National Ozone Garden Summer Workshop: Air Quality Experts Panel

I just asked Katie to go get me a clipboard so that I can um maybe take some notes as well because I have a lot to learn from this panel. Um as do I think we all. So this audience, you are all contributing to education and scientific understanding of air quality through the ozone gardens. Those gardens are making invisible pollutants visible and helping to connect communities with local air quality information and and getting communities thinking about air quality, which is really helpful. And so you're um these gardens, I feel like really serve as a bridge between science and public engagement, which is just a really invaluable tool. This panel is bringing together um experts who are working on air quality challenges through um research, monitoring, forecasting and policy. So we have somebody from very different we have people from all different sectors thinking about air quality here. So we're going to talk about what ozone is, how we measure and forecast it, how observations support public health and air quality um decision- making. So, we'll have a brief moderated discussion with panelists followed by dedicated time for audience questions and uh hopefully some conversation. I know you all have great questions and so I'm excited to hear what you are also interested in. So, I have five questions that I'm going to ask the panelists. Um, I'm really excited to hear their perspectives and to help connect the how the important education and community engagement work that you're doing with the um with the science that is happening. So, um, okay. So, I'm going to start by asking the panelists to each introduce themselves. Um, I'd love for you to tell us also what first sparked your interest in air quality and led to your current work. So, Emily. Hi everybody. I'm Emily Fischer. I'm a professor in the atmospheric science department at Colorado State University, which is up in Fort Collins. Um I started being interested in weather and air quality um as a high schooler. So I um didn't like smoking in the bathrooms and I I was 10 when Hurricane Bob hit. So I So there were two things that happened sort of early on and I just care very deeply about air quality. I don't know where it comes from. It's sort of an inherent value that clean air matters. Um but it started that's when I figured out that people had um careers in atmospheric science and I headed in that direction. Uh, I started working on ozone as an undergraduate at the University of British Columbia and um I my job was to support a grad student and make sure she didn't get lost in the woods actually looking for ozone damage plants there and and and and that led to um all sorts of things and now I um I run a lab that measures ozone and its precursors from uh airborne platforms um from mobile platforms and I my team will support um air quality measur measurements and field campaigns sort of wherever needed. >> Hello, my name is Dan Welsh. I am an air quality meteorologist for the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. Uh I my background is in weather. I got my undergraduate in master's degree in atmospheric science and really did not have much if any background in air quality whatsoever. When I finished grad school, I needed a job and there was a position open with CDPHE uh forecasting air quality in Colorado and uh I sort of stumbled into it by by no other reasoning. Um but I was born and raised in Fort Collins, Colorado. I've lived in Colorado my whole life. I'm raising my my family. I have two children. Um we're all, as many Coloradoatans are, big kind of outdoors people. We like hiking and camping and golfing and uh all things that uh tend to take us from the front range towards the west into the mountains which is where a lot of our ozone problems are. Uh and of course wildfire issues as well. Um so largely through my professional position but also just through my daily experience. Um, I really I don't enjoy air quality because sometimes that's a challenge, but uh I enjoy getting to play a role in raising awareness and observing and certainly helping folks to be uh knowledgeable and and alert to when those conditions exist. >> Hi everyone, I'm Kira Ran Moore and I'm with the Regional Air Quality Council. We are the lead air quality planning agency for the uh Denver metro northront range ozone nonattainment area. Uh, so the area within Colorado that has issues with our ozone levels being too high in the summers. Um, and I have worked in the environmental and social policy space for my entire career. Have always been passionate about that. Um, and I did a master's degree in public policy a few years ago and then moved to Colorado. And in thinking about what kind of work I wanted to do, um I felt like I don't know, air quality had just been coming up so much over the past several years in part due to wildfires in in my life seeing uh friends and family uh in the western half of the US affected and then I was living in Michigan at the time and and in 2023 the Canadian wildfires really affected us too. And so, yeah, it was just really top of mind for me. And and when I moved here and had the chance to dive into a slightly new area, but something that uh used all of my my skills and and knowledge, I was really excited about that. >> Hi everyone. I'm Gerald Actton. I'm currently a post-doctoral fellow here at NSF Encar in the atmospheric chemistry observations and modeling laboratory. I so I grew up in the Los Angeles basin east of LA, so inland. And I grew up in one of the worst ozone areas in the country, but I didn't think about it because I grew like it was just my everyday experience. I had asthma as a kid. And when I moved out of LA, I didn't anymore. I I'm not saying that like I think ozone obviously exacerbates uh breathing problems. And I think that was part of my lived experience growing up. Uh it wasn't until college that I learned more about air quality and in geography classes I took um and I uh started doing research first as an undergrad actually not looking at ozone on the ground but ozone up in the stratosphere um particularly how plants on the ground actually emit compounds that destroy ozone in the ozone layer. Um and then eventually I went to grad school in the Midwest. So I was in Wisconsin and actually my PhD uh dissertation was about the Canadian wildfires. So there's a cool connection right here. Um looking at how the Canadian wildfires actually impact the chemistry of ozone formation. So um that's what led me to here. I do modeling of atmospheric chemistry. Now >> wonderful. Thank you everyone. Um, so Emily, I'm going to direct this first question to you and I would love input from any of the remaining panelists after Emily answers. Um, if you have additional, uh, thoughts, but Emily, ground level ozone is called an invisible pollutant. Where does it come from and why can it be such a challenge to manage? So, ozone is a gas and it's clear, so that's why it's invisible. Uh, it's a secondary pollutant, which means we don't emit it. um it's formed in the atmosphere and the ingredients that are needed to form ozone close to the ground are nitrogen oxides which the source of those are vehicle emissions, power plants, any type of combustion particularly hot combustion. So power plants, vehicles, other natural sources are lightning. Um there's some emissions from soils and fire um forest fires are another small source. Um so that that um those pollutants mix with another [clears throat] class which are volatile organic compounds. It's anything that has a smell really. So um acetone is a VOCC. Um and VOCC's come from a variety of different sources and every area has a different mixture. um their ability to form ozone depends on sufficient light and some heat. And so that's why ozone is a summer air pollutant. And um controlling ozone depends on whether we're more sensitive to one or the other class of pollutants. And the formation of ozone is not linear which means a onetoone knob turning of either pollutant class won't necessarily um yield an immediate reduction in ozone. So the whole field of atmospheric chemistry um you know has has um some attachment into the ozone problem. Uh in the front range here there are a variety of we have a lot of traffic. So our primary NOx source is is vehicle emissions. There are some power plants right also. Um but we have a really diverse set of VOCC of VOCC's. For example, we have a large oil and gas industry that abuts the urban area. You have a lot of construction, so a lot of solvent use. You have vehicles which also emit VOCC's and you have plants which also emit VOCC's and can contribute. So it's tricky in that way and that's what makes it difficult. Big picture, climate change is also exacerbating the ozone issue through warmer temperatures. And um it's exacerbating the issue through increased wildfire smoke. And so not all wildfire smoke will exacerbate an urban ozone issue, but dilute smoke often does. Um and it will bring its ozone with it. And then it can also sort of, for lack of a better word, supercharge the chemistry in an area by adding more precursors. So all of those things make this pollutant particularly challenging. The eastern part of the US has made great strides in the ozone problem. The where we're really challenged with respect to ozone now is in the inner mountain west. That's where my team in particular is working these days. Um because that sort of we don't have a despite good effort concentrations are not going down. Helpful. It's very very helpful. I'm seeing a lot of the audience members. Um yeah. Does that does anybody want to add to that before I move on? No. Okay, Dan, I'm going to ask you the next question which is uh similar or I guess it follows on that theme which is ground level ozone is or sorry, Colorado faces some unique ozone challenges. What are the major factors affecting air pollution here and what makes addressing ozone particularly complex in our region? Uh Emily teed me up very well for the answer to this question. Um so in Colorado the statewide population is about six million people and somewhere between three and four million of those people live between the Denver metro area and the northern border of Colorado. So Denver, Boulder, Longmont, Fort Collins, Gley. Um we call it the northern Front Range region. Um, so the vast bulk of the urban density in Colorado lives in this area. [clears throat] So we obviously have a significant portion of vehicle traffic in in this area. Uh the urban density again, you know, from uh industrial emissions and and just sort of area emissions. Uh and then Edy also mentioned that we have a dense region of oil and gas extraction operations in the Denver Julesburg basin. So that's sort of uh to the northeast of the Denver metro area extending up into Wyoming. Um and so all of these contributing sources uh provide a wealth of the Knox and the VOCC's that Emily spoke of that act as precursors for ozone. Um but in addition to that uh as I'm sure you all have noted, Colorado has significant topography. Um so the the northern front range exists it's it's bounded on the north side by the Cheyenne Ridge. It's bounded on the south side by the Palmer Divide and of course to the west by the greater Rocky Mountains. Uh so that acts as kind of a bowl that the front range sits in. Um then our meteorology plays into into the scenario as well. Uh we often have flows from the south or the southeast that can often create sort of a cyclonic feature called the Denver cyclone. Uh this allows pollutants to pool and gather in the overnight periods coming from both traffic density urban emissions as well as the oil and gas operations. Uh and then as UPS slope flows draw that those emissions back across the Denver metro area and up against the Rocky Mountains. They cook in the sunlight, they cook in the summer heat and convert into ozone. Um so we have kind of a unique situation or or combination of factors that lead to our ozone issues. Um but some of the the challenges to addressing that um you know rely in in some of the political and legal factors of you know the activities that take place in this region uh as well as some of the social factors of um regional transportation uh public transportation even even within our our our municipalities and metropolitan areas um and in particular in my opinion the transit in between the two. So we have uh a significant portion of single occupant vehicles that transit the area. Uh even moving from place to place within uh a city or locality can be a challenge if you don't have your own vehicle. Um and so that increases the overall number of miles driven. Uh increases the dependency on uh some of the fossil fuels and those types of things. Um power generation is another another I think is uh a reasonably small percentage overall to our air quality issues but nonetheless it is a contributor. Um so it in a nutshell uh we have a number of contributing sources and a number of complicating factors that make uh addressing and uh reducing the ozone issue uh much more complicated than than a single short answer. >> Great. Yeah. I just want to follow up on one thing that you said and you or somebody else is welcome to answer this but I'm not sure that everybody here knows what an UPS slope event is and can you can you tell us more and h you know how how far do these go like how far up into the mountains? >> Absolutely. Uh I didn't want to launch immediately into the weeds but um when sunlight so to a large degree the sun doesn't heat the atmosphere it heats the ground and the ground heats the atmosphere. Uh when you have sloping terrain such as we have here in the Rocky Mountains, um on a sloping terrain, the sunlight hits the ground and it attempts to go directly vertically, but there is cooler air above that which is more dense. The same thing is happening just uphill from there. And so the UPS slope flow tends to follow the ground. Um it's a little easier to think of with a drainage flow. The the same but opposite happens overnight. the air cools and it flows downhill like water would. Uh it's motivated by a separate process, but the exact opposite happens during the day. So, uh warming air on sloping terrain tends to follow an uphill motion. So, that draws air from the east uphill into the Rocky Mountains. Uh and in the Colorado region, [clears throat] we see it extend several to many miles into the mountains. Um we often have ozone exceeded in Evergreen, Colorado and in Blackhawk, Colorado, which are >> National Park, >> Rocky Mountain National Park. Um which are I don't know the exact distances, but I would say 30 to 40 miles removed from the metropolitan areas from which they are receiving emissions. So uh it's not an insignificant uh distance that these emissions and and the air quality can uh travel. We I'll I'll know too occasionally we see exceedences in Colorado Springs which is a good 60 miles south of Denver. >> Yeah. >> And often that is influenced by the Denver metro emissions. So >> the Palmer device >> it's a yeah it's a it's a regional issue. That's that's part of the reason that air quality I think >> should be such a a uh you know broad-ranging consideration is it's not just where the emissions are coming from. It's not just where the emissions are received and the pollution is noticed. It it knows no boundaries. So it it will move to another area where it's still just as much of a public health concern uh regardless of where it's coming from. >> Right. And and part of the reason it can move so well is because it's not a direct source emission rate. It's >> precisely >> being created as Emily told us about earlier. >> Um okay, next question. Gerald, I'm going to direct this one at you. Many of the people in this room contribute to ozone research through their bioindicator gardens. How did those observations fit into the broader toolkit that scientists use to monitor and understand ozone, including groundbased instruments, models, and satellites like Tempo? >> Yeah, thanks for that question. Uh, yeah, so within the atmospheric chemistry community, we have what we like to call the integrated observing system for air quality research. Um and the the main tool the the gold standard are the ground monitors that a lot of us uh are probably aware of that are run uh by local states and municipalities but are reported to the US EPA. Um and these are really expensive instruments um that report ground level ozone uh concentrations and that's what we see on like air now if you've ever used the website or on the app. Um so there those are the gold standard measurements of ozone. um but they're you know sparsely placed and so there's gaps in between where we may not actually know what the ozone concentrations are. Uh we also have satellite data. Um so there's satellites orbiting earth right now um that can measure uh vertical column density. So how much different uh air pollutants are in a column. So it doesn't measure directly the surface but it can kind of tell us maybe there are emissions of certain pollutants in certain areas that are within the atmospheric column. Um and so there's there's two types of uh satellite instruments. Um there's the first kind is called polar orbiting. So they they orbit around the Earth every day and they look at every spot on Earth every day. Um but only at the same time every day uh usually around 1 1:00 noon to 1:00. So it only observes pollution at one time per day on every spot on Earth. But then there's also another kind called geostationary satellites that stay over one spot on earth and so it can take hourly measurements uh which are great and tempo is the first uh geostationary satellite that measures atmospheric composition from space over North America and so it's a revol revolutionary instrument that um will advance our science for years to come. Um and then what I do is I use models which is also part of our observing system. Um so we use computer simulations of the earth's atmosphere uh to study both past events try to understand the meteorology and the chemistry that happened to produce certain events like uh the impacts of wildfires for example. Um but they can also be run in a forecasting mode um to predict the future so that we can warn the public about you know potential um air quality levels in the future. That's what I have to add. Great. Thank you. Um, does anybody else from the panel want to add? >> Want to reiterate [clears throat] some of what Gerald said is is I think that um in particular tempo um and modeling can really assist with assessing where air quality issues are. uh and that can help to inform the monitoring network that connects sort of those remote sensing observations and the projected observations and expectations to what's actually happening on the ground. Uh and all of that is necessary to truly address like the extent and the the severity of air quality issues. Um of course environmental impacts come into play as well, but a lot of this gets motivated by the presence or the impact that it has on human health. Um, and without sort of the the synergy and the interplay between all three of those important pieces, um, it it makes it very difficult to really know the ground truth of what is taking place. >> Yeah, very much so. Do you want to talk about your flights at all? >> Um, so ozone and the scale of things in atmospheric chemistry is relatively easy to measure. Absorbs light at a known wavelength. We can do it. Um and so the ozone monitoring network um is relatively dense maybe when you compare it to other its precursor pollutants. So while the work that you're doing and the work that the state and local monitoring agencies are doing might map the extent of the poll the pollution they don't always help us understand oh that's the knob we need to turn to fix that. And so, um, part of what, um, the facilities here at ENCAR and the facilities that we have at at CSU and other universities that have large atmospheric chemistry programs, um, those are used to help troubleshoot. And so what we'll do is come, we'll put, um, instrumentation to measure the precursors on a mobile facility. So, we did that in the Front Range last year on a a van and drove around. This summer, we're working in Salt Lake City on a small aircraft and flying around. Um, and so we'll use that to help the local uh measurements to help interpret things. So, so we'll do a a really careful study of what's uh all the precursors get away from the surface because the air is constantly mixing, right? So, the ozone could be made above and but move down, right? Or vice versa. So, we'll do that and we'll do that with mobile observations to attribute things and we do that what we call sort of field intensive. So we'll go for six to eight weeks during the ozone season and um and try to lock in what's what's happening with respect to the ingredients not just you know the cupcake. [laughter] So we we diagnose the ingredients in addition to the the baked good that make sense which is a really important part of understanding ozone um and and how to address the problem. Thank you. Uh, okay. Cara, I'm gonna address this last question to um that I have before we we go to audience questions to you. How do ozone measurements and scientific research translate into practical decisions such as air quality forecasts, public health advisories, and policy actions? >> Yeah. So maybe I'll just start with what Emily was saying and say that we were a partner on that study that they did in the Front Range last year because we think that that data is really valuable for us to have in order to decide what policy actions we should be taking. Make sure that our our models are as accurate as they can be based on the current data and information that we have available as well. Um because we use those models um to do a lot and they make a lot of assumptions for us. Um, yeah, I'm going to consult my notes because there's a lot of pieces to that question [laughter] and make sure I don't miss anything. But yeah, we use monitoring and modeling data um very frequently in our work. Um, we rely on forecasts from the state um in order to help us decide when we need to send out air quality alerts to let people know that the ozone levels may be bad uh the next day. And so that helps people know that they what they can do to protect their own health. Um, usually that means [clears throat] not exercising outdoors, especially in the middle of the day and and just being careful about uh that kind of exertion that can can have negative health impacts when ozone levels are high. Um, and then also helping people think about what um individual actions they could be taking to help reduce their impacts on ozone levels. Um, and so the forecasts really help us think about when we want to be messaging that, how to target our messaging, letting people know, oh, this is also related to wildfires today, for example. Um, and then the monitoring information helps us understand how close we are to reaching ozone attainment, um, or how far away. And therefore uh looking at that data and the trends over time in that data helps us think about are the uh emission reduction strategies that we're putting in place the different policy measures are they having the impacts that we want at the levels that we want is there more that we need to do in order to to make that difference. Um, and then through modeling and research, we can really improve what our understanding is of how ozone levels respond to various strategies to reduce precursor emissions. So again, as Emily was talking about, it's it can be really complicated to understand what the changes in NOx and VOCC levels, how that then impacts ozone levels. And so the more information we have on that, the better. There's also as I mentioned a lot of assumptions that we make about what um emissions are happening. We have in some sectors like the oil and gas sector for example we have quite a bit of good data local data about um what levels are being emitted. Um in some sectors like the lawn and garden sector which is is another big contributor to ozone here on the front range. We don't really know. We're using data that comes from the federal level that EPA um has projected for us. um but we don't have that local information and so any additional data that we can get that helps us understand yeah where the problem is really coming from and therefore where we can direct our actions is is really helpful. Um so yeah we we can target our policy recommendations and actions to have the uh the greatest impact when we have more [snorts] more monitoring data more uh research available to us. >> Wonderful. Thank you. Does anybody have anything that they want to add? Okay, I'm going to open the floor to questions from the audience. I hope you've all been thinking of your questions. Um, [clears throat] can I I mean I have a lot more if if the audience doesn't have any, but I think we are going to use a mic here so everyone can hear. >> Um, yeah, thank you all so much. I feel like I should know this, but what forecast models can the public use to look at ozone? I know for smoke there's the herm smoke model, but um I guess I'm not familiar with any ozone ones. >> We look at well I will acknowledge here that in Colorado we are pretty spoiled. We have uh a lot of support and infrastructure, a lot of research taking place at CU Boulder, of course here at ENCAR, at CSU um and we have pretty good support from the state as well. So we may have things that are available here that might not be available everywhere. Um but for chemical transport modeling we typically that are publicly available. Uh we typically look at warf chem which is run out of I think that's run out of encar as well which recently has been down um but through the ACOM which is you're in ACOM correct? Right. So we're we're speaking to the source. Um those are the two primary um chemical transport models that we look at at least on a fine gridge scale. There is also the I believe it's the community model for air quality CMAC that is available through the National Weather Service. Uh if you go to weather.gov, there's a a little air quality tab right there on the main page uh that also provides um chemical speciated chemical forecasts. Um those are the three that kind of come to mind right off the bat for um particular pollution modeling. >> I'm going to just add something. Uh so if you have the Air Now app on your phone from the EPA which can tell you like real time monitoring data, there's also a tab where you can look at the forecast. Um and it'll color it'll color in contours. um you know according to the air quality index AQI so like there'll be yellow contours where ozone might be medium levels or moderate levels or orange where it's unhealthy for sensitive groups. So uh I don't know Airell is one of my favorite apps but it's probably because I'm an atmospheric chemist but I it's like I I yeah it's one way to look at forecast data. Yeah, you can look up the app. >> I would also just add that with the air now, it includes both particulates and ozone. And so a lot of times it'll show you the AQI, the air quality index, which is a little bit different because either of those can contribute to high AQI. So it doesn't if you have a high AQI, it doesn't necessarily mean it's high ozone. Um, and somebody else can add more. >> Yeah. Yeah. It includes both but you can also collect you can also select just ozone or just PM2.5 particullet. So you can look at them combined or separately. Yeah, I agree. And I one other note on some of the apps that I have encountered is that sometime some so air now is great because it includes both. There are some other um air quality apps that only include PM2.5 and they don't actually have the ozone information and those can be a little bit confusing and I feel like are not the best at least in my opinion. I I will acknowledge too that some of the the third-party apps um iPhones and and different weather apps uh can ingest publicly available information and then what they do with it is not certain to anyone. Um so I I won't endorse or criticize anyone in particular. just use a a healthy degree of caution if you're not using something that you know exactly what and where that data is coming from. >> So, you know, if you live in Colorado, you sign up for the um forecast from Dan and company. So, in most um it's not so obvious, but most places you can actually just go to your local agency and put your email in and you can get a daily digest of today and the forecast. And that's what I do for planning. So, last summer we worked with Dan to to do that. And right now, every day I get the update from the uh Utah DEEQ. So, >> Air Now will also send emails. >> Air now will also send emails. So there's there's a lot of ways, but Air Now is great, but if you're really into it, you can also get these these things. It's just you you you just have to find it for yourself. Sorry. So um I do a lot of work with kids. Um some little ones middle high school and usually when they discover a problem in their community, they want to do something about it. So, with ozone and air pollution and kids who don't have a choice over their transportation and mowing lawns and that kind of thing, um, what are some actions that you all might recommend that kids could maybe collectively take at a school site or within a district? >> I can take a first stab at this one. Um, one program that we have at the rack that I think is is really fun is um focused on anti- idling um at schools in particular because idling contributes to ozone levels. It's a really easy fix to have people turn their cars off. And so we've worked with schools in the past and just had them the kids help develop signage that they put up around um they develop um you knowformational materials that they can take home to their parents. Um and so yeah, using using them to spread the word about that type of um information I think um is a really cool opportunity. >> Just on the anti-idling to build on that. So um NO2 comes directly out of tailpipes. That is the ozone precursor. Basically when NO2 is fertilized you, um get it's a way to produce ozone in the troposphere. NO2 is a pollutant in itself. So it is also very harmful to uh respiratory systems particularly for kids. So anti-idling is a way to connect both another criteria air pollutant and ozone and a direct impact on the local air quality of the school. So it's a it's just a great suggestion but it's it's sort of twofold in terms of the benefits. There is a local benefit as even though ozone's a regional pollutant there's a direct benefit to the kids at that school. I I often it's like to use kids as the stepping stone to get to the parents that the kids can't necessarily make the choice about their method of transportation. Uh but if you get a child who's passionate about something, the parents usually hear about it repeatedly thereafter. Um so just sort of, you know, helping them to feel empowered and and knowledgeable and uh and passionate about these things I I find goes a long way. Yeah. And to say more generally, the rack has a program which my colleague Kelsey runs uh called simple steps better air and it's focused on what can individuals do and and as you're saying some of those are some of the steps are things that not kids can't necessarily do themselves but it's got really friendly like wildfire wildlife focused little graphics and things about how what are some of the steps that individuals can take and I think as Dan's saying like uh getting that information out to kids will only help spread it to others as well. Just one more thing that I think is important when working with kids to help them understand that people act on things they're talking about. So just keeping air quality as part of a conversation is a is has value um even if it doesn't feel direct because this is an US problem, right? And so so I think emphasizing that people do things when they things that are important to people they're talking about. And so keeping things as a conversation is is important also. if I could. Thank you. Um I'm a local legislator in Ohio and one of the things that I know that can happen is that when the public gets really wound up, right, they can go to the local legislators and say, "Hey, school board, we don't want our buses to be idling, when they're waiting for Johnny and Mary um at a [clears throat] swim meet or whatever it is." Then you can also go to your municipalities and say we don't want public works to be idling. The one that we have a challenge with are going to be our police departments because they're all trained to idle and their their car their vehicles that they're using are different vehicles. Even though they look the same as ours, they are created to idle. Um, so then you can go up into the state legislature and in Ohio, I work with Ohio EPA and they're the ones that have the anti- idling programs and there's all kinds of benefits because of regional funding because funding comes from feds to the states and the states then take it down to others. they call them metropolitan funding um areas and those areas can come up with their own um carrots for anti-funding I mean I'm sorry for anti- idling areas. So So I'm I'm working really really hard and I think others can too with their lobbyists um within the state and within the local area. Keep doing what you're doing >> and same to you. I I think that it it really requires um that interaction, you know, between researchers and policy makers and legislators and um everybody along the path that that from a local to a state to a federal level. Uh that interplay and that coordination is is really uh a necessary part of of moving the needle to towards uh improving air quality. >> Yeah. Thank thank you for your engagement. >> So my question is I guess could be addressed to a few of you but what are some of the either biggest misunderstandings or limitations in our in what we know about ozone chemistry or some of the atmospheric science that might play a role in ozone formation and in the models themselves. So I know of some of the climate models I often hear about cloud cover being something that's very hard to predict. So, I wonder if there's that might be part of it, but if there's certain things that are specific to ozone and pollutants. Um, so I I I'll give it a stab. Um, so the the models we use, um, like we were saying is there's a lot of assumptions in them, right? They're models and and as much as we try to get them to represent the real world, um, it's difficult. Um, so for example, we talked about like not knowing exactly what the emissions are coming out of everything. And so we m we put in a data set into our model that assumes what the emissions are from cars, from power plants, from plants themselves. And oftent times those are not correct. And so that will lead our models to um, you know, not always get the right uh, ozone levels um, correct. And so um because we use models to often understand the chemistry if those inputs are wrong right the chemistry will be slightly wrong in the outputs and things like that. Um and there yeah there are models also struggle to represent clouds because the the the resolution we run our models at um are often too coarse to to simulate all you know the smaller clouds and sunlight is important for ozone formation. So that that also biases our results. >> Yeah. A few other things. Um I'll give you an example from Salt Lake City. The air there pulls out over the Great Salt Lake and the albido of the lake is very different than the land. So it dramatically changes the light which is changing the chemistry. So that's a local example of an area of uncertainty. That's a challenge because the chemistry potentially is running a lot faster when the when the [laughter] air is over the water or over the sort of dry lake bed where the albido is is high. Um, we're really just learning over the last 5 to 10 years on the chemistry of wildfire smoke and the rate at which ozone is produced in wildfire smoke and um we're particularly bad at predicting where wildfire smoke will go because we're particularly bad at predicting what altitude it's going to inject into. And so, um, the the chemistry of wildfire smoke and how much additional ozone it's going to add when it arrives is another, um, sort of forefront of ozone uh, chemistry that we're still working through. Those are some big ones. Some other things that are are uncertain. Um as we do a better job decreasing nitrogen oxide emissions in places um then other like as we move to more electric vehicles and we clean up our power generation and things like that um then other sources start to matter suddenly. So maybe now soil matters a little bit more and you know so so there's things there's things like that. There's also still some radical chemistry that we're they're really hard to measure. There's some things that are pretty hard to measure. We're not we're not great at at measuring some of those radicals. It's really hard to get them inside to an instrument. So that also adds some some uncertainty. What else did I miss, Gerald? >> Yeah, just more about the like the new rising sources that are important. So for VOCC specifically, like there's been a more uh there's been more research recently into personal care products. So like you know, things you spray on yourself that is emerging as potentially an important contributor to ozone formation in cities. Yeah, you can measure rush hour, right? People get out of the shower and then they got their body spray on and their hair is drying and you can measure these personal care products and the contribution that they have to VOCC's overall in an urban airhed is still something the scientific community is um debating. So as atmospheric chemistry as we get better at measuring more things then we realize what we didn't understand is is sort of a theme also of this this problem. And it it's different every time. Um I I can't speak as as solidly from the the chemistry and the modeling aspect, but um in the case of wildfire smoke in the Cameron Peak fire that happened in 2023 2021 happened Cameron Peak. >> Oh, it was 2020. You're right. Thank you. It was it was a very dark time. Uh so it was just to the west of Fort Collins, Colorado. uh was dumping ash and soot all along the front range. We saw times of the suppression of ozone formation because the smoke column was so dense. So it was limiting the ultraviolet radiation coming in and therefore the ozone production. Uh then in the I believe it was 2023 with the significant Canadian wildfires we saw uh significant exacerbation of the ozone issues. And so it it matters very much you know where and how much and what the interplay between those factors are on the resulting uh ozone production and and concentrations that take place at a location. So uh again the difficulty of modeling the difficulty of understanding the formation uh and then the difficulty of it happening differently each time and place that it does uh all adds to the the uncertainty within trying to estimate things accurately. I was just going to add that, you know, we've talked about a lot of uncertainties here and another uncertainty that we see a lot at the rack is how do we communicate about all these uncertainties because people often see the numbers that come out of the models and they assume that those are facts and that is not the case. There's so much that we still don't know and that we're still figuring out. And so, uh, you know, I think sometimes people see those numbers and they think, well, it's not working what we're doing and we're like, well, we don't actually know that. you know, it might be we just uh it's it's really hard to to tell because of all of these things that we're still working on figuring out. Um and so yeah, that's that's just another challenge that we have in the air quality space. So, um we've been talking a lot about wildfire and wildfire smoke. Uh my background is in ecology and I studied restoration ecology in my undergrad. And so my question is, I've kind of been thinking about it the last few days, is whether anybody is looking at or has noticed a difference between your typical wildfire smoke and prescribed burns, whether prescribed burns are helping to reduce sort of that initial impact over time. >> Do you mean the difference in the smoke itself or the difference in uh like area burned and severity of wildfire? the difference in like the emissions. >> I I can't speak to that. [laughter] I I know that there is work and interest, but I don't know what to what extent. >> Yeah. And like I know obviously it's going to reduce like ground impact, but I am wondering if if there is a noticeability in like the the impacts over time for like what's actually going into the atmosphere. Like logically it seems like yes, but I'm just wondering if that's actually been looked at. That's sort of that's a big question. So, the joint fire sciences program has a solicitation right now to see if the scientific community can work on um the impact or the benefit of prescribed burning for um reducing wildfire smoke production. Um, when you think about prescribed burning versus wildfire smoke emissions, they occur at very different times of the year and under very different conditions, right? So, you don't light a prescribed fire right now in Colorado because that will turn into a wildfire, right? So, that that's happening in very different times of year and therefore the mixing, dilution, and uh chemistry is different of that smoke. Um, in general, prescribed fires are tend to be quite a bit smaller than wildfires. their injection heights tend to be lower um and there is often a large smoldering component. So that can change the chemistry of the smoke. There's actually a really um a study that's been going on led by the University of Montana um where they've been measuring emissions from prescribed fires over the last couple years. So while there were some recent field programs focused on wildfire smoke chemistry, we've got that pretty dialed I think for the West. Um, a lot of work is happening right now on the counter part emissions from prescribed fires. >> Some things will be higher, some things will be lower. there's a thousand things that are emitted. [laughter] >> I will note uh and I don't know that this directly applies to your question, but um prescribed fire provides a somewhat unique opportunity because it's a planned fire. Uh and so that I I know Tempo conducted some special operations over planned prescribed fire operations. I believe it was in the state of Georgia. Um but there there are this doesn't address the differences between prescribed fire and wildfire. Uh but the the differences in the expectation and the ability to respond to those events uh has a drastic difference that that provides again um opportunities to learn more about the overall outcomes uh as newer and better platforms come online and will help us ultimately to all understand the problem. uh and some create solutions hopefully. >> During uh most of our workshop, we've been talking about ground level ozone and how it's formed. My question is about the stratospheric ozone. I I assume it's the same chemical composition, but is it formed the same way as the ground level ozone? And also, do the two ever mix? And if so, is there any impact on ground level ozone if the stratospheric ozone mixes? So it's the same chemical. So three oxygens, but the chemistry that forms it is very different. So as you go up in the atmosphere up to the stratosphere, so the distance of the stratosphere maybe is like here to Longmont, the equivalent, right? It's not actually that far to the stratosphere. Um but it's it is far um mixing wise up into the atmosphere, but in in the um stratosphere, ozone is formed through what's called the Chapman cycle. So it and that begins with the photosis of oxygen and that happens at um very um high energy. It requires very high energy. So those are much shorter wavelengths. Um and there's a cycle that um basically recombines molecular and atomic oxygen to form ozone. So the chemistry that forms ozone in the stratosphere is quite different than the chemistry that forms ozone down here because the light is very different in the top of the atmosphere um versus down here. And so so that there's different chemistry. Um and what was your next question? Do they mix? >> Do they ever mix? And if so, what's the impact on ground ozone? >> Yeah. So ozone from the stratosphere can come down um to the lower atmosphere. It's um often called a stratospheric intrusion. that's the word that you'll hear. Those are most frequent in the springtime and so they don't typically contribute to our summer ozone problem. Um and so but you do see them in the spring. You do can detect them at mountaintop observatories and there's certain sort of weather patterns that that drive that. Um what's what you'll it's not usually too much of a mystery to atmospheric chemists when that happens because ozone down here will be um uh come along with a lot of other pollutants, right? And so you'll see this this mix of of urban mess with it and other photochemically um produced things secondary species come as well. When a stratospheric intrusion comes in, boy is that clean except for that ozone, right? and and so it's got really low carbon monoxide. It's it's it tends to be chemically quite obvious when that happens and it tends to be relatively short-lived. So you can't explain for a while um we thought the atmospheric chemistry community thought that some ozone was coming from the stratosphere and that was was but but that doesn't make any sense actually. You can't sustain a lot of the atmospheric chemistry with that uh magnitude. probably I have to remember the number but maybe less than 10% of our ozone down low would has a source in the stratosphere. As Emily notes it takes uh significant atmospheric processes working together to transport stratospheric ozone where we to where we see surface impacts. Um, so if you want additional insight, we can twice a year. >> Yeah, between two to five times a year. And I we watch for those here because we're at higher altitude. It's easier for that stratospheric ozone to reach the surface. Uh I suspect that that these the discontinuities the atmospheric conditions often come with like cold fronts um you know sort of areas where uh the stratosphere to strat troposphere transport is enabled by atmospheric conditions but then that ozone has to mix all the way to the surface and so I suspect that these things happen in many places of the mid- latatitudes but the ozone is not as likely to reach the surface at sea level as it is in higher elevations. locations as Emily sort of points out at mountaintop we see much higher impact than we do uh in the front range location or certainly uh places of lower altitude. Um, so to follow up on that, the o the ozone at ground level does its thing, moves around, causes some issues, and then what what is it? What is this its life span or because I'm assuming it's not just accumulating and staying forever. >> Cheryl, you want to talk about was on lifetime. You want me to do it? >> Uh, no. >> Okay. Um it it deposits to the ground. Yeah. So it ozone deposits. So um part of that uptake is into plants which you're you're helping with. [laughter] But it also it so that's one option. Um it also reacts with um some other um compounds. So it has a let's call it a chemical lifetime. Um it also can be photoolized. So it has a a lifetime against phtoalysis. So the sun will break it apart even down here. Um, and so there are a variety of ways that it um is destroyed. >> Just to add on, it also it gets transported away. So the wind will blow it away to other places. >> Yeah. >> And in the process it'll be destroyed through those processes. >> Yes. Yes. So it's moving. >> But for like how long? >> Oh, >> what is the average lifetime of an ozone molecule? I'm having trouble thinking of what that would be, how we would define that. Probably 3 weeks, something like that. I don't I don't know. I'm just trying to think about how molecule here how long it might last. [laughter] I don't know. Would you give a different lifetime over a lifetime? >> I was going to say a couple weeks. >> Couple weeks. But it it depends on like what other like you know >> average. >> Yeah, it it depends like if there's other things around that would react with it. It depends. But maybe on a global average. >> On a global average, that's probably it. But if the ozone molecule is really close to the ground, it has got a much shorter lifetime. It's going to >> it's going to touch the ground, >> touch the ground, gone, >> stick. >> Yeah. So, that's why I'm having a hard time answering that question because it depends where the ozone molecule is and what story line comes with that ozone molecule. [laughter] But, but yeah, those are three things that can happen to it. And it's while it's moving around and then eventually it's gone. >> Why don't I hand it back to you? [laughter] >> I am the keeper of the microphone. ask question. >> I actually have more of a public health question, so I'm not sure if you guys will have an answer, but I was wondering at higher elevations like in Colorado, even though you kind of adjust to it when you live here your whole life, do you find that people feel that ozone pollution more acutely because of where you live? Um, like does it make those respiratory issues more prominent? >> That is a difficult question to answer. Uh I will start by acknowledging that I am not a biologist. I am not a a medical doctor. Um and I think that there's sort of a but but in my exposure experience I think that there's a sort of a combination of issues. Um I guess first off ozone is not typically a huge issue in more remote areas. Uh the urban pollution certainly does find its way into the higher country and we we see sort of um you know the the upslope transport that we were talking about earlier. Uh and so that it is a consideration but on a typical day on a mountaintop ozone is not of of significant concentration. uh during the stratospheric intrusion events. Yes, we can see those higher concentrations when those are transported, but those are are relatively infrequent and uh you know, relatively short-lived as well. Uh certainly during those times, yes, it's probably a significant contributor, but in terms of public health, um I I think that some of like the respiratory stress that you would feel is in part due to limited atmosphere. Uh that's why, you know, altitude sickness is a very real concern. Um you know, certainly if you have predisposition to respiratory ailments, asthma, COPD, things of that nature. Um you're going to want to be continuously aware of what your oxygenation level is, what your level of exertion is. Uh heat stress of course comes into play. Um, and so I think some of those things that are separate but may have similar um, kind of impacts to air pollution exposure work into the into the equation along with what the ozone or the other air quality impacts may be that you're experiencing those difficulties. So, um I think that it certainly can be a compounding issue, but sort of um you know, may not be apples to apples, may not be a a direct comparison that it's it's sort of this compounding of separate but similar effects that somebody may be experiencing. Um again, that's my my generalized answer from a a not overly qualified perspective. >> Okay. Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say this is not a direct answer to your question, but we just at the rack um completed a health impacts report that we worked on with some researchers from the car Colorado School of Public Health looking at um the the public health impacts of ozone in our region. Um recognizing that we don't have great local data on that and so it doesn't compare it to other places, but uh if you could find data that does, you know, look at other locations, that could be an interesting place to to get some some idea of the answer to your question. just gonna say it's three it's 3:45. Um okay. [laughter] Uh and I I just quickly wanted to wrap up by saying we've learned from the panelists what ozone is, how it might be influenced by um various things like topography and wildfires um where to find trusted forecasts um and also what young kids can do. And so I wanted to just end by um first thanking the panelists. Thank you so much for [laughter] [applause] for taking the time to share this amazing really valuable information. But also I just wanted to ask each of you if you could just say like what is one key takeaway that you could leave the audience with for um what they should know about ozone air quality the role of community science like what would that be? um is I guess sort of quickly since we're just about out of time and I'll I'll just start with Emily since you're right here. >> Okay. Um I'm getting ready to teach ATS 621 just graduate atmospheric chemistry. This is how I motivate those students. I tell them because there's a WHO graph that shows this that if you eat well and you exercise and you lay off the drugs and you make other choices for your health, then the next thing that matters is your air quality. So if you So um it's really important that we talk about this issue that it's always at the forefront because it is a very very important public health issue um that people don't always have the personal control over. That's my thing. >> Thank you Dan. Uh there have been um surveys done particularly in near Colorado that ask people uh you know we're a big outdoor state. We're we're all about our our mountainous regions and skiing and hiking and all the things. And so if you have ask the average person on the street, what do you think about air quality in Colorado? They're like it's great. I love it because I can ride my bike and get outdoors and do all the things I love. and they may be totally oblivious or or uh not informed that we we have a significant number of days of poor air quality throughout the year. And so the point to me is that it starts with awareness. And if you don't even know that a problem exists, then how can you possibly understand the impacts uh or find any solutions to it? So, I think that some of the work that you all are doing here today is the exact place to start is just uh having conversations with your community about it, making it understandable, making it accessible, uh making the community feel like there's something that they can and should do to help improve the air quality in their own lo their location, their lives, their communities, um and and into society as a whole. So, um yeah. Yeah, I I totally agree with what's been said so far and and just to add to that, I think that um you know, we've talked a lot today about the uncertainties and what we don't know and about and the complexity of the science to do with ozone, but there is a lot that we do know about what you can do. There's a lot of ways to get involved and and a lot of of knowledge out there to take advantage of. And so the more that we all learn and and get involved, the more that we can work together on the individual level as well as on the policy level to combat this problem. >> Uh I'll say that uh the the same emission sources that contribute to air quality problems are also what's making the summer super hot. and that there's a co- benefit to us transitioning to uh you know using clean green energy and that uh you know this big process that'll take you know big societal change will have lots of benefits aside from air quality but also for uh for bigger issues. >> Sorry I was taking notes. >> Go ahead. So, just to make that clear, that means that when you act on climate change, you bring the air quality benefit to your community. >> Very, very true. There's >> nice work. >> Plenty of There's a lot of co- benefits. There's a lot of things that people can do. Um, yeah. Did you you want to add anything? You just >> Well, I I think that it's a complex issue that doesn't have a simple answer or or an immediate answer. Um, but there are things that you can do on an individual level that that can can contribute on a on a small scale. And um, man, some of the the the lofty answers or goals can be super challenging or feel overwhelming or feel um, you know, insurmountable. And so but but I think that that there's sort of the societal level that not waiting for regulation or policy or uh the demand if we all make choices and and that leads to sort of a societal shift towards sustainable energy generation towards uh clean transportation towards um you know just sustainability and and cleaner habits of living. Uh it it can make a significant change without the need for regulation and direct policy interaction. uh that is of course good and necessary and supportive of all of this. Uh but it doesn't have to come from your government or from um from some some prescriptive uh source. It it can come from individual choices and individual actions. >> Thank you so much. Individual actions and choices we can make we can make an impact and we get a double benefit of making our air quality better. Thank you so much to our panels. Um, I know the audience and and myself got a lot out of this conversation. So, thank you. [applause] >> Okay, everyone. That was awesome.