Narcissist's Frenemy: His/her Body (Psypedia Conference, Russia)

Today we're going to discuss the narcissist body. You remember from the previous lecture that I said that narcissists are incapable of perceiving other people as external objects. They create an internal representation of these other people and introject and they continue to interact with the internal representation not with the people out there. It's the same with the narcissist's body. The narcissist creates because the body is an external object. It's perceived by the narcissist as external. Narcissist looks at his hand, at his feet, at his it's out there. So the narcissist creates an internal representation of the body. Now healthy people do this as well. Healthy people have a map of the body and they have something called proprioception. They perceive the body. Healthy people also do this. But healthy people rarely confuse the internal map of the body with a real body. Only when they have severe accidents there is a confusion. And this creates the phenomenon of phantom limb. If you heard of it, the narcissist is in a con constant phantom state. The narcissist constantly confuses the map of the body with the body itself. And the narcissist relates only to the map as real. The body to a large extent is perceived as unreal. The narcissist weaponizes his or her body. Again, half of all narcissists are women. The narcissist weaponizes his or her body, instrumentalizes the body, uses the body as a kind of object to obtain narcissistic supply. Remember, everything the narcissist does is to obtain supply. The only reason for the narcissist existence, choices, decisions, actions, behaviors, is to obtain supply. More supply, only supply. So the narcissist sometimes uses the body to obtain supply. A narcissist who constantly uses the body and only the body to obtain narcissistic supply is a somatic narcissist. A narcissist who uses his intellect, his mind, his brain, his intelligence to obtain narcissistic supply is a cerebral narcissist. We're not going to deal with cerebral narcissist today mostly, but remember that somatic narcissist leverage the body to obtain narcissistic supply. So somatic narcissists would be heavily into sexual conquest. They would be into bodybuilding. They would be into martial arts. They would be into extreme endurance athletics and sports. They would display their body, exhibit it ostentatiously as some kind of treasure or a find in an excavation. They would use the body that way. The fixation on the body is a result of failure. In early childhood, these kind of narcissists mostly somatic narcissists have failed to other the body. They they have had an othering failure. Initially, when the child is born, when there's a newborn, as we all know, there is what used to be called the symbiotic phase. The child was one with the mother single organism. The child perceived the world through the mother. Mother was the world. The child was mother. The child was the world. There were no distinctions, no boundaries, no not no borders, nothing. And then gradually through the mother's gaze, the child learned to distinguish between me and not me. I and not I. Child learns to establish boundaries. These boundar behind these boundaries the self emerges constellates and integrates. As the self emerges and the boundaries rigidify the child begins to realize that there are other people. Lakan Jacqu Lakan did a lot of work on this. When this process fails, when the child fails to develop boundaries, when the self fails to integrate and constellate, the child does not have a sense of personal continuity. The child is diffused. It's like identity diffusion, identity disturbance. The child is like a cloud like mist all over the place molecules you know and consequently the child cannot distinguish the otherness of other people and we have an othering failure. The first victim of the othering failure is the body. We know from Ziggman Freud and Anna Freud and other child psychologists that the child explores the the newborn, the infant explores the body. They explore their fingers. They explore their toes. They explore their excretions. They explore they taste, they smell, they the body is the first frontier. The body is terra incognita. The body is the unknown continent. It's the first territory of exploration of the child and gradually the child begins to other the body. child begins to realize there's me and there is my body and my sense of me depends on my body of course but we are two different things and so this fails in narcissism pathological narcissism there's this failure and there is a fixation in the stage of the body there's a and that's why Freud suggested anal fixation and oral fixation there's a fixation in this early stage where the body the body is not athered is is not perceived as an external object but still is an internal object. The body in pathological narcissism is the world because the narcissist fa the the child failed failed to create boundaries failed to emerge and become the child remains 100% identified with a maternal figure and with his own or her own body and so the body and mother and the child they're one single unit unitary and it is the world, it is the universe. So the body becomes some kind of shrine, some kind of sacred ground and the source and the turf and the territory of fantasy. In other words, the body becomes a kind of parac paracosm paracosm, alternative reality, virtual reality, something unreal in many ways but indispensable in other ways. The place where the not the child which the child inhabits but but it's also the child. It is self-referential. It is a nesting nesting problem. It is it is regression at the infinitum and the body therefore acquires mythical religious proportions. Later on the body becomes the main source of narcissistic supply and of course at that point the body becomes a temple and the narcissist the somatic narcissist worships the body worships in the body worships at the body and asks other people demands from other people to do the same. Consequently, in pathological narcissism, we have the phenomenon of autoerotism. Autoerotism was first described who else by Freud and later by many others. Autoerotism is when the individual perceives his or her own body as a sexual object, as the only sexual object. When the individual is sexually aroused by their own bodies, not by the bodies of other people. So the individual makes love to himself. The individual has sex with herself. The individual catches a glimpse in the mirror and is sexually aroused. The body becomes a kind of object of narcissistic libido. The libidinal investment, the libidinal cexis is in the body. And this is a very interesting clinical feature in pathological narcissism because it means that narcissists are incapable of meaningfully interacting with other bodies except when and if these other bodies are aids to masturbation, props to masturbation. So the narcissistic libidinal landscape, the narcissist sex drive is highly autoerotic, highly self referential, totally self-contained and self-sufficient with people as toys or props. And these are the positive these are the aspects of the body corporeal aspects that are perceived as positive by the narcissist. The narcissist likes these aspects and invests in them emotionally, psychically cafeffected. The whole thing is cathected. It's cathexis. Those of you who are into psychoanalysis, there is cexis in this. There's emotional investment. So these are the positive positives. But at the same time, the nar the narcissist body is the narcissist's lover. But at the same time, the narcissist's body is the narcissist's worst enemy. In other words, what we what we come across here is ambivalence. The narcissist is ambivalent about his body. On the one hand, it's the seat of pleasure. It's a form of self- enhancement and self aggrandisement. It's perfect. It's arousing. It's a it's a s it's an engine of narcissistic supply. It's great. On the other hand, it's the seat of trauma. The body keeps the score. On the other hand, it is an enemy, a persary object because the body ages, the body becomes sick, the body becomes disabled, the body betrays the narcissist. So there is this ambivalence, lovehate relationship with the body. And one and and and the way many narcissists cope with this conflict, this dissonance, the way they cope with this innate irresolvable dissonance is they summatize they sumatize the dissonance. They have what Freud used to call conversion symptoms. They have somatoform disorders. They have for example a very flawed body image. It could be too positive or too negative. It's never real, never correct, never calibrated. And they objectify the body. The the body becomes fluid controlled. Maxing today we call it maxing. Plastic surgery is an example. Plastic surgery is a way to shape the body, sculpt the body, play with it like some kind of raw material or patty. And this restores the narcissist's sense of control over the body. If I can if I can shapeshift my body, if I can cut off some things, reshape some things other things, then I'm in charge. I'm the boss. And this is anxolytic. the somatization, the somatform disorders and the objectification of the body are all forms of anxolysis. They're all forms of reductions on of anxiety. I mentioned that the narcissist body is a major source of narcissistic supply or at least leads to narcissistic supply. The somatic narcissist uses his body to conquer uh sexual partners, sexual conquest, uses his body to show off muscles and tattoos. The body becomes a canvas, a work of art, in progress, in the making. And the body is a bait. The nar narcissist use the body to bait people to lure them into the fantasy and to obtain narcissistic supply. Sometimes the way the narcissist uses uses the body is not by uh elevating the body, decorating the body, nurturing the body, cultivating the body. Sometimes the narcissist uses the body or instrumentalizes the body as bait by flagagillating himself, mortifying himself. A pro-social narcissist would use the body as a form of sacrifice. He would sacrifice his body ostentatiously in public view. Remember Mahatma Gandhi? Mahatma Gandhi is an example. You know he used his body as a signaling mechanism. He was signaling with his body. He was going on long fuss. He was tormenting himself and so on. Do you remember Christian saints, you know, using their bodies in in the Shia the Shia variant of Islam? There is flagagillation, self flagagillation in public. These are all forms of pro-social signaling with a very pronounced narcissistic element. And with the narcissist, such such self-denying, self-negating, painful, sacrificial activities are also forms of using the body as a bait. The body, the body is used to signal. It is like a palimpest like you know a palimpest is a a piece of parchment that was used to write on and then the writing was scrubbed off and it was written again and so this is called a palimpist and so the body is a palimpist. It's like the body keeps not only the score of the trauma the body keeps the history of the person. It is written in the body. The body is the identity. Body is a kind of identity and because it's an internal object with narcissists narcissist don't perceive the body as external they perceive as internal it doesn't create any dissonance to say my body is my identity in healthy people would be very problematic but in narcissist it doesn't create any discomfort because it is an internal body of course my body is who I am I am my And so the way you dress, the way you you exercise, the the food you eat, healthy food, um all these bodybuilding, martial arts, endurance sports, swimming, I don't know, all these can become signaling mechanisms and signaling channels in the narcissist's relationship with the internal object that is his body and with the external environment that is supposed to provide supply because the nar the body is perceived as an internal object. The narcissist has a shared fantasy with the body. The concept of shared fantasy was first described by Sander Ser in 1989. and I extended its use and applied it to narcissism. The the narcissist has shared fantasies with objects in order to uphold and butress and inflated fantastic grandio counterfactual uh self-concept. In other words, the narcissist self-enhances only via a shared fantasy. And there are participants in the shed fantasy whose role is to enhance the narcissist. And so the body is an internal object exactly like the narcissist's spouse or children or intimate partner or colleague. All of them are internal objects. One of the internal objects is the body. And so the narcissist has a shared fantasy with these objects. Same with the body. He has a shared fantasy with the body. And like in every shared fantasy, the narcissist idealizes the body sometimes and devalues the body at other times. When the narcissist is terrified of the inexurable processes of aging, disease, disability, and death, the body is perceived as an enemy, a persary object, and the narcissist devalues the body, hates it, punishes it. When the body is perceived as successful at obtaining sexual partners or admiration and adulation or what have you, the body is idealized and there is this cycle of idealization devaluation. In some rare cases, the body is discarded. That is known as suicide. But that's very rare in pathological narcissism. The narcissist perceives the body as something that needs to be maintained, something that needs to be renovated, something that needs to be placated like an angry god. And all this is inside the narcissist. So consequently the narcissist I mean the logical result of this syllogism is the narcissist feels that he needs to be placated she needs to be maintained. He or she need to be renovated because of the identification with the body as an internal object. All body chores, body maintenance, body functions are all perceived not as external but as internal and 100% pertaining to the identity of the narcissist. In other words, these functions, these chores, I don't know, anything from healthy food to plastic surgery, anything from bodybuilding to athletics, any all these things, chasing after sexual partners, all this is perceived as an internal process, as an attempt to establish internal harmony instead of dissonance, consonants. And it's all consequently autoerotic. The libidonal investment is inwards never in narcissism never outwards. It's all it's a psychotic feature. Basically the clinical term is hyper reflexivity. I mentioned the ambivalence, the angst, the anxiogenic uh character of the body's decay, the body's dysfunction. It creates a lot of anxiety. And we have phenomenon such as phenomena such as hypochondriasis or illness anxiety disorder which are much more common among narcissists and are very often comorbid with pathological narcissism. One of the reasons is that we now know that pathological narcissism has a very pronounced obsessive compulsive aspect. This is known as anastia. Nar narcissists are unen ancastic. They they have obsession compulsion because they have obsessive an obsessive compulsive aspect. They're very prone to anxiety. And in the case of a somatic narcissist whose identity is his body, the anxiety would pertain to the body. The such an such a narcissist would engage in behavior that could become injurious, ritualistic and exercise regimen which would lead to to trauma, physical trauma. Uh the anenastia would push push the the obsession compulsion would push such a narcissist to test the limits to exceed previous accomplishments to prove to himself that his body is okay. never been finer, never been better, and he's in control of it. And this often leads to real damage. The body in pathological narcissism is an internal object. Consequently, the narcissist has to dissociate the external object, has to dissociate the real body. And this creates a phenomenon known as estrangement. The narcissist doesn't feel that he is fully in line with the body. He doesn't feel that his body is his fully like the body is some kind of piece of clothing that can be somehow exchanged or changed. The body is feel the body feels alien odd and strange out there. Not really not really the same as a Nazis. That's the external body, not the internal. The external body is a strange and narcissist consequently experience dissociative symptoms such as depersonalization, derealization and amnesia, which in my work amnesia is a form of estrangement from the body. Not the mind, but the body. We're not going to it right now. So how would the narcissist react to chronic disease, disability, uh injury? The first reaction would be schizotipal. The narcissist would engage in magical thinking. For example, he would deny the disease. He would refuse to take medication or any kind of treatment. He would push his body to prove to him or her that it's perfectly okay. The doctors are wrong. It would devalue the sources of the information. The doctors are wrong. They're stupid. They're not trained well. If there's a disability, the narcissist would get very angry at his external body. He would punish the external body. And it it involves a lot of narcissistic rage. The rage is perceived as a form of reassertion of control, a proof of omnipotence, the gods rage. The New Testament God rages all the time. To rage is to be divine. The schizotipal reaction coupled with the rage can do for a while. But reality is reality. It pushes back. It's uncompromising. It's harsh. And ultimately the Nazis has to accept that his or her body is compromised by age, by disease, by disability, by impending impending doom and gloom, death. It's inevitable. Even the most hardened narcissist whose fantasy defies all reality has to accept at some point that he can he cannot run as fast as he used to. He cannot make love as often as he did. Things have changed. And so then there's a third phase and that's a skit reaction. Narcissist, the somatic narcissist, isolates himself, constricts his life, avoids interactions, doesn't show his body in public anymore. He withdraws. He becomes avoidant. And then gradually there's a paranoid reaction. paranoid ideation that sets in involving what we call ideas of reference, referential ideation. People are mocking me. People hate me, hate the way I look. People are ridiculing my my age. People are um people engage in agism. They are discriminating against me and and so on. This is paranoid ideation sets in. And then the narcissist, the somatic narcissist becomes self-punitive and masoistic. He is punishing his body for having betrayed him. He engages in purging behaviors. He wants to become pure, ethereal, unreal in many ways. Want to get wants to get rid of this container. And there is this big sense, a sense of having been stabbed in the back, having been betrayed, having have been unjustly traumatized, a sense of injustice. And and this diffused, unfocused rage at something, at someone, at God, at the universe, at biology, at whatever. And some of these some of these narcissists, they become totally delusional. They believe they can find a way to live forever, to never age. They look for new substances. They they invest in research. They they're trying to delay death or deny it. They are they are they they they completely they become completely detached or divorced from reality. The develop absolute delusional disorder. And this is coupled with a growing sense of helplessness which is equally as usual with narcissists disproportional and exaggerated. This sense of helplessness is a recreation, a reenactment of the helplessness in early childhood and is therefore deeply traumatizing. The main effect involved is shame. thus becomes obsessed with shame, feels humiliated and he develops helplessness, this sense of helplessness as a way to regain control. He begins to use his helplessness, his disability, to manipulate other people. He begins to make demands, we call it control from the bottom. I'm an invalid. You owe me. I'm crippled. Serve me. I'm old. Respect me. They're beginning to use the defic deficiencies and degeneration of their bodies as a tool again to obtain supply to control their environment to guarantee favorable outcomes to become efficacious. It's the irony in narcissism. It's a very very um very flexible agile adaptation. And this leads of course to control freakery. If you can't control the external object that is your body that is closest to you, can you really control other external objects? Paranoia sets in as I mentioned and that leads to extreme obsession with control. This obsession obsession with control easily becomes sadism. And we have this kind of patient, the disabled, the invalid, the crippled, the sick, the chronically sick. They become tyrants, they become dictators, they become sadistic, they torture everyone around them, they manipulate, they humiliate, they become vicious. We all have such a relative, I'm sure. So this is the sequence in the case of disability and disease. And finally, I would like to mention that one of the safest ways to identify a narcissist without administering um complex set of narcissistic tests um is body postures. Narcissists have a series of body postures, a group of body postures which are strongly indicative of a narcissistic personality style and when all of them are together are strong strongly indicative of narcissistic personality disorder. We have the hypervigilant paranoid stunts, you know, looking around where's the danger lurking, who's going to betray me and so on. We have the pleading expectant posture, you know, I expect you to serve me. I expect you to give me narcissistic supply. I expect you to acknowledge my superiority. Please do. We have the dismissive, contemptuous posture. Who are you? You're stupid. You're ugly. You're not my level. I don't want to talk to you. You have the superior, boastful, that's Donald Trump kind, you know, in your face, defiant, reckless, and so on. You have the impatience, scornful posture. That's I don't have time for you. You're wasting my time. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm uh, you know, leave me alone. You have the membership gravitas posture. I'm a member of this club. I'm a member of this inroup. I should be respected and admired and adulated. Look at me. I mean, am I not an amazing I don't know what intellectual or politician or whatever. You have the converting empathic. That's a pro-social narcissist. It's a narcissist who ostentatiously and repeatedly emphasizes in your in your face like look how how generous I am. Look how kind I am. Look how compassionate and charitable and altruistic I am. Am I not amazing? Am I not morally superior? That's public facing. That's intended to elicit supply. It's it's a typical pro-social posture. And finally, we have the observer or detached post posture. I couldn't care less. I'm just observing. You're all funny. You're all comic. You're all tragic. You're all stupid. You're all entertainment to for me. If you see all these postures together, it's probably a narcissism. One question you asked previously which I failed to respond to. My bad. You asked about diagnosing narcissism. So we we have several psychological tests that we use. The narcissistic personality inventory is not intended to diagnose pathological narcissism. It's a common mistake made even by scholars. The NPI is intended to diagn to to diagnose in a way the existence of narcissistic traits not the same as the pathology. We have other tests for dark personalities but dark personalities like dark triad and dark tetran they have an element of they have a component of subclinical narcissism. Narcissism that cannot be diagnosed. We have tests like the PNI, the pathological narcissism inventory. That's a test for narcissistic personality disorder. We can use other standardized tests which are very powerful tests like the MMPI. It's a great test, my favorite by the way. So, we can use it, but it cannot it cannot tell you about the existence of a pathology. It can just map create a map of traits and trade domains and interactions and so on so forth. Here's the truth. We do not have we do not have an agreed upon rigorous test psychological test for pathological narcissism. And all the tests that exist rely on self-reporting by narcissists. Can you believe this nonsense? Narcissists are known to have a very complicated relationship with the truth. And when you test them, when you test people for narcissism, you ask them to be truthful. Great idea, I must say. It's not the same with borderline personality disorder where we have very powerful tests like the the ZAN, the Zen and so on. So um similarly we don't have any biomarkers genetic markers something objective which connects to NPD and definitely we don't have any proof of brain abnormalities never mind what kind of nonsense read online we don't have anything rigorous and serious connecting brain abnormalities to pathological narcissism finally there's a major problem we disagree In the profession, in academicians, we disagree. What constitute narcissistic personality disorder? And a vast majority of the practice, a vast majority of the field have reached a conclusion that there is no such thing as narcissistic personality disorder, which makes it a bit complicated to test for it. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, those of you who are who survived, I am at your disposal for questions. I'm your disposal to answer to question all your answers. Go ahead. >> Yes. Thank you so much, Sam. >> Thank you. >> I can tell you the chat is extremely heated. barely have time to collect the answers the questions. I'm sorry. >> I don't think you will have time to answer all of them. >> And that's okay. But we should be able to ask you a couple. >> So, is it characteristic for female narcissists to have an orgasmia? Uh because that would mean that they have to let go of control over their body. Both male and female narcissist experience orgasm. They are autoerotic in the sense that they are making love to their own bodies. But the process of making love, the sexual intercourse culminates with the same outcome, which is orgasm. On the very contrary, narcissists tend to place a lot of emphasis on orgasm. The somatic narcissist measures his success in how many times he has had orgasm and how many times he induced orgasm in his partner. He keeps a a track. He keeps track of it. There's an app, I assume. Similarly, orgasm would be perceived as the culmination of a self-enhancing process. I am so sexually attractive that I made myself come. I made myself experience orgasm. So no, there there's no no ground to to claim that uh because the orgasm is not perceived as a loss of control because the body is an internal object. The orgasm is perceived as narcistic supply. There's a big difference here. Okay. No boundaries between the external and the internal and perception of the body as an internal object. Is it only characteristic of narcissists or for other personality disorders as well? My impression is that many people with personality disorders have difficulties distinguishing the internal from the external. >> Well, I I can rely only on the literature. Um so we encounter this situation in in pathological narcissism to some extent in borderline personality organization and in psychotic disorders. These are the three families of mental health issues where there is a confusion not boundaries not an issue of boundaries. I mean it is an issue of boundaries but there is also an active confusion between internal and external. Even when the individual recognizes the externality and separateness of another person they would instantly internalize introject that other person and convert that other person into an internal object. It's a defense mechanism. It's a defense against separation insecurity abandonment anxiety. So in psychosis in psychotic disorders there is a confusion between external and internal objects. This is known as hyperreflexivity. It's when the the psychotic person uh believes that his internal objects are out there that are actually external. So a voice in the psychotic's mind would be perceived as a voice emanating from the outside. Someone talking to him, God. I don't know who. In the narcissist, it's the opposite. It's reverse. The narcissist would perceive something that really exists out there as non-existent, as a mere internal object. And again, the reason is to avoid abandonment, anxiety, and rejection. Uh with borderline personality disorder, it's a lot more complicated because the borderline um requires constant external regulation from a specific source. So whereas the narcissist has problems with object constancy, the narcissist cannot doesn't have doesn't experience the continuity of external objects. As far as a narcissist is concerned, external objects appear and disappear randomly like flashes in the pan. With the borderline, it's the opposite. The borderline does have a perception of external objects. But she cannot maintain an internal a stable a stable internal representation of these external objects. She has introject inconstancy not object inconstancy. When for example she separates from someone that someone ceases to exist in her mind it's like out of sight out of mind. Whereas with the narcissist the internal object is stable the external object is fleeting diffuse not real. So you see various situations all of them pseudocyscotic all of them involve the confusion between internal and external objects. And this is not a minor confusion. It's not it's not that uh you're confused for a minute. You know, some some voice in your head. You thought someone spoke to you, but they didn't speak to you. That's that's not the issue at all. This is lifelong permanent confusion between internal and external. You're right. Owing to a lack of developed boundaries in early childhood. Yes, I finished. We have just uh three minutes left, I think. Maybe four at most. We got loads of questions for you, Sam. I am at a loss as to what to choose. >> Okay, let me choose this one. What is a healthy attitude to one's body? We've been hearing so much about narcissists. Please help us ground ourselves back. What is a healthy attitude to one's body? >> It is always a problem. For example, if you get chronically sick and you're constantly in pain, but I mean serious pain, you you will begin to hate your body. You'll begin to resent it. You'll begin to wish to punish it somehow. And the extreme is of course suicide. So in extreme situations you end up in the same place the narcissist is. But with the narcissist is permanent. At least with the somatic narcissist also with the cerebral narcissist. The cerebral narcissist has rejected the body because cerebral narcissist says the my body is useless to obtain supply. I will use my mind. My mind is attractive. My mind is amazing. My mind is so I'll use my mind to obtain supply. My body is so they both are rejecting the body. In effect, the somatic narcissist is rejecting the body because the body is betraying him. And the cerebral narcissist has rejected the body because the body is not a good way to obtain supply. A healthy person also rejects the body sometimes. But it's rare. It's very rare. The healthy relationship with the body is to regard the body as a potential friend. Definitely a source of some elements of identity possibly um maybe grounds for entertainment, self entertainment and so on. So you know people who make tattoos and this kind of thing. Uh and of course the found the main way to experience the world. Your body is the bridge to the world. Everything you experience is via your body. You need to regard your body as you would for example an intimate partner. You would be forgiving to a large extent. You would be accepting to a large extent. You would allow your body to have a life of its own. Not subservient to you or your agenda. You would cultivate your your body and invest in it. You will uh use your body to access the world the same way we do in intimate relationships where our partner brings the world to us and we bring the world to our partner. We introduce the world into the relationship. In other words, think of your body as an intimate intimate partner whom you love and with whom you wish to have a very long fruitful happy balanced relationship. Simple as that. That way your body will always be an external object which is a healthy thing, not an internal one. The minute you internalize your body, for example, when you're very sick, you internalize your body as a persary object as an enemy, that's a pathology and it's a bad way to go. >> Yes. Thank you so much, Sam, for your lecture and your answers. All these hearts go to you. >> Thank you. >> You've told us so much and we badly want to hear even more. Unfortunately, we have to call it a day right now. Sam, I want to thank you as well. I can tell you that I've watched lots of your videos on YouTube. >> Thank you. >> And uh >> ah so you are you are the one >> you are the one who's watching my videos. All the thousands of views are mine. >> Yeah. >> So, thank you so much for sharing your vision, your perspective. >> It is indeed very important for us to hear from you about NPL and it difference from other personality disorders, NPD, I'm sorry. So, thank you very much, Sam. And we also wanted to thank the interpreter for his interpretation and his sense of humor. >> Thank you very much everybody. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm always at your disposal if you want to do something in the future. And I as well am thanking the interpreter and the wonderful audience. I've never received so many hearts in my life. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. >> Have a nice day there.