much to do with are you happy. It has much more to do with our capacity as human beings to having a mindful breather there. Thank you. Thank you so much. So it has much more to do with our capacity as human beings to turn towards both the most painful and difficult things in life and still see the beauty and having the capacity as human being to do both. And living with trauma it's quite the same. It's knowing that at one point you might be triggered again. Can you carry and hold yourself in that moment and still see the glimmers as trauma expert Debdana calls it? Those glimmers that our automatic nervous system sees the smile of somebody else's face or feels the feet on the ground that helps us ground in that moment. So when we talk about mental health, well-being, resilience, building up resilience and trauma growth, it has much to do with that capacity to widening, holding life and all that it will give us and and keeping that sort of balance and we as human beings can do several things in order to widen our capacity as both to balance that capacity. The first three I will come uh back to a little bit later on the talk. But here you see reconnecting with life with others, inhabited language to express yourself, meeting your obstacles and welcoming those moments of awe and joy. Isn't this what museums already do day in day out? Just by opening your doors without doing anything, you're already opening up the space to do this. Art and collection has been doing it since ever we are here. Throughout centuries, throughout religions, throughout cultures, art has the role that literally gives us something that we can turn towards, we can stay near and that can soothe us, that can comfort us, that can make us feel not feel alone. So Ro art already does this and artists do as well. for the people who will visit Arus on Wednesday. This will be your puzzle to look on on the wall. So artists help us to remind it's about having the capacity to see the light and to see the dark. So we have our museums, we have our obstacles, but how do do we turn towards in order to to widen our capacity? That's where I welcome in the mindfulness practice. It's a 25,000y old practice. But in today, it's evidence-based, touched by by uh research. Uh and it's the actual practice of turning towards like your experience this morning towards your inner world, meeting everything that is there, the things that you like, you things that you maybe not so much like about yourself and creating the space to welcome it all. And that practice we can take uh when we step into the world and and when we cultivate this over a longer longer time equinity can grow and equinity is this capacity of of holding a life with a balanced mind and heart. So knowing that it's not very a very big step to coming into a traumainformed museum. So that's what I hope to support museums in doing all museums who want to de delve a bit into how they can welcome their audience in the trauma sensitive way but a little bit more those museums um addressing collective trauma loss and injustice. So I do this for museums um throughout all the layers of the museums consulting resourcing training supervision and like is mentioned this morning what I hope to do is not to add something new that the team has to do but pick those things that we just already do day in day out and by getting a bigger better understanding of trauma to how can we do what we already do with just a little bit more knowledge and wisdom so it not become and an extra task that you have to do tapping into emotional labor doing your work and talking about day in day out about personal stories. I hope this will be something on tomorrow's topics as well. And what I do I create those resources this mindful uh arts interventions with mindfulness in museums. So I worked in the uh psychology care for a long time and what I do is I translate the healthc care intervention into an arts intervention supporting people everybody who steps into into the museum. So the traumainformed meditation I did this morning I did not mention trauma once but it wasn't in traumainformed practice. So, I want to come back a bit to those three things that we do to to find grounding as people. And our senses are an evidence-based way to directly ground ourselves. Our senses help us directly to come out of uh feeling overwhelmed or if we ruminate all the time. And this is the same for trauma. Here you see the amygdala which you might call the brain's alarm system. It gets its information via two ways. A very direct way without our control and a second way which enters some information and this scans all day long. Is there something we need to come into an action? Then then from there we'll go into this fight, flight or freeze mode. And I think we all know last week we saw this lifelike example that alarm systems don't always want work the way that supports us most. I don't say this to be harmful to make fun what happened in the lof. I actually think it is a lifelike experience that we can relate that alarm systems don't always work in the best way that supports us. And this is exactly what happens with trauma. it will trigger. It will do something out of your control. And the most helpful way when somebody immediately goes into feeling overwhelmed or feeling panicked is asking somebody, can you see my face? Can you feel the feet or the floor? Or can you see something here that you like? So our senses are one of the most direct ways to bring somebody back. And museums feast our senses. So to support our visiting facing staff just by giving them that knowledge if they have somebody in the tour and they see them getting a bit of restless it would be just a simple question. Are you still okay? Can you feel your feet? Is there something here you like? So these are some of the ways that we can support our team. The second thing reclaiming your voice reclaiming your agency. one of the most important things in in the trauma healing path both individuals collective. In 2002, I had the pleasure to be welcomed by the amazing Apha Copa sitting here as well uh joining the uh educational seminar u here on Utya. spent one day and Uttoya is the place where Andraik came onto the island in 2011 um did his terrorist act and killed 69 people that day. Here you see the hang set uh which is the place where most people were killed. And they came for six months together with the people that survived that day with the relatives but also with artists and with architects to see how can we reclaim not only personally but how can we support our community with reclaiming our islands. Here you see the hang who sets on the window display. You see the big pillars immediately on on the glass. 69 res representing each person that was killed that day on the island. Surrounding you see 381 poles like a big hug like a big protection wall representing all the survivors of that day. And up when you come up to the island, you come with the ferry, the ferry that Andre Strife took. You see the most beautiful idealic island. It's absolutely beautiful. And you can sense the horrific things that has happened there. And I think it's still one of the most beautiful um uh places I've seen that hold both horrific pain and holds love, holds hope and is now day day in day out to see how they can take that story further into workshops for children and and contributing to this collective healing. One other thing that they did I thought was really inspiring. What we know from people enduring trauma some parts of the brain are not active during those trauma during those events and at that moment our memory shuts off. So we can't literally can't remember everything. And what our minds will do the rest for our lives will try to see if they can find all the puzzle pieces to get our story complete. That's just what we do. It's what we call fragmentation in trauma healing. What they did, they picked something very ordinary from museums creating a timeline. They asked everybody in the community to send in the pictures, all the materials and he created a timeline in the exposition. The trauma therapist came in and they actually helped the people who were there that day but were not able to get the story straight. And just by by collecting everything, it was a full complete story. so they can integrate that and and come into the next healing phase. Your timeline that you put on that wall is an intentionally acknowledgment of a story. So it is supportive for everybody stepping into your museum. Only your timeline is already traumainformed if it's done properly, of course. So to sum up, I will come to a close. I see the time. I'm sorry. I just wanted to say if we have learned anything from trauma healing, we as human beings, we don't heal alone. We fundamentally need somebody else or something else to stay with us to stay with us when we previously were left alone or were alone. Somebody will now will stay with us when we turn towards the pain, when we turn towards suffering. And of course, this can be a person who is a trauma therapist in one situation, but this can also be somebody on the street who will give you a smile. It can be something. It can be nature. It can be animals. It can be your stuffed animals. It can be your art. It can be your museum and your collections. Your museum matter. Your objects and collections matter. You matter in trauma healing. Thank you. >> Thank you. That's a lot of food for thought. >> I know too much. I'm sorry. >> And uh now it's time for our guest from Ukraine um who will um give us an overview of the massive transformation transition the museum had to go through since um 2022 um and since the full Russian scale. um invasion on Ukraine started among other things. What you is that you brought art therapy and museum therapy to another level inviting veterans, defense forces, um staff and their families to your museum. So please, the floor is yours. Present your case. >> Thank you very much. Uh I try to be briefly because I understand that everyone is tired now. uh our presentation is in run. Now I want to show uh some activities uh which we have done and u to be briefly we started uh on the beginning of this year but idea was born in August 2024 when me and Marina like a creators of one of our exhibition war perspective decide to make uh the parallel program for uh our exhibition And in uh after the months uh I met one of uh um one of chiefs of police u our police ministry and uh he asked me to if there guys can go go to our museum and to see um exhibition but uh I propose him maybe it will be better to see exhibition and to make some uh some activities. is and uh to make some rehabilitation for these guys because we understand that we civilians understand that it's very hard to be uh on the war to be the part of this war. So uh we call our presentation and our activities from memory to recovery the role of the war museum in supporting war affected communities. So uh our first steps were in January as I told previously uh and we our pilot program rehabilitation through the culture. There was it was our first group and it was very touching because uh we have two sessions with psychologists of uh police department and they told that not it not allowed to talk about war about weapons about that events. uh they were with psychologists and we were enormous a lot because uh it was our first experience and it was uh we don't know how how it how it runs how to speak with those people uh we have I have and Marina and all Ukrainians have a lot of relatives uh friends who are on the front lines but uh when you see people who were wounded or suffering from these activities It is it's it was very difficult and our first uh master class was like uh um it was painting with uh with uh this group of guys and also excursion like uh to change some activities. And uh when when we met them in in on on in our museum, the first thing they asked if we we have seen the tanks over there on the hill and can we can we move there to to see them to touch them to find out some information and and we understand that everything will be fine and we start to work with them. the on our uh on our exhibition war inversive perspective. We have a lot of uh modern artists and they are uh and they one of them Maria Lubinska was the first person who uh take part in this master class because her um husband his veteran. He was wounded near the during the cave operation in 2022 and he was on also in on rehabilitation and she uh understand how to work with such a people and it was uh our first uh successful experience. Uh our aim is to help people and communities to re connect with a after trauma and uh you can see different groups and this guy on the on the photo with the phones in Olivia Olive jacket. He was uh also one of the first groups. His name is Rouslan and he's from Donetsk region. He's police officer and he from uh start of full-scale invasion he became the part of our army and he was wounded in Donetsk region in 2024 and uh in few months he uh when he uh get well he return as a part of uh our police ministry with a group and he became became uh his role is like assistant of of me of ministry, one of the generals uh to make deal to work with veterans and it was amazing because he was uh the brightest person in that group. All of them were very bright and very positive. It was uh they the most of them are most more positive than regular people and and he was very funny. He he joke every every time he asked questions. He was very active. And when he returned, it was the best moment in my life when he returned with this group on the first photo. He was like uh the the uh the assistant. He was like creator of this group in in his new job. Our mission to support phys physiological, emotional, social value basis, recovery through culture, art and the museum space. And on the first uh picture on the photo, you can see our exhibition war inversive perspective. It was uh created in 2024 as I mentioned before. And uh the next one is a space where we work with uh those group was uh national guard and different units of uh police uh police ministry. They are serving also in army and uh it was maybe third or or fourth uh our art therapy session and uh there was one person you can see it on the background. He was just sitting on the chair doing doing nothing and he I saw that he was in depression. He was very depressed. I asked him maybe he want to paint something or some not on the topic but something else. He said no I'm just sitting here because I don't want to be in hospital. It's very boring. He say okay. I told him I propose him to show our museum maybe some excursion short excursion. He said no I saw it previous time I I don't want and in this group was the other person who was serving in her son region in her son district um there also wars there and um he told he start to chat with me and told that he haven't seen his family for three years from the beginning of full scale invasion and he start to ask some questions and uh I propose him if he finish to paint we can move to our expositions to to see something to chat maybe he will have some questions and those guy came with us he said okay I just will go I just go I don't want to see it it's painting his four girls and he move he go with us and in we start to chat in exposition I told that some of these exhibits take part in battle for key cave in 2022. And uh it was very funny to see the exhibits on the streets of our city like a part of our struggling and this guy start to chatting with us. he start to answer to ask some questions and in in in result we we became chatting very well and I feel very I don't know I'm not psychologist I'm just our criticism but it was uh it was very interesting that uh it's like one person and another person we don't know each other but uh we get get well in in in museum on in some topics and he start to say to talk me about his his life his experience we don't talk about his trauma exact why he's in hospital because he was he have arms and legs it was okay he was like look like healthy person but I understand that maybe there is some other injuring but it was okay and it it was also a great experience for me and from our colleagues because we understand that uh things we start are very important and it's it's very important for us because in wartime we uh we can help them. We can help these guys. They understand that they are needed in society that they can return and it's okay because uh most of them don't uh don't understand that uh they are needed in in in society and uh for what they should return it better to be on the war with their um brothers in arms. principles of our works uh is trauma informed approach do not harm. uh I we have uh two specialists now who are working with uh these guys human centrance at agency and six and dation of memory and culture as a uh resource integrity it's our principles and on the picture we can we can see the quest for children of of militarian persons and veterans of Russian Ukrainian before it was in July of this year and uh we start to do different activities not with only militarians but also with different uh with their families with children with persons who are removed from the from the regions where the battles and persons who lost their their homes their families all their stuff and now they're living in like safe places in Ukraine. There is no safe places but so so like okay areas of works uh physical and cultural programs uh it's uh the things that I told previously on the beginning of my speech uh it was uh programs uh we start collaborations with documentalists with artists with volunteers uh and different other activities work with museum staff. It's we start our my uh department who of rehabilitation they are start working with our staff uh to make them better in communication with uh militarians veterans and their families children's and etc educational and research direction. Now our team take part in United National Organization initiative in Ukraine. It's a universal design courses of universal design and uh we uh want to make our museum more universal more inclusivity more inclusive and it's very important for us uh culture of inclusivity accessibility and trauma informed instruction that what was I talking about previously and we have courses of animation it one of our uh artists and um designers and they are making uh cartoons with militarians and children. It was uh and it one of the best activities. They uh our guys have a program from uh five, seven, 10 uh uh studying studying master classes and then they have result a cartoon and um in future my goal and uh my colleagues goal is to make maybe exhibition or something like this uh dedicated to activities of all these persons all these people. So peer-to-peer approach it's uh one of our volunteers uh her name is Sitlana her husband is it's a first first ex librris lin cutat workshop uh first picture and uh I met her husband like a volunteer he was volunteer for for our museum for our army and um his wife is designer and she proposed to make such a lina cut workshop and it's was successful. We have about five sessions of this uh liner cut master class and workshop and it was very interesting. Also we make studings and uh lections for um militarians by militarians. And on this the next photo you can see u the master class from the general psychologist of uh 12 brigade of n national guard azo it called azo very famous brigade which was fighting in marupal in 2022 and they it was very interesting to to see how militarians can work with militarians uh on the civilian area that's it so I will finish and Right now on the October our results are number of events about 38 it's different master classes events with militarian now in we are in process of making evening of poetry with there will be one of the guest will be soldier who was on our rehabilitation and uh in during excursion he start to read poet poems his own poems and it was very touching. his uh guys his brothers in arms who was with him were with him are were very surprised and some women's who are like um social workers who are supporting and uh work with those guys were crying and it was very touching and I propose him uh I remember you I tell him I we start to chat in messengers and he sent me some his poems and um two few weeks ago I called him and told that uh Yuri we have such idea to make a evening of poetry of militarians and civilian poetry about about war in Ukraine and he told me okay uh but I have some one problem I'm on the front line so uh now we are thinking maybe it will be like some zoom or something like this yeah it's very strange because uh he I chat with him and I heard blowups on the background and I tell okay one one more I will tell take care tell me if you need something on the front line your brothers in arm need something we will help and uh now we he will be the part of our evening of poetry and it's also very important for us also we have number of participations involved There is about 596 persons uh from the beginning of this year uh and now uh we are making about 13 12 13 events per month by our own by our museum staff and uh I think it's uh not so bad result but uh it's not enough and also we have as I told previously we have um um master classes and trainings for our museum staff and the uh people who receive trainings. There are about 137 persons now. So I give a floor for Marina. Thank you very much. >> Sorry for my English. It's not so good. >> Uh okay. I just want to add some insight uh from our work to Yuri speech as a creator of some museum project and as a person who mostly work with architects and designers in our museum. Uh first of all and there is very interesting for me. I noticed uh that the uh traumatic history spaces uh is really reliable spaces to rehabilitation work. As Yuri previously said um the most stores uh we make for uh these affected communities of veterans uh militaries their families etc. uh taking place um in our exposition and um the museum also have some art exhibition as also Yuri said the war and worse perspective it's a great uh artistic exhibition where we talk about the wars uh through the metaphor through the artistic forms but the most popular uh exhibition is um exhibition which have uh which is the most war objects concentrated which um which is the most war uh stories concentrated uh so that's why I noticed uh traumatic history uh is reliable for this kind of work in our museum that's why uh for me as a creator it's a big insight because uh it means uh we didn't need to uh change our contact uh uh to uh like um processing the contact uh content about the war a lot. Uh so we can just say the true we can just uh show truth about the war and still reliable for uh the most part of our audience. Uh so this first insight and the second maybe I would say a few words about our ambitions and plans. uh because uh because it's also about our work as exhibition department. Uh so uh the first uh we have like uh two uh separate uh plans, general plans, big plans uh for uh this kind of work. First of all, uh we want to develop and spreading our rehabilitation area uh through the uh spreading communities uh develop new forms method uh uh maybe new practices for our audiences. Uh and the second it's about uh like more physical spaces um like architects project etc. We already have uh like a lot of spaces in our museum. We also have um um experts uh in architects form in design uh etc. But we try to find and we do it every day uh supporting and new possibilities to uh develop and uh to create a new special maybe space uh for this part of our work and I think it's very important for us because uh it's not about like conceptual developing uh like um it's also about physical ical developing of the museum of the museum spaces and in also about accessibilities in our museum. Uh we are like Soviet form building uh something like that and we need a lot to change in our museum. So that's why we are here that's why uh we are open to every new possibilities uh to every new collaborations etc. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. That was very um interesting and inspiring. I had to cross out few of my questions because we want to have questions from the audience as well. But I have to um in both of your um all three presentations, there was a lot of I think um common denominations. Um you talked about the need of feeling needed and uh the the key word that I remembered especially from your um presentation Jolene was reclaiming and I would like to dive into this a little bit why we should not avoid dealing with the traumas and can you elaborate on this from the scientific perspective? Why our minds, our brains, our bodies? Why do we need to deal with the most difficult moments in our lives? >> As people or as museums or both? >> I think I think as both. >> As both. Okay. Um well, my true answer would be that you cannot command for somebody to deal with trauma. uh not from somebody personally, it's a personal choice when we decide to to turn towards uh and for museums as well I think. But what we see when people are becoming I don't know brave enough or strong enough or feel well supported by their surrounding stepping into trauma healing. Um, we have the possibility to reconnect. Reconnect with ourselves, reconnect with the people we meet, reconnect with the world. And for us as human beings, this is vital. We'll not survive alone. Just biologically, we will not survive. If we fundamentally need to contact with others and dealing with trauma most likely will make people withdraw. So we all know the moment that we get really angry or get mad or feel overwhelmed, we might go into the fight or the flight mode. But for people dealing with trauma, our automatic nervous system immediately goes to freeze or fawn. it will just like withdraw you with everything. So you physically will not be capable to connect with the world around you. So it's somebody feeling as lonely as they can be. And I don't think from human perspective if you know that it should be a question why should we help people. >> So yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's for museums as well. >> Yeah. I think that's very powerful since museums are so much set in communities. >> Absolutely. >> Um I want to ask you because you said that when >> still Yeah. Sorry. >> Um you said that when you were first starting you worked with police psychologists. I assume you were scared at the beginning but then when you talked about your program the more you were talking the more smiled you were. So what are the feelings? What surprised you the most with this program, if I may ask such a rather personal question and what would be your advice >> to others who perhaps want to enter in this kind of um museum programs. >> Uh thank you for your question. The most surprising for me was that uh those guys who came they were ready uh to uh us to help them because um if if the person want the part of rehabilitation it it won't come they won't be in museum and etc. And as I mentioned in my presentation, they they were very positive. They have uh um high amputations. Most of them on that first group and but they were so bright. They were so happy. They were so uh uh positive. They uh translated all over the space and it was amazing for me. It was like okay I understand that I'm not so happy like they are and I'm I'm not living all my full life like they are living now because they were there they were on front line they have seen death they they can uh die and they understand that they have a great chance and opportunity but u in other hand uh not all p it's it's a not so big p percent of uh people who uh who have some some problems came in came but uh we we try to do it more and more and more effective more quality and etc. Yeah, in the very beginning uh I'm sure we uh talk a lot with military psychologist with polycologist and it's was surprising for me uh that not all they said us was helpful. Uh so my recommendation >> uh is uh uh first of all to hear the war affected person uh and uh because uh if uh they can set and ask about help um you can do more for them uh than if you do what uh your psychologist said. >> Okay. Yeah, >> it's very straightforward. I highly appreciate that. >> But join going back to the specialism. >> No, no, no. I I I can quite relate. I mean, today I heard a lot of people talking about brave spaces for us as as therapists, we often don't use the word um safe space because for people dealing with trauma, they don't know what safety is. So it's like asking them a question that they can't relate to. So I would ask you make sure you feel most comfortable as you can feel or what would would be your most happy moment for people dealing with trauma or severe depression. The mind is doing what we call a backdrop. So the mind will first go back to all the moments that we did not feel happy before it can come to happiness. >> Part of the healing process. >> Yeah. No, as part of the safety process. Okay. Yes, it's more for us as human beings, it's very much more important to know where danger is than where safety is because danger is is in order to survive. So when you ask somebody what's your most happy moment for a lot of people dealing with trauma, the mind first goes back to all the moments that you are not happy or not feel safe in order to protect you because that's I think the most value thing that we can learn from trauma. It does does do things that we don't like, but it's our body's best attempt to try to keep us as safe as possible. And that's a change of narrative in in in in dealing with trauma, I think. But I have one more question to you because we spoke about the participants of your programs, but we have here the staff of the museum which took on extremely difficult tasks. So, and it's definitely um I've also worked with and I still work with uh people working in martical museums in in in Poland and they are some of the most devoted museum professionals I've ever come across. It is taking toll on the museum staff. So, how do we care and what we have to remember when we take on such a difficult task? What do we have to remember about about the staff and and how to care for them? >> Yeah, I think it's a very good question and two answers come to mind. One of them is I I said it in the presentation emotional labor. So, it's asking you know most people who work at places like memorial centers or people places where second world or they have a po personal relationality with the story that the museum tells. So it's it's for them it's not only stepping into work but it's stepping into your personal experience and your personal story every day. So the people work around diversity, inclusion and equality might know this. It's talking about your own scars day in day out. So I think it's something we should support museum stuff in. And we have something called trauma growth. So when people have dealt in the first two phases of their of their trauma and their healing, trauma growth can come and it's it's our deepest wish to grow flowers and beauty from all the pain and this fuels our work ethos stepping into our day. So those are the colleagues who will pick up the phone at 11 at night, who will run in weekends, who will do everything because there is a second layer of why they do their work. So I think that's also something to to keep in mind working in places like this if that makes sense. >> Although we do not recommend working round the clock of course >> for other reasons. >> Yes. Um okay. Um before we ask um give the give our audience a chance to ask you some questions. I have one more um question to you. What are your you talked about your next steps in terms of redoing the the museum that did the the building but what are your plans on developing the um the project. You told me about your plans for for a conference maybe. >> Yes. It's a good opportunity to say a few words about >> now we are collecting our unique experience because Ukraine is only one European country. We don't talk about Russian Federation which are which are is in war and have a real experience of people who need help who have trauma and uh we are uh in searching of uh new new ways of how to work with uh with uh soldiers with their families with children and how to talk about war. how to work with trauma better. And we have one uh um qualified psychologist in our in in our department of rehabilitation. And we have uh also a manager who works with >> accessibility >> with um >> accessibility. >> Accessibility. Yes. Of Thank you, Marina. And uh um now we are thinking about uh how to make uh our uh stuff uh this team bigger. Um we have some a lot of problems in Ukraine except war in the culture sphere and uh in the war time it's very difficult to make deal with finances with a a lot a lot of stuff but finances is first because it's salaries because it's our opportunities all over the world in Ukraine and in in our work and uh we are planning to uh we want to share our experience and uh my goal and my plan in 2026 to make a big conference in my idea in our concept it it can be three three different panels or uh maybe three days or something like this. There should be militarians, there should be veterans, there should be uh volunteers all over Ukraine and also there should be scientists all over the world. My goal is to make the the base for exchanging experience and uh of course uh we should work uh in uh not not like MSource but like professionals and uh with professional methodics and and etc. And why because of this uh we need uh more and more information more and more experience all over the world and uh it's it's my goal and uh speaking less globally uh we also try uh to implement new miss and new forms to work with war affected community. Uh now we working with art therapy mostly and cinema therapy in our museum and maybe next month is uh we should implement other forms >> theater for example. >> Okay thank you that's sounds very very interesting but I want to give our audience a chance. So um yes please. Uh you are from the war museum right? Do you also reach out to other Ukrainian museums like art museums or other museums in your country? >> Uh thank you for your questions. Yes. Uh we are working with uh all our our colleagues. Uh we uh we try to uh uh now our goal is to make uh uh such a local some local conference for cave or for Ukrainian museums to share our experience because now not so much museums have responsibilities and opportunities to uh to make such a program as our museum made because it was like it was very spontaneous this idea. was born in my head and Marina born new idea to make a unit in our museum and it's I think maybe I'm wrong but I I think I want it's a first unit museum unit regular uh in in Ukrainian museum because there is some studies some sessions master classes uh in other museums but uh like a regular unit it's a first president, the first example in Ukraine and uh um for me like one of top managers I I want to share experience with all our colleagues and to show them that we can do it in such a difficult time. We can do it by our own by our initiative and uh I think in future government because there is more and more programs in Ukraine which supported by our government um to make a rehabilitation program like strategy of working with such a people and uh my goal uh to make it to be like a first m to start to be the first museum like example for other that it possible and we can do it. >> Thank you. Any other questions back in there? Nana, >> our guest from Georgia. >> I already have the microphone. >> Hello. I'm from >> Oh, sorry. Sorry. >> Sorry. I can That's okay. My name is Hannah. Uh, and I have question for Jolene. Um, so speaking about trauma and post-trauma rehabilitation. So I was thinking I question myself because I I'm Ukrainian also. So I find it a bit different to work with the like post trauma and ongoing trauma when it's every day happening again and again. So I was wondering like from because I don't have maybe enough education. So I have practical experience but not scientific uh part like is it is it different like are there um crucial differences between two of the methods like I don't know how to shape this question better. I think if I understand you correctly, your question would be working trauma informed. Would it be different for a museum just welcoming everybody or a museum still in war setting and having day-to-day trauma? Would that be your question? Kind of sort of Okay, thank you for that question. Um, I think so. Yes. Um, one is setting up a way to work, a framework to welcome everybody to feel as safe, there's the word again, as safe as comfortable as they can be. Um, and there might be people dealing with war trauma, but having other experiences of trauma as well. What we see when museums are tuning into traumatic events that are still going on, people stepping into the museums with their personal story are in a different phase of their own trauma healing. And we can say that trauma healing mostly has three phases. And when a person is in a personal trauma healing uh phase coming into phase three, his has his own ability to to hold himself while meeting triggers. For somebody who is still in a traumatic event and still going on is in phase one or two. And that's that's that's taking different supports from what a person might need. So I would advise as you are doing the most beautiful example to welcoming in mental health professionals who have a background as a trauma therapist to work on the ground in your museum. Now, as you are a museum like we I work with the Van Go Museum or Museum of the Mind, they have a personal story that might relate to trauma but is not really active in the day-to-day practice. You would see how can we welcome everybody and train our visiting facing staff uh in a way that is trauma informed but is also supporting for people dealing with a lot of stress or are coming from burnout or depression just a minority who have an activated stress system. So that's quite a different approach than really welcoming people who are in the first or second phase or of trauma healing. Yes. Is that answering your question? Thank you so much. >> Thank you for this clarification and sorry because I see the lights and I don't see all the audience. So we're back to Nana. >> Uh I'm Nana. I'm from Georgia. Uh first part of my question maybe it's not question but it's an reaction of uh on the presentation of Ukrainian friends. Um I I can't stop to um applause you as a nation because you are so strong. Um you said that uh you are the only country in Europe who now are under under the war. Uh but actually Georgia is also in the war with Russia. uh we don't have this t I can't compare of course it is not an open war with Russia but we have this kind of heid war and um we had this open war twice one was in 1993 another one was in 2008 and that traumas are also also open until now and um during the last Here we have uh everyday demonstration and ongoing dramas as well. So uh it's um and no one uh decided to make something uh to help people in museums. That's why I'm really applauding you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And uh the question is to the Julie. Is it your name? Julie. >> Uh our society is splitted in two parts now. Uh, one is in the actual protest every day and another one somehow started to hide themselves maybe to save themselves uh from the drama. I don't know. And um uh uh people are thinking that uh it is not correct because all are human all have some um limit maybe um and um is it correct? But the process is ongoing. So the uh pressure from uh Russia which is through our government pro-Russian government is every day going ongoing and uh what in in such a situation we have to do because I'm a one who is standing on the demonstrations every day and a lot of friends of mine are just hiding. I understand that all we are human and now you can feel how I am tired. Uh but if everyone will uh hide from traumas. So what will happen then when when the process is ongoing? The question is how to deal with this, to stay in the protest and to stay in the war and also to think about your mental health and yeah, >> thank you and sorry for my emotions. No, may I start with applauding your courage for standing up and asking this question and sharing your story. So, thank you for that. Um, and I'm so sorry for the situation you're in, your country is in, your friends, your family, your loved ones, for you as well, for everybody here affected. Um, and it's a big question to ask what can we do? And you are so right that everybody responds in situation like this in various ways. Um we all know this from people who not been affected with war but when challenging moments come up people just act differently. And there's finding this balance in what I what do I need to hold myself and how can I be still be in contact with the other not only to support the other person but also to support you because the contact with others will eventually support you. If I understand your question correct, what can we do? I see people hide and I'm on the street. What can I do? What we know from trauma is that it might not make us feel our boundaries as much as we should when we feel safe. So when in traumatic events we might do things that we could we could never imagined at the moment that we felt safe and we were safe. The moment that insecurity comes on when when fundamentally our lives are in danger we are capable of doing things that we could never imagined. So it's also something we can not discuss coming up into war. Should we go on the streets with everybody? Should we do this or should we do that? It's not like we can agree to common common sense on how to react. So in that moment everybody will respond in its own way again because that is what our body is doing at its best attempt to keep you as safe as possible. So I can't I can't solve your problem. I'm so sorry. I wish I could. That's our common humanity. What we feel here in in the space is our compassion that we all want to lift that suffering that you all endure. The only thing that I would say is the moment that you I want to come back to what I said. I lost it. Um let me see if I can find it again. Yes, it's there to keep reminding that the choices that you make are your way to keep you protected. And this is also for the other po person who withdraws. It's their action in their body to keeping them safe. And I think it it might be helpful for people enduring trauma in the present moment to keep remind that that is what you both have in common. It has a different outcome, but your intention has the same common ground. It's your best way bodies attempt to keep you safe and to be aware of that we can relate to that and that this is our entrance to keep rem meeting the other person. This is the only thing I can offer you in this in this moment. Yes. And thank you. I would like to add a few words to it. As much as I don't know what I can tell you, Nana except for that I I admire what you've been waring for doing for more than 300 consecutive days standing in the street. Just imagine that. Um I know what we all can do as we are here as as the European museums community, American museum community show moral support. you know, in uh 22 when um Ukrainian refugees fled towards the Polish border, we surprised ourselves as a society by accepting everyone in our homes, not in refugee camps, um but at our homes. And um I think we were surprised ourselves why that happened. That happened because we did something that no one did for us in 1939. Of course, none of us was alive back then. Almost none of us at this point, but this is post-t trauma. This is something that we have deep inside. So, we just did something that we felt was the right thing to do. And for all of us here, we can show moral support, by sharing the stories from Georgia, by following the news, by telling other people what's going on there, and by pre making moral pressure on others that this is another um country that is suffering, and we should just put our strengths together to try to help you. Okay. Um, we have time for one or two more questions, I guess. Anyone? Okay. So, um, uh, thank you very much for what you shared. It's been extremely powerful and very very needed. I think we are closing our day one which was very diverse, very busy and I think um gave us a lot for further reflection that we will um that we will continue. I think what I will remember the most is is is still the this feeling needed concept not only for those veterans but I think for for all of us that we wouldn't be in this line of work that we are if we didn't have this satisfaction of um feeling needed um with what we do and hopefully it stays that way.