NEMO European Museum Conference 2025 | Caring collaborations: From inspiration to infrastructure

My name is Neil Fitia. I'm a technical officer at the World Health Organization Regional Office for Europe which is based in Copenhagen and I have the pleasure of being the uh the chair today. First of all, I wanted to say thank you very much for the invitation. Um it's an unusual space where WH is beginning to operate. culture and health is a is a new space and the bridges between the cultural sector and the health sector aren't fully constructed yet. They're maybe in some places they are and in some places they're not. And I think part of our journey today is to explore a little bit how that has worked in in what places and and uh and what maybe they're what some tips might be um in relation to that. So I'll say a little bit about my background, the work that I've been doing, but really we're here to hear from our experts. So um we'll uh we'll we'll get to that bit as quickly as possible. Um arts and health is a space that's been around for many many years. Uh many people are probably already familiar with arts therapies um that probably go back uh over a hundred hundred years or so. But the field of arts and health is something that's been um coming to the four becoming more more and more prominent probably over the last 20 years. and and it's a space where practitioners from the arts and practitioners from culture can intersect with health and and health outcomes. And we published a report on this in um in 2019 where we were looking at the evidence base for the support of uh um for how culture and the arts can support health. And even though it was not what we call in in in the health sciences a systematic review, it it was a scoping review. had looked at all the evidence that we could find over the last 20 years. We were very confident that the evidence was strong enough for us at WHO to promote the space and to uh um enter in it more firmly. Um most of the space, most of the research in the space takes place in the mental health arena. So it's often about how arts and cultural participation can help to improve mental health. A lot of it is around singing and and song and and dancing in fact as well. But a very strong component about this is also around museums and health museums and and healthcare. So I'm very pleased that Nemo has taken this uh um theme to heart and that you are all exploring it and and exploring the ways in which museums can contribute towards uh towards health. So on today's journey with today's panel we're going to go from um a kind of broad research perspective which u um Helen is going to to give us towards a practitioner perspective a perspective on the ground implementation which we'll hear from um Inga and then we'll hear from Pia about how all of this can be politicized in some ways how how we can strategize around the political dimensions of integrating the two um the two parts So um to start with we have u the wonderful opportunity to have Helen Chaty with us. Helen is joining us from London um via uh via a uh um the internet. Helen is an award-winning researcher at University College London where she um focuses on the intersection between arts and health and in particular she's been a pioneer in the space of museums and health. So we're very pleased to have you with us virtually Helen. Um, the floor is yours. >> Thank you, Neils, and thanks to all of you for inviting me. I hope you're having a wonderful conference, and I'm very sorry I can't join you in person. I hope you can all hear me. Okay. Uh, but if you have any technical difficulties, just shout at me and tell me to to do something. Um, it's a great pleasure to be here. I'm going to share some slides. So, um, I'm just going to talk to you for about 10 minutes and talk to you a little bit about the kind of work that we do, um, and a little bit of an overview of the evidence base as Neil says around museums, culture, heritage, and hell. We've been working in this space as a research group for around 15 nearly 20 years at the university. I used to run our university museums and that's how I got involved in thinking about health and thinking about working with communities around improving aspects of health and well-being. So that's what led me into this work and really giving me unique insights I guess into um the opportunities but also some of the challenges around working in this space. Neil's mentioned the WHO the World Health Organization report and actually we now really really benefit from a huge wealth of evidence in this area. Um in the UK we we made great strides over the last 5 to 10 years gathering together the evidence base for a huge quantity of work across the UK and beyond in the space. And here's just a small snapshot of some of the the types of evidence that exist. Things like those scoping reviews that Neil's mentioned from the the World Health Organization, other reports um from people like Daisy Fan Court. There's whole journals as you may know dedicated to arts and health and I'm really pleased to say that museums have started to feature increasingly in many journal and academic outputs through to then the wider remit of arts, culture, museums and health. So things like access to nature and the links between nature, gardening and the outdoors and its links with arts and creativity. And up there on the top right hand side of the screen, you can see a report that really made a massive difference to us in the UK um around creative health, which was really the first attempt to bring together a largecale review of the vast swades of evidence. That report published in 2017 contains over 1,000 references. So it's a really great place to start and I'm pleased to say there's whole sections around museums. So what do we do? We do research around the impact of cultural creative participation. So we work across a wide range of sectors to do that work. And we really couldn't do that work without this collaboration across all of those cultural community arts uh nature museum uh providers that are are providing inter uh interventions, activities, programs that are targeting communities with a specific purpose of improving health and well-being. And as part of that ecosystem, the uh partnership with health, social care and other third sectors providers really really important. and I'll talk more about that. And we've worked with a huge range of audiences. Typically, our work has focused on inequalities and working with vulnerable or marginalized audiences. And here's just a list. And I'll just highlight some of those people working around mental health service usage, cancer patients, stroke survivors, and people with dementia. And it's really those communities and working with those audiences that I guess have given us the greatest insight into understanding what we're interested in is how can we best evidence the impact of arts, cultural and museums engagement on different aspects of health and well-being. For us, a big part of that was thinking about how do we measure it? Um and uh part of that was I guess working particularly more on the clinical side where a lot of our clinical colleagues across health and social care were very uh connected to the need for having quantitative evidence that led us to develop our own measurement toolkit and I won't through talk through the development of that toolkit today. Uh you can access it. It's available for free. But we worked on that toolkit for two years with 30 different museums and arts organizations and over 200 participants to develop a more creative way for assessing psychological well-being. And again, I won't talk through that co-production process, but that was really really important to work with both providers, referers from the health and social care sector and really really importantly the participants engaging in those activities. So thinking about what kinds of toolkits, methods and approaches can work best for capturing the impact of creative participation. And so we we produced this creative well-being measure which has really helped us to help understand these different dynamic aspects of engaging in creative um and arts activities. And that's led us to work collaboratively with many different organizations and individuals as I've talked about and many many different projects. And a key focus for that has been really is thinking about how can we make that research impactful and available to people outside of academia. So we work a lot with lots of different types of organizations, policy makers, local, regional and national organizations as well as international organizations to think about accessibility. Um, some of the the sorts of research that we've done is really focused, as I've said, on thinking about working around specialist communities perhaps who have not had access to arts and culture for various reasons, perhaps due to isolation, perhaps due to sociodemographic or socioeconomic reasons. And that's led us to think about working in partnership with organizations who are really focused on working with vulnerable communities. Um and again I won't talk through the details of this research project but that's just one research project where we work very much around what we would call mixed methods gathering a lot of quantitative qualitative and creative data to help understand the impact of creative participation. In this project, museums on prescription, where we were testing how museums could work more collaboratively around social prescribing, working with referers in health care and gathering lots and lots of data and evidence from all of the different players. I'll just go back one slide. Uh all of our projects involve partnership with many many different collaborators, the referers on the health, social care, and third sector side of things through to the arts and cultural organizations. and like I've said the participants themselves. Um, and we really couldn't do this work without that partnership. And these are just some of the findings from this particular project that I wanted to highlight in terms of understanding how we can capture impact. And here you can just see really important aspects of improvements to people's perceptions of the quality of life including things like learning and acquisition of new skills. really importantly in this project the fact that people who for this cohort we worked with around a hundred different participants and most of them had died and had never never visited a museum or had only ever been say once in their life and they were an older cohort of people. So seeing that cohort starting to visit museums off their own back, continuing to visit museums after in this case what was a 10-we intervention and talking about how that's led to healthier lifestyle changes has made a huge impact for us. And I won't talk again about outcomes specifically. I think many of you who are delivering work in this area will be familiar to these outcome in relation to these outcomes. But some really important ones for us over the years that all of our research projects have shown are where we see engagement in creative arts museum- based activities leading to things like increased optimism, hope, self-esteem, a sense of identity, opportunities for meaning making and all of that we know is really really important in terms of people uh having agency over themselves and their lives and really importantly for us thinking about how engag Engagements of this type can also help tackle what we call the social determinance of health. And over 70 to 80% of our health is actually not determined by clinical factors but in fact by our sociodemographic socioeconomic socioultural factors that govern our life where we are born where we are where we live where we work and where we die. So it's really important I think for us to capture the great impact that cultural engagement can have on those aspects because we know they are directly improve linked to improvements in health. So for us just to finish off this is really I guess uh this image captures where we think the role of arts, creativity, museums and cultural engagement fits in and where we see the best kinds of engagement or where we have all of these elements at play. physical engagement uh depending on what people's abilities are emotional so good psychological uh engagement cognitive engagement so that really important critical thinking that's important for all audiences but I think in museums we can really show how critical cognitive engagement can happen we talk a lot about increased learning and skills acquisition and of course really importantly the social element and at the heart of all of that I think is creative engagement and that's what we think really leads to be uh improved health um and well-being. And these are just a few takeaway messages just to finish off um that we have found over many years of working in this space. And again, I won't run through all of these because I think we'll perhaps pick up some of these themes in our discussion. But I've talked about the importance of collaboration and partnership working and many of you will know that the importance of building sustainable partnerships, the importance of thinking about cost and funding. We know that funding is a massive issue. Um, but really the importance of moving away from very short-term programs because we know that there can be many challenges with that and we're often uh siloed into uh organizing our work into short-term interventions. My timer is telling me to stop so I'm going to finish off there. But just to flag that um for us really working collaboratively across the whole sector. We set up a national center for creative health which is a strategy organization and we work very closely with the culture health and well-being alliance which is a national sector support organization. We've really found that that national working together collaboratively as a set of individuals and organizations has been really helpful for us in trying to understand what works well but also what some of the challenges are around delivering that work and for example that has led to the development of a creative health quality framework to help understand what good looks like. So I hope that was useful. I'm really excited to hear our next talks and look forward to to engaging in a in a Q&A session afterwards. So I will stop sharing and hand back to you. >> Thank you very much Helen and Helen. We're going to keep you in the spotlight for a minute more. So thank you so much for for really an excellent presentation and apologies really for h forcing you to compress all of the last 15 20 years of of knowledge and research into into 10 minutes. That's uh it's a hard ask, but I I wanted to follow up on on something in particular. You mentioned social prescribing or museums on prescription, and I think it's a really important um part of um of what we're talking about because it's the kind of the links the link between um people who who are have certain health conditions or or health challenges with the cultural sector and with places like museums. I'm just wondering um for those of for those of us in the room who may not be familiar with museums on prescription or or or um social prescribing, can you say a few words about that uh about that concept? >> We might have lost >> ah we might have lost >> Yeah, sure. I mean the idea of social prescribing is is it >> Yeah, sorry. Yeah, we we can uh um we can hear you but uh you're you're a bit frozen but maybe things are back to normal now. So go for it. Okay, just let me know if you can't hear. So, social prescribing refers to the referral from a health care professional, any health care professional. It might be a GP, it might be somebody who works in social care to a source of support in the community. Um, I would actually say in the UK and elsewhere, we know there's a big practice of social prescribing now many parts of the world. Um actually most of the work that goes on in the arts and cultural sector doesn't involve a formal referral from a health care professional but social prescribing in the UK became endorsed by the NHS um and uh has been accepted as a formal referral pathway within healthcare. >> Does that give you enough enough detail Neil? >> Yeah absolutely. So um and the connection is a little bit poor. So we we might come back to you um in a moment after the um after the other talks. But I just maybe wanted to underline the fact that um a the UK is probably ahead of the game here. It's a concept that was introduced in the UK by um by UK researchers by the NH NHS. But nevertheless, I think it's it's a very interesting and dynamic space where the two sectors are really beginning to collaborate together. And and I think this is part of what we want to discuss here a little bit about the challenges of of having two sectors um that sometimes don't uh don't speak to each other. So Helen, we'll we'll leave it at that for for now and uh and come back to you during the the Q&A. Um but now I'd like to introduce um Ingga Ina Swe. Um Inga is a a research assistant at the Culture and Arts Institute of the Latvian Academy of Culture. She was also um up until recently a delegate from Latvia on the open method of coordination group um that was looking uh that was sponsored by the European Commission and looking at culture and health and how the two um sectors could or should work more effectively together. Um and she's going to tell us a little bit more about the practical um implications of an arts and and health and museums project on the ground. So Inga over to you. Thank you so much. It's a really big honor as you can see and joy and overwhelming experience to be here and to share um the Latan perspective uh and maybe the context of the Baltics with culture and health and after a very very inspiring and impressive uh presentations of yesterday where we saw that in many countries this cross- sector collaboration is already taking place since years and decades. I will share the the Latian case. Um, and the developments here are quite recent. In 2022 in SE's municipality, three museums and one heritage site inspired by guess who? Helen uh the guide uh museums on prescription and the publication on five ways to wellbeing. We established the experiment the pilot program museums on prescription. There was I must admit quite dilant at that point but thanks to that we were noticed by um Denmark and other countries who joined uh together in the interact project arts and prescription that adopted the UK uh AOP model to the Baltic states and we were one of the piloting partners. So the greatest um innovation uh that came uh thanks to this project was that we reached out and we established a collaboration framework with our referral channels as we call them in the project and as you can see uh by the quote some of them were uh very open-minded uh surprisingly and we developed uh our museums and prescription program in a more solid and strategic way than in the very beginning. So it was um consisting of 8 to 10 weeks of uh around 16 activities and we're working with mixed groups. So people of different ages, different social and health backgrounds. And I would like to share uh benefits how we see them from this program and they go beyond health outcomes. But first and foremost, of course, we would wanted to support our audienc's participants and to improve their mental well-being. And that is what happened. And here you see them and you will see more of these wonderful people as I continue. Also, our collaboration partners, social and and health professionals said that their work uh was easier thanks to this program because we were one-of-a-kind uh service for these audiences where was with whom they sometimes were struggling to find some some extra um activities. Um but next to that when we look at the museums we saw that museums really really considerably improved the accessibility because they had to do it when meeting those audiences. Also uh through the referral channels we had the chance to um enlarge the the audience uh to have the so-called audience development or engagement audiences that as Helen mentioned would normally not come to the museum or had stopped for some reason coming to museum locally. We also saw a very positive social change uh if you could call it improved social climate because people in these mixed groups were meeting uh in unexpected ways, people who normally don't meet in the community. And when we think of culture professionals and artists, we saw this program as an extra opportunity for new job uh and new income for culture professionals and involved artists. Also new cultural and artistic practices were developed. Like here you can see a teenager and a senior together with a composer and musician composing a surrealistic symphony. And everyone was very uh surprised by the result. And for the involved cultural practitioners and artists, it was like a new realm of uh creative practice being more more so socially impactful and seeing what it really changes uh in these people's lives. Now when the project is over um we are trying to somehow transition into something more permanent and those are our challenges. Of course, unlike in many other countries, in in our situation, we are lacking local or national uh regulations and funding. So, we are very realistic that there won't be any national or or municipal funding at the moment. Also, we feel obliged to continue um working with these groups that we have engaged and um we don't know really how to ensure sustainability of the program. We also saw that the training was offered to the museums and artists but it was not enough. We also mapped gaps in the training and more training uh is needed. Also psychological support and supervision is needed and we can't do evaluation on our own. Only this international project uh involving international researchers was allowing us to do so. And uh the last challenge that I think is a bit scary one that museums are so enthusiastic about this program, they want to just fix it all on their own. They they feel very empowered, but maybe it's not uh very realistic and not the best idea. And just to give you a bigger picture, not uh fully reading this all, but we see a similar situation in all three Baltic states. And maybe some of your countries could also be similar. there's dependence on EU projects and lack of national funding and and and legislation, very fragmented education and and research uh activities. So, three steps that we've been able to make. Um first of all a couple of weeks ago we organized an awareness raising uh conference uh on culture and health and this is the last panel um that uh invited um representatives of ministries of culture and health and two leading universities of the two fields to discuss and to dream about future culture and health cross-sector Latvia. Also, Latin Academy of Culture is a lead partner in the Arasmos Plus project that has established the very first lifelong learning educational program for the Baltics on Culture and Health. And we also during the same conference announced the establishment of an NGO, an association culture and health Latia. And it will have the mandate from the municipality to carry on with the museums and prescription program and have very basic seed funding. And still we are aware that we will have to do a lot of fundraising. And another aim uh of this association would be trying to bring together and support the emerging uh new professional community of culture and health in Latvia. Thank you for listening. Thank you very much Ina. And may I recommend to uh to all of you who are interested in this space um the the arts on prescription team put together a really tremendously informative guide for arts on prescription which is available online. I'm sure we'd be happy to share the u the link for those of you who are who are interested and it's a really tremendous uh um resource for anyone who's interested in in this space. Uh before we move on to Pia, I have a quick question because you you mentioned uh you I think you said at the beginning of your talk that you were surprised um about the the interest in this project from um different professionals and practitioners. Can you say a little bit more about your surprise and and well I guess the reactions or the forthcomingness of the people that you were you were surprised by? >> Yes. So when the project started and and uh this in this consortium of 13 partners from seven countries, everybody said that you will meet very resistant health professionals and they won't take you serious. So we uh took screenshots of the WH uh scoping review and we're presenting and presenting them one after another to to somehow convince them. And that was the remark that we got from the head of the thesis hospital that it's like um chief uh health organization in the municipality like stop this we are educated just tell us how we will do this >> so um it was a surprise for us we were ready for kind of a fight >> and but also um as we were not sure about medics we also invited the social services department the job agency and uh rehabilitation center that have a elderly care home and all of them agreed. >> So we were hoping for at least one but all of them were on board from the very first meeting. >> I think it's I think it's a really important point um to make that uh we focus a lot of on evidence. We focus a lot on on making sure that what we're doing is evidence-based evidence in informed um and I think we can take comfort from the fact that it is but often the conversations are much more practical in nature. um often the conversations with the healthare in the healthcare setting um with healthcare collaborators also in in in museums and cultural practices it's more it's often much more about the how and and uh uh and the practicalities. Pia, you're going to round up this uh uh this conversation and it's all on you to uh to bring us home. Pia is is the head of innovation and sustainability. Two very important words as we as we heard from um Ingga's presentation just now. um at Central Denmark region where she spent the last eight years helping to develop arts and health projects, initiatives and um strategies. And I think you're also uniquely placed um in the sense that you routinely work together with both sectors with the hospital with the healthcare sector with the um creative sector. >> Um so we're very keen to hear from from your insights. >> Over to you. >> Thank you very much. See if I can succeed in combining everything. Uh yeah, I only have one slide with me today, but uh I only had five minutes. So one slide I think is enough for five minutes. But uh thank you for the opportunity to be a part of this uh conference today. It's a great pleasure also to be a part of this more cultural uh conference than I normally attend to. Normally I'm more together with the healthcare system. So this is a great pleasure. So also sorry for maybe saying something wrong and mistake or whatever um for for your normally um presentations. So but yes I uh I represent the central Denmark region. You are a part of sensor gen region right now here in Hors is a region uh with 1.5 million inhabitants. So that's a bit about the the size and uh in our region we have five uh large hospitals and we also have a lot of social institutions which also works into this field but I also represent a great ecosystem with a lot of really important stakeholders in the culture field. I also represent an ecosystem with a lot of good universities, a lot of good schools uh who also works uh with educating uh clinicians to work in also this field. So uh it's not only me who is representing hospitals. I also feel that I represent the whole ecosystem today. And yes, we have been working with this field for eight years. Uh maybe a little bit longer in fact, but I have been working with this field for for the last eight years. And uh it's been a field that we that has been growing up from the bottom. A lot of flowers has been uh picked and supported and we've put water onto it. Um but in the last uh I think maybe five years we're trying to work more and more systematically with this area because of the things that Ingga says because of the things that Helen said is important to make sure that this this really important area makes uh uh becomes a success and becomes a really strong part of our healthcare system because we believe that these solutions that these two sectors can find together is is the way that we need to have our healthare system in the future. I have three points with today. The first one is about capacity building because these three points that I have is really important to work on on three different levels. Here in our region we need to have focus and we also need to have it on national and international level and partnership that's something that's really important for us because we know we can never succeed by ourselves. uh so and it's also more fun to be together with other and other brains and other insights and competences to develop uh the good initiatives. So in our region we have the we have uh started a partnership together with our university for example together with our municipalities with our cultural stakeholders a partnership we call hats. We just announced a web page in Danish but then you can practice your Danish. But uh this uh this is a partnership where we uh bring together the knowledge that we have but also to uh develop all the good initiatives that we have and to help each other in the different sectors in national level. It's it's uh there has been some movement the last years that we need to gather up across uh Denmark. I know it's a small country but still we work differently in our uh country in this field. So we have been together with some partners from both the healthcare sector and the cultural sector to build up a new national alliance. We took the first step together but right now we are waiting for the national politicians to put the yes button so we can hopefully create this national alliance to work on the on the large national agendas in this field. And then finally the international we need to combine every layers. So that's also why we use a lot of our energy in Brussels for example to push down the this agenda also in towards the the commission and few weeks I went there together with Niels and other good people to put an extra pressure on the politicians to see that this area is something they need to combine into all areas uh in when we do policies. The next one is research and innovation. And again, we can do things here in Denmark, but you do amazing things in other countries in Europe. So, we need to share together with each other all the good initiatives that we uh that we develop in the countries, all the good science that we develop and we need to share that because we don't need to do everything ourselves. we can just share uh and I think that's really important that we because it's also really uh strong uh no not strong uh tough to develop all these uh studies so that's why we need to help each other with this as well and innovation that's really important as well that we also this several years trying to work with this field in a new way uh because we need as a healthcare system to uh to demand for help. We have a lot of good solutions to help our patients and our citizens but we need to uh find out what are our core challenges in the healthcare system and then ask our ecosystems, our partnerships, our stakeholders to help us find the solutions. So we are right now in these uh these days trying to figure out what are our core uh challenges and then we are going to invite for example the cultural sector to say okay how can you help us and then we would try to not talk and see what can we come up with together. So working more in an innovative way is uh the way we also would like to work forward. And then the final thing I would say a little bit about is about policy because we couldn't have had this journey the last 8 10 years without having a political focus all the time. Uh and we have been having our own politicians really close to us. Normally we have politicians like this uh far away in our arm. they cannot come too close. But in this area, they have been really interesting to follow it very closely. Uh and if we also thought that if this this field should have the right impact in our healthcare system, they need to see it and feel it and uh see how how great difference it does for patients. So working really strategic with the polit uh the political level has been really important and uh we just had our first policy in our region. And I also think my um president from our council yesterday told about we had this first politics on arts and health and that's a really strong first step and I hope we will one day also have a national policy maybe a European policy uh at the end but this is a really important things to build when you won't build upon when you need to have this area as a core part of our healthcare system. >> I think it will start there. >> Thank you very much. Thank you very much for a beautiful presentation with just one slide. I think we can all take some advice from you about PowerPoint presentations. That's fantastic. Um I wanted to I wanted to follow up with you. Well actually before I say anything just a word of warning in a moment we will open the floor for conversations. So if you have a question uh if you want some clarification if you want to contribute to the discussion it's not only about questions and answers. because I think it's also we're also very we're also very keen to hear from you about your experiences in this space. So start thinking about what you uh you might want to ask. Before we uh we do that um Pia one of the things that I I feel central Denmark region has been particularly good in in this space is the question of sustainability and here I don't I don't mean sustainability in the environmental perspective I mean sustaining projects going beyond pilotitis not just having one pilot project after another but actually investing >> in pilots for what you are supposed to invest in in i.e. A pilot is supposed to test whether something can work and if it can work then you should um continue it or find ways of making it sustainable. >> I I suspect there's probably no secret sauce or or um one sizefits-all solution, but can you say a little bit more about how you've managed not just to water the flowers but to but to grow them? >> Yeah. Well, I have to stress out that we are not uh finished yet by having only sustainable good models in our region. But yes, it's it's true that it's something we have been really focusing at because a lot of good uh projects have been living its life in our region for many years. But as you also see if when the funding stops then we have a lot of uh patients and citizens who will have a a lack of uh initiatives in their lives which makes a really huge difference and that's why we need to take it serious to find okay then how can we work with this um and uh for the last uh 6 months we have been working on a framework to see how can we help new initiatives to become sustainable projects. uh so we from the beginning can have some discussion now how do you uh create your initiatives? How do you talk with different stakeholders who who will pay who will benefit to have different conversations about how you can make this project sustainable? >> And another part is that we have uh for until now it has been the cultural uh cultural part of the region who has been paying for all these initiatives and with the new health reform we also had this push that in the future the region unfortunately cannot work uh with the culture sector anymore. what we can work with but we cannot fund it as we have been doing until now. But we also believe that the healthare system also need to uh be the ones who uh who will pay the bill for this as at the same time they pay for uh the medicine and they pay for the beds and so on. So that's why we also been working on how can we see how are the costs for the different initiatives but we have a lot of dialogues together with the CEO of the hospitals to say this is yours you need to take over we will start with the first two years and then you will take over and you have two years to find out how you will find the money in your budget >> and we also had the experience that these initiative are not that expensive >> and when you look at a budget in a hospital it's huge >> so the money is there is just a to prioritize it. >> I think um I want to hook on to that uh that that issue that you raised about who pays for what. I think one of the um conversations that I find myself repeatedly having is because it's cross- sectoral work. Um the the bill can sometimes fall through the cracks. Um the culture sector might expect the healthcare sector to provide funding. the healthcare sector might provide might expect the culture sector and in the end nobody can agree on a budget and and projects don't get get implemented. Um you mentioned that in central Denmark region it is mainly the the cultural space um so far that is uh is is supporting these projects >> and I think Inga you mentioned that in fact in uh um in in your example there are still questions about who funds what and and perhaps there isn't kind of money for sustainability at all yet. Can you say a little bit more about uh um this this the cross- sectoralness of the of the funding support in in Latia? >> Yes, I can talk about the municipality that I work for. Um yeah, we've done um of course uh calculations and uh we see that um some of the expenses can be covered by existing resources by reallocating uh resources that are already there. for example, um the fees uh for artists or or um salaries of the museum people involved or transportation costs that social services can sometimes cover. So there is a part of it that can be rethought in a way and and reallocated but then there is this part that it still costs something extra. You can't only cover it by by the budgets you already have. And this is where this question emerges who will pay for that and on municipality level as I mentioned at the moment we the solution was to fund this um uh independent uh NGO a separate body who will try to do fundraising and and uh solve the the missing find the missing part when we uh reach out to our ministries uh it looks a little bit different I don't know how stiff the sectoral thinking is in other countries But in Latvia we all always get this response that all the planning and budgets are are really very very um like enclosed limited to sectors and it's very difficult to have like proper cross- sectoral collaboration putting money together also owning the results because I I didn't expect a debate on who will then uh own the the results the benefits the outcomes >> this kind of um discussions I think we have reached the point where ministries are very willing and they understand uh the value of collaboration but the way they have use are used to operate is not allowing it and I don't know uh how to move from that maybe you have an advice >> but this is how it looks on the national level >> thank you >> maybe I can >> because I think there's both a short term and a long term in this in the short term we of course need to find out how can we continue with the good communities that we have but in the long term for us it's been really important to to make sure that this field is a part of the legislation in Denmark so it's important that for example now we are going to have a new law in health promotion so we need to have this area in this new law so we there will also be funding in different ministries and not again from the cultural sector but also from the healthcare and also with the new law that came with the reform that just came to the migr healthare system. It's also very important two lines is now in the health legislation. So it always gives us the access to also have this discussion with other ministries and ask them to collaborate but that's not so easy to get them to collaborate but to find out where to put >> this area into different legislation and not only in one sector. M Helen, um I I want to go back to you with with a similar question because I think we sometimes look to the UK as a um as a a space where um at least it feels from the outside that the health sector is really quite bought in. um it's bought into this uh this conversation and uh um but can you say a little bit more about how um financing happens for um you know museums on prescription or or or arts and health interventions that happen in at museums? How does that work in the UK? >> Yeah, sure. I mean the first thing to say is funding is a huge issue in the UK as I think it is everywhere and typically most of that funding does come from the arts sector, arts council or um charities that support like the national lottery heritage fund for example. Um so yet although there is increasing buyin from health what we are not seeing is the transfer of cash to support that buyin. So that is still a journey we're going on. And um for us for example a big motivation behind setting up the national center for creative health was around the strategic changes that are needed to persuade health. I think for us typically the funding has been um held back and those strategic changes because of the evidence base um because it was seen to be that uh for example an arts intervention would be competing with something like a clinical intervention which is really unfair to make the same judgments about for example cost and value and cost benefits in the same way because it's really really hard to evidence the economic impact of what we call nonclinical community- based interventions but I think Pier and Inger made really good points um about how we can shift the scale towards understanding the kind of ecosystem approach that is needed. So although typically most of the work that happens in this space I think across the world is kind of short-term funding dependent where we've seen big strategic changes is within organizations as says where they've really changed the kind of core work to being the delivery around health and well-being and sometimes that means whole structural changes across organizations. So for example, in the same way that we saw in the museum sector around the integration of education and access. So we see a a big upturn in posts like museum well-being offices and posts that are dedicated to thinking about embedding community health and well-being as a core activity. And what we have seen in the UK is that that is then rewarded by increased and uplifts in funding from different sources. So that kind of strategic investment in reorganizing your organization as a kind of community asset. Then we see um reciprocal changes in funding. Um and I think Inger also made a point about the kind of partnership role and the and the support of that ecosystem. And again where we've seen successes is where we've had investment. we've decided to invest in these regional what we call creative health associate roles or connecting roles. So it's a huge uh time resource and and uh money investment for each individual organization to maintain a partnership and a connection with all the different kind of health care and community partners that are needed to support community health and it doesn't really make sense for each organization to do that individually. So we've been exploring this role of having kind of dedicated units that are there to support those partnerships. That of course still needs funding but we think that that is a more effective role at kind of local and regional levels that they then link those units kind of creative health connector roles. They make the links with the health and the social care, the population health teams, and they then make the links to the community organizations who are delivering community-based services in a much more efficient way. So, we're really arguing for more investment in that space to support the partnerships needed to deliver that ecosystem so that each individual arts organization doesn't have to do that for themselves. >> Thank you. Thanks, Helen. And maybe it's also worth mentioning even though it's a little bit peripheral um that the the fundamental question about the kind of social return on investment or in fact the economic impact on health that participating in arts and participating in culture inherently has. That's also a question that's being tackled in in in various places. And I do believe that the the UK government in late 2024 published a report on how much money um is saved annually on the basis of cultural engagement in relation to health. Yeah. So what are the cost benefits of engaging just engaging in in at the status quo? What is the what are the cost benefits of engaging in health um that cultural sorry engaging in culture that cultural institutions bring with them? And I think uh the the the figure was something in the region of 8 billion um pounds annually are contributed to the the health sector. All right. So we've reached we've reached the point where I'd really love to have a little bit of Oh, I was ah look at that. The hand is already going up. I was going to do a little little game where we all break down the silence and break down the fourth wall and and talk to each other. I think I might I might encourage us to do that anyway, but I I will come back to you in a moment. So maybe we can just spend 2 minutes um speaking with somebody who sits next to us about what we've heard and what we find interesting and uh maybe a articulate begin to articulate a question that we might have and I'll bring us back into the room in in in 2 minutes and then I'll I'll go straight over there with the with the first question. So find a neighbor and uh and have a quick exchange about anything that you think has been interesting over the last uh um few minutes. All right, I'm going to invite you to uh I'm going to gently invite you to wrap up your conversations and to join me back here on the stage so we can uh ask our colleague who was who was so fast with her hand. I really want to give her the floor but we we we do need to give her our attention. So if uh if I can ask you all to come to conclude your wonderful conversations. This is always the challenge with this uh with this trick is that you start to talk with your your uh your neighbors and the conversations become more interesting than anything else. All right. So, we had a question over there. If you wouldn't mind briefly just introducing yourself and then uh um asking your question or or your comment or your your experiences with culture and health. The floor is open please. Over to you. >> Perfect. I have I raised my hand because I have a very provocative question. >> Very good. >> So, I'm Sophia Vitman. I'm from Vienna Museum Booster and we're setting up a project uh f next phase of the research project called future museum where well-being will be a major piler of this project and we're going to bring together research from four continents to bring enough evidence of why insuranceances have to pay for museum visits. insuranceances. Uh however, insurance companies require evidence and uh as my whole family are psychiatrists, nobody's perfect. I know very well from the uh healthc care sector that clinical trials they go forward when there are pharmaceutical companies behind because they are financing all of the clinical trials and the travels of my dad and sister and not only. So does it mean that we as museums have to sell painkillers, vitamins or Viagra at the end of the museum visit >> in the museum shop? >> I think that's I think it's a good it's a great question. The question around evidence I think is u um is broadly a really important one and I'm very pleased that you brought insurers into this conversation because typically we learn from from what has uh been going on in the UK um and in the UK with the NHS you have a a public health system that's free at the point of access you don't typically have insurers insure I mean there are insuranceances in the UK but they don't play the same role as they do in Austria and Germany and lots of other parts of of Europe. So, how do we get insurers involved is a really good question and the question around evidence uh um basis is is very important as well. Helen, I'm going to come to you first. Um and I'm going to slightly repurpose your question because I I I'm going to latch on to the question of um RCTs. So, for those of you who are not familiar with that, it's randomized control trials. They're considered to be the gold standard of evidence in the medical space. Um but they also bring with them some challenges. So Helen, I'm I'm going to ask you if you can say a little bit about randomized control trials, how they apply to the space, but how how one also might like to challenge the notion that we really only need to we can only approve something if it is has had RCT level um evidence behind it. >> Yeah, I mean what a great question. Thank you for that. And and it does bring into question that the that the value of different kinds of evidence and the the issue I was talking about of how we're held up to this gold standard which is really impossible for us to meet. It is actually impossible. The reason it's impossible is because within randomized control trials, RCTs depend on having controlled variables. And what that means is that you can control all the different confounding effects that may come into play in a particular intervention. So if we just think about a standard museum program or set of activities say as part of a a fiveweek or 10 week program that may involve everything from museum tours, they might involve uh lectures, they might involve some object handling, they might involve visiting the galleries. How can we possibly control for the types of activities that would be going on in a creative community cultural space like that? The issue is is that we can't. And so typically when many of us all over the world have been trying to um undertake randomized control trials within the kind of community spaces like museums or libraries or even outdoors in in outdoor spaces. One of the big issues is that we're held to these standards that are only really designed for uh really operating clinical interventions. So many of us do what we call quai experimental or or natural experiments. That's essentially the kind of research that we do where we're trying to control for as many variables as possible. And we're trying to collect as much different types of data both quantitative and qualitative that help us to understand the impact of of the intervention that it's having on different aspects of what we call the biocschosocial body all aspects of the body. But these are still really really difficult experiments to run and that's why it's it's really really unfair that we're held to these standards. But I guess my stance has really been to try and push uh those funders and those people that value that kind of type of evidence to get them to understand why we need to think about different kinds of evidence and why we need to fund different kinds of research. So at the minute I'm working actually with the UK research and innovation uh council which is what funds huge amounts of our research in the UK. It's taken me five years, but I've been um working with them on a new program, which is a 30 million pound research program. But it took a lot of convincing of me essentially talking like we're talking here to people who were used to funding for example very specific kinds of medical research, uh economic types of social research. Um but I think through having these conversations and really critically showcasing the kinds of activities and the kinds of experiences that participants have and actually hearing from participants and providers themselves. So showcasing evidence in a different kinds of way has I think started to help shift the dial. So we are in the UK seeing more research funding dedicated to this really important area of research. There's still a long way to go. We're still not getting lots of RCT type opportunities, but we are seeing opportunities for funding, particularly in the UK around green social prescribing um that are now we're seeing larger amounts of funding for this kind of research. Not nearly as much as we need, but we are starting to see the dial shift. So, so I hope that helps. And I think it's a really important question about insurance. We're starting to see insurers in the UK asking about social prescribing and thinking of it as as if it could be included in their portfolio of authors. >> Pier, did you want to jump in on that? >> Yeah, I was just to add because I really uh I'm I'm really pro research dot full stop. But I'm really pleased to hear you Helen said that we need to look at different kind of data, different ways to use data. uh and when I discuss with my politicians there's a okay we have been talking about evidence for so long time now we know there are so many good studies we know this is working we could see it when we visit uh the initiative so just continue just stop focusing on that we need to have this uh evidence in every step we take and another fact uh maybe don't say too loud when you leave today is that in the Danish healthcare system we only have evidence for 10 to 15% of what we do in our healthare system. The rest is something we think is a good way to uh treat the patients. 10 to 15% of what we do we have evidence in the healthare system. So I think we will manage with what we already know also in this field. I I think I'm going to um I'm I'm going to nuance that a little bit. I think that 15 to 20% is around >> 10 to 15 >> oh 10 to 15 um% is around RCT or gold standard level um evidence I think uh but when people in emergency settings when doctors have to respond um it's not always a question of uh uh of being able to pick something that has RCT level um evidence. So I I think it's a really important distinction that there's a huge part of what happens in in medical um um spaces across the world that is not quote unquote RCT gold standard level um evidence. >> In I also wanted to add a bit of rock and roll comment in from our municipality. Nobody ever asked us for evidence and uh actually um we had two universities in the project working on evidence and the results were sometimes confusing. Uh in some uh aspects the well-being was decreasing and not improving and nobody cared. uh none of the referral channels or decision makers uh were started questioning the program because in those very local small settings it was clear that it made positive difference because people um from those so-called underrepresented groups they started requesting this um service they they wanted to be in the program those who participated in first pilots were constantly asking can we get uh again in into the program and referrals were reporting that these people are returning to job, they they feel better, they use less medication. Uh so nobody asked for scientific data and uh those questions at least in our context appeared only when we went to ministries and tried to put it on the national agenda. Then we uh there is this debate on a big pilot national pilot with locally relevant data. But I'm wondering maybe sometimes really it it uh it's worth starting small and really making obvious change for for real people and then this um um good news is spreading as uh word of how do you call that word of mouth. M so maybe just to go back to our our original question. First of all, fantastic project really would be delighted to hear more about it um and how you go because insurers are an important part of this journey for a large part of the European healthcare um kind of experience. Um but also don't necessarily expect a certain type of audience. I think the insurers themselves might be much more forthcoming, much more interested in the space than you perhaps anticipate and the conversations might not be as challenging as you think they they might be. So, in the same way, we're hoping for openness amongst them, be open yourselves about the kind of conversations that that you might have. Anyone else? Uh any other comments or um we've got one hand here and we've got another over there. Maybe we'll since the mic is already over there, we'll we'll uh go to the gentleman in the gray sweater. if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself briefly. >> Yeah. Hi, my name is Jacob. I'm head of secretariat at the Danish Cultural Association. We have a very uh nice and strong partnership with uh the central region in Denmark and Pia and her her people regarding the National Alliance on Culture and and Health. And one of the things I just wanted uh to hear your reflections about is um the fact that uh one of the reasons why these partnerships are hard is because you have at least in most European countries a public health care system that from the outside might seem as a mastadon like this big uh comp complex uh system that is very centralized and and organized where where when you look at the cultural sector you have the exact opposite uh where you often see that each cultural institutions be it a museum or theaters or libraries are sort of their own island uh building projects and and and managing uh what their their what they do. Uh so this uh creates some challenges regarding building actual ecosystems and strong partnerships especially when you want to address the the point that that Pia was making about building building political momentum uh because partnerships are not just about the patient or the citizen. They are also about having a strong united voice uh uh towards the the politicians. uh and what I wanted to hear your reflections uh about is just how to in general address uh this issue but also the value that we might be missing focusing this is of course I recognize a a museum's organizations uh conference but I know pier that you've been working uh building alliances between all sort of Shangra and cultural institutions and I think there is a a missed value when we actually talked together um on different cultural sectors, different parts of the cultural sector, something magic happened uh because they can actually learn a lot from each other. And in in the central region region of Denmark, you are the one building this conversation, but in other places uh there's not a central region that owns this theme. So that that conversation has to be built different. Uh so could you just elaborate a bit on that? >> Great question or great sets of questions. I feel is a complex uh um set of questions. I would say if I if I if I may just kind of respond, are you from the cultural space, the culture sector? Yeah. So I think uh um your sense of the um public health space being a kind of massive centralized slightly intractable confusing space is probably because you're not so in it. From my side, who is who is in that space? I look at the culture space and think, "Oh my goodness, how uh how non-entralized uh and confusing and uh so part of it is about those bridges, right? Connecting those bridges and walking over those bridges and experiencing the language, the kind of the the culture, the the the spaces from from the inside. But but I think that the question was to you Pier and essentially about your success in in bringing those spaces together and maybe with some reflections about you know lessons learned or or tips and tricks for for for others who'd like to do the same. >> Well the thing one of the main main things is again that we know that from our side in the region we cannot solve uh all our challenges ourselves. So we always need to open our hospital doors and ask uh the cultural life, the uh technology sector uh all different kinds of ecosystem which is surrounding us. Uh but that's not uh that's also new for the regions to just open the doors and let other uh partners inside our walls. uh but I think it's a it's a mindset that has been we been pushing forward in in our region for the last many uh years that we need to open more up because we can see the value of bringing new perspectives to the table. Uh and uh this uh intervention and this area is also born and raised in in the region where we uh only work with development and not in our uh operation field in the hospitals. So our mindset in uh in regional development is also different. Uh so we're trying to take this culture with us into the hospitals uh and to uh make our hospitals see that if they go out open the doors and get new voices inside they will get much more uh information they get much better solutions. >> Uh so I think it's that's a part but I think it's really important in these conversations. I remember when we built hearts, we had uh this workshop where we had to say okay, what do uh what do we uh bring to the table and what do we what are we looking for in the other stakeholders? So try to see to to do this puzzle to see what our what is our different interest and where do we have some common goals. uh to so to to do this um puzzle first is is really important and by the end of the day we all wanted to uh do a change and do a different for people in our society. We everybody wants to work with quality in what we do. Uh so this is uh this is some of the things that brought us together and if you just find these four or five uh components that bring us together then it's then you start the first part of being uh partners. The other thing that that I feel like I I've heard from all three of you is that in in all in each of your countries there's an attempt um or in fact in some ca in in the UK this has already happened of of creating an institute a space at a at a national level that tries to have a foot in either camp right uh I understand pier that that's kind of a process that's happening now in in in Denmark and uh and Helen I wonder if you can say a little bit more about the the national center for creative creative health um that I think has that position, right? It it is literally something that spans the two worlds. >> It is exactly that. I mean, a really great question again because um I think what we what we can see is that both of those ecosystems are equally intractable to the other. So what we know from health is that there is a huge uh ambition and desire to recognize the value that community organizations assets uh have but that they as you as you say Neils that is really it's such a huge ecosystem they all operate differently they have different sizes it's not clear how what the services are that they're offering for communities likewise for the for people in the community at the creative and cultural community sector accessing and understanding that health system is really complicated. So that's really why we set up a national center for creative health was to try and bridge that gap and those roles that I talked about the creative health associates are exactly that at a local and and regional level and their job is um to bridge that gap and help understand what each of those parts of the ecosystem want from the other and to build and maintain and develop those partnerships. But the the question uh that was asked by by that gentleman also made a really good point about collaboration across cultural organizations and I'm not sure if it's the same uh across other cultural organizations but typically in museums across the world we tend to be quite siloed. we tend to do our own work, do our outreach work with a particular audience. And I think there is huge benefit in a lot of the work that we've done is collaborating across cultural organizations to develop a coherent offer is actually also really cost-effective and less resource inensive. So instead of for example offering a weekly activity from one museum, perhaps there could be a local offer that coordinates activities where each week there's a different offer from a different organization. Um, and that's what this idea of a kind of local and regional connector role can offer. And we're seeing increasing benefits for that kind of collaboration across and within the cultural sector, which is hugely beneficial, but again does require resource. And at the minute in the UK, that resource for those connector roles still comes from the arts sector. It comes from the arts council. And we're still some of the health authorities are starting to provide financial support for that but still it comes from the art sector and I think that is a shift that we still need to have. >> Thank you. Yeah, >> I would just like to add that the um EU OMC group report is also suggesting the same thing. First of all on EU level creating a focal point that would be responsible for this cross- sector collaboration and also suggesting that member states do the same. And I think it's really uh indicating that it's not enough that the two sectors are ready to collaborate. They are so different and we often speak of having different languages, a different everything. So it's recognized that we need like a third space uh for these two planets to to meet and and to create like uh yeah uh a new platform collaboration of for collaboration starting with strategy but also um administration and management. So, we've mentioned the OMC report a couple of times, open method of coordination. Um, again, I' I'd then encourage you to have a a look at that report. It was published a couple of weeks ago. Um, and it is a is a kind of call to arms for both sectors to work together and provides a little bit of background and inspiration about how that might happen both at the European Commission level, but then also at the at the national level. I think Julia, you had a um a question. Um, over to you. >> Hello everybody. Um, Julia from Nemo. Um, yes, I had a question, but it was partly uh responded to uh in the long conversations. I did want to ask Pia based on your experience uh what you think are the basic ingredients for say replicable frameworks that we can use because we've seen a million good projects but uh we want to go beyond project tasers as you uh said already but I'm going to slightly alter my question because I think we have touched upon that already. So very concretely you have many museums here and a lot of them are museum umbrella organizations. So the sector organizations that speak for the museums in their country, what would you suggest museums to do in order to make them more visible or to bring them into the dialogue as allies in for the healthcare system? >> That that's a great question that I can literally just throw out at um at each one of our panel members. So Inga, I'll I'll start with you. Well, as uh I said, we had a couple of weeks ago a coach and health conference in Latvia and that was one of the core questions for the final panel asking this to practitioners, to policy makers and to researchers and they agreed on one answer and they said that first step is coordination having someone uh an organization or a person taking that task because it will be it will take long. It will be a long process and uh uh somebody has to commit to it and I think it same applies to museums. If you want to be part of the game, we have to be part of this coordination process that brings together the two sectors and and look and is looking for a place for for each um actor. >> In the wonderful WHO language, we call this a focal point. So having a focal point, I guess is what you're saying at an institution that is looking at uh the health and wellbeing impact. >> True. That was the idea behind the that we have just founded. >> Pia, >> yeah, I think that firstly I would recommend that uh as a museum you reflect what is our goal, why do we want to enter this uh this arena? What value can we bring in? What is it? What is our strategy? And and uh why do we specifically want to act with this population for example? So that you have uh been doing some homework uh in your own organization. Uh and then next I think in for us we we um we do some calls on new initiatives uh where we want uh uh culture actors to just find a hospital to knock on the door and say we would like to uh know you better. We would like to collaborate. So that's one way just to knock on the doors and start to um to take the challenge and then of course it's easier when you have somebody who's bridging like we have in here in our region where we have a core team who works in this field but I think it's important that you you more just uh go into the healthare system and and say we would like to collaborate but not come with the solution in the beginning and I hope that other healthare systems around Europe is not just closed on what they would like to ask, but I'm more uh willing to go into collaboration and go into some uh co-creating together instead. >> Helen, what about you? What is your recommendation to museums? >> Yeah, Pier and have made such brilliant points. Um I guess just to add that um what we have found at a local level for an individual organization as Pier said just reaching out to local health or care partners and you know inviting them into the space one of the greatest assets that we have in museums is our wonderful spaces our staff and our collections and um being able to articulate that offer in a way that showcases how that supports community well-being. there's already a wealth of evidence that you can direct those people to, but inviting them into a space and really critically inviting them at a time when you've got participants who can talk about uh some of those outcomes. We've already talked about the health and well-being outputs. Um Ingram mentioned really important things that that matter to healthare and decision makers. Things like reductions in medication, reduction in in hospital visits, um less healthare utilization, getting people back to work. these are the kinds of outcomes, health and social outcomes that that those um individuals and professionals are looking for. So if we can articulate our work in that way, I think that's really important. I think um the question also related to um museum kind of sector support organizations or umbrella organizations and we have found the culture health and wellbeing alliance in that space has been really really beneficial as having a kind of national advocacy role to bringing together the evidence base the resources supporting that sector and they they're hugely respected across the health care sector in the UK. So I think those organizations also have a role to play in supporting that advocacy and supporting that partnership working and and upskilling our knowledge around what do we mean by articulating our contributions to health and well-being. >> Thank you Helen. Did you want to come in on that just briefly? >> Just one more very simple idea uh inviting the health partners to museums to experience the activities themselves. That in our case was really uh changemaking. maybe not as the first step but as a second one and then it answers many questions. >> Yeah, I would also say uh repeat a point that Helen made a little earlier. It's one that we included in our 2019 report which is a very basic recommendation to museums to just consider the health impact that they can have the health and well-being impact that they that they can have. I mean for in many cases uh I know this museum is is uh sorry this uh conference is making that clearer but I think in many cases that's still a bit of an unknown. the language is still unknown, the concepts are still unknown and just familiarizing um oneselves with that and re recognizing that it can be a part of the strategic work that a museum does is a is I think a really important first step. I'm a little bit uh we're we're beginning to run out of time, so I think I'm I'm going to take one quick question and and uh we'll uh um try to quickly uh answer it and then I think we'll we'll have to wrap up. But I'm glad we got a question from this side of the room. I was beginning to worry that uh I was too focused on my right. Please. >> Uh hello everyone. I'm a Valina from Ber City Museum and I have this maybe naive yet a bit topic question or or the idea but what if instead of going to the ministries and our sectors of yeah ministry uh find this uh um business sectors who are also maybe even want to be social engaged and social responsible and try to convince them and maybe through that we will reach not only the needed the amount of money, but even our voices would be more heard because they have quite a huge marketing campaigns and so on. So, this was my maybe possible idea for us. >> I think it's a great it's a it's a great point. Um I'm not sure we have any experience um on our panel. Does anybody feel that they uh Yeah. Um Helen does. But just before I go there, I think it's part of the same question as bringing insurers um on board, bringing other kind of stakeholders in this space on board. So this is certainly not a exclusive conversation just to be had with the health sector. Um but it just happens to be the the predominant place where the conversation is taking place. But uh but Helen, maybe you have an example of a kind of business um collaboration in the space. Yeah, it's a really really fantastic point and it's something that in the UK we've been thinking more and more about. We've just done a really small pilot of working with businesses in in our local area here in London. Um and there are some examples of cultural organizations having very active partnerships with business. Um the best examples are the football clubs uh who who do have their own charities and funding support and they have started to collaborate with you know they're obviously hugely financially successful entities but starting to collaborate with local community organizations like libraries, museums and and other community organizations. But I think it's it's a really underexplored area. All businesses of course have a whole sector around corporate social responsibility and um we've started to speak a lot to businesses who are interested in thinking about what that CSR as it's called could mean by walking more closely with community organizations and community assets like museums. So a really fantastic point and I think definitely an area for future exploration. I think what we're interested in is what could a model for business for health partnership look like? We've called it the community diamond. Um and um yeah, really interested if anybody's got any examples of it, we'd we really love to hear more. >> Thank you, Helen. I think I'm going to draw ah what we've got very one. Of course, of course. How could I say no? >> Just very shortly, thank you for all the work that you've been doing opening the doors. I just wanted to share a very hopeful moment from the Netherlands. Last year they installed an uh endowed professor arts and health at the Edosmus health for school policy makers and management. And one of her first long-term things she put on an agenda is welcoming in health in the policy makers program for the policy makers of the future. really integrating the concept of health the what it will do in terms of cause but also for the health professionals how art can support them. So I thought it was a very uh hopeful step as well in terms of bridging those two worlds. I just wanted to quickly share that. >> Thank you very much. Um and I would say there are lots of hopeful moments in the last couple of years. this space has developed really rapidly and u and a lot of countries particularly in the European Union are are really thinking about how to bridge those uh um those sectors. So I'm going to wrap up now and if I if you wouldn't mind having uh the the final slide um on uh the screen and I'm going to ask for you all I don't I don't often do this but in this case I'm going to ask for you to take out your mobile phones because I'm going to put a QR code on the um on the projector in a moment. Um, and that's because at WH Europe, together with the J Arts and Health Lab, an organization that we work together closely with, we're beginning to uh um try and figure out how to write a policy brief in this space. Um, so as part of what we do at WHO Europe, we put out these policy briefs and we've uh done something on youth mental health. We've done something on climate in the environment. We've done something on forcibly displaced people. And it's a an opportunity for us to reach out directly to policy makers and decision makers in a particular space. However, up until now, we've kind of stayed in our lane and we've always talked to health spaces uh or health decision makers. Now we're keen to um take the learning that we have around um museums and health and speak to cultural policy makers and um and cultural practitioners and museums. So we feel like we need to collaborate even more than usual. We need to really reach out to the sector. So um I encourage you to fill in the form if you think this is a space that you might be interested in collaborating with. Um, obviously there's a lot of lot of you in the room and we won't be able to work with all of you, but we'll be able to keep all of you informed throughout this journey. So, if you're interested in in joining, maybe sign up. Um, if you're interested in just being informed, tick the box that you'd like to be informed, and we hope to hear from you and and hope to be in touch about this uh this project on our journey. So, that's it for now. Um, I wanted to thank our uh panelists, Helen, Ina, and Pia. I think you've done a wonderful job at kind of coming at this from different angles and and sharing with us uh your experience. It's been really eye opening also for me. I I find these uh these conversations incredibly helpful. And of course, I wanted to thank all of you not only for listening and paying attention today. Hopefully you have, but also for being interested for being interested in the space and for for the work that uh that you do. So, thank you so much. And I think there's some uh um housekeeping now that uh that about the next step. So, thank you very much.